40k-lore-chat

[crisp heath]

Necrons, holding a human philosopher by his lapels: AM I ALIVE???

My point is, nurgle didn't wipe them out, subsume their mass, and make more nurglings. He kept them as they were, and just plagued the fuck out of them. Nurgle is called the Grandfather for a reason. Of all the chaos gods, he's the nicest and most caring to his followers, and his plagues are literal blessings in a way

[snow fern]

May be a meme, but I remember a Necron philosophizing all over a space marine it caught one time

[crisp heath]

We don't see it as such, because well, plague

[severe sandal]

“You think, therefore you are.”

“Thank you human.”

evaporates him atom by atom

[crisp heath]

But they do extend their lives and give them massive power

[arctic talon]

Average cryptek

[snow fern]

You got to remember though souls are a tangible observable thing in 40k

[severe sandal]

Necrons are wack

[snow fern]

I know some people prefer the assimilating Terminator rejects of yore, but I am glad Necrons got some character

[storm jungle]

Yeah uh

[arctic talon]

Necrons are cool as shit in their current form

[storm jungle]

no offense

[arctic talon]

Oldcron lore was lame as fuck

[storm jungle]

people that like oldcrons are stupid

[crisp heath]

Me too. I think the necrons currently are the best the necrons have ever been

[storm jungle]

[snow fern]

Lol

[storm jungle]

Like

imagine actually going

[crisp heath]

Their old lore was bland

[storm jungle]

"I like my faction when it had no character"

[arctic talon]

The C’tan had character 💀

[snow fern]

Tyrannid players be like

[arctic talon]

All 2 of them

[storm jungle]

oh yes

[crisp heath]

Shush tyranids are cool

[storm jungle]

all 2 of them

💀

[arctic talon]

Nids do have character tbf

They want to eat everything

[storm jungle]

LEL

[arctic talon]

And the hivemind is well

Cognizant

Also hive tyrants, lictors and some other morphs are technically individuals

It’s weird

[crisp heath]

I want more on the Hive mind. The few times it's come up in books has been pretty epic

[arctic talon]

The pov of the lictor is very cool imo

[storm jungle]

Also people that love Oldcrons for get like

• You can still make an Oldcron dynasty if you want
• The main necron armies are still literally silent-genocidal-terminator armies that are scary as shit.

[arctic talon]

In devastation of Baal

[snow fern]

I personally believe the Ogre Kingdoms do “Living Stomach”, better than the Tyrannids, though they aren’t a hive mind either

[arctic talon]

Tbh

[storm jungle]

Ogres are just based

[arctic talon]

What makes nids intresting is that

They’re a hyper adaptive purely biological species

[crisp heath]

Ogres are just better than everyone else it's not even a competition

[arctic talon]

True

And real

[dense salmon]

damn this update is kind of fat

i'm just now getting home

[storm jungle]

Lotsa content

[snow fern]

I like the “enlightened” assimilator style hivemind better personally, think Systemshock 2

[arctic talon]

The nids are assimilating everything tbf

It’s just that their stuff is good enough already

Generally speaking

[crisp heath]

No. What truly makes the tyranids interesting to me is purely their Hivemind. Because it's what allows all that hyper evolution and plans it. And it quite literally has been stated to be on the level of a God or some primordial being

[green loom]

This update is good af eating

AND

[snow fern]

Yah, but I mean like, if they leaned heavier into the Genestealer Cult side and less, mouth of teeth side

[green loom]

IT came when i had a GOOD Weeek

[arctic talon]

Well

Genestealer cults exist

[crisp heath]

Like, the Hivemind is terrifying and I need to know more

[arctic talon]

As their own faction

Let the nids be nids

They’re the “force of nature” faction

[crisp heath]

I just think people in 40k should suffer more, preferably by a wave of teeth and claws

[storm jungle]

I mean

they already do

[crisp heath]

@crisp heath lol based

Servitors have it too good, and tyranids want to fix that

[snow fern]

Is there anybody in 40k who isn’t explicitly suffering?

[storm jungle]

Uhhh

no i think

[grave sparrow]

orks

[storm jungle]

[crisp heath]

Trayzn?

[storm jungle]

Oh yeah Orks

Trazyn suffers too

[crisp heath]

Orks too def

[arctic talon]

He’s going insane

[snow fern]

Orks yah, that’s fair

[grave sparrow]

and nurgle worshippers/daemons

[crisp heath]

Trayzn is ultra-depressed

[snow fern]

I guess Old Bale eye died

[storm jungle]

Self-aware necron's big deal is that unless they have hobbies they will eventually go insane, its a good exploration of what immortality does to you.

[snow fern]

That’s suffering to them in a way

[crisp heath]

@arctic talon but is that like... suffering? Or is that just like, difficult for him lol

[snow fern]

They’re certainly a better written, immortality sucks trope

[storm jungle]

We appreciate life to a degree because most humans barely live to like 80-90 years.

[grave sparrow]

Plantary Nobility probably livin a gucchi life too

[arctic talon]

It’s suffering

[crisp heath]

Zhandrekh be like: my hobby is going insane

[arctic talon]

He’s quite depressed

[storm jungle]

to a Necron a century is like a fart in the wind

[arctic talon]

He keeps on collecting to keep himself going

Arguably speaking

He’s got the flayer virus

Or a serious case of disphorek going on

His obsession is how he can cope with it

[storm jungle]

I love how the disphorek is just body dysmorphia

[arctic talon]

Yeah

[storm jungle]

I have it and reading Twice Dead did a number on me

💀

[arctic talon]

💀

That’s rough

[crisp heath]

Ok, but like, out of all the necrons, Trayzn has the most fleshed out hobby?

[storm jungle]

Yeah

[storm jungle]

KINDA

[crisp heath]

My boy loves his collection

[storm jungle]

its a case of like how Necromunda is our best insight into a hiveworld

because it gets the msot lore

[grave sparrow]

we all love his collection ❤️

[dense salmon]

trazyn has the world's greatest menagerie

GALAXY'S*

he will also ocassionally release his pokemon

[crisp heath]

So like. He has an awesome hobby. A best friend mechanicus roommate

[dense salmon]

to help a faction

[grave sparrow]

i thought the admech was like an intern lol

[crisp heath]

Like... Trayzn can't be that bad off lol

[arctic talon]

“I told you not to refurbish the lictor” 💀

[storm jungle]

I love how the entire reason he was on Cadia was

• "I wanna see what being a hero is like"
• "I gotta keep my gallery safe"

FYI he was actually sticking around during the main battle

[green loom]

No that was the Tyrant

[storm jungle]

like uh

[crisp heath]

I loved this lolol

[storm jungle]

hes with his deathmark right

and they are both

lying down on a roof

and picking who to paralyze and steal

like its a fucking safari

[crisp heath]

Fr!!!! 🤣 🤣

[green loom]

The end bit is the best

[snow fern]

Looking at lobsters through the glass case

[storm jungle]

Fall of Cadia having Trazyn in general was great

[green loom]

"Random bullshit!!! GO!!!!!"

[crisp heath]

There's canonically a clip of Trazyn explaining the concept of a chicken sandwich in ork speak

[snow fern]

The 30k custodes there scaring the shit outa the csm

[arctic talon]

Oh you’re right

[green loom]

It was just one

And the way he died is hilarious

[snow fern]

Sure but if a caveman walking into the pub and asked to bum a cig, I’d be a little shook

[green loom]

The fkn

[arctic talon]

The heresy era ultramarines

From calth lol

[green loom]

Named Ultramarine gave Abby more of a fight than the Custard

[crisp heath]

@snow fern I wouldn't. He'd fit in fairly easy round where I live

Probably would just toss him the cig

[green loom]

But still nothing compared to Sven Plot Device

[snow fern]

Abbaddon is such a sore loser

[storm jungle]

tbf him throwing the blackstone fortress at Cadia was a very smart decision

the pylons were closing the Eye

there was literally no other option

[arctic talon]

Also it was disabled already

[crisp heath]

So. Theory question. Who believes in the Star Child theory, and can explain it? Because I've tried to get an idea from lore vids and it's confused me

[arctic talon]

The phalanx and space wolves did a number

[storm jungle]

Its canon again

[arctic talon]

It’s confirmed in end and the death part 2

It’s real again

[storm jungle]

also uh

[spare osprey]

I like Abby cause he has a cool council. Smart choices Y’know

[snow fern]

I think it’s supposed to be a shard of Big E’s compassion or something

[storm jungle]

Throne of Light confirmed it first

[arctic talon]

Did it?

I forgor

[storm jungle]

yep

[arctic talon]

💀

[crisp heath]

I'd heard that so I was curious

[arctic talon]

Fuck

[crisp heath]

Tbf a disabled Blackstone Fortress is still one of the most valuable things in the galaxy

[storm jungle]

I mean not really

[crisp heath]

What was dumber was just giving one away to Huron

[storm jungle]

i said it once ill say it again

if an imperial character did this

people would go

"OMG SUCH A GIGACHAD GENIUS"

[crisp heath]

I get mad the imperium for wasting 5,000 year old ships

So like, but what and how does the Star Child theory work?

Much less War in Heaven ships

[snow fern]

I think it’s funny it happened, just throw a blackstone fortress at a planet why not!

Chuck it like a frisbee

[dense salmon]

He really said "fuck it"

[snow fern]

Get some spin on that toss

[crisp heath]

But yeah can we all agree it was dumb to just give one to Huron Blackheart

[dense salmon]

Abaddon gets shit on a lot but the whole blackstone fortress thing is genuinely fucking funny

[arctic talon]

Yes

Also the fact it opened the great rift makes it like

[crisp heath]

Abaddon gets shit on too much. I honestly like his character a lot of the time

[arctic talon]

Absolutely worth it

Like the fuck do you mean throwing it was a mistake

Chaos practically controls half the galaxy now

[crisp heath]

You know what be better than a Blackstone fortress at cadia? Two of them

[arctic talon]

Lol

Huron 💀

[storm jungle]

Basically its a thing dating back to THE Ye Olde times of lore, its the theory that the Emperor can spawn back in the form of a God-Child from another human being and return back to humanity, very much inspired by 2001: A Space Odyssey, it was teased in the old days of the mid-2000 40k lore here and there but was never concrete yet a fun thing people liked talking about

Now I think 2 years ago the Throne of Light book made some hints towards it and the new Siege of Terra: Death and the End Part 2 made a showing of Big E filing away his """good""" personas into something and throwing it all away to face Horus to wipe him out for good.

Give it a read on the Lexicanum, very nice historical rundown and explanation, its not a complex subject but just is a bit dusty/hard to explain from its age.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Star_Child

[snow fern]

At the very least controls the toll booth to cross

[crisp heath]

Thank you!!!

[storm jungle]

Np!

its just a very basic subject but uh

the lore youtubers kinda overcomplicate it

lmao

[wet sandal]

Lore YouTubers inventing new ways to make 20 minute videos from 2 sentences of lore

[storm jungle]

^

[crisp heath]

Huh. So almost like the split between sanguinius's good and bad side, the Emperor almost did the same purposefully to himself? And now that could respawn at anytime in some random human out there in the galaxy?

[storm jungle]

Yeah basically that

[crisp heath]

Does he have to die for it to form?

[storm jungle]

the End and the Death info is a few weeks old and is very fresh

[green loom]

Well per the Rath book

The one he gave to Huron is basically unusable

[snow fern]

I mean big e is technically dead

[storm jungle]

No just that part of his spirit just inhabiting another body

or just being literally reborn

[green loom]

And the one he dumped fucktons of resources into actively sabotaged him and wouldn't obey

[crisp heath]

Huh....

That'd be insane...

So there's a legit chance for two emperors to show up in 40k. This star child, human, good side. And the God emperor, warp entity, who the fuck knows verison lol

And they could both exist at the same time...

Thats what I'm gathering

[plush mason]

the Dark king

[storm jungle]

basically ye

[storm jungle]

also theres this whole thing lol

[crisp heath]

How are more people not being blown away by this

[storm jungle]

Its mostly because its been known for awhile

[crisp heath]

My mind is imploding lol

[storm jungle]

and not a lot of us here care about Imperial plots too much

I dont find it too cool because its too much of a big event to ever happen

[plush mason]

so is big e destined to become this dark king?

[crisp heath]

I wonder... I can kinda see how it could play out.

But yeah, it'd be perhaps the single biggest shake up in 40k history if it ever did...

[storm jungle]

that has been avoided since he pooped out his "good" sides before fighting Horus

the uhhh End and the Death Part 2 book is really fucking weird

[crisp heath]

Basically he straight up is confirmed to be able to become a God whenever he wanted. He chose not to when he separated himself

[plush mason]

it would be an end times level shake up which means it wont happen til the sales start to plumet

[snow fern]

The problem with imperial plot stuff is unless something genuinely galaxy moving, like the expansion of the eye of terror for example happens, nothing super duper changes. Idk. Plot advancements aren’t really a thing too much in 40k, and end times aint gonna happen either

[crisp heath]

I don't think it'd be end times level. It would create a civil war and split the imperium though

[storm jungle]

Like

40k's general issue is the same as every other sci-fi media

[crisp heath]

Like it would shatter the cult of the emperor

[storm jungle]

• You move the plot forward, people bitch
• You don't know the plot forward, people bitch

40k fans are absolute whiny cashcows

[crisp heath]

10000 percent unfortunately

[snow fern]

Like the lion is back! Okay? What actually changes cause that?

[storm jungle]

yup

[spare osprey]

And the fisher king

[plush mason]

all the hate DS9 got is a perfect example of that lol

[storm jungle]

SILENCE do your thing

[crisp heath]

@spare osprey what's that?

[spare osprey]

The embodiment of the emperor within the sorta

Forest lion woke up in

[crisp heath]

... huh?

[spare osprey]

So, in lions new book

[storm jungle]

[spare osprey]

He woke up in another dimension more or else

This dimension is a mirror of caliban

[crisp heath]

Should I be scared lol?

[spare osprey]

The watchers in the dark inhabit it

I’m this dimension exists a king

A wounded king who will only ever respond to the right question

[plush mason]

give me the popcorn and no one gets hurt

[green loom]

Everyone will get hurt

[crisp heath]

@spare osprey so I have questions I hope that's ok

[spare osprey]

He is constantly swarmed by dark spirits, without shape and form but eternally dark.

So you can’t do shit to help him

[spare osprey]

Yeah course

[plush mason]

omg no. the dark angles are Arthurian enough as is GW

[spare osprey]

The risen and a few quotes

That’s all you’re getting

[spare osprey]

Yeah fun fact

I got the limited edition book

[crisp heath]

So there's a pocket or parallel dimension of cadia where watchers live. Are these the same Watchers as the Watcher in the Rain?

[spare osprey]

And the afterward by the author

[crisp heath]

1st question

[spare osprey]

Is him literally going on a tangent about all the Arthurian references in the book

[plush mason]

we do not need the holy grail stories added in

[spare osprey]

The green knight is also in there

[plush mason]

ofc he is

[spare osprey]

Yeah

[plush mason]

fucking hell

[spare osprey]

A slaaneah worshiper

Had his head cut off

He then picks up his head

[plush mason]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

[spare osprey]

And speaks that the marine (a fallen angel) is now owed a blow

Only the fallen angel could hear him and all

[snow fern]

The watcher in the rain is an unknown chaos entity that seems to haunt those feeling guilt

[spare osprey]

Literally the green knight

[plush mason]

different watcher

[green loom]

He then gets dogpiled at the end right?

[spare osprey]

Watchers in the dark*

[green loom]

Also ALL The Risen are named after Knights of the Round Table more or less

[plush mason]

the little green jawas

[spare osprey]

Yes, it’s literally the most over the top death I’ve ever read in a 40K novel

It is hilarious

[snow fern]

He was asking if the watchers in the dark were the same as the watcher in the rain, I was explaining what the latter was

[spare osprey]

Ah

Then no

[plush mason]

oh

[spare osprey]

Different entities

[plush mason]

^

[spare osprey]

The watchers are a weird group

[snow fern]

I wonder if there are any angels fans there just for the jawas? I can’t blame em

[green loom]

@storm jungle

[spare osprey]

I know a few

[spare osprey]

He is stabbed in both hearts

Has all his limbs cut off

Has his face stomped on

And they then unload 2 bolt pistols into his face

Till it goes through the ground

[snow fern]

Tis but a scratch

[green loom]

I feel like they're gonna Chekov's gun it and have him reappear randomly tov behead the Risen guy

[plush mason]

the watchers in the dark are the most intersting part of DA lore mainly because i cant take the rest of it seriously, literally just Arthurian knights in space

[spare osprey]

Fun fact

It was

[snow fern]

Fair

[spare osprey]

He was only barely dead

They had to get rid of his axe to kill him

[crisp heath]

@spare osprey so idk if you got my dms.... I'll just post the questions here... hopefully they don't get lost again...

[snow fern]

Don’t mess with the fae

[spare osprey]

Yeah didn’t get nothing I’m afraid

[spare osprey]

He tried to

Terminator stopped him

Says he’s a child

[crisp heath]

Question 1. So, the Watchers you said exist in this parallel Cadia. Are they the same as the Watcher in the Watcher in the Rain novel? I know it was a warp entity, but these don't sound far off

Question 2 I guess is, you say it's an embodiment of the Emperor, but how do we know that. You said it's just this dark silhouette of a damaged king and he can't really communicate openly. Was it like explicitly stated somewhere or...?

[spare osprey]

For caring about “honor”

[spare osprey]

Completely different. These aren’t necessarily warp entities as much as they are beings of their own separate state of existence

[spare osprey]

Was stated in the afterward by the author yes

[crisp heath]

Huh... just sounds weird. Idk how much I like this one...

[green loom]

Watchers are xenos with funky things they can do

[spare osprey]

Not even xenos at this point

[green loom]

As far as we know anyway

[spare osprey]

They’re really weird

Emps and Eldrad are even confused by them slightly

[green loom]

The watcher in the rain is a full on warp entity though

[spare osprey]

Lemme just

Fill up chat real quick

[green loom]

Also they aren't on parallel Cadia, they're on non-dead magic Caliban

[spare osprey]

One thing layered into the brief was the notion of the Lion being an Arthurian figure - Arthur, of course, being the True King of England who will allegedly return from his long sleep on Avalon when his country needs him. I decided to run with this, which is why keen-eyed readers will have spotted Arthurian influences amongst the names, the sword in the stone, the Green Knight, and the Fisher King.
The notion of the Emperor being the Fisher King suddenly struck me one morning: a wounded monarch, trapped in his castle and awaiting the one who can heal him. The similarities were too great to ignore for a novel which was already supposed to contain Arthurian elements, so those dreamlike sequences - inspired by the conversations between Malcador, the Emperor, and Horus in the Siege of Terra - became part of the plot. Of course, the Fisher King in this story cannot be healed, and I wondered whether that made it feel incomplete. How-ever, I must credit Jeannette Ng for pointing out to me that the flawed knight, who finds the grail castle but doesn't heal the Fisher King, is also a part of the myth. So there we have the Lion, the Flawed Knight: still a great force for good, but not perfect.
And who knows, perhaps at some point in the future, the Emperor will be healed. Or will finally die. After all, the background is moving now, and anything feels possible...

Oh yeah

@plush mason lion literally pulls a sword from a stone

That’s how he got his new sword

[spare osprey]

Oh yeah random unnecessary fact

That risen marine

Is Swedish

[green loom]

My condolences

[spare osprey]

It’s the most random bit of lore in the book

He’s friends with an Egyptian risen

I believe I have art of them somewhere

Here we are

[crisp heath]

Huh... I don't like it honestly. I agree with the author. Without having read the book, from a secondhand perspective, this feels like a vision at best and lucid dreams at worst. It just doesn't feel like it fits with any overarching narrative at all and was just a way for this author to continue an Arthorian story with no real care for how it would play in later.

[spare osprey]

Swedish Chef

Egyptian fella

[plush mason]

yeah GW is hell bent on making the DA a laughingstock

[spare osprey]

It’s goofy as hell no doubt

But honestly book itself

8.9/10

The risen as characters carry it

[plush mason]

oh im not saying its bad

[spare osprey]

No yah ik what you mean.

[crisp heath]

Idk about the book itself. But this Fisher King being an embodiment of the emperor, that I'm not sure I'm a fan of...

[spare osprey]

If they do it right it’ll be fine I think

They just need to give lion more lore

Atm

They sorta just brought him back, had him kill angron, then moved on to the nids

[crisp heath]

Idk. Because not only is that three separate possible emperors, this one feels forced af and feels, at least to me, to not fit in at all

[plush mason]

well in the actual myth he is a representative of God iirc

[crisp heath]

I always thought the fisher king was supposed to be crass nature of mankind

A representative not the God itself, 1. But even then, I don't really care about the myth one way or the other. It's the fact that it feels like it was just forced to continue an Arthurian narrative with no real plan for how it actually plays into anything

Hence why he's wounded in his "thigh", his pain comes from the organ that gives fleeting pleasure

[plush mason]

yeah i think you are right

[drifting jacinth]

Isn't it literally just a metaphor about a king's ability to have an heir mattering to the kingdom

[plush mason]

maybe

[drifting jacinth]

Like
Being wounded in the crotch matters for a king that's how they make more kings

[spare osprey]

Maybe the real fisher king, was the friends we made along the way

[plush mason]

its a myth so it has many meanings morals and interpretations

[crisp heath]

I think at certain point arguing anything about Arthurian myth becomes a case where everyone is probably right in some sense lmao

[spare osprey]

Oh yeah I should also mention

@crisp heath you’ll love this

The main villains whole goal in the book

Is to kill the emperor

So he can become the 5th chaos god

[crisp heath]

Lol of course lol

[spare osprey]

And kill the other gods

And save humanity

[drifting jacinth]

Dude isn't letting his dreams be memes ig

[drifting jacinth]

Oh that's hilarious

[crisp heath]

Who is it? If it's not Malice or Vashtorr, i don't want them@spare osprey

Lol

[spare osprey]

No no

He wants the emps to be the god

He thinks if he kills him

His spirit will be free

[crisp heath]

Lol what?

[green loom]

Yeah it's just some schmuck sorcerer

[spare osprey]

To become a god

[spare osprey]

Mhm

[crisp heath]

That's like... the opposite of everything we know lol

[drifting jacinth]

Isn't there an inquisitorial faction who thinks that the emperor dying will free him from his body ?

[green loom]

Ye

[spare osprey]

Yup

[green loom]

They had a fancy name I think but forgor

[drifting jacinth]

Those guys are probs onto something I'm ngl

[crisp heath]

If you want the emperor to become a chaos god, literally just leave him alone a while longer lol

He's still baking lol

[drifting jacinth]

The emperor basically is a region of the warp by himself at this point I don't see him being able to die like a shmuck

[spare osprey]

Something I found nice btw, lad was actually mentioned in prior lore

As was his 2nd in command fallen

[crisp heath]

@drifting jacinth so yes and no

He absolutely could die easy af.

If you can somehow separate him from the custodes

But his body dying, and his soul dying, are two vastly different things

[dense salmon]

yeah new map is pretty sick

my performance is much worse after the patch though

[crisp heath]

Oof

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about

Though if his soul is still there he could probs re-make himself a body since it's just a warp construct anyways

[green loom]

Mine is the opposite lol

[crisp heath]

@drifting jacinth yea soul wise would likely take the combined power of the other four chaos gods to wipe his soul

[green loom]

Game is running absurdly better randomly

[drifting jacinth]

Like
Dude wasn't born 12 feet tall without some bullshit being afoot

[crisp heath]

And even then it's doubtful

[drifting jacinth]

Khorn no diffs ez

[spare osprey]

Baelor is his name I think

[drifting jacinth]

It's warhammer 40k not eaglesword 40k

[crisp heath]

... lol
No@drifting jacinth

Khorne would not have an easy time with the emperor

Stop playing lolol

[spare osprey]

In prior lore he’s mentioned as being the fallen to lead the dark angels to stumble upon the STC for the Nephilim Jetfighter

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah hence why I joked about it

[crisp heath]

Lol you never know

Some people jock ride hard

[drifting jacinth]

No one no diffs anything the entire setting is built to make plastic dudes fight on equal footing

[crisp heath]

Lol this is true. But like, it should be very apparent that no single chaos god could handle the emperor in a 1v1

Maybe T before he gave up his staff, but then the Emperor never would have existed anyway

[drifting jacinth]

Great Horned Rat could

[crisp heath]

No lol

Stop it lol

https://tenor.com/view/johny-gif-27696534

Lolol

[drifting jacinth]

Rats > humans

[nocturne crest]

Huh. TIL there is a human cult dedicated to the horned rat.

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah, the something something claw iirc

They only really matter for the .5 seconds right before the end times though

[crisp heath]

Theory question. We know Tzeentch shattered his staff and scattered his spells throughout the materium to save the great game from himself winning. Could he, though I know he never would, could he reform it, thus depriving the materium of all magic? With time being the malleable thing it is in the warp, it could be said he always and never had it. So couldn't he just... have it again at some point and shut off magic lol?

[drifting jacinth]

Not quite, the gods don't actually do stuff
90% of what they did in the "past" is just a part of them, not having his staff is part of who tzeentch is

[crisp heath]

But like, having it is also a part of who he is lol

At one point

[drifting jacinth]

Nah

"the god that lost his staff" is smth he always was

[crisp heath]

And never was

[drifting jacinth]

He never actually had it, it's like mythology

[drifting jacinth]

No

[crisp heath]

Lol yes that's literally how the warp works

Slanesh didn't always exist

But she did

To say the staff never existed is like saying slanesh never existed before she formed in the materium

[drifting jacinth]

Slaanesh has a specific birth and that made her retroactively exist
That's different from Tzeentch losing his staff, which isn't an actual event

[crisp heath]

But it was though... idk why one is real to you and the other is not...

[drifting jacinth]

First off, it's described in a 15 year old book, so that's already not a point for it being canon
Secondly, it's literally described as being a myth in that book

The fall of the eldar is an actual historical event

The tzeentch thing is a religion's myth about why magic exists

[crisp heath]

Literally the age of books does nothing to the veracity of their Canon. Plenty of og shit is still Canon. And plenty more has been soft retconned. It's age means nothing. And it's never been addressed since. The war in heaven is also thought to be myth. It has no specific dates. It must also have never happened

[drifting jacinth]

The war in heaven is not thought to be a myth, no

There's a dozen characters who were like
there

[crisp heath]

Lol it is though. And they only people that were there were the necrons who don't have myths

[drifting jacinth]

The necrons do have myths, and no, it isn't

[crisp heath]

Name one necron myth

[drifting jacinth]

Cite a source or don't say baseless stuff

[crisp heath]

You do the same lol

Name a single Necron Myth

Literally their own gods were subjugated by them

[drifting jacinth]

I showed an extract

[crisp heath]

Yo showed one tiny snippet that shows the Eldar believe its a myth

[drifting jacinth]

Nephreth being a necrontyr that's still alive

[drifting jacinth]

It doesn't mention the eldars, no

[crisp heath]

That doesn't say anything about whether or not it actually happened

But that's who it's about

[drifting jacinth]

What

[crisp heath]

The eldars myth. That's what it's about. It's viewed from the Eldar perspective

[crisp heath]

This isn't a myth though. Just like, a hope or rumor

[drifting jacinth]

The staff thing isn't a myth to the eldars, it's a myth to tzeentchian cultists

[drifting jacinth]

It's described as a legend in the book, which is synonymous to myth as far as I'm concerned

[crisp heath]

He was possessed by one of the C'tan and didn't have to deal with the usual necron ailments

Legends aren't myths

Ffs

[drifting jacinth]

I mean

[crisp heath]

Similar doesn't mean the same

Myths are stories that are passed down about how or why something came to be. Legends are designed to teach a lesson about a real person in history, with a few facts dramatically changed.

[drifting jacinth]

It's a synonym dude

[crisp heath]

Lol it's wrong is what it is

Literally legends aren't myths. Name a myth

[drifting jacinth]

You're disagreeing with uh
the cambridge dictionary

[crisp heath]

Lol synonyms don't have the same definitions, so no. I'm not

[drifting jacinth]

Ok dude

[crisp heath]

@drifting jacinth and btw, that was the Oxford dictionary

[drifting jacinth]

Here you go king, you're disagreeing with both

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah
I didn't say it was in my screenshot, I said you were opposed to it lmao

[crisp heath]

Find me a lit book where synonyms have the same definitions

They are similar. Not the same

[drifting jacinth]

All books are lit, reading is dope 😎

[crisp heath]

Fair. But I meant an English class book

[drifting jacinth]

Dude, I genuinely don't care to
I've shown you screenshots after screenshots supporting my point and you're at the point of defending your argument where you want me to go look for an literature textbook

You keep switching the topic from what you said to necrons not having myths and the definition of words

[crisp heath]

Lol that's fine. You are still flat wrong lol. You keep posting synonyms knowing that the definitions don't help you. They don't have myths. They do not believe in Gods of creation nor any stories as such. The Olds ones spurned them, and the C'tan are their bitch. They have no need for myth

Legends between themselves however, yeah they absolutely have

[dense salmon]

this new update brought out the undesirables i see

two lobbies of the bossiest tryhards in a row

like mf it's just damnation let me sight see

[crisp heath]

Oofers

[warm notch]

Lol that sucks

Carnival is such a good map too

I need MORE

The fucking firefights are insane

Especially in the first area that you breach into to get the cypher-idents

[dense salmon]

i appreciate the map's use of rejects unite

[warm notch]

I love how the community unanimously named the song that

Wonder if they’ll ever make it official

[crisp heath]

Would be dope

[plush mason]

kinda stupid question since I don't know much about 40k lore but if you play as male savant psyker, at one point he mentions doing his service as if he was a cop or something, so my question is how did they allow a psyker to be a cop or a soldier?

like from what I understand people generally don't trust psykers

[warm notch]

Without Psykers the Imperium of Mankind loses all cohesion and functionality

It’s a love/hate type of thing

[storm jungle]

Enforcers use whatever they got at their hands, psykers can be useful for sniffing out trouble-makers and making their job easier, this isn't standard procedure mind you.

[warm notch]

They need Psykers but religious dogma prevents them from treating them well

[storm jungle]

Also a tool is a tool, at the end of the day.

his character bio outright says they betrayed him later

[warm notch]

When all you have is a warhammer . . .

[storm jungle]

[plush mason]

oh I didn't read that

[warm notch]

Every problem looks heretical UwU

[storm jungle]

Im sending you to the shadow dimension

[languid salmon]

also aren't there a bunch of people who recently became psykers with the psykic awakening that happend

[warm notch]

It’s ok you’re still within 99% of Warhammer 40k fans

Nothing unusual

[drifting jacinth]

In practice psykers that aren't too powerful or too unstable get recruited for either the throne's choir, the astropaths, or serve in the guard

[storm jungle]

ye it gets mentioned ingame

[drifting jacinth]

They usually aren't killed on sight, it's just that they have even less rights than the average citizen

Now I wonder if guard psykers get like benefits the same as normal soldiers
Does the guard offer healthcare

[languid salmon]

they kind of want to keep them alive to be sent off on the blackships to fuel the astronomicon

[drifting jacinth]

The astronomicon ones tend to be the weakest, iirc

[languid salmon]

or unstable

[arctic talon]

They’d prolly get fixed up

A Psyker is still valuable

Even if they’re a witch/freak/Ect.

[drifting jacinth]

I think the sisters of silence kill these because they'd be a danger to let too near terra ? Not sure tho

[languid salmon]

sisters of silence just being near them can prevent them from using their abilities and they are the ones that go out on the blackships to go psyker hunting

[drifting jacinth]

I don't think there's a book that really goes in depth on what the black ships are like, it's usually a distant memory at best

[storm jungle]

They do

Throne of Light especially

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah ik but I'd assume they don't run the astronomicon

[storm jungle]

its awful

You literalyl are forced to kneel in your own shit and piss while strobe lights and high pitched noises blare to keep you awake and suffering

this is for every psyker onboard the ship in their own cell

[languid salmon]

would sacrificing people be anything but awful?

[storm jungle]

I mean

nobody really cares minus the psykers

so you tell me

[languid salmon]

ok outside of a warhammer 40k point of view, most people would say human sacrifice is messed up

[storm jungle]

I mean yeah it is

[patent ivy]

Wait if the Emperor could just come back to life after he dies, why didn’t he just do that after the fright with Horus

Instead of being hooked up to the golden throne

[languid salmon]

because becoming a living beacon is more stylish

[storm jungle]

Mostly because he just didn't know at the time and was too mauled

we will definitely get a more clear explanation once the last Siege book is out though

[languid salmon]

or get a very unclear explanation that makes less sense

[drifting jacinth]

Powering the throne is taking too much out of him for him to become rehydrated

[crisp heath]

Psychers are almost never killed on sight. They either get sent to the black ships or forced into training

[patent ivy]

Ah ok

When’s that

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah
That's what I wrote

[crisp heath]

Oops yea sorry was catching up

[warm notch]

“Why doesn’t the emperor just stand up? Is he stupid?”

[crisp heath]

It's based of real military pow tactics, but like taken to an absurd level.

[drifting jacinth]

I mean it's based on uh
Actual prisons

Like, it's not much worst than some solitary confinements rn

[crisp heath]

Nah, most prisons look like hospitals comparatively

Maybe like them south American Uber fucked prisons though

[drifting jacinth]

I hope you never have to see how wrong that is

[crisp heath]

Lol my uncle is a guard for Lexington here in Oklahoma. Been through a tour twice with him on some scared straight stuff

They ain't pretty inside by any means, but the black ships by far are worse

[storm jungle]

The new book JUST came out like... a week ago i think? Its Part 2, Part 3 will probably be next year.

[storm jungle]

Also yeah like 40k delves into this gore stuff a lot

as long as we dont go into too much cringe detail its fine to discuss for the most part minus the IRL parallels

[dusk patrol]

Next book releases early January I believe

For End and the Death

[patent ivy]

☹️

[storm jungle]

same reaction

over-stretched and overhyped af

[drifting jacinth]

Wasn't there a full year between the first and second ? Weird that they changed the pace

[storm jungle]

Abnett has most of it written

the entire reason its spread into 3 Parts is because theres so much fucking text

GW is obviously never gonna say no since its free money

[crisp heath]

Facts lol...

[dusk patrol]

It worked for me, could have been shorter and there’s some stuff when repeated itself but I won’t complain, especially since it hopefully will let the third book have a lot of aftermath

It’s not as good as the first but I liked it

[drifting jacinth]

Is it a chore to read ? I'm really not up on 30k stuff

[storm jungle]

Uhhhh

Yes/No

[dusk patrol]

How far into it are you

[storm jungle]

do you like chapters swapping to different characters every 1-3 Pages? 💀

[drifting jacinth]

Not far, I mostly read 40k traitor stuff

[dusk patrol]

Idk then

It’s meant to be the culmination

[crisp heath]

... when done well

[drifting jacinth]

Lords of Silence trilogy when

[crisp heath]

When not its migraine inducing

[dusk patrol]

It’s not a good book to skip to lol

[drifting jacinth]

Not planning on it, mostly just curious about the quality

[dusk patrol]

I didn’t have too much trouble following it but I did think there was a couple plot lines not needed

[dusk patrol]

I enjoy it

[storm jungle]

Abnett basically has the shittiest editors

[dusk patrol]

I’ve heard complaints but I don’t think it’s bad

[storm jungle]

or prob the most spineless

its not bad

it just has way too much filler

[dusk patrol]

I think it suffers from being in the middle mostly

[storm jungle]

we are talking 600+ pages here

[dusk patrol]

I imagine the next will be a lot more economical

[crisp heath]

It's sad honestly because I think he gets blamed for it often and people dislike his writing when a lot of it is his editors faults

[storm jungle]

Everyone loves Abnett tbh

[dusk patrol]

It retreads a lot of the first book

[storm jungle]

^

like holy shit

the amount of times

• OH NO THE WALLS HAVE FALLEN

• OH NO THE LEGIONS ARE ENDLESS

gets repeated constantly

[lapis wadi]

THE INNER WALLS HAVE FALLEN
THE INNER INNER WALLS HAVE FALLEN
THE INNER INNER INN-

[storm jungle]

LITERALLY THIS

LMAO

[dusk patrol]

But I got a Ferrus scene and the meatier scenes were all good so I’m happy

[drifting jacinth]

I mean, it's a siege

[crisp heath]

🤣 💀

[storm jungle]

How many fucking times

do i have to hear

that they breached the walls

does Helms Deep repeat the scene where the uruks blow the wall up 10 times?

[queen laurel]

There is someone in the world who read through every single page of that and enjoyed it

[lapis wadi]

Fortress ablative armor

[storm jungle]

90% of r/40klore

[lapis wadi]

50 low quality walls is just as good as 1 really good wall right

[crisp heath]

Well... I think there were 3 or 4 walls... so.... 3 or 4 times? Lolol@storm jungle

[dusk patrol]

Hah

[storm jungle]

you joke but there was

[dusk patrol]

They don’t read

[storm jungle]

LEL

Its a mix

theres the ones who are like

"cant wait for people to not read this book and bitch about it"

then the total opposite

My issue is they act like its perfect which is annoying

[dusk patrol]

My favorite are the ones who skip through it and declare Abnett a hack and also they figured out all the plot and your theories are dumb

[storm jungle]

I think the peak of my time there was uhhh a guy with a fucking Rogal Dorn avatar and Imperial Fists tags saying he loves filler in Siege books.

truly a space marine fan of all time

[drifting jacinth]

Lmao

[dusk patrol]

Tbf the siege books are great if you like If

Which makes sense

But yeah lol

[storm jungle]

"I love reading the slop of Fafnir killing people for 5 pages."

[crisp heath]

Lol it's 40k... nothing is perfect or makes sense. We literally connect apples to oranges and somehow it becomes lore after enough people like the idea and gw can find a way to make money off it lol

[storm jungle]

yeee

again the book is good

it just has bullshit i dont care about

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[drifting jacinth]

That's basically their main thing for the heresy tbh I'm happy that they're the focus

[dusk patrol]

The Ferrus part was very unexpected and well done which I’ll always love Abnett for

[dusk patrol]

Yeah it’s definitely earned

They don’t get much else to do

[drifting jacinth]

They don't do much else other than that yeah

[dusk patrol]

Mostly just Phall and the battle of Pluto

And now Cthonia kinda too

[dense salmon]

the imperium actually doesn't mind the lower ranking psykers

[drifting jacinth]

"Damn, sucks you guys are getting slaughtered, bet you wish you had walls"
-Dorn watching the dropsite massacre

[dense salmon]

the ones that are limited to reading minds or subtly influencing others

they actually make great inquisitors

[storm jungle]

Iron Cage Moment

Where he gets his sons slaughtered by charging walls

[crisp heath]

@dense salmon don't mind = barely tolerate so long as they do their duty lol

[dense salmon]

like an theta class for example

[warm notch]

Are the average psykers not even powerful enough to be a problem?

[drifting jacinth]

The iron cage is such a good character moment tho

[dense salmon]

would probably get by

[storm jungle]

I dont care much about IF and think they are generic af so i just like Dorn getting his ass kicked.

so im not the right critic fortunately

[crisp heath]

Kinda? There's three rankings of psychers, with like mid rankings in those. Most psychers can cause small threats to a single community. All psychers are dangerous.

[drifting jacinth]

They're the vanilla marines, but dorn deciding to smash his head into a wall out of pride definitively shows what kinda person he is

[dense salmon]

more than three

[drifting jacinth]

Depends on the writer

[crisp heath]

Three main rankings, with sub rankings in those

[dense salmon]

fair enough

[dusk patrol]

Tbf the siege series is kinda meant to show how he got to that point but also the story of the Iron Cage isn’t super clear still

[dense salmon]

there's also the blanks

which are their own category

[drifting jacinth]

There's no books for it right

[dusk patrol]

Yeah just codex stuff

From the IW and IF side

[drifting jacinth]

One day probs

[dusk patrol]

Probably

Same with a lot of scouring stuff

[storm jungle]

GW needs that money

we'll get Scouring soon

[dusk patrol]

ADB will resolve Sevatars plotline with a book in 5 years.

[drifting jacinth]

"We lostt greatly that day"
-Imperial fist codex
"Lololololololol"
-Iron warrior codex

[dusk patrol]

He started the book four years ago

[drifting jacinth]

I just hope he gets to write the decimus trilogy :(

[dusk patrol]

He has said he plans to

[dense salmon]

perturabo in the proverbial pissing contest

[dusk patrol]

But with how long he takes to write who knows

I hope he does

[lapis wadi]

Do the Imperial Fists have the ability to drop fortress from orbit and if not, why not

[dusk patrol]

That and Emperors Spears

[dusk patrol]

Well, there are drop keeps for Imperial Knights

[lapis wadi]

That'll do

[drifting jacinth]

Crenelated drop pods

[dusk patrol]

Also titan drop pods are basically fortresses

[drifting jacinth]

Can't you just drop the titan

[dusk patrol]

Nah they need pods

[crisp heath]

This makes me laugh. All I can think of are like, the interviews after a football game, and the players talking about their performance lolol. The imperial fist being all like "We definitely could have played better." Meanwhile the iron warriors are talking mad shit lolol

[dusk patrol]

Legio Astorum can teleport them down

Which is quite the sight I imagine

[drifting jacinth]

It's already bending the square root law over wildly, what's a few more giga-tons

[drifting jacinth]

"It's right behind me, isn't it"

[lapis wadi]

I choose to believe the Fists use these Drop Keeps just because smacking a forward command post in the middle of enemy lines sounds like peak 𝔉𝔬𝔯𝔱𝔦𝔣𝔶
Like even without memes, it does feel like a tactic they'd bring out occasionally

[crisp heath]

Honestly I could see it too lol

[dusk patrol]

Legio Tempestrus also aggressively drops their titans in, at a rate which fucks up the atomosphere of the world. Which is how they got the name the Stormlords.

[drifting jacinth]

I mean fists on the attack are all about methodically taking and holding teritory, drop-podding in like, sandbags is smth they'd do

[drifting jacinth]

That's dope

[dusk patrol]

Tbf all chapters and legions could attack and be aggressive, they’re all able to wear all hats, they just have preferred methods

[crisp heath]

See it's shit like this that I really wish we could get visuals for. Some things in 40k just are described so epicly

[dusk patrol]

Same

[lapis wadi]

Look out over the battlements of your fortress.. bored.. there's a battle in orbit but the ground battles haven't begun.
You blink, and there's an entire fort in No Man's Land with yellow astartes and a half-dozen Knight warhorns blaring

[dusk patrol]

Them and Astorum

Fuck me put them in a book dammit

Astorum teleports them in and their titans also are modified to sprint faster so they can be as aggressive as possible with assaults

[drifting jacinth]

Nah ik but they specifically try to hold teritorry which most legions/chapters dgaf about and leave to gruntier grunts

[dusk patrol]

Imagine getting speartip assaulted by a fucking titan Legio

[dusk patrol]

It depends on the circumstances but they do prefer to defend.

[lapis wadi]

"Stand by for Titanfall" is several orders of magnitude more terrifying in Warhammer than TF huh..

[dusk patrol]

Definitely has quite the impact

[drifting jacinth]

Wouldn't a titan drop pod basically be a rod from god ?

[dusk patrol]

They have thrusters to slow down

[lapis wadi]

It's a good way of clearing chaff from your landing site

[crisp heath]

Lol not gonna lie, warhammer titans would shit on titanfall titans

[dusk patrol]

And they can achieve space flight too

The drop pods for titans are more like massive landers tbh

[crisp heath]

Some of the smaller ones might have a harder time, but the normal and bigger titans? Yea no. Titanfall ain't got nothing on them

[dusk patrol]

Tempestrus is the only one who really lets them go at insane speeds down

[lapis wadi]

Not even a fair fight, like just weight class
Even Armiger knights are 6m

[dusk patrol]

Knights are more comparable yeah

[lapis wadi]

You should probably compare to Termies or Dreads

[drifting jacinth]

By default, void shields mean that anything that's not goofy levels of firepower doesn't put a scratch

[crisp heath]

The only plus side titanfall titans have are their pilots being alive and separate entities. Which does nothing for them and would likely be a hindrance in a fight with a warhammer titan

[drifting jacinth]

A termie vs a titanfall titan would probably lose on firepower but the pilot's probably better so I'd put it at 50/50

[lapis wadi]

That said, the best part of a TF Titan is more the Pilot honestly.
The fact you can blow one up and you've just pissed off this supersoldier with stealth tech is scary

[drifting jacinth]

Not termie, dread
I'm tired lmao

[lapis wadi]

Also the fact they'll climb on your mech and start ripping out wires and shoving grenades inside.
I've had this conversation a couple times with Battletech mechs vs TF Titans>>

[crisp heath]

The pilots would be badass in 40k, but honestly they are pretty similar to the different assassin supersoldiers in the imperium

[drifting jacinth]

Battletech mechs get way bigger though

[crisp heath]

This is true, but I wonder if the different assasins of the imperium couldn't just do the same thing

[lapis wadi]

Yeah, but Pilots are way better at fighting than Mechwarriors is the argument.

[drifting jacinth]

Deeeeeepends on where from, clanner pilots are also elite infantry by default

[lapis wadi]

Well.. yeah? Assassins can take down space marines. I imagine they'd do something like this against Termies

[crisp heath]

@lapis wadi right right

[drifting jacinth]

Most assassins could probably take out a titan with a good enough plan

[crisp heath]

So like, in a sense they'd be 40ks equivalent to pilots

[lapis wadi]

True.. Clanners would probably react better. But the first few times when a Pilot suddenly pops the mechwarrior's cockpit and yeets a grenade inside is going to be messy

It'll take a couple battles to react I reckon

[crisp heath]

Lol imagine their reaction

[drifting jacinth]

There's a drone in Lancer that drills into the cockpit of a pilot and turns him into chunky salsa, I love that kinda stuff

[lapis wadi]

"Okay so we need to issue our Warriors with better sidearms and better door locks.. and look into reinforcing joints. Their weird Elemental-like fighters go for them"

[crisp heath]

"They were all over me Cap! I couldn't do nothing! They show no fear! We have to do something!"

"They were on your mech?"

"Yes sir!"

"Dear chaos..."

[tough haven]

Is there an astra militarum regiment known for a ton of psykers or abhumans?

[drifting jacinth]

There's ogryn regiments

They're mostly used as reserves to lend ogryns out to other regiments though

[lapis wadi]

Buut bringing it back to 40k, is anything like Morvenn Vahl's armor outside of astartes and sisters?
Thinking about Elementals and smaller mechs had me thinking

[crisp heath]

So yeah... what he said. I know there are ogryn regiments. But I don't think there are full psycher ones. And also, the ogryn ones are usually led by a regular human commisar I believe

[lapis wadi]

The Guard definitely don't get cool power armor like that for sure, but does anyone else?

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah, abhumans can't climb any hierarchy, they're second rate citizens

There's probably also ratling regiments and the likes

[drifting jacinth]

Uh, wdym by that question
Most human factions have mechs except for guards, tau have a bunch, orks too

[lapis wadi]

Abhumans sure, they're usually their own regiments.
There were also beastmen regiments in the past... they still technically exist now I think, but you don't hear about them much.
Psykers probably, none come to mind right now though, and I imagine the Imperium prefers to spread them around rather than let them make their own witch club

[crisp heath]

I'd agree with this

[drifting jacinth]

Psykers are rare as hell and regiments come from the same single planet, usually

[crisp heath]

@drifting jacinth and I think he was just asking if there were any named imperials that had mech armor similar

[drifting jacinth]

So I'd assume making an ogryn regiment from one of the OG ogryn planets is doable, but a full psyker army seems tough

[lapis wadi]

A planet might have a higher than normal psyker population and their regiment reflects that.
It still wouldn't be majority-psyker, but there could easily be a regiment that makes more use of psykers than others

[drifting jacinth]

Ooooh

[spare osprey]

I always liked to imagine like a guard colonel with dwarfism. So he can still rise up and be well…a “full respected citizen” but his troops still fuck around and bust his balls about being a “ratling”

[drifting jacinth]

Outside of named dreadnoughts I don't think so

[spare osprey]

Just assholes Y’know

[lapis wadi]

That is called Grey Knights.
Or Eldar.

[drifting jacinth]

I think dwarfism would be considered a mutation sadly

[drifting jacinth]

Ye but those aren't guards

[lapis wadi]

Are dwarfs considered abhumans?

[spare osprey]

See that’s something I wanna learn more about

[drifting jacinth]

They're still humans

[crisp heath]

@lapis wadi yes, the votann are abhumans

[spare osprey]

Non planetary/chaos/freak accident mutations

[lapis wadi]

Not the same thing, I mean like.. dwarves today. Peter Dinklage, Warwick Davis
Votann kin are like.. gene-modded and stuff

[crisp heath]

It is literally stated the Votann are abhumans

[drifting jacinth]

The votann aren't just dwarfs, they're a race of clones with memory magic bullshit and can't breed at all afaik

[tough haven]

I didnt mean one thats just mostly psykers just one thats known for having an above average number of psykers or abhumans

by the by

[drifting jacinth]

Too close to irl politics for any writer to tackle it, I think

[lapis wadi]

I guess by definition, modern dwarves are abhumans

[tough haven]

how are ratlings such good snipers

[crisp heath]

But... like. They are still 40ks dwarfs. If you are talking actual dwarfism. Idk. I doubt the imperium would look at any mutation favorably

[lapis wadi]

They're stable, but a clear mutation.. that's what abhumans are

[drifting jacinth]

Nah abhumans can't breed with humans

[drifting jacinth]

Irl it's not a mutation

[tough haven]

still count as xenos though since they are against baseline humanity (arent best friends they mean)

[crisp heath]

And yea no, they can't breed. The ai they're named after creates them from a DNA bank

[tough haven]

if we're talking about votaan

[drifting jacinth]

I think they're just very patient and small sizes help with hiding, not sure

[crisp heath]

Yes and no

[tough haven]

even though I believe in lore they are technically branched off of humanity

or derived from

the imperium considers them xenos

[crisp heath]

They are legitimate humans/abhumans. The imperium just doesn't see them as such.

[tough haven]

Yeah

[lapis wadi]

I can't find a source on this

[drifting jacinth]

Yep, abhumans are fully unique species that came from homo sapiens
The imperium counts them as xenos for polical reasons but they're abhumans

[lapis wadi]

Abhumans are abhumans, xenos are xenos

[drifting jacinth]

They have phylogenic names

[crisp heath]

Abhumans absolutely can breed. What? The votann just don't because of their culture

[drifting jacinth]

*Phylogenetic

[crisp heath]

They absolutely could though

[lapis wadi]

Not what was being discussed

[tough haven]

So your saying I could theoretically get that votussy (I'm so sorry, but I had to)

[lapis wadi]

Like nobody WOULD but I don't remember "unable to breed true with baseline humanity" being a part of the abhuman definition

[crisp heath]

Sorry that was meant for who you were responding to@lapis wadi

[drifting jacinth]

Abhumans can reproduce, no one's saying otherwise
I believe votanns are sterile, that's all

Might be wrong, haven't read their codex

[crisp heath]

Idk if it's ever explicitly stated they are. They just dont need to. The Votann AI literally makes them perfect for their job or role in society genetically.

[lapis wadi]

I don't know how we got here

[crisp heath]

This lol

[drifting jacinth]

The wiki seems to say I'm wrong and abhumans could breed with baseline humans (and other abhumans, ig)

[crisp heath]

And we had been talking about Votann

[lapis wadi]

They're still human, after all

[crisp heath]

I really thought they could

Like a horse and a donkey

Their children however might not be able to

[drifting jacinth]

Weird that there's no mention of a half-whatever anywhere then, seems like a fun basis for a character

[lapis wadi]

Also after skimming the abhuman lexicanum wiki, did they really add lizardmen to necromunda?
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scalies

[crisp heath]

Wouldn't doubt it a bit

[lapis wadi]

"My ma was an ogryn. My da was a REALLY ambitious ratling."

"Rest in peace, dad."

[drifting jacinth]

Mutations are way fuckier in 40k than irl because the warp, even without fully corrupting people, changes genomes in a way that doesn't just kill people

[crisp heath]

Now that would be a sitcom I could get behind

"How my rat met your mother"

[drifting jacinth]

It's like how radiation changes your dna except sentient

[arctic talon]

I'm like 99% sure lexicanum is wrong

on abhumans being able to interbreed

[lapis wadi]

I'd imagine that combining abhumans results in something too unstable to live or pass on it's genes.
And nobody, ain't NOBODY wants to admit to banging an abhuman and making a half-felinid or something

[dense salmon]

not everyone that can interbreed produces viable children

[crisp heath]

@arctic talon so usually they post sources? Is it there?

[arctic talon]

I'm going searching

lol

[dense salmon]

lions and tigers can interbreed but produce sterile children

[arctic talon]

hopefully

I get an actual source

and not some bullshit white dwarf painting guide

like I have on like

4 seperate occasions

[crisp heath]

Yea.... let's hope

[arctic talon]

oh wait

nvm

they said subspecies

I think this is just GW being dumb with science

lol

[drifting jacinth]

Half-ogryns would probably be undistinguishable from a big dumb dude

[crisp heath]

🤷‍♂️ I think so too. But I'm here for it. I really think it should work like a horse and mule, or tiger and lion. They can produce hybrids, but the hybrids are sterile. It would make the most sense

[arctic talon]

prolly

tbh

[dense salmon]

horses and donkeys produce viable children

lions and tigers don't though

or if they do they are so few that it's an outlier

[crisp heath]

Mules are more than likely always sterile....

[snow fern]

These lines with the communcations officer and wolfen are great.
“How many are there?!”
“I’m receiving conflicting reports?!”
“They never were good at numerics…”

[spare osprey]

Felinid ogryn

[lapis wadi]

SAH, NYA, SAH!

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah mules are usually sterile

[crisp heath]

Mules are 99.9% sterile. This is due to an uneven chromosome count although in rare cases, female mules have been known to give birth to foals.

[dense salmon]

i sit corrected

[drifting jacinth]

Calling someone a mule is actually an oooooold french way of calling them sterile, funnily enough

[dense salmon]

that is funny

[crisp heath]

Lol I grew up round farms is the only reason I knew

[drifting jacinth]

Same

[dense salmon]

i heard some recent buzz about uh

polar bears and grizzly bears interbreeding

like more of them in the wild

[drifting jacinth]

Pizzly and grolar bears

Yea

They share territory and apparently aren't that picky

[dense salmon]

polar bears being endurance hunters and grizzlies being generally aggressive

is a scary thought

polar bears are tenacious when it comes to prey

once they get a scent, they follow it for a looooong time

[drifting jacinth]

Usually animals like that don't get "the best of both worlds" behavior wise, they kinda just are halfway through

[spare osprey]

Last thing a throne forsaken heretic sees when they decide Tzeentch might be a cool deity:

[dense salmon]

mules are the only example where they do get desirable qualities from both parents

which i guess is why we breed mules so often

[drifting jacinth]

Uuh

Not really

[crisp heath]

On the polar and grizzly bears. Yea, that's a thing. And it's as bad as you think.

[dense salmon]

they're larger and stronger than donkeys and less temperamental than horses

[drifting jacinth]

"Desirable quality" is highly subjective

[crisp heath]

You both aren't necessarily wrong...

Unfortunately it's not an exact science... and while mules do have some perks over a straight Donkey, they often times can be harder to work with

[drifting jacinth]

Being larger isn't always good, shit like that
There's a handful of animals that are made to interbreed for humans, zebra-horses are ocasionally used as dressage horses

[crisp heath]

This^

[lapis wadi]

I can see the Imperium intentionally er, making abhuman mules for shock troops. Or at least experimenting with the concept.

[drifting jacinth]

Zorse is a stupid name, not using it

[crisp heath]

Think Clydesdale. Size isn't always best...

[drifting jacinth]

I mean some magos biologis probably used ogryn genes for fun and profit at some point, but it's getting close to heresy

The human form is sacred to the imperial cult

Fucking with it isn't well seen

[crisp heath]

Unless you're the emperor or malcador or belisarius cawl or...

Lol

There's a few that could have at one point fucked around. But yea most of the imperium would view it as heresy

[drifting jacinth]

Space marines aren't seen as abhumans, they look like humans and are born that way

[dense salmon]

the geneseed is a hallowed item

[crisp heath]

Lol but it's still fucking with the human form

[drifting jacinth]

It's not seen that way

[crisp heath]

It's only not seen as such cause the emperor did it

[drifting jacinth]

That's a big part of it yeah

[crisp heath]

Which is my point

[dense salmon]

100%

[drifting jacinth]

But the fact they still just look like tall dudes helps

[dense salmon]

until you cut them open

[crisp heath]

Lol have you seen a space marine?

[lapis wadi]

A space marine can't bang a human and make another marine, they don't qualify as abhuman.
Abhuman have to be able to breed true and not devolve by any notable amount over time

They're 'just' gene-modded

[crisp heath]

Some do not look like normal dudes

[storm jungle]

Space Marines are mutants

its said plenty of times in lore

[crisp heath]

This^

[storm jungle]

but artificial mutants to be precise i guess

[drifting jacinth]

Nah, I'm on a 40k discord channel without knowing what space marines look like

[crisp heath]

Lol I know

[dense salmon]

primarchs go even further

[lapis wadi]

By our current defition.. they're not. But 40k will 40k

[dense salmon]

to the point that their internal biology is barely comparable to a human's

[storm jungle]

A mutation is basically anything that makes you irregular to a normal human

[drifting jacinth]

Primarchs barely have an internal biology iirc

[storm jungle]

marines fit into this

[dense salmon]

they do, it's just extremely different

[crisp heath]

Ok, well not every chapter looks like the ultra marines

[dense salmon]

angron is a good example

[drifting jacinth]

:|

[crisp heath]

They don't all look normal

[storm jungle]

Apply nails to the brain

[crisp heath]

Some have horns and fur and spikes and all sorts of shit

[drifting jacinth]

Yeah i know
Those bits are explicitly called mutations from the standard

[dense salmon]

he got some of his frontal lobe scooped

poor guy

[storm jungle]

I wish i got that treatment sometimes 💀

[crisp heath]

@drifting jacinth lol so.... like abhumans?

[dense salmon]

i call angron a lobotomite a lot

and it's not even a meme

dude is a genuine lobotomite

[drifting jacinth]

Nah, abhumans are born that way

[crisp heath]

Mutations from the standard?

Lol I know, but still

[lapis wadi]

Actually, yeah true I was wrong.
Mutations can be made artificially. You would become a mutant when exposed to radiation.
I was being narrow in only considering the natural random chance

[dense salmon]

psykers are also abhuman

[storm jungle]

Yeah for example we got a condition where your inner organs can be reversed

[dense salmon]

well

[storm jungle]

even that makes you a mutant

[dense salmon]

mutant is a better term

[storm jungle]

But IRL a mutant is not really a deragatory term

its scientific

[lapis wadi]

Navigators are abhumans (and mutants)
Psykers are mutants

[crisp heath]

@storm jungle it's wiiiierd! I have a friend with it

[dense salmon]

the fucked up part is someone can go most of their lives not knowing they have flipped organs

[storm jungle]

Yeah i only learned its a thing from Hitman

[dense salmon]

imagine like

you need an appendectomy

and they go in lapriscopically

only to enter from the wrong side

[drifting jacinth]

Mutation just means a dna change, it's extremely vague
In 40k it mostly just means "dudes who look weird, probably due to chaos" though