hivescum-class

[sturdy linden]

I'd say putting shield on the same tier as picks is a real stretch but I'd allow it if you keep Havoc in mind. Paul though...

[sonic pumice]

Paul is solid but NEVER above picks

shield has drawbacks that make it useful on coordinated teams but not as self piloting as picks

[jaunty coral]

im addicted to knife (old knife) and stimm supply build.
ive tried rampage with it, and its fun too, idk if its technically better, but man. throwing out a low cd stimm supply with str and cd, and pumping it off cd super fast with like 80% crit is super fun, and i tend to top damage charts in havoc, but i think thats the toxin/needle pistol doing a lot of work?

Is my build sensible? few things ive considered, should i be going down to "Toxin Mania"? Is coated weapony even worth it? Should i be picking up HV with HC, or maybe the 25% weakspot node?

I use MK III knife with reposte/uncanny and need pistol (i actually go back and forth between the models of knife)

[sonic pumice]

als in the same tier as the folding shovels (and the og shovels even lower GOOD LORD!)

[tranquil fjord]

i would usually take quick and deadly (top) over nimble, and then the extra chem dep stack over coated weaponry

but its a preference thing

[jaunty coral]

ive thought about the extra stack, but find my crit is pretty high, ive also considered dropping the 5% crit aura for 10% melee.

drop nimble? nimble is non negotiable IMO but what would i take instead? i have to path through that anyway ya?

you mean jittery?

[tranquil fjord]

yeah jittery

[jaunty coral]

i do also love jittery, but know it can be dropped

is quick and deadly noticeable increase in dmg and has good uptime?

i know i can play better and not need jittery]

but it feels really good

i do like the idea of coated weaponry, im just not sure how effective it is in practice

the base dmg for # of toxin enemies tho sounds interesting, is that not good?

[tranquil fjord]

most things are already dead when toxin is applied imo

id only take the talent with bonesaw

[tranquil fjord]

if coated weaponry is the means of applying toxin

[exotic temple]

Coated is nice when you can throw a couple throwing knives into a crusher and keep the stacks up

Or needle pistol

[uncut falcon]

Learning HS, I can't believe I waited so long to pick it up. Having a blast with it. Uzis and pistols are great fun, but starting to poke into Havocs with the class and it really just feels like the needle pistol is the way to go. How do you handle hordes running it? Does it have any AOE aspect to it when people pop? Or do you just use melee for the chaff

[bronze glade]

just take shivs

or taxe

those are relatively low investment melees that can handle hordes

[uncut falcon]

Is there a community consensus on uzis vs stubbers, or is it largely situational?

[brittle sierra]

Stubbers are dog

At least in comparison to other weapons you can grab

[uncut falcon]

Its a shame cause they're so cool but that was my sneaking suspicion as well

[brittle sierra]

Explosive bolt pistol is the best via vibes

Change my mind

Actually the funniest weapon on scum

[astral canyon]

Stubs are sidearms while dual autos are for desperado scum

[brittle sierra]

Yeah but stimm pistol exists 😈

[astral canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/sleeping-cat-gif-2268097779864616291

I take stimm on adrenaline builds

If i take chem dep i use stubs

[brittle sierra]

The crusher after I inject him with 40 shots of LSD

[low harbor]

dual 1911s are ok as melee build sidearm but mid overall

[flat mist]

Pretty terrible imo

[jaunty coral]

the needle pistol itself just lets you nuke hordes with the aoe alternate mode ya

[manic wolf]

True tbh

[mental trellis]

yes in Havoc the needle can pump out as much damage as flame staff. Sometimes more.
Coated wep dont really need. Combat blade hits pretty hard

[jaunty coral]

wonder if they'll nerf it lol

what do you guys do for curios? ive been running 2x tough 1x stam on most builds. but also experimented with a full health curio, what do you guys like?

[mental trellis]

as long as you run 1 5% health. you wont get 1 shotted in H40 from a poxburster mistake
i too am a fan of 2 tough 1 stam

[solemn merlin]

Hey can someone give me a crow bar build

[upbeat gyro]

You can run 99% melee build, just pick pickpocket and your needler build is also online at sametime

Just grab the chem toxin 10% dmg node atleast

[dire badge]

Use alt fire on needler to clear Chaf hordes. But in havoc I'd only do that with pickpocket talent otherwise save ammo for tougher shit with main mode.

In a melee build needler is your main friend cus blessings don't matter on it so I run run n gun and that perk where you're immune to range while above 50% stamina. So that plus a 3 stam Curio and stam perk on the fent gu- I mean needle gun can get me to close distances with ease

Take anything I say with a grain of salt though, I'm hard stuck havoc 30s 😔

[manic wolf]

Idk about the Needler itself, but Toxin is probably gonna see some tweaks, it has kinda linear scaling at the moment and extremely good ADMs so its, by quite a margin, the strongest DoT

There was a chart knocking about a bit ago that displayed it nicely

[pulsar aspen]

Also, rockets.

[mighty belfry]

And chem nades.

Yeah there's a few things on this class that need to get looked at a bit.

And one that needs to get looked at a lot.

[manic wolf]

I dont think Surstromming tins need looking at all that much if im honest

They're strong, but they're strong in a flat manner

They're good at one thing, and exactly nothing else

[pulsar aspen]

And i would say, weaker compared to rockets.

[manic wolf]

Absolutely yeah

Rockets kinda needed the extra charge, but not the extra AoE range

[pulsar aspen]

Yes, you do get some nice AoE clear on the ground, but you'll most likely have something for that anyway and this clear isn't exactly quick.

Rockets will quickly clear whatever is threatening to overwhelm you, giving you space to move.

[manic wolf]

Yeah, its the offensive vs defensive conumdrum

I would put Chem Nades as the worst blitz on Scum tbh, sure they're good, but they're not capable of offensive play, whereas both the others are

Even Blackouts, take Pocket Tox' and sure you're spending 2 to get the 6 stacks that fish tins would give you, but you get them back, so that expenditure is inconsequential int grand scheme of things, and you can use them pro-actively, which you cannot do with fish tins

[mighty belfry]

Honestly sometimes I don't even take pocket tox.

Blackouts themselves are just, really good.

[manic wolf]

Yeah, the stagger enough is hella strong

I just feel obliged to make that comparison because its often veiwed as a problem if the blitz doesnt do damage of some sort

[mighty belfry]

being on the class, that doesn't need its blitzes to do damage

[manic wolf]

Absolutely yeah, but during the release window a lot of people got sucked into the spectacle of being able to delete a wave on spawn with fish tins, despite them offering exactly nothing outside of the defensive niche

An lets be real, having on-demand stagger for a class that struggles to have CC is just crazy value all round when it comes to Blackouts

[pulsar aspen]

During the release window i had Hive Scum players getting shot to pieces because they didn't have Desperado and were clueless as to what to do without it.

[manic wolf]

Go figure melee Scum actually asks you to play the game, truly terrible

[mental trellis]

Also didn’t help the defensive and toughness gen nodes were further than it is now

[pulsar aspen]

True, but at the same time this just shows how many people are used to just facetank everything

Suboptimal defensive and toughness node placement is no excuse for generally bad play

[dire badge]

Mmhm hivesucm has me play way more careful and just making me a better player because if i dont ull be merked by a random poxwalker extra

[manic wolf]

It must be considered that typically Fatshark likes to put the defensive nodes at the top of the tree. (though I don't think thats a good design philosophy personally)

Scum was a welcome departure from that line of thought initially, though ofc they went back on it in short order outside of HCB

[dire badge]

Yeah but with like chem grenades they just die so fast you don't need stagger because everything but crushers melt quick enough so you have room to dodge out of the way of the tougher shit

[muted pivot]

Two questions about hive scum in the new event

Do cartel stimms give pox attunement stacks? And does stimm supply give pox attunement stacks?

[pulsar aspen]

@muted pivot Cartel Stims themselves will, using stimm supply without cartel stimms will not, even when you deploy a normal stim with it. If it works with cartel stims i don't know.

Best idea would be to just remove the cartel stim and play something else then stimm supply because there will be more than enough normal stims

[manic wolf]

Right, but depending on your build, you should be able to do that with melee or ranged weapons

Chem grenades overlap with what Scum is already good at, IE; dense, mixed horde. They don't offer anything to help with what the character isnt good at

Both Blackouts and the RPG do

Admittedly, less so the RPG, but that offers something that massively aids the team instead in such it can delete armour walls on demand

But Blackouts give you on-demand CC, which is going to save you or a teammate's hide significantly faster and more often than Chem 'nades will do

Like Scum is strong, for sure, but the one thing it lacks is consistent crowd control

And Chem 'Nades offer defensive CC, sure, but they don't offer offensive CC, nor are they particularly consistent because people are'nt going to feed you grenade pickups like they will if you have the RPG and they don't regen like Blackouts do

[dire badge]

Hmmm you do have a good point

[mental trellis]

bolt pistol says hello

[dire badge]

In havoc 30s though chem grenades saved my hide a couple times just because it the wide aoe and how it melts everything

[manic wolf]

Yeah, you take that if you take the RPG

[manic wolf]

They do melt everything, but again, its one-way defensive CC, Blackouts do both offensive and defensive CC

[dire badge]

It doesn't actually stun them forong enough or do any dmg though. If I stun a couple of people and start working my way through groups like that, it's faster to melt all at once with chem grenades. Cus while they won't be cc'd I have enough dodges to dodge until they're all melted

[manic wolf]

Not for long no, but its enough time to pull yourself, or for a teammate to pull themselves out of a particularly shitty situation, and they regen, which means they're effectively always on the table for such problems, Chem 'nades don't regen, which means you have to be much more considerate as to when you use them

[muted pivot]

tbh, scum is by far my favourite class, so it's a good opportunity for me to branch back out to my other classes for a bit lol

I've overplayed scum so much since it was released

I gotta say, inferno psyker on this event is hard work

[manic wolf]

I said during Scum release when everyone was fawning over Chem 'nades that I don't think they'll last the test of time and I was right, its far more common for people to run RPG or Blackouts than it is fish tins because both are much more universally useful

[manic wolf]

About time Psyker had to work for something tbh

[dire badge]

Yeah guess I'll bring them if we don't have a psyker or rockgryn

Or lone wolf arbiters

[muted pivot]

I mean I've usually played gun psyker - which is like scum before scum was released lol

[manic wolf]

They're significantly better than rocks

[dire badge]

No I meant because of grenade economy

[manic wolf]

Oh based, yeah I can respect that, much more fun way of playing Psyker if you have to do so

[mental trellis]

sorta overlooked the blackout due to how powerful the other two are.
After using it with the mk6 Bolt pistol. that shit fills back up so fast.
When you shoot into hordes.

[manic wolf]

I wouldnt take BPistol and Blackouts personally, but you do you man

Just they kinda do the same thing

BPistol and RPG tho, different story entirely

[mental trellis]

not really. one stops crushers one doesnt. blackout wise

[dire badge]

I take stimgun always just because blessings don't matter on it so I have stamina perk, run n gun and blessing where you're immune to ranged while above 50% stanina

[dire badge]

Blackouts dorp crushers right

[manic wolf]

Yesnt, if you want that functionality, RPG is gonna be a better pick and BPistol can make room amongst everything that isnt a Bulwark or Crusher

[mental trellis]

yep

[manic wolf]

Like AoE BPistol is just Blackouts, but gun for a lot of the game

[dire badge]

Should I bring fully staggered enemies take 15% more dmg then if I'm bringing blackout

[manic wolf]

Nah

Its not that you can't leverage it, its just that the bonus is kinda shitt for the amount of expenditure involved

More value elsewhere

[dire badge]

Backstab talent while they're getting up

[manic wolf]

I dont think anyone takes that, ever

[reef spoke]

I'm sure you can fit something better

Like the "first enemy struck takes increased damage" talent at the top if you REALLY hate crushers

[dire badge]

I geniually am at a place where idk what to take

Outside of backstab talent. Because outside of increased adrenaline duration and adrenaline on kills. The adrenaline nodes arent qorrh it

Hyper c hurts hyper v too much so I don't take that either

[reef spoke]

Sounds like you're doing a Shiv Adrenaline build with boom boltpistol?

Or needle pistol?

Tbh reaching for Pickpocket on left, the damage and defense nodes in middle, and Stim collector on right should basically drain your points

Could always pick up some damage nodes at the top

No clue what your tree looks like though so just throwing ideas

[dire badge]

Needle

[reef spoke]

Ah so no ranged toughness regen or ranged damage nodes

[dire badge]

I don't have stim collector too much point investment and I don't take pickpocket cus it's boring as shit

[dire badge]

Yeah I'm rawdawging it

[reef spoke]

Oh that's why you have so many points then lol

That's like 6-7 freed up points alone

[dire badge]

Yup

[reef spoke]

With that many points waving around might as well mess around with stuff on top as there's a few utility nodes up there

Sadly middle nodes are basically all dodging which only really need Nimble and Jittery

[dire badge]

Yeah but like slippery customer is useless and the less threat thing hurts the finesse on dodge blessing

[reef spoke]

Since you said no Stim Collector, have you considered Blackouts + 3 Toxin stacks on blitz explosion?

Basically a small "everything dies here outside of Havoc" nade

[dire badge]

Yeah I'm considering doing that and putting fent on crit with my shivs

[dire badge]

Only play havoc 😔

[reef spoke]

Ah yeah it loses the ability to instant 1-tap hordes for supercharged stim cooldown

[dire badge]

Still might be useful for hypver v though

[reef spoke]

Not really sure then as Havoc changes a lot and no Pickpocket nor Stim Collector means there's a lot of points I'm not sure where to go

[dire badge]

Actually wait that's insane. Fent on grensde gets them low. 15% dmg increase on first hit. Hyper v over kill on low HP, two hit crushers

[reef spoke]

Not sure on how consistent that is at 2 hitting crushers but that is a combo that's reliable enough in Havoc

Provided you can get 20 close range kills :p shouldn't be an issue hopefully

Tbh I mostly just don't know what hp they have in Havoc I haven't played in a long time lol

The new season can't come soon enough

[pulsar aspen]

@reef spoke You'll get the new season now but its all Rotten Armour.

[reef spoke]

There is no God

[dire badge]

Run n gun and above 50% stamina = range immunity on the fent gun let'se close the distance easy

[reef spoke]

Ah yeah should be good. C:

[manic wolf]

Slippery customer is useless if you don't use sliding (which you should be doing)

[dire badge]

I use it all the time but in melee a slide dodge costs more than normal ddoge

Dus there is no point in it

[manic wolf]

Costs more on a class that gets its dodges back in effectively zero time, yes

[mental trellis]

if you keep dodging you technically have range immunity. even into infinite negatives.
If you dodge horizontally
Only on scum does this apply.

[upbeat gyro]

Classic Fatshark moment, they give new DLC class and then make similar themed event, and said DLC class synergies and works with it mechanically the worst

[upbeat gyro]

I was looking into it lastnight when figuring where to squeeze extra bits of dmg and it was just awful in every way

Had 1 spare talent and picked this

Not sure if its necessary and would be better placed elsewhere

TacAxe + Needler build with backup pickpocket but mostly melee

[pulsar aspen]

I don't see anything bad with the event regarding Hive Scum? And, in my opinion, the whole personal Stim is overrated anyway. I don't doubt it's effectiveness, but it almost sounds like you have no choice but to take it.

[upbeat gyro]

Whipping out needler quite often to soften up crushers and occasionally far away targets as its so good with mobility, can sprint towards next group and fire at em

[upbeat gyro]

Well you gotta drop your own stimm gameplay that makes class unique for the event stims?

[pulsar aspen]

I never said you have to.

[upbeat gyro]

Well, if you want the immunities and work with the event rules

[pulsar aspen]

Your own Stim will work, just Stim Supply does not.

[upbeat gyro]

Ah, own stimm gives immunity?

[pulsar aspen]

Yes, i said that.

[upbeat gyro]

Ok, should have read more accurately then.

I just powered through the event on first day on rebreather arbites

[pulsar aspen]

I said Stim Supply does not give it, which makes sense coding wise, since it is technically not a Stim.

[upbeat gyro]

And huffed every stim on the way

[pulsar aspen]

Why would you go Rebreather in the first place?

It is totally not required, but i can see that it was picked for comfort.

[upbeat gyro]

Yeah comfort, i went full on penance/event build anyway, ranged shotgun arby

And did the previously bugged out penance too

Finished arbi penenaces (outside finish X amount of missions) and event in one sitting basicly

Speedrunning heresy, i picked also every speed talent i could find and just spammed Mk3 Exe on everything on sight with like 50%+ reload

[reef spoke]

Honestly the event would be easier if randoms actually used the stims

Please chug the med stims there's so many of them and the team is so hurt

[uncut falcon]

Thank you!

[upbeat gyro]

Also if you use Alt fire, make sure its Mk2

Game just trolled me, got excited, 3x +1wound(s)

I grabbed 4th 17% toughness for my hivescum though below those 3

So i can switch around without having to bless the omnissiah and spend recouces everytime i do it

[manic wolf]

I will not chug the stims and I will not get in the pod

[reef spoke]

Me skipping the medicae because of microplastics UwU

[tranquil fjord]

its not microplastics its like some other shit that the inquisition wont tell you the effects of

[calm aurora]

https://tenor.com/view/kool-aid-man-oh-yeah-wall-break-family-guy-gif-8149689

[dire badge]

Peep the build. backstab talento nly thing im unsure about but ik hyper caint slithering its way into my holy hyper v

shivs with ripost and uncanny

shoulod i replace one of them for precognition?

[calm aurora]

you use uncanny on weapons with good dmg against carapace

you don't need rampage rending

that point then can go to hyper critical

backstab damage is situational, that point is better spent on pickpocket

[dire badge]

so replace uncanny with procog?

[calm aurora]

no keep uncanny and riposte

and take hyper critical instead of channeled aggression

also, I don't think you will have enough uptime on that talent with the shivs

[dire badge]

hmmm true true

here's an idea do i remove battering momentum, rending on rampage and backstab and place it in 10% chem toxin, crits apply chem toxin on melee and finally, 5% stacking 3 times based on enemies infected based on chem toxin

[calm aurora]

no

you really really want hypercritical

[dire badge]

why? Doesn't it interfere with hyper V too much?

[split halo]

what should my tree look like if i wanna mostly use the dual smgs ?

[calm aurora]

sometimes, but it also work together and when it does, it bonkers

@low harbor made some testing, I am trying to find his comment

[split halo]

like is this looking ok? or is it all garbage

[calm aurora]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a07920be-dc05-42a0-a2b4-9909bf17087c/what-the-freak-is-an-ammo?utm_medium=website&utm_source=gameslantern&utm_campaign=share_button

it looks quite close

[split halo]

also how do you know if something in the shop is good or not? should i buy this ?

i got 1 min before shop resets

[calm aurora]

yeah

ammo is the only important stat, with mobility

[split halo]

is this ok ?

[dire badge]

gotcha thanks!

[calm aurora]

stopping power is a dmg stat

so nope

you want to dump mobility

or collateral

probably collateral

[dire badge]

okaay this is the reworked bottom version while keeping uncanny and riposte on the daggers. Yeah I know pickpocket is crazy but I'd rathern ot run it

[calm aurora]

I can respect that choice as long you are not vaccuming the map for ammo 😄

now, off you go test that!

[dire badge]

oh yeah i let everyone else have a round first

thanks

also quick quesiton why no rampage rending talent? on havoc with rampage dont cruhsers surviver longer than theyt hsould still

[calm aurora]

assuming you are using the shivs mk1

[dire badge]

ofcourse im not a savage

[calm aurora]

at max in pen you should be around 70% dmg on carapace, which is very good

then you add uncanny on top

and considering you can soften the crushers from afar with your daggers

[echo python]

Where are you getting that 70% damage from?

[calm aurora]

or the needle pistol

that is you adm

basically this is how armor impact your dmg

[echo python]

I know that, but it says 7% max in that screenshot

[calm aurora]

I was reading the line above

[dire badge]

so you're saying rending rampage talent ontop of uncanny is overkill? but then shouldnt i take it so I can replace uncanny with precog?

[calm aurora]

I think that's the adm for heavies

[echo python]

I think the heavy attacks have significantly higher ADM than the light attacks yeah, but it-

[calm aurora]

because lights are really really low dmg

[echo python]

Oh wait I'm dumbo

[calm aurora]

l1 vs h1

[echo python]

Yeah I was just not reading the full thing

[calm aurora]

gameslantern is not really helpful here tbh

[calm aurora]

rending will welp your tox a bit

precog is good but it's for 2s after a dodge

if it was 3s i would be ok... but uncanny is hard to pass

well, you can test both tbh

[muted pivot]

rending doesn't do much for tox

0.9 carapace ratio already

it helps more with bleeds if you run them

[dire badge]

I think I will try that and bring rending rampage to amke up for lack of rending base with uncanny

[calm aurora]

I said a bit

0.1 is a bit

o//

[main trellis]

I don’t use uncanny; i use flesh & mercy

[calm aurora]

It's a choice I respect

[main trellis]

Better weakspot dmg with better uptime
As for cara; thats what weakspots & crits & toxins are for

[sturdy linden]

No Riposte?

[upbeat gyro]

Backstab talent is quite terrible

https://i.imgur.com/CLbdHwf.jpeg

The area is very limited, the bonus is very small, and you lose it instantly

And you gotta be smacking there multiple times in that narrow cone

[main trellis]

Don’t need battering with rampage - you get enough cleave from the ability
Also adrenaline keystone with the right side modifier is oof cause you have to kill; if you face a single target that won’t die fast you lose on that (also you don’t really have to pick similar stuff for it; you activate frenzy fast as it is)

[upbeat gyro]

Been liking adrenaline smiter on tac axe as you kill so fast, including elites, only problem if you smack some crusher for longer time but should be dead within 10s 😄

You kill 6 poxwalkers or 2 elites in matter of seconds

And then you can keep refreshing it over and over

So 20s feels unnecessary

Kinda wish it had some dmg subnodes, this is the only one im gonna test out next game from it that seems useful

Hivescum doesnt really have that many toughness over time talents, this everyone has

So in tough situation where your toughness just went to 0 and that stops working, and you are more focused on dodging than farming hits to regain toughness, that could help

Like you are cornered with boss coming at you

But Tis but a Scratch wont even trigger without ranged hits first

So cant really rely on it either

Actually, if there was line from Nimble to Jittery, i might skip that altogether

[bronze glade]

this is basically a must take

it's incredible sustain

[thorny ginkgo]

is it good to take toxin mania on a full chem build

[upbeat gyro]

Adrenaline one is same but almost always on, but why not both? 🤷‍♂️ As not that good options anyway

[bronze glade]

because tis but a scartch has twice the regen rate

and you're taking chip damage from shooters / gunners frequently anyway

regen rate is a huge difference

[upbeat gyro]

Ok fair enough

[bronze glade]

10% is massive

[upbeat gyro]

Ill take both

[bronze glade]

adren one is good too if you want more regen yeah

[jaunty coral]

ok i feel silly asking this but unsure how it works, how do i turn off my stimm so i can stimm supply med stimms to the team?
i just put 0 points in the stimm tree, right?

is this a valid tactic? i just pick up stimms and apply them to everyone instead? or is the cd just gonna be too low and i wont have stimms to apply to people enough?

[astral canyon]

Not really

[jaunty coral]

not really as in its not valid?

[astral canyon]

Too unreliable

Unless youre on a premade team to coordinate everyone funneling all the stimms to you its really not worth it

[upbeat gyro]

If only green healed even small amount

Like health dot ticking 1 per 10s for total 10 points or whatever

[main trellis]

Its for situations where you could not engage/time between fights
Also smiter is oof cause the moment you face a boss you lose your keystone effectively
Same for situations where you can’t engage cause of mass & you’re alone/last man standing

[dire badge]

so you think smiter is just not worth it?

even when tis perfectly aligned with trash and weak elites?

[main trellis]

For that you pick burst of energy - adrenaline one just helps those out

[upbeat gyro]

It has weakness in few specific situations, otherwise superfast to trigger

[main trellis]

Its simply not required no; better put that talent somewhere else

[upbeat gyro]

Ill try without it and see how uptime is

Maybe save vid so can see afterwards

[main trellis]

If it would be 1 - 2 stacks on attack then yes
But since its on hit & you cleave its not needed

[dire badge]

bet lmk how it goes

[upbeat gyro]

Because free talentpoint is always welcome

Well, cant maybe today yet, 👶

[dire badge]

guess 5% toughnessp er second during adreneline works

[main trellis]

Its alright

Basically; 20s adrenaline durration & 5% toughness regain is all that you should ever pick for that keystone

[dire badge]

yeah makes sense

guess i get backstab again with the free point lmfao

[main trellis]

No pls no

[dire badge]

im just saying it goes cray cray on boss dmg

[thorny ginkgo]

with bonesaw and needle pistol

[main trellis]

It can but… its so niche its bad
It should not lose all stacks on missing a backstab… shits dogshit overall

[upbeat gyro]

Yeah should last 1s-2s, instead of losing

[main trellis]

3,5s atleast imo

Like most blessings

[upbeat gyro]

Missing should at minimum only lose 1 stack

[main trellis]

Nah; no stack loss should be a thing

Trickshooter blessing does not lose stacks on missing a weakspot & it lasts 3,5s
Its top tier

As an example

[thorny ginkgo]

needle pistol might be the best ranged weapon in the game lmao

at least with pickpocket

[dire badge]

Playing with poxgas in high havocs feels like literal hell. Half the time I'm not even ready and pox gas charges up and it feels like I'm forced to charge a trench line with machine guns no coverd.

[river skiff]

I just did 6k dps with the shivs

[river skiff]

It could have been higher I am not using melee skill LOL how is it even possible to melt crushers this easily 👀

[thorny ginkgo]

honestly this class needs dueling sword, who cares about shivs

[limber cradle]

Bad and wrong opinion

[muted pivot]

Shivs are more fun

And do 99% the same thing

[dire badge]

what it needs are dual swords but thel ength is between a deuling sword and a shiv

[thorny ginkgo]

dueling sword> power fal>devil claw>heavy sword>psword>shivs

[exotic temple]

Shivs are gross and over tuned. Mk1 has brain dead move set as well. Mk 3 is still op but its more fun

[astral canyon]

lmao

saying psword is worse than falchion

[sturdy linden]

Pass the drugs mucker

You've had enough for today

[echo plaza]

Is this comparison for how each weapon performs or how fun they are for you

[sturdy linden]

[zenith fern]

nah they have been infected by the shouters

theres no drugs that can save him now

[upbeat gyro]

Goddamn do i hate that pox gas modifier on havocs

Not only does it eat your toughness if you got nothing to swing, i swinged explosive barrel because i didnt see it and im far from having memorized their every location on every map yet

Recorded it, guess i should have seen it

Skill issue, but i would have seen it without the gas

[livid raven]

pox gas also nerfs your toughness generation so you should really get the fuck out

you are never catching my ass playing pox gas in aurics, nevermind havoc

[upbeat gyro]

Tell that to the team who ran just deeper into it when we had both captain and monstrosity on us

Left 2 of us fighting em while they rushed ahead to die

Went pretty smooth until that barrel for me

Need better stats mod so can see % for crit and weakspots

Nvm, its there

[upbeat gyro]

I need to learn swing Tac Axe more horizontally with push attack+H1+L1 or whatever it was. Now i just mostly swing L1 and occasional push attack and occasional heavy there when dodgesliging to next enemies or harder targets, which is probably just DPS loss

But i have only handful of games with it so far played, maybe less than 5

Ever on any classes

[woeful hill]

PA h1 loop

But yeah, if you are pressured you can just back up while light attacking

But the push attack and heavy combo have enough stagger to stop an attaching rager

Mk7

[upbeat gyro]

Special has nice stagger too but not yet used to using it properly

Tried on crusher, but it prolly had been already staggered so did nothing and almost ate overhead

[river skiff]

Hyper violence or 15% dmg to elites? I use shivs

[upbeat gyro]

Why not both?

[river skiff]

Need to choose between em

[upbeat gyro]

But hyperviolence is really good so thats kinda core talent for melee

[livid raven]

if you need to chose, you made a wrong choice somewhere else

[upbeat gyro]

Yeah i had too many talent points as melee after picking all the dmg nodes

[river skiff]

Does it interact with cleave in some interesting way? I am already one shotting the flies but I heard the talent is good from mister e so I am asking here about the specifics

[livid raven]

it certainly does

to begin with, it doesn't suffer from cleave damage distribution

[upbeat gyro]

It can pump your dmg above normal amounts, stacking up

[livid raven]

every enemy hit with it gets the flat damage from hv

[upbeat gyro]

To then hit really hard when you stop clearing trash and go for elite

[river skiff]

Oh interesting

Okay

[livid raven]

it's pretty much a must have for melee builds

[river skiff]

Ig I will get rid of extra crit for dodging and pick this instead

[river skiff]

In a way that's like a guaranteed crit

[upbeat gyro]

What weapon you have? Most of em like the extra crit

[river skiff]

I am going for a somewhat hybrid

[livid raven]

oh the humanity

[river skiff]

Shivs and double uzi rifles

[upbeat gyro]

Shivs in particular like the crits

They do hugely more dmg when critting

[livid raven]

i would really avoid the uzis if you aren't going all in with ranged

[upbeat gyro]

Needler is the melee sidearm meta choice, so strong people frown upon it here

[river skiff]

They melt pretty good in my current tree

[livid raven]

they have actually worse dps than the vraks iag, i suggest that one

[upbeat gyro]

You can be sprinting to pack of crushers and shoot 6 needles at em, have 2 crushers pretty much melt by the time you got there and then swing down the rest

[livid raven]

this is with pickpocket right?

[river skiff]

Does it have the mobile perk?

[livid raven]

no

it's not that good on uzis btw

[upbeat gyro]

Hybrid build can kinda work for fun in lower difficulties. But if you go havoc, you should specialize either melee rampage or desperado ranged

[livid raven]

uzis can already shoot while sprinting

[upbeat gyro]

And then there is the medpack and chem dep too

Uzis just get less recoil from it, they have the main effect innate in em

[river skiff]

I don't really have a need for that I am leaving most ammo for my teammates cuz I only use it with the skill or for transportation/quick specialist kill

[river skiff]

Interesting I'll try that

Thanks

What to use instead?

[livid raven]

try blaze away and pinning fire

[upbeat gyro]

Something like this works too (reginalds gameslantern)

But if going speedload, you want pickpocket as you will be spraying more, and its Desperado oriented

Also 80% collateral means you want Pinning Fire so you can hit bit more by staggering

Otherwise 80% mobi without it maybe

[livid raven]

collateral doesn't really matter

you want pinning fire in any case

[river skiff]

Already use that

[upbeat gyro]

Collateral makes Pinning Fire work on couple more elites than if you have it 60% dumped

Like one gunner and one plasma

[river skiff]

Blaze away sounds interesting if weapons can already sprint while firing

[upbeat gyro]

Probably want mobi 80% instead to play on strenghts of DAP

[livid raven]

there is barely any difference between 80 and 60 mob

[river skiff]

I have 73 stopping power 67 collateral

[upbeat gyro]

Stopping Power

[livid raven]

but i would max stopping power, the weapon has already pretty bad adms

generally you want any damage stat to be maxed

with very few exceptions

[river skiff]

Does stopping power boost dmg as well?

[livid raven]

yeah it says there

it affects armor penetration

[river skiff]

I'll test that later

[river skiff]

Actually is there a table for all stats not just 80?

[livid raven]

gameslanter has sliders

[river skiff]

1 question

Are these stats just for 60 and 80?

[livid raven]

they are for 0 and 100

[river skiff]

?

Why 100?

[novel oracle]

Remnants of an unfinished crafting system

That retroactively completed itself via balancing

So it looks ugly now but works

The idea was that stats going up to 100 would be something endgame or just rare and to be added

But it took too long for that to happen to the point where the game is now accounting for 80% being the max and thats just now the way it is

[river skiff]

That's confusing

Should I retract 20% of it then

[novel oracle]

Blame the higherups of FS for pushing DT for release before it was finished

So everything was tripping over itself after launch

[novel oracle]

Of the ratio

If a stat goes from .5 to 1
Assume that it goes from .5 to .9

[river skiff]

Is ratio 10% then?

[novel oracle]

Its the ratio from min to max

In my example, theres a difference of .5 between the minimum and max

So its 20% lower than that

[river skiff]

Ah I get it now

Thanks

I'll run some tests tomorrow

[novel oracle]

I think off the top of my head, the pen stat of the knife was .61 for carapace on heavies

[river skiff]

Kinda only need the weapon to clear flak armor enemies I am not bothering with carapace

[novel oracle]

Im just using an actual example with less convenient numbers

That I remember from other bs darktide math stuff lol

[astral canyon]

huh interesting

wait is this actual knife or shiv?

[novel oracle]

Mk3 knife

[astral canyon]

nvm then

[novel oracle]

Pen stat is also straight up just the adm

With no rending or crits
Knife deals 61% of its heavy dmg to cara

At max stats

[sonic pumice]

somone have a good build using the Rashad axe? i want something that feels like a hammer for the class and that feels colse enough

[low harbor]

knife atks

[zenith fern]

thats why knive is bonkers on scum

[upbeat gyro]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a0d16285-0fb3-41cf-aaf3-1bbf28bc5e3d/rashad-axe-scum You could go from there, i tried that a bit but felt the weapon was too slow

Now using Tac Axe

Move Pickpocket to Sweet Spot if you dont wanna needler spam

Or Adrenaline Smiter

[past trench]

Still no farkin' cosmeticsssss

[nova valley]

Loose formation: yay or nay?

[astral canyon]

fuck nay

take the extra blitz talent instead

[nova valley]

Yeah... Tried LF, nothing seemed to change. Just wanted to be sure I am no missin anything

[brittle sierra]

How do you kill Cara then?

[woeful jackal]

Hivescum with the pickpocket skill

[novel oracle]

With the other weapon

Theyre talking about collateral and stopping power as stats
Theyre using a gun

[brittle sierra]

Needle pistol it is 😈

[mighty belfry]

Boring.

[upbeat gyro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTZTuORFts

[thorny ginkgo]

no im trolling lol

[echo plaza]

[novel oracle]

Guess what gun doesnt have collateral

So its another one

[low harbor]

Shredder autopistol lol

[upbeat gyro]

https://youtu.be/NcK3iUtbKd4?si=Y1iSs_U_8sCvAjq0 this tuber legit? Atleast find it helpful so far

Runs Hivescum without any bottom nodes (adrenaline, vulture or chem dep) which is dodgy

[manic wolf]

No keystone Scum is certainly a choice

[uncut falcon]

Desperado hive scum has to be the most fun i've had playing this game. Zip zooming around, hosing people down with the uzis. I can't believe I held off on getting the DLC for so long. Very addicting

[mighty belfry]

I've done it.

It's not as bad as you'd think.

[manic wolf]

Fair enough, just seems a little odd compared to keystoneless Vet

[nova valley]

Do what you have fun with. Take what you can, give nothing back!

[nova valley]

Crowbar and Can Opener. For flavor!

https://tenor.com/view/chow-crowbar-gif-22055635

[neat delta]

I think a good pick pocket nerf would be limit it to melee and trigger only when in coherency

[manic wolf]

With a 30s ICD

[austere coyote]

only in melee and only when you're OUT of ammo to kinda push the all or nothing theming of the class

or at least "kills with melee weapons" so shiv special can get it back also

[neat delta]

Huh that ain't bad.

[mystic rain]

whats the best melee weapon for a melee build?

[river skiff]

Shivs or rockets depending on what's in front of me

[tropic crag]

the short answer is, yes.

[manic wolf]

Combat axe, statistically, but Shiv and TacAxe are both effectively on par in practical terms and don't make you fall asleep when you play them

[tropic crag]

basically everything works more than fine... one of the axes and shiv are probably the highest damage but the other weapons work well enough to not care about highest damage

like no matter what you pick you're gonna be able to handle havoc 40 with it

[manic wolf]

Honourable mention to Chainsword, but thats a bit more demanding

[deft gust]

which braced autogun is best for desperado?

[manic wolf]

No idea, but if you're playing Desperado you can use effectively any gun you like and win because ranged Scum is giga-braindead

Run what you like

[tropic crag]

yeah like... if it works with bistol as good as it did when i was getting the penances then it should work well with anything, bring them on a mission and choose

i don't play shooty gun style enough to answer better than that

[mystic rain]

how much do i have to think about combos with comaxe and shivs?

[tropic crag]

axes are mostly left click from what i remember... the shives are also alot of left clicking but have a bit of good attacks to know how to access

[manic wolf]

Think the boxcutter Shiv you do have to think about combos, the swirly ones, not so much, and Combat Axe, not at all

[tropic crag]

yeah the slash shives have alot of weird fun combos, i assumed they were talking about the "good ones" (i like the slashy shivs alot tbh)

[manic wolf]

They're both good wym?

[mystic rain]

good

i dont want to think

[tropic crag]

lol its why i put quotes around it , people will assume the ones with less thinking are better because of that

[mystic rain]

whast the best mark of combat axe?

[bronze glade]

rashad

[jaunty coral]

so only the overhead stab gets the backstab bonus? i didnt know that. is the push atk, and the punch follow up atk both count, right? on both models? or no?

[mystic rain]

is adrenaline frenzy good?

and whats the best rampage addons?

[jaunty coral]

in my experience literally all of them are good, just depends on weapon

i take the extended duration one almost always, and cleave is also good for most weapons

[tropic crag]

adren is very good, both it and chem dep work really well with melee builds

[jaunty coral]

the stagger is very good, even staggers bosses, but on somethign like devil claw you want to parry i dont run it. The rending is good too, but maybe the worst node bc its conditional, imo, its good if your melee needs rending

[mystic rain]

whats the best aura for this, crit chance or melee damage?

[tropic crag]

and yeah the rampage add on nodes its just take as many as you are able most of the time while dropping a node here or there depending on the weapon

i take crit chance personally but they all probably do fine

[manic wolf]

Nah, just take on-kill stacks and duration

[jaunty coral]

i dont think scum needs any buffs, but rampage ult taking up to 4 pts to augment is a bit much, i do kind of wish they would wrap it into 2 or 3 max

[manic wolf]

The 5% toughness p/s I guess if you're prone to getting steamrolled, but generally not really worth

[tropic crag]

rampage not adren for the addon nodes... at least i thought we were talking about that

[manic wolf]

Oh yeah myb, I misread

[tropic crag]

and yeah on adren i take the toughness node because its just good

because it just lets you keep face tanking things in anything below havoc and lets you play more normally in havoc lol

but yeah its not mandatory

i think the highest value rampage addon node is the bonus duration on elite hitting one... but they all kind of have good value

[manic wolf]

Just put cleave bonus and Forge's Bellow int main Rampage node, do a Scriers, what could go wrong

[tropic crag]

oh god yeah forges bellow sorry

thats the best one, i think of that as just part of rampage

[manic wolf]

People swear by that but I never take it

[tropic crag]

if i can press a button to get cc while i'm winding up a combo i'm gonna love that

i'm too slayer brained

[bronze glade]

it's quite good

[mystic rain]

im bringing rpg for crushers

[manic wolf]

Yeah so people tell me, being able to turn off monsters is nice, but eh, it always falls into that bracket of "I dont have enough points for this" so I never end up taking it

[tropic crag]

tox blinders is also an option for helping with crushers

and the normal tox nades also melt them lol

[manic wolf]

Still think fish-tins are Scum's worst blitz ngl

[sturdy linden]

RPG is insane because it's instant + massive AoE

[manic wolf]

Not to say they're bad, they're just not on par with RPG/Blackouts

[tropic crag]

the tox nades? yeah they are the weakest but only because toxic pocket sand does the same job more often

[manic wolf]

Ehhh, you can use RPG and Blackouts pro-actively, fish tins are kinda only good in defensive roles

Which is strong, they do that very well, but they're very inflexible

[tropic crag]

yeah its got the shock mine problem

[manic wolf]

Pretty much

Though Shock Mines at least can be regenerated if you go without doggo

Which inherently makes them hold more value

[deft gust]

"fish tins"??? I think you mean can of beans

[manic wolf]

No, beans only stink after they come out your shit-pipe

Fish tins stink when you open them

And Im not waiting several hours to fart and kill like 2 heretics with it

[deft gust]

OK I stand corrected

[tropic crag]

fair, i think they still fall below the normal arby nades by alot but yeah at least they can also regen like the arby nades

[manic wolf]

Oh yeah no totally, they absolutely do

I was just making the comparison to tox nades

Arb Impact nades are easy S+ tier blitz

[mighty belfry]

Tbh I think rampage could do with a slight buff. Not to the actual effects in action but the debuffs are a little brutal in some cases tbh

[low harbor]

just check my guide

[jaunty coral]

staggers even bosses, everything, and does it again on ult end which gives you a nice warning and space to get out for the debuff after. the -50% atk speed on enemies is genuinly useful as well, its actually goated. but it can also be dropped if a player feels they dont need it, it technically doesnt do anything you HAVE to have if you have perfect positioning and decision making, but it also gives you play making potential if you take it - i personally think its a really well designed node for those reasons and that one actually is a good as an augment

[mighty belfry]

The more damage taken is okay. And one of your stamina being drained and regen rate being lowered. Alright.

All three of those at the same time on an ability that will inevitably run out during an intense fight at times because the duration is always limited? It's a little much, especially when there's an ability much like it that has virtually no downsides.

[jaunty coral]

my biggest issue with blackouts, is they seem really promising when applying toxin, but they just dont come back fast enough

i feel like its HC not counting, and that needs to change

but i swear it just feels like it comes back slow regardless, idk

[mighty belfry]

Tbh I have never had issues with blackouts coming back slow but then again I usually don't run builds with just HC.

[jaunty coral]

i feel like if they ACTUALLY came back reliably on 20 melee kills, you would be able to use them all the time and be a constant dot/cc beast for the team, its cool in theory

when you guys use the mk 6 knife, have you guys tried pairing cleave nodes and using the H2/light combo on it? the cleave and mixed horde dueling is pretty nuts lol

but it feels really bad without any cleave nodes

when i run stimm supply high crit, i tend to like the MK III because i just stab everything, or light spam, and the cleave isnt needed to enable the combo- am i thinking about this correctly?

ill have to check ur guide @low harbor and read your knife comments, i will tonight

but on hivescum specifically i really find the big cleave nodes let that combo actually start shining

[mystic rain]

whats the best blessings for comaxe

[mighty belfry]

If you run a strength stimm, I highly recommend hyperviolence on combat knives tbh

[low harbor]

Combat axe? Check pinned guide in vet chat

[mighty belfry]

Even on stimm crate builds, your crits get some crazy overkill going.

[tropic crag]

yeah that attack speed thing makes dragging enemies in slots something you can do by just walking sometimes instead of dodging

[low harbor]

It helps

6.5 -> 9.75 at +50% cleave

[jaunty coral]

in the guide im reading the light s (light attack after special with the heavy profile dmg, correct?) gets an 80% str multiplier on the 6, but not the 3.

So the 6's special->light hits harder when you weave it in, but the 3 comes out quicker (can be chained way better) thats correct?
I never realized the 6's gets the multiplier, just thought it was slower

[jaunty coral]

and 9.75 is the cap right, so only 1 cleave node for 50% is needed, or does more still help?

(aka grab rampage cleave, but dont need a second, or 1 blue cleave if not using rampage)

[low harbor]

Wdym cap

[low harbor]

80% str multiplier means it does 20% less damage, stagger & cleave (well the cleave part doesn’t matter given it gets 0.001)

[jaunty coral]

i thought some weapons had hard cleave caps, can i get more than 1 cleave node to cleave even more, or am i effectively limited (like old evis)

[low harbor]

There’s no such thing as cleave cap

[jaunty coral]

omg, 80%, not 180% or +80% my b

[low harbor]

What you’re thinking of is cleave damage distribution

Some attacks do 0 damage after a certain target

[jaunty coral]

ya, that

[low harbor]

Those attacks are listed with “CDDC = ?”

[jaunty coral]

i guess cleave still 'hits' more targets for application of stagger, debuffs etc

[low harbor]

If that line doesn’t show up, it doesn’t do 0 damage as default

[jaunty coral]

but im def mainly worried about dmg

[low harbor]

With that said, melee attacks generally do less damage across cleave

[jaunty coral]

so what makes the 6 the better knife, just the option to do more cleave?

ive used both a bunch, and i def lean the 6

i think the push atk is safer

is it the 10% dps you mention in the comments on the push atk dps?

i always thought about the III as higher single target dps, but the push atk spam on the VI is real good, but it DOES cost a big resource dump to do

[low harbor]

I wrote it explicitly as × to make it not confuse

[low harbor]

higher single target, better horde

[mystic rain]

Is the stim pistol good if theres like, one or two crushers/maulers?

[river skiff]

It gives special rending effects to everyone targeting them so that's pretty good

[woeful hill]

no it does not

are you thinking of the talent that reduced enemies damage if they are toxed?

[tropic crag]

its like 4 shots for a quick(ish) death on a crusher so its not bad

[manic wolf]

Its the Bonesaw purple mode that does that, not the Needle Gun

[tropic crag]

purple mode is weird

[manic wolf]

An then you'd be playing with Bonesaw an like..

..EWWWW

[river skiff]

My bad I thought it functioned the same

Just for different enemy types with different efficacy

[manic wolf]

Why would that be the case? Needlegun is totally different lul

[tropic crag]

this game has alot of confusing things and interactions, we all get stuff wrong tbh

[tranquil berry]

Purple saw is just brittleness

With the high adm of the tox dot... Rarely worth it outside of bosses

Maybe h40 crushers if the pack is thick to help the aoe dots on the team

[tropic crag]

i still don't know what adm actually stands for so i just keep calling it "Awesome Dude Men" in my head

its probably something boring like armor damage modifier or something

[astral canyon]

Got it in one

[tropic crag]

i'm upset its boring lol

[jaunty coral]

h40 rotten armor, i would swap to it and light spam to help team kill faster, then apply poison to them with the pistol (faster)
but only really used it on big rotten armor packs

[sturdy linden]

I just mentally call it Adam and pretend it's every weapon's imaginary friend

[jaunty coral]

do the slasher model of the dual knives have any movetech

[mighty belfry]

Push attack, special punch, light

If you're really worried about stamina.

[mental igloo]

Its v cool that the added stagger resist to purple mod makes it so mauler can just no-sell blinders

[mighty belfry]

Current purple makes me miss rotten if I'll be honest

Honestly I'm just not playing havoc if they even dare to have both rotten and purple (in its current state) together I think.

I don't know who on Earth thought purple enemies needed to be buffed compared to their normal counterparts

If anything it should be the other way around in my honest opinion.

[limber cradle]

Do not give them ideas

[mental igloo]

gotta focus on priorities, instead of fixing tag bug we get bad event and purple buffs

[manic wolf]

Havoc modifiers have always been shite tbh

Some are more bearable than others, but the majority of them are just disruptive without really offering anything to the minute to minute gameplay

[low harbor]

I've seen insane ideas in code

[limber cradle]

Insane good more shit thats like "damn, why do I play this game" tier

[tranquil berry]

Honestly, the hound waves from auric are the most interesting and impactful modifier in the game

At least it's a mechanical challenge that requires a shift in focus and pace adjustment

Instead of: this thing has a ton of health, and the other thing can't be staggered

[tropic crag]

i just start dodging left and right and pushing after every 2 swings while standing in the middle of the pack

[pseudo latch]

is vulture's push worthwhile?

[tranquil berry]

No

[low harbor]

no, insanely ass ideas

[limber cradle]

Nice, can't wait for those

Why is havoc such a bastard child mode

Whyd they add fun horde density and fun amounts of bosses but also tie it to dogshit modifiers

[low harbor]

worst optimization, worst modifiers, worst game system

the potential mode

"with good mutators this could potentially be rly good!!!!!"

[limber cradle]

Straight up yeah

Path

I cannot tell you how much it pisses me off that the modifiers seem to directly conflict with the engine

Its like blighttown all over again

[low harbor]

"if they rework the rank system and make it like normal difficulties it'd be rly good!!!!!"

"if they fix the audio and optimize the game properly and get havoc servers working it could be rly good!!!!!!!"

[limber cradle]

I don't even give a fuck about the stupid ranks atp

[sturdy linden]

keep the ranks, give us quickplay

fuck the party finder

[mighty belfry]

dude I've just given up on my grind to 40 with randoms at this point

i just play to play

it ain't worth the stress lmao

[jaunty coral]

damn, so i tried some of the stuff told to me here last day or two. Like try HC + HV together, try the MK III shivs over the stabby ones and they're also very good (i literally disregarded them after testing both movesets, ngl lol this was my first match with them) and i did a pure melee cd stimm to pump rampage off asap. I ran it with chem dep. for crit, but my crit rate probably coulda been higher. only ran 3 stacks and I ran the 10% melee aura not crit.

but still, god damn that build slapped. Random h40 with a pickaxe/taunt ogryn, inferno bubble psyker and a chorus zealot + me on rampage mk III shivs. please ignore how much i died, i played like an absolute crack head diving into packs. It was purples + a big scab seed, shottgunners, maulers, scab ragers. I was on absolute melee elite pack heaven lol what a fun round. I died too much tho

[mighty belfry]

like if i was able to play a h40 with two zealots aggrodumping the hell outta me, i think i can comfortably say i'm good for it at this poiint

[river skiff]

Wait a minute what? I just did 3k dps to a crusher with dualpistols? LOL

[jaunty coral]

but holy crap those numbers. man hive scum SLAPS

that round gave me an adrenaline spike ngl

i was absolutely popping off lol

all players were good too

ogryn was very good

[mighty belfry]

that'll happen with hive scum when you get the class tbh

[jaunty coral]

i think 300 elites

might be the most ive EVER killed

in a single havoc 40 myself

even on flame psyker

idk

[mighty belfry]

and the crazy thing is

[jaunty coral]

i might have broken that on some rotten armor matches with uncanny inferno psyker

[mighty belfry]

you

[jaunty coral]

but the amount of shotgunners and ragers was INSANE in this seed, it was much fun for rampage. the perfect rampage seed

[mighty belfry]

will probably get more depending on the seed and map

[near mauve]

errrm its meant ot be challenging so its ok that its dogshit!!

[tropic crag]

FS will keep trying to make weaves until we like the weaves

[jaunty coral]

i was using dual stubs, no pickpocket, and rockets ofc dumped the point in jittery, pickpocket, to grab HV and also the 15% close dmg node up top

[mighty belfry]

the sad thing is that i like the concept but like

the modifiers

like, one modifier alone is fine imho

it's the fact that you get two.

and how those two very often compound into a sloggish experience

[tropic crag]

lol thats the weaves problem, its a really cool idea but basically design nightmare trying to fit it into a tide game... i'm actually rooting for FS to finally figure out the weaves problem

[low harbor]

they made havoc as the equivalent of modded VT2

not actually weaves

[near mauve]

reminds me of a funny thing that happened recently with one of sm2's attempts at funny diff modifiers
they made a modifier where if u stay close u cant regen armor or contested health, people pointed out that this shit affects bots and bots are glued to your ass so missions with this modifier are unplayable solo. The response from saber is "we won't change it because it makes the game harder" xddddd

difficult = good

[mighty belfry]

I'm pretty sure it's meant to be based off Weaves though.

Like the design of the mode itself is very similar.

Or at least this game's version of the such.

[low harbor]

the only thing they took from weaves was the rank ladder
but the game itself is meant to be like modded VT2

[mighty belfry]

also just, fatshark's insistence to make the modifiers annoying

like no one.

not a soul

[tropic crag]

weaves also wanted to be a scaling challenge mode with changing modifiers that was part of a separate system that you can't qp into... the difficulty doesn't matter at all here when it comes to the core designs... the first past was... really poorly done, this second pass melds in alot of lessons learned but still runs into the main problem of splitting an already niche community

[mighty belfry]

asked for purple enemies to have -300% impact

and yet somehow

someone at fatshark thought that was the play

who asked that person to cook???

[near mauve]

again u dont get it
Hard = good

its meant to be cbt!!!

[jaunty coral]

looking at the stats, in that match above the ogryn really played well. I was killing alot of stuff and he outdid me in specials, never went down once, helped the most players and had comparable kills/dmg to me, absolute chadgryn

[near mauve]

its good game design1!!

[mighty belfry]

maybe i'm actually going insane

because i started actually liking rotten armor

and now that it's gone

i miss it.

because purple is somehow more sloggish than ever.

[low harbor]

not wrong

[limber cradle]

Im a difficulty=good person and I don't even like some of this shit

[tropic crag]

it kind of is tbh, they gave a niche part of a niche community something they wanted (a wall to run into) while not taking too many resources from artists and engineers from the main focus... its a pretty good way to try to approach the problem of "theres no endgame" people

nightreign did the same thing with dark of night lol

[low harbor]

havoc absolutely did take resources away lol

[jaunty coral]

im afraid to say it, everyone hates me.
But my favorite AM modifier ever since it was new, is all melee all scab.
i liked rotten armor - i just wish i saw it 50% less, but if it rotated in once every 5-10 matches its fun, i miss it, i think the huge different looking hordes of armor were unique and fun puzzle to fight.

I do think it was up in my games tho WAY too often

[tropic crag]

not really... alot of the stuff they do in that mode could be done without real engineer hours... like it could be stuff that can be fiddled with by an artist thats shown how... so like... i think its a pretty economical solution

[near mauve]

and deep of night has the same issue where the diff is artifical

and half of the modifiers/curses are ass

[mighty belfry]

the idea of it, is good

but it's the practice of it that seriously needs work.

[tropic crag]

yeah but its not meant to be a focus for the game because if they focused and made that crowd happy then suddenly people are homeless and the studio is gone

[limber cradle]

Havoc might be actually truly good in like 3 years

[near mauve]

at this point havoc is THE game for the people who been playing fatshark games forever so i disagree

i dont think its that niche

[tropic crag]

yeah i think its a real design challenge... like its easy to come up with fixes that sound good or modifiers that seem like they would work great but wouldn't be much better... its not impossible to make it better but i think its an honestly hard design problem

[near mauve]

this game is mainly played by these people anyway outside update season lol

[jaunty coral]

i like havoc alot, im really happy we have it. and i hope they continue to improve it.
but i would LOVE new modes/challenges, the obvious being the #1 ask "darktide chaos wastes"

my main issue is, how do they make it enjoyable/hard enough for us h40 junkies? I just cant play AM anymore unless im really chilling and have it be super engaging unless all 3 teammates are on the floor constantly lol not bragging, its just the reality of playing h40 a lot

[mighty belfry]

it's pretty niche honestly.

[low harbor]

no lol it's not gonna have enough of a playerbase to justify pouring resources into overhauling the systems built around it to make it good

[mighty belfry]

at most like

[tropic crag]

i'm sorry to tell you but we are the niche, yeah we're the die hard fans but we aren't the majority of the money that keeps the investors willing to keep paying the bills

[mighty belfry]

a bit more than 1% of the playerbase really delves into havoc

[limber cradle]

We'll see, took em 3 ish years to make darktide in general good.

[mighty belfry]

we're just clinically insane and bother with it

[low harbor]

1% is a gross overexaggeration

[near mauve]

idk if this game even has a casual playerbase tho
it hits like 6k daily on steam lol

[low harbor]

maybe 0.001% or less

[near mauve]

most people come around big updates and dip

[tropic crag]

most of those players are casual players if we're being honest

[mighty belfry]

okay i don't think this game has that much of a playerbase

[limber cradle]

I will say havoc playerbase feels small cause you run into the same people a lot

At least ime

[mighty belfry]

i can name like

[tropic crag]

yeah some servers will have more or less people but you see the same people alot

[mighty belfry]

at least three people in this server that i see on at least a decently regular basis in havoc

[limber cradle]

I play on NA E which hypothetically has some of the most players on it iirc

[low harbor]

u can count consoles in and it's gonna look like roughly 1 person who engages with havoc frequently out of 10k players

[limber cradle]

I still see the same people

[tropic crag]

yeah because havoc, and high havoc, is a very small player base... honestly i'm barely there because i find mid havoc and auric more fun

and i like that i can play mid havoc as i want tbh lol

[sturdy linden]

makes no sense to have an ultra elite hardmode and gate it to premades only. Also having a wall to run into is fine, but the Venn diagram of difficulty and tedium is not a single circle, and the overlap is a shitty place to be in.

[low harbor]

the most fun havoc experience they've made yet

ironically

is not even havoc

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

[sturdy linden]

Moebians? Previous event?

(not gas, altars)

[low harbor]

current stim gas event

[sturdy linden]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/396860171541807105/1232138126441582642/mfw_deadass.gif

[mighty belfry]

Altars would be fucking cool to have in Havoc honestly

[low harbor]

yea it's ironically the most fun havoc-like experience

[limber cradle]

Altars were really fucking fun tbh

[sturdy linden]

gas can eat my ass

[near mauve]

gonna keep playing it and wrack up the penance progress

[low harbor]

altar was good but not havoc like

[sturdy linden]

altars were insane fun

[tropic crag]

yeah its hard to do correctly... difficulty is a hard thing to scale and its a hard thing to judge. All difficulty is artifical in video games and is either testing reflexes, game knowledge, or flexibility in applying that knowledge, or maybe something else... there is good and bad difficulty but its more about user experience than anything actually difficulty related

[sturdy linden]

genuinely played that event full through

[tropic crag]

its why i say its such a design problem

[low harbor]

if they add altar and stim-supply from both events into base game it'd be nice

[sturdy linden]

this one I did my 10 and dipped

[tropic crag]

because how the fuck do you make a tide game harder for this player base without also making it annoying as hell

[mighty belfry]

another thing that bothers me about havoc if i'll be honest

seeds

[tropic crag]

i like the current event because its just like "baby havoc"

[mighty belfry]

i dont know

[low harbor]

make altars like
optional events that summon 1 random boss (from monsters & captains) and a horde, but increase reward based on number of events completed

[mighty belfry]

i think the seeds being randomized so radically results in a weirdly inconsistent experience.

[low harbor]

dreg seed = tox bomber + gunner spam
scab seed = melee mixed horde 24/7

[limber cradle]

Completely agreed

[jaunty coral]

what do you guys think of jittery, vs dropping it for a good dmg node (15% close dmg, HV or something like it)
is it just a crutch, and if im playing weapons like knives and shivs, i dont need it?

would you say taking it on bonesaw is more reasonable?

[sturdy linden]

somebody on Reddit posted an utterly insane scoreboard for a malice mission the other day

had like almost auric level mob numbers

[tropic crag]

the problem is if you add something like that then suddenly it won't be "optional" because players will want to run it every single match and it will start to become a chore to everyone

[mighty belfry]

jittery is a crutch

don't need it

[jaunty coral]

ya I just played a really good match without it, and im second guessing if i should always be taking it

[mighty belfry]

you shouldn't be

[jaunty coral]

but sometimes crutches like that are fun

[tropic crag]

at that point in the tree on all my builds i just go straight down the middle

[mighty belfry]

it's a luxury talent at best.

[jaunty coral]

and it can be really nice to clutch with

[mighty belfry]

but not at all necessary to have.

[jaunty coral]

i have a soft spot for clutch talents

i love clutching lol

[mighty belfry]

arguably, i don't run it because you start to crutch on it without realizing

[low harbor]

no, grims and scriptures are alrdy pretty optional in this game

[tropic crag]

pet nodes are fine, i have a couple on scum i don't like dropping and a few on oggy

[jaunty coral]

i typically do then 1 pt for jittery, but im trying without it now and second guessing obviously, ill keep playing w.o for now see how it feels

[limber cradle]

I like jittery but I also like dodge maxxing

Like i use it cause it's fun

You defo do not need it

[tropic crag]

exactly, because they don't reward you basically at all, so it would either be something that they put in that no one does past the first time or something that everyone feels the need to do every time

[jaunty coral]

I play all 6 classes, going from jittery scum and just hard swapping to ogryn after a bit is really hard LOL

or even like, PS vet

[limber cradle]

Nimble+Jittery feels like I'm in a DBZ fight

[low harbor]

it's just a matter of risk vs reward

[limber cradle]

https://tenor.com/view/teleportation-goku-dragon-ball-z-super-saiyan-dbz-gif-17300403

[tropic crag]

yeah i agree with you, i think thats a very hard thing to do in this game tho, to reward the player.

[jaunty coral]

exactly who doesnt want instant transmission (off the side of the map....)

[limber cradle]

Lmfao

Crutch that will sometimes kill you if you're positionally challenged

[tropic crag]

i think nimble alone is more than enough tbh

[mighty belfry]

Nimble is busted

Honestly.

[tropic crag]

its really good

i think its the good kind of busted where it doesn't bother other players lol

[mighty belfry]

Dodges being so quick and fast that it also doubles as a movement speed node

It's nuts.

[limber cradle]

Ill be deadass scum movement has ruined every other class for me

It feels so clean in the dirtiest way possible

[mighty belfry]

IJ zealot is like

[tropic crag]

yeah since i use so much VT2 movetech by habit i really like how much faster nimble makes me

[mighty belfry]

The closest I can get to it.

And weapon specialist vet

[near mauve]

play ogryn after playing scum and you're like stuck in mud

but i like ogryn soooo

[tropic crag]

i'm currently swapping between oggy and scum regularly and it keeps taking me like 5 to 10 mins to readjust every time i swap

[limber cradle]

Buddy you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to play that fat bastard

[near mauve]

fat bastards are the best

[limber cradle]

Movement is the best stat in every game

[near mauve]

tbh getting used to ogryn was easy for me cause i mostly play heavier weapons

and those have ass dodges

[mighty belfry]

Ogryn can be plenty fast tbf

[tropic crag]

pretty sure you're undervaluing being a good boy who earned his rashuns

[near mauve]

i just like playing aggressive tanky frontliners as much as i enjoy "pls dont touch me" speedesters

[tropic crag]

oggys can lunge alot now adays after the changes, so they are slower in long distances but they can really extend their movement during swings

[limber cradle]

They should add the titanfall 2 grappling hook to DT

I think this would be perfectly balanced

[sturdy linden]

on Ogryn

[limber cradle]

Sure

Fat fucker needs something

[tropic crag]

whatever he grapples comes to him

[sturdy linden]

if you grapple anything below an enemy Ogryn, you yank it to yourself and kill it

if you grapple Ogryn or higher, you yoink towards them and there's a concussion on impact

the power of two Ogryn potbellies colliding

[tropic crag]

naw even bigger things they should pull, let me yank a beast of nurgle off a cliff like i'm playing roadhog

[low harbor]

we're at the moment in between updates where the silence gets deafening

with that said
if they drop cadian heavy armor this thursday you'll hear no complaints from me for at least a week

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

[limber cradle]

Awful taste Path

I'm glad you'll be happy tho

[low harbor]

this is peak sorry

[limber cradle]

I'm ngl.

I hate cadians and I wish they didn't have to gentrify roughly 1/3rd of vet cosmetics

There's one almost perfect elysian drop trooper helmet that has fucking cadia stands written on it

[low harbor]

that's ok

every other cadian cosmetic in this game been meh

I'd still much rather have this

[limber cradle]

Have they ever done Harkoni Warhawks?

[sturdy linden]

Krieg supremacy

[low harbor]

over the jacket/coat/coat/jacket/jacket/jacket/coat loop forever

[sturdy linden]

[low harbor]

lol

[low harbor]

ofc not

[limber cradle]

Goated armor

[low harbor]

they're like

completely unwilling to give vet armor cosmetics

[limber cradle]

They did Attilan Tunnel Rats who are also a complete nothing regi tbf

[low harbor]

just jacket/coat loop forever

[limber cradle]

Lemme find some fanart rq

[naive idol]

the ganger jacket for vet that makes your torso into a perfect rectangle

[tropic crag]

new halo is looking kind of generic

[limber cradle]

This is why I think the guard should get chaplains

[low harbor]

I wanted a generic military green armor and somehow fatshark couldn't deliver

just jacket/coat loop forever

[jaunty coral]

question, are the stabby shivs just objectively better than the mkIII's?
mk III's do have better horde clear, right? but obviously worse single/slower single (need to push atk to stab) is that more or less correct?
is there a good reason to ever use the III over the I considering the 1's have very good horde clear too?

[low harbor]

mk1 better

[tropic crag]

i made a dumb bleed meme build out of the mk3s where i took both bleed blessings and honestly... its pretty good that way

not with both bleed blessings

thats just meme

but they can work well, they are more work than the stabby ones tho

plus the comboing on the mk3 is alot more fun

[jaunty coral]

ya, i just had a really incredible game with the mk III"s tho and felt super fun, i think it was just a perfect seed for them. im trying to think of how the mk 1's woulda felt in their spot

also, this is one of my favorite vet drips, not all green but does it for me

[tropic crag]

theres def a market for "basic table top model" look but i think its a smaller one which is why we see the "cool different guy" looks so much lol

[low harbor]

the cool different guy can't all be jacket/coat

[tropic crag]

i wanted a slayer without pants for the entire life of vt2 because of the table top models

[low harbor]

but it feels like it

somehow vet just always gets jacket/coat

[tropic crag]

lol probably the same artists doing it over and over

[jaunty coral]

some of the old jackets look very bad too

the super boxy ones

very stiff and flat and awkward looking

[jaunty coral]

testing heavy sword, against some pretty rough h40 spawns (chaos spawn, + mixed horde with ragers, maulers crushers etc) just kinda testing its pure melee dueling big packs with solo spawn mod

and man, with rending stimm + rending on rampage

its really pretty good on hscum lol

[lavish forge]

Evil hive scum: "no no no no spit it out!!!!"

[near mauve]

ogryn gets all the armor

i have like 4 paid sets on bro and they're all armor/enforcer type shit

[zenith fern]

Biggest gets the biggest pile of armor

[low harbor]

I have heard ideas for og change tho idk they'd actually use them

[near mauve]

what ideas

[low harbor]

talent swaps

[near mauve]

i wouldn't mind

class has some questionable talent placement

[manic wolf]

Ogryn's gonna have had ten tree reworks before Scum gets a single cosmetic

[sturdy linden]

and still be worse off than Scum

[austere coyote]

based

I won't buy a cosmetic anyway

[sturdy linden]

what were the blessings for taxe7 again

HT/BM or HT/Shred?

[manic wolf]

HT/BM, though of late I've found SlaughterSpree/Decimator to provide much more juice for HV

[sturdy linden]

Actually, context, was asking as an accompaniment to Trauma staff on Psyker

Perhaps Shred over BM there?

[manic wolf]

I have no idea for Psyker tbh

I would still guess HT/BM, but thats because it tends to be pretty generically good

[calm aurora]

Ht bm, bm shred, ht shred works

[zenith fern]

They broke my fucking shivs

[upbeat gyro]

They need to add big brother to Auric Maelstrom, Auric Surström, where it spaws enemies like it was havoc without the modifiers

[reef spoke]

they should add rotten armor to standard

the shitters need to go back to heresy UwU

[solemn thorn]

or combine all maelstroms together except the tox gas

[upbeat gyro]

It could work training ground for higher havocs with the boss triggers and such too though

[solemn thorn]

dealing with hords of maulers and crushers while being smacked by a chaos spawn and hords of specials charging for you

[upbeat gyro]

So could learn in enviroment where losing doesnt drop your rank and so on

[solemn thorn]

want the old monster maelstroms, spawn alot of regular bosses instead of weakened

[upbeat gyro]

Everyone started as a shitter, if you gatekeep em like that endgame will eventually dry out and die

So stepping stones towards H40 without rank drops would be good

[solemn thorn]

except for the 6000 hour vermintide 2 players

[reef spoke]

noah's ark couldn't carry these animals

[verbal dew]

you get both now

[upbeat gyro]

I guess i was VT2 casual too

[solemn thorn]

barely

barely spawns bosses

play a monster maelstrom and first 5 minutes forget its a maelstrom

[upbeat gyro]

Atleast the titles reprsent em well

[mental trellis]

become the carry i see no problems

[upbeat gyro]

H40 dude joined our early H20s game lastnight, we were 3 and he insist we go like that as you "just speedrun it"

We wiped, those two other guys were constantly going down and had like rank 10 havoc, probably would have been better let em die and then try to rush ahead the map

[solemn thorn]

to zoom around is the greatest tactic

it allows you to zoom around a corner and run into a giant hord of nothing but crushers, and make you regret life choices

[upbeat gyro]

That h40 was friendly about it though so all good in end, we ended up then afterward steamrolling some H17 or something like that instead

[upbeat gyro]

Hivescum can do that and move on 4 times or more if you find another grenade box for RPG

[solemn thorn]

while deal with the problem when you can build up a giant mass of heretics and then lead them to your teammates before leaving again