hivescum-class

[mighty belfry]

It's not baseline, the best class for melee.

[stray mulch]

or ranged

its like 50|50 or 60|40/40|60

[flat mist]

Unyielding + sprint efficiency

[stray mulch]

PPL DO USE THAT

[mighty belfry]

That's my needler setup ya

[shrewd chasm]

anyone got a good tac axe loadout for hive scum

[stray mulch]

how much does 10% reload speed even matter

especially if you aren't actively committing to the use of the gun

[bronze glade]

it's not a bad idea

if you're using melee most of the time

[stray mulch]

i think the actual reload time needs to be considered

i cant count it out but its like a 1.7s reload maybe

or maybe a whole 2 seconds

[mighty belfry]

Its actually pretty noticeable when you consider that it's a staged reload

[lost ravine]

aren't all reloads staged

[stray mulch]

^

[mighty belfry]

When I didn't run it, there were a lot of moments where the animation wouldn't actually finish before I switched

And then when I tried to use it

Well

[stray mulch]

i dont think there is a single non staged reload lmao

[mighty belfry]

Had to finish it

[stray mulch]

lets say it save .2 seconds

that's actually kinda nice

[lost ravine]

the most staged reload is psyker brain

we love quelling peril

[mighty belfry]

Point I'm making is that reload speed is pretty noticeable across the board

For all weapons actually

[stray mulch]

i just can't mentally wrap my head around what I'd need those .2 seconds for, but it COULD help

[mighty belfry]

It's just that needle pistol is the one weapon you can afford to run the perk on

[stray mulch]

know what would make the bonesaw heavy one better....?

ACTIVATING ON HIT TALENTS 2 TIMES!

it irks me

i don't even dislike the drag because you can dodge on the 2nd hit and still have it

or i guess dodge just as it goes off

[manic wolf]

Not being the Bonesaw H1?

[stray mulch]

i dont think it's ass until im trying to stack shred and decimator

[manic wolf]

It is ass tho

Its too slow to really make use of the best parts of Scum's kit

[stray mulch]

i'm not defending it

lmao

I JUST WANT IT T0 BE BETTER

2 hits that dont act like 2 hits

you know who needs 2 hits?

fatshark

[manic wolf]

If they wanna make it better, they need to up its attack speed

Makin it proc on-hit stuff twice would cause a whole other assload of problems

[stray mulch]

upping the attack speed might be too much

im sitting at +26% atm and it feels fine for what it's worth

[bronze glade]

bonesaw has a similar issue to falch

[stray mulch]

slower weapons are fine when they dont have ass properties like only counting 1 hit when actually dealing 2

[spice cloud]

Its just damage and speed of heavy 1

[bronze glade]

where the heavies are so slow that they're just not worth using

you are usually better of just spamming light attacks

[stray mulch]

^

or at least the shove l1 into heavy isn't too terrible

[spice cloud]

Bonesaw combo inbolves lots of heavys actually

U need to weave in the push attack

[bronze glade]

even PA is a net drop in dps

[manic wolf]

Yeup, which gives it the same problems as Crowbar in that the result is half of its moveset feeling dead

[spice cloud]

U still need to do it tho or u get swarmed

[stray mulch]

half of most weapons movesets feel bad.

[bronze glade]

it's supposed to, but in practice light attack spam is still better

[bronze glade]

shock and awe and bonus cleave node 👍

and deci

if you take it over shred

[spice cloud]

Ye

[stray mulch]

been liking decimator more if you are using the strength stimm

[manic wolf]

Yes an no, the thing is that most weapons, even those with sub-par movesets still perform well with their combos on Scum because they can still make use of Scum's kit. The Bonesaw and Crowbar arent like that

[bronze glade]

they're just so poorly designed lol

[manic wolf]

They're wicked concepts, but the execution is just decidedly dogwater, yeah

[spice cloud]

Like who playtested the bonesaw and said yeah. That feels nice.

[unreal stirrup]

me when the combo include light attack but the light are so dogshit that it better to just spam h1 block cancel

[unreal stirrup]

mister e

[spice cloud]

Bonesaw lights are dogshit imo

And i love the bonesaw

[bronze glade]

the heavies are even worse generally

because of how slow they are

[spice cloud]

Idk

Doesnt feel like it

[manic wolf]

It's just all round a DoT stick and nothing more

[bronze glade]

like test in creature spawner vs. 20 bruisers

[spice cloud]

I mean im using it atleast

[bronze glade]

try light spam vs. the "proper" moveset

[spice cloud]

I did ingame

[stray mulch]

yeah, but the l1 from shove is good imo

[manic wolf]

Which is kinda pointless because Splash Damage exists, so why exactly does Bonesaw given SD works with everything

[unreal stirrup]

yeah not gonna happen

[spice cloud]

I will def not lightspam against 20 bruisers

[unreal stirrup]

who would've thought that making the weapon have DOGSHIT flak adm make them bad at horde clear even with toxin

[bronze glade]

it's faster than using PA/heavies lol

[mighty belfry]

it's not the adm

[manic wolf]

DoT stick.

[spice cloud]

But not safer

[unreal stirrup]

also slow as fuck

[mighty belfry]

it's just the base cleave that's just

pure ass

[spice cloud]

Ull get chipped

[bronze glade]

eh i mean this is the dodge class

and you have the fart on hit talent

[stray mulch]

faster, but is it safe?

[unreal stirrup]

it doesn't help that toxin actively prevent you to proc shock and awe

[mighty belfry]

realistically, it doesn't have the worst ttk against most things solely because of the toxin

[bronze glade]

tbh i think it is

because of how slow the heavies are

[stray mulch]

if i die

[mighty belfry]

it's just

awkward

[bronze glade]

but i only tested for horde clear times

[spice cloud]

U will 100% get chipped only spamming lights and never PA

[bronze glade]

in live matches i do only light spam with saw tho

[stray mulch]

that's what i think

[bronze glade]

you get insane dodges

[spice cloud]

With bonesaw

Still

[bronze glade]

it really doesn't matter

[manic wolf]

I mean sure, but the problem is that you can apply toxin with everything else too on crit and Splash Damage procs, so the Bonesaw has become the appendix of Scum's arsenal

[mighty belfry]

yeah, I agree

[stray mulch]

i feel like light spam wouldnt really cleave anything

and the cleave kinda matters

the angle from the push attack and heavy matter imo

[bronze glade]

yall need to just test it yourself

and see how it turns out lol

[spice cloud]

Lightspam is better against single target tho

I did

[bronze glade]

turns out attacking multiple times for every single heavy attack

[spice cloud]

I use it a ton

[bronze glade]

even with worse cleave

and attack angles

is still a better option

[stray mulch]

i am

im dying!

its your fault!

[bronze glade]

than waiting 3 business days for the heavy to come out

[stray mulch]

im BEING MADE FUN OF

HELP

[bronze glade]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-welcome-maui-moana-sing-what-can-i-say-except-gif-17384676

[stray mulch]

nah i can sorta see what you are saying

but i might be lacking braincells required to spam

[manic wolf]

Getting issued a skill deficiency by Bruisers is relatively common, dont worry about it

[stray mulch]

shortest visit to auric ever

left in embarrasment

in all fairness i did lag a little

i'll just learn to do it sparingly

i think aurics in expeditions might actually be unplayable for me

every wave is several hitches XD

[main wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/demoman-gamning-tf2-tf2demoman-trimping-gif-23479023

How it feels catching hang time off small rocks in Deadside with HS

Crusher overhead just swats you out of the sky with mid air vulnerability

Had a sniper take aim while I was mid air once and I felt the color drain from me like a cartoon

[spice cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-spongebob-watched-the-color-drain-from-his-face-shook-shocked-gif-10425070

[sudden fog]

yo am i trippin or are the dbl pistols just not that good lmao

[spice cloud]

Dbl?

The stubs?

[sudden fog]

double

yea

[spice cloud]

They are nit fully automatic

U just have to use em a lil differently

They have more range than most of scums guns

[sudden fog]

yea but like debately couldnt i just a full auto in place of it and be fine?

[spice cloud]

Amd are better fore special sniping

[spice cloud]

I mean yeah u can pretty much use whatever on scum

[stray mulch]

and this is why the classe is fun to me atm

trying everything yall be talking about in here

[manic wolf]

TacAxe Scum is supreme Scum and I will die on this hill

Probably whilst surrounded by dead heretics

[ruby frigate]

how do you survive against ranged gunner/reaper stacks on hivescum? this is coming from someone who has played veteran (i shoot them with a rifle that functions well at medium to long ranges), and some ogryn (i had the charge ability to dive onto them).

i found myself confused, if i didnt have the rocket launcher ability, how i can survive in their view?

maybe i am just not supposed to be exposed to it or something and play in cover, but running at them didnt seem to work, even with a max speed stimm

[reef spoke]

dodge slide to them

purposely getting clipped to get the +30% toughness regen also helps

obligatory blackouts too

[stray mulch]

stip down on the needle pistol

you can run almost indefinatley too with it XD

[ruby frigate]

i see

i currently have the default dual smgs since im levelling, but i have seen that weapon before

[stray mulch]

it might suck if you dont like the gun though

[ruby frigate]

ya i think itll be fine

im used to lining up the os headshot on vet so its a bit different

but as long as it allows me to quickly dispatch targets at range (even if they need to die to ticking poison time) then it will be something i prefer

[lucid siren]

Stripped down helps a lot but if its like a big/wide room with gunners everywhere it will be extremely dangerous but dodge dancing and melee them in between

[reef spoke]

or you know just hide behind your teammates

they have toughness to spare c:

[lucid siren]

As long as theyre alive yea

[verbal dew]

scum now also has built in better sprint dodge angles

so you can also zigzag your way through gunfire easier, even if stripped down isn't active

[bronze crown]

Can HS get a head cosmetic like the Ogryn chainsaw mowhawk for Emperor's sake?

[verbal dew]

we already have the actual hair mohawks tho

[stray mulch]

it usually isnt, because for some reason you are always getting pinged randomly

so you get back stamina while running

[pseudo venture]

quick question: how do the cooldown reduction nodes on cartelstimm work with Desperado? As i see it cooldown only starts once the ability ends so you would need to stimm between abilities to get the benefit right?

[verbal dew]

yes

[muted pivot]

Yeah, it's a bit awkward like that

[torpid cloud]

I'll need to run Chem nade and boom bringer for their penances

I really don't wanna but eh

[verbal dew]

all scum blitzes are fun

[lost ravine]

good news is boom bringer penance is like 2 games

or one of the previous event

[spice cloud]

Why not?

If u enjoy the tox blinders ull enjoy atleast the chem nade too

[muted pivot]

Chem bomb is great, and it's potentially easier to path through for a melee crit build too

You can skip the 25 toughness node and gain a point for elsewhere

Since you probably want the Riposte-as-a-talent node already and that only connects to chem bomb

[bronze crown]

https://tenor.com/view/ultraman-attack-mohawk-gif-8801355

[maiden pine]

saw a crowbar build with +3x3 stamina curios

how do I get +3 stamina curios

[vapid jungle]

Prayer

[dense hollow]

by spending your life savings rolling curio purchases or hoping it shows up in armory

you need at minimum to roll a stamina curio that has a gear rating of 410

anything lower is +2 stamina

[flat mist]

30k melk bucks will pretty much guarantee you get 3 x 3 stam curios

Get grinding varlet

[spice cloud]

Ill test that later

I bet u ill prove u wrong

[flat mist]

I hope for the sake of you suffering that you're right

[maiden pine]

how do you buy ciurious

[flat mist]

Walk up to melk. Speak to melk. Click buy curio button.

It says "randomly get a defensive item" or some shi

Costs 250 per roll

[zenith pagoda]

I am melks biggest hater

[dense hollow]

melk would never give me anything

except the time he did

which was when i didnt need it anymore

i got my +3 stamina curios from the armory

[flat mist]

I'd love to know what the odds of gettinf 21% health actually is

[dense hollow]

is the roll harder than +3 stamina?

[flat mist]

Ive spent atleast 80k and got one

[flat mist]

Yeah

[unreal stirrup]

21% health is 420 iirc?

while +3 stam is 410

[dense hollow]

that's rough

[flat mist]

Meanwhile my psyker has like 30 of the top rolls from the good old days where they'd be in the shop all the time

And i'd buy every one so i could try get the two locked perks i wanted

Shit just triggered some light ptsd thinking about locks

And spending over 50 million ordo dockets on trauma staves and not walking away with an upgrade from the one i was using

[torpid cloud]

Not infinite
Main reason I like my scum is because I don't strain ammo or nades that could be better used by other people

[spice cloud]

Ur nades are honestly better then ur teammates

Vet regenerates

Arbi regenerates

Zealots are trash pretty much

Psyker has none

Ogryn can use em but as an ogryn man i can say that scum nades are just better then ogryn nades

[dense hollow]

yeah hive scum has pretty much the best non regen blitzes in the game

[torpid cloud]

Also another important thing
I bound my grenades to a side button on my mouse

On blinder it's thrown instantly which I like
Chem nade and boom bringer however mess with my muscle memory

[spice cloud]

I have that too

[tranquil fjord]

cant believe they added zealot blitz but better for scum

[spice cloud]

Doesnt really bother me tbh

[torpid cloud]

Also I have fallen in love with stripped down on my syringe pistol

I can now just run at gunners

[tranquil fjord]

isnt stripped down broken

not to its detriment

it works at all stamina levels instead of 50% i heard

[torpid cloud]

Dunno about that I didn't test it

But it's pretty easy to stay above 50%

[topaz adder]

stripped down is nuts

great for reapers

[jovial heron]

Key for me is remembering I have it lmao

[main trellis]

Nah

[fast surge]

Nope, but it doesn't have an angle requirement like other sprint dodging

Run face first into gunfire=dodging

[hybrid veldt]

Toxin an rocket is just sooo good

[lucid siren]

Ngl idk why but feels like hivescum recovers stamina a lot faster than other classes even if its the same amount and same triple regen of 12% on curious

[spice cloud]

Might be because of tis but a scratch

[lucid siren]

Yea maybe

[spice cloud]

HS has like the best defensive ability against gunners imo

[lucid siren]

But ye needle with stripped down and run n gun is rly nice

Very few weaps has it its needle, recon lasgun and 2 of the autoguns

So a decent limited blessing

[spice cloud]

But with tis but a scratch u also regen whenever u do get hit unlike the other classes

Plus on kill

[limber cradle]

Scum has the best feeling toughness regen ime

Between stuff like Precision violence, just a scratch, that one 50 percent refill if it breaks

[lucid siren]

Yeah and even stimm supply ult

If u also only have 1 stimm lab applied then u can recast it on cooldown basically so 50% toughness every 15 secs

(Tho u lose fun stuff from lab ofc)

[spice cloud]

That ones sooooooooooo strong

Literally a constant lifesaver

And the cooldown is very low imo

[zenith pagoda]

Still no hotfix?

[mint birch]

Yo anyone with High Havoc experience could tell me what would our gameplay look like, playing Chem, if we are in a group of new players that constantly shuffle between their "tasks" from inexperience ?

For example i know we are supposed to be playing more in the backline and focusing specials/bosses and only Meleing hordes when safe but on my team sometimes my frontline is not there lmao and i have to be the frontline, which is ok until i have like a gap between the Horde and a gunner spawns and i get clapped.

If i die and we get a Twin or double Boss spawn after its pretty much gg cuz im like 70% of our boss dmg also.

I guess what im really asking is: there is something else i could do @ my end? (Ex. Change build or Weapons) or is just a get good together angle?

[vapid jungle]

Get good together

[limber cradle]

The cooldown is stupidly low on a lot

Like street tough or whatever

6 or 8 seconds on that is insane

[zenith pagoda]

Mine is 3.75m too

[brittle sierra]

Play safe in the backline

💀

Even as range Scum I'm fucking diving into that elite spawn the moment I see it

[limber cradle]

I see enemies and I dive enemies

I keep dodging and they can't hit me

[zenith pagoda]

Scum has no line or formation

Scum has drugs

[limber cradle]

Scum just be doing shit

Zoom over here

Kill that guy

Zoom over there

Kill more guys

[mint birch]

Yeah im just parroting advice from a video i saw that makes sense to me if that the most optimal way to play the build

[limber cradle]

Don't think about it too hard

Just kill shit

Like I just

Real shit

Dive everything

Poxxies, ragers, crusher patrol

I'm going in

[mint birch]

Why would you dive a crusher patrol having Chem Pistol though?

[limber cradle]

Fun. Violence.

Kill em faster.

[mint birch]

Hmm, with bonesaw?

[limber cradle]

Still works, not normally my preference tho

[mint birch]

What you usually run ? Devil Claw?

[limber cradle]

Shivs, TAxe, current flavor I like

[blazing oxide]

give hivescum a nerve toxin LMG

[crimson moss]

give hivescum a nerve toxin sprayer

like the helldivers sterilizer but not dogshit

[unique dagger]

monkeys paw curls now enemies also have a toxin sprayer

[stray mulch]

because it only takes like 2 shots each crusher XD

[jovial heron]

May I introduce green flames and toxbomber?

[lucid siren]

yeah elites pretty easy

2 shots of needle and just keep up stacks with bonesaw or whatever weap u like

[jovial heron]

What tax axe build you liking?

[limber cradle]

You'd have to ask me in like 6 or 7 hours when I get home from work

[jovial heron]

NP

[stray mulch]

but yeah 2 shots and a melee for most

[brittle sierra]

Who said this?

Because Psyker and Scum are by far the best classes in the game with no weaknesses in terms of what situations they have a hard time dealing with

They are soo strong that top havoc players sometimes have artificial rules of not allowing anyone to play them to make the run harder 💀

[lucid siren]

yeah only thing i would say is carapace like maulers and crushers need the needle toxin over just melee but thats whatever rly

the amount of DoTs u do to dangerous monsters is great when last alive lol

[stray mulch]

you can just apply toxin and go back to dealing with threats while kiting

[brittle sierra]

The only thing Psyker has above Scum is wave clear

But Psyker is such a broken class to begin with that they literally just destroy the mechanics of the game due to how much CC and cleave they have

[stray mulch]

Psyker honestly in a tier of their own imo

[lucid siren]

yeah when i came back to darktide this week i got into that train mission and was just 2 bots, me and a lvl 1400 psyker and goddamn that bro just burned and zoomed through all enemies like he was the train lol

[brittle sierra]

Fatshark tried to make scum a class that is strong into specialists and bosses but weak into elites due to their lack of CC

Because since they do soo much damage it doesn't matter

[limber cradle]

Death is the best CC

[lucid siren]

yeah i mean only rly noticable if ur alone or last alive

[main trellis]

Its the skill issue really

[pulsar aspen]

https://tenor.com/bOQiM.gif

[jovial heron]

Regenerating instant stagger grenades would like a word

[astral canyon]

Street tough also exists now

Genuinely who the fuck thought scum needed that fucking talent

And forge's bellow too but that one is chill

[limber cradle]

That fact that it's like 8 seconds is insane

That could be a minute cooldown talent

[astral canyon]

I genuinely dont take that talent purely out of spite

[limber cradle]

I don't cause it's fuckin broken

Dumb talent

Goes against class identity

Makes me play worse too

[astral canyon]

I mean

That sounds like not taking it out of spite as well lol

[lucid siren]

what do u mean regenarating grenades?

[jovial heron]

Blackouts

[lucid siren]

oh i missed that when i read lol

i always used chem one so far

[stray mulch]

YEAH

i think blackouts might be the weakest ordinance in the kit but they are pretty damn good

basically infinite

[jovial heron]

https://tenor.com/view/perfectly-balanced-pirates-of-the-caribbean-will-turner-orlando-bloom-the-tang-is-nearly-the-full-width-of-the-blade-gif-7981909405258970422

[stray mulch]

yeah pretty much

[bronze glade]

Ehhh wouldn’t say that.

All the blitzes are very good for their role

[stray mulch]

for what ppl care about in DT cc on a nade isn't really what you are pining for

they all are good at what they do, but still I think the other 2 solve the same issue

making space

while removing threats

even if limited

[jovial heron]

You can’t use general pop desires to dictate game design or pickpocket gonna get patched to provide 100% ammo on poxwalker kill

[stray mulch]

im not gunna delve into the pickpocket argument too deep

[jovial heron]

Lmao

[stray mulch]

ppl who thought it was okay the way it was before are tweaks

[jovial heron]

Yes

You ever telekinetically pickpocket someone from 30 meters away?

[stray mulch]

yeah bro

like i shot the guy from way over there

and got loot

[zenith pagoda]

Zealot Vs scum blitzs

https://tenor.com/view/obamifiy-hydrogen-bomb-vs-coughing-baby-lobotomy-man-gif-10168125853494645417

[astral canyon]

Knives are still pretty strong imo

The issue really is stunstorm and immolation

[bronze glade]

Feels like fatshart doesn’t really know what to do with zealot anymore

[stray mulch]

power creep it

over a bunch of dlc

[bronze glade]

https://tenor.com/view/i-like-the-way-you-think-point-seinfeld-gif-22680763

Fatshart prob

[astral canyon]

Stunstorm just needs a way shorter fuse and an extra charge imo

[vapid jungle]

Or scrap them both

[astral canyon]

Why?

[vapid jungle]

They fucking suck?

[astral canyon]

You could also fix that by buffing them

[vapid jungle]

You could

Why polish a turd

[astral canyon]

?????

[jovial heron]

????

[astral canyon]

Alright so we should just scrap everything in this game that is bad and never bother buffing them

[jovial heron]

Zealot in the old days was king of clutch

I miss those days

[vapid jungle]

If its been useless for two years yea

Try something else

[astral canyon]

Yeah because fatshark hasnt bothered buffing them

Its not because the blitzes are fundamentally useless their numbers just fucking suck

[vapid jungle]

They are a thematic and numerical failure

[unreal stirrup]

tbf stunstorm was really good but people slept on it until scum released

[astral canyon]

????

[unreal stirrup]

knife is just a lot of utility

[stray mulch]

yes but no

[astral canyon]

The fuse timer sucks imo

It makes them really awkward to use in my experience

If they were like half a second it would feel a lot better

[zenith pagoda]

Knife is okay but it's very underwhelming, it has a niche for animation cancelling and working with flamer

[unreal stirrup]

I just found gold

[limber cradle]

Crippled hive scum huh

[unreal stirrup]

I was fucking with him until bro said vet and scum got nerfed

[limber cradle]

I do wish the game would stop running worse every update

[sharp drum]

I mean vet did get nerfed VOC has got cooldown increase after cooldown increase. Remember when you could spam VOC on hunting grounds missions?

and hivescum technically got a nerf to the ranged architype which is crazy because the ranged one wasn't even the good scum build on H40

[main trellis]

Oh it was good… just not broken like tox crit melee

Which got buffed

[unreal stirrup]

scum got mega buffed

all the fucking build have 1-2 less tax node

vet voc nerf barely matter unless you spam it every single time it up

exe got mega fucking buffed even though maintaining it was piss easy after the tree change

[torpid cloud]

I need to try to make a ranged scum again sometime

[unreal stirrup]

pickpocket nerf is fucking nothing

[torpid cloud]

Too much fun with rampage rn tho

[unreal stirrup]

especially in havoc

[torpid cloud]

Below havok pickpocket node was kinda dead even before the nerf
Director isn't spawning shit

[main trellis]

[sharp drum]

I never said it was build ruining or anything but I'm just wondering why it exists? I feel like making it so only ranged attacks could proc it would have been better since it would allow you to run out of ammo if you got unlucky with kill steals.

it doesn't effect melee scum at all which is really funny

[unreal stirrup]

the problem is its actually fucking impossible to run out of ammo

💀

it also doesn't affect ranged scum since guess what

elite and specialist is common

and it take less than 2 seconds to mog them with melee

what did scum get in return?

[torpid cloud]

Whenever I feel like leveling a class again (I do actually kinda enjoy it cause I don't have the best stuff then) getting up to there is always boring to me
I need at least havok to feel alive

[unreal stirrup]

sample collector is free

1-2 less tax node on most build

fucking splash damage

1 more dodge for zero reason

scum

got

mega

buffed

[torpid cloud]

By the way the extra dodge is omega unnecessary
Scum was already feeling untouchable. Especially if you took jittery

[jovial heron]

Street tough

[unreal stirrup]

you already don't need jitter

[torpid cloud]

I just added that as a bonus

[unreal stirrup]

its already a trap pick anyway

[jovial heron]

Extra damage scaling with crit chance

[unreal stirrup]

yeah this one too

[torpid cloud]

Didnt we have that already

The damage for crit chance one

Or am I stupid

[jovial heron]

Channeled devastation was new

[charred bluff]

Why do people use so many Stamina curios on Hive? (chem)

[charred bluff]

aaaah, thanks!

[jovial heron]

It’s also partly that the way hivescum is built they are not super tanky. It’s more about not getting hit in the first place so toughness and health curios are a bit more debatable.

[astral canyon]

Someone pull up the clip of scum tanking a crusher overhead

[verbal dew]

I forgot to record one on havoc (just getting downed instead of dying outright)

[stray mulch]

Because it's the good stuff!

[verbal dew]

but ye rampage scum with some health lets you tank

[stray mulch]

Health isn't as important to tanking hits

It's mostly toughness

[verbal dew]

it is when it comes to overheads and bursters

[stray mulch]

since DR works on both Toughness and Health, but TDR only works on Touhness, topughness has prio and probably is the only thing you really need to worry about

less total toughness means more bleed through happens on back ot back hits

[verbal dew]

scum has toughness replenish up the ass so health is more important in havoc at least, which is where the tanking is nicest

[bronze glade]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1444017590748975125/1461399148581490863/371AC71.MP4?ex=69c56104&is=69c40f84&hm=b33fc277dbe46576287c01ac2b1792e55948da24df66718b05b1e00447a26fe0&

[stray mulch]

still would be toughness

[verbal dew]

it's not like I forgo TDR tho, health just scales better in havoc

[stray mulch]

if you have toughness regen out the ass having more total toughness means more toughenss generated

more toughness in total means less damage taken to hp

[astral canyon]

Thx

[verbal dew]

I don't need to argue what I know works in havoc

[stray mulch]

i mean you aren't the only person who knows what works in havoc

.>

just assuming

[zenith pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/scratch-wound-injury-knight-monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-gif-11190303

[jovial heron]

Do it again on havoc with no health buff

[bronze glade]

No u

[jovial heron]

https://tenor.com/view/samuel-l-jackson-pulp-fiction-jules-i-thought-so-i-knew-it-gif-17706646

[bronze glade]

lol I’m not downloading solo play just to satisfy your curiosity. Do it yourself.

[jovial heron]

I am not curious. You’d die in one crusher swing

[bronze glade]

Maybe (a) don’t eat an overhead on h40 and (b) don’t be an idiot with curio choices

[jovial heron]

The video was posted in response to me saying “hive scum are more about avoiding damage than tanking damage which is why so many run a lot of stamina curios”

[bronze glade]

The video was posted in response to someone asking me to post it. Idc about the context

[jovial heron]

https://tenor.com/view/cute-adorable-duckling-haha-classic-gif-17283485

[bronze glade]

If you want to build for stamina go for it, you’ll just need to play accordingly

[stray mulch]

so we challenge every overhead with a bonesaw overhead

gotchya

[bronze glade]

https://tenor.com/view/darksouls-gif-20991094

[amber sapphire]

is cheap shots any good on uzis? Since they seem to do a small stagger pretty much all the time on everything outside of ogryn - mutants

[bronze glade]

No

Not enough stagger, not enough damage

[keen bridge]

Question is taking the toughness buff for your stims really that bad? Every time I look up recommendations everyone is saying it's the single worst choice you could ever make but I dunno 50% toughness replenishment boost sounds pretty good

I already have the strength tree maxed out and I already have enough attack speed buffs

And I use the stim crate so ... cooldown reduction is pretty useless

[manic wolf]

Scum is already a machine that turns violence and drugs into toughness

[astral canyon]

It was the worst tree by far on scum release

[bronze glade]

Better now

[astral canyon]

It got a rework somewhat recently

I'd still say its the worst of the bunch but not as much of a gap

[keen bridge]

Good enough for me. I tried the attack speed tree but it didn't really feel impactful with my other attack speed buffs on top of it tbh

[mighty belfry]

It's not as simple as that tbh

Health does have its place on this class because it's toughness retention is particularly good. Health is nice for the stuff toughness doesn't do anything about

And there's quite a few things

That do not care about toughness

And curio returns on toughness in havoc

Are not very good.

Tis what I mean by this class not really having a curio meta

Because all curios (except wounds) are pretty beneficial in their own way for scum

[stray mulch]

wasn't really saying anything against health having a place in scum builds

dude was saying its more importnat to have health than toughness BECAUSE you have a ton of toughness generation

if either of them would be more important i would hazard the guess its the one you can outwardly use said generation on

the one in most cases that will be stopping you from going down immidiatley after every hit, and the same one that might save you past getting hit by the piercing damage with more hits.

[mighty belfry]

You'd be surprised. Becaue of how bad toughness returns actually are for Havoc, toughness honestly, isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't really add as much padding as I'd like it to for the investment.

It's why I usually don't focus on maxing toughness as much as I first did when I started playing this class

Because while I don't notice the toughness as much

I definitely notice when I'm way lower health after a burster

Or the psyker hitting every fucking barrel by me

[stray mulch]

im not advocating for maxing either tbh

but realistically

one is a stop gap to the other

[manic wolf]

x1 stam, x1 HP, x1 TGH

Ez

[stray mulch]

DR and TDR also matter more with your toughness value

[mighty belfry]

I've been running two hp one Stam and seeing how that fares

I like it

[stray mulch]

if you are taking HP over toughness and are still taking TDR what is the point?

[clear tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-balanced-gif-3226445978144001245

[manic wolf]

If Melk would actually shit out another 21% HP curio, I would consider that too, but alas, the dude is tighter than a nun's prison wallet

[stray mulch]

i wouldnt mind that tbh

[mighty belfry]

Because then it makes the toughness you do have more sturdy

[stray mulch]

and thus any extra you'd get

[mighty belfry]

It's not that toughness ain't important

Its that the extra toughness you do get

Isn't a lot

And it doesn't scale very well as the debuffs come in

[stray mulch]

the base values for each in h40 are 80 toughness and 97hp before scaling your curios

[mighty belfry]

HP returns on curios are better because it's a percentage based debuff

As opposed to toughness which is a flat number debuff

Which really hurts returns on curios

That's why you can get to over 200 health in h40

While the most you're ever getting for toughness is like... in the 130ish range if you completely invest in it

[stray mulch]

so if you went 3 you'd have 150hp, and with3 toughness curios you'd have 121 toughness

[low harbor]

HP curios are better than people think
Toughness curios are not as good as people think

Toughness is good, but u need a pretty significant investment into it to make significant difference

[stray mulch]

i think both sides value one more than the other when the difference in value are both a bit negligable and very subjective

[low harbor]

Not rly

Hive scum, zealot and psyker have 80 toughness in havoc scaling

10% toughness will only get u 8 more toughness

That’s not even 1 shot from gunner

Health directly counters bullshit

[stray mulch]

okay but you forget that the flat value on toughness only matters when you have it. because the % of your total is where the bleed over happens

[low harbor]

Yes and most classes replenish enough toughness to counter the rate at which their toughness goes down

Just by default

[stray mulch]

so when you generate the toughness you want that number to be bigger so DR can do it's math leaving you with a bigger percentile

usually youdo not die to 1 hit

its multiple

[low harbor]

lol burster 1 tap

[mighty belfry]

No one's forgetting that. It's just far more avoidable because this class can regen toughness in the midst of combat

[stray mulch]

and you are more likely to die to multiple due to the % bleeding over

extra Hp can't save you just as much as toughness would, especially because you are using 2 different damage reductions

[mighty belfry]

I feel like this is a

[stray mulch]

it has less cases where its the only thing being hit

[low harbor]

If u run 49% extra toughness then it is actually a significant difference from base

[mighty belfry]

"Don't knock it til you try it scenario"

[stray mulch]

toughness ALWAYS comes first unless peirced

[mighty belfry]

You're on the class that breaks a lot of conventions in combat

[low harbor]

Nah this is not a hive scum specific case

[stray mulch]

from 80 to 120 is a good bit of difference

[low harbor]

Every class benefits from hp

[manic wolf]

Also, you know, getting toughness back.. FROM BEING FUCKING SHOT AT!

[mighty belfry]

Which, arguing that toughness is valuable for that reason is valid

But also, arguing it isn't that important because it means you have an incredible form of toughness retention on top of getting it per melee attack

[manic wolf]

Oh i wasnt playing devils advocate there, more that if you can get it back from being tagged by some shitter with a lasgun, you've already got pretty solid TGH economy

[mighty belfry]

Is also valid

[low harbor]

What is kuro even arguing here

3x toughness the go-to?

Or smth else

[manic wolf]

I dont think anyone else gets TGH from being domed do they?

[low harbor]

I’m confused

[mighty belfry]

Someone said health investment is more important

[low harbor]

I mean yea it is

[mighty belfry]

Which, I mean

[low harbor]

Health is far better than people think

[stray mulch]

that hp shoudln't realistically be valued higher than toughness

it's a stop gap

[mighty belfry]

I kinda pioneered fatscum so I can't disagree lol

[low harbor]

But it is tho

[manic wolf]

It should be

[stray mulch]

today i will conduct another math experiment

[manic wolf]

One resource you get back all the time, one is finite (until you reach medicae)

[low harbor]

Health straight up is a bigger difference to surviving against bullshit

[stray mulch]

because we like to argue things that involve numbers without using them

same with the crit convo

[manic wolf]

You can throw all the numbers about you like, we're talking in practical terms. This isnt a damage calculation, this is about how things play out in game

[stray mulch]

just needs a bit of math, and maybe ill even disprove my point

[low harbor]

21% health is 31.5~63 extra health depending on the class
17% toughness is at best 20 extra toughness (~14 for most classes) in havoc

[manic wolf]

You are at somepoint going to eat bullshit, better to survive it than to be nuked because you didnt have enough HP

[stray mulch]

for practical use, if you are generating more toughness it should be more valuable, because of DR and TDR

[low harbor]

You have to be smoking funny crack to think 14 toughness is better than 31 health

[stray mulch]

in the most practical of cases you WANT to take LESS damage to your health

[manic wolf]

As Goblin said earlier. The stuff most likely to be a run-ender doesnt care about your toughness

[stray mulch]

not have more HEALTH and take the same damage

[stray mulch]

nor hp, it cares about your positioning and skill

tf

[low harbor]

Toughness is fundamentally a DR mechanic and all classes by default can sustain toughness well just off talents alone, without additional toughness curios

The biggest difference toughness makes is that ur less likely to be fucked over by ranged units when reviving people

[verbal dew]

I will post the only relevant clip I have, casually eating a sniper shot

[manic wolf]

Are we playing the same game? "Just dont get hit" doesnt work in practice as much as you can cope about it doing so. You can mitigate the chances of catastrophic bullshit occuring, but you can never entirely prevent it

[low harbor]

Because u almost always have stagger tools to revive people in melee

But reviving vs ranged is way harder

[stray mulch]

im just going to ask a few questions real quick

[verbal dew]

I wish I had clips of eating 3 bursters in a row

[manic wolf]

Or being trappered through the floor/ceiling/wall

[stray mulch]

in the events that you are attacking or doing anything that generates toughness, what do you think will help you take more hits? Hp specifically or Toughness Specifically?

[low harbor]

If it’s mixed horde, hp

[mighty belfry]

Also

Not the biggest deal

[stray mulch]

say you get 1 hit in between 2 on yourself

[low harbor]

If it’s boss units (except pack master) block cost

[mighty belfry]

But at least with Rampage active

You can take a h40 overhead and not instantly die

[verbal dew]

assuming no prior corruption

[mighty belfry]

Which is surprisingly kind of useful if you also run Forge's

[stray mulch]

with just the 12% precision violence proc

[mighty belfry]

With more health

[low harbor]

Rager mixed horde. Health is better than toughness

[manic wolf]

As Path said, HP, because you're almost never just fighting trash in higher settings

[low harbor]

Mauler & crusher, neither rly matter

[mighty belfry]

But I believe you have to hit at least 150 hp for the breakpoint there.

[stray mulch]

but you are all sure that ISN'T just an assumption

[low harbor]

I like the new boss a lot but he highkey kinda op

[stray mulch]

because a lot of yall like to go off of feels

[low harbor]

His armored hound also pretty op lol

[stray mulch]

gotta be clear exactly how and why it would be better

[low harbor]

2.2k hp, carapace

[stray mulch]

because in instances where you are taking consecutive hits and still generating toughness i still hazard the guess that toughness matters more there

we can take the mixxed horde comment then and then ill have yall set a scenario

because the numbers will be fun

[manic wolf]

Because in the event you're taking hits, you're taking HP damage, the odd hit here and there doesnt make any difference because your toughness will cover that anyway, if you're taking consecutive hits, you're taking notable HP damage, so more HP = you'll have longer to get your shit back in hand.

[mighty belfry]

I guess also street tough (ew)

[stray mulch]

?

[low harbor]

Extra hp = u leave with more hp from each rager mixed horde where u might take chip damage

Because toughness is fundamentally a DR mechanic, the difference between 80 and 120 vs a rager mixed horde isn’t that significant because:

1. if you fuck up you’ll just snowball into getting downed regardless
2. If you don’t fuck up, you could still take minor chip damage (which is mitigated based on % of your toughness, which every class can replenish well, even tho some are better than others at this), where HP is just better
3. If you do it perfect, u take no chip damage and neither will rly matter

[manic wolf]

I think it was pretty clear. If you struggle with reading comprehension, thats not my issue

[low harbor]

It’s not uncommon to take somewhere like 3~8 chip damage from ragers in this game

[stray mulch]

okay lets assume we will be taking 3 rager hits in a fight with no regen period outside of our percision strikes

[low harbor]

+31.5~63 health means that chip matters significantly less

Whereas toughness makes not nearly as much of a difference

-8 hp on a 150hp means ur still live and kicking

-8hp on a 105hp means u can kiss urself goodbye the next time u get fucked by a silent burster

[stray mulch]

anyone got a kuli link? Do they have a guide on enemy base damages?

[low harbor]

Yea just search it up

[mighty belfry]

Your health is way more impactful in that situation

The smaller amount of toughness you have to slightly circumvent the health damage won't be as impactful as just having far more health in the first place

[stray mulch]

yeah cant find it

1st thing you see is redit and no kuli link

[low harbor]

Search harder

[stray mulch]

ty for being so smart

[mighty belfry]

And this is attributed again to toughness returns also just not being very good comparatively to health returns on bonuses

[verbal dew]

you can find all kuli stuff through links on any of their guides

so just find one and you find them all

[low harbor]

Ty ik i am

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

[mighty belfry]

You know what

[manic wolf]

Awh, you shouldnt have told him, it would have been funnier that way

[mighty belfry]

I've been trying different curio setups

[brittle sierra]

No I don't know who what is

[low harbor]

I now run 49% toughness, 36% hp and max gunner resist

Only thing I miss is better stamina management

[mighty belfry]

I'm gonna go back to fatscum tonight

I miss being able to take poxbursters and not feel like I'm going to die to a poxwalker's fart

[stray mulch]

can run these through all the modifyers but in the events you are taking hits what will be making a variable, are we getting back toughness or no?

[verbal dew]

I've been going back and picking at least 2 gunner resists on all classes now

[low harbor]

U can just test with 1v6 rager on exe stance vet

[stray mulch]

nah

[low harbor]

Run it like 10 times and see what ur avg chip damage is like

[mighty belfry]

I run three gunner resists with hp scum

Since that's the thing I wanna ward off the most

[stray mulch]

the same way i could have sat here and believed yall that 5% crit was more damage than 10% melee over 50%

[low harbor]

In live it’s gonna be less because teammates’ slots will divert them to not surrounding u

[stray mulch]

it wont be helpful to just listen to the masses just say something without being able to prove it

that convo i will hold over heads because it has to be done

[low harbor]

I mean it is prob the closest thing u can get to an accurate test lol

[mighty belfry]

Calculations don't mean anything. Just try it

[low harbor]

U get back 10% per second

And u have stun immune to actually fight them

[stray mulch]

only when you have the the regen proc

and it's slower

we should know this since we play havoc

[low harbor]

Stance gives u 10%/s which is kinda close to combat avg outside of kills

[stray mulch]

false

[low harbor]

It might even be higher than combat avg outside of kills

[mighty belfry]

I'm pretty sure some people here thought I was unironically gaslighting when I first mentioned having a lot of health being good for havoc

And it turns out

People actually liked it

🙀

[stray mulch]

idk unironically yall said that the 5% crit was better. No one tried to prove it or run any numbers

someone just said t was and yall said yeah

[low harbor]

I never said that

I wasn’t even here

[mighty belfry]

I think the difference between 5% crit and 10% melee damage

[stray mulch]

point is it's hard believing ppl here

frfr

[mighty belfry]

Is negligible at best

[low harbor]

10% melee damage is better for hive scum’s best melee weapon (it’s the fucking Rashad again)

[stray mulch]

thinking and knowing

[low harbor]

So that’s pretty much all that matters

[stray mulch]

past 50% with ANY amount of modifyer would have to be lower than a flat increase on the damage that would affect the same modifyer

[low harbor]

I can’t wait for next class release and their best melee weapon Rashad, their best ranged weapon Vraks 5

Again

[stray mulch]

just know maths someone could say this

and i had to show it lmao

[vapid jungle]

The more crit you have the less valuable each additional percent chance is

[verbal dew]

you telling me I wasn't the only one to steal your builds? I thought I was special

[stray mulch]

and i had to repeat that multiple times

[mighty belfry]

I saw someone in the blue maxing health in havoc a few times before this season

[stray mulch]

this is why just saying hp is better doesn;t help

[mighty belfry]

But we're actually throwing reasons out here.

[stray mulch]

i mean so was i

[mighty belfry]

Its not something calculations can fully prove because its something you actively have to notice ingame.

[stray mulch]

we just arent agreeing

if you are generating toughness in between taking hits it has just as much or even more value as hp

we want to speak of variables for hp but are legit ignoring some for toughness

[mighty belfry]

The humble silent poxburster.

[verbal dew]

before release I wished scum would make brauto actually better since the class would like focus on body shots or something

alas

[mighty belfry]

The humble sniper who shoots you but hasn't even aimed their laser

Barrels

Hell pox gas even

[manic wolf]

No bullshit happens in darktide, its only skill issue

https://tenor.com/view/1984-gif-19260546

[mighty belfry]

Because that shit just melts your toughness regardless of how much you have

[stray mulch]

i mean just saying bullshit happens doesnt mean hp more valid

ngl

bs happens and we still generate toughness

got a whole talent for that

[mighty belfry]

There's just a lot of things that ignore toughness that are also just, not as easily preventable

[manic wolf]

Thats exactly what it means, yes.

[stray mulch]

.>

[manic wolf]

I give up, this is playing chess with pigeons territory, at the end of the day they're gonna squark, shit all over the board and knock all the pieces off it anyway

[verbal dew]

the bs that matters eat toughness for breakfast

[stray mulch]

hp too when you dont have enough toughness

we gunna skip past that?

[mighty belfry]

Those things don't care about your toughness!!!

[stray mulch]

idk rager hordes do

, walkers, and most attacks in game

most ranged hits

bombs

fire

most things do

but prep for the few that dont

[verbal dew]

ye

[mighty belfry]

Yes true.

But those things

[stray mulch]

and make it a higher priority?

[oblique basin]

How it felt to combine combat axe with rampage

[mighty belfry]

Are far more avoidable

[stray mulch]

.>

ngl statistically

[mighty belfry]

Toughness isn't going to do anything about the burster that launched itself 90 degrees around a corner

[stray mulch]

there are more pox walkers in game than you will ever run into ragers

[vapid jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/blender-org-blender-modeling-gif-26959889

[mighty belfry]

Yeah. And those in practice are way easier to deal with

[stray mulch]

and ragers, and all the shooters and things that hit your toughness are far more likely to actually do so than anything going through hp

because of sheer numbers

what is that argument?

[mighty belfry]

That toughness damage even at its lowest is still circumventable while the scenarios presented in favor of having more health because those scenarios sometimes are just utterly unavoidable at times

[stray mulch]

far more avoidable =/= less likely to be an issue or happen, especially not when the cases they happen in are more frequent

[hybrid veldt]

vc outage

[mighty belfry]

It is for me.

[stray mulch]

not how probability works

feel tide is weird

[mighty belfry]

It's not feeltide when I can actively tell the extra health is mattering far more for me.

[stray mulch]

it's a diff thing if yall just say things feel nicer

i'll let that rock

[mighty belfry]

Holy shit.

It's not just feels dude

[stray mulch]

well its not numbers

[mighty belfry]

You've been presented many things pointing towards that not being the case

It's not just about numbers

[stray mulch]

many opinions

[verbal dew]

it's us experiencing being able to live way more bs thrown at us

[mighty belfry]

Opinions?

[verbal dew]

because that's what havoc does

[mighty belfry]

So me having

More health

After a sniper shoots me

Is an opinion?

[manic wolf]

Chess. Pigeon. Shit all over the board.

[verbal dew]

[stray mulch]

no but this very much is

and the cases you try to portray as evidence as something working in fact

doesn't help the case

[mighty belfry]

It does.

That's why everyone heres been echoing the same thing.

[low harbor]

Ok my math could be wrong here but this just basic illustration

Let’s say vet, no TDR active, 95 base toughness (pretty common)

3 rager attacks
First attack removes 36x1.5 = 54 toughness, now 41 left (then stance recovers 10% so now 41+9.5 =50.5)
Second attack, toughness DR kicks in, toughness eats 54x(50.5/95) =28.705, health takes 36x(1-(50.5/95)) =16.863, then stance recovers 10% so now ~31.295 toughness
Third attack, toughness eats 54x(31.295/95) =17.789, health takes 36x(1-(31.295/95)) =24.141

So in total, 41 health damage taken out of 97.5 health, which is ~42% gone

If u had +21% health, this would be ~31.8% gone

If u had +17% toughness (so 111.15), this would be 13.89 health gone on 2nd hit, and 21 health gone on 3rd hit, which would be 35.8% of health gone

Now, consider that vet is the highest base toughness & lowest health class in havoc (best case for toughness, worst case for health), and health still wins out over toughness in this kind of chip damage test (albeit small)

[stray mulch]

it's ancedotal at best

[mighty belfry]

It's not a feel thing

There's actual reason my dude

[verbal dew]

in your oPiNiOn

[mighty belfry]

And now this is just sounding like a bad faith argument

[low harbor]

I just showed the math

In the best case for toughness and worst case for health

Health wins

On another class with higher hp and lower toughness, health will only pull ahead more

Not to mention health directly countering bullshit

[stray mulch]

how are you starting at no TDR and having it randomly kick in?

[low harbor]

The only case I think toughness genuinely wins over health all the time is martyrdom zealots

[low harbor]

No TDR = no modification to the amount of toughness damage taken

rager combo 36 damage with 1.5x toughness multiplier

So on health it does 36, on toughness it does 54

[vapid jungle]

How realistic is it to have no tdr in game

[stray mulch]

.>

[low harbor]

This is just simplified calculations

If u want to add TDR u can calculate it urself

I’m just lazy

[stray mulch]

again

[verbal dew]

most of us wouldn't even do calcs so still props

[stray mulch]

why no (t)dr on 1st hit?

[low harbor]

Wdym no DR

[vapid jungle]

Reminiscent of another exhausting toughness/stam debate

[low harbor]

First hit 0 health damage because all damage is on toughness

Health damage is only for 2nd and 3rd hit

This is calculating 3 attacks

Only 2nd and 3rd will have toughness bleed through damage

[low harbor]

When a silent burster hits u for 100 damage (50 corruption at center) and u have no extra health (97.5 health) so u instantly die (because 50 > 97.5/2), it will make a massive fucking difference lol

[limber cradle]

Huge agree

[mighty belfry]

And even if you have one hp perk to survive the blast

Having that little health afterwards?

Yeah I'd be significantly more worried that I'd be going down at that point

[limber cradle]

With less than optimal toughness

[mighty belfry]

Because now any form of chip is downing you at that point

Regardless of how much toughness you have.

It would be different if the things that didn't care about your toughness weren't utter bullshit at times

But. Playing this game enough, you tend to realize, they are.

[dim moth]

sniper audio queues being client side so if you just so happen to be standing behind the guy they're shooting at you get zero warning :)

[vapid jungle]

Part of the cue is only given to the target iirc

[mighty belfry]

I've been hit with that even if the sniper is targeting me

Because it's happened when I'm the last one alive lmaoo

[vapid jungle]

If there's a shooting gallery don't dodge near one a other

[wind hamlet]

i want to be red

[low harbor]

Talk more

[mighty belfry]

Speak. SPEAK. And thou shalt be blessed by the Emperor's gift.

[wind hamlet]

i am speaking

[mighty belfry]

More!

[wind hamlet]

bless the emperor

i tried hive scum first but im a new player

moved to arbites

does this game have prestiges like space marnine 2?

help me emperor to get red

i love t his game

is this enough
?

[stray mulch]

btw if the dr being considered is iron will the math is wrong

but i am currently running the calc to confirm something

also need to confirm where the dr is coming from just in case

[low harbor]

if iron will is in play, yea
but this is also just calculating a baseline extreme case

because vet's toughness replenishment is much higher than 10%/s in combat

[stray mulch]

the dr needs to be on or off

[low harbor]

I calculated all DR effects off, just toughness baseline

if u involve TDR like iron will then it'll change things ofc

the more variables u add the more complex it gets

[stray mulch]

if it was considering it then all calc must be with it off if toughness is 71 or less or 83 or less

okay so then

the 50.5/95 value used in your calculation

where are those numbers related from?

[low harbor]

first hit removes 54
95 - 54 = 41 remaining
stance recover 10%/s, so +9.5
41+9.5 = 50.5 remaining
so 2nd hit calculates from 50.5/95

[stray mulch]

okay and lastly

the game works in whole numbers iirc

[low harbor]

this 10%/s is meant to simulate a basic level of toughness replenishment

[stray mulch]

rounding down correct?

[low harbor]

nope

decimals are always calculated

[stray mulch]

if no then this makes it easier

im trying to make sense ofaall that was said

[low harbor]

21% health is simply better than 17% toughness in a 1-to-1 comparison most of the time

[stray mulch]

Ok my math could be wrong here but this just basic illustration

Let’s say vet, no TDR active, 95 base toughness (pretty common)

3 rager attacks
First attack removes 36x1.5 = 54 toughness, now 41 left (then stance recovers 10% so now 41+9.5 =50.5)
Second attack, toughness DR kicks in, toughness eats 54x(50.5/95) =28.705, health takes 36x(1-(50.5/95)) =16.863, then stance recovers 10% so now ~31.295 toughness
Third attack, toughness eats 54x(31.295/95) =17.789, health takes 36x(1-(31.295/95)) =24.141

So in total, 41 health damage taken out of 97.5 health, which is ~42% gone

If u had +21% health, this would be ~31.8% gone

If u had +17% toughness (so 111.15), this would be 13.89 health gone on 2nd hit, and 21 health gone on 3rd hit, which would be 35.8% of health gone

Now, consider that vet is the highest base toughness & lowest health class in havoc (best case for toughness, worst case for health), and health still wins out over toughness in this kind of chip damage test (albeit small)

this is waht you posted

and the toughness dr kicks i part has to make sense

again i need to know for certain it was not considered

[low harbor]

"toughness DR kicks in"
as in, below 100% of max toughness, toughness behaves as %DR mechanic based on the % of toughness u have over total toughness

that's what it means

toughness is a DR mechanic vs melee after all

[stray mulch]

ty

[low harbor]

also in a live game with TDR and other DR-related mechanics active, the calculation is incredibly complex

[stray mulch]

they are variables

its all algebra

[low harbor]

like for one, most people don't know about dogpile DR being a thing (the more slots u have filled, the less melee dmg each slotted enemy does to u)

[stray mulch]

it will take a while but if it proves me wrong at least it did so while i was doing maths

[low harbor]

yes but u will be looking at a very long calculation

[stray mulch]

which i love

it's what i do

[low harbor]

generally speaking, on a 1-vs-1 case, 21% health is better than 17% toughness

+%toughness is good if u stack a lot of it but u should pretty much always get some +%health

[stray mulch]

this was a small point i was trying to make

but

i still need to know something given the info

[low harbor]

having no +%health is like not having insurance and trying to go through strait of hormuz rn

u could be fine

but do u rly wanna risk it

[stray mulch]

given street tough exists

yes

unless the math tells me im dumb af

just waiting

[low harbor]

what's street tough supposed to do on silent bursters again

[stray mulch]

being proven wrong here would be good for me more than likely tbh

[brittle sierra]

Health this toughness that

Where are my wound Scums at???

[stray mulch]

all the other small melee

[alpine orchid]

On the ground

[low harbor]

street tough is best vs rager/hound

[stray mulch]

i found 1 error

well maybe

50.5/95 = 0.5315

0.5315 - 1 = 0.4685

oh wait

its an error on my reading the passage

ignore

[low harbor]

u forgot health dmg is 36, not 54

[stray mulch]

idk why my eyes skipped past the comma

and went straight to the parentheses

wait

yeah

i might just have to line it out for my mental to break it down

more work

i think this part is still confusing me: Second attack, toughness DR kicks in, toughness eats 54x(50.5/95) =28.705

why does that equation make sense after we got back to the 50.5

the 28.705 does do any thing here?

[low harbor]

28.705 is then removed from 50.5 for the 3rd attack

for the 2nd attack, calculate based on 50.5/95
for the 3rd attack, calculate based on (50.5-28.705+9.5)/95

the 2nd attack damages health, but also toughness

[stray mulch]

so for ragers it's 36x 3 for the combo right

36 x 1.5 = 54

if every hit is 54, why exactly are we reducing 54 to get 28.705 if the 2nd hit is hitting a shield at 50.5 toughness. 50.5 toughness is 53.15% of the 95

the damage that gets through is based on the remaining of the toughness when it got hit correct?

so then the 28 is actually health damage right?

the 36 value is for what [36x (1-(50.5/95))]

54 to 95 > 41 > 41 + 9.5 = 50.5

50.5 - 54 = -3.5 but this doesnt go to hp, just sets toughness to 0 if I'm not mistaking?

the equation on this line ends at the 28 damage right?

[low harbor]

not every hit is 54
first hit, 100% toughness (all dmg is on toughness), so -54 toughness
second hit, 53.1% toughness (53.1% dmg is on toughness, 46.8% dmg is on health), so -28.7 toughness

[mighty belfry]

I love losing around 1/5th of my health to a barrel I couldn't see

[low harbor]

the less toughness u have, the less dmg is dealt to toughness (and more is dealt to health)

[stray mulch]

oh you were calculating thenegative toughness?

it was written as a positive and stumped me

[low harbor]

"toughness eats X"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396860171541807105/1232138126441582642/mfw_deadass.gif

[real python]

whats the single target optimal attack pattern on shivs? spam heavies or reset after H1 to get the double shiv bonus

[low harbor]

depends on enemy composition

mixed horde, do both situationally

pure single target, heavy spam

[real python]

[mighty belfry]

I actually think overhead heavy light might actually inch forward a little better based on the enemy being hit

[low harbor]

also my math could just be wrong

[mighty belfry]

Since the heavy + light chain resets so quickly

[real python]

im trying to be lazy and save some clicking and trying to see if i can something on skittarius working. my forearm hurts

[low harbor]

maybe I got the toughness application wrong

lol

[stray mulch]

i was under the impression the less toughness you have the more damage gets through, not toughness itself taking less damage

ie at 50% toughness you take 50% of the hit

but it's not supposed to stop you from taking a full hit to the toughness itself [assumed]

[low harbor]

yea I prob got that wrong

[stray mulch]

under that assumption was why i was making my argument

toughness will eat the damage until it depletes

it doesn't get more resilient the lower it gets

[low harbor]

yea it was wrong

toughness dmg stays same

I did that outside so prob got smth wrong

lemme recalculate

[stray mulch]

the numbers up till the 2nd hit is right for health damage if we ignore the rest of that line

i got 28.674 vs 28.705 but that's because of how many numbers used past the decimal

so after the 2nd hit you would actually be at 9.5 toughness (same 10%) following the same variable for the third and final hit

and given the remainder and the % of the shield you'd take -5.4 damage from the last hit

which is 48.6

[compact oyster]

Path not so good at meth

[stray mulch]

total would be 77.3 damage to hp

[low harbor]

first hit -54t (9.5t + 41t, so 50.5t for next hit), 0 health dmg
second hit -54t (9.5t + -3.5t, so 6t for next hit), health dmg = 36x(1-(50.5/95)) = 16.86
third hit -54t (0t left after), health dmg = 36x(1-(6/95)) = 33.726
total ~50.59 health dmg (51.88% health gone)

with +21% health, this is ~39.22% health gone

with +17% toughness so 111.15t total
first hit -54t (11.115t + 57.15t, so 68.265t for next hit), 0 health dmg
second hit -54t (11.115t + 14.265t, so 25.38t for next hit), health dmg = 36x(1-(68.265/111.15) = 13.89
third hit -54t (0t left after), health dmg = 36x(1-(25.38/111.15)) = 27.78
total 41.67 health dmg (~42.74% health gone)

[low harbor]

ya I don't do drugs

[stray mulch]

if 54 damage hits a 50.5 toughness shield im sure its 0 extra to hp but the damage dealt to hp would be 28.7 or close to your calc

[real python]

you're missing out

[stray mulch]

Toughness in Darktide acts as a protective shield covering your HP, absorbing 100% of ranged damage while active. It regenerates near teammates (Coherency) or through class talents. Melee damage "bleeds through" based on missing toughness percentage; if you are at 50% toughness, you take 50% of the melee damage to your health.

ai summary