40k-lore-chat

[brittle slate]

Agreed. But also Slannesh matches perfectly with lower classes wanting some kind of happiness

[storm jungle]

I mean

has he seen The Boys?

which is also an Amazon show?

and its violent as fuck?

[brittle slate]

McNeill does it really well

[storm jungle]

[brittle slate]

GW has already done this

[signal bramble]

Depicting it on a streaming platform is a different beast.

[brittle slate]

But then GW isn’t going to be in the drivers seat

Thank god

[storm jungle]

again, the Boys exists

which has 40k tier gore

[plush mason]

ye

[signal bramble]

I’m not referring to the violence.

[storm jungle]

if the heads agree go to super Rated R they will go Rated R

[brittle slate]

The fact is is that you have a universe that’s actually kind of boring in terms of an actual narrative that regular people want to connect with

[celest dome]

The Boys comics are even worse

[brittle slate]

It’s awesome for RPGs and tabletop and video games

[storm jungle]

Yeah Garth Ennis is a misogynistic gore-freak for starters lol

[celest dome]

Can't read them to be honest

[storm jungle]

same

Show is much better

[brittle slate]

But an actual narrative to engage with and (there’s a reason no one outside of hardcore 40k fans signed up for +)

[plush mason]

they always are as comics have more freedom than video media

[storm jungle]

Ennis also does that shit for the sake of being edgy

the nagain he is a Punisher fanboy

[signal bramble]

Im talking about how the imperium is rampantly religious and genuinely wants to exterminate just about anything that isn’t them. Depictions of violence is one thing, people get touchy about depictions of racism and genocide.

[storm jungle]

Eh thats easy to hide

how do you think GW has done it

the Imperium is basically roman nazi germany

[brittle slate]

Yup

[storm jungle]

yet tell this anywhere else and people will deny it

[brittle slate]

Lol

[storm jungle]

NOOO ITS A FEUDAL OLIGARCHY

[brittle slate]

THE EAGLE ONLY HAS ONE HEAD

[full bane]

Tbh I blame that on the way Warhammer+ was framed. It's effectively a mobile white dwarf/ Miniwargaming style tutorial and batrep content with some animation on the side.

[storm jungle]

LMAO

[brittle slate]

ALIENS DONT COUNT AS PEOPLE

[full bane]

But they pushed the hilariously lackluster animation first.

[sinful crater]

it's a feudal theocracy autoritarian militarist, no?

[storm jungle]

Yeah but is also incredibly fucking fascist

it has literal death camps

slavery

genetic purity messages

[signal bramble]

More like a tributary empire lead by a theocratic oligarchy if you want to be really specific. At least until Guilliman showed up.

[storm jungle]

killing mutants

etc

[brittle slate]

I worked there for 4 years. It’s so much worse then you think.

[storm jungle]

Theres a reason the aquila exists as its main symbol

[celest dome]

The erasure of self

[storm jungle]

serving the state than yourself etc

[sinful crater]

honestly hard to say that them moral code is bad, for them universe is... the best they can get, for our world it's horrible.

[storm jungle]

No lmao

GW literally said the Imperium is terrible

[celest dome]

Servitors is all you need to know to see how bad the Imperium is

[full bane]

Having seen the horrific mismatch of communication between Forge World and the main studio (let alone their marketing efforts)... Not surprised.

[storm jungle]

and should not be sympathized with

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/

The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.

[brittle slate]

I had a friend take a look at a rulebook once and he just said: you know this is mein kampf. And then he just googled different phrases

[full bane]

Which is something that really shouldn't need to be said given the state of the Imperium, but here we are.

[celest dome]

Like all the good options for Humanity were killed by the Imperium

[plush mason]

like GW has literally made pains to make the imperium the most horrible system it can so people WONT sympathize with it. and yet people still do

[signal bramble]

Warhammer is for everyone unless you’re poor. Then GW don’t like you.

[storm jungle]

GW had to make this statement both after a pro-nazi guy entered a tournament in italy and also during the whole BLM debacle.

[storm jungle]

AAA-

[brittle slate]

Again the spotlight is going to be rough

[celest dome]

Wasn't it Spain ?

[signal bramble]

Correct.

[storm jungle]

Ah yeah my bad

because Spain has a weird perspective regarding fascism

mostly history related

[sinful crater]

i don't sympathized with them, they are trash, but let's face it, they are besieged from all side by alien race that want to devour them (nids), robot that want to exterminate them (necron), green alien that simply destroy and kill all because it's fun (ork) and that only a few example... given them situation... when billion of life is lost per day, if you respect human right i'm not sure you will survive long haha

[brittle slate]

But that’s why it’s good GW isn’t in the drivers seat

[celest dome]

Franco and all that

[full bane]

Even in the Rogue Trader era the Imperium was a mix of Dune's corrupt top-down empire and 2000 A.D.'s dystopian mega cities.

[brittle slate]

Yeah. That’s not a great narrative.

[signal bramble]

In Spain their laws are different as, if they kicked him out he could argue discrimination under their laws.

[storm jungle]

The Imperium ever since its inception has been genociding innocent human civilisations and alien ones in equal measure, they brought all their problems on themselves at the end of the day.

[brittle slate]

Their best bet is going to be keep it small

[plush mason]

hell their "fascist" government was literally only in name afaik. it had little of what made fascism fascism

[signal bramble]

(Not saying I agree mind you, but that’s just how their law is. )

[brittle slate]

They were fascists up into the 80’s after all

[celest dome]

Sure, but there were friendly Xenos, and groups that were much more equipped to deny Chaos and stuff

[brittle slate]

Heck. Tau.

[sinful crater]

totally, but let's all recognize that them universe is as trashy than them.... so far find me one race that was not trash?

[brittle slate]

I’ve been going through old lore and they’re straight up friendly.

[signal bramble]

What throws off the fascist interpretation of the imperium is that it’s not that centralized. So long as you pay your taxes and follow a few rules you’re allowed to run your planet however you want.

[brittle slate]

But imp players couldn’t handle it so they just made them prophets from halo

[sinful crater]

not everything is pink with tau, farshight have put the finger on some massive trouble link to the tau.

[brittle slate]

And they run it badly 99% of the time

With sweeping aristocracies and greedy governors

[plush mason]

none of them are thats the point. that doesnt make the imperium justified in any tho, humans have no more (and one can argue less) right to the galaxy than any of the other races in it

[brittle slate]

It’s the Roman Empire with the worst part of the dark ages

[celest dome]

Even 1st edition Tau weren't that nice

[brittle slate]

3rd. And yeah they were

[sinful crater]

never said they had more justification, just saying the setup is trashy ^^

[storm jungle]

Even when they try to run a planet well your hand will eventually be forced by the Adeptas to abuse your own populace and increase productivity among other things to produce the shit the Imperium wants

[plush mason]

ye

yup

[brittle slate]

Like a small mining world called taros still has ogryns enslaved

[storm jungle]

yeeee

[brittle slate]

They’re treated so bad that when the tau show up they revolt and join the blues

[storm jungle]

Lmfao

yeah like theres a reason GSC and chaos cults prosper

the populace suffers daily and need an escape

[brittle slate]

THIS

[storm jungle]

the escape is sadly just as worse, but they got no options

[brittle slate]

Right

[sinful crater]

the trouble of the imperium can be resume to one point.... the religious zealot

[brittle slate]

I don’t see how you make the loud minority of 40k fans with a show

[plush mason]

and it gets real bad when you realize that part of that reason is the imperium's efforts to stop them from happening lol

[brittle slate]

I think you have to jump the shark and hope you can convince more normal people like your stuff

[full bane]

Plenty, the Ardanians, Interex, and a whole bunch more used to exist.

[brittle slate]

… but then… rings of power

[celest dome]

LotR >< 40k

[sinful crater]

i talk of the actual universe of 40000 not in the past of 40000

[brittle slate]

Keep in mind it’s not Amazon doing it

Technically it’s vertigo

[full bane]

The fledgling Imperium slew basically every xenos race that might have ended up with friendly relations during the Great Crusade.

[celest dome]

The problem that can be caused by Ring of Power would be so minor for 40k that most wouldn't care of the differences (See Inquisitor Martyr)

[storm jungle]

Rings of Power is great

||If you want to mute it and take screenshots of amazing visuals/scenes ||

[brittle slate]

Fair

[storm jungle]

This is a joke it sucks

but the budget was at least KINDA going somewhere

ish

[plush mason]

this. unlike LOTR fans 40k fans are use to such changes if not accepting of them

[brittle slate]

700m+

[brittle slate]

Good point

[sinful crater]

what happend with martyr?

[celest dome]

A lot of weird lore

[plush mason]

the story is so non canon its laughable

[full bane]

The point is that the Imperium destroyed all possibility of co-existence early on. Even the few Xenos races they brought into compliance or vassalised were exterminated after.
Xenos races which had ways to deal with Chaos corruption outside of purging, races which in some cases extended an arm of friendship.

[celest dome]

But it happen in that weird sector so it's mostly fine or something

[full bane]

The Imperium is in the position it is due to its own policies and actions.

[plush mason]

it is it's own worst enemy and always has been

[celest dome]

Any and all problem for Mankind is due to Mankind and mostly the Emperor

[brittle slate]

You still have Tau. Yes, the 3rd and 4th spheres are getting… grimdarked, but you have an entire hive that joined without really a shot being fired

[full bane]

It's not a heroic faction. There are heroes who live within it, but they're little candles of hope in the vast abyssal pit of despair that is the crumbling Imperium.

[brittle slate]

The 40k would cannibalize itself, but a tau them would be a really accessible way for people to connect with 40k

There’s more intrigue and politics, potential romance or drama, and then some pretty intense grimdark

[sinful crater]

they will probably do a show about the space smurf fighting nids

[brittle slate]

But calville is like most basic fans and just cares about space marines… or space marines in gold

[brittle slate]

Yeah

[full bane]

True, though I personally count the Tau as one of those races that has their whole manifest destiny thing which means mutual peace isn't quite possible with them.
They'll seek to expand and vassalise, because they believe that the Greater Good is superior to whatever creed those on the other side of their borders follow.
(That's my reading of the Tau anyway, as with everything else 40k, it depends and is open to some level of interpretation)

[plush mason]

Cavil as a primaris ultramarine would be funny

[brittle slate]

But that’s boring after a while

[full bane]

At least long term.

[sinful crater]

the advantage of space smurf it's possible to portray them like military expert a big rough, but facing alien race that kill and eat human... easier to make an entry with this.

[brittle slate]

There’s plenty of races that have coexistence with the tau, including humans.

They also don’t vassalize. Races are clients or member species

[celest dome]

Just because he isn't a Tau fan doesn't make him "basic" and he has said before that he has armies for mostly each factions

[brittle slate]

Yeah, I’ve been collecting tau lore since before the models were released. I do really wish a straightforward discussion about them could happen but it’s almost impossible in mixed company

[brittle slate]

He’s talked about 40k before and his opinions of the minor factions is a youtuber’s gloss over

[full bane]

Yeah but the Auxiliaries are for the most part considered under the T'au. Client or not, the Empire is commanded by the Ethereals and those under it don't really have a say.

[brittle slate]

His passion is just space marines and custodes. It’s fine. But that’s where his passion is

[brittle slate]

Not really. You have aux leaders and their societies aren’t run by tau

[fallen marsh]

And yet Tau exterminated whole human worlds that dared to question Etherals and revolt.

[sinful crater]

Tau have trouble, like i have said, if someone like Farsight did rebel it means something

[brittle slate]

Where, Chalnath?

[brittle slate]

But Farsight didn’t rebel in the human sense. He rebelled in the sense that he literally “went his own way” but that’s only after he had a revelation about what the 40k galaxy was about

His OG storyline is incredible

His rebellion is a philosophy of “the greater good doesn’t work for these psychopaths”

[sinful crater]

well yes, rebel is maybe a bit strong as terms but you get what i means

[brittle slate]

Vs the rest of Tau society which sent diplomats to the necrons and tyranids

[plush mason]

the Tau are a bit like the qunari in a way honestly. only their version of the qun aka the greater good is so loosely defined that different etherials tend to interpret it different. at least that is my understanding

[sinful crater]

and the greater good is something that can lead to soo extrem stuff.... it's a slipping board

[brittle slate]

Yeah, you get assholes like aun’va and then you get aun’shi

[sinful crater]

quid of the votann in all of this

[brittle slate]

For sure- but it’s not in the way most people think or what the author Kelly knows how to handle

Fehvari can though- he’s brilliant

The most grimdark thing, and honestly an excellent narrative a show could latch onto, is that you don’t get to choose what you do in society

[celest dome]

Still is part of the lore, unless it has been retconned

[brittle slate]

It’s like those brit exams that determine if you get to go to college or trade school

[celest dome]

Like even the sh#t lore is still there

[full bane]

The Empire as a whole is though, and that's kind of the thing. There are a couple of Heresy era Xenos races I could have seen opening arms of friendship and incorporating into a single galactic civilisation.
But at least in 40k, the Tau dream of their unified empire, they've got a vision just like Humanity and the Aeldar before them did and I don't think they'd settle for being a minor power if they have a choice (which in 40k proper they do not).

Though as always that's my read on them as a faction rather than anything solid about their lore.

[brittle slate]

Tau lore is different in that Kelly does such a terrible job learning basic things (like reading the codex) that it literally can’t mesh with the rest of Tau lore

Like- imagine an imperial book that said the Throne was on Mars

[full bane]

Phil Kelly really likes Tau, which is a shame.

[brittle slate]

It is

He’s a great fantasy writer

[brittle slate]

But he didn’t know Shadowsun has 2 sisters

Or was from T’au (even though that’s in her keywords)

And he really wanted to write in 30k since he made Farsight horus. And forgot Tau can’t be possessed

Annnnyway. I think if a show was smart they would do the Scouring.

It would bridge the gap between heresy and 40k

[full bane]

Fire and Ice Farsight > Crisis of Faith Farsight

[brittle slate]

Gives lots of opportunities for drama and smaller conflicts

[full bane]

"I walk this path not to learn how to win the war, but to learn how I will live when I win"

[odd palm]

Mfw the new series will be SM centric

[brittle slate]

As a rule, an epic should always happen after a “war in heaven” level of war

[odd palm]

[signal bramble]

How about blade of damocles farsight that advocated culling humanity?

Yes really.

[brittle slate]

You… are my favorite today. That’s such a great novella

[brittle slate]

I mean, he does do that. But that’s why he’s actually a bad guy

I don’t know why people think farsight is the good guy

He also committed exterminatus several times (a big tau no no) and his followers are just as bad

Like the koloth gorge massacre

[full bane]

From the Tau perspective and seeing how much Chaos pervades humanity... It's kind of understandable.
What else is your reaction when faced with a species that is host to a memetic cognitohazard threat that invites invasion from extradimensional horrors.

[brittle slate]

Totally- but then the tau have engaged and fought with chaos for thousands of years before Farsight lost his ethereals on Arthas moloch

Originally Farsight didn’t have aliens in his forces

[signal bramble]

Eh once you advocate genocide of a species that has redeeming qualities you lose your moral high ground to me.

Not every species though, if the deldar or nids or necrons were wiped out I don’t think anyone would shed a tear.

[full bane]

Yeah, though the knowledge of it isn't spread particularly wide IIRC.
And the inclusion of gue'la and other psychically active auxiliaries opens avenues to that creeping, insidious corruption.

[signal bramble]

When everyone wants to conquer/exterminate each other that’s just the way it is.

The imperium doesn’t need to lie about how dangerous aliens are when they have enemies like those three.

[full bane]

Implying the Tau had a moral high ground in the first place.

They're the least fucked up of the major 40k factions, but they're still a 40k faction.

[signal bramble]

Hey if I ever had to get captured alive by any faction in 40k I’d take my chances with the Tau above all the others.

[brittle slate]

Their unifying creed is for everyone to get along*

They chastise their own who try and go against that

Brightsword, Farsight, Sternshield

I don’t think the imperium even has a word for “war crimes”

[brittle slate]

Might end up with your own fancy battlesuit

[signal bramble]

They’re the least likely to kill and/or torture you.

Just keep your head down, do as you’re told, and blend in and your quality of life wouldn’t be that bad.

[plush mason]

which as bad as that is. its still better than what the imperium offers

[plush mason]

they do, its called normal

[brittle slate]

Lol

[plush mason]

which says a lot about the imperium

[rough venture]

id fall to nurgle tbh

[brittle slate]

But there are full on human societies that haven’t been in contact with the imperium for potentially thousands of years in the tau empire

[plush mason]

i would just eat a lasround asap

[signal bramble]

They even say the average guela in Tau society doesn’t have it that bad. They’re not brutally tortured or whipped, get decent food and working conditions, have automation to speed up their production.

[brittle slate]

There’s an untapped opportunity to show non-imperial humans

[plush mason]

ye

the tau are still bad, just not as bad as the rest

[signal bramble]

I don’t think the Tau have the moral high ground. But your quality of life under them is comparably not a living nightmare.

[plush mason]

ye

there is no such thing as morality in 40k

[brittle slate]

I guess it’s how you define morality

[signal bramble]

I view a society which stomps down on the individual to be inherently evil. But that’s just me.

[plush mason]

not just you mate

[rough venture]

i feel like your best fate is to not be born in the 40k universe. period.

[brittle slate]

I think the hill I die on is that the tau do bad whereas everyone else is embracing of how bad they are and justify it

[plush mason]

ye

[brittle slate]

Right- the tau don’t really do that

That’s kind of a meme or a Kelly thing

And even he is contradictory

Of his own work

[brittle slate]

I think it’s “survival”

Morality in 40k is what you do to survive

[plush mason]

that isnt morality

morality is a philosophical concept

[celest dome]

See, that's why I don't speak of Tau lore, they are like the High Elf fan of Fantasy

[plush mason]

it literally does not exist in a survival situation

philosophy itself does not exist in 40k

[brittle slate]

… well, we were having a great convo and then.

[brittle slate]

I guess that’s fair

But if morality is the distinction from right and wrong. “Right” is survival.

“Wrong” is extinction.

[celest dome]

Then the Imperium isn't wrong

[signal bramble]

Nothing wrong with the conversation so long as it doesn’t get personal.

[celest dome]

It's surviving

[plush mason]

life and death are not moral questions tho

and never have been

[brittle slate]

Wouldn’t the means of either be?

[plush mason]

nope

[brittle slate]

Let’s hope

[plush mason]

there is no right or wrong when you are fighting to stay alive

[full bane]

It's the means by which the Tau and the Imperium carry out their creeds that paint them as evil imo, though in the Tau Empire's case it's more of a light grey compared to the Imperium's Vantablack 2.0, now with additional stygian darkness.

[brittle slate]

I feel like Alpharius or the Illuminati would differ

Defeating “chaos” is more important than a species survival

[full bane]

Neither of them particularly care about morality or survival though, and they're individuals rather than empires and species.

Or well, as much individuals as you can get with them.

[plush mason]

we are all alpharius

[full bane]

Or are we?

[plush mason]

yes this is a lie

[celest dome]

I'm Omegon

[full bane]

Error 404: primarch not found

[signal bramble]

I am Alpharius. This is a lie.

I have a friend that loves the AL but was on the fence about getting the book. I played that very first line of the audiobook for him and within minutes he went and got it for himself.

[brittle slate]

I always think you need a straight man in order to highlight how awful everything is. I’ve never argued that tau don’t do bad things- but they’re ultimately a (literal) force trying to do good. They aren’t perfect, but they’re the only good guys in the setting and that actually allows for the best narratives to form. Especially with their Allie’s

Nicassar for example are an apex level threat to the Deathwatch because they can use empathic psyker abilities to paralyze space marines with images of their mother

You can get into deep philosophical debates about the virtues of accepting humanity has failed at the “galactic chess game” and that it’s time to formally give up individuality in the arguments of Gue’vesa’O Va’deem a former inquisitor

And you can see how tau are both naive and actually throwing gas on the “chaos fire” by rejecting the more draconian ways you need to be in order to fight chaos. By being “good” you’re exacerbating evil (like that time they allied with genestealer cults and didn’t realize the plot twist)

(Thanks for suffering through my Ted talk)

[plush mason]

the closest you ever get to a good guy in 40k is an anti-villain

which faction wise are the tau

[brittle slate]

1. I think that used to be the case because guilliman is absolutely written like captain America.

2. The tau would be good guys in most sci fi settings if you ignore the Kelly bs

When Andy chambers Thorpe and McNeill invented them they were meant to be a coalition of aliens led by the 1999 version of jedi

[plush mason]

i doubt that. guilliman has a lot of blood on his hands afaik

[brittle slate]

While Farsight was Kurtz from apocalypse now

[brittle slate]

Have you read his plague war books? Dude is captain America

Everyone he outsmarts is basically hydra

He’s from a more perfect time

He’s melancholy that everything he and his friends sacrificed has been perverted

He’s trying to do the right thing

[plush mason]

which version? because even captain america goes rogue at one point due to the super hero regulations act

[brittle slate]

He makes compromises with basically everyone

[brittle slate]

Marvel cinematic universe captain. C’mon, GW doesn’t read other comic book universes anymore they just go to the movies.

[plush mason]

well said going rogue happens in both

iirc the movie was literally called civil war, which is it it was

[brittle slate]

He’s still the good guy

[celest dome]

Current Guilliman fit the prior to Great Crusade Guilliman, like with the Imperium Secondus

[brittle slate]

The casualty was putting one guy in a wheelchair. C’mon

And- it was the iron man factions own fault

Cap is always the good guy.

[plush mason]

i mean. in that he wasnt

which was my whole point

[brittle slate]

… literally sticking to the notions of freedom to inform his break with iron man who literally wants to license and regulate everyone.

[celest dome]

I mean, regulation aren't bad things

Cars have regulation for obvious reasons

[brittle slate]

If this is the realization that we all are on board with the greater good im ready for it.

[celest dome]

What ?

[brittle slate]

But not to muddy the waters. Guilliman has only made good guy decisions since he got back.

[brittle slate]

The greater good that the tau want people to get on board with is effectively regulation

[celest dome]

Even before he came back he made mosty good descisions

It's not new

[brittle slate]

And they don’t even force you into it.

[brittle slate]

Did I say anything to the contrary?

Guilliman is 40ks good guy.

That’s what I’m saying.

[brittle slate]

In response to this

[celest dome]

What I'm always gonna say, is that the Tau are like India, there is a hard cast system, that's not good, at all
If you want to simply say that who want to make regulation is good, then so are the Admech, the Inquisition and many others.

Guilliman is trying to fight against the rot that has taken the Imperium, the Ethereal are making regulation to make their holds stronger

[storm jungle]

My guy legit says he just wants to sit down and live the rest of his life as a farmer

[plush mason]

wtf

[proud mango]

I've always seen him more of a Sulla than a Cincinnatus, though he definitely has that Marius vibe going for him with his constant reforms

[plush mason]

yeah. amazon cant do shit to the lore

[storm jungle]

Yeee deffo

Guilliman basically is a good person at heart since he was raised by

you know

actual parents

[proud mango]

haha

[storm jungle]

The problem is hes in charge of the Imperium

[proud mango]

I always felt Rogal Dorn was the good guy

but I am biased

[storm jungle]

he more or less says he accepted the atrocities of the Great Crusade like Dorn, Corax and Vulkan because they KNEW later they could fix the Imperium and reform it

[plush mason]

the man really is just a walking white privilege trope lmao

[proud mango]

yeah guess Horus really fucked everything up for humanity

[rustic spruce]

Hey rogal had loving parents

[celest dome]

Rogal isn't bad either

Did Sanguinus have good parents ?

[plush mason]

basically the successful primarchs for the most part all landed on stable well off worlds and got raised by rich powerful parents

thats literally the only reason they where so successful before big e reclaimed them

and ofc big e favored them for it

[pseudo laurel]

Neutral, he grew up in a tribal world where their first instinct was to splatter his brains on the sand

[barren tapir]

Corvus want to say something, but asked me to say because he is shy

[brittle slate]

Except the caste system saved them. They aren’t India. They’re aliens.

[brittle slate]

So maybe he’s Superman then

[brittle slate]

I love Dorn. Dude is a psychopath

[plush mason]

thus why i said for the most part. there where some exceptions

corvus leman and sanquinius come to mind first

[storm jungle]

Look

we already got the rogue space-pod landing on a human planet

[proud mango]

yeah sending the imperial fists into the iron guantlet... 😰

actually been working my way through Horus Rising (partially thanks to this chat), he really decent for a Primarch, can only guess what it takes to turn him. Can imagine its one of these Heath Ledger joker moments...

[plush mason]

dude was big big mad at the time

[proud mango]

https://tenor.com/view/joker-all-it-takes-little-push-gif-19198698

[plush mason]

years of bitter rivalry with perty and the pain grief and self anger at not being able to save big e and then gilliman having 0 sense of timing and making the codex

[brittle slate]

Oh… my god

https://tenor.com/view/butter-robot-gif-21973199

[brittle slate]

He failed to keep dad safe

But then he also didn’t give a shit about civilians

Unlike Sang or Khan

[brittle slate]

A really perfect Manchurian candidate situation

[celest dome]

He was pragmatic, if Horus won everything, then the civilians would die to the Daemon anyway

[proud mango]

didn't he?

[proud mango]

makes sense :/

[proud mango]

its weird because so far, Horus seems pretty decent (as far as Primarchs go) too - I had the impression Horus was a dick

[brittle slate]

No that was his knack

Charisma

[last lagoon]

Horus was a Master manipulator

He even fakes his Cthonian accent

[languid edge]

Yeah it pretty much is implied and even discussed he changed his demeanor and attitude based on the people he was interacting with to gain their loyalty or trust

[last lagoon]

The only real Horus I would say we see is his interview with the remembrancer

Where his drops his entire facade

[brittle slate]

Same thing the emperor does basically

Appearing what you want to see

[languid edge]

Yes and thats the scary thing

Considering we truly have no idea what he looks like

[full bane]

Just like dear old dad.

Except Horus doesn't just perception filter the shit out of everything with sheer psychic might.

[languid edge]

facts lol

[rich vale]

Horus is a punk ass kid cause he thought he could actually kill Big E and just got one shot out of existence

[coarse mirage]

40k is a sitcom

One dad and his dozen or so unruly sons on one whaaacky space adventure

[proud mango]

yeah just got to that bit, seems like he's set up to be the natural successor to the big E

[rich vale]

https://tenor.com/view/kirb-poyo-kirby-explode-gif-15090120

Magnus trying to warn the Emperor

[jagged monolith]

Now kiss

[arctic talon]

Wait no

That was worded terribly

[jagged monolith]

👀

https://tenor.com/view/i-saw-w-gus-fring-gus-gustavo-deleted-gif-25440636

[arctic talon]

[crisp heath]

I'm not going to spoil much for you, but alot of the traitor primarchs are "decent" people before the Heresy. Horus is manipulative at first but not like, evil manipulative, just kind of focused on gaining the trust his men.
Some really weird stuff happens to that boy in the first 2 books.

Honestly Mortarion was surprisingly nice before the heresy. An abnormally sweet boy.

[arctic talon]

He was really nice to his sons yeah

Aside from the uh

[last lagoon]

Racism

[arctic talon]

Hating psyker stuff

And that

But that’s a given for anyone in the imperium

[crisp heath]

What? A racist? In 40k?

[arctic talon]

[brittle slate]

Yeah- the rebellion was actually pretty reasonable

[crisp heath]

I wouldn't say "reasonable", Horus blatantly wasn't thinking clearly when he chose to escalate, but it's nice to see that the primarchs did actually have things they valued that the Emperor just kind of spit in the face of. Horus even complains about taxes in the first book, the great revolt-maker

[coarse mirage]

The vaunted great emperor, couldn’t even understand taxes.

[hushed kayak]

i think people are ignoring the fact that Nurgle was constantly in his head, even when he first met the emperor.

[coarse mirage]

It’s funny how badly the emperor missteps

[brittle slate]

i liked it when he was fallible. they make him more and more op with each retelling

back in the day he was almost strangled to death by an ork warboss

then it was an ork mini-gargant

then he let the mini-gargant do it

it's just a regular anime series i suppose

[crisp heath]

My favorite angle for the Emperor is "he's just a man, with immense power, and now he's dead"

[brittle slate]

ditto

[proud mango]

can't wait! I know that GW have used alot of historical figures for inspiration for characters, Horus reminds me of Julius Casear. Adored by his men, politically astute, ultimately wants to do what he feels is best for his people, military genius, charismatic, but flawed and probably a touch too arrogant.

[dusk patrol]

Most of the primarchs reasons for turning traitor were pretty petty tbh, that whole part of the Heresy is kinda butchered or done poorly imo.

Which is fine, but it definitely makes it annoying.

[celest dome]

The Emperor is an idea that was drastic, and a failure, for it wasn't the true solution

[proud mango]

or imperial propaganda, and an unreliable narrator? 😉

[dusk patrol]

Mortartion was made because he got his kill stolen even though he was gonna die, Perturabo was just a mess of a person the entire time who got tricked into it borderline, and mostly just had a chip on his shoulder. Curze was just batshit insane. Alpharius and Omegon makes a little more sense after their primarch book but imo it still isn't well explored at all, and is pretty nonsensical.

Horus just got stabbed with evil dagger and turned bad

Fulgrim found evil sword and turned bad, except wait he didn't! Except maybe he did.

Magnus's fall is one of the better ones I'd say.

With Angron they should have just re-written the entire thing of how the Emperor teleported him offworld, it makes no fucking sense at all.

Lorgar's is ok but also just feels like writing the Emperor to almost intentionally want Lorgar to turn evil.

I think the B-Z for most of them are fine but its the A starting point which should have been re-do to be more sensical, part of the issue being is BL doesn't want to write the Emperor as a character with consistent traits, but has to anyways.

So he just ends up as this weird hodge podge, and super inconsistent.

[vital kernel]

Of all the Primarchs, Angron always came off like a whiny brat. Didn't help that he was literally brain damaged.

[dusk patrol]

I just find the idea that the Emperor would care about not wiping out some random army for a world which doesn't matter so stupid.

It makes no sense, a world isn't even worth a primarch.

And its not like he'd lose the world, he could have blown in and taken down its leadership easily, we see how quickly they fall to a proper Imperium force later on.

It just comes across as written that "Emperor needs to make Angron hate him, so he does."

Smash cut to him having long conversations and spending weeks with his other sons.

and actively working to win them over first

[vital kernel]

Well, he should have wiped them out for damaging one of the Primarchs beyond repair. But with that said Angron in his state wasn't really that valuable to the Emperor. Makes you wonder what fuckups the two purged Primarchs were th8

[dusk patrol]

Also yeah keeping Angron around is another completely nonsensical plot point.

He has no value as a primarch

At best he just kills stuff but he doesn't even do that as well as others because his terrible leadership

[vital kernel]

Especiall since the World Eaters were a more reliable and functional Legion without Angron around

[dusk patrol]

But whatever, I just wish they'd made the general leadup make a bit more sense for some of them.

[sinful crater]

that the point that i have always wonder, do they was really purged? or not simply hidden or lost totally

[vital kernel]

It is suggested that at least one of them was purged, and there are hints that what was left of their Legions was merged with the Ultramarines.

Because the 13th was the most flexible Legion and the most widely compatible Geneseed or something.

[sinful crater]

that the point it's "suggested" no proof, no body, no smoking gun... i feel it easy to say they was purged or something while never explaining anything... the fact that the person of the universe don't know make sense, but us as spectator not knowing feel weird.

[fallen marsh]

Well we know that all primarch were found and that those 2 disappeared after big meeting between other primarchs.

[storm jungle]

You forgot the part where the Emperor also goes full "Duhhh I dunno how to save him" when he says the Nails are wrapped around his spine

coming from the guy that makes literal jesus-tier miracles and is a master of biomancy

[timid ferry]

Welcome to GW writing

[storm jungle]

Its pretty lazy and I roll my eyes at anyone trying to explain it

[rich vale]

That's why I like fantasy better overall. Lot easier for me to ignore the bad writing cause a majority of it is in end times

40k has a lot of cool concepts, but consistently poor writing

[vital kernel]

The problems was that the nails replaced so much of Angrons brain that removing them is pretty much equal to destroying his brain.
Would not have been an issue with Vulkan, but Angron is not that sturdy.
I can imagine how there should be some way to salvage it, but it was also mentioned how the Big E could not make more Primarchs, it is safe to assume some very limited DAoT juice went into their construction, after all, why wouldn't he have made 100 of them otherwise

[storm jungle]

I know but it literally sitll doesnt matter

the Emperor can literally do anything the plot allows to do powers wise

no explanation is valid

its literally just "We need angron to turn traitor"

[vital kernel]

I disagree on that, there were several occassions where the Emperor simply reached his limitations.

[storm jungle]

Yeah because again, plot.

Hes basically an Alpha Class psyker whos limits are the author's imagination more or less.

[vital kernel]

Well that's a very flimsy definition, that argument of "plot demands" can apply to anything.
It's been shown consistently that the Emperor created some wonders before the Crusade even he himself can not recreate. So those limitations are not arbitrary plot convenience.
It also has to do with pre established lore, like the Butchers Nails, which needed some reason to remain embedded.

"I can not remove them." certainly creates more interesting plot than "I don't care to remove them."

[storm jungle]

It's still pretty bad writing imo.

The Emperor suffers it a lot during the HH and Angron is one of the worst examples of it from start to finish.

[vital kernel]

Angron is a mess of writing, and consistently involved in the worst parts of the Heresy.

His Legion also has the most plot armor.

[fallen marsh]

They are stll far from Russ levels of plot armor....

[storm jungle]

Russ doesnt really count

he literally does like what

minor campaigns

goes to burn prospero

never mentioned again until the Siege is over

[arctic talon]

Russ gets his ass beaten

[storm jungle]

^

[arctic talon]

How the fuck does he have plot armor lol

Magnus beats the crap out of him

And then Horus beats him within an inch of his life

[storm jungle]

His only real job is to just burn Prospero then buzz off to get slapped by the Alpha Legion

[vital kernel]

noone can tell me a braindamaged horde of lobotomites can charge across an open field, axes waving in the air, without heavy bolters cutting them down to a fraction of their number.
The World Eaters should suffer 80% casualty rates in every engagement.

[storm jungle]

Yeah more or less

[arctic talon]

The world eaters have a strategy

Sorta

It just devolves the moment they reach enemy lines

But it’s usually an armored spear head

[fallen marsh]

You mean when he almost kills Horus but goes nah and retreats?

[arctic talon]

And then all of them get dumped into the breach in enemy lines via transports

[manic seal]

rip and tear

[arctic talon]

Horus also beats his ass lol

[manic seal]

thats world eaters strategy

[vital kernel]

Every "tactic" we have seen from World Eater PoV was literally: "And then we got angry and charged harder, and then the enemies were dead."

[storm jungle]

Dont let the World Eater stans hear you say that lmao

"omg dad hates us lets shove nails into our skulls"

"Why tho"

"Look we gotta be khorne berserkers somehow, its what the script says"

"Ah okay fair"

[vital kernel]

It's a stupid Legion with stupid Lore and stupid Characters.

[storm jungle]

Kharn's only quality is:

"Kills people. Says one liners."

more than enough to get all the fans he needs 🙏

[vital kernel]

I never understood people fawning over Kharn, he's barely a character.

[arctic talon]

Lol

Pretty much

Kharn has like

Barely anything on him

Ironicially the world eaters display better tactics in 40k

Then HH

Which is ????

[storm jungle]

Like I said, "badass man that kills people and makes jokes"

[arctic talon]

Like

Did they get so stupid

[plush mason]

they fawn over Kharn the same way people fawn over doomguy

[arctic talon]

They’ve gone full circle

Into using actual strategies

[plush mason]

as characters both doomguy and Kharn suck ass, as badass action stars tho they are amazing

[vital kernel]

There are the Lotarra waifu simps, but it's just such cognitive dissonance how this gang of brain damaged killers somehow respects and worships a base human naval officer because she gives snappy replies and is rude to people.
Makes even less sense because for most of the series the Astartes command their own ships, but I guess the World Eaters being too retarded to command their own flagship makes sense.

[fallen marsh]

The two engaged in a titanic duel, with Russ deliberately allowing himself to be wounded by Horus's Lightning Claw to create an opening to impale the treacherous Warmaster with the Spear of Russ. However, Russ hesitated to strike down his brother for a second, allowing Horus to deflect some of the blow and turn a fatal strike into a wounding.

Yeah. Horus beats his ass. Yeah. He almost kills the guy that a bit later almost kills Imperator. But sure.

[crisp heath]

Mortarion's reasoning for allying with Horus was a bit more drastic than that. He felt like an outsider among his brothers, and he saw himself as being used as tool instead of a person. He wanted to see the Emperor and the other primarchs as a family, but he understood he was designed to be a war machine. Horus was sympathetic and kind to him, so when Horus made it clear he intended to rebel Mortarion rathered to stand by him instead of the Emperor.

[vital kernel]

letting yourself get wounded to strike blow is such an overused trope in the HH. Dorn vs Alpharius is exactly the same.
Probably half a dozen other fights too.

[dusk patrol]

Mortarion's primary reason was he hated the Emperor for stealing his kill, it goes back to a lot of his book.

Although Mortarion is one of the most inconsistently written people in 40k.

So tbh there is no consistent reason depending on who wrote him. But he always hated daddy

[crisp heath]

I think all the traitor primarchs had a good reason to rebel, it's just that a lot of writers, especially in the official HH books, fumble actually portraying that because a lot them like "chaos is always chaotic stupid evil"

[vital kernel]

BL does the traitor primarchs no favour by giving them such petty childish grudges against the being that created them as literl demigods.

[storm jungle]

Morty is the only one ill say had the dumbest reason

that kill-steal thing gives me a headache every time

the others tho yeah i agree

[dusk patrol]

I would love for you to explain why Perturabo and Curze had good reasons to rebel.

[crisp heath]

Curze had a good one but fans handle it better than any official author lmao

[storm jungle]

LMFAO

[dusk patrol]

Uh

That's not how it works

[storm jungle]

I like Pert's because at the end of the day it was kind of entirely his fault

he was always the yes-man

never saying no and being the architect of his own misery

his sister literlaly tells him this

[crisp heath]

Perturabo is just a self-destructive angry little man

[storm jungle]

and he gets mad and strangles him

[dusk patrol]

As much as I agreed that some fan theories are better than others, its still not canon

Perturabo and Curze were both their own worst enemies.

Sanguinius is literally just Curze but without being self destructive.

He even had a lot of similar flaws, Curze was just an awful perosn

[crisp heath]

Yeah, Curze is objectively a defective loser incapable of having a rational thought, any time he almost does something good he freaks out and blames his fuckup on the universe

[vital kernel]

Perts only good moment in the entire Horus Heresy was telling Horus to eat shit and withdrawing his entire Legion from the Siege when Mortarion was put in charge.

[dusk patrol]

And he chose the worst path every time.

[storm jungle]

Sangy also literally tells this to Curze before jettisoning him out into space screaming in a metal casket

[dusk patrol]

Basically

Curze needs his visions to be guaranteed to be true, even though we see in his primarch book he had two paths early on.

He just always took the worst most cynical option

He never took a risk for a better world.

[storm jungle]

Yeah I more or less gave up on Curze the moment she flayed a woman alive for trying to attempt suicide

[dusk patrol]

And eventually, he became a self fulfilling prophecy

[crisp heath]

There was one book where Curze tried to save a kid instead of killing him, and realized it would change fate for the better, but at the last second the kid was so scared of Curze he rathered kill himself than get captured. I don't think it's in "Night Haunter" but it could be, Curze was the first lore I ever read and I haven't revisited it in a long time.

[dusk patrol]

Tbh I thought that bit was just dumb even in the context of the book.

[storm jungle]

Yeah I did not like it

[dusk patrol]

It didn't even make sense for his character yet

[dusk patrol]

It is I think

But yeah thats my point

[crisp heath]

I like Curze. He's so obsessed with justice that he completely fails to realize that justice exists to protect people. He has no end goal and no real reason to do what he does, but he thinks he does. He's just textbook crazy.

[dusk patrol]

Curze and Perturabo made their own fates.

[vital kernel]

Curze is nonsensical because he tries to do the whole "you're no better than me" thing while his Legion wear people capes

[crisp heath]

Idk I think Curze is crazy in a way that makes sense, and he's still one of my favorite primarchs. Just a terrible, bitter little monster who thinks he's entirely justified despite not having any actual point.

[storm jungle]

'That is not true,' said Perturabo, though the acid of uncertainty began to eat at him. 'He underestimates me. They all do.'

Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream, 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out, 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' 'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' She got shakily to her feet. Exoskeletal braces whirred under her skirts.

'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man.'

'I am not a man,' he said. 'I am far more.'

[rustic spruce]

Curze when vulkan folds him like a lawn chair

[crisp heath]

If you're ever cornered by an assailant, pick him up with one hand and use his face to break a force field

I think maybe the difference is that while I recognize most things in 40k are poorly handled, I do tend to take the most favorable interpretation. I guess I judge primarchs based on how they are at their best written, because I judge most things by how they are at their best written. Everythings fuzzy and spread out and even the official writers feel like they're basically writing fanfic sometimes, so there's like, a spectrum where all these characters could be recognized but still act totally different from your interpretation.

That's kind of what I was getting at when I said fans handle Curze better. All the pieces of what I like about him are in canon, it's all there, but official writers tend to fumble putting them together a lot of the time in a way that fans of Curze don't.

[rustic spruce]

Curze was so confident when he denied vulkan his teleporter

That he forget that he gave him a hammer

[dusk patrol]

I think the Heresy is fun, but the early stuff wrote them into a lot of corners

Some of which got written out of better than others.

They originally planned for like five books.

And it shows

Legions like the Iron Hands, my beloved, get absolutely shafted

[crisp heath]

The first 5 books were good, and then all the individual plot lines after that are all over the place. It feels like the different authors and GW didn't communicate clearly about how things were supposed to come together, and some of the books, like the Raven Guard ones, are just bad on their own terms.

[storm jungle]

as ever the constant problem of 40k:

[dusk patrol]

The Raven Guard one*

[storm jungle]

Too many cooks in the kitchen

[dusk patrol]

and Nick Kyme has a stranglehold on Sallies

So their books always suck dick

[storm jungle]

I genuinely do not understand

how you can make like

5-6 bad Salamander books

how

[dusk patrol]

He's the main editor

And by all accounts, really good at that

But jfc just realize you're a shit writer already

[crisp heath]

I as thinking of Ravenlord and Raptor both

[dusk patrol]

I don't really count novellas

They're short stories with a snazzier name

But yeah they do have those.

[plush mason]

ok. would it kill them to not use a bird related name for a ravenguard book?

[storm jungle]

I mean

have you seen most 40k book titles

[crisp heath]

But then how'd you know they're the raven marines?

[storm jungle]

"What do we title this book about Kasrkin?"

"Uh, Kasrkin."

[plush mason]

lol

[storm jungle]

"What do we title this book about Krieg?"

"Dunno, Krieg?"

[urban spire]

100% those are marketing names

so timmy can see the book in the store and go "that's My Guys!"

[crisp heath]

GW only gets super creative with xenos, but they never want to make anything focused on xenos lmao

[vital kernel]

The Ultramarines got pretty dope titles, "Know no Fear"

[storm jungle]

God I love tha tbook

[plush mason]

so long as its marketing coming up with those names and not the authors im ok with it then

[storm jungle]

then again written by Abnett, instant-win

[crisp heath]

I mean yeah the lore is mostly just an advertising campaign for really expensive toys, that's not a secret, but it's still a shame they don't put a little more care into it

[plush mason]

marketing never does

[arctic talon]

I’d say they put a good bit of love into it

[crisp heath]

Of course I'm glad lore isn't their main moneymaker otherwise they'd be charging us $50 for a paperback lmao

[arctic talon]

But eh

[urban spire]

abnett is wasted on the horus heresy imo

[plush mason]

lol

[crisp heath]

They definitely just asked him to write the first book to trick people into the thinking the series would be good lmao

[arctic talon]

Lol

I don’t like the HH that much

But I’m not the biggest fan of marines so that’s prolly why lol

[vital kernel]

Who writes the finale of the Siege of Terra series? ADB wrote the last one which was pretty good imo

[urban spire]

i fucking hate marines

[crisp heath]

I like 30k marines more than the 40k marines tbh, but the HH books themselves are so hit or miss and the series is overall "ok, but I don't want to read 50 of these"

[urban spire]

i think they can be handled well but there is an overwhelming amount of material where they are emphatically not

[fallen marsh]

HH went downhill after first few books.

[arctic talon]

The siege is pretty good so far

[vital kernel]

I really gave up on the HH series until Solar War came out and that instantly rekindled my interest.

[arctic talon]

Still would rather read the rule book for 9th edition tho lol

[vital kernel]

"Wow, something happening, innit"

[crisp heath]

I do like Space Wolves, but mostly because they're so unapologetically stupid. Pure dork shit, love it.

[arctic talon]

They know they’re kinda dumb

And they’re okay with it

[plush mason]

"you never grew into a man" well seeing as the whole point of the space marines is to be the enbodyment a 12 year old boy's idealized version of manhood yeah i guess that makes sense

[arctic talon]

holy fuck you killed peter turbo lol

[crisp heath]

I haven't read Twice Dead King yet. Is it actually about Necrons or is it like Brutal Kunnin where the xenos are hyped up before all the story goes to Imperium and Chaos?

[plush mason]

that was less of a jab at peter and more a jab at all space marines

[rustic spruce]

Perturabo be like “why do i get all the shitty jobs” after he himself signed up for the shitty jobs

[vital kernel]

I can't take the Wolves serious because of all their idiotic "we're so special and mysterious" pretentious bullshit.
The only ones who would have had a right to that attitude were the Dark Angels but somehow the writers managed to turn them into the Walmart Staff of 40k.

[brittle slate]

I was only supposed to be like 8/10

[arctic talon]

It’s about Necrons

All the necron books we have

Are good

[desert solstice]

Gotta question for the lore scribes again. What're the general "bad GW writing" tropes?

[brittle slate]

Break someone’s back with knee

[arctic talon]

Weird numbers is the big one

[brittle slate]

Stabbing secondary hearts

[arctic talon]

But they’ve stopped giving us solid numbers lol

[crisp heath]

I like Space Wolves because I don't take them seriously. The guys have literal wolf DNA and can devolve into big dogs, they're vikings that are nothing at all like vikings, they're such good and pure angels who also like to crush skulls, just every aspect of them is a little bit dumb and it's wonderful.

[vital kernel]

Man remember the Unremembered Empire? That happened lol.

[brittle slate]

Losing everything and… then oh wait we’re fine

[desert solstice]

what you mean "weird numbers?"

[brittle slate]

Not understanding how big anything is.

[arctic talon]

Too small

Of a number

[brittle slate]

Or too big

[desert solstice]

but like in what context?

troop size?

[arctic talon]

Battles

[vital kernel]

Sometimes I wonder if Roboute still cringes in 40k when he remembers that oopsie in Ultramar

[crisp heath]

Any time 40k has a number, it's a bad number

[brittle slate]

Many thousands of blood angels show up for a civil war

… there can only be 1k

[arctic talon]

Eh the multi quadrillion count for people on terra is fine

[desert solstice]

ah

[arctic talon]

It’s possible irl

[urban spire]

frater perdurabo was the ~magical name~ aleister crowley took when he joined the hermetic order of the golden dawn

in case you're wondering where the name perturabo comes from

[desert solstice]

what other common bad "GW-isms" are there

[brittle slate]

The eldar are a dying race…

Commoragh compared to a Hive is a mountain when compared to an ant hill

[arctic talon]

Super big badass thing killed by a named character

But that’s just

A common fantasy trope

[crisp heath]

Helsreach was actually numbered realistically for like, a real-world battle where a walled city has to fend off a storming army, the reason it felt so plastic and fake was because it was like, a thousand guardsmen, the city reaches into the atmosphere, and the storming army is a tidal wave of orks

[arctic talon]

Tbf there’s still way more humans then eldar

[vital kernel]

HH experienced massible number creep. In Book 1 the Sons of Horus had like 10k Marines, and the Ultramarines were special for having 100k Marines.
But halfway through the series it soemhow evolved to where every legion is like 100k or so, with the Ultramarines being like 300k

[arctic talon]

They’re a dying race in comparison to humans

[brittle slate]

Then gets literally kicked down the stars by Yeats.

[desert solstice]

i can sort of understand that tbh.

[urban spire]

YEAH

lmao

[brittle slate]

Lol

[urban spire]

crowley was such a pathetic piece of garbage

[arctic talon]

Comorroagh being huge is fine

[urban spire]

i love him

[arctic talon]

Tbh

[brittle slate]

They aren’t a dying race.

That idea was when craftworlders were the only eldar

[vital kernel]

Dark Eldar are doing relatively fine for themself.

[brittle slate]

Clearly not the case now.

[arctic talon]

Depends on perspective they can’t hold any ground in real space

[crisp heath]

Yeats has multiple occasions where he chose violence to solve a dispute with wizards lol

[brittle slate]

That’s because they slowly die in real space

[vital kernel]

I suppose Craftworld Eldar as a Culture are dying out.

[arctic talon]

Culturally speaking they’re fineish

They don’t really fight that often

It’s a fallen empire

[urban spire]

have any of the big craftworlds actually been lost?

[arctic talon]

That’s what the eldar should be described as

[crisp heath]

The Eldar percieve themselves as a dying race, but they still far outnumber modern humanity. They used to rule most of the galaxy and now they're just a shadow of that.

[arctic talon]

Biel’tan is shattered

[brittle slate]

Biel tan

There are likely trillions of dark eldar

It’s a stupid argument. They’re fine.

[arctic talon]

I mean yeah

[brittle slate]

The eldar high empire wasn’t even that big to begin with

[arctic talon]

But they’ve fallen from their former position of strength

[urban spire]

"the eldar is a dying race" is a tolienism, it can go

[arctic talon]

And are damned to being eaten by slaanesh

[urban spire]

tolkienism*

[arctic talon]

It’s better to call them a fallen empire

More then a dying race

[crisp heath]

Iyanden isn't "lost" but it has more wraithguard than living Eldar, it's like a huge necropolis now

[rustic spruce]

Is malan’tai getting game ended by the zoanthrope still canon

[brittle slate]

I don’t even know if I agree with that but it’s semantics at this point

[arctic talon]

Yes

[crisp heath]

we don't talk about that

[arctic talon]

Malan’tai wasn’t even that large of a craftworld

But yeah it getting destroyed by the doom of Malantai is still canon

[urban spire]

biel tan is still around though right

[arctic talon]

Yeah

It’s just fucked up now lol

[brittle slate]

Commoragh has been expanding exponentially to incorporate other dimensional realms. It might be larger then the original eldar empire

[arctic talon]

Like really fucked up

[urban spire]

it seems like none of the major craftworlds are going to actually get blown up, seeing as how they're all armies on the tabletop

[brittle slate]

Well yeah

[arctic talon]

I mean yeah

[brittle slate]

Lol

Cadia… stands?

[arctic talon]

Cadians are still around bcs of all their colonies

The eldar don’t have that

[crisp heath]

I mean they could do a Cadia and have the survivors go to other Craftworlds or even flee to an Exodite world

[brittle slate]

Sure they do

[rose thorn]

Cadia stands!

[arctic talon]

So we are never gona get an eldar craftworld getting wiped out entirely

[urban spire]

also the main export of cadia was cadians

[brittle slate]

Exodites, new webway realms ect

[arctic talon]

Yeah this lul

Lots of fuckin Cadians

Are around

[brittle slate]

Kinda dumb too

[arctic talon]

There’s at least 2 new Cadias made pre fall of Cadia kekw

[brittle slate]

If you love something that and choose to kill it to get the emotional tear jerk= let them die

https://tenor.com/view/titanic-breaks-sinking-ship-gif-15967933

Jack died folks.

Making cheap copies to make the children happy is just putting off the inevitable.

[crisp heath]

I'm trying to think of armies that were actually destroyed in lore to take them off the tabletop, but I don't think that's happened in decades (and they still ended up bringing one of them back 🤔 )

[arctic talon]

Squats kekw

And that’s it

And they got brought back in both their original form in necromunda

[brittle slate]

BFG*

[arctic talon]

And in a new way in 40k

[crisp heath]

I thought there were other fantasy races in the early days and squats were just the popular one

[arctic talon]

No

They were never playable as a faction

If they didn’t have a codex in 2e they don’t count

[crisp heath]

ah

[brittle slate]

You might be thinking Slann?

Lizardmen in space

[arctic talon]

Slann never had a codex

Iirc

[fallen marsh]

They lost most of the wraith constructs to Ynnari. Biel-tan is mostly gone, Saimhann lost half of the population, 1/3 of Alaitoc is destroyed. And Ulthwe also lost big chunk of their population to Ynnari.

[arctic talon]

The thing about squats is they got one

Then they got sent to hell lol

[urban spire]

the eradication of squats from the lore was so weirdly aggressive

[arctic talon]

The writers and modelers really didn’t like them kekw

[rustic spruce]

They tried a very odd aesthetic for squats

Then gave up

[urban spire]

people trying to bring up the absence of squats on the GW forums were getting banned for it

[arctic talon]

Also most of the squat asthetic was in Epic anyways

[storm jungle]

to be fair

[arctic talon]

And not mainline 40k

[storm jungle]

GW forums

not exactly the epitome of warhammer sites

[arctic talon]

Lol

[storm jungle]

You say anything bad and they'd probably ban you

[urban spire]

still a better forum than SA

[arctic talon]

Squats in mainline 40k had 0 character

Squats in epic had the weird biker thing

[urban spire]

weird aesthetic space bikers? they gave it a shot

[arctic talon]

Yeah

Can’t say they didn’t try

[rustic spruce]

Now we have mega mining space dwarves

[arctic talon]

But they really didn’t like it lol

[urban spire]

like dieselpunk space bikers but really cartoony

[fallen marsh]

Squats should have stayed dead. Their model line is so bad. It fits Mass Effect not 40k

[rustic spruce]

Mine the whole planet at once

[arctic talon]

It fits 40k fine

Tbh

[storm jungle]

40k has no aesthetic

[arctic talon]

They fit the clean future tech asthetic

Also that lol

[storm jungle]

^

[arctic talon]

They fill a new niche

For GW

[storm jungle]

people assume everything has to look gothic and like a junkyard explosion

[arctic talon]

or rather “new” niche

They aren’t part of the imperium of man

[dusk patrol]

Tbh I just dislike the Votann look because its generic to me.

[urban spire]

anyway orks kinda had the market cornered on cartoony biker diesel punk i guess

[arctic talon]

So they don’t need to look like the IoM

[dusk patrol]

The only stuff I like is the future Norse stuff

The general look is just kinda meh to me.

[arctic talon]

The best stuff is their infantry

Tbh

[fallen marsh]

Their niche is being as generic as sci fi look can get. Ok

[arctic talon]

Their vehicles are meh

[urban spire]

i like their new space bikers

[arctic talon]

But I like the infantry with golden horse heads

And gold runes

[crisp heath]

I like their look. A lot cleaner, but still some room for grit.

[storm jungle]

I'm simply here for 40k hashut votann

[arctic talon]

I would have rather gotten khadron overlords in space

Tbh

[storm jungle]

[storm jungle]

Also so much this

[arctic talon]

But I don’t mind the current asthetic

[storm jungle]

Kharadons legit look so fucking good

[arctic talon]

Khadron overlords are great

[brittle slate]

… tau

[storm jungle]

they'd fit right into 40k

[arctic talon]

Prolly some of my favorite dwarf designs

[dusk patrol]

I just wanted more ornate armor.

[storm jungle]

🙏

[brittle slate]

LoV is just for people who hate tau but want sci fi

[arctic talon]

Tau fit a dif clean sci fi

Imo

[dusk patrol]

I really don't care for the look of the baseline dudes

[arctic talon]

They have the much blockier style

[dusk patrol]

Tau are more distinct yeah

[brittle slate]

And even LoV asthetic doesn’t make sense

[arctic talon]

The Leagues have that smooth NASA looking stuff

[dusk patrol]

More anime

mecha and shit

[brittle slate]

Except for the shirtless dudes

[arctic talon]

Yeah Tau are based on Mecha stuff

[brittle slate]

And the alien vibe suits

[dusk patrol]

I mean not all of it is ever gonna be 100%

[brittle slate]

It’s not distinct enough

[urban spire]

are you telling me the votann are america and the tau are the soviet union

[dusk patrol]

But their general look is that

[arctic talon]

Other way around

[frank cradle]

taint of chaos is kinda weird in darktide

[arctic talon]

Tbh

[brittle slate]

Tau are NATO

LoV is retro

[crisp heath]

I like LoV/T'au from a theme perspective because it blows the "Imperium is so bad because it has to be to survive". It's just a declining empire being unnecessarily cruel and destructive people, and being proud of it.

[arctic talon]

Yeah the LoV have a very retro future look

I’d rather them have gotten more shit

With golden runes

And stuff

[rustic spruce]

Does the votaan mining ship cook a planet before it mines it?

[brittle slate]

If they had lore to back it up

[arctic talon]

No

[brittle slate]

They have… nothing

[arctic talon]

It just eats the damn thing

[brittle slate]

It’s pathetic

[arctic talon]

They just came out

So

[dusk patrol]

I'm telling you that the foot is NATO and your ass is a unaligned state in the middle of the cold war.

[arctic talon]

0 lore is sort of a given Lol

[brittle slate]

Guard are coming out and have 3 books in their launch window

[urban spire]

votann are going to get fleshed out

[arctic talon]

Especially since the 9e codexes

[brittle slate]

Tau came out and has 2

[arctic talon]

Don’t have any lore

[urban spire]

remember what the necrons were like when they just came out?

[dusk patrol]

Except it really doesn't, because they're just ruled by AI instead.

[arctic talon]

Boring as fuck

Lol

[urban spire]

literally, explicitly zero personality

[brittle slate]

They got Nightbringer

[brittle slate]

That’s a meme

[arctic talon]

They were still boring as hell

On launch

They had no lore

[brittle slate]

Oldcrons had tons of lore

[arctic talon]

On launch in 3e no

In 4e sure

[brittle slate]

… are you not counting C’tan as necrons?

[urban spire]

i was a necrons enjoyer in dawn of war i submerged my skull in oldcron lore until my skin melted off

[arctic talon]

We didn’t know shit about the C’tan when they came out

[brittle slate]

Deceiver got his own short story

[urban spire]

they had lore but no personality

[brittle slate]

Nightbringer got a novel with space marines

[arctic talon]

A while after launch

[brittle slate]

Necrons we’re woken up by mad max orks on Gorkamorka

[arctic talon]

Is my point

[dusk patrol]

Like the issue I have with people saying the Votann prove that the Imperium is bad is they're literally born and handed all the best stuff on a silver platter, with no work, and they're just controlled by their AI creators anyways.

[brittle slate]

Necrons also got threaded into every major plot line

[dusk patrol]

Not to mention the Imperium is bad because of other stuff it does.

[arctic talon]

They didn’t get all that lore at once

[crisp heath]

The story of necron lore is that GW didn't just want them to be Tomb Kings in space, but then realized they could sell Tomb Kings in space

[storm jungle]

Necrons got their entire reboot because nobody wanted to play a faceless army with no goals beyond being bottom-bitches to the C'tan.

It's not good from a business perspective when your faction has no homebrew possibilities.

[dusk patrol]

They were robot Tyranids

[arctic talon]

Yeah

Pretty much lol

[dusk patrol]

It was boring

[storm jungle]

God

[brittle slate]

They were eldritch horror for 40k

[storm jungle]

Eternal as ever dropping facts

🙏

[arctic talon]

No they weren’t

[dusk patrol]

And it was boring

[arctic talon]

They weren’t eldritch

Because the C’tan had very quantifiable goals

And personalities

[urban spire]

they aren't controlled by the AI, the AI can take centuries to make decisions, the kin are mostly left to figure shit out on their own

[brittle slate]

The necron lords

[arctic talon]

Necron lords had no personality

[brittle slate]

Who also still retained their intellect

Yes. They did. Not all of them.

You had 2 pretending to be imperial officials

[urban spire]

also being handed the best shit on a silver platter is how things work when your high tech scifi society doesn't suck ass

lol

[dusk patrol]

The AI make them, the AI choose their path, the AI create them for a purpose ahead of time, and their whole purpose in life is to give the AI more knowledge and keep them around.

[arctic talon]

Lol

[crisp heath]

They need to bring back Necron Pariahs tbh. It was one of the coolest things they had.

[brittle slate]

LoV is painful with the lack of details

[arctic talon]

They exist as a failed experiment

Rn

[brittle slate]

Now just another thing emperor does

[dusk patrol]

Like, the LoV's whole lore right now is "we have better version of thing you do"

Their codex is painful to read

[urban spire]

yeah their guns are pretty boring

[arctic talon]

The necron pariah’s are a thing sorta

[storm jungle]

they are literally

[urban spire]

"like imperium but gooder"

[storm jungle]

all imperial guns

[arctic talon]

Szeras fucked up

[storm jungle]

but blocky

[arctic talon]

Lol

[storm jungle]

and with runes

[dusk patrol]

Like I really wanted to like them

[brittle slate]

And tau guns and mechanicus guns

[arctic talon]

Yeah the LoV have a shit codex

For lore

[brittle slate]

It’s stupid

[dusk patrol]

But they read like a really bad OC

[arctic talon]

Like every 9e army

[brittle slate]

Like everything in 9th

[dusk patrol]

I hope they get expanded on a lot

[urban spire]

they're going to get better

[dusk patrol]

I hope so

[arctic talon]

9th is fine for rules

Or rather

[brittle slate]

Eh

[arctic talon]

Balance overall

[brittle slate]

Balance sure

[arctic talon]

I’d take it over 7th

[dusk patrol]

But right now their lore is as bad as their table top rules were for me.

[arctic talon]

Aka hotshot and grav hell

[dusk patrol]

I like some of the ideas but I need way more.

[urban spire]

what are their rules like anyway?

[arctic talon]

Very strong

[dusk patrol]

I think they mostly got fixed.

[crisp heath]

I think the question of whether I end up liking the Leagues is based largely on the extent they'll go to in order to protect their tech, they should probably lean into the more heretical elements of it while trying to maintain good relations with the Imperium

[arctic talon]

They’re still quite strong

With the battle bus of death

[brittle slate]

It’s just goofy

[arctic talon]

With angry dwarves inside

[dusk patrol]

All I know is no one in my local GW will fight them.

[arctic talon]

You kill the bus

[rustic spruce]

Which edition had the cracked imperial guard conscripts

[arctic talon]

The angry dwarves kill you

[dusk patrol]

No one plays them

[arctic talon]

8e

[dusk patrol]

So idk

[arctic talon]

Also technically 9e

[dusk patrol]

But I'm not a big tabletop guy

[brittle slate]

The only thing interesting about LoV in the lore is that they have a shoot on sight with mechanicus

[arctic talon]

Till the codex comes out

And 9e

Guard are also broken as fuck

As in their new codex

[urban spire]

that's funny

[arctic talon]

Sentinels are absurdly undercosted

[brittle slate]

And if they absorb all the demiurg fluff= their connection to the original (potentially Blackstone fortress wielding) Kroot empire

[urban spire]

the last time i took an interest in the tabletop the guard sucked ass at everything but vehicles

[arctic talon]

Lol

[dusk patrol]

That's what a new codex does

[arctic talon]

Guard infantry is also good in their new codex

[dusk patrol]

Prepare for World Eaters booty blasting

[arctic talon]

Tbh

Kasrkin are horrifying

[brittle slate]

Teleporting stormtroopers that reroll everything and mortal wound everything

[urban spire]

reminds me of necrons lol

[arctic talon]

God

Kasrkin are so stupid

And so are sentinels

In the new book

[dusk patrol]

Lore accurate Kasrkin

[arctic talon]

But I’d take it over the pure fucking conscript blobs

That we saw in 8th

[dusk patrol]

This is why I never play with people who build meta armies

[arctic talon]

Oh I’m sorry whiteshields

Not conscripts

[dusk patrol]

Just with local dipshits who buy what looks neat

[arctic talon]

And guess what white shields do

They can’t fail orders

So have fun drowning in a casual 3000 fucking shots

Actually

[plush mason]

lol

[arctic talon]

You could prolly shove more conscripts in

[urban spire]

the imperial guard is much cooler as a faction where the troops kinda suck but the vehicles rock ass