40k-lore-chat

[celest dome]

Because there was more space for the lore

[dusk patrol]

Or not good lore

[brittle slate]

they dropped the timeline

[dusk patrol]

Votann lore is bleh

I don't mind them not wanting to date stuff, I just want lore.

[brittle slate]

and the way they ran the writer's rooms

[last lagoon]

Chaos writing has been pretty wack lately

[brittle slate]

they've lost almost all their big authors at this point because they refuse to give them the credits they need/deserve

[brittle slate]

i really wish ADB had finished Abaddon

[last lagoon]

I do wonder what other people they are gonna focus on in the renegades series

[dusk patrol]

He's done with the book

[brittle slate]

fingers crossed

[dusk patrol]

Its just not been released

[brittle slate]

ive got high hopes

[dusk patrol]

He's said as much on twitter, I imagine they're just waiting to release it

[last lagoon]

Is it ADB or Dan thats doing the last two siege books

[dusk patrol]

Probably time it with a chaos release

[honest trellis]

Dan

[dusk patrol]

Abnett is

[last lagoon]

Ah

[dusk patrol]

At least two

and then you can release Pandemonium Dan fucks sake

[last lagoon]

Gotta wait then until Dan rewrites everything to connect to Bequin and other future books creating the Abnett timeline

Has Dan used the word volumptuous in the HH yet

[honest trellis]

Reminder that ||Pariah cloning|| canonically is the path to victory over Chaos

gg no re

cough Inquisitor martyr

cough abnettverse

[celest dome]

Is Martyr considered cannon/relevant ?

[honest trellis]

Amusingly the writing is entirely consistent with the abnettverse

[last lagoon]

Dan wrote Martyr?

[honest trellis]

no

I'm saying the plot point crops up

[last lagoon]

Ah

[celest dome]

Which points are similar ?

[honest trellis]

spoiler tag

lead writer for martyr is some guy called Viktor Juhasz

[brittle slate]

Everything with the logo on it is canon

You get to roughly choose what you think is the truth

[honest trellis]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/14/14th-june-inquisitor-martyr-part-4-mysteries-of-the-caligari-sectorgw-homepage-post-2/

caligari sector seems to be at least given a nod

[last lagoon]

God imagine Dan writing a mass effect series and making every small thing you do affect the future

[celest dome]

Blood teef and whatever is cannon ?

[dusk patrol]

Matyr's canon is uh

[brittle slate]

“Everything is canon”

From GW’s perspective. And they say it all the time.

If it’s contradictory, that’s part of the universe.

[dusk patrol]

Most of the video games levels of canon is definitely in question or can be ignored a lot.

[honest trellis]

Honestly Martyr seems more or less consistent

[dusk patrol]

The original Space Marine game for example

[brittle slate]

Not in the opinion of GW.

[last lagoon]

I dont know if you would take the games as canon at face value tbh since its dependant on the player and such if you get my meaning

[honest trellis]

even the weird shit fits abnettverse

[brittle slate]

It’s what makes 40k both brilliant and frustrating

Mostly Internet forums dictate what the community thinks is real or not

But from an official position: it’s all canon but the truth is unknown

[celest dome]

I do remember that the rpg in fantasy weren't ad cannon as the book and the Army book

[last lagoon]

1d4chan commiting a psyop to make everyone think Ollanius actually died to Horus

[brittle slate]

The only real retcons come with big announcements

[brittle slate]

The fact that GW writers mostly use the same sources we do for lore means this literally happens

They also used to draw a LOT from early internet communities

Like Shadowsun and the 3rd sphere were all fan based

The EoT worldwide campaign ork players who got pissed at being lumped in with chaos and made their own empire were written into the next ork codex

And so on

[last lagoon]

I did like how White Dwarf had those "in universe" descriptions of tabletop results

[brittle slate]

They still do sometimes

And they’re bringing back big narrative campaigns and tourneys that influence the writing

[last lagoon]

Also didnt they plan out the black crusades purely by a worldwide tournament and decided thats the worst thing to do

[brittle slate]

They just did one in like Utah or something

[last lagoon]

Or am I confusing it with something else

[brittle slate]

Yes

[dusk patrol]

Then they immediately retconned it

[brittle slate]

The Dark Stars campaign, Eye of Terror Campaign, Medusa V etc

[dusk patrol]

The 13th at least

But the idea is fun

[brittle slate]

Chaos won the EoT campaign.

[dusk patrol]

I think they should do it again just on a smaller scale, maybe with more guidelines

[last lagoon]

I think if it wasnt for a major lore event it would be a cool idea for some smaller to medium in universe events

[dusk patrol]

God man a 40k Planetside style game would be so sick

[brittle slate]

The BFG game even incorporates events from it.

[honest trellis]

lost space, won ground... xD

[dusk patrol]

Eternal Crusade never existed

[honest trellis]

mordax, good times

EoT campaign gets too much hate

the lore from it was really rich

[brittle slate]

Mostly from children.

[honest trellis]

"fate" of konor was more a rigged shitshow

Like come on

[last lagoon]

Like the False Primarch fan blog advances their lore by tabletop I think?

Its really neat

[honest trellis]

False Primarch is more Badab war style

[brittle slate]

Agreed

More Badab

Everyone just needs one. It’s BS to just make it always imperial vs ___

[honest trellis]

tbh the ideal campaign is

[last lagoon]

Orks vs God when

[honest trellis]

1. large scale but not rigged

[brittle slate]

Lol

[honest trellis]

2. everyone says which side they want their points to go to

[brittle slate]

The problem with large scale is half the gamer pop plays imps

[honest trellis]

yeah hence 2

[dusk patrol]

Well they want more than five people to participate....

[honest trellis]

so Imps don't autowin just for having the most support model and rules wise

this way everyone's games matter

[brittle slate]

That’s why you need an imp civil war

[honest trellis]

That too

Ideal would be like

[brittle slate]

If only the break up the monotony

[honest trellis]

a sector or even segmentum

[brittle slate]

Gothic war. Worked for BFG

[honest trellis]

Like, a Bootleg Vigilus type

yeah

Gothic war scale is great

[brittle slate]

It was the perfect game too

[honest trellis]

If they really want to be cheeky

have different modes

eg: kill team, regular 40k

[brittle slate]

That was like Medusa v

[honest trellis]

and have those game modes affect different parts of outcome

eg: "Chaos sent kill teams, but struggled on the open battlefields"

[last lagoon]

Ngl the logistics would seem like a nightmare

[honest trellis]

It's a few weeks

the whole point is to add narrative to friendly competition

Konor's failure was literally making buying models a thing, faction bias

and not having a clear vision

the idea is fine

but Konor was so rigged it wasn't even funny

and wasn't focused on actual gameplay enough

[brisk sequoia]

Love that the mobians are a mix of the modern and old traolitor guard desighns from the nloodied kit and oop forgeworld models

[woeful bluff]

Games definitely set during or just before the indomitus campaign

[vital kernel]

Afaik the Moebian domain is on the wrong side of the Cicatrix, so we're probably set concurrent with the Indomitus Crusade.

[woeful bluff]

Are we on the side of the imperium with no astronimicon

[mystic geyser]

Judging from the comments, I think we are on the Terra side, though i don't think its been hard confirmed.

[dusk patrol]

Supposedly it’s within Segmentum Solar

But we only have the one CM comment and the Leutin video to go off

[devout oxide]

just realized hadron essentially says the litany of iron lmao. close, but not the same, but the same way its said. I love the little touches of imperium characters saying ALMOST heretical shit

[rose gyro]

From iron cometh strength

From strength cometh will

From will cometh faith

From faith cometh honor

From honor cometh iron

This is the Unbreakable Litany. May it forever be so”

Iron Within! Iron Without!

there should be a part about "Only the Emperor and Iron endure" or something out there

[devout oxide]

Yeah its much shorter, she also just says it to the same cadence as its said, which with people like toby longworth on board it just makes me laugh. its like how I cant not hear gol kolea when the bodyguard talks lol

[rose gyro]

well since it was Lorgar who wrote Lectitio Divinitatus...

a lot of traditions that passed on from 10,000 years ago

[pine wedge]

ay yo nerds

enough about rowboat girlyman and the indomitus crusade and the great rift and the god of the dead and the necron-guard alliance and the 13th black crusade

what have the tyranids been up to???

[rose gyro]

eat every Greenskins in Octarius Sector

[pine wedge]

neat

just read about the devastation of baal too

[crisp heath]

They ate a bit more than orks

Honestly Octarius is one of my favorite warzones just because of how it kept escalating

[rose gyro]

well so far the Imperium has it contained for now

[echo vault]

Why is it that no matter what the default for rebels/chaos guardsman is to have some kind of knight armor

Like how in darktide the non guardsman armored scabs have like plate armor

[crisp heath]

pretty sure it's carapace armor with spiky bits

[formal belfry]

Hello everyone, i need some help with 40k lore. So yesterday there's a dev-blog that's been released talking about level design and most importantly...Tertium. im not much interested in tertium itself but what they have mentioned about tertiums contribution to the imperium, and that's the fact that Tertium is a supplier of the Atoma Pattern Leman russ tanks.

I've been doing some amount of research into 40k Camo patterns and Leman russ tank patterns, but i can find no mention of the Atoma pattern anywhere, anyone got more info on this? What they say about tertium should be cannon to the 40k universe no? or am i just being an ogryn brain, please help.

[barren tapir]

It has been created for the game

Yes, it is canon, since GW was part of the development

[formal belfry]

So im not that much of an ogryn brain.

I still wonder what it looks like

i know there's a Leman russ demolisher on one of the maps, but it looks wrecked.

[shadow plover]

I'd wager you can check that out in couple of the maps where you see those demolishers, doubt they differ much from your basic leman russes

[formal belfry]

I will try to play the maps with tanks and take a look, but last time i remember seeing them they're all just wrecked and burned

[shadow plover]

On Throneside I'm pretty sure you can get next to an intact one

[formal belfry]

I'll check asap, and once i do i will return

time for some exploring.

[barren tapir]

The pattern made in atoma doesn't differ for weapons or other stuff, but for the plating... Atoman ore has peculiar traits useful in plating

[celest dome]

There are a few on Throneside and 2 on the bridge map

[barren tapir]

Kinda like the lucian ore made on Lucius forge world

[formal belfry]

mmm, the small issue is there's two thronesides now, does it matter which one?

Comms plex 154/2f and Enclavum barross, Espionage or strike.

[shadow plover]

at least the espionage drops you right next to one when you come to the courtyard

[formal belfry]

perfect

[shadow plover]

and both go up to the bridge

[formal belfry]

perfect

[celest dome]

Baros, Strike, but I think the 2 Throneside map have it

[formal belfry]

im quite sure both have one

[crisp heath]

Honestly I coulnd't even pick out a leman russ from a crowd

brain just says "tenk :)"

[formal belfry]

im just waiting for a buddy of mine to finish whatever he's doing and we're getting on Throneside

[celest dome]

I don't think we see any other tank ingame

[formal belfry]

yeah, im pretty sure its just the demolisher on throneside

[barren tapir]

Didn't you saw the baneblade??

CREEEEEEEEDDDDDD!!!!!

[formal belfry]

man im blind

[celest dome]

Demolisher Leman Russ

[barren tapir]

And i was joking

[formal belfry]

thank the god-emperor

[crisp heath]

I can recognize a Macharius but the double guns on that are pretty distinctive

[formal belfry]

yep

[crisp heath]

If you put two 40k tanks side by side I will always call the bigger one a baneblade

[formal belfry]

the crunch of the pic is killing me

[vital kernel]

You'll only find Demolisher Type Leman Russ in Tertium because those are the ones they produce locally.
To our knowledge no actual Armored Regiment was deployed to Atoma yet, so they make due with what can be requisitioned locally.

[formal belfry]

thats neat actually

[formal belfry]

found this one on the bridge.

then there's these two, but its hard to see them

[rustic spruce]

I can’t wait for when we get genestealers in the sequel, Denimtide

[formal belfry]

olive drab, gray..perhaps this is the atoma pattern?

[vital kernel]

Seems to be just base unpainted export pattern

[formal belfry]

i doubt the other throneside map has patterned ones

well then i've come to the conclusion that perhaps the atoma pattern is a urban pattern or the tanks are unpainted.

[brittle slate]

Which is hard to make sense since they have giant weathered primaris space marine statues everywhere

But based on how long it takes to make games they might have done it before the 112/12 year retcon

Or, it’s another example that primaris marines are just the marines of 40k

[vital kernel]

Metal can weather rather quickly, they seem to be of a sort of bronze which will get flakey after about 3-4 years

[celest dome]

Painting schemes aren't pattern specific, but regimental use specific

[vital kernel]

And the Imperium Nihilus did recieve a good few Primaris when Roboute arrived at Bhaal

And the tanks have no regimental or unit markings at all, suggesting to me that they are merely basecoated fresh out of the factory and assigned to the PDF of Atoma without much in the way of a paintjob, since any regiment they arrived to would have been marking them properly.

[echo vault]

Are blood angels the only ones that can use inferno pistols or can other marines use it

I probably answered my own question remembering sisters of battle use it frequently

[mystic geyser]

Blood Angels are the only marines noted for using them afaik. They are incredibly rare, but do show up with Inquisitors/ sororitas too

[echo vault]

I just wanted to give one to my praetor because inferno pistols are cool

I'm trapped in 30k

WHAT IS THIS

[vital kernel]

some alium creature clearly

[crisp heath]

Jar jar binks

[wary mesa]

why is there so few female ennemies?

[vital kernel]

Theres quite a few.

[barren tapir]

Necromunda stuff, ripperjacks iirc and the beastmaster that tame them

[echo vault]

It looks like a squirrel fused with a mynock

[simple sparrow]

Jeez 40k lore is so bleak. what would the average person have to live for?

[plush mason]

nothing

[simple sparrow]

Sadge

[plush mason]

yeah the dream and promise of humanity is long dead in 40k

[simple sparrow]

Wonder why people i.e. hive city dwellers would keep on living. I guess it just comes down to survival instinct

[vital kernel]

What's your favourite ship yall. Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser here personally. Love them.

[storm jungle]

They dont really have anything else

they are indoctrinated from birth more or less

[simple sparrow]

That is true. I guess I'm looking at it in today's cultural lens

[plush mason]

yeah and if they try to stop the local enforces will likely execute them and a few of their family at least

[simple sparrow]

I read about corpse flour and that shit is so disturbing

Or whatever it's called

[plush mason]

i mean when most of the water in a hive is made from recycled piss eating our dead hab mates isnt all that adnormal

[simple sparrow]

Yeah I read about that too. yeesh

[plush mason]

hive cities are shit

[simple sparrow]

I've liked the 40k setting for a while cuz I just thought it was cool space scifi but this game actually made me read into the lore and it's so depressing

[plush mason]

yeah

40k is literally everything star trek is not

[simple sparrow]

Yeah I'm a huge Star Wars fan so it's kind of a shock to see the antithesis of a space opera

[plush mason]

yeah

[simple sparrow]

Even Mass Effect with the Reapers had a hopeful ending

[plush mason]

"hope is but the first step on the road to disappointment"

[queen fern]

40k is everything most sci fi is not

[plush mason]

"there can be no hope for hope breeds despair"

[queen fern]

I think it pioneered the grimdark genre

[simple sparrow]

Yeah that's why I'm really digging it

[plush mason]

it did afaik

[simple sparrow]

But man is it a downer lol

[celest dome]

Nah, Dune did it before

[plush mason]

yeah but dune still has some bright spots

[queen fern]

dune doesnt look that depressing to me but I havent read much of it

[simple sparrow]

I've neither read nor seen Dune

[queen fern]

Im not rly into it ngl

I love Warhammer for its uniqueness

[celest dome]

Still Grimdark, Warhammer went to far and is more Grimderp

[simple sparrow]

I've also read that the Emperor would definitely not approve of the extreme lack of empathy and stuff if he could see what humanity has become

[plush mason]

yeah but the overall message is still hopeful in dune afaik

[simple sparrow]

Idk if that's true

[plush mason]

which i dont see as grimdark

[queen fern]

same with the chaos gods who had some good teachings

[simple sparrow]

So who's really the bad guy then

[queen fern]

everyone

[plush mason]

everyone

[queen fern]

after all these years of reinterpreting any faith would be butchered

[simple sparrow]

That's why it's hard to wrap my head around. I'm so used to epic sagas having clear good and evil and stuff

[plush mason]

i mean with the imperium its a case of "they had no faith and ended up making one"

[simple sparrow]

What are some exampes of "good" chaos gods btw

[queen fern]

The good guys in warhammer are those who committed less war crimes

[queen fern]

I mean Nurgle teaches to not fear death

Slaanesh teaches to search for the happiness

[simple sparrow]

I was gonna say Nurgle actually seems to be kinda chill

[plush mason]

big e literally wiped out all priests and any other religious classes/systems/groups in all worlds he took during the great crusade

[queen fern]

Khorne loves tradition and honor

but

as I said

after billions of years probably the true meaning was lost

[plush mason]

ummm isnt the whole "good side of the chaos gods" more of a fan theory thing than an actual canon?

[simple sparrow]

So the real question is: Is the warp actually that bad or is it just imperial indoctrination

[queen fern]

there were a couple books about it I think

[plush mason]

chaos and the warp are not one and the same btw

[queen fern]

but the devil is in the details

like in that book of some girl who worshipped Slaanesh

she tried to perfect her art and started butchering ppl

[simple sparrow]

Oh I thought chaos Gods resided in the warp

[queen fern]

arent they in the warp though

[plush mason]

they do but think of chaos as one part of the warp

[queen fern]

warp's like a mirror to the world and since the world is very scuffed atm so is warp

[plush mason]

ye

[queen fern]

so are the gods teachings

[simple sparrow]

What do you mean scuffed

[queen fern]

imo

at war

everything is about war

and theres little happiness in the world left

[plush mason]

tbh "scuffed" may just be the biggest understatement about 40k one can make lol

[queen fern]

lmao true

[simple sparrow]

Isn't the warp always trying to invade realspace or something

And it eventually will

Or take it over

[queen fern]

There was a demon in some world in service to Nurgle called the Rainmaker and it helkped people with growing crops

[plush mason]

the demons are but there are other things in the warp besides them

[queen fern]

that was pretty chill

[simple sparrow]

But at what cost

[queen fern]

when you become nurgles servant you become the embodiment of chill

you dont fear death or that your internals are missing etc

[simple sparrow]

If you can get past the horrific transformation

[queen fern]

ye

[simple sparrow]

But I guess they don't feel or care about it

Even though in Darktide you hear enemies moaning and asking for help iirc. But maybe that's just because it's a plague

[queen fern]

pretty disgusting stuff but it matters on the perspective

[winged dock]

All nurgle cares about is the POX he doesn't actually care about his followers.

Plus you really wanna smell like shit your whole life.

[simple sparrow]

Burgle

[queen fern]

Burgle lol

Grandpa BURGLE

[plush mason]

which is due to nurgle's brainwashing influence because in one book some deathguard got cut off from that influence and instantly hated what they had become and also suffered all the pain from it and most just died on the spot due to it

[winged dock]

Papa Burgle ordering his warp nuggies

[queen fern]

damn

[simple sparrow]

[plush mason]

yeah nurgle is not at all a "nice" god

[queen fern]

gotta keep in touch with Paps then

give him a call once in a while

[plush mason]

in fact you could say he is the worst of the lot

[queen fern]

and be chill

[plush mason]

he is literally an abusive boyfriend

[queen fern]

I like Tzeenchs ideology of pursuing knowledge

[winged dock]

More like try to appease him, regardless of your own health.

[warm crest]

So uhh...

There are Space Marine/Astartes(Dark Angels?) statues in Tertium's Throne side buildings

Why don't the Astartes come back and fuck the shit of Tertium's cults? Aside from there having no Darktide game, I think that Astartes seemingly hate people messing with their sloppy seconds

[plush mason]

yes. imperial propaganda constantly reminds people that the space marines are the emperor's angels and such status are common on most imperial worlds

[queen fern]

Its pretty expensive to pull up any kinds of armies

so my guess is theyre using what they have

[plush mason]

it is very very very likely that not a single space marine has ever once set foot on this world

[queen fern]

till shit gets way too out of control

also ye

btw did Tertium already exist in the lore?

[plush mason]

there is all of like a million or so space marines in a galaxy of quintillion humans

[queen fern]

before they made a game

[plush mason]

no all of this was made for the game

[queen fern]

aight

[warm crest]

"Tertium remembers its heroes, just not what for."

Shit went down bad

Prolly some Grey Knight shit

[plush mason]

well that line was about the lord militant that area is named after iirc

[queen fern]

btw I wonder why did Grey Knights didnt interfere in the whole Cadia situation

[plush mason]

aside from the statues which again are found on every imperial world there is not a single reference to space marines anywhere so far

[queen fern]

since daemon hunting is their specialty

[plush mason]

ye

they dont bother with the mortal followers of chaos unless they have to

[queen fern]

they mightve saved Cadia :(

[plush mason]

nah

[visual lodge]

Part of Cadia's story plays out in battlefleet gothic if you're interested @queen fern

[plush mason]

yeah the intro is about the fall of cadia

[warm crest]

Too lazy and likely called in sick

Who gives a shit about Guardsmen?

[plush mason]

i mean. literally 99% of the imperium doesnt know the grey knights exist

[warm crest]

Prolly started shitting bricks when their laziness caused the planet to break

[queen fern]

ill give it a look

[plush mason]

heads up. its not fully accurate and the other campaigns are basically just "what if" stories

[queen fern]

Ive been told that Cadian vet has a vc about them in game but ive never heard it myself

[queen fern]

got it

[plush mason]

i have never gotten that line

and i main cadian vet

[visual lodge]

heard it once

[queen fern]

what did he say????

[plush mason]

yeah i wana know

[queen fern]

Ive been told its smth like grey knights are not real

the dudes who told me this also main cadian vets

[plush mason]

yeah they literally kill any guardsmen that see them or mindwipe any other space marines that do

[queen fern]

but Ive never found it anywhere on the internet yet

or send them to prison camps

[plush mason]

to be worked to death

and sterilized

[queen fern]

Ive read somewhere that the grey knights themselves are not big fans of that

its the inquisition who makes those choices

[plush mason]

yeah

but few space marines care about normal humans

grey knights even less so

[queen fern]

yep

they're be my favourite type of space marines out of all

I just love them

[plush mason]

i love the grey knights look. and hate their lore

[visual lodge]

You're referring to this correct?

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

[plush mason]

or well most of their lore

[queen fern]

almost started buying the figurines but realized got noone to play the tabletop with :P

[plush mason]

ye

[lilac wave]

Wish they were a bit better on the table top, they feel a bit like worse 1k Sons.

[queen fern]

they look gorgeous

to me at least

thats what got me into the entire warhammer universe

[plush mason]

https://tenor.com/view/perfection-perfect-flawless-ultimate-spotless-gif-13993155

their helmets are

[queen fern]

aye exactly

Id love a darktide-like game about them

[lilac wave]

Special boys, love em all.

A grey knight game would be sick. Probably play a bit like bioshock.

[plush mason]

sadly only the ultramaines get good space marine focused games

[queen fern]

bioshock like slasher with demons

[queen fern]

true

[brisk sequoia]

would love to one day see the shotgun get pattern variation
we currently have the combat shotgun from the fw cadian hardend veteran squad but there were also the elysian shotguns and the dkok engineer squad shotguns
they were acatran and lucius pattern respectfully like the lasgun types

[queen fern]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-snake-revolver-ocelot-engraving-gif-26456286

[plush mason]

is that a.. revolver cylinder on the one in the middle?

[brisk sequoia]

yep it is

[lilac wave]

Doom Clone where you play as Kaldor Draigo in the warp.

[queen fern]

hell yeah

[visual lodge]

But the TTS Kaldor Draigo

[lilac wave]

TTS Draigo is canon. Prove me wrong.

[plush mason]

did GW just sit down and say "lets make some of the most cursed guns we can for this sci fi setting" or something?

[queen fern]

thats some ork boyz tech

[shadow plover]

revolver shotguns are real

[brisk sequoia]

used by the death korps of krieg engineer squad along with the mole launcher a tunneling rocket and the hades breaching drill allowing them to deep strike as well as acting as a giant mele weapon

[plush mason]

so where revolver rifles. also a cursed as hell gun design that flopped

[brisk sequoia]

i mean

[lilac wave]

I love that rocket launcher boy.

[brisk sequoia]

kinda

[vital kernel]

That gun is just too cursed

[queen fern]

lmao this is cursed

[lilac wave]

Holy Jesus. What is that? What the fuck is that?

[queen fern]

top tier heresy

[brisk sequoia]

that would be azreals combi plasma

[queen fern]

Adeptus Mechanicus want to know your location

[plush mason]

im trying to ignore it exists

[visual lodge]

It's ya boi Karl y'all

[queen fern]

what is he doing

is that dude playing doom on a backpack laptop

[brisk sequoia]

when you see the model it admitadely makes much more sense

thoug is still cursed

[lilac wave]

The path of the bolt to the barrel is like a restaurant kids menu maze.

[plush mason]

they remade it thank all the gods of 40k

[brisk sequoia]

no its still like that on the oficial model

[queen fern]

what is the dude in the back doing I need to know

[lilac wave]

Still. I guess the archeotech secret is that the bolts teleport into the chamber.

[brisk sequoia]

the reason why its moved down so far is because of the shoulder pad but ye they dont do under barrel combi plasmas anymore

[plush mason]

the art was updated tho. and i dont think they have made a new model with it yet

and likely wont

[shadow plover]

I honestly believe that the original designer of Azrael's mini wanted to do a cool bullup combi bolter but then realised that for the pose they chose it had to lose some weight on the bolter so it fit with the shoulder pad

[vital kernel]

Of course the Dark Angels keep guns around that defy physics.

[lilac wave]

I think Az is due for a new model.

[brisk sequoia]

acording to some leak we are supposted to be getting a new one

[vital kernel]

imagine if we get a Lion model and he has a giant cursed bullpup heavy bolterplas thrower

[brisk sequoia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK8faIDSZSM&t=28s

[brisk sequoia]

lion has a plasma pistol on his fw model, if he does come back i suspect he will have the same

[lilac wave]

It's somehow even more cursed. The mag well is on top of the gun.

[brisk sequoia]

here we are

[visual lodge]

until I'm corrected, i'm going with homie is looking up where he can find hot, single, eldar babes in his local area.

🤷‍♂️

[brisk sequoia]

The Fusil Actinaeushttps://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1189/6522/products/TheFusilActinaeus_1024x1024.jpg?v=1601079768

he also aparentely uses grenades that warp time in mele

[lilac wave]

"This grenade sends my dick back in time to fuck your mother."

[queen fern]

💀 💀 💀

imagine doing that in the middle of a battlefield

[vital kernel]

"I am your father."
"No you are not."
BAAM
"I am now."

[visual lodge]

Now now, let's get history lessons from "Mr. I'm-my-own-grandpa."

[lilac wave]

Will we ever learn weather or not primarchs are equipped?

[mystic geyser]

Pardon.

[lilac wave]

Do they have dicks?

[mystic geyser]

Sure...
But do they work?

[lilac wave]

If they have them, I imagine they work.

[celest dome]

We do know that some were married

And iirc there is something somewhere about Fulgrim being a good shag

[storm jungle]

Yeah Fulgrim had a lot of political marriages

||They all died of old age||

👩‍🦼

[brisk sequoia]

I know everyone cringes at female space marines but honestly i could see lemian russ having a daughter and her leading the space wolves via winged jump pack like a valkyrie

[rich vale]

I wouldn't say everyone cringes at female space marines honestly

They certainly used to, but in this day and age I think the people who genuinely hate the idea are much fewer

[mystic geyser]

Leman Russ shows up, greets Guilliman. Sorry i've been away, oh and this is my Hier, Briga Lemanssdottir

Guilliman: "Wait, we can do that?"

[barren tapir]

Yes, but i bet they lived their dream life before such end

[barren tapir]

Leman: "brother, do i look like someone who care, or even know, about what we can or cannot do?"

[storm jungle]

Only chuds cringe at them for the most part, don't worry about it.

[lilac wave]

I feel like it'd be done for the wrong reasons, and reek of pandering. It's a huge galaxy and anything is possible.

[storm jungle]

||40k has always been about pandering||

[simple sparrow]

Why would female space marines be bad

[mystic geyser]

pandering is a fancy word for inclusion

[plush mason]

i mean they wouldnt be. its just they would be a waste of a mold for GW

cause i will never accept boob armor marines nor would over half the pepes that want female space marines

[mystic geyser]

I reckon they'll do female custodes the next time they revamp that range

As a test

But female ogryn when

[plush mason]

SOB get a pass due to the whole "no men under arms" thing so their armor has to show they are women

[shadow plover]

and SOB range still has quite a bit male models

[plush mason]

ofc

im just talking about their armor

[vital kernel]

But why

[plush mason]

just expand the sisters of silence

[shadow plover]

oh I see

[plush mason]

yeah boob armor is just horrid save for cases like that

[celest dome]

Which ones ?

Haven't really followed them

[shadow plover]

preachers and what not

[plush mason]

yeah

[crisp heath]

female marines but they're so altered from the space marinification process they're indistuingishable from the male marines...

[lilac wave]

That's fair really. Hard to say why exactly female space marines don't sit well with me.

Is there a such thing as the wrong kind of pandering? Pandering in bad faith? I suppose at the end of the day it'd have to be exceedingly well written.

[lilac wave]

I can't think of a reason why you'd be able tell apart male and female sms. Maybe they could just drop in a line somewhere that says primaris can be made from girls, and no one knew for a while because no one tried.

[barren tapir]

Erda isn't dead and now return with an army of super juiced up female SM to save big E, and then they will be an happy family spanking the bad primarchs and playing with the good ones

This is gonna be a banger story i promise

[brisk sequoia]

There are female ogres for bloodbowl hold on ille fetch images

[vital kernel]

with how terrible genetic compatibility is with male candidates already, I suspect having an entirely different chromosome might be an issue in recieving geneseed.

[crisp heath]

You could check somewhere but it'd probably get you blammed unless you're a chapter serf giving some kinda ritual bath or w/e

[plush mason]

or their armor just doesnt show the boobs. you know like real world combat vests today

[lilac wave]

It could be a minor thing even. Gene seed mutations happen all the time. Honestly uf it's a homebrew chapter you can do what you wsnt.

[earnest snow]

Idc what happens as long as my Harlequins be doing the goofy

[crisp heath]

Yeah but space marine armor is closer to like, classical or medieval armor than modern combat vests, there's male marines with nipple armor and shit

[vital kernel]

the thing is that prebubescent girls being genetically altered into testosterone fuelled war machines would certainly have trouble developing any form of breasts.

[plush mason]

that is true

[brisk sequoia]

Found em https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99550913001_OgreTeamBooster01.jpg some conversion work would be required but you could make it work

[vital kernel]

Female Ogryns make sense at least, they are just born like that

[plush mason]

and that is why boob armor for space marines will never work. boob plate armor doesnt work lol

[earnest snow]

At this point the Imperium can take whatever aid they can get. If anything is to change in the imperium its right now with how chaotic stuff is

So female space marines coming in wouldn't be out of realm of possibility with how much is shooketh up

[crisp heath]

according to who tho? and even if that were true, since when is 40k military equipment governed by practicality?

we have chainswords and plasma guns and worlds of soldiers who fight in ancient and napoleonic styles but boob plates are too far?

[brisk sequoia]

I mean there are oficial female space marine models from the rogue trader days

[earnest snow]

I get what you guys are saying. But you know what? I do like basilisks

[plush mason]

irl having 2 metal orbs on the top of our curaise would restrict movement to much and make weak points

[vital kernel]

Genehanced Women in power armor >>>> female Space Marines

[brisk sequoia]

Nvm found higher rez image they have boob plate

[storm jungle]

no lol

[earnest snow]

I'd rather have more creativity than more of the same. But its whatever at the end of the day

I still got my prancing elves

[plush mason]

yeah they did. they didnt sell well so GW stopped production

[vital kernel]

not to mention regular SM armor is already so bulky, the boobs would have to be comically giant to require a visible outline

[plush mason]

ye

[crisp heath]

Having shoulder pads of the sort space marines do would restrict your movement and no one complains of this, not to mention, frankly, anything that is penning that shot trap is probably punching right through the ceramite regardless, and you could take it in the opposite direction and say there's likeliness for shots to glance off as well on it...

[vital kernel]

like, a regular Space Marine has like 2m chest diameter

[earnest snow]

You see. This is where the warp comes into play...

I can see a 40k fan making fan fiction already

[plush mason]

ye i was talking about irl plate armor there lol

[storm jungle]

Nobody is asking for boobplates tbh

[crisp heath]

I am

[earnest snow]

I am

[barren tapir]

Mate, i don't wanna be shocking, but the sex that has two different chromosomes is the male one... We are XY, women are XX, so they would be easier to genetically change, since what it work with X will work for sure with another X, but most probably not with an Y

[dusk patrol]

Ok there’s definitely people who are

“People”

[earnest snow]

I just want boob plate so I can laugh if they make it too large

Comically sized anything is quite humorous if you ask me

[storm jungle]

Lmao

[storm jungle]

cringe

[storm jungle]

also cringe

[vital kernel]

there would be no boobplate. A baseline male is closer to a baseline female than they are to an Astartes in physical build.
The argument that females should not only also be turned into hulking gene abominations, but also somehow remain visibly female in the process, is laughable

[crisp heath]

I would either like to see female sm turn out either near identical to male sm if you want to go for gritty grimdark or if you want silly grimdark for them to be overly feminine SoB tier but bigger, having them just be like a normal chick but in space marine armor is so boring though

[storm jungle]

Okay thats firstly not official

[crisp heath]

no u

[storm jungle]

secondly thats like

comically inaccurate

[earnest snow]

I need my sense of humor to be tickled

[storm jungle]

Do not try to throw lore into this too because miniatures are made first and story-beats are thrown into their explanation later

[plush mason]

ye

[storm jungle]

so none of these "female anatomy is non-compatible" reasons matter

[vital kernel]

It's the lore channel, I can't help but throw lore into it.

[storm jungle]

its why we got the Primaris ATV

[crisp heath]

you mean the mario battle kart?

[earnest snow]

Bro I just wanna point and laugh at the occasional weird fan fiction if female space marines come out

[crisp heath]

there's already weird fanfiction tho

[dusk patrol]

Hey it looks pretty good if you raise the wheels a bit

And it’s the Primaris Cart

[earnest snow]

Could always use more

[crisp heath]

and the taurox looks okay with wheels instead of tracks, still fucking awful if you take it at its official depiction

[storm jungle]

Its probably because the taurox is just a straight copy of those giant army trucks the U.S Army uses

so there is some real inspiration there

compared to uh

[shadow plover]

hey taurox looks great

[storm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-kart-gif-26262617

[crisp heath]

no...

[earnest snow]

40k Kart when?

Exterminatus instead of a banana

[shadow plover]

tracks are always cooler than wheels

[crisp heath]

I like the fixed autocannons right behind the doors

[plush mason]

um why not just make it a half track?

[shadow plover]

I only say this because I'm a tanker myself

[vital kernel]

I never noticed those autocannons are useless when the doors are open

what a shit design

[earnest snow]

Just shoot through the door ez

[crisp heath]

There's a turret version too, still uggo tho

[plush mason]

i think those are just stored on the side. for the troops to take and deploy. or well i hope that is the case

[vital kernel]

they do not look manportable

[earnest snow]

Are they Ogryn-portable

[shadow plover]

anyways if this thing were a real thing the door would have a mechanical switch that would disallow firing the weapon if the door weren't closed 100%

[vital kernel]

the issue is that they do not seem to have a trigger assembly, suggesting they are remote controlled from the vehicle

[plush mason]

it would take a weapons crew to do so but they are totally manportable

[vital kernel]

the same pattern sure, but that gun is totally fixed to the vehicle

[crisp heath]

also bragg and harker mean we should get autocannon and heavy bolter as options for vet to rambo with

[plush mason]

the muzzle is next to the exhaust...

like touching it

[shadow plover]

the datasheet for taurox has those weapons as it's weapons so..

[plush mason]

yeah

just

yeah

[earnest snow]

The taurox reminds me of a hippo ngl

[queen fern]

giant SoBs would look cool ngl

[plush mason]

it reminds me of a pile of shit. because it is

[queen fern]

and very funny

I kinda always thought they were the female space marines before I read anything about them

[plush mason]

i may just save this so the next time anyone talks shit about the votann's garbage truck i can link it

[earnest snow]

The design looks weird to me, and I'm not too into this kinda stuff.

[plush mason]

its not weird its horrid

[queen fern]

I have a very silly question but

how exactly do Mechanicus cultists reproduce

if they are mostly robotic

or do they just do it before turning themselves into microwaves

[plush mason]

yeah it takes a long time to become mostly robotic

[crisp heath]

they can grow people in vats if they want but I think mostly they'd just convert any they find who are mechanically inclined in the ways they like

[plush mason]

plus most of the pop of the forge worlds are non augmented normally afaik

[queen fern]

got it

[nocturne crest]

Is there any 40k vehicles that use drills?

[brittle slate]

Yeah mechanicus is has a termite

[nocturne crest]

Let me rephrase it.

[nocturne crest]

Is there any 40k vehicles that use drills or screws for movement?

[brittle slate]

… yes 👆

[outer lance]

wait its just the mom

@queen fern https://i.imgur.com/0K0sAQc.jpg

[full bane]

Don't forget the Ordinatus version of it!

EXTRA LARGE DRILL

[earnest snow]

IS THAT DOTTY

[brittle slate]

Aw. I missed the fem marines convo. Next week I guess.

[dusk patrol]

Next week?

[plush mason]

no thats Bereta

[dusk patrol]

More like next hour

[brittle slate]

Fair

[plush mason]

lol

[brittle slate]

So… TAU ARE GOOD GUYS

[plush mason]

https://tenor.com/view/get-out-leave-gtfo-get-out-of-here-gif-6207127

[crisp heath]

ur wrong the end :)

[brittle slate]

https://tenor.com/view/boom-explosion-gif-21768412

[outer lance]

I mean obviously they're not but dont their workers at least get hot meals and a bed and any actually shitty or dangerous work is done by robots?

[plush mason]

ye

[earnest snow]

Bereta be praised

[brittle slate]

And they punish people who commit war crimes. Education. Air conditioning. You also get to retire.

[outer lance]

Yeah see stuff like this makes me not care they brainwashed some bug people

[plush mason]

i cry inside when ever the pugs refuse to bring her head back with us

[brittle slate]

They didn’t- they just america’ed their culture

[earnest snow]

I set C4 just to give motivation to bring her back

[slate yarrow]

From what I understand T'au give workers amenities to placate them but they have no real freedom. If they act out they get re-educated.

[plush mason]

i main engi so and sadly the swarmer nad has replaced my plasma

[outer lance]

So they're either better than or equal to everyone else in just about every stat

[brittle slate]

What would you say is a freedom?

Especially in 40k?

[outer lance]

Except orks of course. Orks are the only good guys.

[outer lance]

Dying in bed. Preferably someone eleses.

[echo vault]

Dumbest weapon to have braced to your wrist in 40k?

[brittle slate]

I’m not sure killing things and torturing people and enslaving populations is “good guys” but sure

[plush mason]

spoken like a true roman lol

[echo vault]

Wrist mounted*

[brittle slate]

They bri’ish

[echo vault]

The French are the British but with more war crimes and worse food

[outer lance]

Why would they even enslave someone? How much work can a human do vs an ork

hell humans would die without upkeep

[earnest snow]

C4 gives a lot of motivation for people to bring back Doretta. Its why I love driller

[echo vault]

The beast used humans as cattle

It was so bad it made iron warriors sick to their stomach and ally with imperial fists

[full bane]

Fun and laughter.

[outer lance]

ahahahahhahaha

[full bane]

Also food

[brittle slate]

Dude- they enslave humans all the time

[outer lance]

Oh! Huh didn't know that

[echo vault]

Orks enslaving humans is the main plot point of gorkamorka

[crisp heath]

Farsight is just Colonel Kurtz, the Deathwatch lied about sterilization, and the ethereals would never use highly decorated human auxiliaries who risked it all to join them as bait

[brittle slate]

And a side plot in armegeddon

[slate yarrow]

I mean you would have a better life as an ordinary citizen under them comparatively speaking but that does not free them from all the atrocities they commit in the name of the Greater good.

[plush mason]

that AOS. but 40k orks also enslave humans

[echo vault]

And side plot in the war of the beast

[earnest snow]

Considering the Orks are very nomadic in their nature I found it weird they decided to settle down and become ranchers.

[full bane]

The Orks use slave labour (grots, humies, everything else) so they can go out and have fun bashing things without having to worry about the boring stuff.

[earnest snow]

Yes, they can become that if they start evolving, but idt they were that far along in The Beast series

[plush mason]

i mean. orks form empires

[earnest snow]

Still bit spooky to think about if Orks ever get that way again. What the Orks could be: Ranchers, Farmers, General Store owners, etc etc

[brittle slate]

Like what- the koloth gorge massacre?

[echo vault]

Which space marine legion is most pro slavery night lords or iron warriors

[crisp heath]

Cashiers and squig burger flippers...

[plush mason]

iron warriors

[full bane]

Orks in the Beast weren't really nomadic. It was a pretty chunky empire with webway access, supply lines, and the like. Farming humans was part of their food sources and stuff.

[brittle slate]

Ultramarines

[plush mason]

lol

[earnest snow]

In their current state they can form empires, however, they're more interested in going to the next fight or whatever else they set their mind to. They're moving all over the place. Unless they somehow develop a squig or an Ork that just enjoys taking the long time to raise Humans as cattle then Idk how it would work

[full bane]

Also attack moons

And diplomats.

[echo vault]

Yeah that's what I think because night lords just kill more than anything, the chaos aligned factions idk

[brittle slate]

I didn’t know about the webway

[echo vault]

I wanna see warp entities being bound to machines like they're warp servitors

Daemonette servitors

[plush mason]

demon engines are a thing

[crisp heath]

orks stay in places for a while if there's fighting to be had, that's why aside from their method of reproduction some worlds have infestations forever

[echo vault]

Yeah but more servitor than daemon engine

[full bane]

It was in the early bits I think. Can't recall but the Beast forces were moving very efficiently and vanishing without a trace.

Might have just been efficient tellyportas.

[echo vault]

Orkimedes made teleporters

[earnest snow]

I don't mind Orks developing to this state. I just have hard time seeing it happening when they're so bent on doing slapping humans instead of putting on the good ol' ranchin' hat.

[earnest snow]

This is valid. But I'm talking about them settling down and becoming honest to Gork n Mork ranchers

[brittle slate]

There are a few ork empires

[plush mason]

thats why they have the slaves do all that

[brittle slate]

And ork mercenary armies

[crisp heath]

Don't they do that for the purpose of fighting though, breeding bigger badder squigs and squiggoths to krump their enemies

[plush mason]

ye

there is a whole tribe dedicated to that in fact

[crisp heath]

They already have doctors and mechanics and weaponsmiths which are all indirectly responsible for a war effort rather than straight krumpin

[earnest snow]

Then I want a Rancher drawn in official 40k art.

GW better do it

[simple sparrow]

What’s GW sorry I’m dumb

[unique berry]

Games Workshop

[plush mason]

^

[earnest snow]

so with all of this said Why is the idea of human cattle so taken negatively by a lot of fans that have read The Beast series?

[plush mason]

the company that made and owns the warhammer IP

[earnest snow]

At least the forums I read have taken badly to it

[plush mason]

likely because they dont like that the orks need to eat and what not to fight

[earnest snow]

Imagine not liking the refined cuisine of Orkin Ramsey

[crisp heath]

I could see a use for human slaves but human cattle doesn't seem that great when orkish equivalents would be hardier and easier to maintain, but maybe its just for shits and giggles or psychological warfare

[plush mason]

eh, most umis is dumber than grots so its expected of um

[earnest snow]

Love me grot burgaz. Love me Fingie Fries. Love me Squig milk. All part of a 'ealthy breakfast

[proud mango]

stupid question.... but when will the forces of chaos run out of chaos marines? like havent they launched several crusades in which they've lost thousands of chaos marines?

I'm not uptodate with their recruitment methods

[plush mason]

they make more when ever they can

however they can

[proud mango]

ah so they like abduct normal marines and corrupt them?

[plush mason]

sometimes

[earnest snow]

Author reasons: When the plot demands.

In lore reasons: Whenever someone stops them from stealing geneseed and corrupting everything

[nocturne crest]

Are orgyns born naturally or cloned?

[plush mason]

yup

[storm jungle]

Naturally born

[honest trellis]

CSM recruit and get lots of fresh traitors

Thousands of Marines is a drop in the bucket

[proud mango]

oh i see, so they can literally use gene-seeds to make more! wasnt aware

[honest trellis]

The original legions were hundreds of thousands and the surviving warbands keep recruiting

[nocturne crest]

Someone told me that the WE basically implant nails into regular space marines and that is how they recruit?

[storm jungle]

Chaos Marine recruitment is basically same as the Loyalists but replace it with more gore/mutations/heavy-surgery

[proud mango]

i didnt know heresy and fallen marines was still such a massive issue

[crisp heath]

for some reason I thought some chaos marines could respawn due to warp fuckery

[honest trellis]

rare but does happen

[earnest snow]

There are also other methods. Like Daemonculaba, but that has been beaten beyond dead horse levels with the 40k community referencing it constantly

[proud mango]

oh cool (well, not for the recruit 😛 )

[honest trellis]

40K writing has a serious Imperial POV bias

when in the more background lore, yeah no things are fucked

the traitor Legions explicitly have more followers than Horus ever did

[dusk patrol]

Also CSM tend to have more of a “trial by fire” aspirant process

“Aspirant”

[honest trellis]

Abaddon is not a meme in the fluff

Like, trying to 1v1 him is basically just suicide with extra steps and he isn't warmaster because of his charming smile

[storm jungle]

||When do we tell people that not every Black Crusade was aimed at Cadia and accomplished all their objectives.||

[earnest snow]

Oh no you're gonna summon the hordes of Failbaddon the Armless memes

[proud mango]

oh wow, i thought it was the other way around! i assumed abaddon was running around with the dregs of the heresy forces

[honest trellis]

It's...a little of both tbf

[plush mason]

Failbaddon the Armless

[earnest snow]

I KNWE IT

[honest trellis]

a lot of those followers are post-heresy recruits or fresh turncoats

[dusk patrol]

That’s what happens when most of the fanbase gets their lore from memes

[earnest snow]

I'm not correcting that

[nocturne crest]

Who is the weakest named chaos space marine who keeps reappearing?

[earnest snow]

That misspelling conveys my rage

[honest trellis]

Honestly a lot of picks for punching bags

[earnest snow]

Its very sad :/

[honest trellis]

uh...Mkar the Reborn was a bit of a joke

for a daemon prince

[earnest snow]

Cadia fans would like to talk to you

[brittle slate]

I really get upset at the "failbeddon" meme logic

[plush mason]

talk? you mean screech in rage

[brittle slate]

abaddon's more of a strategist then most of the primarchs

[earnest snow]

I guess its assumed that Cadia being Cadia, people just assume that all crusades were trying to break the planet lmao

[proud mango]

okay so this has blown my current perception of the state of things 😄 seems like space marines will continued to be created just to counter the number of turncoats lol

[brittle slate]

including his dad

[dusk patrol]

“Haha Rowboat Girlyman, Matt Ward! These jokes are hilarious!”

[honest trellis]

Lemme put it this way

[earnest snow]

yuh

[honest trellis]

a lot of individual traitor warbands may be poor, broken, or dying...

But there are a LOT of traitors

And some are flat out legion strength

some are literally Legions

[brittle slate]

there's entire chaos oriented cultures

[proud mango]

oh damn!

[dusk patrol]

It’s just variable

[brittle slate]

with their own version of the inquisition, adeptus etc

[dusk patrol]

Death Guard, Word Bearers are still about as strong as they ever were if not bigger now

[brittle slate]

like.. they have logistics and rules and laws and government

[dusk patrol]

Iron Warriors it’s hard to say but they’re similar

[honest trellis]

Well

They have their own variations of governance

usually a lot more brutal than even the Imperium

[brittle slate]

Iron Warriors absolutely

[dusk patrol]

Emperor’s Children aren’t as big but they’re super dangerous pound for pound

[honest trellis]

Some canon sources say the black legion is ten times the size of the word bearers

[dusk patrol]

Tsons are a similar case

[honest trellis]

they're definitely one of the largest and strongest Legions

and even Astartes forces in general

[proud mango]

okay so wait - abaddon doesn't control all the chaos marines?

[brittle slate]

Emperor's Children are, by the GW staff, regarded as the best of the original legions pound for pound

[honest trellis]

By definition, he can't

[dusk patrol]

Red Corsairs are the second biggest Chaos force

[honest trellis]

but it's very..."when he talks, people listen"

[barren tapir]

"Place like this endure and cadia is gone, where is the justice in this?"
"Stop whining"

[brittle slate]

best individual fighters for sure

[storm jungle]

Its basically how a president doesn't control every people in their country

[honest trellis]

Ehhhhh

[proud mango]

Oh i see

[honest trellis]

I'd say more...consistent quality

[dusk patrol]

It’s more Noise Marines are OP

[brittle slate]

im summarizing BL writer's opinions

[honest trellis]

Black Legion may not have the best individuals but it has a lot of high quality chosen

[brittle slate]

and an emphasis on 30k

[proud mango]

so like each legion is essentially its own "state" then?

[honest trellis]

Yeah but that depends a lot on the writer

Oh, EC?

Yeah that also depends a lot

[plush mason]

how do the traitor primarchs treat/view Abaddon anyway?

[barren tapir]

Indeed, it is a never ending cycle, you need SM to fight turncoat SM (with the exception you don't really) and some of those SM will become turncoat, so you will make more SM and the cycle continue ad infinitum

[honest trellis]

Also SM loyalty is a crapshoot

[dusk patrol]

It’s just a huge mix across the board

[honest trellis]

Each "legion" has broken apart to a greater or lesser degree

[dusk patrol]

CSMs fight eachother as much as they fight loyalists, sometimes more

[honest trellis]

even the most unified Legions have warbands that fucked off to do their own thing

[proud mango]

I can imagine the GE looking down on all this like

[honest trellis]

It's herding cats

[proud mango]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-shit-whats-happening-whats-going-on-mother-of-god-dear-god-gif-16251359

[brittle slate]

LVO 2020: almost every BL writer was at a round table discussion and the question got asked and it was EC by a longshot in terms of their efficacy

[dusk patrol]

Word Bearers and Death Guard are the most United but they’re still in parts

[honest trellis]

Basically yeah Astartes were a huge mistake

[dusk patrol]

Still elements which are divided

[honest trellis]

exact quotes?

also the EC vary so much by era that it's a bit hard to nail them down

[brittle slate]

What do you mean, like did i whip out my phone and record it?

[queen fern]

so they can just 'grow' humans?

[honest trellis]

I meant the phrasing they used

are we talking "almost dead, flesh-blight era where they're basically plus ones"

or "late crusade spiralling into slannesh worship nutters"

because they're practically 2 different legions

[earnest snow]

Reading up on the Black Crusades, and I have to say Abaddon has been doing well for himself.

[celest dome]

Don't the Death Guard have a pretty major schism with Mortarion's follower and those that follow Typhus ?

[proud mango]

so I guess, what the Chaos forces really need is another Horus (someone both charismatic and military genius), to unite them and the Imperium is fucked

[dusk patrol]

EC now are a lot more dangerous than EC during the GC

[honest trellis]

That's Abaddon yeah

[earnest snow]

I haven't been reading up on 40k lore due to New Vegas lately so rip me

[dusk patrol]

It’s not a huge one

[brittle slate]

"Who's the best?"

"EC." Nick Kyme
"EC by a long shot." Adam Troke
"Why do you think they got to be called the Emperor's children" Graham Mcneill

[earnest snow]

But yee. Man really is worthy of his top knot

[dusk patrol]

They’re the most united legion still

[plush mason]

iirc there was a line in one of the books where malcador said their was only enough marines to post 3 on each world in the imperium, and that was at a point where the SM where their most numerous. or that may have been a fan fic

[dusk patrol]

But yeah they have elements

[honest trellis]

EC now are a shattered legion

[dusk patrol]

Those who did leave mostly left with Typhus

But most of the OG DG are loyal to Mortarion

Newer Plague Marines vary a lot though

[earnest snow]

Good ol' Mothtarion

[dusk patrol]

They tend to be drawn to the likes of Typhus

[honest trellis]

Kyme and McNeil opinions

rotflmao

more seriously "best" is extremely vague and that sounds like a meme answer

[plush mason]

yeah

[dusk patrol]

Tbh Kyme is a great editor

But I will never care what he says about lore

[honest trellis]

Like the EC may be high end at individual excellence in a field of obsession

[dusk patrol]

Until he stops writing Sallies

And let’s literally anyone else take over

[earnest snow]

The best are clearly the funny clown elves that protect a particular craftworld with tons of knowledge on it

[honest trellis]

but this is the same organization that missed that their Primarch was going nuts from his sword and which signed up en masse for Fabius's funny essential oils

[proud mango]

best at what? i've only started reading the Horus Heresy books, on book 2, and the lunar wolves are made out to be the best in that

[dusk patrol]

I don’t think there’s really a best anyways

They excel in different areas

And they have outliers in all legions

[honest trellis]

TBH "best" is such a vague qualifier that you can basically argue for anyone

except word bearers

because they were kinda useless until they drank the kool aid

[proud mango]

lol

[honest trellis]

well except sheer numbers

[barren tapir]

They still are useless, they have demons to do all their things

[honest trellis]

I mean

[barren tapir]

And they still are slaves of such demons

[honest trellis]

post Heresy you can argue the WB are the ones with the most insight into the reality of the setting

[earnest snow]

Why do it yourself when you can stick a demon in a tank

[proud mango]

i have read the one with the word bears vs ultramarines, that was a good book, but they seemed to have an edge because of outright betrayal more than anything

[honest trellis]

that's just loyalist bias

Like it's obviously written with loyalist bias but from the lore the WB flat out won that tradeoff

[earnest snow]

I bet the WB would put a demon in a forklift to bypass the need for a certification and Chaos OSHA regulations

[vital kernel]

The Lunar Wolves were the most competent at being an all-round capable Legion while not being a net burden on Imperial Resources and Crusade business like for example the World Eaters.

[honest trellis]

they sent in the disposable idiots and basically killed off a good chunk of the UM

[proud mango]

yeah they killed a planet

[vital kernel]

I would argue the 13th was a close second behind the Lunar Wolves simply due to how effectively run it was.

[dusk patrol]

I mean the fact that they had all that pre planning and still got spanked so often kinda tells you what you need to know

[proud mango]

know no fear, that was it

[barren tapir]

Poor Calth

[plush mason]

the imperial heralds and the imperium as a whole would be better of if they had just offed Lorgar and purged his world like the legion was made for

[dusk patrol]

They were literally handed Calth and still managed to fumble the most important part

[earnest snow]

Rest in Peace Calth I hardly knew ye

[honest trellis]

Calth was a legit military target

I'm not even meming, it literally was

Like the destruction of Calth was basically the least objectionable word bearers act in the war, ironically

[barren tapir]

Big E purged all religions from words and didn't purged it from the only one that should have... Also kill lorgar the moment you see him worshipping you, big E should have knew that that religious BS would have degenerated into something really bad

[vital kernel]

Calth was meant to be the grave of the Ultramarines but it turned into a tarpit for the Word Bearers.

[honest trellis]

Nah like

[plush mason]

Big E was big dumb a lot of times lol

[honest trellis]

Calth was Lorgar sending the cannon fodder and unreliables

the real point was the Ruinstorm

which happened

[dusk patrol]

They still failed at a lot of key points for Calth with literally every aspect of it on their side

[vital kernel]

if about 50% of your Legion is cannon fodder and unreliables, you got a pretty shitty legion m8

[honest trellis]

Kor Phaeron and Erebus fucked it up but Lorgar got what he was after

[dusk patrol]

If they had killed Guilliman, the Heresy would have been over

[earnest snow]

Hard to do when you're in the presence of a Primarch's plot armor beauty, grace, strength, whatever makes people piss themselves standing.

[barren tapir]

Fuck erebus

[honest trellis]

Well yeah the WB were never the best on that front

[proud mango]

it seems like tho, a lot of these chaos marines were pushed into chaos marines due to heavy handedness and a lack of forsight from the imperial leaders, especially the GE who probably should have known better... like for a grimdark setting and a world in which planets are erradicated for rejecting the emperor or for verbals slights they didnt implement the old Machiavelli addage: "In general you must either pamper people or destroy them; harm them just a little and they’ll hit back; harm them seriously and they won’t be able to."

[vital kernel]

also, sacrificing 50% of your legion to take out less than 20% of the UM's effectife fighting force is pretty sad

[lilac wave]

I dunno, he was out for blood and revenge. If he held back his best that's probably why he didn't make it farther into ultramar.

[barren tapir]

They were preachers, not soldiers, lorgar too admit he was more a preacher than a soldier

[dusk patrol]

It’s a mixed bag

Some were like that

[barren tapir]

He say scholar, but he clearly wasn't

[dusk patrol]

Some chose it

Some were assholes

[vital kernel]

Rowboat had the Word Bearers contained on Calth in like a week before going off to do more important shit

[dusk patrol]

It’s always a mix

[honest trellis]

100000 UM yeeted at calth

[dusk patrol]

Half the legion got killed

It was a massive deal

[proud mango]

ah fair, I've only really experienced lorgar and horus

[dusk patrol]

But it was still a failure in how much surprise they had

[honest trellis]

Like given the incompetence of his subordinates

[dusk patrol]

I mean at the end of the day Lorgar made his own choices

[brittle slate]

i do wish that guilliman was more nefarious

[earnest snow]

At least the WB are having fun sticking demons in toasters and sending them off to give burnt toast to Imperial Commanders. I do love the WBs for their demon stuff lmao

[honest trellis]

Lorgar did the best he could given he flat out got confirmation going himself would end the heresy

[plush mason]

you know it is still funny to me that even with how divided the 40k fandom is on a lot of stuff. they are almost all in agreement that the word bearers suck lamo

[brittle slate]

like, imperium secundus is awesome

just lean into it more

[honest trellis]

he is pretty awful, just writer bias

Like this is the guy who launches a palace coup post-heresy

and drives his own brother to suicide

[dusk patrol]

What?

[brittle slate]

it would have been awesome if the Minotaurs had just kicked everyone's shit in

[honest trellis]

and who completely unironically is parroting horus's nonsense about putting astartes in charge in M41

[brittle slate]

god. but i love the minotaurs

[proud mango]

oh yeah i mean i get why he got the slap down, but in having his world obliterated you would have thought they'd have kept a close eye on him in

[dusk patrol]

It was definitely heavy handed

[honest trellis]

Hell the survivors of the Siege hate Guilliman for playing politics (in Black books lore)

[brittle slate]

even custodes are creeped out by minotaurs

[dusk patrol]

But Lorgar was also an idiot

[brittle slate]

exactly

[lilac wave]

That seems like a stretch. Konrad caused his own fucking problems.

[earnest snow]

Lorgar really did like speaking

[vital kernel]

To be fair, he has seen what 10k years of letting base humans govern the Imperium leads to now

[brittle slate]

and he's also convinced 40k fans to get on board with pragmatic imperium

[dusk patrol]

Are we blaming Curze on Guilliman?

[honest trellis]

1. Nice excuse for his own fuck up with the "reforms"

[dusk patrol]

What?

[earnest snow]

I think so

[brittle slate]

pragmatism doesn't belong to the imperium

exhibit A? walking churches.

[dusk patrol]

Or Dorn? Either way neither make any sense

[earnest snow]

I mean at this point sure I guess. I know its wrong, but its really wild

[vital kernel]

What was the alternative? The Imperium was close to collapse after the heresy.

[honest trellis]

The alternative was to...not launch an armed coup

[dusk patrol]

Curze was 100% always his own self fucking things up for himself

[proud mango]

but isnt half of all the shit at the moment due to guilliman's reforms?

[honest trellis]

and to do his job as a disposable general

[dusk patrol]

That they themselves set up?

[honest trellis]

Like let's be very clear, Guilliman seizes power post-Siege, after fucking around for literally years and letting the galaxy burn

[vital kernel]

After the Heresy the remaining loyalist Primarchs were certainly not disposable. I sense a lot of personal bias and vitriol speaking.

[honest trellis]

The Primarchs were a mistake

[dusk patrol]

No one else wanted to lead

Dorn didn’t care

Corax left

[earnest snow]

Absolutely. Curze was fucked from the get go. And its tragic af. It just sucks that Dorn is a brick, and all Curze was used for was doing messed up stuff with a legion he hated

[honest trellis]

and flat out needed to go for there to be any semblance of a human run future

[proud mango]

almost starts a civil war

[plush mason]

i mean. what else can you expect from a deranged emo batman wana be?

[dusk patrol]

Russ went to Fenris

[honest trellis]

Dorn didn't care

Bruh

[dusk patrol]

The Khan left

[honest trellis]

the Navy literally shot at him over it

[dusk patrol]

Dorn had no interest in leading

[vital kernel]

The question was only ever between Dorn and Guilliman, and Rowboat was the only one who actually had an idea how to salvage the giant steaming pile of shit the Post Crusade Imperium was

[honest trellis]

after Guilliman launched a palace coup

Oh Robute had ideas alright, that oddly enough involved him being in charge

Like

[earnest snow]

I still hate the fact Khan went off to speed race with the Dark Eldar. I know its more complicated than that and its a complete misrepresentation, but I still hate the actual reasons. Literally going into the webway and getting lost.

[honest trellis]

Fulgrim did the Imperium a favor by shanking him

[earnest snow]

I swear GW

Makes me cry at night

[vital kernel]

Yes.

[honest trellis]

Yeahhhhhhhhh Robute is basically Horus With Extra Steps and dodgier motivations

[dusk patrol]

I can’t even tell what you’re referencing half the time because you misrepresent or misinterpret stuff so hard sometimes to fit your narrow agenda

[proud mango]

but Guillimans plan's have led to the (for lack of a better word) chaos the imperium faces right? he's fractured the legions to the point they're running rampant with little to no oversight

[honest trellis]

Guilliman basically broke all the Legions except for his own

as part of his power grubbing

[vital kernel]

Dodgier motivations? I would say his motivations are pretty clear, he's the Emperors unstoppable urge to make an Empire given flesh.

[honest trellis]

I mean...Yes that's kinda the problem

Pathological obsession with empire building

[dusk patrol]

He definitely broke up his own legion too

Like

What?

[honest trellis]

nah the UM would get dinged by any good faith interpretation of Codex restrictions

they're hypocrites

[vital kernel]

Nothing wrong with that. And every single Legion kept some sort of "shit hits the fan" order going where they all unite to fight an exestential threat.

[proud mango]

that is what it seems to be about, break the strength of the other so that no one opposes me. he comes across as a Sulla - I'll be the tyrant so that no tyrant shall follow me, but ultimately leads to the end of the empire

[honest trellis]

They literally keep entire chapters as cannon fodder for themselves