40k-lore-chat

[celest dome]

And there isn't much chance for thr Orks either

[brittle slate]

Rogue traders and inquisitors joining tau is an existential threat to the imperial way of life in a way that is worse than chaos

Chaos turns you into a madman eventually

[dusk patrol]

Inquisitors have joined chaos since forever

And gone native with Xenos

[barren tapir]

Like, if the imperium had knew that the tau had a stable wormhole and had to find a way to reach nihilus they would have erased the tau since they had a strategic tool of utmost importance, but since the imperium found the nachmund gauntlet it simply focused on it

[brittle slate]

Yes- but they end up insane

[dusk patrol]

Some do

Some almost fucking end whole sectors

[vital kernel]

Kroot would fit the Darktide formular exceptionally well. Maybe other Tau auxilias too in the mix, with a battlesuit as monstrosities and gunners/snipers for Tau

[brittle slate]

This is a meme.

[sinful crater]

they hint about it in the last set of ogryn cosmetic, that the fringe war involve ork then all is possible, but not soon, more very later and more chance in an expansion

[dusk patrol]

Chaos will always be a worse threat

[barren tapir]

Even before there was a planet that was hinted to have fallen into GSC corruption

[brittle slate]

No doubt

Chaos vs imperium is always going to be the big fight.

Tyranids are always going to be the “final” fight.

[celest dome]

Didn't we have cosmetic in Vt2 that mentioned Lizardmen and stuff ?

[barren tapir]

It isn't, it is just how the priority of the imperium would have switched to face the tau to get that tool

[brittle slate]

Except they figured out how to cure the genestealers kiss

[sinful crater]

since the VT was in the End of time period, high chance lizardman was already done for by the skaven at this time

[brittle slate]

Like I said, Damocles 2 was the imperium throwing everything they could at the tau

And it ended with a big L

[celest dome]

Still the fact that cosmetic mention stuff doesnt tease toward said content

[vital kernel]

Different situation.
The Game is called Darktide, the nominal Darktide threatening Moebian Domain is mentioned to feature Xenos multiple times in promo material and cosmetics.

Lizardmen were distinctly not part of Vermintide in any capacity.

[sinful crater]

fair point, just saying that if we see another race (xenos) ork are the most likely

[brittle slate]

Genestealers are totally next

[sinful crater]

since ork vs guard is a thing for age

[brittle slate]

But also a thing in space marine

[dusk patrol]

I think more likely we’ll see other gods cults first

[barren tapir]

You mean when angrellan got exterminated?

[dusk patrol]

But a GSC expansion is most likely after that I think

[vital kernel]

Space Marine is like 10 years old

[brittle slate]

And even that failed.

[celest dome]

I'm just saying that the cosmetic mentioning Orks doesn't mean that they are more likely to appear ingame

[sinful crater]

i can see khrone being a thing

[brittle slate]

I really hope it’s Slannesh

[dusk patrol]

All three others could work tbh

[brittle slate]

Just because it’s so underrepresented

[celest dome]

I hope they do all 3

[dusk patrol]

Just depends on how much effort they put in

[brittle slate]

Imagine fighting hellraiser types

[sinful crater]

i wish for slaneesh the trouble is the censor in the some country what will limite what they can add

[celest dome]

Having a Sonic/Noise Cult for Slaanesh

[crisp heath]

Slaanesh is hard to do

[brittle slate]

You don’t need the sexual stuff with Slannesh

[barren tapir]

Agrellan got destroyed, that wasn't a fail

[vital kernel]

That on its own would be true, but with the Darktide being a combination of threats, both traitor and xeno, Orks being mentioned as a distinct factor threatening the Moebian domain is a pretty solid guess

[brittle slate]

The primary hive was protected by gravitic shields and thus the majority of the tau population on the planet with Shadowsun survived

[sinful crater]

honestly at this point we can only guess we have no real proof we grabs any straw of info and try to extrapolate what FS will do.

[crisp heath]

I mean Slaanesh always either falls on sore subjects (sex, drug use, overtly political messaging) or things that are stupid fun but probably way too busted for this "power level" (like that sonic weaponry that keeps getting brought up)

I think we're more likely to see genestealers than Slaanesh

[brittle slate]

You run into the problem of too many bad guys in the same zone

[barren tapir]

As a final spiteful act, Admiral Hawke performed Exterminatus on Agrellan once the evacuation was complete. Millions of Tau along with those humans left behind burned as a specialized Imperial Torpedo set the planet's gaseous northern hemisphere aflame.

[celest dome]

Noise weapon can be as weak or powerful as needed

[barren tapir]

As the Imperials withdrew back into the Warp, Commander Shadowsun was aboard a Tau starship recovering from her earlier wounds.

[vital kernel]

I don't see another Chaos Cult being added tbh.
It would be pretty wack if suddenly Atoma was just a chaos cult bonanza.

[brittle slate]

If they do chaos variations that’s fine. But they can really only do one xenos otherwise it starts feeling forced

[celest dome]

Would make more sense than Xenos

[crisp heath]

I wouldn't mind seeing Khorne, but I'm a slut for xenos content even though I hate GS

[dusk patrol]

Tbh you can justify either but we’ve had this conversation before

[brittle slate]

Northern hemisphere. It also is forgetting the burning of the gulf but sure.

[dusk patrol]

I think both ideas work fine

[sinful crater]

that if we stay on atoma... they can perfectly send us to other front

[vital kernel]

No, it wouldnt

[crisp heath]

Xenos are easier to pull off than another chaos cult tbh.

[barren tapir]

It is not forgetting, i just didn't copied that part

[barren tapir]

The Mechanicus' purge of the space surrounding Mu'Gulath Bay had dire strategic consequences of the Tau. Their primary route to continue the Third Sphere of Expansion was now closed, forcing them to launch a New Sphere through unconventional means.

[brittle slate]

Shadowsun has an excerpt on the planet watching the fires. It’s where her and Sternshield talk about how insane the imperium is.

[celest dome]

Most planet have multiple Chaos Cults at all time, not multiple Xenos Cults

[crisp heath]

It's a hive city. The odds are really good that there are already genestealers there even if the story doesn't focus on them. Hell, some hive cities have ork warbands hanging out in the underhive.

[brittle slate]

And then it gets blown out by the rift. I’m sorry- what are we talking about?

[celest dome]

Other Chaos Cult are easier, Xenos would just be easier to make it stand out (different models and such)

[sinful crater]

about how we are fucked up because soo much enemy are hiding in our shadows

[vital kernel]

"Oh we've been fighting Nurgle Cultists for a year now and didn't notice the massive Khorne Cult that lived in this particularily shady part of town"

[brittle slate]

It could be a new cult?

I don’t know. There isn’t much story to go on

[crisp heath]

You can kind of fix it by saying Nurgle opened a warp rift (which would honestly explain enough) and bloodletters and traitor guard are crossing in directly

[celest dome]

"Oh we've been fighting Nurgle Cultists for a year now and didn't notice the massive Genestealer Cult that lived in this particularily shady part of town"

[vital kernel]

Why would Nurgy open the door for Corn tho

[crisp heath]

Ok, but they have noticed the genestealer cult. it's already comfirmed there are xenos on Atoma, it's just a question if we'll get to fight them in an update.

[barren tapir]

About the fact that the agrellan wasn't the imperium throwing all it could at tau, and instead a not so big affair for it, and if the imperium have to focus on tau they are simply done

[crisp heath]

Like, it is very likely there is a genestealer cult here, it's just a question of whether it remains worldbuilding

[vital kernel]

Genestealers don't worship Chaos for one. Another Hive is being mentioned all the time

[sinful crater]

yeah, more khorne did see the light and have decide to join the party

[brittle slate]

Here, I’ll hop on my computer in a bit and toss some quotes your way

[barren tapir]

Ah, and how we can forget that angrellan was such a victory that the tau lost aun'va

Such a great victory indeed

[brittle slate]

You get so butt hurt about this concept.

I’ll be on in a bit

[barren tapir]

Lol, no, i'm not butthurt, but it is very funny to see you try to explain how the tau are somehow the best of best

[brittle slate]

Like, any other hypothetical and it’s “fair and balanced” but bring up tau and its curbstomp the key board.

[crisp heath]

Wait how could we be so blind. I'm looking at voicelines and some backgrounds and I think it's obvious what the next enemy type will be: Jokaero uprising

[barren tapir]

?? Now you are trying the card of me being biased? LOL

I openly say that tau are quite capable, and are not stupid, but to say they can withstand the full attention of the imperium is simply not true

[vital kernel]

some people are like "oh yeah new Darktide enemies look fire"

[sinful crater]

in the end, they will end in pasta of blood and flesh

if they are enemy of the imperium we only need to kill them with extreme prejudice

[honest trellis]

TBF Hives are...not the healthiest places

[celest dome]

Last time someone said that Darktide were explicitly mentioned it was so vague that it's not said anything about GSC

[honest trellis]

Also let's be real here

the time of "the Imperium could totally take the Tau" was centuries back

[celest dome]

New Cult would let us have Fiends of Slaanesh, Flamer of Tzeentch, Sonic Weaponry...

It's not just colour and stuff

[honest trellis]

at this point, the Imperium going all in against the Tau would basically be a fool's errand and a question of "how much damage it does"

[celest dome]

Same way for GSC it's just pink/purplish guys

Aberant are just Ogryns but with weird heads

[vital kernel]

If the Indomitus Crusade was targetted at the Tau it would have wiped them out or at least crippled their expansionist endeavours for a millenia or two.

But the Indomitus Crusade had bigger fish to fry.

[honest trellis]

If the Indomitus Crusade was targeted at the Tau, the Imperium had good odds of collapsing before it even got to the target.

[vital kernel]

Its guys with additional arms.

[celest dome]

And how would that be any different from a gameplay standpoint?

[crisp heath]

Honestly you could have a hound-type enemy that pins you and just goes straight to dealing corruption because you're getting your genes stolened

And honestly Purestrain genestealers are a lot deadlier than poxwalkers, if you designed a level around them you could easily prioritize shooters and have it make smaller hordes of stronger enemies

There's a lot of room to introduce new enemy types, especially if you focus different levels on different threats

[celest dome]

Purestrain GS wouldn't be Poxwalker like, they would be either Elite or monster I'd say

But still, not in DT

Full Chaos ahead

[crisp heath]

yeah but for gameplay reasons it's hard to think of another "common" genestealer that focuses on melee

[sinful crater]

we can say this for any xeno, but... for ork.... a horde of boys that scream waaaagh before charge us will be glorious!

[honest trellis]

Hybrids

[crisp heath]

hybrids would be shooty probably

[celest dome]

Cultist, maybe having even weaker cultist as trash mob

Just expand on current lore

[vital kernel]

as with every faction its ultimately up to Fatshark to create a different combat loop.

[crisp heath]

Honestly genestealer hybrids would be a fun enemy to fight, they could shoot and melee at the same time you'd like

[honest trellis]

TBH it'd be easy to make variations of neophyte/genestealer bits

[celest dome]

It is, and I hope they make thing that work sensibly

[crisp heath]

I think an actual hivefleet is outside the scope of this game, but it would be so much fun to have like, maybe a seasonal event where Kronos comes to take out the trash

[barren tapir]

Kronos?

Why should it arrive here

[crisp heath]

Kronos is a hivefleet designed to hunt down and destroy chaos

[barren tapir]

They deal with bigger chaos incursion

[crisp heath]

Eh, just spitballing things I'd play

[barren tapir]

I know what kronos do, that is why i think it would make no sense to have it here

No real chaos to be interesting for it

[barren tapir]

Ah...

[celest dome]

A Tyranid game would be better suited against higher quality dudes, like a SM, Sister/Saint, Primaris Psyker, Tschpriest

[vital kernel]

If we get Orks or GSC I hope we get an entirely new set of missions with them.

[barren tapir]

Skitarii!

I wanna my skitarii game

[honest trellis]

Nids are outside Inquisition's comfort zone yeah

[sinful crater]

some killa kan

[vital kernel]

not just you

[sinful crater]

...ok ok i stop with the ork

[vital kernel]

Full on Hive Fleet would be outside our Wheelhouse to deal with for sure.

I could see a single Ork Rokk crashing on Atoma being an apropriate challenge

[celest dome]

Skitarii (or close enough) could be attainable in Darktide

[sinful crater]

honestly they can do anything, we don't know what they have as limite outside no space marine.

[barren tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/the-avengers-marvel-jeremy-renner-clint-barton-hawkeye-gif-17148870

[vital kernel]

A Skitarii thrown out of the Maniple would be a Reject already

[barren tapir]

The moment anything relating to Ad. Mech. as class get datamined i might go on overdrive

[sinful crater]

ad mech rifle can be fun

[barren tapir]

I really like the idea of atoma being important for the mechanicus too that make them send some reject under hadron supervision and that is how we get Ad. Mech. archetypes and classes

It would make sense seeing the change in philosophy in the current indomitus era

[crisp heath]

We could get Skitarii as a vet subclass, or at least vet cosmetic

[sinful crater]

we can get skitarii under hadron order, we can get a small group of sister with recruit for train them and watch out the reject, we can get assassin, we can get anything and everything.... or get nothing

[celest dome]

I don't think they'd send full fledged Skitarii, but the Inquisiton picking up groups of Tech Adept/Menial (Archetype)

Who can get their hands on weapon the other wouldn't be able to reliably use who can skill up to be Skitarii like would be the best way to introduce them

[barren tapir]

Or even better, give us a fresh converted into the Ad. Mech. it would let expand on such obscure part of the lore too

[celest dome]

Wouldn't really fit with the voices lines

[sinful crater]

we can get new skitarii that will develop and train while doing mission

[vital kernel]

I hope for pure binaric voiceline option on one of the skitarii. Would be fun.

[sinful crater]

we must'nt forget this point, it's a live service game, means the reject thing is for the release, they can go away of reject as time advance and more story are added. adding new class that is far from being reject.

[barren tapir]

Yeah, like for honor did, initially was meant to be only knights, vikings and samurai, then they ended up addig an fokken medjay too

[sinful crater]

exactly

[vital kernel]

Future DLC could technically increase the Trust level, suggesting our Rejects becoming even more powerful.

[barren tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/tts-beep-mechanicus-gif-19305244

[sinful crater]

ad mech is totally possible

[celest dome]

While fully correct, to keep a common story that isn't too jarring they would be better of having a common starting point

[sinful crater]

that not how story evolve... an example is ff14, yes you have starting point for the basic class, but when they have added new job they had them own story and starting point

[celest dome]

Both can work

[sinful crater]

exactly, saying we must'nt close the door at any option

[vital kernel]

Purely hypothetical, if some future DLC introduced Admech in some capacity, it would probably also introduce a new line of enemies.
With all that effort going in I think it would be feasible that Fatshark also creates new intro cutscenes and missions for Admech featuring the new Adversary in them.

[celest dome]

But that solution sometime doesn't work 100%

[barren tapir]

It would also be funny to only have to interact with Hadron, and when you meet zola or marrow you are like, bip bop this bot don't care

[dusk patrol]

The flesh is weak

[sinful crater]

but so far i think only one new class is planned that why we have 5 operative slot...

the rest will be probably after they see how it goes

[crisp heath]

A mean at the end of the story we have so far you're officially an acolyte, and if they introduce a non-reject class they'd need to write a whole new story for them, make new cutscenes, a new prologue and tutorial. I think the "escaped criminal" element will have to be part of any new character they add for it to be feasible

[vital kernel]

That is so I can have 5 vets, silly

[crisp heath]

Same reason I'm doubtful of RaTlInG sNiPeR. You cant just slap new stats on a model that already exists, you'd have to build it from the ground up like an Ogryn.

[honest trellis]

Could just have "alternate backstory"

[sinful crater]

that the point they can develop the story as they want add new cutscene... an example, we did send a warzone report saying we are needing reinforcement to grendel... later a group of ad mech is send to assist the war effort, adding a new class... this class will be introduce as part of the new reinforcement and will have his own cutscene and progression

[honest trellis]

and just call everyone Acolyte in new content

[celest dome]

Ratling sniper work very much in the narrative, most Ratling in the Guards are convicts. But Ratling have a PoV problem with the cover system

[vital kernel]

would be fun to have a choice of Forgeworlds for the Admech char.

as homeworld

[sinful crater]

exactly, but let's be fair this sort of add, need to be done in an expansion... this is something that recquire a lot of work and need time too

[vital kernel]

But keep Branx Magna in the roster since that Planet must have a sizeable Admech presence already.

[barren tapir]

We need more Hadron, or better yet, another tech priest that is another great char too

[sinful crater]

we will probably get some archivist in front of melk

[celest dome]

You can have Tech Adept on Non Forge Worlds, they have smaller forces on most planets

[vital kernel]

We have Peddler 140/153 or what hes called

[barren tapir]

TBH, i could see my vet from pavane being converted into the Ad. Mech. by Hadron

[barren tapir]

Isn't that the servitor of the armoury?

[vital kernel]

yes

[barren tapir]

You blasphemer! You compared a tech priest to a servitor!

[sinful crater]

but soo far i want some heavy plasma and heavy flamer!

hadron please!

[vital kernel]

you sad Admech character, not Techpriest

[barren tapir]

I said more Hadron or another tech priest char, look at the message you replied to lol

[vital kernel]

my fault

[celest dome]

Are Servitor even really Admech characters ? Properties maybe

[arctic talon]

No

They’re just property lol

Or “pets”

[barren tapir]

Now come here i will make you into a servitor

[sinful crater]

they aren't very different of servoskull, no?

[arctic talon]

Cawl had a pet servitor when he was alot younger

[celest dome]

And they are as much Imperium as Admech

[vital kernel]

they are devout servants of the Omnissiah

[arctic talon]

Servoskulls usually don’t have the entire original hosts brain lobotomized

And it’s also tech heresy to do that

[sinful crater]

servitor do?

[arctic talon]

With a servoskull

Yeah

Servitors are lobotomized humans

[sinful crater]

well..

[arctic talon]

Or animals

[sinful crater]

who want to play a servitor?

[barren tapir]

First time?

[celest dome]

Not really

[crisp heath]

servoskulls are technically just a specific kind of servitor

[barren tapir]

Servoskulls are just imperial drones

[vital kernel]

servitors usually have big portions of their brains removed and replaced with vat grown pre-programmed smoothbrains

[arctic talon]

Not really

They’re just imperial drones

[celest dome]

Different thing all together

[arctic talon]

False it’s just a fucked up nornal brain

Vat grown servitors exist

But why bother with a new brain

When the host has a perfectly good one

[celest dome]

Servoskull repurpose dead people, no harm done

[vital kernel]

there are different methods

[crisp heath]

tech-thralls would be better than servitors for gameplay purposes, because tech-thralls still have personalities and can do most things a normal human can, they're just enhanced slaves

[arctic talon]

Tech thralls are just slaves yeah

[sinful crater]

a true question here, quid of a class with a pet system?

[crisp heath]

like some kind of summoner class?

[celest dome]

Tech Tralls wouldn't be able to rise and become part of the Inquisition proper

[vital kernel]

its a brave man who would want to rely on hound jank for damage

[sinful crater]

it can be a techpriest too

[arctic talon]

Just make it a tech adept

they can get fancier toys

[celest dome]

Didn't some one datamine that the Vet would have a pet class ? Or something m

Martyr did a summoner Tech Adept

[sinful crater]

honestly the data of this leak feel early test of class

[arctic talon]

And besides being turned into a tech-thrall is arguably worse then a servitor

ngl

because you're still fully aware

[crisp heath]

I could see some kind of class designed to help out on missions where you're just standing around holding a point, like a class that sets down a turret for like 5 seconds to help set up a perimeter or watch your back. That would be a good role for an admech class.

[arctic talon]

you just can't really control your own body

[vital kernel]

my dreamlist is as follows:
Techpriest, Enginseers & Secutor
Skitarii, Vanguard & Ranger

[arctic talon]

unless whoever is in charge lets you

[sinful crater]

gunluger is like the vet, the sergeant was talking of minion....i wonder how they plan to add this in the game and the zealot class was litterally op

[crisp heath]

Hell I honestly don't even think xenos are out of the question yet, considering we have a whole heretic. I do not think there will be an ork class, but maybe an eldar one. It still fits the criminal scheme, because a captured Aeldari Outsider would be a criminal just by sake of existing in an inquistor's eyes.

[celest dome]

Didn't really read it too far so I don't really remember it

[vital kernel]

like, give the Enginseer a Talent where he can skip the Splicing Minigame, and an aura where the interrogator doesn't fail, or hss 80% less chance too.
Would be an actual QoL thing

[arctic talon]

and besides there's also some servitors that require someones brain composition to be a certain way lul

I.E kataphron breachers

[celest dome]

We do not have a heretic archetype

[arctic talon]

need a person that was very very very violent

[barren tapir]

Yeah, among the ones datamined zealout was the strongest, like it already is with the current ones

[arctic talon]

to properly work

[crisp heath]

No, we just have heretic voices

[sinful crater]

the zealot had the shield of the war priest of VT and as aura he was removing corruption at .5 per second

[arctic talon]

The Loner is a "heretic"

in the sense they hate the imperial government

and a lot of the traditions surrounding it

they aren't a full blown chaos worshipper however

[celest dome]

Slightly heretic voice lines is reason to be watchful, doesn't mean they are heretics

[vital kernel]

most Psyker voices are apostates tho.

[celest dome]

Much more if they are useful

[arctic talon]

the Savant doesn't really say anything heretical

aside from we shouldn't treat people like shit

The Seer is just mildly insane and constantly talks about how the emperor is in their head

which uh

isn't that uncommon

[sinful crater]

savant (woman at least) don't say anything heretic, she feel more like a tired psyker that did try her best to fit in and was treated as shit for years

[crisp heath]

The Psykers are, overwhelmingly, correct

[arctic talon]

that applies to the male savant as well

and yeah the psykers say a lot of actual truths about the imperium

[crisp heath]

The Savant is actually extremely loyal

[celest dome]

Also how would we explain a ton of eldar convict fighting for the Inquisition

[arctic talon]

they aren't full blown heretics

[crisp heath]

but the other two? heresy.

[barren tapir]

I love the psyker female voice with french accent

[arctic talon]

The Seer is loyal

[barren tapir]

It is extremely good

[arctic talon]

but also they're weird

[sinful crater]

yeah, i was surprise how the savant was hyper loyal in his/her line

[vital kernel]

Innocence proves nothing

[arctic talon]

I mean

yeah lol

but that isn't relevant at all

in terms of what they actually say nothing indicates the Savant or Seer being blatently heretical

[crisp heath]

I think the backstory with the Savant is supposed to be that they were sanctioned and an Arbites, which isn't really what I expected from any psyker backstory

[arctic talon]

I don't think they were actually sanctioned

and also they worked with Enforcers

not the Arbites

[crisp heath]

ah

[arctic talon]

they were "sanctioned"

[sinful crater]

the savant backstory implie that he/she was betrayed by the one they was working with

[arctic talon]

prolly through some other less extreme methods

but still like

workable

sanctioning is mostly just drilling in anti possession and control

and its pretty extensive and brutal

[sinful crater]

actually, some zealot line are borderline heretical

[crisp heath]

I mean the Ecclessiarchy takes a few pages out of Khorne's book so it's not too unusual

[arctic talon]

you mean a lot lol

they say some uh

very heretical things

at times

[celest dome]

The holy book was written by a now Chaos leader

[crisp heath]

People bring up "blood for the Emperor, skulls for the golden throne" a lot but theres like 3 novels where loyal members of the ecclesiarchy say it word for word. It's supposed to remind people that the Imperium is more like Chaos than they'd like to admit.

[arctic talon]

The questioning of if abhumans possess a actual human soul

Is heresy lol

Blood for the emperor isn’t that heretical

Tbh

The imperium are a bunch of insane cultists as well

They’re just marginally better organized

[crisp heath]

I don't think so? I think people are allowed to treat abhumans as human, but it's intentionally vague. Depends on how you define "human enough".

Some people in the Imperium like abhumans and others hate them, there's no hard, official stance except they aren't xenos enough to be eradicated

[arctic talon]

No like

You aren’t supposed to question

If they have a human soul or not

The answer is yes

[sinful crater]

if they are allowed in the rank of the astra militarum it's a clear stance

[arctic talon]

They aren’t a mutant

So to question if they possess a human soul

Is the same as questioning if a marine or a custodes possess a human soul

[sinful crater]

questioning the decision of the imperium is...well

[arctic talon]

[crisp heath]

Oh. My zealot seems to think they do, I didn't realize the others didn't.

[arctic talon]

Yeah

The ones who say they don’t are

[sinful crater]

generally it will end with.... COMISSAR!

[arctic talon]

Well they would prolly get executed

For saying that

[crisp heath]

Tbf that is pretty classically zealot though. The Ecclesiarchy and also the small, underground sects can be a lot more strict than even the most puritan inquisitor

[arctic talon]

Yeah

It absolutely fits

But all the classes say some not kosher things

[sinful crater]

cadian vet like ogryn and support it generally from what i have seen

[arctic talon]

Except the ogryn

I don’t think they say anything that would be worthy of a beating or execution

[sinful crater]

some of the best ogryn voice line is when you have multiple ogryn

[arctic talon]

The Cadian veteran shit talking officers == execution

[crisp heath]

ogryn are too dumb to be disloyal

They believe whatever Big Hat Man tells them

[arctic talon]

Same with the professional

[crisp heath]

"blessed is the mind too small for doubt" and all that

[sinful crater]

i don't remember which line is, but at one point ogryn say he is strong because he is too stupid

[arctic talon]

The loose cannon talks shit about comissars which is an even worse idea lol

[arctic talon]

Emperah says ignorance is strength, I am very strong

[sinful crater]

yeah this one

[crisp heath]

I think Loose Cannon is based more off Catachan and Tanith who uh. Definitely have unusual relationships with their comissars. They're foul-mouthed, disobedient, but get away with it because they protect their own and get the job done.

The Professional is more of a straight-laced regiment

[arctic talon]

The Professional’s reply is “Yes you are big man”

[crisp heath]

Do y'all know the joke about the three comissars arguing over who has the bravest regiment?

So three Comissars, one attached to Cadians, one to Kriegers, and one to Catachan are sitting in a bar while on leave. They get into an argument about whose regiment is bravest. The Cadian Comissar says, "my men are so brave, that they can face enemy fire without being told to."

The Krieg Comissar says "my men are so brave, I often have to bribe them to stop suicidal charges."

The Catachan Comissar finishes his drink, and says, "watch this. Men! Drop and give me twenty!"

A voice on the other end of the bar screams "Go fuck yourself!"

[barren tapir]

The best part is that such behaviour isn't even an exaggeration

[brittle slate]

Alright, here I am:

Was Damocles 2 Crusade a Failure: This is taking into consideration that the initial gains of the Third Sphere have already concluded. The planets Mu'gulath Bay (Agrellan: Hive world), Vas'Talos (Prefectia: Fortress World) Ksy'myen and Fi'rios have been taken and are now phase 1 Septs. This is also after the end of the Medusa V conflict.

The Imperium has lost both a fortress planet a hive world as well as 30/33 different systems along the border between the Tau and Imperium. Rogue Traders are reported assisting the Tau while 2/3rds of systems taken are done so via diplomacy rather than force of arms.

8 Space Marine Chapters were involved in the Kauyon/3rd Sphere conflict and they take crippling casualties saying that the line was held by Imperial Knights from House Terryn. Chapter Master Severax is killed during the final battle for Aggrellan before it's renamed Mu'gulath Bay.

Most of this is described in the Dark Stars campaign and the Kauyon book as well as the white dwarves released at this time

The new crusade kicks off with this:

Upon Prefectia, the Tau Empire had proven itself a force to be reckoned with. On a strategic level, their warsmithing was impressive, and their carefully prepared traps had lent them a tactical advantage time after time. The greater battle, however, was yet to be won – not only for the worlds surrounding the Damocles Gulf, but for the Tau’s place in the galaxy.

The goal of the Damocles Crusade (this is now the 2nd one) is to destroy the Tau and, more specifically for the Crusade's leadership, kill Shadowsun.

The Crusade is divided into taskforces with Retribution aimed at Mu'gulath Bay.

There was but a single purpose behind the launching of Task Force Retribution -- cleansing Agrellan of all xenos life forms. The forces mustered were excessive in size and power for a mission to sweep clear a single world... such was the intent, for it was time for the upstart Tau to be taught a lesson.

In tandem with this strike force is a chapter strength (multiple chapters involved) salient lead by Cato Sicarius in the Zeist Sector (north of ultramar toward Tau). Sicarius is wounded by a Riptide and is replaced by Trajan, and the force eventually disbands.

(While they are successful in crippling the Tau world there- it is later realized that Shadowsun used the Zeist sector to draw Imperial forces into a quagmire and was a deception)

Inquisitor Alumin leads a Tempestus regiment against a Kroot world of Jach. They underestimate the Kroot and... I mean, yeah, they're eaten.

As to Task Force Retribution: You're looking at literally thousands of space marines, 1000 regiments of imperial guard, battleship groups and two titan legions.

and:

[arctic talon]

Catachan jungle fighters try not to kill comissars challenge(impossible)

[brittle slate]

Shadowsun was not assassinated and, if anything, the Khan ends up actually liking her... Not sure how to absorb that but there's a whole novella about it. Fire Warrior tactics are apparently analogous to the White Scar way of war.

Mu'gulath Bay does get hit with an unusual... space flamethrower? It burns the northern hemisphere but:

@barren tapir

[barren tapir]

Yes, that exactly say what i posted before

Angreallan was burned

[brittle slate]

But Tau survived.

[barren tapir]

Now, regarding shadowsun she was one of the objectives

[brittle slate]

But the idea that this event wasn't a big deal? You can see that's incorrect now

surely

[barren tapir]

And again, i never said that tau weren't capable fighter, i stated that if the imperium ever give enough attention to them they are toasted

And no, there weren't 1000 IG regiments on angrellan, nor multiple SM chapter

[brittle slate]

....

[barren tapir]

It was a big thing for tau, for he imperium not even close

[plush mason]

which is true for like half the other foes the imperium faces afaik

[dusk patrol]

Tbh for Orks it’s more the Orks can’t unify

[barren tapir]

Like, the lost of prefectia was not such a huge blow, sure, it was a fortress world but the imperium lose worlds daily

[dusk patrol]

If they could it would be a huge problem for everyone

[barren tapir]

And btw, the imperial withdrew also because they once again had other stuff to deal with

They were there to send a message, not to conquer it back

[vital kernel]

Damocles Gulf Crusade was a weekend penal expedition for the Imperium.
If they weren't busy with 1000 more important threats they would have wiped their ass with the Tau empire already.

Everyone, even the Tau agree that they exist in a niche of the Imperial Power Vacuum at the fringe

[barren tapir]

And while on the worlds the tau got way more space it was nothing for the imperium, and even without having focused much manpower they managed to stop the third sphere of expansion of tau, and tau did had their heavy losses anyway, with the difference that for the imperium it was nothing, the tau don't have the same manpower pool though

[hushed kayak]

the black templar was there weren’t they?

[barren tapir]

Even if tau managed to take 2 imp for each of them, or even more, then it still more costly for tau than the imperium

[crisp heath]

I think the thing with the T'au is that they're getting steadily more powerful, and the Imperium still doesn't want to risk dealing with them. It's a situation where at the moment, everyone knows they're vulnerable, but the longer they'll allowed to sit there the more dangerous they become

[vital kernel]

some But they are almost everywhere

[dusk patrol]

Also I don’t even think it was full chapters

[barren tapir]

The main SM force present were WS and RG

[dusk patrol]

Raven Guard maybe

[hushed kayak]

huh, didn’t expect raven guard there

[barren tapir]

Probaly six companies at max between WS and RG

[crisp heath]

The T'au and the Eldar are both allowed to exist because they aren't a threat at the moment, but the Imperium knows they could both become a threat.

[plush mason]

so the speed freaks and the sneaky bird bois

[brittle slate]

Countless regiments of Astra Militarum, orders of Adepta Sororitas, and macro-level war cohorts from the Adeptus Mechanicus were inbound, slowly but unstoppably, to the greater war zone.

757.999.M41 - War Zone Damocles
Agrellan's location as a gateway world to neighbouring systems renders this loss strategically disastrous. Segmentum Command escalate operations in War Zone Damocles, centred on Agrellan itself. Waves of reinforcements begin a desperate rearguard action to slow the Tau advance. Meanwhile, a mighty armada of Imperial warships departs for Agrellan, bearing over one thousand regiments of Cadian, Catachan, Elysian, Tallarn and Cthonol Guardsmen, several full Battle Companies of Dark Hunters and Exsanguinators Space Marines, and the Titans of Legio Absolutium. The hammer of Imperial retribution bears inexorably down upon the attacking Tau, its wielders determined to crush the upstart xenos once and for all. [Codex: Astra Militarum, 24]

303.999.M41 - The Zeist Campaign
In an effort to curb the Tau's third phase of expansion, Marneus Calgar dispatches Captain Sicarius and the Ultramarine 2nd Company to the Zeist sector. Sicarius begins by routing the Tau from the embattled forge world of Praetonis V, gaining enough momentum to drive the Tau from the sector. Then, using the same hit-and-run tactics that Commander Shadowsun employed, Sicarius saps the Tau expansion of its momentum and brings it to a halt. Nearby Space Marine chapters lend their aid to the Crusade, and eventually over thirty Chapters drive the Tau from dozens of conquered worlds. [Codex: Space Marines - 5th Edition, 40, 48; CTE6, 19, 29]

[barren tapir]

And that is at prefectia campaign

[brittle slate]

you're confusing the two.

[hushed kayak]

thousand regiments of cadian and catachan. Why the hell are they there?

[brittle slate]

You guys are... like proactively not reading.

[barren tapir]

This is about the first angrellan battle

I'm talking about the second one

[barren tapir]

Nah, it is you that are arguably not seeing the truth

[brittle slate]

It gets upgraded to War Zone Damocles AFTER Agrellan is taken.

[hushed kayak]

i get that, but knowing catachan warfare. I’m not sure what they’ll do besides ambush like rambo/arnie style

[barren tapir]

And yet the time it show is about the first battle of angrellan

[brittle slate]

The first battle of agrellan wasn't engaged with the crusade

That's the Kauyon book

how could the Kauyon book have more people present before Terra sends the crusade.

[crisp heath]

Catachans have more than just infantry. There's Catachan armor, specialists, the aesthetics of the world and it's strength lies in heavy infantry and stealth but every world produces different kinds of soldiers.

[vital kernel]

Bruh, Ultramar alone could contain the Tau if there were no other pressing matters.

[barren tapir]

The Battle of Mu'gulath Bay, known as the Battle of Agrellan to the Imperium was a major battle fought between the Imperium and Tau Empire in 757999.M41

[plush mason]

im sorry in 757999?

[brittle slate]

It's... literally... the point of the entire duology

[plush mason]

wtf kind of dating system is that?

[barren tapir]

Also read about the war zone you posted, it mention the tau attacking, so it is the first battle of agrellan

Otherwise they would be defending

[crisp heath]

I'm assuming it's supposed to be 757.999.M41

[barren tapir]

Imperial system calendar, quite a mess

[vital kernel]

1000 Regiments of Guard are like 10 Million Guardsmen at best.
That is a fraction of what was involved in the 13th Black Crusade.
The Tau faced chickenshit.

[dusk patrol]

Not even

[brittle slate]

You haven't read the books have you

[dusk patrol]

Regiments can just be like a few thousand

Or not whole regiments

[barren tapir]

What should this mean? Angrellan was attacked by tau, this doesn't change with reading a book

[dusk patrol]

It’s still a lot

[brittle slate]

So, wait, so 1000 regiments at first is preposterous and then there's an exact quote and "not a big deal"

lol

[vital kernel]

It sounds a lot, but thats like ww2 eastern Front numbers, not too impressive

[vital kernel]

Well, not my words

[dusk patrol]

I don’t think anyone said there wasn’t a lot of guardsmen

Or couldn’t have been

[brittle slate]

No, you just have no idea what you're talking about.

Agrellan fell to the Tau and then the Crusade was launched to take it back.

[brittle slate]

this.

[barren tapir]

No, what i was referring to was the second battle of agrellan, that happen after the prefectia campaign, you were referring to the first one

[crisp heath]

I will say even dating it as 757.999.M41 is weird though because that implies the war only lasted a few hours lmaoo

[brittle slate]

So, this is just a really simple case of @barren tapir dying on a hill he doesn't even know the name of.

[vital kernel]

Doesn't say 1000 regiments were actually deployed on Agrellan, but in the Damocles Warzone

or even on their way

[plush mason]

is it just me or is it always Silver and mr_greebles that get into these arguments?

[dusk patrol]

I wouldn’t say it’s just them

[brittle slate]

... Waves of reinforcements begin a desperate rearguard action to slow the Tau advance. Meanwhile, a mighty armada of Imperial warships departs for Agrellan

[vital kernel]

with the 13th launching concurrently it's pretty reasonable a lot of forces were rerouted

[plush mason]

yeah others always join in ofc/ or start them

[barren tapir]

You are so pathetic that had to resort to ad hominem attacks instead of the topic, congratulations, you shown that you aren't capable to bring victory to your POV without attacking the other person and not your idea, learn from your water caste if you can

[brittle slate]

.... lol, okay, going to take the W.

You haven't read the books.
You don't like quotes or screen grabs.
Now you're saying I'm just randomly attacking you.

[barren tapir]

Sure, take a hollow victory like the tau you like

[brittle slate]

You've outright decided lore when I've shown you direct sources.

[barren tapir]

You did and now you are denying it too

[brittle slate]

I'm not randomly attacking you silver. I'm specifically saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

[barren tapir]

You attacked me saying that it is just another hill i die on without knowing anything

[brittle slate]

And you're jumbling up your argument because you're wrong.

Yes. You are dying on a hill and you haven't even read the books

why would you pick this fight?

[barren tapir]

I haven't, you are the one that like to pick the lore that best suit your POV

[brittle slate]

I don't pick fights about the Plague Wars!

[brittle slate]

dude... it's directly from the books

[barren tapir]

I even specified that you were referring to the first one when i was referring to the second one, but guess you are deaf to reasonable stuff

[brittle slate]

You started off by thinking the Imperium wasn't defeated. That there weren't that many forces present. That there weren't multiple space marine chapters present OR the size of the imperial forces there.

Wrong on every count.

[dusk patrol]

We started off talking about Damocles for one

[brittle slate]

I'm... Silver. I pointed out that that's the second battle because that's what the entire Mont'ka book is based around. The second battle for agrellan is the large one. The first one, it's still big but nothing to snort at.

[barren tapir]

I never said the imperium weren't defeated, i admitted they retreated too

[dusk patrol]

Where both sides basically had to withdraw and there wasn’t a winner it was a mutual ceasefire

[brittle slate]

Damocles is the name of both events. we've always been talking about the second one.

[barren tapir]

Yeah, and that is wrong, since it is the first one that is the big one

The Battle of Mu'gulath Bay, known as the Battle of Agrellan to the Imperium was a major battle fought between the Imperium and Tau Empire in 757999.M41 on the world of Agrellan (soon to be renamed Mu'gulath Bay). It is the largest battle of the Tau Third Sphere of Expansion and one of the greatest Tau victories over the Imperium.

[brittle slate]

It's... not.

[dusk patrol]

I cannot find anywhere it being referred to as Damocles 2 or anything

[honest trellis]

Please tell me you at least checked the source of a wiki claim lol

[brittle slate]

This is like saying the Heresy was smaller than the Badab War

[crisp heath]

Listen, listen, we can get butthurt about Tau all day, but at least they don't get cosmically shafted like the nids

[brittle slate]

My sibling in christ, that's a wiki entry

[vital kernel]

I did some research and discovered the original topic of this discussion.
And in light of that I have to say no, the Imperium did not throw all it could at the Tau.

[dusk patrol]

Like I’m just not finding these claims being made, it’s all pointing to this Third Sphere expansion which no one seems to call Damocles 2 or the second Damocles war or anything

There’s a reason we were confused

It was really hard to pin down what the hell you were talking about

[crisp heath]

I think they threw "everything they could" in a sense, but the Imperium didn't declare total war against the Tau and most of their assets were tied up in more serious engagements, which what is always being stressed when the Damocles Gulf is brought up

[barren tapir]

Yes and?

[honest trellis]

okay so

[brittle slate]

Warzone Damocles has a crusade operating in it.

It's called the Damocles Crusade

[honest trellis]

you either quote lexicanum, a half baked wiki which gets details wrong to this day

[brittle slate]

There was a Damocles Crusade a few hundred years ago.

[honest trellis]

or warhammer 40k wiki, a wiki where the plagiarism is a feature more than a bug given the quality of the rewrites

[crisp heath]

ngl Lexicanum is still a lot better than the blue-and-black wiki

[honest trellis]

40k wikis are a bad way to get confirmation of lore

check their sources

[brittle slate]

Who knows why. But if I say 'Damocles 2' it should be fairly obvious

[vital kernel]

they threw "what was available" at the Tau. Which is a far cry from "all it could".

If anyone considered the Tau an existential threat, which noone does, the issue would be settled

[dusk patrol]

Not really since no one calls it that

[crisp heath]

I've never heard of Damocles 2

[dusk patrol]

It’s the Third Sphere expansion mostly

[hushed kayak]

the problem with lexicanum is that they don’t get updated correctly towards ongoing story.

[brittle slate]

That's the Tau side of the expansion isn't it

[dusk patrol]

Which was kinda the initial point being made

[crisp heath]

yeah I think Lexicanum tries to avoid straight plagiarism so it gets updated really slowly because contributors have to rewrite any info they have, the other wiki loves copy-paste

[vital kernel]

If you compare Damocles with the Armageddon campaign it becomes painfully obvious what scale of conflict we're talking about.

[dusk patrol]

The Imperium did throw a fairly large force at them but it wasn’t that big

And it hampered by, like we said, needing forces elsewhere

Which was the initial point

[crisp heath]

Ok, slight change of topic: are the Tau or the Aeldari the more powerful force at this point?

[dusk patrol]

If the Imperium really wanted to, they could wipe them out, but they won’t because, the obvious monetary reasons and models and shit, and because it’s too much a cost.

Aeldari

They Tau don’t beat out any faction

If you’re taking the full measure

They do punch outside their weight class though

Which is the point of them

[brittle slate]

The Aeldari aren't united so it's hard to think of them as a force.

[crisp heath]

I mean besides the Farsight thing, the Tau are a unified from, but Aeldari, Necrons, etc are all broken up

Orks too but one Ork empire is probably as strong as all the Tau

[dusk patrol]

Necrons are fairly united these days

Aeldari have never fought wars like that but it’s hard to say, they have an absurd level of firepower still though if they really wanna bring it to bear

But it’s not really how they fight wars

[honest trellis]

Lexicanum is also a trashfire that still has incorrect lore on stuff as major as the talon of horus

ironically copypaste on 40kwiki makes it potentially more useful than lexicanum

40kwiki just throws in random inaccuracies or bad rewrites

[dusk patrol]

Yeah Lexi has huge issues with management

[crisp heath]

They usually don't want to see even a rival craftworld lost, but as long as Tau aren't threatening the existence of a craftworld itself and just like, wants it to move or some other minor objective I think they could probably fight them. Just once they become a real threat other craftworlds will come to help and I don't they could handle that.

[honest trellis]

There's something very 40k about the main archives of lore being corrupted, inaccurate, or incomplete

and actively mismanaged

[plush mason]

yes

[brittle slate]

and even farsight comes in and helps every now and again

[brittle slate]

yes

[dusk patrol]

Also there’s a reason the Tau find it so easy to be unified

They’re a tiny ass empire

[plush mason]

is there a map of their empire?

[barren tapir]

Yes

[dusk patrol]

Yeah I’m on mobile rn so I can’t find one

It’s expanded a bit

[hushed kayak]

y’know when people compared the tau to the covenant, thought they’re a huge empire but nope

[dusk patrol]

But not much

[crisp heath]

I think they're big enough to be a "major faction". Compare them to the Hrud, who have less population but also a lot less unity.

[dusk patrol]

They’re not really a “major faction”

Tbh

[vital kernel]

tiny ass ramshackle "empire"

[dusk patrol]

They just get lore and have models

[hushed kayak]

lmao

[dusk patrol]

The bug dudes have larger empire

Can’t recall their name

[crisp heath]

I honestly don't know any "bugs" except nids, maybe the megarachnids but they're only in 1 book.

[dusk patrol]

I think Imotekh alone used to have a larger one

[dusk patrol]

It’s a minor race technically

They never show up

[barren tapir]

Rak gol?

[crisp heath]

Oh there's still necron dynasties with more planets than Tau iirc

[dusk patrol]

I don’t think so

[vital kernel]

The Tau are on a strategic level of importance with the Genestealer Cults and Votann.
Primarily exist to sell plastic but not to upset the lore

[dusk patrol]

Fuck I’ll look them up once I get home

[dusk patrol]

Votann are way bigger

[honest trellis]

The Votann are a shadow superpower lol

[crisp heath]

Votann have the whole galactic core don't they?

[honest trellis]

yeah that

[dusk patrol]

And other worlds besides

[barren tapir]

Votann are stated to occupy the entire galactic core, and even parts outside of it

[plush mason]

that is a perfect way to sum it up i feel

[brittle slate]

Warzone Damocles vs Warzone Armeggeddon

15k Space Marines vs 50k
"millions" of guard vs 1.5 million
6 Orders of SoB vs 2 Orders
Macro Legions of Admech vs 14 regiments of skitarii
3 Legions of Titans vs 7 Legions of Titans

Naval Assets wise there are way more fleet elements involved in the area of Warzone Damocles as a whole.

[barren tapir]

Truth be told, the tau now also have the other side of the startide nexus

[brittle slate]

There were more space marines at Armageddon for sure

[dusk patrol]

The whole deal with the DG was a weird skirmish tbh

[crisp heath]

But yeah another issue might be that it's hard to factor in "power" because 40k has enough complexity to make it hard to say "yeah my guys can 1v1 your guys". Like the nids only have 1 system that they actually try to hold, but are arguably one of the most powerful militaries in the galaxy (despite being plot armored into uselessness)

[barren tapir]

Lol, the farmer nids yeah

[brittle slate]

man. bias much?

[dusk patrol]

Oh the irony

[brittle slate]

Hey, I love my Dark Angels

[dusk patrol]

I mean we all have bias

But like

Stones in glass houses and all that

[brittle slate]

but I don't reduce anyone's love of a hobby to "you exist to buy plastic"

like what a shit take

[vital kernel]

Not me, Admech are just objectively the best.

[barren tapir]

I'm just content that i managed to pass my point to those that could read

[crisp heath]

Oh yeah I think the Tau are very important. I mean, there's only 2 "major" xenos the Imperium will be diplomatic with, and they're one of them (not counting things like Jokaero and mercenaries, actual independent xenos states)

[brittle slate]

and lose spectacularly.

[vital kernel]

true enlightenment is to realize we all only exist to buy plastic

[barren tapir]

And i think i can now go to sleep since i'm nearly 3 AM

[dusk patrol]

I mean Taus point as a faction is they aren’t that powerful but they survive despite that

[brittle slate]

ok, well i agree with that.

[dusk patrol]

Not me

[barren tapir]

Lol, sure sure, keep repeating you this

[dusk patrol]

I just buy books

You guys are the real nerds

[brittle slate]

paper is just plastic with less sprues

[dusk patrol]

It’s a lot cheaper too tbh

[vital kernel]

buys books
lmao nerd

[crisp heath]

I was about to say I don't buy plastic but I have my first comissar in the mail rip

[brittle slate]

go to sleep. try harder tomorrow.

[dusk patrol]

although I did buy the LE Echoes of Eternity

[crisp heath]

I also have a couple nids but I don't play and bought them pre-painted on Ebay

[brittle slate]

In terms of power level it's just different types of power, and I wish more 40k nerds got on board with this.

[vital kernel]

I don't buy plastic anymore, I buy liquid resin and print my own shit these days anyway

[brittle slate]

oh... can we say that here?

Because I haven't bought plastic in 4 years

[barren tapir]

No need, i already accomplished my objectives, i call this tactical superiority.... CREEEEEEDDDDD!!!!

[crisp heath]

I don't know anyone with a printer and I'm not going to use it for anything but this so imo it's not worth the investment at this time

[brittle slate]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-no-anyway-gif-18887547

[vital kernel]

I gave in and bought the audiobook.
It's good shit.

[brittle slate]

In terms of actual numerical superiority the Guard are, at least per their new codex, the largest military force in the galaxy

[crisp heath]

Maybe one day I'll join the hollowed halls of "blacklisted from GW events"

[brittle slate]

which... makes me wonder a lot about the Tyranids

maybe they don't count because they aren't a military

[vital kernel]

Coherent, but everyone and their mother knew that.

Nids and Orks are not a coherent force.

[crisp heath]

Each tyranid hive fleet might also be counted seperately since only Leviathan and Kronos cooperate

[brittle slate]

But Tyranids are by far the most 'numerical' threat to everyone else. After them it's probably Orks.

But Orks 'power' is more their randomized objectives

[crisp heath]

Yeah it's hard to imagine that nids don't have the largest number as a species, but each fleet is basically it's own "nation"

[vital kernel]

Tyranids are an organism.
Counting the individual nids is like counting every cell in every human.

[crisp heath]

Tyranid brains are weird. Most authors seem to prefer they have actual individuality, but I don't think anyone has handled how that interacts with the hivemind well yet

The Swarm Lord is definitely an individual, at least, and some lictors seem to be their own "people". Maybe rippers and gants aren't individuals but the big ones seem to be individuals.

[vital kernel]

For Tyranids the only relevant Metric is how many ships they have in their hive fleet, since that will decide how many billions of drones they can vomit on to a planets surface.

[brittle slate]

same with genestealers

they just lose it as the hive mind gets closer

[crisp heath]

yeah but genestealers also have non-nid DNA

[brittle slate]

either way- it's not that I take personal offense if someone says 'tau could be beaten at any time' I just think that's a stupid argument in light of the actual lore and most people don't even read the lore when they make that statement

[plush mason]

its a meme

[crisp heath]

I think Tau is objectively the weakest major species. However, it is unlikely they could be beaten with the resources any other group has at their disposal. That's how I look at it.

[vital kernel]

Imperiums is like: consider the following

[brittle slate]

it's just like thinking Persia could roll over the Greeks

[plush mason]

they could and did

[crisp heath]

I guess really the exodites are weaker because they usually just have one planet to their name, but exodites are such a niche faction.

[brittle slate]

And just remember- they don't operate within their borders

they have people at Nachmund

[plush mason]

only to get beat at the last minuet

[brittle slate]

without wanting to fall into another meme they're like the Soviet espionage capabilities

[brittle slate]

titans really suck against tau

you want more:

https://tenor.com/view/battle-sisters-warhhammer40k-adepta-sororitas-sisters-of-battle-flamethrower-gif-17876374

[brittle slate]

i wouldn't even call exodites a faction

[vital kernel]

Eh, Titans do fine.

[dusk patrol]

I mean that’s the point that was being made first

It’s not ever gonna be feasible and they’re not worth it

[brittle slate]

they really don't

[crisp heath]

Tau would just hit a Titan from orbit, because they're good at tactics that seem cheap within the standards 40k sets for itself

[dusk patrol]

They benefit the Imperium more than not tbh with being a buffer half the time

They’re still a threat

[brittle slate]

or just hit it with aircraft like a modern military

[dusk patrol]

But there’s infinitely more bigger fish to fry

[plush mason]

void shields bro

[brittle slate]

the larger Tau rail guns bypass voidshields.

[plush mason]

oh

[crisp heath]

I think this is the issue with Tau: they try to introduce some real-world logic into the game. Obviously, you'd be insane to go into melee if you have advanced firearms. Why would try to overpower a titan with tanks when you can bomb it from above? Why is no one gathering intel real-time? and this makes it so logic would dictate a lot of situations where Tau would win, but it makes them less cool in a lot of situations, in a world where the universe keeps saying "the cooler team wins".

[brittle slate]

ooof. I mean, agree to disagree but I think the Tau reliance on pragmatism and logic makes the Imperium so much cooler

Like, the Imperials realize that the Tau are training new operatives to work the artillery class suits, right?

[vital kernel]

The larger railguns are on platforms that themself get roughened up pretty badly by Titans.

[brittle slate]

So, they send in Tempestus scions who kill an entire generation of children

[brittle slate]

this is the one that killed the titan on Taros

[plush mason]

cool is not a word that should ever be used to describe the imperium save its looks

[vital kernel]

One of those gets killed by a Titan in the Exodite animation.

[brittle slate]

that's a manta.

[vital kernel]

I mean, once you bring airborne and voidborne units into it, things become very pointless since a single Macro Cannon in orbit will obliterate anything you put on the table

[brittle slate]

and the Eversor assassin that killed the Ethereal in the 3rd sphere has got to be one of the best combat scenes ever put in a forgeworld book

it ends with him laughing and his heart detonating a nuke

[dusk patrol]

Wasn’t it a Culexus

[brittle slate]

This two seater bomber counters Titans. You don't send titans to fight tau

[brittle slate]

that was Aun'va

[plush mason]

the only thing consistent with 40k lore is the inconsistency. at the end of the day this whole setting exists just to sell TT models so it is made to be changed as sales require and is an old hobby game so that is another reason for the inconsistency

[vital kernel]

Two seater Bombers get countered by a myriad of other things, so you don't send bombers against Imperials?

[brittle slate]

The Eversor was Aun'Vre

[vital kernel]

Like, Railguns can't shoot beyond the horizon. Missiles can.

[dusk patrol]

Well tbh I can appreciate how battles are often inconsistent in 40k although they don’t always write them well

[brittle slate]

... No. But if my mass produced bomber is killing your ancient walking church...

[vital kernel]

So do mass produced Macro Cannon shells.

[plush mason]

a lot of people seem to think 40k is a work of literature like Dune or lord of the rings. it is not. it is a fictional setting made for a hobby game

its better to think of 40k like the warcraft universe

[vital kernel]

lets not

[brittle slate]

ew.

[crisp heath]

Eh, I'm a writer so I have opinions on that. A lot of it is high-quality and there's some serious artistry hidden in some corners of 40k, but I won't deny that 40k lore is an advertisement first and art second.

[plush mason]

yes that is my point

[brittle slate]

... what unparalleled genius'fu

[brittle slate]

What do you write?

[honest trellis]

40k is trying to be a toy catalogue at the same time as a science fantasy setting at the same time as a setting with at least some internally consistent worldbuilding

not helped by how common Imperial POV/promotion is

because toys

[crisp heath]

That's a bit personal, I try to keep my professional life and my online life seperate, but I will say you haven't read anything I've written unless you're in very niche circles. Mostly fantasy and horror, and some adult topics.

[honest trellis]

Let's be real, Imperial worldbuilding is bad but Chaos is even more sparse

[plush mason]

wtf you mean trying? that is literally why it made in the first place

[honest trellis]

and xeno subfactions may as well not exist

[brittle slate]

i just meant genre wise

[honest trellis]

sure but now it's attempting three things at once

[vital kernel]

There are mass produced Baneblade variants capable of killing a Titan under the right circumstances, that doesn't make Titans any less viable.
Titans will rape 90% of Tau forces on the ground, just because the Tau have a way of countering Titans doesn't make them useless.

[plush mason]

again not now. always has been that way. from the very first white dwarf to today

[crisp heath]

Oh. Sci-fi/fantasy, some historical stuff, some nonfiction, anything that pays and I still need a dayjob because magazines and patreon don't do shit unless you have a good network.

Oh sorry ig I'm about to start ranting. I'll go smoke and be back.

[brittle slate]

Listen, I'm only drawing from lore. Titans don't do well against Tau.

[plush mason]

anyway. what are some 2 handed melee weapons the ogryn could end up getting?

[brittle slate]

fair

[plush mason]

because idk what if any 2 handed melee weapons are canonically available to imperial guard ogryn

[brittle slate]

The mechanicus changed their entire approach to war with tau because of the ease of which the tau can bring down titans.

If you want to kill Tau send special forces (deathwatch, tempestus, catachans) and "magic" users (SoB, psykers in general)

fight tau the way tau fight, don't use ww1 tactics. The "magic" users will table them and, if they're SoB, actually turn traitor forces back into loyalists

[crisp heath]

I don't think Ogryn use two handed melee. Chain and power weapons are too complicated for them. It would be cool if they just got like, a special two handed axe that evaporated anything except bosses but was super slow.

[brittle slate]

kind of a tone shift but yes

a giant shovel

[plush mason]

literally the only bit of tau lore i know is that a warpstorm is the only reason they where not wiped out by the imperium at some point in the past

[brittle slate]

or...

[brittle slate]

I don't mean to be contentious with people- but I really do think the more people read the lore around tau they'd love to kill them more, or, play with them

[brittle slate]

Seriously though, I want a giant powerfist for the ogryn

[crisp heath]

I want the opposite. I want powerfist for the other classes so they can do the ogryn uppercut lmao

[plush mason]

i mean this was when the imperium first found them. well before they started their empire

[brittle slate]

or two... TWO

[brittle slate]

no i got you- i just was responding to that piece being the only bit of lore you know. I think if you read up on them you'd really like them vs the meme-hate that's far in the majority in the 40k community

or the weird Farsight simping

[vital kernel]

I just want a powerfist for Vet

[crisp heath]

Oh, I like T'au in general. I hope I didn't give the impression I didn't. I just understand why some people don't.

[dusk patrol]

I’d take powerfist for anyone

[crisp heath]

They can be jarring compared to the rules the other factions work with, and if you got into 40k because you like another faction they might put you off as too different.

[dusk patrol]

But idk if FS is gonna do it just cause it’d be an awakened animation “holstering” it

[plush mason]

even psyker?

[dusk patrol]

Especially Psyker

Force fist would be cool

[crisp heath]

I'm not going to pretend I'm a huge T'au fan, but I see why people like them, and even I'll admit a firing squad mowing rows of imperials with sub-par or even melee weapons would be satisfying to see.

[vital kernel]

gimme

[dusk patrol]

I just like the mecha

[crisp heath]

I like other species mechs more unfortunately 😦

Give me a huge fucking cylinder with a face and a chainsaw

[dusk patrol]

I’m Bimecha

I love all mechas

[brittle slate]

Watch the language there bud

[vital kernel]

I like 1st and 2nd gen Tau mecha, but the later ones just look like giant turkeys

[brittle slate]

Except the ghostkeel.

[dusk patrol]

See I love the ones which are more mobile artillery platforms

[brittle slate]

I wish they hadn’t bought into the desire for bigger mechs. It was once a cool part of the tau that they specifically thought larger assets were dumb

[dusk patrol]

Riptide will always be the peak for me though

But like I enjoy the Stormsurge

[honest trellis]

"remember when the tau were an alliance of multiple species"

[brittle slate]

I did see one of these though and became… enthused.

[crisp heath]

I do like how the T'au are supposed to be the mecha faction and they're the only one besides nids which don't have a titan equivalent (which even in the nids case it's because "giant monster" is part of their whole theme)

[dusk patrol]

Well they do now tbh

The one bomber for example is such a ridiculous sized model

[signal bramble]

They have some Fw models for that.

[crisp heath]

I'll see all of you liking mechs and raise you kaiju

[signal bramble]

There are bio titans.

[crisp heath]

a biotitan doesn't look or act like a titan

That's a kaiju, not a mech

[dusk patrol]

pacific rim theme starts

[signal bramble]

It’s an equivalent though. It’s not a mech but it’s an extra huge monster.

[plush mason]

dont the tau also have a kaiju kinda allied race?

[brittle slate]

Ugh

Back in the day there was a serious rumor

I think from war seer

[vital kernel]

Crisis and Broadside are cool.
Anything else miss me with that.

I wish Tau just got more alien auxilia.
Maybe even have some of the bigger suits be auxilia property like Demiurg Drones

[brittle slate]

That said we’d get a box of alien bits

[vital kernel]

would give aliens a more prominent role in the Tau Empire other than foot fodder, if they actually contribute to tech and mechanisation.

Like you have Kroot Spheres and Demiurg Bastions in space as an essential part of Tau fleets

[signal bramble]

I like the coldstar myself. The red super fast suit from the farsight novels made me think of Char Aznable.

If I ever collect Tau I already decided to do a duchy of zeon paint scheme.

[brittle slate]

You mean game wise

[signal bramble]

Ze’on Sept. XD

[brittle slate]

We have over 50 alien races mentioned in lore

[crisp heath]

It would be nice if they could do a poll about minor xenos every once in a while so they'd know what sells, and then a few months later release a mini like "yeah, T'au have some of those guys"

[brittle slate]

And… 3 that have “models”

[crisp heath]

There's lots of minor xenos that never got modelled but that some people really love and it would be nice to add them to the T'au

[brittle slate]

Don’t give GW that much credit

You can basically tell what they’re going to do if you follow the right Reddit communities

Which are chockablock marine fans

[signal bramble]

They’ll make whatever minis they want! And you’ll spend your money on them and be grateful for the privilege!

[crisp heath]

Honestly there's so many marine option I have to imagine modelling anything that isn't a marine has to be more profitable at this point

[honest trellis]

What's annoying is not even Marines are safe

It's Primaris LSM or bust.

[vital kernel]

Just go through the popular youtube channels, it's 80% marine hype and 20% all the other factions.

Majority of the playerbase are marine because nothing else gets regular updates.

[brittle slate]

I think Demiurg should be able to be used by tau absolutely. Kroot are getting expanded on which is cool.

[arctic talon]

Yes

[brittle slate]

Nagi should be a relic for ethereals at least.

[arctic talon]

Good news

In arks of omen odds are you can

[brittle slate]

Gue’vesa should be a thing but I don’t know how you make them unique from regular Firewarriors.

[signal bramble]

The new comp detachment can field a Votann patrol. They might give it to Tau also? We haven’t seen all the rules yet.

[arctic talon]

Can’t use marker lights but have better melee?

[brittle slate]

We should have ogryns. Or an alien race like ogryns

[brittle slate]

That would be awesome

[arctic talon]

You can now

I’d assume you can at least

Since imperium can take a patrol detachment of votaan

As long as you take an AoO detachment

[brittle slate]

An all LoV Kroot army would be awesome too

[arctic talon]

So high chance of tau being allowed the same

[signal bramble]

We have to wait for the full arks of omen rule.

[brittle slate]

Since LoV have worked with the Kroot for thousands of years

[arctic talon]

Hell tau might even be allowed a patrol detachment of guard

[signal bramble]

Right now Votann can’t ally with anyone.

[arctic talon]

Yeah

But AoO changes that

[vital kernel]

Haven't really looked at Votann in detail yet.
Whats the scoop on them?

[arctic talon]

With specific rules

About allying

So we get the ally matrix but less terrible

[signal bramble]

They’re a highly advanced civilization that’s just starting its decline.

[vital kernel]

like former mining colonists turned dwarfs? But human in origin iirc

[arctic talon]

The great rift fucked them up pretty badly

[brittle slate]

Read demiurg lore first

[arctic talon]

Human in origin but they don’t know nearly enough about their past

[brittle slate]

They got rolled into the same faction

[vital kernel]

really?

[arctic talon]

Demiurg, The leagues of Votaan and Squats are all interconnected now

Demiurg are a specific League

And Squats are a splinter group

[brittle slate]

Dare to dream

[arctic talon]

I hope so

Tbh

[brittle slate]

Well- a specific name*

[arctic talon]

Yeah

[brittle slate]

It would make more sense if they were a league

[arctic talon]

A specific name for Kin

[brittle slate]

Yes

[signal bramble]

Their main schtick are the Votann are super advanced AI computers that create more dwarves via a much more advanced version of cloning. They contain tons of stc’s, ancient dark age tech stuff, and all sorts of crazy stuff. But their massive AI are slowly starting to slow down and their performance is degrading.

[arctic talon]

And there’s 1 league that’s

Very closely associated with the tau

[brittle slate]

Ah- ur right

[arctic talon]

I forgot their name tho

[brittle slate]

2: srry’tok and Thurm

[arctic talon]

Yeah

Those ones

[vital kernel]

Wew, I liked Demiurg Brotherhood as voidfaring xenos

oh well

[arctic talon]

They still are void faring “xenos”

The leagues of votaan are technically not abhumans

To the imperium

Squats are

But the Kin aren’t really

Since the squats don’t really associate as closely anymore

And also are okay with being called Squats

Unlike the Leagues of Votaan

Who will prolly kill you for calling them a squat

[brittle slate]

So did I

And I liked them when they were:

[arctic talon]

Honestly I’m a bit iffy on demiurg being rolled in personally

But W/E

They never really got an official depiction

Aside from their ships

[crisp heath]

Demiurge can be ababhuman

Seperated from other kin for so long they got even weirder

[arctic talon]

What in the everloving fuck

Is that a mind flayer

[crisp heath]

dude ive been drinking i literally do not know what im looking at

[brittle slate]

Yeeees. No, remember that GW just borrows everything

[arctic talon]

Lol

It looks like a knock off mindflayer

[brittle slate]

The demiurg name in Tau’sia (their language) is “Bentu’sin” if you play the game homeworld there is an alien race called the Bentusi

Octopus people who give the protagonists ion weapons

[arctic talon]

Homeworld is fun

[bleak badge]

Hey, I’m trying to get into this whole universe of lore, where should I start?

[arctic talon]

That’s a good question

If you can

[crisp heath]

the first step is to reconsider

[arctic talon]

I’d buy the 8th edition rulebook

Or well

You could sail the 7 seas

For a digital copy

But the 8th edition core rulebook for 40k is really good for introducing you into the universe

9th edition core rule book is also good

[brittle slate]

Yeah

I’d second that

[arctic talon]

The core rule books are really good for lore

And anyone who says otherwise is wrong and should feel bad

[honest trellis]

the Core rulebooks are good for a first exposure

[plush mason]

again the setting exists to sale the minis so ofc the rule books have great lore in them

[honest trellis]

but gloss over far far too much

[brittle slate]

Just don’t read any codexes in 9th

[arctic talon]

They help get you into the universe initially

[honest trellis]

Interested in any aspect in particular?

[arctic talon]

Is the most important thing imo

It gives you the general vibe

Of every faction to an extent

[honest trellis]

TBH the introduction sums it up best

[arctic talon]

Lol

Fair enough

[brittle slate]

Lol

[honest trellis]

a surprising number of "fans" seem to miss like

the literal text

[arctic talon]

But that only really summarizes the imperium

Not so much the other factions

[honest trellis]

yeah fair

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

[brittle slate]

You know. The protagonists.

[honest trellis]

Beginner friendly lore...Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, Ciaphas Cain

[brittle slate]

[plush mason]

yeah. the fans dont miss that. they just do this

https://tenor.com/view/frieza-dragon-ball-z-ill-ignore-that-ignore-meme-gif-16947665

[brittle slate]

Lol

[honest trellis]

"the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable"

[arctic talon]

Mfw someone tries to argue the imperium are the good guys

[honest trellis]

"Is this a utopia?"

[brittle slate]

Lol

[arctic talon]

No that’s being a craftworlder

Until you get invaded

[honest trellis]

Craftworlds unironically need more lore

post scarcity, assholes~

[arctic talon]

The story about eldar life on a craftworld was cool

[brittle slate]

“Not ALL the worlds in the imperium are hellholes… so a little xenophobia, genocide, slavery… is fine”

[honest trellis]

shame about ya know, the crippling soul sickness

[arctic talon]

Especially reading about how they like

Prepare for events and such

[honest trellis]

but yeah core rules are solid for lore

[arctic talon]

The fact eldar can just change hair and eye color

To match their clothes better is great imo

Who needs makeup and hair dye when psychic powers exist

[crisp heath]

tbf that's also an in-universe quote from someone who wasn't too... average

[arctic talon]

Lol

[plush mason]

it is?

[crisp heath]

It's complicated. Vulkan said at least some of it, but the first two paragraphs are based off the first page of the first ever 40k book, and it doesn't have a "source" there

[honest trellis]

it was the setting synopsis for the longest plan and honestly if anything his perspective makes it worse

this is a guy who was okay being one of the generals

and the assessment is "it's fucked"

[crisp heath]

Vulkan said the last paragraph and bits of the first 2 and its changed a lot over years

[honest trellis]

*and then it got even worse(

[bleak badge]

I wanna start from the beginning of it all, which I heard is the necrons? Pls correct me if I’m wrong

[honest trellis]

Necrons are the oldest species

but if you want to start chronologically- and I'm not sure that's the best idea

maybve the Horus Heresy series

since that's a prequel

It's very long and complicated though

[bleak badge]

And then the war with them and the old gods yeah?

[honest trellis]

Necrons fought the old ones in the War in Heaven

that's not really novel material as such but it is backstory

[bleak badge]

Ye that’s literally all I know from some of a vid I watched

[crisp heath]

If you want to start with the War in Heaven, the earliest recorded events in the Galaxy, you're better off from watching a few youtube videos. That stuff is a bit scattered.

[honest trellis]

hmmmmm

for lore videos are fun

[bleak badge]

I did hear it’s very dicey

And not really sure of a lot

[honest trellis]

but it depends on how spooky feels about novels, audio, or reading backstory

[crisp heath]

Yeah but I can't really think of a book I can point to and say "that one has the war in heaven"

[bleak badge]

I like novels

[honest trellis]

Would you say you're really interested in the idea of Necrons in particular or 40k in general?

[bleak badge]

Honestly I could read some I just needa know where to start

[honest trellis]

Personally I'd read the core rules as suggested as a good summary

Some of the most beginner friendly novels are about Imperial protagonists in 40k time period though]

[arctic talon]

If you can find a faction you like the asthetic of

[crisp heath]

My introduction was Gaunt's Ghosts and some of it is a bit confusing if you don't know anything but I could follow 90% of it

[arctic talon]

It might be easier to narrow in on stuff

[bleak badge]

Honestly I’m interested in like the times when humans had to like fight the machines they made and forced themselves into like a dark age

[honest trellis]

"Gaunt's Ghosts"= stories about Imperial guard, very well written

haha yeah that's pretty obscure

Dark Age of Technology

[arctic talon]

There’s like 0 lore on that period of time unfortunately

[bleak badge]

I vaguely heard of it

[arctic talon]

On purpose

[crisp heath]

Oh no we don't have a book about that, it was called the Cybernetic Revolt and we know about most of it through "hints"

[honest trellis]

Amusingly there is some...in a random short story about the Heresy

as part of subplots some people don't like

But yeah Spooky

[arctic talon]

Also there’s a tiny bit of it

In one of the black stone fortress books

Bcs of Ur-025

[honest trellis]

What kind of story do you want to read to get started?

[bleak badge]

Where are the games like vermintide and darktide take place in the universe? They seem a bit different than usual 40k games

What would you recommend?

[crisp heath]

If you like a certain faction, a fan of that faction can probably tell you where to get started with them

[arctic talon]

Vermintide is in warhammer fantasy

[honest trellis]

Vermintide is Fantasy, different setting

Darktide is about Inquisition

[arctic talon]

Darktide takes place in a hive

And has the inquisition

[honest trellis]

has a lot in common with Eisenhorn and other Inquisition stories

[arctic talon]

Yeah

[crisp heath]

Fantasy and 40k were the same setting at first, but they aren't anymore

[bleak badge]

What about like the battle sisters

[honest trellis]

They get quite a few stories

[bleak badge]

Heard they were cool and saw trailers with them

[honest trellis]

are they a faction you want to learn about as your 40k intro

[crisp heath]

Sisters of Battle are 40k and have a lot of good content, but for a while they were kind of gross

[arctic talon]

They got a few like Our martyred lady

Which had an inqusitor and Saint Celestine

[honest trellis]

TBH even the older stuff at least gave them some agency and atmosphere

[arctic talon]

And goes into some of the more political aspects of the imperium

[crisp heath]

Our Martyred Lady is great, but I don't know how much someone who isn't familiar with The Gathering Storm will like it

[bleak badge]

I’d like to learn more about the emperor too.

[honest trellis]

Hmm there are lots of ways to go about that

[arctic talon]

The Emperor is pretty shallow as an actual character tbh

Very broad

[bleak badge]

He seems rly vauge and I wanna figure out what rly happened with him

[honest trellis]

I'd argue that Eisenhorn is a great way to start 40k with a detective story- that has stuff in common with darktide

[arctic talon]

He’s meant to be vague

He puts on a lot of personas

[arctic talon]

I’d agree with that

[honest trellis]

The Emperor gets some elaboration in the Heresy

not too much and it's contradictory

but you'll learn more about him and his goals

[crisp heath]

Eisenhorn has a lot of weird stuff in it, but they're good books that will hold your hand and explain most things to you

[arctic talon]

Imo the fact it’s contradictory makes sense

[bleak badge]

That’s kinda what I wanted to learn

[arctic talon]

He’s wearing dif faces

For what needs to be done

[bleak badge]

Like his primary goal

[honest trellis]

I'd say to start with Eisenhorn as it has stuff in common with Darktide while still introducing you to the wider Inquisition and 40k

[bleak badge]

What was he even doing this for

[arctic talon]

Ensure the survival of humanity

At any cost

[honest trellis]

*take over humanity

[arctic talon]

That also

[bleak badge]

Isn’t that why he like

Subtly lead humans

[arctic talon]

He wants to control humanity and ensure it’s survival