40k-lore-chat

[celest dome]

Clancy is less regarding on how it's ip is used, and LotR is weird

[brittle slate]

Wheel of time. Reacher. Hanna. They dictate absolutely what they want/need.

GW isn't going to get direction they'll get input, at most.

[celest dome]

Amazon announced today that it signed a deal with Games Workshop (GAW), giving it IP rights to the “Warhammer 40,000” universe, a massively popular tabletop miniature wargame. This is the first deal of its kind for Amazon, the company claims.

[celest dome]

Depend on the contract

They are the one that are sought after, they are the one that can put limitation and stuff

[brittle slate]

GW? not really.

[celest dome]

No, really

[brittle slate]

They're one of the hardest companies to work with, historically mind you since it's been 10+ years of people trying to turn their content into something tangible.

[celest dome]

Take Twilight for example, when they made the movie there were clause that let the author decide much more that in other stuff

[celest dome]

Yes, and they still are hard to work with

They would have covered their base

[brittle slate]

The first thing that was ever developed was angels of death and it took a first-time filmmaker and a youtuber to convince them they could do something with animation.

[crisp heath]

Amazon has movie rights, nothing else, from everything I've seen. They can put whatever they want into the movie, even things like female space marines or tyranids that talk, but they cannot do anything to novels or codexes or anything other than films.

[brittle slate]

but they had complete control and the most they could appeal to was the existing fanbase

[brittle slate]

the only way GW can grow is by loosening the rights on their IP and they are slaves to their shareholders

their shareholders got fat because of covid and they need something more

that more= is amazon

which is a 3d chess making deal

they already sell the majority of GW content and a healthy chunk of material

[celest dome]

This all assumptions, we simply don't know

[brittle slate]

assumptions of what?

[celest dome]

We don't have the contract in hands so what ever we say is just theory, you theorise on how GW should act, I do on how GW has acted

[dusk patrol]

We have no idea what the deal is and how much say so GW has over any movies and scripts

[crisp heath]

I'm literally of the exact opposite opinion. While I agree GW has made terrible lore decisions, I still think it's best left in their hands with some pressure from the community to produce the content people actually want, and I wish they'd recognize there is a strong group of lore-onlys who want a good story and they'd stop treating novels like advertisements for their toys.

[dusk patrol]

Or if Amazon is making shows, going to put WH+ stuff on Prime or whatever else

[brittle slate]

in the history of hollywhood no one has ever had that kind of clause

ever.

star wars? billions of dollars to purchase the rights

[dusk patrol]

That's just wrong

[brittle slate]

Lukas was not apart of the resulting films but was there for input

[dusk patrol]

JK Rowling for example had a shitton of input and say so over the Harry Potter films

[celest dome]

Twilight come to mind, several book based film, I think one of the Hunger Games follower was like that too

[crisp heath]

I'm trying to find the article, but I do recall that it was explicitly said Amazon only bought film rights.

[brittle slate]

... as an executive producer.

[dusk patrol]

Ok and?

Do you think she didn't have it written in that she was going to have that position? Or she didn't leverage that?

[brittle slate]

do.. do you not know what an executive producer is?

Quick question, what do you do Eternal?

[dusk patrol]

I know that none of us know the nature of this contract

[brittle slate]

Like, as a job?

you can be vague.

[crisp heath]

GW is genuinely a media powerhouse rn. They're pulling in record profits, they're more well known, lore-onlys are buying minis. They aren't going to sell it all away that easily, especially since they've weathered some tough times over the last 40 years.

[brittle slate]

Do you think they have even a mild percent of what amazon makes a quarterly?

real talk

[crisp heath]

Oh absolutely not, but more than enough to keep their execs living easy lives

[brittle slate]

more people generally know about DnD, right?

[brittle slate]

i'm not arguing that

[celest dome]

And how does that matter, if Amazon want to do stuff they don't want to they will look elsewhere and do it with other companies

[brittle slate]

but, if we were going to look at fringe nerd IP that actually influences sales you would point to DnD before 40k, right?

[brittle slate]

exactly

[dusk patrol]

I mean it’s simple, none of us know what’s in the contract

[brittle slate]

so, if GW wants/needs to do business they're going to have to play by the rules that every single middle-stage IP has to

[dusk patrol]

And people are talking way too affirmatively about something which isn’t even technically done yet

[brittle slate]

sidestep. Okay.

[celest dome]

GW isn't in a state where they have to beg for money

[dusk patrol]

Oh so you have the contract on you then?

[brittle slate]

no, but they have to improve stock

[crisp heath]

No, because I genuinely think Warhammer, both fantasy and 40k, are becoming very important in the market. What caused the DnD boom also caused the Warhammer boom, and these are going to be markets to watch for the next decade. Tabletop in general is cool now.

[dusk patrol]

Like jfc

[brittle slate]

just because this isn't your industry you don't need to get butt hurt

[dusk patrol]

I guess we have a bunch of high level contract lawyers in chat here

[crisp heath]

Marvel sold because comic books don't sell anymore. We are just seeing the beginning of the rise of tabletop as mainstream.

[dusk patrol]

I’m actually a high level contract lawyer who works for major studios

[brittle slate]

agreed

but none of the IP has been overtly successful yet

[dusk patrol]

So you’re wrong because it is my industry now, and as a lawyer I say we all know nothing about this contract

And declare myself right

[brittle slate]

I'm going to call bullshit

[dusk patrol]

Like jeez, speculate and all that but none of us even know if this will actually finalize for sure right now

[brittle slate]

simp.

moving on.

If you look at the previous contracts of DC or Marvel they follow a pattern

as much as LotR follows a pattern (there's a public reason why that show fucked up and most people can spot it with a google search)

Modern contract work by studios requires (hard R) complete operational control

[celest dome]

DC, Marvel and LotR aren't relevant, they aren't owned by the same company

[crisp heath]

Oh absolutely. But rn Warhammer is in a space between LotR and smaller companies, and if the execs were smart, they'd follow that pattern and keep their IP. GW could genuinely make bank if they keep control of the property, but I will admit some execs may not see it that way and just see Amazon throwing out a big number.

[brittle slate]

The streaming giant has closed a deal for the rights to the miniature war game.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/henry-cavill-warhammer-40000-amazon-1235283251/

Amazon has secured the rights to the tabletop game

Vertigo Entertainment’s Roy Lee and Natalie Viscuso teamed with Cavill to secure the rights and deliver them to Amazon.

[crisp heath]

Oh. I'll read that article in a minute, but it does contradict what I've seen thus far.

[celest dome]

Doesn't mean that they have creative rights

[brittle slate]

That means Vertigo and Cavill have operational control over the IP in this given form.

That absolutely does.

There would be no point in announcing it if they didn't.

[celest dome]

No it doesn't necessarily mean it

[brittle slate]

If you get the rights= you have control

[upbeat dagger]

why tf would amazon not get creative rights

[celest dome]

You can have different contracts giving rights, with different controls

[brittle slate]

Otherwise it would be "Games Workshop is producing a 40k title with Vertigo and Cavill"

[upbeat dagger]

they wouldnt accept that

[brittle slate]

not with an announcement like that.

[celest dome]

Because that often happen, authors want to protect their stuff and companies want to make films, so they negotiates

[upbeat dagger]

ok but also

[crisp heath]

Honestly this feels like Homestuck all over again. I still don't know who actually owns Homestuck, all I know is it's a dead project which is shocking for how huge it was. This kind of gap between fans and creators can kill projects, and with this much confusion I'm genuinely worried this might be the end of Warhammer, both Sigmar and 40k

[upbeat dagger]

you really think Amazon would accept anything less

[dusk patrol]

As a contract lawyer I would like to say one brief article from the Hollywood Reporter doesn’t make us all experts in how the contract works or how the company will proceed with making stories and what not

[brittle slate]

... you clearly don't work in hollywood.

[dusk patrol]

Actually I do

I’m a high level contract lawyer

[brittle slate]

Then we've likely met.

[dusk patrol]

Not likely, I’m too high level for you

[crisp heath]

yeah I left room for that. Every publication will be a bit different. And all information I've seen other than this one article points to something different, and even in this article the terms are vague

[brittle slate]

lol, you sound like you're playing make believe.

[crisp heath]

I doubt amazon owns the tabletop, I'll put it like that.

[brittle slate]

they don't.

[celest dome]

I don't expect GW to accept more than needed
Giving certain leeways, but not total freedom

[brittle slate]

As much as Eternal is a lawyer.

[celest dome]

They won't own the Ip

[brittle slate]

If you think about it it actually is a perfect move on the part of GW

[brittle slate]

they don't- but they do own this venture

[dusk patrol]

The most likely thing is GW decided they trust Cavill to honor the IP and agreed as long as he has a position to veto decisions

[brittle slate]

and if it sucks, then GW gets to sidestep the car crash

[celest dome]

Giving small freedom is what GW has always done

[upbeat dagger]

comes into chat to talk about lore cuz i has questions
contract bs

[dusk patrol]

But, the much more likely thing is we have one fucking article which is a few paragraphs with barely any info

[celest dome]

Can still ask

[brittle slate]

Amazon... would literally... never allow allow. That would be like giving a director final cut.

[celest dome]

Would let us go away from the useless contract talk

[crisp heath]

You can ask about lore! I'd be happy for that kind of discussion

[brittle slate]

and the only people that get that are cameron.

[dusk patrol]

And because I’m such a high level contract lawyer, I auto win this discussion and by that right declare we’re moving on

[celest dome]

Unless you have insider info, you don't know, no one does

[brittle slate]

im fine with that. I just know Eternal is full of shit.

[dusk patrol]

Oh wow

Man he’s a detective too

[brittle slate]

it's like cosplaying in text

[dusk patrol]

As a high level detective I actually know greebles is really lying

[crisp heath]

Um, I'm not mad at you eternal. I don't know why it's hard to believe someone when they say they're a lawyer? youre ok.

[dusk patrol]

And so I auto-win this too

[upbeat dagger]

so, a friend telling me about the Sisters of Battle having organs that fire missiles?

like organ instrument

[brittle slate]

... yes

[upbeat dagger]

pipe organ, but the pipes are actually missile salvos

[dusk patrol]

Yessir

[celest dome]

Yes

[dusk patrol]

Kinda

[crisp heath]

Yeah, they do that.

[dusk patrol]

And its awesome

[crisp heath]

its a tank thing

[upbeat dagger]

yesmam but i get u

also thats amazing

SoB are so ridiculously over the top

[brittle slate]

Much like this pic, I can prove everything I'm saying as much as eternal is cosplaying.

[crisp heath]

SoB is basically "Sistine chapel, but it will kill you"

[brittle slate]

yes

[upbeat dagger]

ok next question

[dusk patrol]

As a high level cosplayer I can actually tell you I’m not cosplaying

[upbeat dagger]

i actually heard this in Bricky's vid: do they actually drop churches from orbit

[dusk patrol]

Also sorta yes

Depends on what you mean

[celest dome]

But you can't prove what's in the contract, unless you have insider info, and are ok with breaking several clauses in contracts and stuff

[celest dome]

Not exactly

[dusk patrol]

But there are lots of deployable drop fortresses or keeps that work like that

Also titans arguably

If you consider those churches

[upbeat dagger]

lemme find what bricky says

[dusk patrol]

Which some do in the Imperium

[brittle slate]

to the left

[crisp heath]

Oh god Bricky values entertaining over education. His videos are very hit or miss about lore, and Ridiculous is best as background noise. Sororitas can do things like suddenly put congregations and even buildings on the ground, but the closest to dropping churches from orbit I can think of is the way they treat some of their tanks.

[dusk patrol]

Drop pods get really fucking big in the Imperium

[brittle slate]

titan size.

[dusk patrol]

The pods they use for titans are absurd

[crisp heath]

I'm, focusing on the church thing. I don't know if Sororitas drop pods are different, but I know of a couple occasions where they dropped their tanks straight from orbit.

[brittle slate]

oddly never shown

[crisp heath]

Sororitas tanks are really durable and really catholic

[dusk patrol]

I'm not aware of any images of that exactly in terms of a church like struture.

[upbeat dagger]

"They drop churches from low orbit as drop pods into battles"

exact quote

[brittle slate]

i've never heard of that description in actual lore

[crisp heath]

Yeah i've never read anything where sororitas use church-like drop pods

[upbeat dagger]

either way, this is so insanely over the top

[crisp heath]

But bricky is not a lore nerd, even though he pretends to be. He gets a lot of stuff wrong, or at least uses weird interpretations.

[upbeat dagger]

if admech didnt exist sisters would probably be my favorite

[upbeat dagger]

fair

[dusk patrol]

Its possible there's some excerpt of them using a large drop pod which looks like a church

[upbeat dagger]

hes what got me into wh tho so

[dusk patrol]

But I've never seen it

[upbeat dagger]

he gets a point fro me

also what's a melta?

[dusk patrol]

Heat blast gun

[brittle slate]

Temeter saw a huge shadow dropping towards the horizon on pillars of retro-rocket fire, and then felt the earth tremble like a struck bell. Every Astartes in the bunker left the floor for a split second, and he heard the ferrocrete roof crack with the shockwave. The captain peered out and saw a massive cylinder standing upright in a shroud of steam, some distance beyond the zone where the drop-pods had put down. It was easily the size of a hive-city habitat block, guidance fins still glowing cherry-red with the heat of re-entry. There came the mighty moan of stressed metals and the sides of the cylinder fell away, trailing flexible pipes and streams of white vapour. From inside the monstrous drop-capsule came the hooting call of battle-horn, and then planes of steel and iron emerged from the smoke to become a colossus bristling with armour and guns. The ground resonated with each thunderous footfall as the Imperator-class Titan strode towards the Choral City.

[upbeat dagger]

so like a flamer?

[dusk patrol]

no

More like a beam

[celest dome]

A Plasma flamer

[dusk patrol]

Concentrated heat

[brittle slate]

microwave gun

and, at least originally, an invisible beam

[celest dome]

Really depend on the game and stuff

[brittle slate]

better when invisible...

[upbeat dagger]

ok so basically they fire heat instead of fire

[shadow plover]

they're probably referring to these drop pods

[brittle slate]

yes

[dusk patrol]

Basically

[upbeat dagger]

so basically a melta is more of an armor destroying weapon?

[dusk patrol]

To simplify it

[brittle slate]

oh shoot

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

Short range

[crisp heath]

a melta is literally a welding machine cranked up to 11

[upbeat dagger]

ah so yah that would fucking shred armor

[dusk patrol]

But they blast through damn near everything

Melta charges are also often used

[crisp heath]

lots of hot very fast

[brittle slate]

in the original descriptions it cooks everything and shoots through terrain and cover

[crisp heath]

a melta gun and a melta charge are really different though

Melta is basically the imperium's word for "really hot"

[dusk patrol]

They both follow the same principle, short range extra heat.

[upbeat dagger]

on the topic of weapons is it even possible for a normal person to use a stormbolter

[brittle slate]

no

[upbeat dagger]

i feel like the recoil might dislocate their arm

[brittle slate]

you need to be astartes or power armored

[dusk patrol]

Its not the recoil

[celest dome]

Yes, if they have Power Armour (I think the SoB had some at some point)

[dusk patrol]

Its too heavy for them to use

[celest dome]

They just are extra heavy

[upbeat dagger]

even our in game bolter is super heavy

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

Well, pretty heavy

Its normie sized

[celest dome]

Stormbolter is like a Bolter and a half

[dusk patrol]

There's a few normal dude patterns

[celest dome]

in weight

[brittle slate]

two bolters

[upbeat dagger]

its criminal that Ogryn dont get a bolter

[brittle slate]

too special

ogryn=slave.

[celest dome]

has component that aren't there twice

[dusk patrol]

Even normal marines don't normally use Storm bolters, and they're typically seen used by Terminators.

[crisp heath]

I'm ok with ogryns not having bolters, its a "complicated" weapon

[upbeat dagger]

fair

[dusk patrol]

So even if normal dudes could use them

[brittle slate]

yes a second grip and trigger

[celest dome]

Heavy Bolter on the Ogryn will maybe come with the Gunlugger

[dusk patrol]

They're too rare and valuable

[upbeat dagger]

also is the "bonehead" an ogryn mentions the implant that makes em smart

[brittle slate]

bolters are basically religious weapons

[upbeat dagger]

*relatively

[crisp heath]

also I don't think a bolter fits with the ogryn's playstyle

[dusk patrol]

Terrible quality

[crisp heath]

Ogryns tank and crowd control. Most of their weapons stun multiple enemies and tear through poxwalkers.

[dusk patrol]

But a stormbolter shares systems for both barrels

[brittle slate]

the past.

[crisp heath]

a bolter kills one enemy really fast. It's a zealot or vet thing.

[dusk patrol]

Besides gameplay balance reasons

[upbeat dagger]

ah ok

[dusk patrol]

Ogryns typically don't use that complex of weapons

[brittle slate]

and most of their ballistics double for melee

[dusk patrol]

Which bolters are

[celest dome]

Gunlugger can have Bolt expertise, letting them use a Heavy Bolter

[sinful crater]

even if our ogryn is "intelligent" they have a limited one... complicated weapon is out of his league

[crisp heath]

yeah a bolter is weird both lore and gameplay wise

[dusk patrol]

But the game also ignores Ogryn deficiencies with weapons too

Like them reloading the stubber so easily

So, who knows

[sinful crater]

heavy bolter will not happend.

[dusk patrol]

It could

I don't expect it

Autocannon is the only one I think is for sure.

Or super likely

[crisp heath]

The game leans a lot on ogryns being boneheads. In lore, ogryns are basically incapable of taking care of themselves and need a "mother figure" through their whole lives.

[brittle slate]

eh

stubber

[sinful crater]

the trouble is not they can't do it... it's more it will be impossible to balance without break the weapon identity

[dusk patrol]

I mean they've balanced force and power weapons

[crisp heath]

Holy shit did I just project onto an ogryn?

[dusk patrol]

And actual bolters

plasma weapons

[upbeat dagger]

what are Boneheads

[dusk patrol]

Its a game

[crisp heath]

an ogryn with an implant that makes them smarter

[celest dome]

Autogun survive alongside the Bolter, no reason there wouldn't be way to do the same on the Ogry

[sinful crater]

let's not talk of power weapon and high tech weapon, the one in the game are...

[brittle slate]

Among the dim-witted Ogryn species there exist certain rare individuals who, despite their primitive mind-set, exhibit a rare glimmer of intelligence, problem solving capabilities, memory, or natural drive. Such individuals quickly stand out among their brethren, making them ideal candidates for Biochemical Ogryn Neural Enhancement.

[upbeat dagger]

oh, BONE

[dusk patrol]

There's plenty of heavy bolter types and it wouldn't break anything to have them in this game.

[sinful crater]

let's be honest one second they try to make power weapon be balanced in comparaison of thing like devil claw of catachan that are basic machete

[brittle slate]

the ogyn character in darktide is essentially a bone'ead

[dusk patrol]

And even if they just made it a gun which can fire the current bolter rounds we have, it would be fine.

[celest dome]

Oh right, Heavy Bolter fire the 0,9 right ?

[dusk patrol]

Like I said, I don't expect it, but it could easily fit in just fine.

Technically the force sword for the psyker should be one shotting almost everything in the game

[upbeat dagger]

also is the description of "it's not that you didn't move out of the (i think commissar?)'s way, it's that you didn't move fast enough" actually something you'd get executed for?

[dusk patrol]

Same as most of the power weapons

[upbeat dagger]

the in game description

[dusk patrol]

It doesn't because balance

[upbeat dagger]

what power weapons are there aside from the sword

[dusk patrol]

Thunder hammer

[crisp heath]

Um, do ogryns make anyone else feel bad? I have a brother with a learning disability and sometimes ogryns feel really mean.

[dusk patrol]

Power maul

[upbeat dagger]

ooh

[sinful crater]

the trouble is the balance, a heavy bolter is death incarnate in this type of game, i means already heavy stubber is good, but if they add heavy bolter why not take it... i means it something that unleash explosive bolt at high fire rate

[brittle slate]

they are slaves...

[celest dome]

Possibly, there are plenty of worlds in 40k where the law is very much against you

[dusk patrol]

Ok and?

[upbeat dagger]

i know DRG balances its heavy autocannon by having a huge splash with little impact damage

[dusk patrol]

They can balance it in a lot of ways

[upbeat dagger]

its basically a heavy bolter in concept, heavy explosive shells

[crisp heath]

yeah but like my point was that ogryns honestly feel cruel to people who live in the real world. I don't like the way they're portrayed.

[dusk patrol]

Make it carry not much ammo, slow reload

[brittle slate]

yes,

[celest dome]

Pretty much any normal weapon can have any of the following: Force, Shock, Sonic, Chain or Power

[sinful crater]

and we come back at what i have said before, can't add it without balance it and destroy the weapon identity, then why add it?

[dusk patrol]

Make it have a lot of recoil

[brittle slate]

that's.. i mean, yes

it's awful*

[dusk patrol]

Because the first statement is wrong

[crisp heath]

I was just wondering if it was just me! It's something in the lore I really don't like.

[brittle slate]

that's also why when the tau hit taros the ogryns rebelled and joined them against the imperials

[brittle slate]

totally

[dusk patrol]

They could literally just make a HMG version of the current bolter and put it in and it would work fine

Also FS is pretty bad about dlc weapons being OP as is anyways

[sinful crater]

exept it don't exist... means you want them to create something that will become cannon for the TT

[brittle slate]

like, nork dedog (sp?) is an exception amongst untol billions of ogryns who are literally a slave caste

[dusk patrol]

I'm talking about how they do the damage

[brittle slate]

being taken advantage of

[upbeat dagger]

I feel like Darktide does the Ogryn the best they can, all things considered

[dusk patrol]

Heavy bolter could easily just function like the current bolter

[celest dome]

There are high explosive Bolts

[dusk patrol]

But more ammo, more fire

Less control

[brittle slate]

sure

[upbeat dagger]

like yeah in lore its kinda mean

[dusk patrol]

It would work fine

[upbeat dagger]

i 100% agree with that

[brittle slate]

at the end of the day though, ogryns and rattlings are abhumans and are very much a slave/subservient class of human

[celest dome]

It's not like the Heavy Bolter has to be balance against the Bolter, just Ripper, Stubber and other Ogryn Weapon

[upbeat dagger]

i think FS handled em OK tho

[crisp heath]

Um, I'm going to be honest here. I just don't like that they're a "retard" stereotype. I have mental illness and my brother is severely disabled, and a lot of times the ogryns act like the way bullies say we do.

[brittle slate]

welcome to the broadstroke world of gw

[dusk patrol]

I guess I would say that, its a fictional world

They are actual dumb people, they're not supposed to be you

Or your brother

And its ok if they're dumb or simple or whatever

[brittle slate]

let me translate "deal with it. buy models"

[sinful crater]

we are talking of ogryn, that are technically as strong (physically than space marine) then yes technically they can use this type of weapon... the trouble is how balance it in a game like this... i means right now bolter is kinda the strongest weapon in the game in terms of efficiency... the heavy bolter will simply be op as fuck... plus why use the heavy stubber if you have a heavy bolter.

[crisp heath]

Um, I'm sorry. I'm drunk. I'm going to duck out of this server for a while because I can't think clearly. Thank y'all but it's a whole situation.

[dusk patrol]

"Big dumb strong guy" is an archetype old as time.

[brittle slate]

gauss rifle. or pulse rifle.

way more powerful than a bolter (lore)

[celest dome]

Longer reload, slower RoF, higher spread...

[upbeat dagger]

I get where you're coming from, take care of urself

[sinful crater]

even a plasma is technically more devastating than a bolter, check what they have done to it in the game...

[dusk patrol]

To add to what Heretic said....

FS has added dlc weapons in the past which are just better.

The Coghammer for example just kinda kicks the ass of so many other options

Not in very aspect, but in general

Dual Hammers

Mace and Sword

Axe and Falchion

It also could be an exclusive gun for the Gunluggar

[celest dome]

And the additional classes too

[brittle slate]

right, and a pulse rifle and gauss rifle are both basic issue for both factions

[dusk patrol]

There's a lot of ways they could balance it, or in FS fashion, not balance it

[brittle slate]

both weapons are more devastating than a bolter

[upbeat dagger]

so, question

why is a lasgun considered the weakest gun in lore

[dusk patrol]

Its not

[brittle slate]

because it is

[upbeat dagger]

dont like, regular guns exist

[dusk patrol]

That's memelore

[brittle slate]

it's just the most efficient

a las gun can operate in any environment

[dusk patrol]

There's a ton of guns lower than lasguns

[brittle slate]

it's the perfect weapon to be mass made

[upbeat dagger]

cant it recharge off the hear from a campfire or some shit

[brittle slate]

that's a heavy hand

[brittle slate]

yes

[dusk patrol]

Because its just wrong

[brittle slate]

the las gun is the most efficient weapon

[celest dome]

It's not that weak

[dusk patrol]

We see constantly in novels lasguns being better than other guns or considered better

[upbeat dagger]

also question; is there an RPG TTG for warhammer?

[celest dome]

It work most of the time

[brittle slate]

but it has all kinds of weaknesses

[dusk patrol]

All of the weapons do

[brittle slate]

there are two

[dusk patrol]

Only like at the absurd tiers do they not

[sinful crater]

let's say i humour you, let's go with balancing a heavy bolter since you don't see the point. and why use VT as example is bad @dusk patrol....

heavy bolter will shoot explosive ammo, slower fire rate? how you explain that a bolter can shoot almost as fast than a heavy stubber... reduce the ammo? heavy bolter are heavy weaponery that is means to be a high fire rate weapon like a gattling with explosive ammo... if you want slow firing heavy hitter with limited ammo... you have auto cannon... heavy bolter is... a pain to balance.

[upbeat dagger]

I'm very interested in WH40K but like the idea of an RPG over the PvP TTG

[brittle slate]

here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathwatch_(role-playing_game)

[celest dome]

You don't balance to the Bolter, as they aren't on the same character

[brittle slate]

All you need

[dusk patrol]

Well there's a Rogue Trader game coming out soon

[upbeat dagger]

rogue trader?

[dusk patrol]

Soonish

Uh

[celest dome]

From Owlcat

[dusk patrol]

Think Privateer in space

[mystic geyser]

There's a bunch of rpgs... dark heresy, only war, rogue trader, black crusade

[dusk patrol]

Or sanctioned pirate, sorta

[upbeat dagger]

ok so deathwatch is all space marines

[dusk patrol]

Its more complex

[sinful crater]

and we come back to what i have said early.. if you balance a weapon to the point to break his identity...don't add it.

[dusk patrol]

But its sorta like that.

[brittle slate]

dark heresy is the only one that's a slam dunk incredible

the newer one is garbage

[upbeat dagger]

is there anything that allows for fairly open choice of playable characters?

[dusk patrol]

Well first, it doesn't shoot as fast as a heavy stubber in lore typically.

[upbeat dagger]

like how in darktide we have psykers, guardsman, humans, and ogryn all in one place

[brittle slate]

yes:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/rogue-trader/support/PDF/Forsaken Bounty (web quality).pdf

[dusk patrol]

They're generally slower rof compared to other guns like that.

[celest dome]

But there are way to add it while keeping it balanced:
Less ammo than the Stubber
Same ish RoF and spread
Longer reload and ranged preparation when pulled out
And no melee attack

[brittle slate]

in rogue trader you can basically play as anything in the setting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Trader_(role-playing_game)

FFG did the 40k universe best out of any IP holder

[dusk patrol]

Like, I'm gonna be straight, I don't think I can convince you Beldhan and I don't really care to write up a whole thing which I've already gone into as to why I think it would work

[sinful crater]

quid of the explosive ammo that will shread everything, why the heavy stubber is balanced right now is because you can't really kill high armored target with it. (carapace armor)

[brittle slate]

they do 40k better than 40k has done since 2008

[dusk patrol]

Like you seem really committed to the idea that it wont work

And personally I don't think its a super high chance we get it

[celest dome]

By having less ammo, like how it is with Autogun and Bolter

[brittle slate]

it's a pretty random argument and shoot be in.. like theory crafting @sinful crater

[dusk patrol]

But I do think it would work fine for reasons being stated and what I sai before.

It could both be balanced and keep its identity

[celest dome]

To be honest, we haven't really talked about lore much today

[sinful crater]

let's agree to disagree... plus @brittle slate all my point it's i'm talking of identity of weapon based on lore, then it belong to here.

[brittle slate]

this channel is like 50/50

50 lore

50 literally anything

[upbeat dagger]

25/75 lmao

[brittle slate]

lol

BUT LET ME TALK TO YOU ABOUT LEGAL CONTRACTS

[dusk patrol]

As a higher level lawyer, I'm gonna veto that

[brittle slate]

he means: as a professional cosplayer*

[dusk patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/saltzpyre-saltzpyre-no-warrior-priest-no-saltzpyre-warrior-priest-no-vermintide-gif-24413806

I represent my clients here who have given me a simple message

[sinful crater]

because if you want to talk of weapon that are shitting on the lore, let's talk of what they have done to the eviscerator, thunder hammer and the plasma... who is the ad mech that did decide that a vent system must be oriented in direction of the face of the user!

[upbeat dagger]

bet it's hadron

[dusk patrol]

Well this eviscerator also seems to not have a power field

So the simple answer is, we just get shit weapons

[sinful crater]

and are too short

[brittle slate]

"crude"

[upbeat dagger]

ok dont u talk shit about the eviscerator tho, that thing shreds

[sinful crater]

at beast the eviscerator we get is more a two hand chain sword... and they sell it like a eviscerator

[celest dome]

The lenght is alright, like it's much more sensible as is

[upbeat dagger]

also arent we given like the shittiest of shit tier weaponry

we're not expected to come back

[brittle slate]

no

[upbeat dagger]

afaik

[dusk patrol]

I do dislike how the chain function for chain weapons doesn't cleave really.

[brittle slate]

some of the weapons we have are unbelievably potent

[sinful crater]

if we was given the shittest weapon we will not have access to plasma weapon :x

[celest dome]

Possibly, they aren't the best grade at least

[upbeat dagger]

i love just ripping one enemy in hf

i mean, shittiest as in of each model

[dusk patrol]

We're given lower tier weapons but still good stuff in the grand scheme

[upbeat dagger]

it'd explain why a lot of the weapons are gimped compared to lore

[dusk patrol]

Also....

ITs a game

Balance and all that

[celest dome]

Should cleave till max Mass or max cleave to be best

[brittle slate]

anyone handling a bolter is going to be a higher tier than most of humanity

[upbeat dagger]

how does Cleave work even?

[dusk patrol]

Should we technically probably be able to get power weapons which can always be on mostly?

Yeah

Why do we not?

[upbeat dagger]

the stat

[dusk patrol]

Game balance

[celest dome]

Necromundan Ganger sometime have Bolters

[sinful crater]

not even a trouble of balance... thunder hammer is more about the simple fact that you unleash a tons of kinetic energy and not even it will release a blast... thunder hammer are technically not power weapon

[brittle slate]

they make them

on necromunda

one of the jewels in the crown if you will

[dusk patrol]

Bolters aren't even that uncommon in the guard its just a specialist weapon, but that goes for all our weapons mostly.

Its like a plasma gun

They don't give it to everyone

[brittle slate]

the guard are still elite in 40k

[dusk patrol]

But its not like, absurdly rare

[upbeat dagger]

also wait, if the plasma gun exists wtf is a lasgun

i thought the lasgun was just a plasma gun

[celest dome]

Laser vs Plasma

[brittle slate]

a rare weapon that needs specialist training

[sinful crater]

yeah they are top of the shelf stuff... like power sword

[celest dome]

Las->Laser

[brittle slate]

jesus, you aren't tau

[upbeat dagger]

lasers dont have any-

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[upbeat dagger]

yknow what sure, why not

[warm crest]

Our in game Bolter is Arbites issue ]

Aka its an FBI gun

[celest dome]

Recoil ?
Can be explained by how the power is made into a laser

High Wattage and all that

[upbeat dagger]

no no no i mean

[brittle slate]

i don't think a bolter has much recoil comparatively

[upbeat dagger]

it shouldnt stagger

[brittle slate]

but... i also don't care

[upbeat dagger]

i can actually see how a pulse laser could be a weapon

actually yknow what

[warm crest]

Isnt it venting heat?

[upbeat dagger]

if we go with the lore idea of the blast being hot enough to vaporise flesh

[sinful crater]

here the plasma is balanced around the fact that they are technically like sienna baton... (and here it's more theory crafting vs lore) the weapon have a small charge for shoot (even the basic shoot) you have heat, vent deal damage to you and you can charge it.

[celest dome]

It basically turn matter in overheated plasma (At least on Lascannon)

[sinful crater]

venting is super long even the one that deal damage it's faster to simply reload...

[warm crest]

There are no vents or heatsinks on the Lasgun so all the superheated air just comes out of the barrel and throws the weapon backwards

[upbeat dagger]

i can see the stagger coming not from the laser, but from the impact from mini explosion

[celest dome]

Depend, like recoiless Lasgun aren't the most rare, but they do exist

[warm crest]

Like, I've always assumed that Lasguns have weak recoil but not no recoil

[celest dome]

They don't really have barrels, they have lenses on the end

[dusk patrol]

Or its a silly made up sci-fi gun which doesn't have to make a ton of sense

[brittle slate]

... christ eternal

next you'll be telling kids santa doesn't exist

[upbeat dagger]

ok ok ok but hear me out

[sinful crater]

well it's warhammer 40000 baby.... reality can go shit herself!

[dusk patrol]

I'm all for theorizing don't get me wrong here

[upbeat dagger]

if the lasgun's actually hot enough to vaporise flesh, technically it could stagger

[brittle slate]

but...

[dusk patrol]

But like, its rule of cool and feel

That's it

[brittle slate]

then just let the convo happen

[dusk patrol]

I'm not stopping it

[upbeat dagger]

listen i love bending over backwards to explain stupid stuff like that

[brittle slate]

instead of being the kind of easter bunny that tells kids the eggs are plastic and the candy will cause tooth decay

[dusk patrol]

But its just important to know there's not really gonna be a satisfying answer

[brittle slate]

it's like 9/10ths the hobby

[dusk patrol]

Especially because in universe its inconsistent if it does or not

[brittle slate]

then... you know... maybe just bow out

[dusk patrol]

No?

[brittle slate]

a chain sword doesn't make any sense

[sinful crater]

i'm 100% with you on this point, but we come back to what i have said... balance can be bad for weapon identity (lore) leading to weird case, where a power maul have a AoE on his special when a thunder hammer (a FREAKING thunder hammer) don't have it.

[brittle slate]

then continue being a fucking sour puss? i mean, sure!

[upbeat dagger]

yall are like constantly at each other's throats

[dusk patrol]

You're the only one being triggered by it

So maybe you should dip

Take a breather

[brittle slate]

i'm enjoying the conversation. you're a major let down.

anyway

[upbeat dagger]

fuck did i miss

[celest dome]

Nothing much

[dusk patrol]

Greebles get agitated easily

[celest dome]

Just someone getting agitated for no reason

[dusk patrol]

Common trait

[brittle slate]

eternal... being a math teacher

[dusk patrol]

I do agreed the Thammer needs some love

[sinful crater]

joke aside...balance and lore are kinda something a pain to find... balance with it

[brittle slate]

you can't do it

[dusk patrol]

Its how it do be, at the end of the day you can't do both

[sinful crater]

yeah that the point

[dusk patrol]

But FS has found a nice medium mostly I think

Some weapons definitely need a bit more imo

But whatever

[brittle slate]

as an example- transport craft are sized smaller than they should be

while troop types are "truescale"

[warm crest]

They do have barrels, just barrels filled with lenses. Dum dum

[brittle slate]

but the larger forgeworld transports like a manta are truescale

[sinful crater]

some weapon did find the right place and some need some adjustement if they don't want to change the mechanic behind, i will take the example of the plasma... if they want to leave it like this they need to change 3 thing for make it a good weapon

[dusk patrol]

We're also taking on daemonhosts and Beasts of Nurgle and hundreds of veteran traitor guardsmen every mission

[honest trellis]

Vehicle scaling in 40k is a hilarious mixed bag yeah

[celest dome]

They have lenses on the end of it, so the air can't go out of the "barrel"

[dusk patrol]

ITs a game at the end of the day and you have to look at it like that.

But I do think FS has mostly done right by a lot of the weapons

[honest trellis]

Weapons being more or less effective can be handwaved as master crafted/ "made for mortals"- nothing in game is really out the ordinary for what you might get in Dark Heresy

[dusk patrol]

The Thammer also tbh more is just badly balanced for gameplay purposes

[sinful crater]

1. take out the damage on the vent.... 2) increase the damage per shoot for make it a decent against target with high hp compared to some weapon like bolter that can empty magazine in not time.... and finally, make it ignore the shield of the bulwark... you make it able to shoot throught door, small wall and cover but a simple sheet of metal can stop it.

[dusk patrol]

But the bolter, most of the lasguns, power sword, power maul, slab shield, ripper, heavy stubber, autoguns, psyker force powers, mostly all work fine for me with how they should function.

[celest dome]

Special attack not having cleave (Till it hit enough Mass) is very sad

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[warm crest]

Ohh, then maybe excited ions or some shit like that running through capacitors

[dusk patrol]

Needs aoe like the Paul

[sinful crater]

special attack of the thunder hammer is means to unleash soo much power that it's like a thunder did hit...but all this energy don't make an explosion... maybe the warp did eat the energy! it's a plan of tzench!!! heresy!!!

[celest dome]

That's what I prefer as explaination, had a tranfo jump on me once due to wires being cut while powered

[dusk patrol]

I think the issue was it was so broken in the beta with the previous Preacher build

Could like, three hit Plague Ogryns on damnation or whatever

with the right setup

But then they nerfed some of that setup and now the hammer itself doesn't have an identity really

[sinful crater]

we don't ask for more damage we ask for an aoe around the special... i means you have a long ass charge time plus a recoil on the attack...

[dusk patrol]

or not one worth using over others

But yeah AoE like the Paul would improve it a lot I think

Or some at least

[sinful crater]

maybe not as big as paul, it's kinda op right now, but about 5-7 meter around the target.

[dusk patrol]

I just really want the Melta even though I don’t think it’ll be worth taking mostly

[brittle slate]

Powerfist.

[sinful crater]

they don't want to make power fist because you can't use two hand weapon with it...

[celest dome]

Powerfist as additional weapon (Pistol and Powerfist, and Sword and Powerfist)

[sinful crater]

and i say fine with me, it will give a purpose to pistol version of the weapon!

[brittle slate]

?

[celest dome]

I mean, you can take of the powerfist

It's like a glove

[sinful crater]

yeah, they have said no powerfist because you can't use two hand weaponery with it... means no rifle and such

[brittle slate]

so a pistol

[celest dome]

Have they said something like that ?

[warm crest]

Transfo as in transformer?

Damn

[sinful crater]

yeah seems so

[celest dome]

Yes

[warm crest]

Oo

[celest dome]

But a small one

[dusk patrol]

Maybe once they add an officer class

And we inevitably get the bolt pistol

[brittle slate]

that's dumb. then just make it for the ogryn

[warm crest]

Well if you want to get real technical with lasguns the sheer amount of electrons flooding a diode from a flushing capacitor would likely create a small kick

[dusk patrol]

Unfortunately, this game isn’t Call of Duty, so we can’t get the power fist.

[warm crest]

But it won't be that much

[dusk patrol]

Or something like that

[warm crest]

Damnit

[brittle slate]

that doesn't make any sense

powerfist.

[dusk patrol]

Well neither of us are Fatshark CMs

[sinful crater]

even sergent can use powerfist you know

[dusk patrol]

It’s only a tale they understand

[brittle slate]

yeah

[dusk patrol]

It’s a reference to what the CM said about mods dear lord

[sinful crater]

technically our vet must have access to nades launcher, flamer and stuff like this... where is my plasma pistol?

i want the same than the one used by the boss!

[brittle slate]

I'm sure it'll happen

[dusk patrol]

Probably to be added later

If I had to guess

An officer class will bring both

Plasma pistol and bolt pistol

[celest dome]

Prob

[brittle slate]

Powerfist, plasma pistol, melta, it's all coming i bet

my dreams hope for a Ryza pattern las

[celest dome]

Force Halberd/Glaive for the Psyker is what I'm hoping for the most

[sinful crater]

my dream a Sororitas class for get access to all the firey weapon they have evil smiles

[celest dome]

As cosmetic or different weapon ?

[brittle slate]

different weapon

[celest dome]

Which one ? Multi Flamers ? Certain could be introduced by a Zealot Redemptionist class

[sinful crater]

i hope they will avoid subclass and add more class

but i know it will not happend sadly

[dusk patrol]

Flamer pistol would be fun

I guess

[brittle slate]

I doubt you'll get anything straying far from the original classes

just more extreme versions

like after rank 30 it would make sense to become a Redemptionist but not a SoB

[sinful crater]

sororitas can bring some nice stuff too, like a hospitalier class

[brittle slate]

i don't think you'll get that drastic a branch off

we're rejects

not heroes

a stormtrooper might make sense

[sinful crater]

well did you see some of the choice of the vet background? because seriously it's all exept reject

[brittle slate]

hence a stormtrooper

sisters are effectively from childhood

[sinful crater]

plus let's say my dream come true, it will not happend before an expansion adding them as something special

some of the background of the zealot are litterally screaming sister

[brittle slate]

fair enough

[celest dome]

Archetype would take so much time, classes would let us get new grenades and abilities some what fast

[sinful crater]

i will not be surprise that the zealot at the base was a sister and they did decide to go with the zealot for allows both sex or worried to balance it

[brittle slate]

hm

then a hospitaler for level 30+ for a zealot
stormtrooper for guardsman
primaris psyker for psyker

official bone'ead for ogryn?

[sinful crater]

yeah, specialization for our character after he join the warband can be nice, i means you join the warband then you can easily get access to some new training

[celest dome]

The Class is the training you get

You start as a Psyker and end up as a Psykinetist

A bog standard Ogryn and become a Skullbreaker in the Warband...

[honest trellis]

TBH given they're throwing in a buncha fairly obscure lasguns that's actually not impossible

[celest dome]

Obscure lasgun ?

Kantrael is the basic lasgun

Lucius is basically as known

[dusk patrol]

Accatran is somewhat obscure

[celest dome]

Akkatran is still not obscure I'd say

[mystic geyser]

It's pretty obscure

[celest dome]

Less known maybe but obscure is a bit much

[dusk patrol]

It’s basically only used by Elysians in lore

Or that we’ve seen that I can recall

[mystic geyser]

Plenty of options left

[celest dome]

I think some would be good as cosmetic, like Ryza and Mars for the Lucius

But not the other

[molten orbit]

Ryza looks a bit... Eldar

[warm crest]

Van Saar Lasgun?

[warm crest]

Weird way to spell "Stygies Pattern"

[celest dome]

Riza is very Atompunk
Don't remember what the Stygies pattern lasgun look like

[vital kernel]

You'd assume anything with internal mechanism has at the very least a report, if not actual recoil.

a big part of recoil mitigation in real guns is just messing with the internal mechanisms to create less momentum

[celest dome]

Or counter momentum

[vital kernel]

yes

You'd assume a Lasgun has relatively chunky switches that connect your powercell to the firing mechanism whenever you pull the trigger. Those would have to be reset by some sort of spring or magnetic pull after each shot or your gun would simply have a runaway reaction and blow it's entire mag.

So yes, it is perfectly reasonable that a Lasgun has recoil to a degree.

[mystic geyser]

Necromunda patterns would also be cool skins

[celest dome]

Esher and Van Saar

[vital kernel]

I hope we get more Lasgun variants outside of cosmetics too.

[mystic geyser]

Van saar one which is really good but very very slowly fills up your corruption bar

[vital kernel]

that would be a fun mechanic

[celest dome]

Well apart from Hellgun/Hellpistols
Paired Pistols (Like either Sword and Laspistol, or Laspistol and Powerfist)
Longlas
Multilas and lascannon (Ogryn), maybe Lascutter too

I wouldn't really want them over anything

Like I'd rather just get Hellgun, paired Pistols, Multilas/Lascannon/Lascutter (Same body but different barrels, like the Staves)
And the Longlas

And then have other types of weapons

[undone zodiac]

Rotator autocannon for ogryn

[celest dome]

Not a Las weapon so didn't count it

But in term of ranged for the Ogryn there is some fun stuff we could see

[vital kernel]

Las is fairly complete as of now.
Plasma really needs some love.
Pistol, light and heavy variant of the rifle.

[mystic geyser]

Yeah makes sense

Other ogryn weapons from the slave ogryn range which could work.
Power fists.
Heavy Rock Cutter
Arc welder
Las cutter
Storm welder

A Spud-Jacker would be cool too.

[vital kernel]

Light: lower overheat increase, 20% less damage on regular shot, no charged shot
Heavy: 20% higher damage on regular shot, charged shot does AoE

Plasma Cannon Mk5 "Heretics Bad Day" Pattern

[celest dome]

Stormwelder are augment, I could see reason to say that they wouldn't work

Same way with the Augmentine Fists

[mystic geyser]

You get handheld versions too

It's not much of a change

[vital kernel]

We're already seeing augment cosmetics tho, no reason not to leap into augmented weaponry for the slave ogryn too.
Maybe one of his arms will be augment from the get go and just exchanged for various types

[celest dome]

The problem would be on how do you change from melee to ranged and viceversa

[vital kernel]

powerfist: throwing a handfull of bolts
ranged augments: whacking them with the weapon

[sinful crater]

i'm curious to see if they will add it honestly, if they are going it gonna be fun.

[vital kernel]

yeah

they already added the Ogryn, thats a bigger step than most people would have expected them to

and the promo material does include more elaborate loadouts

[mystic geyser]

Particularly fancy flamer. Partial ogryn void armour.
A long rifle?

[celest dome]

Just a Staff

[wary mesa]

Hello lore masters

[celest dome]

Gutentag

[wary mesa]

When does the action take place in darktide? speaking about the year we are in

[vital kernel]

hello banan

[mystic geyser]

@wary mesa
Modern 40k period. Indomitus Crusade is underway, and the cicatrix maledicum is present.

[vital kernel]

Era Indomitus, sometime in the 42nd Millenium.
Probably around M41.005

[mystic geyser]

I doubt youd get an exact year, it's not like anyone even knows any more

[celest dome]

Brahm still say its the 41st Millennium, so prob around 41,990

[vital kernel]

Brahm doesn't know shit, she's reading from old script

the 13th Black Crusade began in 999, so thats not possible

[wary mesa]

41st millenium means we are year 42,000 or more no? like we are in the 3rd millenium

I love the characters interactions about morrow and how old is he

[vital kernel]

40.000 and onward was the 41st mill. 41.000 and onward is the 42nd.

[novel hearth]

yeah so its like 2000+ is the 21st century

[wary mesa]

oh yeah

[vital kernel]

technically we are in the 3rd millenium, but thats not a measurement regular humans can relate to, since it's countless generations before anyone will get out of it, though most people are still born innthe 2nd millenium funnily enough

[sinful crater]

well the vet of cadia did see the fall of cadia.... then

personally for the date i'm totally lost from the indomitus crusade

[mystic geyser]

It has been retconned from 100 years to 12

[celest dome]

Same

[sinful crater]

means our character can clearly be in the actual timeline?

[vital kernel]

yes, pretty much

[sinful crater]

means we can get the new lasgun of the codex?

[celest dome]

Which one ?

[celest dome]

That's just a kantrael, just with a better model due to molding technology being better

[barren tapir]

Also jury rigged on the field, since you know... Things have been a bit rough

[plush mason]

is it just me or do the bars of the prison cell in the prolog look like the ogryn could just snap like twigs if they wanted to?

[vital kernel]

I suppose we'll get the kantrael skin of the new cadians

hopefully

it looks sleek

[celest dome]

Sure, but you'd still be un armed with Guard that won't be pressed to take you alive

[celest dome]

True, maybe with Karskin inspired armour

[vital kernel]

A proper Cadian field kit cosmetic would also be dope

[plush mason]

yeah true

[vital kernel]

I do enjoy the cosmetics lore snippets

[north lotus]

I’m a triplex pattern guy

[celest dome]

Stil no Stygies pattern one

And the picture was a bit higher than my comment too

[vital kernel]

unearthed concept art

[plush mason]

lol

[final solar]

Delicious tech-heresy

[celest dome]

Isn't Stygies stuff usually more Necron-y ?

[final solar]

It’s Xeno in general

Are you referring to their portrayal in Mechanicus or some other source?

As far as i am aware, Stygies are interested in all Xeno tech

[celest dome]

Doesn't Mechanicus feature Mars Admech ?

[vital kernel]

Yes, but you have a Stygies priest along.

[plush mason]

and a metallica one

and some strange skittari huntmaster with yellow robes

idk which force world they are from

[final solar]

Plus the dlc adds Stygies Heretek

[signal bramble]

I like that the dude wearing the gas mask has a pack of cigarettes strapped to it. I imagine him smoking underneath it.

[vital kernel]

Well, you take it off for that

[mystic geyser]

Finally got around to the Luetin09 Lore deep dive video. I'd assumed it was a fan lore video, but yeah he clearly has had access to a whole lot of history details not available elsewhere.

[plush mason]

this is a voxcaster right?

[brittle slate]

I bet you it’s further down the timeline then tabletop

[celest dome]

Yes

[brittle slate]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the game stuck to the 100 year time difference

It would make sense with the ancient looking primaris statues everywhere

[shadow plover]

they don't look that ancient

[brittle slate]

It would be weird for statues of a relatively new imperial formation to be in places of honor on a hive planet

[shadow plover]

it's probably after plague wars and still during the indomitus crusade

[brittle slate]

100 years is still during the indomitus crusade.

[shadow plover]

yeah but current timeline isn't that far into the crusade right?

and I doubt the timeline change from plague wars isn't taken into account

[brittle slate]

There really isn’t a “current” timeline anymore if I’m being honest

It’s “after” the rift opened and the indomitus was launched

GW has abandoned timelines and dates

[shadow plover]

yeah and characters in darktide are obviously still getting used to the idea of guilliman, primaris and indomitus crusade

[brittle slate]

They were never that good at them after the OG writers left

[shadow plover]

not something that has been going on for 100 or more years

[brittle slate]

There isn’t galaxy wide internet/communications. Especially now

[shadow plover]

no but they're still at the better side of the rift where it's still relatively easy to communicate

[north lotus]

FUCKIN KNIFEEARS REEEEEE

[shadow plover]

and Morrow being a second war of Armageddon veteran can't make it too long after that ended in 943.M41, but he has still probably had some rejuvenating work done

[brittle slate]

That’s true. Honestly I feel like we’re just “in 40k”. The need to replace OG space marines is a corporate requirement. One day kids will just think primaris are marines

[shadow plover]

eh, a bit too cynical approach to my taste

[brittle slate]

Because it would be weird for a planet to be under constant attack to have the time to put up statues of marines that came into being a decade ago

They could have said that the planet was initially relieved or something but I don’t think they really ever mention marines in game* lore

[shadow plover]

there even is mention of primaris being as the new shit in dialogue

by one of the veterans

[north lotus]

I will say that they appropriately fit the scale in miniature format compared to the normal SPACE MARHINs

[brittle slate]

Well they’re new models

All the models are taller

[north lotus]

When compared to guard

[brittle slate]

Look at the new guardsmen

And Deathwatch are slightly taller

Model wise

[north lotus]

Granted the last time I bought minis was 2018 to build a tempestus scion kill team

[brittle slate]

They specifically blame warp travel on how he can be so old

The characters are absolutely acting like it’s a decade from the rift

But the locations imply longer/ or a history that involved primaris

[north lotus]

I’d say a couple of years.

[shadow plover]

they do speculate that and they do also mention rejuvenats in another dialogue

[brittle slate]

But again- the retcon timeline really puts a damper on plausibility

[north lotus]

10 years in 40k isn’t a long amount of time

[brittle slate]

In less than 10 years everyone has primaris all over the galaxy

[shadow plover]

the statues could be like only year old too before the outbreak

[brittle slate]

Again- odd for someone to build new statues of new heroes if the rift had you under assault and cut off from everyone

You build statues to honor heroes

Who were the primaris on tertius

[shadow plover]

have they been cut off though

[plush mason]

how are we able to stay in vox contact without a voxcaster?

[honest trellis]

on the other hand, very on brand for Imperium to prioritize NEW MARINE STATUES

that said the refusal to acknowledge firstborn is getting dumb

[brittle slate]

If they were on the planet

[honest trellis]

"On the planet, citizen?"

[brittle slate]

I don’t see word coming down describing what primaris are with plans to make new statues

[honest trellis]

"The Primaris Space Marines are *everywhere and the angels of death, therefore statues"

[brittle slate]

It isn’t Star Wars it’s space dark ages

[honest trellis]

I can honestly see a department of NEW STATUES just...doing that

[plush mason]

the SM sequel will be about the primaris so its only gona get worse

[honest trellis]

I'll laugh if there are no firstborn designs/customization

firstborn armor for multiplayer was half the charm

[plush mason]

even Titus is a primaris

[brittle slate]

I think it’s clear it’s just product replacement

And I’m overthinking it because I like OG marines

[honest trellis]

Honestly the longer we go without mk 7

the more I kinda despise the look of tacticus

[brittle slate]

Yeah

[honest trellis]

It's 7/10 as its own thing

it's a terrible default mark

and the lore fails storytelling 101

[silver hawk]

Mk 7 armor was cool

[plush mason]

isnt the whole point of mk 10 that it takes the best of all the other SM armors and combines them?

[silver hawk]

That’s the lore for it but it was really just “we need a new armor because the primaris are too fucking big”

[plush mason]

ofc

the lore for most things in 40k literally exists for similar reasons lol

[mystic geyser]

you could have a small local vox, relayed by a voxcaster nearby (like the one in the image)

[plush mason]

always remember that this whole setting exists purely to sell TT minis

[brittle slate]

I just hate primaris in general. So mishandled

[plush mason]

in the prolog it says you pick up a "vox bead" after you jump down into the tunnel so i guess we just use those boosted by near by voxcasters/stations

[brittle slate]

Not really anyones fault except for the guy that wanted them to be a new type of astartes

Should have just been the armor

And then I was on board with Seth’s rejection of them which showed drama and nuance

But now everyone has them cart-blanch

[celest dome]

Wasn't the Space Marine game also featuring Sm that are closer to True Scale like the primaris anyway ?

Also it's carte blanche

[brittle slate]

Cart-blanch. My phone says so with auto correct.

And that’s good enough for you

[mystic geyser]

we have a lot to thank Mr Blanche for.

[celest dome]

English is being weird again

[silver hawk]

Point being if everyone has primaris they’re not the special are they now?

[brittle slate]

Can’t replace every ducking autocorrect decision in a war-hammer forum

[celest dome]

Primaris were just there to update and resell a lot of SM minis

And at the same time have better scaled one

[brittle slate]

Right but a few months before they decided to make them a new variant

[sinful crater]

primaris are not means to be special, but the new type of space marine, we can hate or love it that how it will be, the lore situation is.... well as it is... the goal was simply giving a new wind to a faction that did barely change for years after all.

[brittle slate]

Getting new models every quarter must have been so hard…

[silver hawk]

Imperium gets new shit quarterly specifically the astartes

[sinful crater]

we don't talk of new model, but new type.

[brittle slate]

I have no sympathy for space marines as a faction. They get most of the books, most of the models, most of the games.

[sinful crater]

before you had devastator, assault, tactical, scout and basically for the troops outside special rule per chapter that was it.

well the game was made for them at the start then :x

[full bane]

They were cool when the leaders and major characters were stasised Heresy and post-Heresy Era Marines used to fighting Legion style.

But as they become more and more standard the coolness and nuance kind of dries up

[brittle slate]

That’s a worn out excuse.

[brittle slate]

Yeah the rubicon thing is laughable

[full bane]

Now it's just "Oh we converted all the named characters to Primaris and everyone gets newly created primaris marines"

[brittle slate]

It’s not a big deal if everyone survives the surgery

[sinful crater]

not an escuse, just a fact... outside this i don't support all this, i found that imperium have too many faction right now compared to other and wish they add more to the other

[full bane]

INCREDIBLY DEADLY!
Minimal success rate?
FEW SURVIVE!
Every single named character becomes a Primaris marine

[brittle slate]

Hence why I’ve always thought a civil war makes the most sense

But “the imperium couldn’t handle it” bros reeeee to loudly

(Because civil wars are only when it’s convenient)

[full bane]

The initial pitch was great imo, if we'd gotten new named characters for the Primaris who were Legion Era marines and a few newly created guys it would have been better.

[sinful crater]

civil war happend more in time of peace than time of strife.

[full bane]

Ramp up the Primaris vs Firstborn strife.

[shadow plover]

I mean sure but imagine how mad the fans would be if one named character died to something as benign as primarification

[brittle slate]

Or guilliman vs the high lords

[sinful crater]

the high lord did try remember

[shadow plover]

wasn't there a very recent book where the black templars killed a whole bunch of primaris marines

[brittle slate]

He is an abomination brought back by forbidden tech and literal eldar necromancy

That’s enough for people to want to burn the witch

[full bane]

I'd like to have seen an emphasis on the whole Primaris as a resurgance of old style Legion warfare vs the adaptability of the Firstborn under the Codex as well.

[signal bramble]

Throne of Light.

[brittle slate]

ADB and his Spears of the Emperor are a great example

[vital kernel]

Now that "Firstborn" have essentially the same statline there is no real contention going on. I personally have not included a single Primaris into my army because I don't like their look.

[signal bramble]

They touch upon it briefly in avenging son but the marine that realizes it just kind of shrugs it off.

[brittle slate]

Hero.

[silver hawk]

I use first born because they’re the easiest to come by for me

[brittle slate]

Dumb.

[full bane]

And more prominence of Firstborn on the Nihilus side of the Cicatrix while Guilliman slaps entire replacement chapters for those out of contact without their knowledge.

[vital kernel]

I just use HH Mk.3 Crusader models for my 40k Marines. I prefer their vibe.

[full bane]

Overall there's a lot of interesting plot points in the current plot, they just aren't elaborated on enough.

[signal bramble]

The firstborn vs primaris thing is also touched upon a little bit in the great work.

[silver hawk]

Is that legal?

[full bane]

Hopefully with enough time, editions, and novels, these gaps can be filled back in.

[vital kernel]

Yeah why not.

[full bane]

I meant lorewise and in the narrative.

[silver hawk]

Reference to another series

[full bane]

Heresy Marines armour is still around in 40k, it's just not the standard.

[signal bramble]

For firstborn yes.

So long as they have the right weapons.

[silver hawk]

Bolter, melta, flamer, plasma

[full bane]

Your basic tactical squad has a Mk6 Corvus legs, some Mk5 bits. It's a whole mix of stuff, and the Captain and all that have Mk4 and Mk3 bits as well.

[signal bramble]

Certain tournaments require your models to be 100% accurate to your roster.

So you couldn’t proxy them as primaris.

[sinful crater]

by the way primaris still can't use land raider, right?

[signal bramble]

You can include it in the roster but they can’t go in the transport one iirc.

[brittle slate]

Or drop pods

[signal bramble]

They expect you to use the repulsor.

[brittle slate]

Lol

[brittle slate]

Mmmmmmmoney

[sinful crater]

shrugs

[full bane]

No riding in the cool kid mobile

I do like Primaris though. At least aesthetically and force org wise.

[sinful crater]

same i like what they offer as army, just sad to loose some of the cool kids tool

[full bane]

They just feel underutilized narratively and lorewise to me.

Like there's so much potential in the plot for them to be more than just "space marine 2 GOTY edition"

But outside of a couple of references and novellas they're exactly that.

[vital kernel]

My dudes are a voidborne Chapter that still keep the Mk3 because they mostly engage in boarding actions etc.
I think the antiquated look fits the half forgotten nature of them, put a lot of love into them for lack of talent.

[plush mason]

iirc someone said they retconned that as that was just an "early bug" that crawl has since worked out and now its much safer with a way higher success rate

[sinful crater]

if they have retcon the timeline and only 12 years did pass, normal

[vital kernel]

Personally I don't understand why GW wouldn't put up statues of Mk3 or Mk4 marines, since those are plastics currently sold and it would not really hurt them financially to promote anything but Primaris.

It sure feels like that acknowledging the viability of anything BUT Primaris is undermining their legitimacy, creating doubts of why they were made in the first place. It is and remains a tightropewalk of lore in my opinion. They were not necessary, they don't add anything.

[full bane]

Probably because they're meant for specialist games and Primaris are their main push for mainline 40k.

The Horus Heresy kits are aimed at existing players for the most part.

Or people already into the Space Marine rabbit hole.

[vital kernel]

I kind of fell out of the Space Marine rabbit hole, started with them years ago, dipped into Imperial Knights a little but then went all into Adeptus Mechanicus, with Marines only remaining a nostalgic token portion of my hobby.

primarily because of Primaris

[full bane]

Primaris Marines look pretty cool tbf, (at least the base version does) you've got the Mk4 helmet with its grille, the raised gorget of the Mk8, arms which have the Deathwatch style readouts, and the rest builds off the Mk7.

[plush mason]

ye

i assume there is a mk9?

[full bane]

Nope, it's missing

We jump from 8 straight to 10

[brittle slate]

Cool

[brittle slate]

And for a company to spend such meticulous detail on the background it has to be for a reason

But it’s a silly thing to harp on. Just unfortunate.

[brittle slate]

Is anyone up on the arks plotline?

[storm jungle]

Hasnt it been literally just cheap tarot slideshows

[plush geode]

so, some of the banter between the veterans talk about skaven marksmen/sniper, Are they like the skaven from fantasy or completely different?

[arctic talon]

Not out yet unless you mean the creepy teasers

[arctic talon]

Ratlings are halflings

Not skaven

[plush geode]

Alrigth,thanks

[arctic talon]

Space skaven sorta exist?

We know space rat men are a thing

But that’s about it

[storm jungle]

Ratlings not to be confused with Ratling Gunners

Who are a play on Gatling Guns

who are not to be confuse with Ratlings from 40k who are Haflings

who are not to be confuse with the Halflings from LOTR

[arctic talon]

[storm jungle]

Its okay I stopped 💀

[brittle slate]

Ehhhhh

[storm jungle]

They existed but got dropped yeah

literally only some jes goodwin concept art exists

[brittle slate]

Yeah

Hrud we’re going to be them until they turned into predator spring people

[arctic talon]

Nah there’s another minor xenos race that are described as rat like

I forgot their name

They got mentioned in like a single fucking blurb in a codex

[celest dome]

Old lore Hrud were more rat like

[brittle slate]

oh, i don't know them

all the better

i think most fantasy ports are poor form

beastmen in 40k feel absolutely wrong

[arctic talon]

Beastmen are just abhumans in 40k

Which feel ehhh

[storm jungle]

It kinda works?

Warhammer Fantasy had them as just mutated humans too

[arctic talon]

Yeah

The fact a lot of them are imperial aligned is intresting

Tbh

[brittle slate]

But they’re abhumans

Not warped by chaos

[storm jungle]

Eh same thing

mutant is mutant

[brittle slate]

… uuuuum

[storm jungle]

Dont look at me like that

🐂

[fierce pendant]

[storm jungle]

AAA-

[full bane]

Was it the Stryxis? They've got the whole slaving, scavenging, under-your-colony hidden away aspect.

[arctic talon]

Uhhh I think!

Not sure

[storm jungle]

Wasn't Stryxis literally just:

"What if we took the Merchant from Resident Evil 4 but made him an alien"

[arctic talon]

I know that they don’t get along with eldar

[full bane]

Though they're also space nomads who steal shit and sell things.

[arctic talon]

But I’m pretty sure it is the stryxis

[full bane]

Yeah also that

[brittle slate]

Yes

[full bane]

Sounds like the Stryxis.

[brittle slate]

Mole people

[fierce pendant]

smh gw gave the merchant more identity than capcom ever could 😔

[full bane]

Little gremlin people who murder the elves on sight and run an illegal black market under your house.