40k-lore-chat

[crimson kayak]

I for once like that as he gets closer and closer to godhood, he gets more and more detached from reality and his Og goal.

Wich also makes sense with how the warp works, at it twists and pulls the darkest versions of one's vision

[crisp heath]

I also like the detail in it that he apparently trusted Curze more than any of the other primarchs because it sounds so wild but the logic in the story is really sound and justified

[vale shuttle]

gosh

im gonna be honest with you, despite being a big chaos fan and not really liking the imperium i really want the emperor to ascend to godhood

but i want him to ascend like slaanesh did. i want him to become god of bigotry, tyranny, and ignorance.

patron saint of everything the imperium worships. god of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[crimson kayak]

Basically this, giving your life for the emperor is giving your life to Order at all costs

[vale shuttle]

it's giving your life to the most fucked up order in the entire universe. it's giving your life to seething hatred

[near wasp]

At least if the big e ascends it might calm the warp down just a smidge

[crimson kayak]

Yep, ench why the "warp distorting your vision" thing, he wanted humanity to rule the cosmos, he's gonna get that alright, just without caring about things like morality in the process

[crisp heath]

Cawl implies that this is what already happened basically, and Guilliman doesn't think that whatever the Emperor is now is a monster that's entirely unlike the man he knew, but in Guilliman's case he sees it more as the Emperor revealing his "true colors"

[crimson kayak]

Veeeery similar to Vashtoor

[crisp heath]

Like the people who have actually seen the Emperor recently either think he's a pathetic man who happens to have unlimited power or this unstoppable horror

[vale shuttle]

im really scared that if they ascend the emperor he'll be like, god of order and light and goodness and it's like...

[crimson kayak]

Where he's powered by genuine curiosity and discovery , but without the locks of morality and things like that

[vale shuttle]

please no im scared

[near wasp]

Im sure thats what humanity will call him

[crimson kayak]

Bile encountering the avatar of slaneesh be like

[vale shuttle]

yeah but what im afraid is that that's also what GW will lean into.

[crisp heath]

"Sorry, I don't believe in you"

[crimson kayak]

Bile is a better Tau than the tau

[near wasp]

People refere to nurgle as the god of life and tzeentch as the god of hope. Doesnt mean those elements are the one people push

[crisp heath]

GW has been going hard on "The Emperor is at best an asshole and at worst absolutely evil" for at least a decade now

I doubt they'll suddenly shift gears and make him pure good

[vale shuttle]

i know i know i know!

[coarse pumice]

I prefer the vaguer lore they had during 2nd edition

[crimson kayak]

The imperium is just chaos but organized

[vale shuttle]

it's still a worry of mine, even tohugh it's not likely!

[coarse pumice]

you ironically had more to work with then, and otherwise it's pretty much identical to modern 40k in most regards

the story of the emperor's showdown with horus there was better than anything that came afterwards

[crimson kayak]

Tbf, didn't we only get like, ollanious pov once after that?

[coarse pumice]

I even prefer this artwork to the famous one that came later, there's more emotion in it. The later one looks like two show cards showing off their stuff, there's way more tension in this one depiste shorcomings

[pale onyx]

Horus looks like a ogryn

[crisp heath]

I want cool, eldritch Emperor stuff. I want long, purple paragraphs about the mass of rotted flesh and rusted steel on top of something that can only vaguely be called a "throne", caked in the blood of his daily sacrifices and pumping an indescribable tension into the air as every mind is drawn towards his corpse while it attempts to restore its screaming, fractured mind to life

[crimson kayak]

Meanwhile the custodes around him just seeing a skeleton standing still on a giant humming chair.

[pale onyx]

His mind is restored since the galaxy was split in two and warp energies went crazy. Not to mention the power it gave him, he was able to ressurect gulliman, spank Nurgle and set his garden on fire. He even makes his own daemons

[crimson kayak]

Wait, what new daemons did he make after psychic Awakening?

[pale onyx]

My bad on the wording I mean in general with the saints

[crimson kayak]

Oooh

And yeah, maaaaybe the legion of the dead

[coarse pumice]

celestine

[crisp heath]

I do prefer the newer one, if only because it conveys a better sense of scale (both literally and metaphorically) and also looks like something that would exist in-universe as some famous work

[pale onyx]

But yeah with his mind restored now I bet his miracles are gonna show u even more

Show up*

[coarse pumice]

the newer one is great, it's just I like the old one more

[crimson kayak]

I mean, considering now faithful people can pull out living saints levels of powers

[crisp heath]

If I didn't know what the old one was depicting I'd just be like "oh, two generic old sci-fi dudes having a fight"

[coarse pumice]

also I think the scalecreep was a mistake

[crimson kayak]

BIGGER I SAID

[crisp heath]

But if I didn't know what the new one was depicting, I'd be like "what the fuck is happening here and how do I get more"

[coarse pumice]

hugeness leads to heresy

[vale shuttle]

on one hand i think the fact that everything needs to get taller as time goes on is funny

on the other hand im really bad at painting and need big models for my shaky hands

[pale onyx]

Question, when da emperor was fighting Horus and he was about to give up a mortal rushed in to defend him and got obliterated. Was that like a average joe or a space marine or custodies

[vale shuttle]

oh i love this question!

the answer is: it depends

[crisp heath]

OH BOY

[vale shuttle]

so this piece of lore has changed so many times

at first iirc it was Ollanius Pius who was then made into a piece of background lore as an imperial saint

THEN i think they changed it to an imperial fists terminator, who was unnamed

[crimson kayak]

It's mister Ollanious "The Retcon" Pious

[vale shuttle]

THEN it became a custodian

[crisp heath]

The current 'factual' answer is that it was an immortal being who astrally projected there because he thought it was his fate to die protecting the emperor, who was once his friend. This is also the worst answer.

[vale shuttle]

AND THEN they added Ollanius Pius to the Horus Heresy as a fucking perpetual

SO NOW IT'S LIKELY WE'RE GONNA SEE HIM DO THAT IN END AND DEATH PART 2

this is one of the most inconsistent pieces of lore and i love it because of that

[crimson kayak]

Wait, was it ollanious who time traveled also to the men of iron rebellion?

[pale onyx]

Damn I was hoping it was a average joe. Normal ass human dying for the emperor and the emperor getting his second wind from this

[crimson kayak]

Because I swear I remember a novel where some cabal related fuck does so

[coarse pumice]

you see why quite a few fans thought elaborating on 30k was a bad idea now

[crisp heath]

I like the idea that Ollanius was just a mortal, one of the Imperial Army, but who exactly they were is lost to time. So that we have the whole "little guy makes a huge heroic sacrifice" angle, but Ollanius could be anyone, a man, a woman, a coward or a saint.

I like the idea that it's just a legend with some basis in fact, and every culture and individual in the imperium has a slightly different version that reflects themselves.

But making the "real" Ollanius a fucking perpetual sucks ass

[crimson kayak]

Pull a groundhog day

[queen laurel]

I swear to god being a perpetual nowadays is just you i swear to god being a perpetual in warhammer in the modern day is just you being reduced to nothing more than a plot device

[coarse pumice]

originally wasn't it just Sanguinius who the Emperor saw?

I'm not at home to break out my old rulebooks

[vale shuttle]

no that's seperate!!!

[crimson kayak]

Yep

Two loyalist death happen at that duel

[coarse pumice]

it just seems messy, in terms of a story

[vale shuttle]

the empoeror came in and saw sanguinius being all hurt. then he and horus did a big battle. then ollanius pius / imperial fist terminator / custodian jumped in the way to protect big e

[crimson kayak]

One is Sanguiboy, the other is Mr. Retconning shapeshifter

[vale shuttle]

then big e was like "oh no horus you're lost to the chaos gods im going to blow up your soul now"

and then he did that, and then the battle ends with big e fucking dying

[crisp heath]

I think it was originally a guardsman, and then it was retconned to "just a legend" when GW drew a hard line between IG and Imperial Army

[crimson kayak]

gw literally selling 30k scions but not 30k guards

[crisp heath]

I like how the first mention of the Horus Heresy was just "oh yeah there was a big Civil War back in the day but it had almost no repercussions"

And then it was just kind of expanded upon because the needed a reason to make titans fight each other

[coarse pumice]

Hmm, I think Marine Ollinous Pious might have been the first one

and he was in the fight, I just forgot him (but he was unnamed)

[crimson kayak]

If I remember right it was Marine, then custodes, then random guard, then ollanious, then back to random guard and back with powered up ollanious

[crisp heath]

Anyway to backtrack to scale for a bit: I like that important people are bigger now because I just imagine a completely heterosexual nerd finishing up a draft of Dark Angel lore and then announcing "we need more giant, greasy, muscular men. We need more giant, greasy muscular men and we need them to wrestle."

[queen laurel]

Ok so currently who is the canon savior of the emperor

Or you know the bastard who tried to save him

[crisp heath]

Ole Person, who is nicknamed Pious Ole because he's catholic, and he's a perpetual.

[crimson kayak]

So just a wwe fan

[crisp heath]

Yes, they named this fucker Old Person because he's immortal

And his defining character trait is catholic

[crimson kayak]

The pumped up version of ollanious

[crimson kayak]

Also maybe older than the emperor

Currently he's working with John Grammaticus trying to reach Terra and the final battle

Oh no wait

He's currently on terra

Forgot the end and the death got out for a second

[crisp heath]

Oh no he's definitely older than the emperor

Like there's no maybe about it

He's just a comparatively weak psyker and he chose a quiet life over guiding humanity from the shadows

They're basically foils to each other

There is another take on Persson, but I think it's cope but still a good read, ill try to find the post

That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.

When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Oll would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.

Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Oll, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.```

[crimson kayak]

I said maybe cause it's never really confirmed when the emperor is born

Also that's a really good take on new ollanious

[versed ledge]

It's that bad for humanity as a whole? Fucking Horus

[dense mortar]

Well hold up now. Lets dissect this a little bit before we say "fuck" horus. What were his central motivations? The Emperor had essentially abandoned him and the other Primarchs after the Great Crusad; left to rule the Imperium without his guidance. This was exacerbated by the massive injuries Horus endured by the Chaos Gods. Also Horus was beginning to cede from the Emperors idea and policies of ruling authoritarian, and dejecting religion. All of these issues intersected at once, allowing for the Chaos Gods to manipulate Horus.

BUT, had Big E been tending to his own flock. . . this never would have happened.

[signal bramble]

If malcador was to be believed, it was expected for some of the primarchs to turn traitor. The heresy just made it happen before they were ready.

[coarse pumice]

are most of the writings POV ones?

[dense mortar]

Horus HAD the right intentions. His execution leaves a bit to be desired. Buts its the Grim Dark. . . you either die a hero or. . . . you know the rest.

[green loom]

Any good intentions he had got twisted to shit after he got healed at the lodge

[signal bramble]

Had everything gone as planned big E would have returned to them for another restructuring.

[coarse pumice]

road to hell etc

[dense mortar]

All Im saying, is Horus is lucky Russ never found him.

By god that beautiful Space Wolf would have ripped his head off ten ways from sunday

[chilly creek]

Wrong

[copper patrol]

before the chaos roids maybe

after

fuck no

[shadow plover]

I mean Russ and Horus did fight just before the Siege in Wolfbane

[dense mortar]

Defend

[copper patrol]

chaos roids

[chilly creek]

As Russ knew victory was hopeless and the best he could hope to do was "wound" Horus

He fought Horus, knowing he couldn't win

[celest dome]

Russ lost quite a few of the Primarch Duel
And the Executioner title stood as much on Russ himself and on the Space Wolf Legion

[copper patrol]

after he got those roids I am fairly sure horus could have kicked the shit out of any primarch

[dense mortar]

All fair points, but I have a theory on this battle

Stay with me here

[chilly creek]

Russ lost the battle

[dense mortar]

Maybe in the literal sense

[shadow plover]

Russ would've died if literally a company's worth of Space Wolves hadn't sacrificed themselves to Horus to stop him from finishing Russ off

[dense mortar]

But, one could say he went toe to toe, head to head, mano y mano. And stood a fair chance. Didnt he wound Horus so bad that it made him normal again for amoment?

[shadow plover]

yes but even then he lost

[celest dome]

Full Legion vs Legion, the Space Wolf can win most of the fight, but Primarch to Primarch, Russ is middle of the pack

[dense mortar]

My point being. Russ faced him when he was hopped up on Chaos Mountain Dew. Had he got to him before that. . . well

I think Russ has the W. All day

[shadow plover]

he didn't even beat Lion

[celest dome]

Russ faced the Lion, and lost
Russ faced Vulkan, and lost
Russ is not the Duelist that people think he is, but he is endurant and willing to go to any trick to win

But he isn't the best

[dense mortar]

No two fights are the same. Plus didnt Russ purposely not fight during this?

So its not a great representation of the awesome power of Russ

[shadow plover]

Russ was the one who wanted to fight, Lion refused

but anyways wounded unchaosroided Horus still beat russ

[green loom]

That's more the effect of the spear he used, he got one lick in and was otherwise curbstomped pretty handily

And it ended up making things worse anyway

[dense mortar]

"The Emperor stood and said, 'My beloved son, my emissary, my executioner. You shall find Horus and you shall kill him. I have spoken it and it shall be so. He has betrayed me, and for that there can be no forgiveness. Betrayal is a cancer that grows and festers. It consumes everything around it, and only in death can it be cured. Horus shall die, and you shall be the one to deliver the blow. Do not fail me, Leman Russ, or you shall join him in damnation.'"

You think the Emperor is just gonna send some second class Prim to go handle this?

No sir

No sir indeed

[celest dome]

Executioner><Duelist

[chilly creek]

The Emperor is not infallible

[celest dome]

The Emperor was very fallible tbh

[chilly creek]

Otherwise the Heresy wouldn't have happened

[crimson kayak]

unrelated but the more i see boltgun gameplay the more it looks like the most realistic depiction of a lore-accurate space marine

[odd palm]

I mean Russ was never going to beat Horus, either in martial ability nor strategy.
He gave it his best attempt, taking a shot at Horus when he wasn’t 100% and after his legion had bloodied themselves against mild Mechanicum resistance and waltzing into a relatively friendly area.

But if you wanted the job done, you don’t chuck a legion desperately into the void unsupported

[dense mortar]

We are not done here. I just dont have enough lore to prove all of you wrong yet. In time

[open pumice]

yes

thats why he sent russ

i love hwot he two "executioner" primarchs

(russ & the lion)

have 0 primarch kills

[dense mortar]

In this case, is loyalty not as precious a commodity as kill count?

[open pumice]

dorn, jaghati, sanguinius, each dunked on demon primarchs

lion?

couldn't even handle a normal primarch

[celest dome]

Russ (Or the Space Wolf) might have killed one of the 2 unnamed Primarch/Legion

[dense mortar]

Ok, but name one better tracker or hunter

Which make him ideal

[open pumice]

not when you fuck off ot some unknown corner of the galaxy to spend the entire heresy fighting the night lords because muh honor

[celest dome]

Tracking the Primarch isn't a hard feat, and Crow boy is at the same level if not better

[open pumice]

lets play spot the primarch

where the fuck is the planets god worship going

he's probably right there

[celest dome]

Sending Russ/Space Wolf is the only solution, but that doesn't mean he is the best duelist of the bunch

[open pumice]

(this is a hard skill only russ can do)

[open pumice]

It has to be russ & the space wolves, a primarch is good and all, but without his legion, he's fairly inert

[dense mortar]

His Legion is him. Their fighting spirit, morale, loyalty, way of life. All are inextricably linked to Russ. They are strong, because he is strong.

The Space Wolves dont work with another Primarch

I rest my case

[open pumice]

Thats

not what i'm saying

russ sucks at killing primarchs

he lost

every single primarch duel

including against magnus

who is also

incredibly not a duelist

but his legion is actually incredibly effective

and were russ sucks at dueling, he's great at killing

just, not primarchs

[dense mortar]

Wait wait wait, lets back up to this point. How much of these losses were a result of his lack of skill vs his deep desire not to kill a brother?

[celest dome]

Yeah, Russ is an executioner, not a Duellist

[open pumice]

all of them

all of there were lack of skill

[celest dome]

Like the best Duelist outright is the Lion

[open pumice]

the wolves strat durring the heresy wasn't "lets go kill horus"

it was more along the lines of "if we eliminate as many traitor marines as possible, they loose the ability to fight effectively"

[celest dome]

Yeah, and at that they were somewhat succesfull

[open pumice]

incorrect, it is sanguinius, who actually has a primarch kill

[green loom]

Hey Curze almost died to him, with Chadmaster Corswain's help at least

[open pumice]

a daemon primarch kill mind you

[brisk beacon]

seals of purity texts be like

[celest dome]

Dorn also has killed a Primarch

[open pumice]

yes, and so has the kahn

you know who hasn't

the lion

[celest dome]

Which Primarch has Sanguinus killed ?

[green loom]

He beat Angron at the Siege

And banished him

[open pumice]

he dunked on daemon angron for the fight at eternity gate

very good fight

100% would recommend reading echoes

[odd palm]

Mmm, Russ is not a good duelist. He doesn't have to be when he is an executioner.
The threat he and his legion pose isn't really their combat effectiveness or assassination capability. The true threat the 6th pose is the authority they carry and the implied threat by holding the title of executioner.

Russ and his wolves are simply an older brother who watch their younger siblings with a hand ready to smack sense into them should they misbehave.

[green loom]

Khan nearly killed himself banishing Morty

[odd palm]

He is not dead

Oh misread

[open pumice]

khan did kill himself lmao

[celest dome]

And having killed a Primarch doesn't mean being the best Duelist, as Horus for example killed Sanguinus,

[odd palm]

Apologies gamer

[odd palm]

No, he lives

[green loom]

The real executioners were always the 1st, Russ and the wolves are just some loyal puppies who get sent around barking

[open pumice]

I would argue if you put them together in a matchup, snaguinius would dunk on the lion

[green loom]

Can't disagree

Sangy kinda has the deck stacked in his favohr

I mean he killed a Titan, on his own

[open pumice]

becaue (TE&TD spoiler) ||the emperor directly intervenes and puts his soul back, we are given the impression kahn is trying to die and be free of it all||

[open pumice]

multiple times

[copper patrol]

it's almost like being able to fly helps with killing big things

[open pumice]

lion shoulda thought of that

[odd palm]

Yeah Russ and Curze with their legions are the obvious threat to keep people in line.
The true executioners and the Lion and Alpharius, doing the more.....clandestine work you don't hear about

[open pumice]

idk what else to say

[copper patrol]

true

[open pumice]

sucks to suck

[green loom]

Wolves aren't scary, they're stupid

[dense mortar]

Russ is the only one that could survive in a remote snow baron wilderness, devoid of life. So

[celest dome]

barren

[odd palm]

Doubt

[pale onyx]

Hey guys do all traitor space marines look like this

[odd palm]

Rogal

[open pumice]

almost every primarch came from a death world

[celest dome]

And that's not really an useful trait to have
And other Primarch also got a bad hand dealt to them

[odd palm]

Fenris is no more dangerous than Inwit

[green loom]

I think it was Ferrus who more or less walked around a lavascape, surviving dark eldar and a necron construct before joining the clans

[open pumice]

it's less dangerous than caliban

[dense mortar]

Pfft, tell that to the natural sea Daemons that dwell int he ocean

[open pumice]

which had litteral daemons manifesting on it at all times

[open pumice]

(it being fenris)

[celest dome]

Caliban had those in the forest

[odd palm]

Much like Russ, Fenris' bark is worse than its bite

[dense mortar]

I will not sit here, idly, and allow you all to put my lord Russ on a mid card line up

its not happening

[celest dome]

not to say that Russ or Fenris aren't dangerous though

[odd palm]

Is this a bit?

[green loom]

Mid might be a bit too high

[green loom]

You're noticing this now?

[celest dome]

Middle of the Pack is right for them tbh

[odd palm]

Ofc, a primarch and death world respectively.
But they are far from the most dangerous beings and planets

[open pumice]

they just pretend to be

which works exceptionally well

[odd palm]

The Space Wolf fanbase is......odd

[open pumice]

against people who don't know better

[odd palm]

Hard to tell some times

[dense mortar]

A leader can often be judged by the people who follow them. In that regard, name one primarchs legion that are more loyal to them?

Space Wolves hold that title

[open pumice]

blood angels

[pale onyx]

With da lion coming back shouldn’t he have the emperors sword and spearhead the indomis crusade and let gulliman sit on terra and do the imperiums taxes since that’s his literal special primarch trait.

[open pumice]

ultramarines

[dense mortar]

Space Wolves would outright annihilate the BA's on flat land

[celest dome]

Not worse than the Iron Warrior fanbase

[odd palm]

Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Raven Guard

[green loom]

I don't think he'll stick around long enough to decide that

[open pumice]

good thing ba don't fight on flat land then

[green loom]

He'll just walk up to Guilliman

https://tenor.com/view/chaos-final-fantasy-stranger-of-paradise-final-fantasy-origin-gif-21954964

And leave

[dense mortar]

I will take Space Wolves over any chapter on open terrain. Its not even a question

[celest dome]

Guilliman has the sword, he has a shield that the Emperor used

[open pumice]

counterpoint: jump pack assault marine

fuck you, we fly now

[odd palm]

On open terrain?
Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines shoot them before they get within smelling distance

[celest dome]

I hate gif that can't be stopped

[odd palm]

Ez clap

[pale onyx]

Yeah let gulliman just sit back and do imperiums accounting and give the sword to lion

[dense mortar]

On open terrain in melee combat

[open pumice]

blood angels

[celest dome]

Why, the Lion has his own set of swords

[open pumice]

the

dedicated malee space amrines

[dense mortar]

Oh palease.

[open pumice]

or dark angels

hell

i'd even take raven guard

[pale onyx]

Cus he doesn’t have The Sword

[open pumice]

that is litteraly

their exact specialty

[odd palm]

Blood Angels, White Scars, Dark Angels have them beat.
They are more skilled and disciplined

[celest dome]

Because he doesn't need it

[pale onyx]

Oh yeah also

[dense mortar]

So now you all are going to put the Space Wolves midcard as well/

I cant do this today

[odd palm]

Beserkers pose little threat outside of the initial strike

[open pumice]

spacewolves are incredibly mid

[celest dome]

The SW are mid in battle, but on a big war they are one of the best to have available

[pale onyx]

If gulliman special primearch talent is accounting what is lions special@primearch trait

[celest dome]

Accounting isn't the Primarch talent

[open pumice]

@dense mortar i'll play you, HH 3k points, angels of baal vs wolves of fenris, no terrain, melee only

[green loom]

https://tenor.com/view/chaos-kill-chaos-gif-21988010

Lion in Nihilus

[odd palm]

Um....the Lions special talent is inscrutability I would wager

[pale onyx]

What does that mean

[open pumice]

the lions talent is having a stick up his ass so deep my ex BF would be jealous

[celest dome]

TT isn't fixed on lore, so even if i follow the sentiment I will not accept this type of discourse

[urban spire]

space marines in general are just overhyped and overpaid heavy infantry

[open pumice]

TT is a fairly accurate representation though, especially horus heresy

[pale onyx]

Then what is gullimans primearch talent

[open pumice]

it's also the closest we have to being abel to avoid the main character syndrom of the books

[odd palm]

Being impossible to know, understand, or explain.
Secrets are his currency and it works both to his benefit and detriment

[green loom]

Logistics and statesmanship in general

[pale onyx]

Oh okay doesn’t seem like the type but alright

[dense mortar]

Pfft. Fury of the Wolves, Wulfen Stone access, and the near indominable spirit of the wolves. I'd have you packing your lunch 1 hour in.

[green loom]

"reasonable" basically

[open pumice]

statescraft, its not just accoutning & logistics, but its also politicking and maneuvering the law

[celest dome]

This but Guilliman is still a great general and fighter

[pale onyx]

Oh okay

[open pumice]

true

[green loom]

He's the perfect empire builder

[open pumice]

guilliman unironically has the best talent

[pale onyx]

So he’s the emperor lite

[open pumice]

no, the emperor can't do any fo those things lmao

[celest dome]

The Emperor was a net loss

[odd palm]

I would say guilliman for statescraft and sustainable logistics.
Perturabo has Guilliman beat in terms of raw logistical ability, though skilled. It isn't sustainable and puts the system under serious strain

[open pumice]

thats not raw logistical ability

a huge part of logistics is keeping them sustainable

[celest dome]

Perti was not great at that

[open pumice]

just becaus you can strangle a hundred worlds to feed an army doesn't make you good at logistics

[pale onyx]

Then how did he run the imperium in its golden age not counting age of technology

[celest dome]

Perturabo was not great a nearly anything

[open pumice]

he didn't

[open pumice]

the high lords of terra did

[coarse pumice]

Ultramarines were 3rd founding

[celest dome]

Other people taking care of things while we did his Web Way project
Which ended up being a dud and a problem

[urban spire]

he didn't run the imperium, he just conquered a bunch of territory by military might and then it immediately fell apart when he died

[pale onyx]

Only cus of the red nerd

[open pumice]

that lore is beyond out of date lmao

[celest dome]

Not cannon anymore, they are part of the 1st Founding like the other 20 legions

[open pumice]

the high lords of terra are older than the space marine legiones

they always have run the imperiun

[celest dome]

• Malcador, the other Perpetuals...

[open pumice]

really just malcador tbh

most of the other perpetuals saw the emperor for what eh was, and fucked off

see: oll person

[celest dome]

Still have been aided by other Perpetuals, like Arda, Ollianus and oher

[open pumice]

true, but they dind't run the imperium

[pale onyx]

If they did such a good job why did gulliman kick some of them in the ass and out of their position as high lord

[open pumice]

idk you tell me what happens to politicians without oversight over 10000 years

[celest dome]

But they helped, and tbh if they had not been there much of the saving graces of the Imperium would not be there

[coarse pumice]

what's interesting about the original Ultramarines article was there are references to the inter-legion war and traitor legions being sent to the eye of terror

[open pumice]

ye, the horus heresy has been lore for a while, and very incrementally slowly built upon

[coarse pumice]

which towards the end of the edition (first edition) already had the horus heresy stuff

[celest dome]

And changed as it went on

[open pumice]

it's kinda cool to watch is evolution

[celest dome]

At first Horus was a normal human iirc

[coarse pumice]

almost everyone was

[open pumice]

the high lords that are currently on terra re not 10000 years old, but the office is

i should have been more clear about that

oop misred

[coarse pumice]

I think it was the Imperial Commander Horus which mentioned for the Titan scale game

because they had only Imperial models, they made the civil war lore

[open pumice]

yeee

[pale onyx]

Fair fair. But the emperor is still saving the imperium while being constantly in torment. Showing how even after 10k years of torment he hasn’t fallen to chaos and still looks after humanity by creating his own daemons and now actually being conscious since the galaxy was teared in half and the warp energies magnified he is actively helping by like spanking Nurgle and set his garden on fire

[open pumice]

he never ran it though

[coarse pumice]

what's really interesting is that almost all the evolution of the setting (and retcons) happened before 2nd edition was even published

[open pumice]

he was never the administrative arm of the imperium

[coarse pumice]

there's an 'intermediate' edition with the new Space Marine profiles and other things (which made Space Marines T4 and power armour 3+ saves) before 2nd edition, but using the Rogue Trader core rules

[celest dome]

Torment that he seldom caused

[coarse pumice]

and it's basically (in terms of lore) almost unchanged for years to come

[coarse pumice]

with only a few less major retcons, and then setting progression in more recent years

[pale onyx]

Yeah but never the less he could just say fuck it and die. Probably being reborn, but he chooses to suffer so the imperium can function. And that paid off since he’s now a god

[open pumice]

my mans huffing the copium

[coarse pumice]

there's part of me which wants to see how an alternate branch would have happened, closer to the original inception

[celest dome]

If I patch your wound after ripping out your organs, am I a good person, or a bad one

[pale onyx]

How so

[celest dome]

Horus did not damn us to Chaos
Malcador didn't cast us to toil in the Darkness
Only 1 is at fault, and it's the one seated on the Golden Throne

[open pumice]

The imperium's current state is the empreror's fault

quite directly

[pale onyx]

Bad one obviously but this isn’t the same thing, yeah he kind of caused it. But he could just not take responsibility and let the imperium crumble. If he actually didn’t care and was a bad person he could just drop the ball. Idk about you but suffering for 10k years to fix a problem you caused is a good thing to do. Not saying that the emperor is good, he is an asshole

[open pumice]

he doesn't care

he actively

does not give a shit abotu humans

only that his idealized version fo humanity prospers

[urban spire]

isn't it textual that the emperor is completely insane at this point

[open pumice]

he lsot his humanity a while back ye

[celest dome]

Do you think The Emperor was the good people in history, the person that helped its Kin
No, the Emperor was the tyrant, the monster of war

[pale onyx]

Then why does he make his own daemons to help in key battles. Got a second wind when a human sacrificed himself by charging Horus. And continues to suffer so the imperium can actually function which if he didn’t want too he could easily die and be reborn

[open pumice]

the emperor is cannonically ghengis khan, julius ceaser, etc

[open pumice]

does he though, or are they created by accident

[pale onyx]

He regained his consciousness after the great rift

[celest dome]

Isn't Doombreed Ghengis Khan ?

[pale onyx]

Why do you think that

[open pumice]

why do you think he does it on purpose

[urban spire]

yeah and when guilliman spoke with him he was completely out of his gourd, speaking with several different voices and shit

[pale onyx]

Cus he wants humanity to prosper

[open pumice]

potentially, but the point remains

[urban spire]

anyway the emperor's intent doesn't really matter compared to his actions

[open pumice]

does he though

[pale onyx]

Yeah but after during godblight when he slapped Nurgle he was fully conscious, he’s back

[open pumice]

he seems to always guide his primarchs not for whats best for humanity, but what is best for big E

[urban spire]

after during

[pale onyx]

During*

[open pumice]

Injects copium

no uys

the emperor is a good guy

just listen

[urban spire]

idk

[open pumice]

i know he damned humanity to its terrible fate

[urban spire]

he was never written as a good guy

[open pumice]

i know he's a crue oppressing tyrant

[urban spire]

the emperor is an ends justify the means kind of guy, and sometimes to him the ends are billions of human lives

[open pumice]

I know he's an active propoment of genocide

but he made the hot big tiddy milf demon

[pale onyx]

He is not a good guy he has committed horrible acts and genocide

[open pumice]

so he's gotta be good!

[open pumice]

i am aware

[open pumice]

importantly, his ends never justify his means

[pale onyx]

But he is doing everything he can for humanity. I think if he was selfish he would of just died and then be reborn

[open pumice]

my homie could have circumvented the entire heresy had he just

decided to give a shit

[open pumice]

he can't

the golden throne won't let him die

it's more than just a chair

it is actively keeping him alive

[pale onyx]

He literally just needs to send a message to the custodies to end him

[open pumice]

I am 100% certain given th choice the emperor would die

[urban spire]

his intent literally doesn't matter, he's like an abusive parent who's convinced themselves what they're doing is good for their kid, when it's really just traumatizing them more and more

(the kid is humanity)

[pale onyx]

Or summon one of his daemons to do it

[green loom]

Would they be able to bring themselves to do that though

[urban spire]

(but also the primarchs)

[open pumice]

you think they would follow that lmao

[pale onyx]

Or both

[open pumice]

that is what valdor is actively trying to do

[open pumice]

he's got one

he's just got celestine

and like

make the sanguinor

which are both

entirely autonomus entities

[pale onyx]

I think they would if the emperor asked them directly

[open pumice]

he doesn't "summon" them like the chaos gods doo

[urban spire]

he's got sabbat too doesn't he

[pale onyx]

Plus if they couldn’t do it summon celestian

[coarse pumice]

The Emperor knows they rely on him for guidance. They still believe in him. They think he can lead them from this trap. They are wrong.

[celest dome]

There are bunch of lesser Emperor Daemon, that aren't really named or useful

[open pumice]

not how celestine works

[open pumice]

true

[pale onyx]

The custodies would 100% pull the plug if asked by the emperor without a doubt. Or if he didn’t care the emperor wouldn’t of sat on it in the first place

[open pumice]

he didn't sit on the throne, dorn put him there

dorn put him there after the emperor was nearly killed by horus

that was not a consentual transaction

[celest dome]

And his plan was on putting Magnus on it, not being the one on it

[pale onyx]

Right but it’s the emperor guiding warp travel still so he could off stopped that and yet again send a message to the custodies to do it

[pale onyx]

Yeah Ik

[open pumice]

also not how the htorne works

the throne isn't consentual

[celest dome]

The Astronomicon does that, not the Emperor itself

[open pumice]

you sit on it, you are now tied to it

your soul now powers the astronomicon, whether you like it or not

[open pumice]

the custodes would likely chalk it up to wapr influence

[pale onyx]

Okay well if he was truly selfish I’m sure he could muster enough energy to end himself one way or another

[signal bramble]

The throne was reconfigured before big E was placed on it.

To function as a mix of life support and Astro battery.

[pale onyx]

They take every message from the emperor seriously

[dense mortar]

Big E was not placed on it. He knowling sat on it

[open pumice]

not at the end of the heresy

[dense mortar]

Bc he is benevolent

[signal bramble]

He was horribly injured by Horus at that point, so he had to be physically placed on it technically. Dorn did it.

[dense mortar]

Just like the Space Wolves DECIDED to ALLOW the inquisition to study the geneseed after months of deliberation

[celest dome]

Zerokewl doesn't subscribe the to the lore, but to his own version of the lore

[pale onyx]

I wouldn’t go that far, he just wants humanity to prosper and sitting on the throne was the only option for that

[open pumice]

yeah, all 2 a millenium, and theyre always super vague

if the emperor just went

"hey longinus, kill me pls"

100% they would think thats malign influence

[signal bramble]

Big E never intended to sit on the throne anyway. Magnus was supposed to be the battery.

[coarse pumice]

*Rogal Dorn enters the chamber. Horror fills him as he sees the mutilated form of the Emperor and the shrivelled husk inside the warmaster's armour. He curses himself for taking so long to fight through the Chaotic hordes. He knows now why their attacks ceased and why the ship is reverting to normal.

He rushes to the Emperor's side, detecting the faint pulse of life. Perhaps there is yet hope. Perhaps the ruler of the Imperium may live. Dorn will do his best to ensure it.*

[signal bramble]

In the ideal scenario, the 1k sons would have been responsible for guarding the throne and probably would have helped fuel it as Astartes psykers.

[celest dome]

In an ideal scenario the Pharos would have replaced the Astronomicon, or the Web Way project wouldn't have been a Dud

[pale onyx]

Even if you are right somehow and he couldn’t muster enough energy or send messages to end himself. He’s literally a god now and has the power to do so. But he helped gulliman and revived him because he wants humanity to prosper.

[signal bramble]

So Celestine, every time she dies, she has to recover her memories, fight against the temptations of the four Chaos gods, reclaim her armor and weapons, and then finds herself where ever she is most needed. Every single time.

[dense mortar]

GW doesnt subscribe to their own lore. Why should I? 😛

[signal bramble]

We should act based on what we know at the time.

[celest dome]

And there has been no time where the Emperor was benevolent

[dense mortar]

Agreed. And I KNOW that Russ and the Space Wolves are the baddest things walking from one end of the universe to the other.

[pale onyx]

That’s true

[signal bramble]

Shame a lot of their books portray them as goddamn idiots sometimes.

[open pumice]

it's not a stretch to say that him stepping in to intervene on behalf of guilliman was not a "help humanity prosper" thing but a "oh shit if bobby G dies, were all fucked"

[dense mortar]

Bravery and Idiotics can often be confused I suppose

[open pumice]

its ok friend, were all a bit special

[signal bramble]

No I mean they act petulant and obnoxious just for the story to happen rather than any motivation that would befit them.

[pale onyx]

Nope it is a stretch to say that. Because at that point he already had the power of a god

[open pumice]

he has the power of a god according to a few excerpts and the ecchlesiarchies teaching

man man really subscribed to the in universe propoganda

more likely

the emperor is an alpha+ level psyker

hence why he was able to step in to the warp and fuck shit up in nurgles garden

[pale onyx]

It makes sense he has the power of a god/ is a god. Trillions pray to him givi him power. Great rift increased warp energy greatly making him more powerful. And he slapped Nurgle himself and set his garden on fire, only a god could do that

[signal bramble]

Before you say “god” you have to define what that means because the term means a lot of different things in the setting. The chaos gods are supremely warp entities given a greater level of consciousness. Being called “gods” and that belief makes them stronger.

[pale onyx]

Slapping a god is only a thing a god can do

[open pumice]

no, alpha level psyekrs cna absolutely do that

[pale onyx]

No they cannot, they could set his garden on fire but not hurt Nurgle directly

[urban spire]

he didn't kill a god did he

[open pumice]

Source

[pale onyx]

Godblight literally spells it out for us the emperor is a god or has the power of one

[open pumice]

no he just backhanded nurgle

[signal bramble]

The dark imperium novel.

[open pumice]

ye he has the power of what humans would think a god is

i.e.

[celest dome]

Alpha + Psyker are such a vast stretch of power setting, it's basically every being that is higher than the scale they use

[open pumice]

he's an alpha + level psyker

fighting for his own interestes

[urban spire]

did he actually harm nurgle in any meaningful way?

[open pumice]

no

[pale onyx]

Nurgle is a god. Nurgle gets slapped by another god. A alpha level psyker would not be able to do that where does it state they could do that. And we all know belief gives power or chaos gods and trillions for 10k years been praying to the big E so it makes sense

[open pumice]

where does it state only a god can fuck with warp entities

[celest dome]

The God are Alpha + beings

[signal bramble]

You have to define hurt. Losing portions of the garden might weaken nurgle slightly as he was also being attacked by tzeentch at the same time.

[pale onyx]

Not any warp entity. A chaos god. Where does it state a alpha psyker can punch Nurgle?

[celest dome]

And there have been time where mortal harmed the God in the Past, both Ascended Human like Sigmar, and normal human

[open pumice]

anyone can punch nurgle

[pale onyx]

If that was the case why hasn’t it been done before

[signal bramble]

The chaos gods domain of power is vast and if some part of that is lost or destroyed than, in theory, it should have some effect on them.

[open pumice]

get to him lmao

[celest dome]

Skarbrand punched Khorne

[urban spire]

wait seriously? all this time i've heard people hyping up the emperor punching nurgle and not only did he not harm nurgle, he wasn't even doing all the work?

[celest dome]

Sigmar burned Slaanesh iirc

[pale onyx]

And have it actually hurt him and do something

[open pumice]

no he was not

[open pumice]

it didn't do anything

at all

[pale onyx]

Nurgle fucked off from its

[celest dome]

That girl from the Wizard of Oz scared Tzeentch

[open pumice]

it burned his metaphysical garden long enough for bobby G to dip out

[signal bramble]

Yes really. Tzeentch used the opportunity to attack Nurgle’s garden and decrease Nurgle’s domain at the same time.

Or rather was attacking nurgle at the time already.

I also have a theory that tzeentch was behind a lot of the dark imperium setbacks for nurgle in the first place.

There is some evidence to make it possible.

[celest dome]

At the Great game, the Emperor isn't a player, buta pawn

[signal bramble]

In the novels there’s a girl believed blessed by the emperor as her power was changing the corrupted nurgle stuff back to normal.

I believe she was either an agent of tzeentch or he was acting through her as a part of his plan to attack the garden.

[green loom]

Nurgle's garden being burned is like a character beating an Avatar of Khaine

[signal bramble]

And while tzeentch launched his assault, it caused a rift between morty and nurgle as morty disobeyed grandfather to kill Guilliman as nurgle was recalling his forces to repel tzeentch’s attack.

[pale onyx]

Yeah but going toe to toe with a chaos god is good level shit. And making daemons is god level shit

[signal bramble]

Then while tzeentch is attacking the garden Guilliman has a path opened to him to set the garden on fire.

[urban spire]

you can actually make a solid argument that sabbat is a daemon of tzeentch rather than a saint

just on the topic of tzeentch

[signal bramble]

Doesn’t have to be a daemon either, could just be a pawn as well.

[green loom]

Anything can be tzeentch if you cope hard enough

[signal bramble]

:p

[urban spire]

well she came back from the dead and did so by possessing people

and her symbology features the number 9 pretty heavily

she has a strong two headed bird motif when she's going beast mode, which sure that's the aquila, but we know other two headed birds who like the number 9

i'm not saying she's definitely in league with the god of hope, just saying there's a strong argument to be made

[green loom]

I say cope because you can grasp at straws and come to stupid conclusions and it'd still be in character for tzeentch crap

[coarse pumice]

"Dib dib dib, dob dob dob."

— Warhammer 40,000

[urban spire]

you say cope, i say hope

[green loom]

Cope

(you're supposed to say hope)

[urban spire]

ope

pope

fuck

nah, maybe later

[open pumice]

he didn't go toe to toe

[celest dome]

Hasn't Sabbath shown power that are reallytied to only the Emperor and other Living Saint ?

[open pumice]

he backhanded nurgle while his attention was turned, and then set his lawn on fire

[celest dome]

Shanked him and then ran away

[open pumice]

exactly

[celest dome]

And Nurgle practically didn't notice

[open pumice]

also exactly

[green loom]

You also can't really go toe to toe with something that has no toes and isn't really a physical thing

[shadow plover]

Threw a molotv cocktail through his window

[open pumice]

not even through his window, more like onto his back porch

it was his favorite porch

but still only his porch

[green loom]

Through his window, but the building is made of asbestos

[shadow plover]

It was his greenhouse

[celest dome]

And everything regrew right away

[shadow plover]

Noo my tomatoes -Nurgle

[open pumice]

unironically

the tzeench incursion into nurgles relm did more harm to nurgle than what big E did

big E was just trying to get bobby G the hell out of dodge

He's just a strong enough psyker t make some decent warp ripples, absolutely not a full fledged god

[celest dome]

And even in the Warp, the Chaos God are just the biggest kids on the Block, there are other, much darker things

[copper patrol]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/813175730518753300/1071586471355621417/BDCE20E5-FF5B-4798-8D00-EA81C1B1C446.gif

[storm jungle]

Don't get me wrong id like something to happen but all this primarch return hype is basically the same as Guilliman's awakening.

[urban spire]

it is kind of lame

[storm jungle]

Yeah its more or less a setting with no stakes.

Tyranids being a newer "big threat" has about the same weight as the necrons being the "big threat" when 9th edition launched.

All of the development of the Pariah Nexus happened in White Dwarf. Silent King nuked a planet with his spaceship and cut a Titan in half. It ended with the statement that Guilliman himself is going to the Nexus in order to sort things out but since the White Dwarf articles changed focus to covering Arks of Omen we have no idea what happened.

[open pumice]

The pariah nexus being dropped kinda sucked

but

such is the fate of a setting where it's goal is to sell plastic minis

ofcourse you're not going to have a galaxy ending threat come up any time soon

not while models are being sold

they already pulled the end itmes once, and it was by far one of the least popular decisions they've ever made

just like any setting thats tied to a game

if the setting actually had stakes

and was about to end

it would drastically loose popularity

they definitely misshandle it a bit

[dense mortar]

Not if it was Russ who returned. Imagine the implications. Arguably the strongest primarch returning from his sojourn to retrieve a cure for the Emperor from the Tree of Life

[pale onyx]

Yeah but when gulliman awoke he reformed the imperium and started a new crusade giving the imperium actual hope. Which is quite the feat for 40k universe

[crystal forum]

what i'd like to see is a crisis that wasn't mostly just involving humanity. with the arrival of xenos like the tau and the kin to some extent who don't fit in the mould of evil non-imperium we could see humanity making temporary alliances. Especially the eldar and humans finally working together in some way since girlyman was brought back

[odd palm]

Arguably the strongest Primarch? Strongest at what exactly?

[crystal forum]

Honestly what i really want to see is other species finally getting lore depth

[dense mortar]

OH lets take inventory shall we? Strongest duelist. Strongest Tracker. Strongest Loyalty. Strongest Legion

[pale onyx]

I’d love to see a crisis where it’s the tau but the crisis is mass extinction via tyranids eating. And they go poof

[near wasp]

Hes not the strongest duelist

[odd palm]

Is this a cope list?

[dense mortar]

Ive already proven that wrong to a room full of people earlier today

[near wasp]

Lion

[crystal forum]

what does being good at dueling do for administrating an empire

[odd palm]

In terms of loyalty he is not the strongest, but tied for 1st with the Lion and Rogal

[green loom]

I'd love to see a Tau centred narrative to give them more auxiliaries, maybe they do some AI stuff and it gets out of control
The Admech get wind of it and some zealots go all murder on them as a result

[crystal forum]

guilliman was arguably the best choice for being the big boss since he had a lot of experience

[pale onyx]

And that his primarch ability is accounting

[dense mortar]

and where are Lion and Rogal now?

[odd palm]

Where is Russ?

[near wasp]

The lions back sooo

[crystal forum]

yeah he's also literally born with the ability to rule lol

[dense mortar]

SEARCHING FOR A CURE FOR BIG E. Loyalty

[celest dome]

In the Warp doing doggo stuff

[odd palm]

The Lions back and working.
Russ is running around and Rogal likely died in service to the imperium

[crystal forum]

rogal will be back with a cool new cyber arm

[odd palm]

As for strongest legion?
It's hard to contest the UMs supremacy

[celest dome]

Dorn went from KIA to MIA, he most likely is alive again

[dense mortar]

Space Wolves will handle anyone on flat terrain in melee range

[odd palm]

And lose in all others

[pale onyx]

Which primearch was it that they found his body but not head? Cus he’s probably still alive and will come back with a cyborg body

[crystal forum]

ferrus?

[pale onyx]

Sounds right.

[near wasp]

Somebody has his head

[crystal forum]

i doubt it since ferrus died extremely quickly in the horus heresy

[pale onyx]

Which could be alive connected to a machine

[near wasp]

Its a skull

Hes mega dead

[odd palm]

Yeah Ferrus, his head was taken as a trophy for Horus and some of the his body was recovered and turned into some perverse statue to be worshipped

[pale onyx]

Ah damn

[crystal forum]

ferrus was just a throwaway primarch honestly

[green loom]

He was also butchered by the traitor marines

[odd palm]

Sadly

[crystal forum]

he had a cool gimmick tbh

[near wasp]

Also russ never killed any of his brothers and only failed to do so again and again. Rogal killed alpharius.

[pale onyx]

So then who is likely to come back next after the lion?

[crystal forum]

lots of primarchs actually

[dense mortar]

He didnt fail. Thats a strong word. Deep down, due to his loyalty and compassion for his brothers, didnt want to kill them. Thus was unable too.

[near wasp]

He failed

[pale onyx]

Maybe the salamander primearch is next. His legion almost found all the artifacts

[crystal forum]

even khan could come back

[pale onyx]

We have 4 traitor primearchs. Now we need 4 primearchs.

[crystal forum]

it would be funny if lion was brought back only to die to angron

[odd palm]

Based GW?

[pale onyx]

Yeah kinda sucks that the traitor primearchs can come back many times but loyalist primearchs only get one death (most of the time)

[crystal forum]

you could argue that girlyman and lion both had a free revive

[dense mortar]

"The Wolf Lord came at him like a whirlwind, and the lion was hard-pressed to withstand his furious assault. Despite his battle prowess, the Wolf Lord was a force beyond his understanding. Russ was like a storm made flesh, and though the primarch of the First Legion was by no means a weakling, he had never before been matched against a foe so relentless and seemingly invincible. The two of them battled back and forth, the sound of their blows ringing out across the mountains. The forest shook and the ground beneath them trembled as they fought. Each blow struck with the force of a thunderbolt, and each parry or dodge was an act of superhuman skill and agility."

Power. Strength.

[near wasp]

If he was loyal to the emperor which is the only loyality that matters, he would of killed angron, he would of killed horus. He failed to do his duty. Failed, and him trying to get the tree of life is his pitiful attempted at redemption. He was an attack dog who couldnt even do his duty.

[celest dome]

Damn it still going on ? Really like a dog on a bone here

[pale onyx]

Actually gully had two. His awakening and revival in godblight

[crystal forum]

oh true

[pale onyx]

Yeah now that the big Echas the powers of a god loyalist primearchs can actually just be revived too like the traitor ones lol

Big E has*

[crystal forum]

"i have the power of god and plot armour on my side!"

[pale onyx]

Yeah and traitor primearchs only have god on their side

[crystal forum]

see this is why i like stories that don't involve big name characters

you never know who will die

[dense mortar]

The whole Angron business was a calculated battle decision

Killing Angron would have only deepend the rift between the Space Wolves and Eaters. So he tried to reason. The man is damn near a saint.

[crisp heath]

Emps doesn't seem capable of infinite ressurections, seeing as he doesn't actually seem to turn mortals into daemons. There's usually some kind of cost with being resurrected by big E

[near wasp]

You cant reason with angron.

[crystal forum]

attempting to reason with the guy that's constantly in full rage mode

[crisp heath]

Like, Celestine has to earn her ressurrections and it's implied that she's slowly becoming something she wasn't before

[pale onyx]

Yes but he gets pleasure from killing and being covered in blood. Isn’t pleasure slaneesh turf?

[crystal forum]

you're asking too many questions about chaos

[dense mortar]

AND, lets make a point of order here. They were separated. Russ was ready to end him quite honestly.

[pale onyx]

I am 100% loyalist fan but I’m asking the real questions here

[crystal forum]

chaos just kinda works

[odd palm]

I think it's less pleasure and more so a brief pause from the agonising pain

[crystal forum]

isn't khorne all about honorable combat and all that? angron wants to kill pretty much everything

[green loom]

lol

Honor

[odd palm]

Blood must flow and skulls must be claimed

[green loom]

Living champion is literally called "The Betrayer"

[crystal forum]

real subtle

[uneven temple]

He honorably betrayed his Legion and dumpstered thousands of them bro

[green loom]

Khorne worshippers individually can have some sort of honor code ig

And Khorne will dump on you for psyker stuff

Or at least sorcerers

[crystal forum]

it was a trust exercise

[green loom]

But Khorne himself only really cares about blood and skulls, less how you get them

[near wasp]

Also can we talk about russ's biggest failure. The burning of prospero. Which he was to kill magnus, lost a heart, and when he found out he was tricked, he wasnt upset he nearly killed his brother, not upset that he turned a powerful ally into a powerful enemy. He was upset he was tricked. Also not to mention his blatant hypocritcy of psykers. Hes no better than mortarian.

[odd palm]

Russ is a trained dog, not necessarily bright or effective

[dense mortar]

Ok, I will acknowledge. . . as our Lord Russ has, that Prospero had some mistakes in it.

[celest dome]

Not in current lore since ages

[rose thorn]

With thsi new edition what do you want to get more lroe?

[green loom]

Tau and Nids

[near wasp]

I get you like the wolves but every primarch has there flaws and mistakes. Claiming russ as the best when he single handedly stomped out any remaining hope of recovering the webway

[green loom]

Tau need their auxiliaries fleshed out

[celest dome]

Admech

[crystal forum]

it really does feel like all the gods have some slaanesh in them these days

[green loom]

Until that happens the faction will just be background dressing for Farsight and his adventures

[open pumice]

Zero is shit posting

[crystal forum]

space dwarves

[rose thorn]

I hope GSC gets more lore with this being the nids edition

[green loom]

We should also kill farsight

[rose thorn]

Why tho

[green loom]

That way they'll HAVE to write about someone else

[open pumice]

Custodes, i do enjoy me some stodes posting

Fuck off

[near wasp]

Always custodes

[open pumice]

Thats it, thats my respinse to they should kill farsight
Just fuck off

[celest dome]

Then they start talking about a Human Tau ally as the main Tau character

[open pumice]

Obly faction that matters

[crystal forum]

i kinda like it when the custodes are this barely understood defenders of terra

[open pumice]

Agreed, but i want more cool Custodes battles

I dont want background lore i want more epic custodes combat

[green loom]

They need something good, and more auxiliary races

[crystal forum]

i feel like realistically they should win every single confrontation but they just get nerfed to fit the narrative

[green loom]

Welcome to the Avatar Effect

[open pumice]

Not really, they have their weaknesses

[crystal forum]

like what

[open pumice]

Simply being few in number

Its surprisingly important for a battlefield to have numbers

See my earlier regards to primarchs being innefective on their own

[crystal forum]

not for space marines when their whole shtick is being a strike force

[urban spire]

nah that high fantasy shit belongs in the past

[open pumice]

Yes a strike force

Cuatodes will fight with maybe lile

3 at a time tops

[crystal forum]

just 3?

[open pumice]

Oore wise yeah

If your lucky

They are usually just alone

They arent an army

[crystal forum]

how strong are they canonically anyways

are they even comparable to space marines

[open pumice]

Less than primarchs but more than space marines

Depends on the writer tbh

[near wasp]

Like 4 stodes beat 1 million tyranids

[open pumice]

Incorrect

[near wasp]

Then correct me

[crystal forum]

with what? their fists?

[open pumice]

5 cuatodian wardens fought to a man against an small incursion from a hive fleet tendril

In a highly defensive position

[crystal forum]

did they win

[celest dome]

If we had Bloodbowl 40k, then maybe Russ would be the best Primarch. Otherwise not really. He isn't the worst. Bit he isn't the best either

[near wasp]

The stodes won yeah with 1 survivor

[open pumice]

Yes, but only one cuatodian survived

[crystal forum]

bro wtf just send the custodes to stop tyrannids lol

[open pumice]

They were also wardens

[urban spire]

i have a question about the tyranids

[open pumice]

Whixh are greater than your average custodian

[green loom]

We all know how scary the mods are, just makes sense

[urban spire]

why does the ground battle matter to them at all?

[open pumice]

Food

[urban spire]

if they win the space battle they eat the planet

[crisp heath]

Best loyal primarch? In terms of competence, Khan, in terms of fun, Russ. I am correct and will not be argued with.

[urban spire]

if they lose the space battle they can't eat the planet

[celest dome]

Aren't the Warden the Chapter Master equivalent for the Custodes

[near wasp]

Because sometimes there are planetary shields and stuff

[green loom]

That's how they eat the planet

[crystal forum]

they eat the remains of the dead from ground battles anyways so what do they lose

[open pumice]

Actually no

If they loose the space battle they can and fo still eat the planet

They dont use co ventional fleet tactics

Whwre you establish orbital superiority before performing a landing

They charge head first into a planet and shit out spores

Eventually one of them is going to find purchase

Besides

Just because you win a space battle

Does that mean a planet is going to turn belly ip and let you eat them

[crisp heath]

Or they create 1 zoanthrope and send right into the single most precious and defended part of the defender's home and completely asspull their complete destruction

[green loom]

Yeah the food has a nasty tendency to fight back

[urban spire]

well i mean, tyranids do suck all the breathable atmosphere off of a planet as part of the process so

yeah kinda?

[crisp heath]

I'm going to be real here, I love nids and want them to have as many Ws as possible, but even I think Doom of Malan'tai was cheap

[crystal forum]

you'd think the whole galaxy would have an interest in keeping them at bay

[urban spire]

like how do you stop a hive fleet from eating a planet from the ground?

[celest dome]

There isn't a way to do that though

[open pumice]

They dont

If nids win the space battle, they win the planet

[urban spire]

right

so why does the ground battle matter much at all?

[open pumice]

They also dont often win space duels

[crystal forum]

arent nids pretty weak in regards to space battles

[celest dome]

Divert the Hive fleet, either by giving it a better target, use a Warp storm iirc or use the Necron

[copper patrol]

looks cooler

[urban spire]

nids seem like almost entirely a battlefleet gothic sorta scale threat

[signal bramble]

So you have an intact planet when you drive them back.

If they destroy all your resources and infrastructure then what does it matter?

[open pumice]

Chitinus mass is cool and all, doesnt stop a round the size of a prius

[signal bramble]

Plus if you make the nids spend more biomass it’s less they can throw at the next planet.

[near wasp]

Necrons go brrrrr

[urban spire]

hey what happens when tyranids find themselves on the receiving end of a boarding action?

[crystal forum]

you want to board tyranids?

[copper patrol]

[near wasp]

You dont want to board a tyranid ship

[urban spire]

yeah but like

[crisp heath]

Tyranids give up a planet when they realize they will never financially recover from this

[near wasp]

Thats the worst thing you could do

[urban spire]

boarding is part of the tabletop right?

[crystal forum]

that's crazier than boarding a space hulk

[signal bramble]

This to. If a planet will cause a net loss or the hive mind decides enough is enough they’ll withdraw. But they will seed the planet with things like gene stealers.

[urban spire]

boarding is basically the only thing you can do with a space hulk

[open pumice]

Boarding party looses

[crisp heath]

I'm not too versed on what happens in the tabletop, but if you board a tyranid vessel it pretty much just starts digesting you

[open pumice]

They can be ahot to death

[urban spire]

that's irresponsible

what if there's cool shit in there

[crystal forum]

in space hulks you have to deal with genestealers. imagine what you face in an active nid vessel

[urban spire]

do you actually know?

has anyone ever tried?

[celest dome]

Happend a few time in the lore, some SM Psyker tried to mess with it or something

[arctic talon]

if you board a nid ship

its gona suck

[crystal forum]

i think there's a story of people boarding one and finding captured prisoners or something

[arctic talon]

you're going to get swarmed

by every thing they have

on board

Warriors. gaunts. genestealers, tyrant guards

[crisp heath]

It's worse than that

[celest dome]

The wall are alive

[crisp heath]

The ship itself is alive and will begin the process of digestion. You'll be covered in stomach acid and enzymes

[urban spire]

i thought tyranid ground forces were just stored as goo on board the ships

[open pumice]

That xan be quickly formed up

[crystal forum]

there's still maintenance crews on the ships

[near wasp]

They still have some tyranids in there constructed form

[arctic talon]

they have a few constructe

and can construct more on the fly

[crisp heath]

Also, tyranid diseases are way more common on tyranid ships so even if you aren't immediately dissolved or manage to fight back, your body will be turned against you and be killed at the cellular level

[crystal forum]

tbh thought the nids would be very caught by surprise

you'd maybe have a grace period before they noticed

[arctic talon]

^

if you board a nid ship

go fast or else

[crisp heath]

Actually, can you just lob a virus bomb at a tyranid ship and kill it?

[arctic talon]

Why would you

waste of a virus bomb

but yes

[open pumice]

Making a servicable boarding repeller force od nids rakes monites at best

[crystal forum]

i dont think virus bombs work that well in space

[echo vault]

scariest thing about tyranids is being trapped in them and being melted and shit its fucking disturbing and not just haha vore, shit like that happened in the 80s transformers movie and it scared the shit out of me

[crisp heath]

Old tyranid ships are more valuable to them than old Imperial ships are to the Imperium

[arctic talon]

Also if nids board you

that also sucks super hard

[urban spire]

well virus bombs are made to obliterate all life on a planet without harming the infrastructure, it is a bit overkill for a single ship i think

[near wasp]

A tyranid would prolly just evolve immunity to the bomb

[arctic talon]

Since they pour acid in

[urban spire]

you don't have to exterminatus a hive ship you can just shoot it until it dies

[open pumice]

Even custodians would just die if they boarded a nid vessel

[crisp heath]

A bioship can be millions, possibly even billions of years old and I don't think there's any evidence that they can actually make new ones

[crystal forum]

yeah hive ships arent particularly strong

[crisp heath]

like, that's an atypically huge bioconstruct

[crystal forum]

hey would be interesting if the information to produce one is so complexe that no tyranid queen even has access to it in our galaxy

i can imagine that they have massive brain vaults to store information

[crisp heath]

I like to imagine that bioships are the actual, original and naturally evolved tyranid species so they aren't "made", they're just born the old fashioned way when two of them hook up

[near wasp]

Well the tyranids are a hivemind, so that wouldnt make sense

[crisp heath]

no evidence to support that, just think it's cool

[near wasp]

I was trying to reply to jay

[crystal forum]

but aren't the ones in the milky way galaxy just a small part of a main fleet?

[crisp heath]

Tyranids are still individuals and have access to different information and can even have different opinions on what to do with that information

[crystal forum]

we know that tyrannids who are cut off from the queens kinda go bezerk

wouldn't massive distances in space make the hive mind less efficient

[crisp heath]

Exactly how the hivemind works is a bit inconsistent, but it mostly seems like it's a huge network with it's own will that just tells the tyranids what to do, but the tyranids themselves also have their own mind but just get disorganized and take a massive hit to IQ if they're cut off

[near wasp]

The hivemind is the single strongest psychic force in the setting

[crystal forum]

but they ignore chaos because why not

[near wasp]

They dont ignore choas

They created a hive fleet just to deal with choas

Its just fighting chaos almost always ends in a net loss

[crystal forum]

huh i thought hey didn't use the warp

[near wasp]

Zoanthropes are tyranid psykers

Also the tyrnids project a massive manifestation in the warp.

[crisp heath]

Tyranids also got hit hard by the Great Rift

[storm jungle]

What hope

the Imperium is as bad as ever

in the new trailer he literally calls it a rotting mess too

[crisp heath]

Hive mind was knocked unconscious when the Rift opened and all the organisms went feral, some still haven't been recovered

[celest dome]

And still getting worse than ever

[storm jungle]

Late reply because I was in cod zombies 😔

[crisp heath]

Oh is there a 10th ed trailer out?

[near wasp]

The big e also got knocked out by the great rift

[storm jungle]

Yee with Nids vs Ultras

[celest dome]

Is it still fun as the older versions ?

[storm jungle]

We played Black Ops 1 + Five so yes its still great

anything past BO2/3 is just terrible so lol

https://tenor.com/view/richard-nixon-five-zombies-cod-gif-25428314

[celest dome]

The last thing that I remember about CoD Zombie was that Alcatraz map

[green loom]

Zobies

https://tenor.com/view/jfk-black-ops-zombies-black-ops-zobies-zombies-gif-21645919

[storm jungle]

JFK is the Emperor we needed

if Horus went traitor he'd turn that cabinet wall and bust a cap in his ass no problem

[plush mason]

lol

[crisp heath]

Ok watched the trailer, that Carnifex seemed a bit small but holy shit did he wreck shop. Proud of him

[shadow plover]

It was the classic screamer killer

[celest dome]

Was it a Caenifex ?

Aren't they different thing

[shadow plover]

Yes and no

[crisp heath]

I thought even the old Carnifex's were bigger than that though

[shadow plover]

Old screamer killer was merged into the carnifex kit when they came out

[crisp heath]

screamer-killers are technically a subtype of carnifex but it's mostly just a term for the older model

[shadow plover]

Now it seems it's coming back as it's own unit and kit

[crisp heath]

They should've kept the 9th ed animation team for trailers, but maybe they're busy with pariah nexus. The Tyranids looked like puppets and I chuckled when the gants ran at like mach 20 at the termie

[pale onyx]

It’s still bad but it’s better than it was before structure wise. Like the change of high lords of terra, getting rid of corruption and actually taking the reigns of the imperium. And his indominis crusade is a huge success. The imperium is still fucked but it is slowly stabilizing with gully mans help

[storm jungle]

Its really not

Also corruption is still rampant

Also the indomitus crusade didnt do much aside from securing strategical assets

And its never going to stablize.

Guilliman literally says this.

[celest dome]

Since the Emperor has taken power it's has been downhill

[storm jungle]

This isn't really the Empire of Man in fantasy where Karl Franz can pass an edict and more or less stabilize his nation in a few months.

This is a rotting corrupt empire thats scattered across the entire galaxy with every single planetary ruler or person in charge hungry for power. Guilliman can never fix this and he has said when he first woke up that it would have been better to let Horus destroy the Imperium than to see what it has become now.

No matter what Guilliman does innocent people will always die in the billions for unnecessary reaosns.

[green loom]

It's pretty blatantly spelled out at the Siege

[storm jungle]

^

[green loom]

The Imperium dies there

Ever since then it's just been a very, very drawn out Death Rattle

[storm jungle]

The Emperor himself also says this yeah.

[pale onyx]

Okay fair enough but the big e has his consciousness back. And god like powers/is a god, that has to be a huge boon to the imperium

[storm jungle]

This is why if you want hope you go worship Sigmar

[celest dome]

And Mankind had already died long before

[storm jungle]

hes still senile

he communicates through little magic tricks and even thats barely

[pale onyx]

He seemed pretty conscious in god blight

[green loom]

It's just a captain going down with his ship

[celest dome]

Why do people think him being a "god" or getting his consciousness back is a good thing ?

[green loom]

They're a dying and cornered animal, basically in a permanent Last Stand scenario

[storm jungle]

He has like 10 different voices yelling at guilliman at once

even gman is like "What the fuck"

[green loom]

The other factions aren't much better, but that's the entire point of the setting yeah?

[storm jungle]

Pretty much

the only victors are either gonna be the Necrons, Nids or Orks

[green loom]

Chaos gods can't really lose, but they might not win
According to Farsight iirc, they'll just fuck off to another reality or something kek

[pale onyx]

How is he not conscious? He resurrected g man, burned nurgles garden and slapped Nurgle and spoke to g man and Nurgle

[green loom]

Pays to be an eldritch plot device ig

[green loom]

Would you really trust a psychic powerhouse who has been in nonstop agony for the last ten thousand years to be perfectly lucid

Vulkan went insane after burning up in reentry
Emps has gone through that and more for millenia

[unborn sapphire]

What is the most British place in warhammer

[storm jungle]

The planet Birmingham

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Birmingham

[green loom]

My theory is that Emps himself isn't even doing anything, but 10k years of worship has spawned hundreds upon hundreds of smaller things that have mostly coalesced into one entity with a REALLY bad case of multiple personality disorder

[celest dome]

Chaos ?

[unborn sapphire]

Alright that is pretty british

[storm jungle]

Oh right them too

[pale onyx]

Yeah that’s true but he has been making sure warp travel is active which I think is automatic. But making his own daemons and miracles the such must mean even tho he is in constant pain he is able to do other stuff

[celest dome]

But still. The major natural force in 40k is entropy. Everything you do is doomed. You don't need the prophecies of the End Time. When it is clear that it will come

[crisp heath]

Necrons would eventually btfo of chaos

Just leave the necrons alone for a few millenia and they'll figure it out

[pale onyx]

Yeah but kill humans and tau etc in the process lmao

[green loom]

He doesn't direct the astronomican, he just powers it iirc

[crisp heath]

Nothing of value was lost

[storm jungle]

^

why would they care

[crisp heath]

Necrons did nothing wrong and are just killing the roaches behind the galactic fridge

[pale onyx]

Yeah but the other stuff

[pale onyx]

They don’t but the other races sure do

[shadow plover]

If everything but Necrons and Chaos gets wiped out, Chaos will wither out

[green loom]

It won't

Apparently

[plush mason]

why would they care?

[green loom]

They can just screw off to another reality or something

[pale onyx]

Cus they’ll die out if they don’t do something lol

[storm jungle]

I mean not really

the galaxy is a big place

[plush mason]

true that

[celest dome]

From old lore Chaos would just get disinterested by the reality and take interest into another reality to start a new Great Game

[pale onyx]

If the neurons succeed any race that is somewhat connected to the warp will die out. So not only will necrons have to fight those races since they don’t wanna die out they would also have to fight chaos since humans are there favorite play thing

Necrons*

[plush mason]

tbf the Necrons are like one of the few races with still functioning brains so the typo still fits kek

[celest dome]

For maybe what, 5% of them. The rest are pretty mindless to be fair

[arctic talon]

They still have “minds” they’re just locked away

According to twice dead king

[urban spire]

you really gonna call on sigmar when the actual god of hope is right there in the warp waiting for you

[storm jungle]

Yes because Sigmar is more based

[green loom]

And Tzeentch is no god of hope

[urban spire]

sigmar's only got two eyes

that's lame as hell

[urban spire]

he literally is

[pale onyx]

Since negative emotions are way more rampant in the warp tzeetch is like 99% Scheeming and 1% hope