hivescum-class

[stiff oracle]

So. If my teammate is running a stimm lab stimm that only uses one upgrade, if I use my stimm does my stimm activate or does his stay?

[mighty belfry]

At least for your own crate. So I don't see why it wouldn't for another scum's crate.

[stiff oracle]

I’m mainly asking bc my teammate IS running that, and I need to know if using my stimm while the supply is active is a waste or not

[raw kettle]

So if you use the stim before pack the pack only takes away corruption. You can have the charge time sync with stim recharge if you use stim before it but that's a talent.

[abstract inlet]

do bleed and tox form anti synergy with desperado/rampage?

[stiff oracle]

I’m asking if my teammate is running supply, and their stimm sucks. (Just the first upgrade into speed) does my stimm not work?

[mighty belfry]

Your stimm should work.

Because I'm fairly certain they do stack.

[stiff oracle]

Alright

[raw kettle]

Your stim might not stack is same points

[abstract inlet]

those are stimm bombs, very funny to use

[raw kettle]

I rarely find ones that use pack that same as mine

[dim moth]

no

multiple stimm supplies stack

even if they use the same effects

[raw kettle]

Only stim dependency stacks

I looked

[dim moth]

https://fximgur.com/a/JvD0Wlm

[abstract inlet]

do bleed and tox have anti synergy with desperado/rampage?

[raw kettle]

Bleed and tox are separate stacks

You can apply both

Toxin to max of 6 and I think bleed is 15

Wait

[dim moth]

toxin and bleed both have the same max stacks of 30

MOST sources of bleed have a stack cap of 16

but the debuff itself can go up to 30

[raw kettle]

They raised the max stack for toxin?

[dim moth]

toxin has always had 30

needle pistol is 6 on hit after all

[raw kettle]

Ohp you're right

[rough peak]

I have 2 weapons left to get to lvl 20 mastery on the hive scum... dual pistols and the bonesaw :\

[dim moth]

bonesaw goated

[raw kettle]

Bonesaw is fun

[rough peak]

I am going to start using it here pretty soon

I know it's better with attack speed from swift endurance

[dim moth]

chemical warfare

[raw kettle]

Use a melee/toxin build with it

[rough peak]

adrenaline frenzy also made it feel better on top of that

Talking about the bonesaw made me dc from the mourningstar >.>'

[raw kettle]

I use rampage and the attack speed/cdr stim with it

[pallid quail]

deserved tbf

[abstract inlet]

be a gremlin with bonesaw

[raw kettle]

Though fastest way to level weapons is making 30 of it green from store and consume them

[abstract inlet]

ignore minor damage boost (adrenaline), succumb to chem dependency

actually? I'll try adrenaline

[mighty belfry]

keeping it real, adrenaline honestly feels better for bone saw

just because of the attack speed bonus

[abstract inlet]

saw don't need it

just need to be gremlin

and use light 1 heavy 2

[mighty belfry]

it feels like shit without attack speed

[abstract inlet]

too bad :)

[raw kettle]

Yeah it is clunky without

[rough peak]

idk how good it will be with the bonesaw, but, it definitely feels amazing with the combat axe

[abstract inlet]

pff, im trying it with knives

[mighty belfry]

feels like you're swinging through molasses with the damn thing

[abstract inlet]

SUPER SPEED

[mighty belfry]

i hated using it with dependency

[rough peak]

Do it with the combat blade... which that combo is still probably better than the combat blade + martyrdom on zealot <.<'

[abstract inlet]

i meant shivs, lmao

THE CRUSHERS WON'T KNOW WHAT HIT EM

[rough peak]

I figured that's what you meant

that's why I said combat blade in that x.x

[raw kettle]

Shivs with attack speed makes you invincible

Except if crusher in your way

[abstract inlet]

sounds right to me, no wonder they're my favorite weapon in the game

[raw kettle]

Then need rockets

[abstract inlet]

nah, I'd whirlwind his face

im tempted to use blackout

[raw kettle]

Add toxin to it

Toxic blackouts are fun

Sounds like a name you would give an acid trip

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-drool-pokemon-gif-17046195

[cinder rampart]

man i’m kinda new to the game but this class is so fucking fun

[grand jewel]

class accurate too

[abstract inlet]

I keep dying, so I kinda have to...

[raw kettle]

Yes scum is a drugee that likes getting others high

[abstract inlet]

but my real question: does tox and bleed deny desperado?

[raw kettle]

What do you mean?

If the guns do those it will just do it

[mighty belfry]

if i recall, desperado was reworked to have it so enemies that were directly hit by a needle that are killed by toxin will still proc desperado's extension

mind you, directly hit

[abstract inlet]

if a highlighted target bleeds out, do I or do I not get desperado duration?

[mighty belfry]

meaning mk2 aoe does not work

[raw kettle]

Oh the death of those

[abstract inlet]

oh yeah there's an aoe, I should use that

[raw kettle]

But the aoe won't work for desperado since it's not considered ranged weapon damage

[abstract inlet]

I can't decide between coated weaponry (for shivs) or quick and deadly

ok, non aoe tox does give desperado duration

[raw kettle]

Isn't that the one that only works on throwing them?

Oh wait

It's the one with crit hits

[abstract inlet]

no, I apply a tox stack on crit

vs 15% raw damage

[raw kettle]

I think throwing them is auto toxin

[abstract inlet]

it does

always thought it was bleed, lol

[raw kettle]

I would do both

And sacrifice something you don't need as much

[abstract inlet]

Does double barrel even need bleed on crit? Or is that only good for bosses?

[drifting heron]

It makes it more consistent for horde and mixed horde clear

You need enough crit to compensate for losing Scattershot though

[abstract inlet]

but what's better? cleave or bleed on crit?

[drifting heron]

Manstopper

By leaps and bounds

Its hard to compare to infinite cleave

[mighty belfry]

You want that on vet

On this class, scattershot and manstopper is best from my experience

[abstract inlet]

do I combine it with scattershot or bleed? I feel like it's scatter

[drifting heron]

If you can crit consistently without Scattershot then take flechette

[abstract inlet]

I think I sit at +40% crit thx to chem dependency and butterfly

[drifting heron]

Not consistent enough

[abstract inlet]

thx

[unreal stirrup]

infinite cleave my beloved

[mighty belfry]

alright

finesse max rampage is funny

[fallen void]

i found an endangered species

dclaw scum

[raw kettle]

Lol

[mighty belfry]

ah yes, zealot, please triple dip the ammo box so the person with the better grenade gets nothing while you still had grenades in a h40

very cool

[pulsar aspen]

@mighty belfry What type of grenades?

[raw kettle]

Either rockets or toxin grenades I'm assuming

[zenith fern]

They were talking about the zealot triple dipping

So flame or stun nades

[raw kettle]

I think the zealot was the grenade horder

[mighty belfry]

it's not even the grenade thing

[pulsar aspen]

If it were Stun Grenades i could see why, although it seems extreme, but if it was Immolation Grenades....

[mighty belfry]

it's that they triple dipped when at that moment i had none at all

[pulsar aspen]

There is no redeeming quality in Immolation Grenades.

[raw kettle]

Toxin I feel is stronger than flame

[zenith fern]

did he like dropped a single bullet and kept dipping?

[pulsar aspen]

You don't have to feel it, they simply are.

[mighty belfry]

and then rushed to a dh on top of that

[mighty belfry]

pretty much!

[pulsar aspen]

I am sorry he did what?

[zenith fern]

Sounds like a griefer

[raw kettle]

That's exploding barrel prerequisite

[mighty belfry]

and they kept hogging the ammo from the vet too

genuinely just an awful teammate

[pulsar aspen]

[limber cradle]

CL 40 True Survivor behavior

[raw kettle]

Shoot barrels or burster next to them

[mighty belfry]

they did in fact, have a true survivor title

[pulsar aspen]

That would make you no better than him tho.

[mighty belfry]

I don't run that title lol

I stopped a while ago

[zenith fern]

True survivor? More like True Ammo Hogger

[drifting heron]

Finals brainrot kicking in

[pulsar aspen]

This is just awful behaviour.

[mighty belfry]

Like regardless of the title, come on

Have a little bit of awareness that if someone's nade icon is red, and yours is yellow

You may not need the nades.

[pulsar aspen]

I'd say, it is even worse if you dare wearing that title.

[mighty belfry]

Or if the vet's in orange and you're in yellow

Maybe let the vet have the ammo.

[limber cradle]

Atp I think the title is a red flag

[pulsar aspen]

What was their weapon of choice, may i ask?

[limber cradle]

I've never seen someone with it play well

[mighty belfry]

dueling sword, bolter

[pulsar aspen]

I see.

[mighty belfry]

which uh

[pulsar aspen]

I can imagine how that whole thing went.

[mighty belfry]

taking that to rotten armor as well

[pulsar aspen]

What a clown.

[limber cradle]

Reminder to lotion your tattoos if anyone needed it

[pulsar aspen]

@limber cradle Maybe you should play with us sometime.

[limber cradle]

Sure, I'm kinda out of practice tho

[pulsar aspen]

Do you stick with your team, is the main question here.

[mighty belfry]

Havoc pubs are rough right now OTL

[pulsar aspen]

"right now"?

[limber cradle]

Enough to not be a detriment.

[pulsar aspen]

Good, that makes you better than some of the clowns we have encountered

[mighty belfry]

Look usually in 40, there's some semblance that people know what they're doing, but as of late

Not even that's really applicable with the knuckleheads I've been running into

[limber cradle]

Oh I know I'm at least serviceable

I am normally not the first person to die, and I kill things pretty fuckin well.

I just haven't played the game in like 3 weeks cause the havoc mods are awful

[pulsar aspen]

All that is required is that you stick with the team, that is all. The rest can be worked on.

[limber cradle]

You on steam

?

[pulsar aspen]

When the time has come i'd ping you.

Or in advance if it becomes clear when the team will be ready.

[limber cradle]

Alright

If I'm not asleep I'll be around

[pulsar aspen]

Sure.

@mighty belfry A bolt gun into rotten armour is a .. questionable choice.

[mighty belfry]

Trust me, I was asking about that too but you know what. It's 40. Maybe this person is-oh they have chorus.

Oh.

Oh no.

[limber cradle]

Hypothetically

Can you just have 4 chorus zealots

And walk through a havoc

[woeful hill]

Yes

I did this before

[mighty belfry]

You'd need to be extremely coordinated probably but yes

[limber cradle]

That sounds kinda funny ngl

[woeful hill]

Wasn't a havoc but a A-I-II

Was really fun

I woke all the dh

[limber cradle]

I mean the logic follows right

[woeful hill]

Had 3 of them following me

[limber cradle]

Nothing gets through the chorus

[sly hollow]

A lot of rusty peeps coming back for the hivescum class

[mighty belfry]

i've ran into a pacifist zealot before

[woeful hill]

3rd was invisible

[limber cradle]

And you can chain activate them

[mighty belfry]

this was not a hive scum

[pulsar aspen]

You'd eventually run into the Twins, that would spell trouble.

[sly hollow]

I'm saying it in reference to the update as a whole

[woeful hill]

You can just walk away from rinda

[pulsar aspen]

As someone said earlier, you can see who played Arbitrator before Hive Scum.

[woeful hill]

And rodin is an easy los

[mighty belfry]

And if they have a clearance 40, it means they've completed a havoc 40 at least somewhat recently

[limber cradle]

Probably me

I say that often

[mighty belfry]

Whether they did that of any actual merit of their own is beyond me

[pulsar aspen]

It does carry a lot of truth.

[zenith fern]

rusty peeps coming back to the game*

[pulsar aspen]

Arbitrator, especially with the Cyber Mastiff, is very forgiving.

[raw kettle]

Hive scum with shiv rampage is forgiving too

[mighty belfry]

I.

Would not call it forgiving.

You're definitely a bit more tanky.

[pulsar aspen]

Well yes, but it would require a solid understanding of dodging, which is something a lot of people don't seem to have

[mighty belfry]

But you can still get your shit stomped on the second you slack. It is definitely a high high low low class.

But when you take advantage of those highs, the damage potential is bonkers.

[sly hollow]

Its sadly still on par with the other classes

[pulsar aspen]

How so?

[limber cradle]

Nothing is forgiving quite like "I ignore 2/3 disablers in the game"

[sly hollow]

I forget the content creator but he broke down the time to kill on boses through the different classes and hive scum was quite poor without its buffs and only just competitive with them

[pulsar aspen]

and "can take overheads to the face and not die"

[limber cradle]

Handheld class

[pulsar aspen]

Although that does require you to take True Grit and.. .. lets not start that debate again.

[limber cradle]

Lmfao

[pulsar aspen]

It's true tho.

[mighty belfry]

Hmm.

[raw kettle]

Oh talking about when dog knocks off things. Well shivs are throwable but once they on you you're done if you don't dodge

[limber cradle]

I genuinely think that's an insane take

[pulsar aspen]

That same concept applies to the Arbitrator

[mighty belfry]

I need to ask.

Who was this content creator?

[pulsar aspen]

If you don't dodge when the "Horde" is on you, you die.

But can Hive Scum remove dogs from themselves? No.

[sly hollow]

I forgot lol, it autoplayed while I was listening to something in the background

[raw kettle]

Nope just dodge or shiv throw

[mighty belfry]

cuz uh

I'm gonna be real

That's just not true

Hive Scum has crazy boss damage output.

[pulsar aspen]

https://tenor.com/bpGHG.gif

[raw kettle]

Yes it does rockets are best but most their weapons are fast enough to take them down

[mighty belfry]

Absolutely not

Using rockets on bosses is a trap.

[limber cradle]

If you think scum shiv throw even remotely equates to "I've been pounced by a dog and my dog will remove it" idk man

[mighty belfry]

You only do that to stagger them.

You really want rockets for crusher/bulwark lines.

[pulsar aspen]

Why do i get the feeling that we have two different conversations going on.

[limber cradle]

We probably are

[mighty belfry]

https://gyazo.com/b789f6bfa9f29d297f6cdf46381fdd16

that is all toxin and shiv damage making up that boss damage lol

And that was the halfway point of one of those h40 runs.

[woeful hill]

https://gif.fxtwitter.com/tweet_video/G1hHQ6oWAAAiPl8.gif

[pulsar aspen]

Those are some impressive numbers but.. with everyone else having that low boss damage, i have my doubts that this is a good approach

[woeful hill]

Badass skeleton banging shield gif.mp777

I should do a 0 damage delt h40 run

[mighty belfry]

the thing i'm saying is that rockets aren't really the best for boss damage like some believe

like, it'll do one big burst of it but hive scum's boss damage potential comes from its sustainability

[pulsar aspen]

I'd say it depends on the situation

As always.

[limber cradle]

"Can you beat H40 as a pacifist?"

[mighty belfry]

I wouldn't say that on this one. Like, the best use case for a boom bringer for bosses is mostly getting that stagger to control the situation better. But in terms of its actual raw damage, while it does quite a bit of damage, it's not really the best for actually dealing damage to them.

[woeful hill]

Would need to install scoreboard

But I don't care enough to

[limber cradle]

You don't run scoreboard?

[pulsar aspen]

I agree, but sometimes this is simply what you have to do.

[woeful hill]

Nah

[pulsar aspen]

(i in fact don't run any mods myself too)

[limber cradle]

I respect tf outta that tbh

[woeful hill]

Stopped caring awhile ago

Plus I understand the game enough that I know what's happening or what isn't happening

[limber cradle]

I think too many people use it to feed their egos

Tbqh

[woeful hill]

Yes

[pulsar aspen]

Yes

https://tenor.com/btlWG.gif

Yes-Yes

[woeful hill]

I used to send my 2k damage dealt scoreboard whenever anyone was boasting about a high damage run

[mighty belfry]

There are people who solely install scoreboard just to shit on others for "not doing enough"

I don't get that at all.

[limber cradle]

There are a lot of people in this discord who act like damage done is the end all be all metric of skill

[pulsar aspen]

It reminds me of a certain someone who got so mad at the prospect of potentially getting outdamage by a smyker that he proceeded to midly sabotage the mission to the point that everyone called him out on it.

[mighty belfry]

...What???

[raw kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/chicago-fire-violet-mikami-amen-to-that-one-chicago-amen-gif-10970481933124259730

[pulsar aspen]

Yes.

[woeful hill]

Found it

My best scoreboard

[pulsar aspen]

Including, but not limited to, running forward to flame, yes "flame" an approaching horde with a flamer to get more damage.

Yes, damage farming so he'd have more.

[raw kettle]

Lol

[zenith fern]

still need a rework

[mighty belfry]

That is.

Honestly pathetic.

[woeful hill]

Needs fatmangus

[pulsar aspen]

True.

Might i also point out that said player did run a... uhm. .reasonable selection of mods that "enhanced" his gameplay.

@mighty belfry And after everything he did, he barely outdamaged the Smyker while risking the entire mission doing so.

[lapis raft]

zealot is perfect why would it need rework

[zenith fern]

because the E said so

[pulsar aspen]

Zealot is far from perfect.

We could start by having 3 usable grenade slots.

[zenith fern]

So Ogryn needs another rework

[mighty belfry]

Look, I hate to be the one but uh, zealot is not perfect like

At all

[lapis raft]

well ok the grenades are dogshit :d

[mighty belfry]

It's not just that.

[pulsar aspen]

Only two of them.

[lapis raft]

but thats just a buff to not make them dogshit

[woeful hill]

My mind was made up around when I finished my H40 solo and got the best scoreboard.

[pulsar aspen]

But then again, thats my point of view.

[woeful hill]

That day was such a good day

[mighty belfry]

I mean you quite literally can't top this,.

[lapis raft]

but as far as theme goes, and abilities go they are all pretty well designed i would say

[mighty belfry]

You've won Darktide.

[woeful hill]

I'm trying for H40 with rot armor on zealot

[lapis raft]

way better than scum veteran and psyker at least, did not played about ogryn once so cant say about thatone

[limber cradle]

Tbh I stopped running it when I realized it made me actively detrimental and kinda toxic

[woeful hill]

Got to end event on excise vault

[pulsar aspen]

https://tenor.com/bpGHG.gif

[woeful hill]

Took 2 hours

[pulsar aspen]

I am going to stay out of that one.

[lapis raft]

in terms of design not power, you dont need to rework stuff to buff something

[limber cradle]

Playing long stints of GTFO also made me realize a scoreboard fundamentally doesn't fuckin matter.

You win or you lose.

It doesn't matter what happens inbetween.

[mighty belfry]

I think Chorus is a badly designed ability.

[limber cradle]

Insane to me Shivs have a better throwing knife, arb shield has a borderline better flash, and tox pool is a better immo

[woeful hill]

Chorus has no synergy with zealot

Funny enough

[mighty belfry]

Completely antisynergetic to the classe's entire gimmick.

[limber cradle]

Genuinely

I like no zealot nade

And one zealot ability

[woeful hill]

Fatmangus can change your view on shroud

[mighty belfry]

I honestly did start liking shroud relic a lot

[woeful hill]

It's too much fun

[lapis raft]

well it fits the class theme

[mighty belfry]

It is genuinely so good when you get the gameplay loop down.

[limber cradle]

I'll try it eventually

[mighty belfry]

And it's fun

[lapis raft]

shroudfield is most fun zealot ability for sure

[raw kettle]

I think they did the chorus to transfer over vermontide ability

[mighty belfry]

Shroud relic kinda converted me to maining zealot over vet if I'll be real

[limber cradle]

Idk what the chorus equivalent in vt2 is tbh

[woeful hill]

There was no chorus in vt2

Unless it's something in chaos wastes

[fast gust]

Technically bardin smoke bomb?

[woeful hill]

Ehhh

No

[fast gust]

Static chorus, gives thp

[raw kettle]

Yes

[limber cradle]

DT has no bardin smoke bomb tbh

[woeful hill]

I guess?

[raw kettle]

Static chorus

[limber cradle]

I genuinely think shroudfield should be bardin smoke

[woeful hill]

Kinda stretching it

But I can see it

[fast gust]

Ye kinda

[dim moth]

my view on shroud changed from seeing the RARE good zealot player in havoc running shroud thammer

and they killed literally every single boss for the entire duration of a havoc 30 mission by themselves

like instantly

[woeful hill]

Yes

Tis what it does

[limber cradle]

I appreciate those people

But i hate playing that build

[dim moth]

which has massively elevated shroudfield in my mind seeing someone good enough to do that consistently

[raw kettle]

Is it still possible to instant kill?

[limber cradle]

Yes

[woeful hill]

Yes

[dim moth]

yeah

[raw kettle]

I don't see much doing it anymore

[dim moth]

it's a one trick pony build but god if it isn't a good trick

[woeful hill]

100,000 damage is still possible with Thammer

Just needs some team support

[dim moth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230805863663796226/1451581719340908727/Warhammer_40000_Darktide_2025.12.19_-_08.27.08.11.mp4?ex=6959d012&is=69587e92&hm=a8fa992a924b1355d2749c9b048021fce0a0c5841516d50a417f43e0e5a8a86e&

[woeful hill]

FT, red stim, SC, etc. not all just some

[limber cradle]

3 shot

[woeful hill]

Hmmm

I wonder what's the highest damage hit a player can do

With max support

[lapis raft]

now only if the thammer zealots were actually doing that consistently instead of doing nothing :d

[woeful hill]

My guess is around 200k

[dim moth]

nah it'd be more

before on hit/dodge buffs thammer martyrdom hits a pogryn on the back for about 90K

leaving them barely alive

skllcrusher for 80% more

three sources of 15% more from another Zealots bleed, and Ogryn/Arbites increased damage taken on enemies hit

25% extra damage taken from ogryn taunt

[woeful hill]

Thunderous

Covering fire

[sterile depot]

How important is Sweet Spot if I'm running combat axe? Any important breakpoints?
If so, any advice on what point I should drop to get it? Everything feels important

[raw kettle]

Lol

[woeful hill]

Custom stims

[woeful hill]

It's an okay talent not needed majority of the time. Take if you have an extra point

[sterile depot]

Ty man

[dim moth]

another 15% increased damage taken from nuncio aquila

[woeful hill]

Pickaxe special

[dim moth]

yeah

60% brittleness from zeal flamer+thunderous

[raw kettle]

My fav

[woeful hill]

80 with arby gun shells iirc

[dim moth]

oh that's its own brittleness too?

weird

[woeful hill]

I do remember reading about it

Unverified

[raw kettle]

Talking about the special round?

[woeful hill]

Yes

[dim moth]

tho actually scum for a strength stimm supply with finesse is prob strongest offensive boost another class can give

[raw kettle]

I think it's brittleness

[mighty belfry]

Finesse boost with rampage is nuts.

[woeful hill]

But you only can have 3 teammates....

This breaks the calculation

[dim moth]

yeah that's the problem

[woeful hill]

Drop zealot probably

[dim moth]

scum stimm supply is the strongest team damage boost in the gmae

[woeful hill]

No wait

[dim moth]

but it's also the only one they can do

[woeful hill]

Chorus buff

Drop arby

[dim moth]

yeah can get skullcrusher from ogryn

arby drop is losing 30% increased damage taken from a talent and nuncio

[raw kettle]

Probably scum, ogryn, and arb

[dim moth]

for scum's 20% strength

[woeful hill]

Chorus is 30% with BBB being 15%

And flamer brittle

No wait

You are the zealot

[dim moth]

yeah

[woeful hill]

Nevermind

[raw kettle]

Yes

[dim moth]

has to be shroudfield for big number

[woeful hill]

Need shroud

[raw kettle]

Marty flame and shroud

Or can have arb do the brittle since it takes forever to switch flame

[mighty belfry]

I would imagine one would run throwing knives with flamer

Specifically to bypass that issue.

[hybrid path]

I had such a good idea for a name cause I wanted to rename my hivescum but fatshark censored it :(

[raw kettle]

I mean they could

But how much secs does the brittle last?

Isn't it like 3 or 5

You would have to be very quick about the shroud and hammer

And if I remember right you have to hold the hammer for a while to get max damage

Lol and hope nothing gets in the way of the boss head

[unreal stirrup]

chorus require commit to 5 pulse though

during that time you're not doing damage at all

[dim moth]

okay pal we're engaging in hypotheticals here

[raw kettle]

Lol hey it happens

Though either way whatever the thammer zealot is contributing to their own buffs we got to consider the time of being on the melee weapon, popping shroud, holding hammer for max damage, and aiming

[shut turtle]

whats the best path for the stim lab

[raw kettle]

Always good to have at least cdr

Atk speed or strength should be 2nd choice

[woeful hill]

All but top left

[zenith fern]

Never pick toughness path

[raw kettle]

Yes toughness regen is pointless because require no melee attackers and group coherency

[winged bay]

the toughness you get from using a stim would have to be over time to be potentially any good

[unreal stirrup]

toughness coherency regen does work when there enemy actually

doesn't fix the issue of it being shit

[raw kettle]

Lol oh thought you can't be a target of melee or take damage

Either way it's hardly noticeable. Though toughness replenishment is way better

[winged bay]

25% toughness on use is way better?

[raw kettle]

But definitely not worth the points for that tree

[winged bay]

that's like two melee swings

[raw kettle]

Hmm? What you on about

Everyone said don't touch that toughness tree

[rough peak]

Yeah, coherency regen doesn't work near enemies

meanwhile 25% toughness restored does work near enemies <.<

[raw kettle]

Lol yes but not worth the points dumped

[rough peak]

Yep

[raw kettle]

I honestly prefer attack speed and cdr in stims

[rough peak]

I like the strength and attack speed combo, myself. I know the cdr path is going to be useful, I just really like popping 20% strength and nuking a monster with the rockets/needle gun

[raw kettle]

If range probably just cdr

For faster stim regen

[rough peak]

Getting hitstun immunity from my stim is nice, as well

[livid raven]

for faster desperado regen you mean?

[raw kettle]

Well just having the points in one tree cuts down the stim

[livid raven]

oh so your stim recharges faster yeah

[raw kettle]

Yes lol

I wouldn't get much from the other 2 trees anyway

The stagger for the autopistols is good enough

[rough peak]

You could use the 20% strength and 35% finesse/15% crit if you really wanted to pump a bit more out of them quickly, but, that does come at the cost of more cd

[raw kettle]

And desperado would be my main focus

[rough peak]

and 15% rending if you want to be a psychopath and shoot crushers, ig

[raw kettle]

Lol

Suicide. I prefer rocket

[rough peak]

I love the rocket so much, I miss it every time I have the chem nades

[raw kettle]

Yeah goes both ways for me

[rough peak]

Chem nades just haven't popped off hard for me, yet. I know they are good, I just really like having a tactical nuke

[raw kettle]

Some situations I'm like I needed the chem in others I'm like I need them rockets

[rough peak]

I've gotten chem nades to be very useful, but, it doesn't provide that instant dopamine of blowing stuff up

[raw kettle]

Would be cool to have both and split the ammo

[mighty belfry]

I generally think chem nades are better tbh

[rough peak]

The chem nades have saved my ass from a hound 1 or 2 times, and from ragers >.>

I threw one at my feet and I fucked up my dodge against the hound... the hound got melted while chewing on my face

[raw kettle]

Lol yeah also good for a shield when picking people up or doing mission objectives

[rough peak]

Chem nades provide a better long term use, more than likely... but popping that 20% strength and nuking a monster is so much fun for me

It's practically a ranged thammer

[unreal stirrup]

chemnade is well chemnade

while boom bringer is a aoe nuke that knockdown everything that it doesn't kill

shit suck ass against bosses don't use it

[rough peak]

It might not be great against bosses, but, it is still funny to me to nuke them(I don't recommend doing it tho)

That has unironically saved a couple randos from the daemonhost they triggered

Daemonhosts are a lot harder to get direct hits on, tho

I usually have to wait for them to whack the rando a few times and pause <.<'

[livid raven]

they are so bad against bosses

[upbeat gyro]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/user/br1ckst0n/guide/the-complete-hive-scum-operative-guide how legit info is this?

And also, any penances i should aim to go for while leveling? Like bad abilities you dont wanna use later on anymore

[zenith fern]

All scum abilities are genuinely good

[zenith fern]

Just play for fun, you might be completing lots of penances without even looking at the requirments

[flat lotus]

This shit reads like ChatGPT

[livid raven]

legit but it only says like

basic shit

yeah this is all obvious stuff

[flat lotus]

Yeah this is absolutely AI generated

This is dogshit lol

[livid raven]

like, you could ask a damnation hive scum player and he would tell you the same stuff

[flat lotus]

The best way to play Gunslinger is to never stop moving. Slide into fights, time Enhanced Desperado before you push into danger, burst down specials, then vanish. It feels like a constant flow of motion, adrenaline, and perfect reload timing.

What

[fast wind]

"The Hive Scum arrive in Darktide as something Tertium hasn’t seen before" But.. they live there?

[livid raven]

yeah this i entirely disagree with

you just smash into the horde with your guns

[flat lotus]

It's AI slop don't expect it to get shit right

[zenith fern]

spray and pray into everything and kill your own teammates because you shot the bursters that they were about to shove

[flat lotus]

OP has made other guides too

[livid raven]

also i understand it's the same site but man, i wouldn't advise following the builds in gameslantern

the top rated one is a bad desperado build

[flat lotus]

OH HERE WE GO LMAO

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/user/br1ckst0n/guide/how-to-succeed-in-havoc-mode-in-warhammer-40000-darktide

AI GENNED HAVOC GUIDE LETS READ

[fast wind]

funnily hive scum arent very mobile in some sense, they could use more move speed bumps specifically to benefit melee rampage

[livid raven]

they are very mobile overall but

some weapons still make them slow

[raw kettle]

Switch to light weapons

[real dew]

Man, shredder autopistol works

[fast wind]

desperado makes them mobile

[livid raven]

and some of those weapons are even their signature weapons

[livid raven]

imo it's the worst of the desperado holy trinity

but still very valid

and doesn't deafen my ears

i was a vraks hater but then i converted

[flat lotus]

I prefer the feel of dual autopistols but the vraks is absolutely devastating

You can't go wrong with either

[fast wind]

very terrible guide for havoc, not a surprise for ai

[livid raven]

was that guide before or after ogryn rework

[flat lotus]

I could make something better in an hour and I am far from a top tier player

I've completed h40 a handful of times

[fast wind]

it just tells everyone to take crowd control and support stuff

[flat lotus]

Explaining the modifiers is about the bare minimum for what a guide to havoc should be

[livid raven]

it also doesn't go into specifics

yeah definitely AI

doesn't talk about mutators, ending checklist, generic advice

[raw kettle]

Oh? Most of those builds AI generate?

[fast wind]

this guys articles are ai on the website

[livid raven]

not the build, but the havoc (and i imagine the hivescum) guide is pretty obvious AI

[raw kettle]

Ah

It just sucks for new players that fall for those. The ones that especially lack knowledge of the game

[livid raven]

i mean the hivescum guide is mostly right

[flat lotus]

I'd love to make a big Hive Scum guide like some of the other classes have.

[flat lotus]

I would just need to have some contributions

[livid raven]

in the same way i am right when i say the USA is south of Canada

[raw kettle]

Lol

[fast wind]

stuff like "Use med-stations strategically, especially before major fights." is a clear sign its ai

[livid raven]

just a bunch of generic and obvious stuff

actually are these guides featured by the site or

ah no, just guides everyone can make

[flat lotus]

No anyone can make guides

[fast wind]

still looking up beginners guide it likely gets some people

[flat lotus]

the desperado part is nonsense

[livid raven]

i also think it's very funny how they make a hivescum guide while not having published any hivescum build

[fast wind]

honestly looking at some other guides on the site you can tell when a human wrote it because they're more specific

[flat lotus]

all of the abilities are plenty viable and you will likely get the penances while playing

both dlc classes have very easy penances

in comparison to the launch ones

[livid raven]

oh wait

that guy

is a mod in gameslantern's discord server (and i imagine the site itself)

lmao

[flat lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/squid-game-oh-my-god-bruh-saleswoman-oh-my-god-bruh-gif-2398788864743270124

[livid raven]

also, it's featured by the site

[zenith fern]

except the toughness stimm penance

[fast wind]

The dude that did the ai articles is in this discord

[ornate fiber]

At long last

[livid raven]

yeah

[flat lotus]

Yeah that needs to be taken down

gives no particularly useful info

and is wrong in a couple places

[limber cradle]

Speaks for the average quality on gameslantern

[ornate fiber]

Wut

[flat lotus]

OH GOD I DIDNT SEE THAT

LMAO

[livid raven]

to be fair this was a year ago

tho

[flat lotus]

I have never taken toughness regen on ogryn

[livid raven]

ogryn was already a toughness generation machine irrc

[flat lotus]

It's not necessary

[ornate fiber]

Psyker having the best thoughness regeneration aside, how the fuck is it gonna help "squishy" Psyker

[livid raven]

it was supposedly "good" before ogryn was reworked as he had no means to generate toughness otherwise

[fast wind]

its the other stuff like putting that on your og wont make the psyker more tanky

[livid raven]

also that

[flat lotus]

Is there a way I can get in touch with Gameslantern because these guides are actually going to throw new players off and absolutely should not be featured

[livid raven]

i mean again

made by a mod of the site/discord

i wouldn't bet on it

but they have a discord server, that mod is online right now

[fast wind]

could tell the dude its blatantly obvious its ai but that probably wont do anything

[ornate fiber]

The most insane part of this guide is realizing Havoc is over a year old

[livid raven]

then again if you are looking for advice or builds in gameslantern by yourself you are prob cooked anyway

[fast wind]

yeah... its probably the people that need help the most looking up that though

[ornate fiber]

If you think its bad

dont check the author's other builds

all more recent (one month ago)

[livid raven]

he has like

only vet builds so i can't really say

[ornate fiber]

they are terrible

[livid raven]

i dunno i think it's rather ok

[fast wind]

Yeah doesnt look great

[ornate fiber]

"Just snatch all the ammo" guide

[livid raven]

oh wait

[fast wind]

"it shreds everything" sure it does

[livid raven]

well i don't think this does much to crushers, for sure

[ornate fiber]

I can think of a few issues

[upbeat gyro]

Except the Arbites one that is bugged and stays at 0 no matter what

[ornate fiber]

Classic "you just had to be here when it worked" moment

[livid raven]

skill issued by fatshark

[ornate fiber]

Literally FOMOed out of a penance

wait

the author made a hive scum guide

[livid raven]

yeah

that's where the discussion started actually

[ornate fiber]

and its seemingly AI too, by the way its written

[livid raven]

it's very AI

it's also mostly right but very very generic

so generic it's actually hard to be wrong

[fast wind]

so I can assume next class will get one too

[ornate fiber]

coherency ? What the frak does scum needs coherency

[zenith fern]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/168926109411442688/1219940715505651762/IMG_8901.gif

[livid raven]

oh didn't see that one

[zenith fern]

Never let the darktide players cook again

[livid raven]

yeah hivescum is maybe the most autonomous class

[ornate fiber]

probably the only class in game that doesnt have a skill to benefit from coherency

[flat lotus]

LOL

[livid raven]

i always like taking a piece of text and asking an AI if it's composed by AI

[flat lotus]

afaik all of scum's perks will say "self and coherency" rather than just coherency

[livid raven]

actually gives some good info

[flat lotus]

when i play my desperado scum i am always kiting around and focusing gunners and bombers

[livid raven]

i just mow down everything in front of me

[flat lotus]

teammates be damned

[livid raven]

i focus specialists because i'm built like that regardless

[ornate fiber]

There is no official scoreboard, but, also, chem nades get you top of scoreboard anyway

[livid raven]

well i think everyone should focus specialists

[flat lotus]

"You're not x, you're y" or "it's not X - it's y" is a chatgpt classic

[livid raven]

i usually end up topping coherency in the scoreboard as desperado funnily enough

[ornate fiber]

I hate how right you are

[fast wind]

people coming out of school having used ai to cheat, then bringing it into their hobbies out of stupidity or worse they think this is what ai should be used for

nobody wants to read an article that even the author didnt want to write

[upbeat gyro]

It was super generic, but i have clearer picture of the class now after reading it, so i suppose it did its job adequately

[livid raven]

i wouldn't rely on what's written

[fast wind]

you probably could've got better info looking at fatsharks release notes for them

[ornate fiber]

This guide is crap. It makes no mention of what actually matters, merely tells you what you should already know

[livid raven]

does this even talk about the crate

[upbeat gyro]

After 2 missions without anything unlocked, how should i already know everything about the class?

[livid raven]

glass cannon class with strong offense

[upbeat gyro]

Besides that i should slap on Vraks Infantry on when i unlock it

[livid raven]

that's just that without all the generic stuff your grandma could have told you

[ornate fiber]

You are at the point where it doesnt matter anyway. Just level up your class first

you cant use the weapons and skills anyway yet, so why look it up ?

[upbeat gyro]

Game has tendency to leave lot of crucial info untold if you just rely on it for it

Why im looking from outside sources and here

[fast wind]

sometimes its better to learn from playing then learn from some bozo who couldnt even be arsed to write an article

[livid raven]

reading the talent in front of you is more than enough

[ornate fiber]

Also, this "guide" doesnt teach you anything about weapons, or perks you should use

It makes no mentions of shivs, the best melee for scum, or rocket launcher, its very useful blitz

[flat lotus]

You don't have to use Vraks IAG. Dual autopistols is also a great pick

[upbeat gyro]

I just leveled arbites and guides, gameslantern builds, youtube videos and these discord class chats were lots of help

[flat lotus]

Gameslantern builds are always sketchy

[livid raven]

oh man arbites gameslantern builds lol

[dire badge]

im running CD stim with a bit of str. Cus im doing a melee build with knives, is it a good idea to do CD? That way I can have rampage up almost twice asm uch

[flat lotus]

And just go for big number

[livid raven]

arbites' are especially bad

[upbeat gyro]

There are few solid ones there too

[livid raven]

like, at least hivescum has reginald builds as top rateds

[pallid quail]

it only sounds like that cus it was trained on buzzfeed. if ai was scraping hemingway maybe it wouldnt suck ass

[flat lotus]

Don't worry

I'll be the one to make HemingwAI real

[ornate fiber]

ok, i'm sorry, but

this is the top ranked arbites build on the website

and its garbage

[livid raven]

oh christ

[limber cradle]

You deadass rn

[pallid quail]

[upbeat gyro]

This is almost identical to what i run atm, and my own i got from asking around in chat for few days https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9f6108ec-d547-448f-b847-38fc0e21ccce/arbys-op-melee-meta-havoc-40

[fast wind]

this website is a community of those randos I get in my lobby that just suck

[pallid quail]

https://tenor.com/view/succulent-chinese-meal-democracy-manifest-police-fake-gif-16970184

[livid raven]

it has some good ones but they are most often not the top rated or anywhere there

that's the most generic cookie cutter melee build for arbites tho, yeah

[ornate fiber]

this one is a bit better at least

[upbeat gyro]

Difference is i run True Grit since i dont have overblown estimation of my own skill, mistakes happen

[flat lotus]

the curios stink

[upbeat gyro]

Id rather have the Talent Tree save me, than teammate when im downed

[pallid quail]

theres nothing wrong with taking true grit. its not taxed n its rly good

[novel oracle]

they managed to only get 1/3 perks right

[ornate fiber]

stamina regen could be replaced with more thoughness, i"d say.

[pallid quail]

mmmm im so full of crusher overheads

[flat lotus]

the talent picks are pretty normal to me

[livid raven]

the curios are

ehehe

curious

[upbeat gyro]

I run Gunner Resistance in my curios

[novel oracle]

toughness
gun resist
revive speed

i will not be hearing revive speed slander

because you are wrong

[livid raven]

CDR perk on btl is crap imo

[pallid quail]

if u take all health curios u can eat 7 yummy crusher overheads

[flat lotus]

toughness, gunner res, then your third can be whatever

[novel oracle]

no i need the .1 seconds you dont understand

[ornate fiber]

I wouldnt use gun resist anymore since the first version of Havoc

[upbeat gyro]

I took also some hitpoints so i have 210 to make True Grit work better

[livid raven]

trueeee

[flat lotus]

thats the idea for most classes tbh

[livid raven]

at 12%, the cdr discount on btl is uhh

2.1 seconds

[ornate fiber]

I have no idea how you guys get shredded by gunners so much you need resistance on all your characters

[flat lotus]

havoc

[lapis raft]

i run triple gunner resist, cry about it

[upbeat gyro]

Moments like picking up downed player and suddenly someone comes shooting you

[ornate fiber]

Yeah, and Gunners here havent been an issue since first edition

[livid raven]

i play hivescum desperado so i run 0 gunner resist

[pallid quail]

theyre the most common elite by an imperial mile. theres no reason not to take ir

[flat lotus]

Also the game just loves to spam gunners in general

[upbeat gyro]

For players who dont have dodge slides keymapped somewhere easy to use, id always recommend triple gunner resist

[novel oracle]

thankfully you said most classes
cuz my currently played zealot build is NOT that

[ornate fiber]

Thats good, cause they are easy to kill

not every build can handle hordes of crushers, but most builds can handle gunners

[fast wind]

gunners if they get going and have no enemies to regen toughness on, can be pretty damaging

[ornate fiber]

The only time I'd be scared of gunners is final toll gunners with teammates that dont finish off enemies

cause then, it becomes everybody's problem

[fast wind]

I wouldnt take resist against them but they do hurt

[upbeat gyro]

When you start the game, those tutorials should include dodge sliding and telling how good it is against gunners and keymapping by default should make it easy to use

[livid raven]

it is easy to use

[novel oracle]

its more they are the most common elite, so gunner resist reduces how much chip youd take in a fight, makes it easier to push them, lets you safely exist in situations comfortably that you wouldnt otherwise, and sometimes pull rezzes off while being shot at

[upbeat gyro]

Mine is in ALT now so i can just spam Shift+Alt constantly

[flat lotus]

darktide doesn't really explain any of its deeper mechanics at all so it's really not the fault of most players

[fast wind]

What else would you bind it to its sort of intuitive already

[livid raven]

Gunners include plasma gunners, shotgunner, elite gunners and normal chaff shooters right?

and reapers?

[novel oracle]

plus gunners become your worst fucking nightmare if youre clutching

[ornate fiber]

Uh ?

dodge ? Slide ?

[novel oracle]

just at a distance chipping your toughness away as youre locked in melee elsewhere the entire time

[fast wind]

reapers get killed in most cases but rarely they get going and splatter you

[flat lotus]

not the chaff ranged enemies no

[ornate fiber]

Hell, i'm more scared of mutants than gunners when i'm clutching, regardless of classes

[livid raven]

owned

[trim wind]

reapers and gunners

[ornate fiber]

reapers dont count

[novel oracle]

reapers do

its reapers and gunners

[trim wind]

Yes they do

[pallid quail]

yea cus darktide maps are mostly well lit unobstructed flat surfaces

[flat lotus]

you know what always scares me the most though

fucking tox bombers

i loathe them

[clever fjord]

my clutch killer is mainly is getting cornered and flamed

[ornate fiber]

If its not flat, then you shouldnt be in view of gunners most of the time for them to be dangerous

[flat lotus]

Actually no

flamers

[livid raven]

with the elite and special spam darktide devolved into, bombers and flamers in general are obnoxious

[novel oracle]

sometimes you dont get a choice

[flat lotus]

because the gas can be escaped but if you get boxed in and a flamer comes up its gg

[novel oracle]

sometimes your choice is a dead end or a hallway of gunners you may not be able to engage with

one is dangerous
the other is an instant loss

[ornate fiber]

The only class where i'd consider gunner resistance is ogryn, because mobility and hiding arent even safe with it

[pulsar aspen]

It would be advisable to consider gunner resistance on ALL classes.

[ornate fiber]

I'd much sooner run CDR and get my abilities faster

[pulsar aspen]

Indeed you should, in addition to Gunner resistance.

[lapis raft]

well whats stopping you from running both

[pulsar aspen]

The two aren't mutually exclusive

[ornate fiber]

well, also got to use ally pick up and thoughness

ally pick up is also not negociable in today's ages

[novel oracle]

i dont see any valid argument for cdr when the only ability that justifies it is on a class with baked in cdr in every path that brings it back to not worth it territory

[pallid quail]

i never take revive speed cus my allies just shouldnt go down

[novel oracle]

its only worth it if youre using ability off cooldown majority of the time

and youre not

[livid raven]

isn't it pretty ok on desperado

well you do have the stim

[lapis raft]

i run triple of these on crate

[novel oracle]

and you have vultures mark and pickpocket

[ornate fiber]

its god for every class, but apparently, people are allergic to using abilities more often

even though abilities are so op, fatshark nerfed all the cdr we had

[pulsar aspen]

@lapis raft You can remove one Gunner Resistance, because you won't get 60%, but more like something around 48%

[lapis raft]

no

[pulsar aspen]

Yes.

[lapis raft]

it doesnt have diminishing returns

[ornate fiber]

they are right

it has

[lapis raft]

i know how it works

[pulsar aspen]

it does.

[lapis raft]

you guys should learn how to math

[livid raven]

it does, they are multiplicative

aren't they

[novel oracle]

its diminished in terms of how it reads on paper

[lapis raft]

yes, every curio has same value

20% less damage taken

[novel oracle]

but not in its effect

[pulsar aspen]

It is not about math, but about calculations.

[upbeat gyro]

Ability CDR on Arbi with Break The Line is fun for being able to spam it constantly, and you get +50% dmg from it too

[ornate fiber]

thats not how it works, fatshark style

[lapis raft]

every curio increases your ehp by 25%, its very simple

it is exactly how it works

[livid raven]

what

[ornate fiber]

My man is playing a fatshark game and still trusting the numbers on screen

[upbeat gyro]

3x gunner resistance is 195% effective i read

[livid raven]

what

[novel oracle]

lets use bigger numbers to make it more easy to visualize
assume gunner dr is 50%

if you have 1 gunner dr and 100 toughness
thats effectively 150 toughness for gunners

[lapis raft]

125

1 / 0.8

[novel oracle]

I JUST SAID

[livid raven]

what am i reading

[limber cradle]

From Ainz

[lapis raft]

ah ok

[pulsar aspen]

@limber cradle Thought as much.

[ornate fiber]

You were correct

never doubt yourself, even when you are wrong

[novel oracle]

if you have 2
thats effectively 225 toughness
if you have 3
thats effectively 337 toughness

[lapis raft]

yea and thats not diminishing returns

[livid raven]

it is

[lapis raft]

its always 1 / 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8

[pulsar aspen]

https://tenor.com/bpGHG.gif

[livid raven]

you are getting less resistance for the second and third perk

[ornate fiber]

WHAT DOOO YOUUU MEAAAANN ITS NOT DIMINISHING ?

[novel oracle]

each are 50% increases in terms of how much EHP youre getting

[livid raven]

are you being intentionally obtuse

[ornate fiber]

HOW DO YOU GO FROM 60 TO 48 AND NOT CONSIDER IT DIMINISHING RETURN ?

[lapis raft]

i mean i am not gonna explain you basic math

lol

[novel oracle]

so the actual effect doesnt deminish, but the number on paper of what your dr is is getting lower returns

[livid raven]

you should look up the definition of diminishing returns

[novel oracle]

so again

[upbeat gyro]

Arbites class chat is very chill compared to this place, what kind of stims they handout here?

[novel oracle]

its just the way the dr value looks

[flat lotus]

i for one love my cdr

[ornate fiber]

Every new class's chat becomes general chat but with pictures enabled

before arbites, it was zealot's

[flat lotus]

zealot chat is still like that though

[limber cradle]

No one uses arb chat cause it's awful tbqh

[pallid quail]

you missed the math lesson arby chat like a week ago. it was rly quite something

[livid raven]

what was it

arb chat is dead as sin

[pulsar aspen]

Iam far from demanding to put specific things on your curios, do what you want.

[novel oracle]

@lapis raft IM DOING IN

IM ABOUT TO BUST OUT A WARFRAME VIDEO

TO EXPLAIN IT

[pallid quail]

like 3 days of dudes arguing over scoreboards from running into each other in pubs

[ornate fiber]

save your time, dude

If they dont get it with something so easy, there is no point

[pallid quail]

like just a complete inability to do basic arithmetic

[livid raven]

amazing

[novel oracle]

no

im saying HES RIGHT

[lapis raft]

my dude you are the one missing the point not me

[novel oracle]

ive timestamped it because the math of damage reduction is functionally identical

https://youtu.be/zLYN4nszEDo?si=_YKbnBRNQ6H25Jcf&t=876

[pulsar aspen]

"Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"

With that being said, be on your way.

[novel oracle]

my favorite part is him saying that its hard to grasp just looking at the percentage, because its misleading

which is exactly whats happening here with gunner resist

[pallid quail]

they couldnt figure out who did more dmg

[ornate fiber]

Effective health has nothing to do with the simple fact that the statement "3 gunners curio get me 60% resistance against them" is wrong. Not to mention gunners are the definition of "death by a thousands needles", in which case damage resistance is not as impactful as getting hit by any other enemy

[lapis raft]

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php i recommend this great site it even has explained what % change means on the right

[livid raven]

what do you mean? like, surely you just look at the number

[novel oracle]

nobody is saying they give you 60% dr

[ornate fiber]

Except they fucking did ?

[novel oracle]

we are saying "each gunner resist gives 20% dr"

[novel oracle]

which is a true statement

[livid raven]

oh that's crazy, i also recommend looking at this https://www.britannica.com/money/diminishing-returns

[lapis raft]

do you know the difference between multiplication and addition

[livid raven]

may help you out

[pulsar aspen]

🍿

[lapis raft]

if the resists were additive they would actually have exponential returns as every next value gives you more ehp than previous

[pallid quail]

i suspect some interlocutors may have forgotten how toughness works and that its not just a flat overshield like in halo

[livid raven]

no, they would have the expected returns as every 20% reduces the intitial damage by 20%

as it stands, the first one is 20%, the other are less

[novel oracle]

also i dont see how 100 hits dealing a like 5 damage in a short window vs 2 hits dealing 250 damage in the same time makes much of a difference when it comes to dr

they both deal damage

[ornate fiber]

3 gunners curios will not get you 20% each time, thats the definition of diminishing returns. Its also why people have been saying, for years, that one sniper curio is enough since 3 will not have the impact it should

[livid raven]

which is the definition of diminishing returns

[pallid quail]

hence the failure to grasp the implication of effective toughness

[livid raven]

also

the starting discussion was about diminishing returns, not about multiplicative or additive

[upbeat gyro]

Why is the conversation still going when someone even posted the actual numbers?

[pulsar aspen]

Because they aren't convinced by it.

[ornate fiber]

because apparently, people think we are talking about effective health

we are not

we never were

[pulsar aspen]

Indeed we did not.

[novel oracle]

its the other side of the same coin

[pallid quail]

its way too stupid to explain without digging up the whole thing but i recall some controversy over whether dmg to elites counted but then they couldnt count that high etc

[livid raven]

also you know

told us we don't know basic math

[ornate fiber]

Its not, because thoughness isnt health, and health is impacted by how much thoughness you have. You could be regenerating thoughness while getting shot, and having X amount of resistance could be the difference between bleeding health when getting hit in melee, or not

[novel oracle]

its literally just looking at the other side of dr
rather than looking at the dr value, its looking at what the dr is doing

[pallid quail]

dude just rotate the dmg reduction in ur head

[novel oracle]

im just using ehp and etgh interchangably because curio perks work on toughness and health

[lapis raft]

yea and what the dr is actually doing is the important part

and if someone cant understand that every curio is 1 / 0.8 formula, which is not diminishing formula at all, then there rly isnt much else to say

[novel oracle]

both the numbers and the video explaination as to why those numbers are the way they are

lmfaooo

[ornate fiber]

Respectfully, your video is terrible in the current exemple

[novel oracle]

how

literally how

thats straight up just math

the numbers are bigger cuz its a different game, but in darktide itd be 1.2x or 1.5x instead of 2x or 5x

[ornate fiber]

This exemple, looked up for darktide by searching for it, gives a better idea of what you mean

[novel oracle]

so the exact thing that was already posted

[raw kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-frustrated-annoyed-pissed-off-lieutenant-olivia-benson-gif-14237102

[pallid quail]

i had the biggest crush on the da when i watched this growing up

[raw kettle]

Lol

She is hot

[pallid quail]

yea id cut a plea deal with novak if u kno what i mean

[raw kettle]

Cole has a lot of patience

[pallid quail]

cole rotated the dmg resistance in his head

[ornate fiber]

I'd still say calling effective health as dmg resistance is still dubious when it comes to gunners

[raw kettle]

Lol I just be like 1 curios great, 2 alright, 3 not worth it. That's my math

[novel oracle]

again im just saying ehp as a phrase for how many hits you can take with your current dr

which btw, directly relates to dr

could be about toughness or health

what source that damage comes from is irrelevent

[grand jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/mimimimimi-cat-sleeping-snoring-cat-sleeping-cat-drooling-cat-gif-23979759

[ornate fiber]

The most dangerous thing about gunners is thoughness bleeding, which wouldn't be impact much by curios

[novel oracle]

which is greatly mitigated by curios

[fast wind]

ranged attacks dont bleed through toughness?

[raw kettle]

Range does only toughness damage till it's gone then hits hp

[novel oracle]

he means them chipping your toughness which could result in melee attacks hitting you while youre not at max

[ornate fiber]

The entire point of thoughness is because darktide is much more ranged than vermintide

[fast wind]

I know

[ornate fiber]

You could have 1 thoughness, and you'd hit the next plasma shot

[fast wind]

It sounded like you were saying toughness doesnt completely block ranged damage and bleeds through like melee hits do

[ornate fiber]

My point is that, if you get shot for one second by a gunner, you toughness would leave you vulnerable to getting hit, in your health, by a melee hit. And that having 3 gunners curios would barely impact the % of damage that bleeds through

[raw kettle]

Dodge and block prevents that

[ornate fiber]

If you were just to stand still and get shot by gunners, then yeah, the only two things that would matter would be gunner resistance and toughness

[novel oracle]

plasma gunners ignore the toughness grace period though

so do shotgunners

[raw kettle]

Just dodging will prevent stamina regen but doesn't use stamina instead it uses dodge bars. While block uses stam

[novel oracle]

itd roughly halve it

[fast wind]

its very situational,theres circumstances where I believe resistance would help, particularly when theres a lot and when they get their accurate volleys off that shred you

[ornate fiber]

Isnt toughness grace only about providing a slight window to not be melted by continued fire ? I was speaking about toughness stoping ranged damage regardless of how much it is and you have

I've been playing havoc too much to really remember it, truthfully

[raw kettle]

Um as long as the damage isn't more than your toughness

[novel oracle]

ive been hit through toughness into hp by plasmas before

[raw kettle]

Plasma and snipers are usually the ones that can blast away toughness

[novel oracle]

heres when their damage was fucked up

but the only thing that changed in regards to their shot was the firerate and damage

[ornate fiber]

I've just looked for clips, and yeah, plasma do seem to bleed through, though the damage to health is greatly reduced (which i think is intentinal)

[novel oracle]

not the kindo f damage it is

[novel oracle]

it isnt

[ornate fiber]

as in, damage to health is greatly reduced, or its not intentional

[novel oracle]

nvm im wrong but also still correct

its a 3x multi to toughness

[ornate fiber]

One clip I looked at was an arbi going from full toughness to two in a single hit, then getting hit for like 20 hp, though it was back when plasma were overtuned

[raw kettle]

Yeah the plasma gunners do lots of damage to toughness

[ornate fiber]

If you really wanted to use resistance, i'd recommand one gunner and one bomber

[raw kettle]

Bomber though you can jump out most of the time

[ornate fiber]

If you are zealot with the skill to prevent movement reduced, then yeah

for any other class, it can be lot more difficult

What happens in most cases is that the bomber throws the bomb right on top of you, and you get chipped two or three times while trying to move out of it

[raw kettle]

And it does give plenty of leeway between seeing the grenade fly and the actual explosion

[ornate fiber]

Bombers are honestly one of the most dangerous enemy in the game because they will go out of their way to be out of view when throwing

you cannot always know they are here

[raw kettle]

I find them more worse if trappers get you

[ornate fiber]

reviving an ally who's downed, while bombers are around, also make resistance more valuable

especially since they removed the whole "you will die if resed in fire"

[novel oracle]

a crit marty zealot builds general toughness from enduring faith marty and the aura, and then each stack of gun resist

then assuming 200 toughness
how many shots you can take before your toughness breaks

[raw kettle]

Wow 92 shots