40k-lore-chat

[fallen marsh]

Original films were trying to hide it at least.

[celest dome]

Are Phillips head screw even used by most military?
Instead of specialised stuff

[unique berry]

cheeseburger

[crimson kayak]

The white stripe on a guardsman shoulder pad signifies that it's pdf right?

[celest dome]

White stripes on the helmets mean White shields

Pdf don't have an unified look

It depend on the local planet

[raven prawn]

Same with the halo show

Goes to show how effective the ak platform is

People using it for literal thousands of years and it still works

[fallen marsh]

Its also close to battle shouts of Blood Angels and their succesors.

[storm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/i-had-no-idea-saagar-shaikh-aamir-khan-ms-marvel-marvel-gif-26434781

[subtle ledge]

What are your guys favourite space marine chapters and why?

[dusk patrol]

I like Iron Hands cause I’m a hipster and also they are really fucking cool looking

[mystic geyser]

Pre heresy Thousand Sons 🙂

[barren tapir]

Tome keepers probably, but i tend to dislike SM anyway

[celest dome]

Pre heresy Death Guard
Post heresy Imperial Fist

[simple sparrow]

Damn not gonna lie this is sexy

[steep orbit]

think you may mean custodian guard, ik theyre essentially praetorians by the roman standard, but praetorian guard in 40k are british themed imperial guard

[rich sail]

pre and post heresy imperial fists

fists are best

[fallen marsh]

Loyalists: Iron Hands
Traitors: Death Guard

[simple sparrow]

This might be a stupid random question cuz I'm a lore noobie but why do so many zealot outfits in Darktide have skulls hanging off them? Isn't that a Khorne thing?

[mystic geyser]

No, the imperial cult uses a lot of skulls

I mean khorne does too

[unique berry]

Im gonna go with Iron Warriors just cause they are siege specialists and I really the the esthetic and the we do this until we win mindset

[simple sparrow]

Seems kinda heretical to me

[simple sparrow]

Oh I guess that's true

[mystic geyser]

Possibly the skulls of saints

Or at least the pious

[rich sail]

couldnt win terra buddy another proof the imperial fists are superior 🙂

[mystic geyser]

@rich sail doesn't count as a loss.

[unique berry]

Iron Cage. dont need to say anything else

🫡

[simple sparrow]

I heard a theory that the zealots are subtly corrupted by khorne and I was trying to grasp at straws

[faint geyser]

[north lotus]

So a while back, we were talking about sergeant morrow was old

[mystic geyser]

Anything is possible. But nah I don't think so (khorne taint)

[north lotus]

Here’s another thing

He was at the battle against the nids at macragge

[simple sparrow]

I need this emote

[north lotus]

And Armageddon’s second war

[mystic geyser]

Yeah, that's waaay earlier. I think that's one of the ones that's made up... as is the theme with the stories about him

Armageddon checks out, he has the coat.

[unique berry]

Wasnt it said that he was lost in the warp for a while that happened alot

[rich sail]

marrow wasnt at mccrage

he was at the badab wars when the astral claws turned traitor

[simple sparrow]

Dude speaking of the warp I didn't realize it was so intense. Like the opening cutscene for this game had everyone strapping in like they were gonna all die

[unique berry]

Well

[simple sparrow]

I thought it was similar to like hyperspace like other series

Like I know it's dangerous but I thought psykers on the ship took care of everything

[unique berry]

Nah u go legit through hell

They got shields for that called Gellar Field Shields otherwise demons would attakced and kill everything on it

[north lotus]

You don’t really understand how dangerous warp travel can be until you see a man drug down a toilet

[simple sparrow]

yeah but the cutscene still shows one dude being ripped apart mentally

[simple sparrow]

Did that happen?

[north lotus]

It’s a dark humored joke that happened once in a tabletop game I was in

[simple sparrow]

Yikes

[celest dome]

drug down ?

[north lotus]

Guy almost got killed when he was on the toilet during warp travel

[unique berry]

Lol

[simple sparrow]

Is it even possible to use the toilet during warp travel

[north lotus]

He killed the daemonic presence by shooting it with a las pistol

[mystic geyser]

Lol yeah

[simple sparrow]

From what I saw it looked like everyone had to be strapped in

[mystic geyser]

Nah that's only because they were going straight into a combat drop

[simple sparrow]

Ohhhh

[north lotus]

And this guy was basically taking a poop before liftoff

[mystic geyser]

Warp journies can be quite long, like a sea voyage

[simple sparrow]

The idea of taking a crap while flying through hell is kinda funny ngl

[simple sparrow]

Sounds like a euphemism for dealing with the aftermath of ingesting expired corpse starch...

[north lotus]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/858965943006265355/1056597687836872745/Wrylackingmushykouprey_ca573f_7392844.jpg

[simple sparrow]

OH GOD

What a terrible day to have eyes

[north lotus]

This is what I meant

Granted this scenario was in a less than optimal ship

[mystic geyser]

Freaky ass daemons hitching a ride and messing with people is far from unknown

[simple sparrow]

I would rather just not go anywhere and stay on one planet

I would be shitting bricks the whole time

[north lotus]

As a agent of the inquisition that’s not a option

[simple sparrow]

What if I simply told the inquisiton "no"

😌

[unique berry]

Dead

[simple sparrow]

[unique berry]

U cannot denie the Inquisition as normal human without death

[mystic geyser]

Volunteered for the even more suicidal than normal missions

[simple sparrow]

And what do we get in return for helping the inquisition? Nothing.

Just people yelling at us

[unique berry]

Welcome to the Inquisition son may you die standing

[signal bramble]

You get the privilege of helping His Most Holy Inquisition.

[simple sparrow]

We do all the dirty work while the inquisitor sits on their ass

[unique berry]

Eh

There are Inquisitors that lead from the front but it depense on the mission and situation

If an Inquisitor is called for an investigation they send out agents to infiltrate various groups and organisations on the planet to gather informations and after a while (depens on the difficulty of the mission) could be month or just weeks etc. they brief the Inquisitor and take further action as far as I undertand

https://youtu.be/FjY5HJUEKO0

This is a pretty good video not really lore but it tells it good

[simple sparrow]

Cool ty

Someone basically said they're the secret police of the imperium iirc

[crisp heath]

That's not true, you get to serve another day :3

[simple sparrow]

How fun

[crisp heath]

Danask held a gauntleted hand to his nose as he tasted blood, and saw a drop of red on his fingertip. One of the weapons console attendants gave a scream and lurched away from his panel, his robes afire with blue flames. The man flailed madly as others tried to help him, pushing him to the floor and swatting at the flames with cloaks and gloved hands.

‘Get them off me! My face! Get them off my face!’ shrieked another serf, tearing at his eyes and cheeks with his fingers, stumbling from his stool. A subscreen flickered into life at one end of the scanning panel.

Danask knew what he would see but looked anyway. Outside the ship the stars had disappeared, replaced by a whirling vortex of impossible energies that hurt his eyes to look at, even through the digitisation of the display.```

That's what happens when your gellar fields fail

[simple sparrow]

Yikes

[crisp heath]

I think in the second Horus Heresy book the Warp also ressurrects some Death Guard, but any more detail than that would be a spoiler. It's a weird place.

[unique berry]

Nah its fun

[red sage]

I won't spoil anything, unless people want me to, except to say that loyalists from several legions, including Death Guard, survive the Heresy.

[serene mist]

Yes

The Einstein I assume, no?

[red sage]

Eisenstein sets up some stuff but that's still very early in the Heresy. :)

[serene mist]

Was it really Eisenstein?

Not just...huh

[red sage]

Yep. :)

[serene mist]

Some reason always thought...weird

[red sage]

I know, I want to say it "Einstein," too. :)

[serene mist]

Ree

[north lotus]

It’s similar to how a news organization has a bunch of agents to report on matters, but the chief doesn’t automatically appear on the ground to report, but instead takes stock of the entire situation. Besides you don’t want to be on the frontlines of these sorts of matters

The inquisitor really really doesn’t want his face on his actions.

[serene mist]

I do recall one good series that showed this, was a few short stories in Deathwatch Omnibus

[unique berry]

Oh yeah I didn't mean to write it together it ended up that way

I wanted so say that in direct actions there are Inquisitors that lead the assault with Power armor and just the armor they got the text got mixed up

[serene mist]

There are those, yes

Another one made Astartes look small with his armor

[north lotus]

A quiet know nothing face in a heretical meeting works better than a man dressed like the pope.

[serene mist]

Definitely so

But you always have the urge to kick in doors no?

[north lotus]

Granted one has significantly more drip

[serene mist]

Imperial drip

Lol

[jagged monolith]

If Inquisitors were realistic they would all treat it like desk jobs, no way are they getting their own hands dirty when they've got infinite resources at their disposal 😄

[serene mist]

Stasi mode is terrifying

...could be a good idea for a story

[unique berry]

inquisitors had Jobs or Duties before they joint the inquisiton some just love the battlefield others dont

[north lotus]

Which one of these fine fellows is a inquisitor

[serene mist]

A very mundane, painfully mundane, Inquisitor who works issues like math equations

[serene mist]

All of em

[jagged monolith]

Ordo Mathematicus

[serene mist]

Kek

[north lotus]

No, they are the retinue, the guy taking the photo is the inquisitor.

[serene mist]

Ah

Fair

[north lotus]

See what I mean

[serene mist]

Yes

[north lotus]

You don’t want to look like a fed in a black panther meeting.

Despite like 60% of them being feds

[unique berry]

Adeptus Arbites 👀

[jagged monolith]

Who aren't exactly known for their subtlety

https://tenor.com/view/law-police-judge-cop-dredd-gif-8606130

[north lotus]

That’s a real percentage. Back in the 60’s 60% of the panthers were undercover agents

[unique berry]

Thats why we love em

Thats enough undercover

[signal bramble]

The new Arks of Omen rules specifically mentions an Arbites force. Which means they’re getting a kill team.

[unique berry]

👀

[unique berry]

Lets gooo

[signal bramble]

There’s another section in the rules that mentions an “exaction force” which is probably what the arbites will be called.

[celest dome]

We already have a Necromunda team for the Enforcer

I hope they can benefit from each others.

Like the Palanite Enforcer being able to get an Arbites as a Dramatis Personae

[stone basin]

Is there somewhere I can start reading books/the universe lore? I think its all fascinating, I found Leutino09's videos

[signal bramble]

The 9th edition and 8th edition core rulebook have tons of lore.

[unique berry]

Baldemort is a legend

[stone basin]

Is 9th edition most current?

[signal bramble]

The 8th edition codexes have tons of lore also otheriwse you could do audible. Luetin usually has an audible promo on his videos so it’s a good chance to sign up if you don’t have it.

[signal bramble]

Yes.

But if you want faction specific general lore, the 8th edition codexes have a lot more.

Otherwise the Lexicanum and 40k wiki are fine if you don’t want to invest the money.

[stone basin]

Im just getting into the universe and wanna check out the table top game as well (haven't decided on an army or even where to play yet)

9th edition is what I'd need anyway to play right?

[north lotus]

And 1d4chan for a down to earth crunch and fluff perspective

[signal bramble]

Yes.

[north lotus]

As in “wtf does this mean and why should I be interested”

[signal bramble]

Though a lot of the books and rules are out of date as GW does regular balance changes via their website. If you really want to get in to the tabletop feel free to reach out to me and I can direct you on what to get and where to look.

[stone basin]

Does the corerule book change? Like should I try and get a digital copy of it rather than a physical one?

[signal bramble]

1d4chan is a wiki that plays with the memes.

[stone basin]

Will do, ill reach out shortly 🙂 I appreciate it

[north lotus]

I know, but it also explains shit in some cases better than others

[red sage]

1d4chan is an underrated lore source. The writing can be more humorous, and there are articles about meme factions (that are very well written, ngl), but the articles on actual 40k lore are accurate.

[signal bramble]

It’s still useful for general lore of the setting and the basic rules and interactions stay the same. Over time certain things have changed but it’s still useful as a general beginner’s guide.

There is an online source as well but it’s all fan maintained.

There’s an army builder app superior to the GW one and it’s free.

[north lotus]

Also it doesn’t use bullshit flowery language and says what it implies

[brittle slate]

except that its also wrong a lot of the time

more so than the lex

[north lotus]

Which as being a autistic fellow, I really like

[signal bramble]

You could skip buying the core rulebook if you just want rules but if you want the lore and some background to every faction I think it’s worth it.

[red sage]

Any wiki is only as good as the people editing it. :) I'm not saying go to 1d4chan first or as the authoritative source. ;)

[north lotus]

It’s not the worst

[honest trellis]

40k wiki= literally plagiarism (ironically making it accurate sometimes) mixed with literal fanfiction, lexicanum= third rate wiki, 1d4chan= memes with a few army builder articles

[celest dome]

Lexi has often less headcannon that the wiki
And I'd trust the Lexi more (Though I usually crossreference any info I can find)

[arctic talon]

I'll have you know those army builder articles are actually really useful lol

[honest trellis]

I didn't say they were BAD army builder articles

[arctic talon]

lol

[honest trellis]

Sure but that's like saying there's less bacteria than a sewer pipe

damning by faint praise

[arctic talon]

honestly the only 1d4chan articles I'd remotely trust for lore

are the ones with a "but actually" section

which are pretty serious

[honest trellis]

Lexi does have disinformation or inadequate articles

[arctic talon]

https://tenor.com/view/omw-to-spread-misinformation-all-over-the-internet-gif-26525511

[celest dome]

All of them have misinfo

[arctic talon]

Gona say this now

if you want good lore for free

sail the 7 seas and pirate a 40k core rulebook

after 3rd edition

[summer rover]

The Good Lore is in the 2nd edition books though

[arctic talon]

Except 2nd edition isnt canon lol

Anything pre 3e isn't canon

for all intents and purposes

[summer rover]

tau and necrons will say it's not canon because they aren't in it, but them not being in it is why it's good :3

[arctic talon]

I'm sure lemen russ being a human general is great lore

as is the command bunker

on Terra

[summer rover]

oh yes, tell us about your beloved mr, land inventer of the land raider

[arctic talon]

that was in 1e

dipshit

[summer rover]

no it wasn't

[arctic talon]

READ

It was in white dwarf

L

1990

2 years after land raiders were a mini

Sucks to suck

learn the fucking lore

and when it was introduced if you want to argue about it

[summer rover]

fake image

[arctic talon]

LOL

[summer rover]

there's not even a page number.

:3

[arctic talon]

brb

getting a copy

heres the page

its in white dwarf 129

so if you want more proof go sail the 7 seas for a copy of it

because Arkhan Land is in it

I'm done with this conversation

[signal bramble]

Well it is a land raider and they do need to raid lands.

[mystic geyser]

I love the idea of a space tank running on coal

[arctic talon]

I fucking hate the Arkhan land shit

everytime its brought up

it isn't GW retconning shit

its the original fucking lore of the Land Raider

[mystic geyser]

It's a fine joke.

[arctic talon]

its not a joke if people actually belive it

[signal bramble]

Then it’s more of a prank.

[arctic talon]

my honest reaction

wait thats the wrong gif

https://tenor.com/view/seal-silly-seal-ponsuke-seal-tongue-gif-25839635

[celest dome]

He is a human general in the sense that he is a General (Among other things) for Mankind

So he is still in the en globing of human(ish)

[arctic talon]

Lol

[barren tapir]

Arkhan land fabricator general? Damn, my boi fell the stairs in the subsequent editions uh

[earnest snow]

I wonder how much land he owned

[barren tapir]

Ok, the part about the engine and the fuel is amazing... Why GW stopped doing such things? Also, nice to see that originally it was said that yeah, there is a standard pattern, but everyone tweak it to better suit their needs

[plush mason]

calling Leman Russ a human is a bit like calling a wolf a husky

are they similar and somewhat genetically related? yeah but still clearly different and the same is true of the emperor the other primarchs and the custodies/space marines

and yes i know you where joking just wanted to point that out incase there where those in the channel that didnt know that

[celest dome]

I think it would be more fair to make the comparison with Corgis and Huskies

Like both are from the same origin, but one has be developed/bred to be something much different from the original

or a Kangal

[north lotus]

Or a Maltipoo

I’m resisting the urge to post doggy

[iron locust]

That’s what the pet tide channel is for

[north lotus]

I know.

[simple sparrow]

Omg so cute

[earnest snow]

Lemen Russ is as close to human as a gorilla is. Yet somehow he is connected to the homo sapien lineage. Honestly impressive I applaud big E for pulling it off

[surreal apex]

I thought Leman Russ was a tank

[iron locust]

It’s named after the primarch

[raven prawn]

Leman Russ is Chris Hemsworth

[crisp heath]

One time I saw Leman Russ in a bar and I went up to him and made a joke about pissing on carpets, and he got really mad and grabbed me by the shoulders and shook me down. Then he chewed up my favorite pair of shoes.

[stuck kindle]

Leman Russ stole my GF

[north lotus]

He fucking ate my pizza.

[north lotus]

I went on a trip for a hour overall for that fucking pizza

[crisp heath]

Are space marines better shots then guardsmen if they both had the same amount of training?

Like does one of their funny augments make them better at aiming?

[signal bramble]

They have a steadier hand and also their helmet targeting.

A lot of the description of space marine is them doing the one shot one kill thing through groups of enemies with one hand while a normal guardsmen is firing multiple shots to take down one thing.

[earnest snow]

Astartes are also genetically modified to just be better. Their reflexes along with their training allow them to react quicker than the normal baseline human. A guardsman can still kill an Astarte, but its not going to be easy. Let alone be better shots on average.

[sly notch]

That's a pretty gross misrepresentation. It'd be like saying a 12 y/o can kill an adult in a fist fight. Technically true but it just isn't going to happen. In every way imaginable, an Astartes out classes a standard human. Unarmed, it's no contest. It takes an augmented agent of the Assassinorum to make it even a fair fight. Armed, it's even less of a fight. A bolt shell impact anywhere on a human body is death even through flak armor. A las rifle impact to power armor varies between annoying and paint damage.

[earnest snow]

Like I said its not going to be easy :p

[sly notch]

It's barely in the realm of possible.

The reason it's okay for it to be that way in the lore is a matter of economics. You can train and equip dozens and dozens of guardsman for the same cost as a single space marine in terms of material consumption.

And a 2-3 dozen Guardsman can easily take on a single marine.

[earnest snow]

Pretty much backing up what I said. Idk what the correction is for tbh

[sly notch]

Saying a single guardsman can take on an astartes is like saying you can win the lottery. It's a silly thing to say even though it's possible.

People that're new to the lore have a hard time grasping just how extraordinary a space marine truly is physically.

[earnest snow]

Rip. Now I understand the reason. Then yeah, I did make a bad representation for new people to the lore.

[raven prawn]

Don't make me call Matt Ward

[sly notch]

How dare you invoke the name of a deamon host in this hallowed place.

[earnest snow]

Time to prepare the holy incense to ward off the Matt Ward

[sly notch]

A... Ward ward?

[brittle slate]

lol, omg, that is such a shit take. i snorted all my milk.

[brittle slate]

he's not as bad as kelly

at least ward was.. warded off

kelly remains.. eternal.. like an std

[sly notch]

Kelly didn't have a smurf picking up the edge of a Necron scout pylon and use it to shoot it's own vehicles.

One of the most egregious pieces of lore ever put to paper.

[brittle slate]

he did have a stealth suit blow up a baneblade with a hand held grenade...

he also hand waived FTL travel for an interstellar species..

[sly notch]

Beaten out only by Belesarious Cawl and the Deus Ex Machine Marines.

[dusk patrol]

He didn’t even pick it up

He just turns it, it’s still lame but it’s really not that bad compared to most things which happen in a ton of books

[brittle slate]

i raise you deus marines and raise you a farsight who meditated so hard next to lava his skin burned black before he killed an entire tyranid splinter fleet with a cold

[sly notch]

The point ultimately is that it's Necron tech. Necron tech isn't going to friendly fire. It just wouldn't.

[dusk patrol]

Why not?

Especially with how the basic security for most Necron worlds is portrayed

[sly notch]

It's by far the most advanced kit un the galaxy at current time. Whatever is controlling it isn't going to just keep shooting like a mindless drone.

[dusk patrol]

They’re fairly dumb when not led

They’re just unstoppable and have absurdly powerful tech

[sly notch]

They're a bit like the borg. They do the things they're made to do extremely well but there are gaps.

[dusk patrol]

Most of the Imperium “victories” against the Necrons are against weakened and leaderless forces

[sly notch]

As it should be. Necron tech can be absurd and they're weakened by lack of leadership and unity or visa versa.

[sly notch]

You hurt me.

Let us not forget Ward's greatest contribution. The mighty table that lets the Necrons turn off stars/planets.

[earnest snow]

Necrons scare me

[brittle slate]

they used to scare me

when two necron ships broke into sol and landed on mars?

the nightbringer in general?

[sly notch]

The void dragon.

[earnest snow]

The fact one de-atomized and re-atomized a guardsman as a joke makes me fear them

Imagine being a lolcow for a robo skeleton.

Dreadful

[sly notch]

At least they're keeping the spirit of pokemon alive.

[earnest snow]

Respect

[brittle slate]

i honestly don't understand why necrons arent just the good guys

and i guess the hilarity they bring...

yaaaaa...

[earnest snow]

Stop all the bad stuff by exterminating the galaxy ez

[sly notch]

They kinda fucked up the galaxy permanently.

Hard to bring the image back from that.

[crisp heath]

Necrons are the good guys to the necrons

[brittle slate]

that's not at all what they're doing

[crisp heath]

They woke up milenea later with a bunch of filthy flesh people running around

[brittle slate]

they're literally going soft

(lololol)

[crisp heath]

And they hate it

[brittle slate]

they want to turn back into flesh and blood

they work with space marines

[earnest snow]

^

Just stop being metal

[brittle slate]

they work with eldar, yeeeesh

ever since they were redone they're also more of a comic relief than the orks

[crisp heath]

Do they do it out of the goodness of their heart(battery?) though?

Or just for their own goals

[brittle slate]

they do it out of needing to stop the tyranids from eating everything

at this point chaos is an annoyance

i do not like newcrons

[sly notch]

The Eldar magic'd Row Boat Grill-Man back to life. I'm sure they can manage the Necrons some skin.

[brittle slate]

hopefully more comes out about them

[dusk patrol]

I mean if you read the Pariah Nexus lore they’re not working with anyone

They’re basically just exterminating a whole section for the galaxy now

[brittle slate]

if i look at a timeline... i can

aren't they also taking slaves?

[dusk patrol]

They’re taking some people mostly for Szeras

But mostly it’s just wiping planets clean

[crisp heath]

I'm not going to lie, when I saw Terminator and saw what those machines looked like underneath, my first thought was, "wow, I wish these guys had dementia"

[dusk patrol]

Considering how bad the Terminator movies have turned out since the second

[brittle slate]

the sarkoni have slave armies. szeras is dissecting people.

i forget which dynasty uses human/xenos labor to mine blackstone

all the horror and freakiness has been dialed way down imo

[dusk patrol]

There’s stuff like that too, a lot of it is unclear rn what the endgame is

[brittle slate]

i think gw in 10th should really outline everyone's endgame

it would really help the authors

[dusk patrol]

Maybe but I think it would be a mistake to lock factions into a path

It’s what killed the Ynnari

[brittle slate]

but what made 40k 40k for 20 years

[dusk patrol]

Yeah and they changed it for a reason

[brittle slate]

cadia being the first and last wall was something that influenced everything and gave everyone perspective

[dusk patrol]

The endgames don’t matter if they never happen

[brittle slate]

and then they blew it up- priceless

i just listed one.

[dusk patrol]

Yes which is when they changed that policy

[brittle slate]

which was stupid

now everything just floats

imperium nihilus is a nothing burger as of now

[dusk patrol]

I mean there’s always the same setting which existed for 20 or so years back then

They still do stories for it

[brittle slate]

because it worked

[dusk patrol]

Well clearly GW disagreed

And it’s been working out so far

[brittle slate]

about as good as star wars, sure

[dusk patrol]

Like if you want the same stagnant setting which never changes then it’s still there

[brittle slate]

everyone really loves the last jedi i hear

[brittle slate]

im not sure you engage enough in decent conversation to hypothesize what i want

you just make big statements and think we're engaging

[dusk patrol]

We weren’t in any danger of a 40k cinematic universe back when the setting was just stuck at one point

Because all you’re doing is saying the same stagnant setting which never changed for 20 years was better

[sly notch]

Modern lore sucks imo. Primaris Marines are awful in the way they're written and forced hamhandedly into the Imperial structure. There would be a Binary Succession 2.0 the second the mechanicus found out some rogue tech priest had been fucking with the literal designs of the Emperor by modifing Astartes.

[brittle slate]

did i say that?

no. i did not.

[dusk patrol]

And considering the increased success of 40k in recent years I would say that it wasn’t

[brittle slate]

eternal, i think you just get on discord to talk to yourself.

and to complain about anyone complaining about 40k*

[dusk patrol]

I keep looking around for someone who cares what you think

I just enjoy talking about 40k

[brittle slate]

aw

[brittle slate]

and to hell with anyone who wants or talks or imagines or discusses anything the contrary!

[dusk patrol]

Like idk what I’m supposed to engage with here

[brittle slate]

"Love it or leave it!"

[dusk patrol]

“New lore bad” isn’t a lot to work with

[dusk patrol]

You’re free to get butthurt that someone doesn’t agreed with your takes

[brittle slate]

and that's why you're just talking to yourself. it's almost as if someone disliking this thing you like is syphoning gas out of (what i am sure) is a very important car.

[dusk patrol]

I just enjoy calling out shittakes, it’s butter on top when the person malds so hard about it

[brittle slate]

this? is where that line of discussion could have ended.

[brittle slate]

this? is where i'm hoping that more lore comes out

[brittle slate]

this? is where you just needed to derail conversation

[dusk patrol]

And I disagree with your conclusion, which I guess makes you upset

[sly notch]

You got a good reason why what I said about the modern lore isn't correct/

[dusk patrol]

I feel it’s adequately explained with the state of the Imperium

If Cawl had done that a hundred years prior? He would have just been killed probably

Which is why he didn’t

[brittle slate]

and this is your idea of a discussion.

[dusk patrol]

Hush adults who can take disagreement are talking

Anyways

[brittle slate]

i mean, seriously, just go to any of the imperial discords you're apart of and bask in the endless discussions of how awesome things are- they have a place for you

you have an echo chamber- i promise

[sly notch]

You think the Mechanicus is going to just roll over on one of its most sacred creeds? That being that you do not fuck with the work of the Omnissiah?

[brittle slate]

for the plot? yes

as of now everyone has been politically rick rolled into working together

hence the brilliance of guilliman

[dusk patrol]

I think with the state of the Imperium and Guilliman returning as this messiah figure to so much of the Imperium, it allows for there to be a proper schism, which elements who disagreed are able to be cowed into submitting for the time being

Also Guilliman wiped out most of his major opposite with the Scourge and the events of Regent’s Shadow

[brittle slate]

10k years of culture went out the window pretty fast.

[dusk patrol]

I get why people don’t like it but the stance on it taken in recent books works for me, there’s definitely elements of the Ad Mech who are probably waiting for a moment to take down Cawl if they can

But currently he has too much support and too much backing him

[crisp heath]

Eh, I got to agree with Eternal here. They're different, but they're both "good" (they're both bad, but I like them)

[dusk patrol]

Also as we’ve seen in books like Titanicus

Ad Mech leadership can be pragmatic

In the face of things which would splinter the Imperium

As well as we see leaders like the Grand Master of Assassins who think Guilliman will just become a part of the same system eventually

All in all, some fairly good reasons for why it didn’t turn into a complete civil war yet

[brittle slate]

and then cawls copy

[dusk patrol]

Not to mention they have a lot of Forge Worlds over a barrel with needing aid due to the rift

[sly notch]

Guilliman wasn't able to cow the Ecclesiarchy. That organization is arguably weaker than the cult. Tech priests aren't exactly known for bending long held opinions. A lot of those guys have been around hundreds of years, well before G-man got up to anything. Why would they suddenly be cool with one of the only pieces of direct linkage they have to the Emperor being changed? Why is Cawl allowed to innovate so much and modify existing designs when that's literally been a cause for execution within the cult? It's nonsense.

Not to mention the ease of acceptance of the Primaris in with the "First born". A few little token spots of resistance and everyone else hops right on board the band wagon when the Primaris clearly represent an existential threat to the existence of those marines.

[dusk patrol]

A lot of those can be explained by desperation right now. The Blood Angels for example never had much of a choice

Seth doesn’t care about Primaris he cares about if they suffer the same curse

Which they do

For the Wolves it’s portrayed as something the old guard do not like but they’re also low on men and it’s a chance to make new chapters, but it’s still not something Grimnar likes, more something the younger generation does

[brittle slate]

The cart blanch license to create is extremely annoying after such a long period of killing people who changed where a lens was on a lasgun to make it work better

additionally, i think the 99% acceptance rate of primaris also is a big throw off

[sly notch]

The desperation is fabricated. It's so clearly a cash grab that the lore is being mutilated to accomplish. Want a first founding chapter to be Primaris? Wipe them out. Easy.

[brittle slate]

Seth's 180 was painful

[dusk patrol]

Also they’ve always developed new tech in the Imperium it’s just over a long period

[brittle slate]

especially after the prose written in his objection to Dante

[brittle slate]

just

[brittle slate]

yes.

[dusk patrol]

Like there’s tons of new ship designs

[brittle slate]

Over 10k years. yes.

[dusk patrol]

But I’m not really gonna convince you clearly, you’re perfectly entitled to dislike them

[brittle slate]

not literally a decade.

[crisp heath]

Cawl is also 10,000 years old, borderline unkillable, in the upper levels of the hierarchy, and entirely willing to pay lip service and at least pretend he isn't a heretic

I mean, whats someone going to do to stop him?

[brittle slate]

right. he could have almost been like a mechanicum boogeyman

[sly notch]

The Fabricator General says "That dude's a heretic". Job's done.

[brittle slate]

responsible for weird and outlandish theories and technologies that are almost forbidden

i think cawl just appearing did him a disservice

but then, i know for a fact that all the new lore was cooked up in a few months before the launch

[dusk patrol]

I mean a lot of the stuff he did was just using the Emperors blueprints. I don’t love everything with Primaris lore, I do think it could have been done better in some areas but I also don’t think it’s that bad.

[brittle slate]

so, it makes sense they're not sure where they're going (but then that's the job of BL isn't it?)

[brittle slate]

i think there is a real worry, for some reason, of the idea of an imperial civil war

[crisp heath]

Oh yeah beyond a shadow of a doubt, I do think they included some stuff that had been stewing for a while but a good chunk of The Gathering Storm was by the seat of their pants

[sly notch]

All of the concepts contained within the new lore are fine. The inventions, the Primaris. It all works aethetically and within the physical laws as defined. The problem was the lack of push back. The Imperium doesn't just change. That's literally it's biggest flaw and why it can't easily conquer the galaxy.

[brittle slate]

yes.

[sly notch]

They needed to depict far more rocky, far more raw transition to this new way of being.

[brittle slate]

the lack of pushback is insane.

[dusk patrol]

We do see push back though

[brittle slate]

no, we really don't.

something that can be concluded in a few paragraphs is not pushback

[sly notch]

Not enough, not nearly enough. Give us a Binary Succession 2.0. Let's have the Mechanicus fight it out to see who agrees and have Cawl's faction come out on top with him as Fabricator General. He's old enough FFS.

[dusk patrol]

Half the high lords almost took Terra, just because it got quashed doesn’t mean there’s no pushback

The point of Regent’s Shadow and the Scourge is partially to explain why Guilliman managed to start Indomitus at all

[sly notch]

With Cawl as FG, so much more of this shit makes sense.

[dusk patrol]

He just destroyed his dissent

Somehow I don’t think people would like it if Cawl was FG either

[crisp heath]

Haha a thousand high lords go splat

[dusk patrol]

It was more like five or six I think

Can’t recall exactly

Maybe four

[sly notch]

Wasn't it exactly half? I seem to remember that referenced.

[brittle slate]

ultimately it's also very little resistance.

Emperor's Spears was a perfect example of resistance working

an entire space marine chapter that said "fuck you" to guilliman

[dusk patrol]

Yeah half of the most powerful people in the Imperium almost taking the Throneworld isn’t a lot

[crisp heath]

I was referring to his "reappointment" of like half the positions. I might be wrong, but I was pretty sure that was just code for "yeah the old guy had an accident and it put these weird holes in the back of his head"

[brittle slate]

but they're still fighting the good fight

[brittle slate]

in a realm of a million worlds? why yes, yes it's not.

[dusk patrol]

Well he intentionally put on ones he knew would turn on him to bait out and give an excuse to kill all of them at once

[brittle slate]

seems convenient.

[dusk patrol]

Well it helps when you read the source material

[brittle slate]

pacificus should have broken off.

[dusk patrol]

It has basically

Whole sector is in rebellion

[brittle slate]

and yet we don't see it or the effects.

[sly notch]

The problem isn't the figures. It's the way it was done. Guilliman's rise to regent and his scourging of the high lords should have been a novel series focused on politics instead of a fraction of one book. It's a phenomenally impactful thing to minimize effectively to "And then Guilliman shooted all the people who were doing the bad to the imperium".

[dusk patrol]

And the Indomitus fleet there isn’t making any headway

[brittle slate]

there's a lot of that. and that's bad storytelling.

[dusk patrol]

We haven’t seen a lot of factions yet

It’s almost like they’re developing the story still

[brittle slate]

right

[dusk patrol]

I thought you liked stagnant settings where nothing changes for long periods of time?

[brittle slate]

like, what about their families?

did he kill their families?

[earnest snow]

Tbh those millions of worlds have their own problems to deal with considering cadia fell. Idk if they would even have the time to consider a push back against guilliman

[brittle slate]

did he kill all their servants?

some guy randomly shows up and says he's god's child and he wants to change everything after 10k years of continuity

[crisp heath]

Hell, the Ecclesiarchy had a schism when all this started happening

[dusk patrol]

I mean it’s fucked but it’s almost like they don’t wanna he next. It show people take power all the time.

[brittle slate]

and... 6 people resist him and then it's done?

[dusk patrol]

Most of them aren’t even aware of him at this point

[brittle slate]

which was repaired by guilliman bending his own knee by admitting he's jesus

[dusk patrol]

And you know, the entire IG presence on Terra and all the Navy in Orbit, plus a full chapter.

Like I said, helps if you read the book

[brittle slate]

concluded in a chapter.

[dusk patrol]

You haven’t read the book have you?

The last third or so maybe half of the book is dealing with the coup

After it’s been done

[earnest snow]

Lmao

[sly notch]

The issue fundamentally is this. If the Imperium under GMan is suddenly capable of such extraordinary change. If they can adapt to new leadership, new technology, a literal new breed of human... There's no reason this trend can't logically progress to a 30k level of cohesion and the inevitable conquest of the galaxy by humanity.

The Imperium is objectively the strongest fighting force in the galaxy if it's ever allowed to work together. This kind of cohesion eats at the implicit balance of power between the races.

[dusk patrol]

A big theme of the recent books is that it isn’t though

And Guilliman has to choose his battles and he loses and gives in most of the time

[brittle slate]

i have. it's wrapped up faster than the khorn incursion on terra. now stop being a cunt

[brittle slate]

not on the score chart.

[brittle slate]

he also is doing all of this in absentia

[earnest snow]

The Imperium isn't united at all currently. Like eternal said a whole sector is in rebellion and half the Imperium can't see the astronomicon.

[brittle slate]

like, he's wheeling and dealing all of this with basically chess pieces playing themselves

[earnest snow]

Idt a whole half of a book is wrapping it up quickly lmao

[sly notch]

My point is that by accepting Cawl and the power rangers, it's demonstrating that it can and that's dangerous for the stability of the lore.

[dusk patrol]

Tbf it’s not half but it’s like the last third

[brittle slate]

i get that he's a primarch... but he's better at handling 40k after a few months awake then he was the total of the heresy

[crisp heath]

Guilliman actually feels kind of spineless tbh, and I will say that. Other than that, the way he moves the plot forward isn't too bad.

[dusk patrol]

I’ll be honest I haven’t checked the exact pages

[brittle slate]

subdividing hairs isn't going to change the fact that guiliman solved a rebellion obscenely fast and with complete efficiency

[sly notch]

Lol

[dusk patrol]

Also the Battle for Lions Gate is a huge lengthy part of the first book so idk why you’d bring that up

[brittle slate]

there should have been a few pages about the servants, women and children being thrown out of windows

[dusk patrol]

Yeah that’s uh

Always been his thing

He’s a political animal

He loses almost all his duels or barely survives

[brittle slate]

... again, he's better at handling 40k then he was ever handling 30k

[dusk patrol]

Yeah cause the Heresy wasn’t a political squabble

[brittle slate]

ultimate mary sue.

[dusk patrol]

You know I’m beginning to think there’s just no pleasing you

It’s almost like there’s always just another reason why it’s bad

Generally I find once people have to resort to just calling characters Mary sues they’ve run out of arguments so I’ll end it there

[brittle slate]

such power you wield.

[dusk patrol]

A heavy burden it is

[sly notch]

@dusk patrol Is that Randy Savage btw?

[earnest snow]

I get that. I'm not the most up to date on post-primaris lore, so I'll admit I'm not a smort boy on it.

[dusk patrol]

It is, I actually gotta swap him off from the Christmas theme

[crisp heath]

I like Gman, even though I think there would've been cooler primarchs to bring back. Honestly, any loyalist primarch. Even Ferrus Mannus, actually maybe especially Ferrus Mannus, because fuck I'd love a chance for him to shine.

[brittle slate]

he's gotta stay dead though

his awesomeness is in his complete murder

[earnest snow]

If Ferrus could somehow get a moment to expand upon himself then I'd like him more

[sly notch]

I think Gman is objectively the best choice from a lore perspective in the current time. A logistical powerhouse is the only thing that could hold things together in the face of what the lore is throwing at the Imperium currently.

[crisp heath]

Ferrus did a lot of cool shit, he just didn't fit into the plot anywhere except dying

[brittle slate]

and i like gman in 30k. in 40k he just does no wrong

and an infinite supply of bodies is boring

[crisp heath]

I think the Lion would've been a more interesting regent, and like I said I find this version of Guilliman to be pretty spineless

[dusk patrol]

Yeah unfortunately I get why he’s written very poorly

But it still makes me sad

If I could redo one thing it would be the start of the Heresy

[sly notch]

At least he didn't say the cringest shit imaginable, before fucking off to the warp and becoming a demon.

[dusk patrol]

They covered way too much ground way too fast because it was planned to be a the book series or something

[earnest snow]

This...may not narrow it down? Maybe?

[sly notch]

Seriously. Whoever though "Nevermore" for the raven guy was a cool final word? Set them on fire.

[earnest snow]

Oh god

[dusk patrol]

It’s Corax

[brittle slate]

agreed

[dusk patrol]

But I definitely don’t agreed with that take. Although half of Corax’s issue is he has one whole book

[brittle slate]

dark angels are my favorite though, before everything was fallen

[crisp heath]

Ok so I'll only be happy if they bring back Corax if he keeps being a fucked up bird monstrosity, like more of a monster who just happens to be Imperium-aligned and showing up occassionally to solo a big guy. I think that'd be fun.

[sly notch]

You think it's reasonable for "Corvus Corax", aka, Raven Raven, to say "Nevermore" as a parting word with a completely straight face?

[brittle slate]

the politics that the lion would deal with in terms of loyalty would make for volumes of stories

[dusk patrol]

I mean it’s silly but

[brittle slate]

imagine him looking at the ecclesiarchy

there would be no bending

[dusk patrol]

Ferrus Manus, Iron Hands, Fist of Iron

The book itself was good, the line was silly but

It didn’t ruin the book for me

[earnest snow]

Its ridiculous, but the man is a Primarch. I don't think a normal human would ever say that with a straight face. The Primarchs are just weird af when you get to know em

[sly notch]

Sure. I don't have a problem with the book but that's a hell of a dark mark on the writer.

[dusk patrol]

There’s a lot of dumb stuff in books I love

Won’t deny that

[earnest snow]

Absolutely dumb

But god I love Corax

[crisp heath]

Lion El'Jonson is literally just a guy's name turned into a dick joke

[sly notch]

I love that it also implies that the work Poe somehow made it 28,000 years into the future.

[brittle slate]

i think corax has always said it

and that was before the internet made everyone know everything

i imagine back in the day the literary types thought it was brilliant

[earnest snow]

I like to think Uber Eats survived into the 30k Imperium before turning traitor and supporting Horus' Forces with food supplies

They didn't last long

[dusk patrol]

The fact that the author made Corax such a great character when before he was mostly just the emo dude

[brittle slate]

Shakespire did

[dusk patrol]

Although I should say the Black Books also did him justice

[brittle slate]

i think a lot of "our world" information and information was passed down

[sly notch]

Yea... He and Kurze had the same issue in that.

[brittle slate]

heck, the genestealer cults are planning an attack on GW HQ in nottingham

[dusk patrol]

Tbh I’m impressed by how many of the primarchs did turn out good by the end of the Heresy in terms of writing

[sly notch]

Planning to? A mature infestation would explain a lot.

[dusk patrol]

Some I’m still not happy with but it’s how it do be

[earnest snow]

Genestealers on Atoma when

[crisp heath]

I like all the primarchs as concepts. They're all fun guys.

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[dusk patrol]

The writing for some is just lacking

[sly notch]

I want Orcs on Atoma first.

But a finished game would be great.

[dusk patrol]

The Black Books I think do all the legions and primarchs justice

[crisp heath]

Actually I take it back I hate Alpharius, the rest are cool though

[sly notch]

I had a strong desire to change my nickname to Alpharius just now.

[dusk patrol]

I like the idea of Alpha Legion

[brittle slate]

that's gw hq 😛

[dusk patrol]

But they’re always just a meme in universe

[earnest snow]

I don't have too many issues with 40k lore, but thats because I've always went into knowing that GW isn't exactly a steady company. So my standard isn't really that high. I still get surprised sometimes on how good parts of the lore is. But some parts are eh. like that time five space marines got yoinky'd in Traitor General by Dan Abnett and idk how to feel about that part of the novel to this very minute

[dusk patrol]

I wish we could have seen Alpharius and Omegon double team someone too

[sly notch]

Give the guy a break. He's just playing Pokemon. Gotta' catch them all.

[brittle slate]

dan abnett's marines are very different

[crisp heath]

Before 40k, I liked Homestuck. I fully accept that my taste is trash and I'll swallow down any hot garbage you put in front of me if I just think the idea is cool.

[brittle slate]

they're more like rt marines

way less op

[sly notch]

Mh. We're going to have to ask you to step out, for our safety.

[crisp heath]

Abnett's everything is very different

[earnest snow]

I enjoy Abnett's works still. I'm just trying to come to a middle ground on what I think a Space Marine is in general.

[brittle slate]

there really isn't one

every author has a different take

like george mann's marines are bulldozers

[dusk patrol]

Yeah that part wasn’t great

Love the book

But that part was bad

[brittle slate]

while Zou's are basically the hulk

[dusk patrol]

Well, the few he got to do

[crisp heath]

I mean my first 40k novel was First and Only, so the first space marine I ever read about got his skull blown open by a random guardsman lmao

[earnest snow]

The book is great. I enjoy the Armour of Contempt concept being put into play for the 12 Guardsmen, and them reflecting on Chaos. Alongside just seeing Chaos from the inside instead of constant shouting and reeing

[dusk patrol]

Before he plagiarized a whole Iraq war memorial

[earnest snow]

Isn't the long las particularly powerful? It makes sense right?...Right?

[sly notch]

Dan Abbot, Guy Haley, Graham McNeill, Sandy Mitchell, Gav Thorpe.

The Dream Team. <3

[dusk patrol]

Wraight for me

And Nate Crowley

But I love a lot of the squad

It depends

[crisp heath]

iirc it was just a normal lasgun with the shot fully charged

[dusk patrol]

Even Swallow sometimes writes good books accidentally

[brittle slate]

Wraights the best of the lot imo

[earnest snow]

Make Gav push the Ynnari plot line and I'll start supporting him D:<

[brittle slate]

they pulled the plug on him... 😦

[earnest snow]

oof

[sly notch]

:(

[brittle slate]

and now eldar have less than votann

[earnest snow]

I'm gonna cry in a corner. Eldar are really cool bruh

[brittle slate]

they were really on the way with that path of the eldar series

probably some of the best lore for its time

and the whole Dysjunction is awesome - but it feels like it was dropped as well

except by Wraight

[earnest snow]

Must have hit something weak I'm guessing

[crisp heath]

yeah, his face lmao

CSM took a full lasbolt to the jaw

But still, didn't really impress the idea of "universally feared warrior" onto me lmao

[brittle slate]

well, not universally

i think the further you get from 30k the more everyone has kind of adapted to space marines

[sly notch]

Long las isn't so much about more power, it's about more focus. The longer barrel allows for better columniation of the beam and the extra electronics let you focus it on your target at longer range.

[crisp heath]

I guess that's kind of the go-to tactic for dealing with a Chaos Marine if you're a normie: go have the protagonist almost die swordfighting it while the supporting cast just shoots him

[earnest snow]

Space Marines are feared, though it takes a good author to make you realize how stronk one is in regards to their biology, enhancements, and what not.

[brittle slate]

like orks see them as a great time. tyranids have eaten a few and are now making their "own". eldar i think have never been afraid of space marines while custodes outright think they're broken equipment. tau aren't bothered by them at all and even sisters of battle have said multiple times how they basically do the job better

[sly notch]

I'm trying to remember... the book. A marine afflicted with life eater drags himself into a Titan that hadn't sealed itself in time, the crew dead. He rips open the reactor coolant line to cook himself in radioactive steam to kill the life eater.

That's the kind of bad ass stuff they do.

[brittle slate]

or the dark angels who sealed themselves in a vault with the life eater virus and saved an entire planet

[dusk patrol]

Sounds like it could have been a short during the Heresy?

I vaguely recall that

[sly notch]

I think so.

[dusk patrol]

Maybe on Istvaan III

[sly notch]

The Blood Games in Tales of Heresy remains one of my favorite pieces of literature in all of the canon.

A Custodian infiltrating the Imperial Palace walls by posing as an ogryn on a construction crew? So clever.

[brittle slate]

lol, how?

wearing a flesh suit?

[crisp heath]

Really sexy Ogryn

[earnest snow]

Body augmentation surgery goes a long way

...and is really expensive

[brittle slate]

i just don't know where you'd even start

[sly notch]

They're around the same size. Add onto it a baggy work uniform, a sun hat and short term, reversible body mods, he makes it work believably.

[earnest snow]

I don't think the surgeon did either tbh

[brittle slate]

cool

[earnest snow]

It somehow worked

[brittle slate]

lol

[earnest snow]

Dude better have mastered the Ogryn dialect

[sly notch]

He's a Custodian. They're some of the smartest creatures alive.

[earnest snow]

The Smartest creature tries to imitate the dumbest.

[crisp heath]

Yeah that's the issue lmao

[dusk patrol]

They used projectors to hide their size too sometimes although obviously that only works to an extent

[brittle slate]

They've been some of my favorite characters since the first heretic

[dusk patrol]

Yeah they just put on a accent and talk a little dumb

[earnest snow]

Custodes may have book smarts, but what about Ogryn Street Smarts eh?

Truly it must have been a challenge

[dusk patrol]

If they can make a whole Ogryn suit they can imitate a voice

[dusk patrol]

The real issue comes up

Is when Family comes up

[earnest snow]

God. Imagine saying the wrong family and starting a fight

rip

[sly notch]

The guy spent months planning it, watching the shifts ect. I'm sure he learned the culture of the work gang.

[dusk patrol]

No amount of book smarts can imitate Le Familia

[sly notch]

Custodians don't fuck around when it comes to the details.

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[earnest snow]

Could a custodes get to the super secret ration stash?

[sly notch]

He's trying to get to the super secret bone stash in the palace.

So too busy for rations.

[earnest snow]

Gotta rebuild emps somehow

[sly notch]

Hot take, let Big E die, kill him if you have to. He's a perpetual, it'll be fine.

[earnest snow]

Terminus decree activate :D?

[sly notch]

Well, it's nearly 3AM boys. Time for bed. Be well. @dusk patrol Pleased seeing someone around who knows the lore, even if you accept the new stuff a little too lightly.

[dusk patrol]

Likewise

[worthy tendon]

Question: which 30k (pre-heresy) primarchs are particularly good in civilian aspects?

My current attempt at an answer is "The Boy Scout, the Blacksmith, the Architect, the Scholar"

(context for the Question is me wondering which of the Primarchs would have a purpose in a galaxy united under the imperial banner - which of them would not "have to" be discarded similar to the Thunder Warriors?)

[mystic geyser]

Guilliman obviously.
Lorgar debatably.
Vulkan perhaps. Ferrus also as a craftsman
Dorn and perturabo in a sense.
Magnus in his dreams

Sanguinius and Fulgrim have thier aspirations as artists

[worthy tendon]

Hm, I forgot about Ferrus... and I don't know Peter Turbo enough.

What about Horus himself? Was he... talented in civilian aspects or was there not much beyond being "warmaster"?

[mystic geyser]

He was a good diplomat... But the real problem is he saw himself as a ruler where there was no real space for him to be one. Being a warmaster in a galaxy without war wouldn't have satisfied him.

I'm being slightly unfair to the Lion who did adopt the title of Protector in Imperium secondus... but he was so bad at it...

[barren tapir]

Guillman
Vulkan
Both dorn and Pert (Pert peculiarly was a great city builder, way better than dorn)
Corax
Khan
This is about civil rights

[worthy tendon]

What about the Scholars, Lorgar and Magnus? I'd argue that Lorgar is too fanatic/religious and Magnus too careless/ambitious... but I'd like to hear other opinions - which Primarch would serve the Research/Education sector the best?

[barren tapir]

Lorgar is the worse, indoctrinating people into religion
Magnus is a great scholar, but lost into the knowledge he get

For research Ferrus and Pert would be the best

Also vulkan

All three were know to be great inventors, although within different branches

[worthy tendon]

Hm, wasn't Lion able to "see" the warp - and therefore also a candidate for warp based research?

[barren tapir]

The most versatile primrch was stated to be Pert afaik

[barren tapir]

Such research would be banned i think, and he could feel it, not really see it... He could feel the corruption of the warp, but doesn't mean he would be great at researching it

Also, how could he not feel the chaos corruption getting hold on other legions if he was that capable i wonder

[worthy tendon]

So to turn this question around: which of the Primarchs would absolutely get discarded (similar to the Thunder Warriors)? Angron absolutely... Lorgar maybe... Horus probably

[arctic talon]

If the heresy didn’t occur

Angron, curze

Potentially Mortarion

[barren tapir]

Lorgar for sure

Angron and curze could be both probably kept to act as boogeyman, angron also could be used as WMD against xenos

[raven prawn]

Jaghatai also

[north lotus]

Vulkan is a great metallurgist

Rogal dorn pulled a homeworld when he introduced himself to the emperor

[barren tapir]

Inwit had a small empire under it too

[earnest snow]

I remember when mortarion was revealed to he Morty from Rick and morty. I can see why he turned traitor

[north lotus]

I’m more so referring to bringing a hive world sized ship to his father

[barren tapir]

Ah, the phalanx

[north lotus]

Related: his likely favorite song during that trip https://youtu.be/jpLm4Nh7jNM

[raven prawn]

https://youtu.be/w4dHZDdHgME

[simple sparrow]

I bet Slaanesh would be fun to chill with

[red sage]

That'd be a bad bet, friend.

Ever see Hellraiser? That's a tame version of a good time for Slaanesh.

[brittle slate]

The jury's still out that Guilliman instituted slavery, right?

[north lotus]

This requires context I do not have

[mystic geyser]

@brittle slate uuh

I mean I don't recall him having particularly slavish tendencies. I mean all marines and marine serfs are technically slaves but

[brittle slate]

I'm not the best at 30k lore after the first 8 books and then the siege books- but i remember there being a theory that Nuceria was part of the Realm of Ultramar (or at least influenced by it) implying Guilliman had allowed slavery to exist

which, if you combine with the calgar comics, actually makes sense since they have the upper and lower classes which look like they're slaves in everything but name

i could be wrong- but guilliman feels like he's good to the upper classes of the imperium

[brittle slate]

sounds like a young Sting

[mystic geyser]

Yeah.. so nominally Guilliman allowed the slave Lords of Nuceria to continue existing. Whether that was a deliberate action on his part or just standard imperial bureaucracy we don't really know.

But yeah slavery is not not a thing in the Imperium. Even the more enlightened 30k version.

[brittle slate]

Right- I'm saying Guilliman isn't a "primarch of the people" because of this

at least when compared to the Khan or Vulkan

[brittle slate]

I actually think Lorgar would be the Scholar

[worthy tendon]

Who is the most scholarly primarch? Lorgar, Magnus or someone else entirely?

[brittle slate]

I'd say Lorgar

Magnus is a hard one

because he's scholarly but I think he's more about accumulating knowledge to then apply to his craft

while Lorgar seems like he's "searching for truth" which feels like he would read everything humanity has ever written

[worthy tendon]

I'd say Lorgar is more about collecting the words but not so well-versed on actually understanding their meaning.

[brittle slate]

They guy did create the founding book a religion quadrillions now follow, not sure how many points that earns him

[worthy tendon]

He didn't create it, he merely wrote down what others taught him.

[brittle slate]

i don't think "merely" is a good descriptive

but those are my thoughts- i'd make Lorgar the scholar

[worthy tendon]

Lorgar merely put into words what Erebus and the likes taught him. He's more of a Scribe or a "Memorator"

[brittle slate]

he overtook his teachers before uniting his planet

he also connected with the lower classes more, similar to angron

[worthy tendon]

But his "teachings" are incompatible with "the imperial truth"

That said, Magnus was more interested in warp-based knowledge and consequentially not really interested in non-psychers. So from an equality perspective, Lorgar would be better.

[brittle slate]

they replaced the imperial truth

[brittle slate]

yeah, magnus is a hard one

i bet in his early days he was a scholar second to none but once he started going after knowledge of the warp i think he fell off in obsession

it would be like someone who is obsessed with LotR and can quote the simmarilion but has no idea who doctor seuss is

(if that tracks?)

[unique berry]

Still the Primarch convo?

[celest dome]

I mean, I don't think I'll even recognise a Dr. Seuss quote, while a LotR one, I would have much better chance

[crisp heath]

Is there anything similar to a final fantasy Dark Knight in any of the Warhammer Universes? An army/regiment who uses darkness/dark powers but to better serve the 'light' and are good

The closest thing I can think of is
-Exorcists, though they don't have their own codex/rules I don't think
-Raven Guard, but they use darkness in a literal stealth related sense, unless you count their librarians

[mystic geyser]

The Mor Deythan can use shadow magic type stuff

[celest dome]

In a way all Psyker use chaos, to use their power

[brittle slate]

it's not really like that in 40k

Magnus is as close as you get and.. yeah

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer-chaos-emperor-text-to-speach-magnus-the-red-gif-25195313

[brittle slate]

Exorcists, at least their old lore, used methods to insulate them from daemons and daemonic artifacts

but i wouldn't say that was the same thing

[celest dome]

Radical Inquisitor might fit ? They often use Chaos against Chaos

Otherwise Fantasy had an anti chaos Chaos God

[brittle slate]

i think they universally end up corrupted though

[celest dome]

In theory yes

Wait no

I think we had a case where an Inquisitor took a Daemon Weapon to kill some dude and they basically had Sister of Battle try to purge the Chaos out of him iirc

But still closest thing we might have

Other wise we don't really have any Evil turned back good

[warped sail]

Is it Heresy to suggest the Emperor is just the most powerful servitor given the setup of the throne and the functions he’s performing?

[celest dome]

Yes

Very much heresy

[worthy tendon]

Don't Necrons technically fit since they use their gods as weapons?

[warped sail]

Is it incorrect though?

[celest dome]

Somewhat

[celest dome]

Don't use any "Evil" power
They are using Pokemon tactic

[unique berry]

wouldn't that make Trazyn the Pokemon Master with his collection

[celest dome]

Nah, Trazyn is playing Digimon, he play with creatures the other Necron don't

[unique berry]

Do all Necrons dislike him or just most of them?

[brittle slate]

we do- they just normally do it just before they're yeeted out of existence

like "oh shit, yeah, wow, this got out of hand. sorry!" boom

[celest dome]

True, like that TSon dude with Rylanor

[crisp heath]

I mean Celestine was never "corrupted" in the truest sense but she was a ||daemonhost|| for about 15 minutes

Do the Legion of the Damned count? I think ruleswise they're legends now though and they probably won't be getting updates or anything

Legion of the Damned were never disloyal, just incompetent lmao

[dusk patrol]

Wait what?

When have they been incompetent?

[crisp heath]

As Fire Hawks, I don't think the Fire Hawks ever won anything without taking massive casualties

[pastel kelp]

Depends what origin story of the Legion of the Damned you prescribe to, lol

[earnest snow]

The Legion of the Danged really do be dangin' it up in the Dark Imperium

[shut thorn]

should psyker warp attacks do bonus dmg to chaos/warp enemies for lore reasons? (like daemonhost/BoN etc

was thinkin thats the whole deal with the gray knights n why they are so good at it

[dusk patrol]

They tend to be much more effective yes

[shut thorn]

#psykerbuffswhen

[north lotus]

They also tend to have the highest tier gear

[shut thorn]

oh for sure they have the high end models and best equipment, but it performs so well due to the warp power stuff

just out there banishin kids

[signal bramble]

Depends on what they’re using it on.

Some of Khorne’s daemons have special brass collars that completely negate psyker and sorcery stuff.

[shut thorn]

ah didnt know about that

good thing we are fighting nurgle stuff then ingame #buffpsyker

[north lotus]

I just like how Khorne’s whole ass vibe of “fuck magic, that’s some bullshit right there” is part of his setup

It’s a whole ass vibe I love

[shut thorn]

overall tzeentch is the strongest of the 4 right

due to just like, changing reality

[signal bramble]

They wax and wane but generally Khorne is the strongest.

[shut thorn]

i figured khorne would be physically strongest

but even in terms of overall capabilities?

[signal bramble]

They’re always shifting in the balance of power.

None ever hold supremacy for long.

[shut thorn]

ahh gotcha

[signal bramble]

If we were talking pure destructive power to just break things I’d say Khorne is the strongest but physical power isn’t everything.

[shut thorn]

i just never figured nurgle or slaanesh to have a shot at vying for a top spot

like nurgle can wipe out planets with disease sure but it seems counterable to an extent

slaanesh can entice people but seems like the weakest of the 4

thats the one the eldar made right?

[signal bramble]

The general vibe is the constant shifting of power between the four, if one gets too strong the others turn on them long enough to weaken them and then turn each other.

[shut thorn]

yeah they always screwin eachother over lol

[signal bramble]

Two might team up on one before they inevitably turn on each other.

It’s a constantly shifting balance of power and yes Slaanesh is the one they made.

[shut thorn]

is the emperor being a "chaos god" a fan theory or is it a real speculation/real thing?

i have only random bits of knowledge from black library books ive read over the years, ive never played the tabletop or done like, real research

and i know the power/lore of things varies from author to author

[signal bramble]

So there needs to be an important distinction made here. All the chaos gods are warp entities. All daemons are warp entities. But not all warp entities are daemons or chaos gods.

[shut thorn]

so itd be more safe to say hes a warp entity?

[signal bramble]

Correct.

I believe big E is going to transform in to a warp entity once his physical body dies and it gets set free.

[shut thorn]

interesting, up until now i always thought he was just a genetically supersized human

[signal bramble]

Big E appeared as different things to different people. Only the sisters of silence have seen his true form which is why they were sworn to never speak.

[shut thorn]

and the primarchs were his discount aspects of himself

i feel like i recognize the term sisters of silence, im sure ive read about them somewhere but i dont remember anything about them

[signal bramble]

Big E made them with his dna and the dna of a female perpetual named Erda.

The sisters of silence are an order of female blanks who transport the psykers to Terra.

[shut thorn]

i think it came up in one of the books i read going over the invasion of tera when RG came back/cadia was destroyed

[signal bramble]

Their vow of silence originated from them being the only ones to see his true form because whatever illusions he cast didn’t work on them.

[shut thorn]

oooo

[signal bramble]

Since they’re blanks they’re completely immune to psyker powers being used on them.

[shut thorn]

ya i remember from the Eisenhorn trilogy

read that a long time ago, the girl he loved was a blank

n started recruiting like an organization of blanks

[signal bramble]

Their mere presence also weakens psykers significantly.

But you know, big E was too powerful for them to do very much to him.

[shut thorn]

they mess up tyranids too right since it interferes with their communication stuff?

[signal bramble]

Correct.

That also includes the genestealer brood mind.

[shut thorn]

oh and ciaphas cain, his loyal aide homie was a blank i think it turned out

[signal bramble]

Yep. Jurgen.

[shut thorn]

i havent read all his books

only done the first like 3 so far

[signal bramble]

I’ve listened to all the ones on audible.

[shut thorn]

his books are funny

things just somehow keep working out n making him look good

[signal bramble]

Yep. They’re a bit formulaic but enjoyable to add some levity to the more serious books.

[shut thorn]

i was working on the horus heresy series n those were really dark

got pretty far but holy crap theres so many

[signal bramble]

Yup.

[shut thorn]

ive got like 6 or 7 in my closet i havent started yet n i got those years ago, cant imagine how many more have come out since then

[signal bramble]

I’ve listened to quite a few 40k audiobooks.

As you can see. XD

[shut thorn]

only one i recognize is for the emperor

[signal bramble]

The greater good was the last Cain book to come out on audible . Not sure if they’re in order but the guy who does his voice is amazing.

[storm jungle]

I see that audiobook at the top row

https://tenor.com/view/mgr-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-am-i-finally-getting-through-gif-24539775

[shut thorn]

ive never done an audio book before

[signal bramble]

It’s been on my to dos for a while.

[shut thorn]

is it someone just reading the book, or is it supposed to be like first person with different voices?

[storm jungle]

Audiobooks are basically a person or people reading it aloud

Audio Dramas are literally movies but no visuals

[shut thorn]

oh it can be multiple people?

[storm jungle]

Yeee

[shut thorn]

ohhhh

[storm jungle]

but its MOSTLY always one dude

theres exceptions but single voice-actors is the usual case

[shut thorn]

do they come with a script you can read along with if you want?

[signal bramble]

The guy who does Cain is amazing btw.

Nah.

[storm jungle]

Yeah nah

you can only do that if you got both the audiobook and the actual book

which is uh yeah

[shut thorn]

cause i also noticed the price of books has gone way up

[storm jungle]

And yeaaah

its not great

[shut thorn]

are audios way cheaper/

i remember it used to be like 6-7 for a book, now they are like 15+

[signal bramble]

Hang on.

[shut thorn]

i do love having the physical book though

that newbook smell mmmff

[signal bramble]

If you sub to audible and get a free credit per month it’s only about $15 per book.

[shut thorn]

dang, at that point i feel like id prob just rather have the book

[storm jungle]

Yeah thats a mood

[shut thorn]

make a pretty lookin library

[storm jungle]

audible is a good deal if you are really into audio-stuff

if not yeah

[signal bramble]

I listen to the books on my commute and while doing busy work at the office.

[shut thorn]

yeah that aspect sounds super convenient

[earnest snow]

I have audible in my head when I read muh books

[shut thorn]

since reading is a dedicated sit down focus on that one thing

[signal bramble]

My commute is around 40-50 minutes a day Mon-Fri. So rather than listen to the radio I listen to whatever book I’ve got.

(Both ways)

[shut thorn]

that sounds pretty awesome

[signal bramble]

Though there are times when I’ll listen to it even at home like if I’m really in to it and want to see what happens next.

[shut thorn]

i used to have a long commute like that and i never realized how much the radio plays the same things that have been played for the last like 10 years

[signal bramble]

Yeah. Audio books are perfect for the commute. Audible also has other things like lore pod casts and other 40k content.

I don’t like podcasts but it’s an option.

I also have the audible premium so I’ve got a collection of free books to listen to between my free credit for 40k stuff.

[shut thorn]

podcasts are kinda like talk radio right? where its people or a single person talking about a topic(s)?

[signal bramble]

It’s usually unscripted discussions about random topics.

I don’t really like unscripted off the cuff content. I prefer my stuff a bit more structured and focused.

I know a few YouTubers who are hilarious when they’re scripted. Their comedic timing and delivery is great. But when they’re just talking about stuff I get bored and zone out.

[plush mason]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxe1wUw0mDI

[eager agate]

If the emperor woke up and was conscious, would he purge the imperium for what they did to his name?

[signal bramble]

Hard to say what he would do.

Cawl’s special AI has said “what went in may not be the same as what came out.”

Original big E? Yes. Whatever he is now. I got no clue.

[vocal drum]

WTF?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hhP1G6JtDjo

I was lied too?

I thought space marines are like spartans in halo where they die for humans

um what < !?

WTF??

trampled 1000's!?

[plush mason]

yeah no. most of them are little more than living weapons and have 0 regard for normal humans

tho they are not wrong to see themselves as more important than normal humans

there is like a million or so SMs in the imperium and some odd quintillion normal humans

[vocal drum]

wow..

[arctic talon]

No humans are the most common resource

Humans are near worthless and endless

The cheapest resource the imperium has

[plush mason]

^

40k humans are like skaven honestly

[shut thorn]

yeah humans are just not really worth anything when compared to the risk of losing a single space marine

[plush mason]

hell the imperial guard alone has some 30 trillion standing troops at least

likely even more

[vocal drum]

how the hell do humans have this much numbers

can u imagine before the dark ages

with better tech and life

we must of had way more

[shut thorn]

theyve populated across the universe

[vocal drum]

ah

[plush mason]

yeah like the skaven in fantasy the humans of 40k infest the galaxy from end to end

[shut thorn]

cant hive cities on planets have like trillions of people alone?

in a single hive

or is it just millions or billions

you can see em reaching up into the atmosphere from space and they go below sea level so they are so massive

[plush mason]

billions in a single hive but easily a trillion or more across the whole planet afaik

[shut thorn]

yeah, and there are so many planets populated by humans, they cant even keep track of them anymore

[plush mason]

yup

[shut thorn]

most are just designated with numbers and forgotten about

[plush mason]

yup

at least till the tithes stop flowing in

[earnest snow]

There are a few rare exceptions. Salamanders are known for caring for the average human, though this puts them in dangers that many other Astarte Chapters believe are needless. I think a few Crimson Fists have given enough care to at least give the average human a chance to survive even if its a small one.

[shut thorn]

yeah salamanders are super caring

i think the spacewolves really care about their tribes on fenris too right? beyond the fact that its where they recruit from

atleast the spacewolves series with ragnar gave that impression

[plush mason]

unless they see a human be remotely tolerant to any xeno anywhere

[shut thorn]

that part i didnt know

[raven prawn]

Are the ravenguard nice to people?

[plush mason]

then its time for a habblock BBQ

[shut thorn]

ive only read like a couple books involving salamanders and i remmeber them talking about protecting humans

how they are whats important in the imperium

[plush mason]

yeah they do make a point of that. but they are also INSANELY racists towards xenos and that hate has at time been extended to any humans that dont abjectly hate the xenos too

[shut thorn]

to be fair, the racism is warranted for the most part

not many friendly aliens out there

and some that may act friendly definitely have ulterior motives most times that are bad for the imperium

tau are probably the most likely to just be friendly

possibly the only ones