hivescum-class

[mighty belfry]

and the funny thing is that because of the stimm bug, if you manage to stack with damage stimm, the toxins also do more damage lol

[zenith fern]

That somehow did not sounded like 11 bursters

[ancient basin]

new patch, audio borked, movie at 11

[zenith pagoda]

Are the gunner/melee seed still a thing in havoc?

I keep getting carapace hordes with no rotten armour

[plucky nymph]

Scab shotgun seed has bulwark crusher maulers too

Reaper plasma all range elite with rare melee elite also a thing

[drowsy relic]

Evidently they were stoppable

[fallen void]

does this cosmetic genuinely bother anyone else? because it bothers me

[zenith fern]

mucker is bothered by something that is in 40k

[zealous ravine]

peak hive scum performance

[brisk chasm]

can someone give me a hivescum build for fast movement and good crowd control

[limber cradle]

Love it, correct amount of body horror

[frigid thorn]

Anyone have a good devils claw build for the hive scum?

[brisk chasm]

.

[frigid thorn]

Not sure if I should put toxin on crit on it lol

[frigid thorn]

If you check the pinned posts look up the shivs build by epic cole

[limber cradle]

@woeful hill you run DC scum right?

[bronze summit]

MGR:R pack for Rampage! is done

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1079235834777186406/1452768749026283771/rage_gaming.mp4?ex=694b03d4&is=6949b254&hm=c7524f58c83fd6ac4dd0b219074078d229e2d4ebff757397f638e0e2ee4b0e16&

for all the 3 people who would even download it lmao

[frigid thorn]

If you run it with tacaxe mk7 with brutal momentum it slaps at being mobile yet good at crowd control. Push attack into heavies

[zenith fern]

https://tenor.com/view/the-boys-home-lander-nao-no-gif-12606514540494555875

If it in a real game, you would not drop the first mauler smh

[drifting heron]

Its an audio demo clip

[fallen void]

it makes me uncomfortable, as it should

[zenith fern]

There should be a mod that let us play custom songs when rampage and desperado is active

[mint epoch]

i know i´d put macarena playing

get one on that proper murderous mood

[frigid thorn]

I saw his double barrel build with the DC/Desperado but not rampage

[bronze summit]

bro you wont believe what ive been posting

thats not added in post

[zenith fern]

[compact oyster]

https://open.spotify.com/track/1Pomzo56cjdsVjqOy96dy6?si=ff92ccf4bfda4ab0

[limber cradle]

Ik ainz posts DC scum clips pretty frequently so I figured id ask

[compact oyster]

the peak for rampage

[bronze summit]

poggers

[leaden fable]

General release

[frigid thorn]

Yee I love his builds

[limber cradle]

I use their meleeker build tbh

I don't even really understand it

[frigid thorn]

Me too LOO

[limber cradle]

I just know I don't die and I kill a lot of things

[frigid thorn]

I like the brain burst on it more than the shards ones

He's also responsible for my wrist being broken from running tacaxe on arbiter

[limber cradle]

Tbh I use TAxe cause it reminds me of Wolfenstien 2

[leaden fable]

Relatable lol

[frigid thorn]

Hell yeah

I love the tacaxe

[limber cradle]

Billy running around with his hatchet

[frigid thorn]

Yes

Honestly my favorite melee weapon

[limber cradle]

Idk what my favorite is anymore

The more I use the more most of them feel the same

[frigid thorn]

LOL

When the weapons meld into your body and become part of your being

[zenith pagoda]

Jesus

Going back to my other classes

I can't manage my dodges

Because they don't recover as quick

[zenith fern]

https://tenor.com/view/wolfenstein-gif-13511831534731505850

[mighty belfry]

this is exactly why I don't run Jittery lol

[compact oyster]

my favourite is a tie between relic blade and evis

[limber cradle]

Every game that let's me kill nazis is a good game

[zenith fern]

videogames that feature killing nazis is a training for us to do in real life

[limber cradle]

I still gotta beat those fucks on one life mode but the courthouse terrifies me

Best I've done is the runner up diff

[zenith pagoda]

2 fucking games in a row and teammates dodge a crusher overhead into me

[fallen void]

i just need to level one more weapon and i can quit maining scum

gonna move on to levelling vet instead

[woeful hill]

yes

[limber cradle]

You got a build for it?

[frigid thorn]

I must see the dc

[leaden fable]

DN scum

[frigid thorn]

Thank you

[woeful hill]

this was for blight havoc

[frigid thorn]

Danggg

[woeful hill]

I put down the crate every 15 sec so I was immune to blight

[frigid thorn]

That's good lol

What do you do against crushers?

[limber cradle]

Tolerance build up ass stim effect

[woeful hill]

Light Heavy light light repeat and/or parry

I killed them

[frigid thorn]

Badass

[rain ravine]

Hey guys, shiv+needlegun with rampage, I'm running 16% toughness relics with 5% toughness, 20% resistance bombers, 20% resistance gunners. Is that a dumb idea? Am I overlooking something important about hive scum? 😄

[limber cradle]

Iirc bomber resist only resists their melee

Not their bombs

[rain ravine]

oh really? Heck. that's awful haha

[limber cradle]

Its like how shotgunners arent gunners for the purpose of gunner resist also, iirc

[bronze glade]

i think that's been fixed

the bomber thing

[limber cradle]

Would be news to me

[low harbor]

No, applies to their grenades too

[eager reef]

so did that get fixed?

[limber cradle]

Wicked, ignore me then @rain ravine

[bronze glade]

the impact of their nades, or also the fire/tox that comes from the nades?

i feel like it's necessary to ask

[rain ravine]

So assuming it does work, would this be a bad loadout for my relics? Or am I dumb potato?

[bronze glade]

[low harbor]

Both

[bronze glade]

incredible

[final temple]

consider running toughness, health, combat ability regen on all three.

[bronze glade]

fatshart managed to do something right

[bronze summit]

No 3x Revive Speed? Blasphemous

[rain ravine]

haha

[low harbor]

Ability regen is

Pretty meh now tbh

[limber cradle]

Tbh I run 3x toughness 3x gunner resist and 3x health

[low harbor]

Across every class besides psyker

[limber cradle]

Ik health isn't like, ideal, but it's defo saved me before.

[tranquil berry]

It definitely USED TO only apply to the sparta kicks back in the day, but iirc it's been fixed for quite a while now

[bronze summit]

triple dipping resist has severely diminished returns

[bronze glade]

yeh

[limber cradle]

I'm very aware

[rain ravine]

like how severe o.o

[lapis raft]

hey i run ability regen smh (even though i should run something else probably)

[low harbor]

Not really true

[bronze summit]

Resists iirc go 20%/36%/48%

[bronze glade]

it just doesn't work the way people expect it to work

[low harbor]

This is not how it works

[bronze glade]

people just assume it's additive

[bronze summit]

Multiplicative

[lapis raft]

well its multiplicative with eachother instead of additive, so instead of it getting better it does not have any diminishing returns

additive would be exponential returns on the dr

[bronze summit]

yeah max is 49%

[tranquil berry]

Ability regen, toughness, stamina regen, ally revive, gunner resist. Any are good. Small nod to sniper resist if you lag a lot

[lapis raft]

i was trying gunner + bomber + flamer but just went back to gunner only as it wasnt that impactful

[keen timber]

i think gunner is the biggest one ngl

[low harbor]

Each still makes you x125% more durable than the previous, it’s not actually diminishing returns

x0.8 DR is equivalent of x1.25 hitpoints

[bronze summit]

Diminishing based on the numbers you see

As in you wont get +20% EACH, it stacks in a different way

[low harbor]

Yea multiplication just is not diminishing returns

[woeful trellis]

if DR were additive you could stack 100% DR and become invincible, but fatshark would never allow something so imbalanced to exist (ignore pre-patch blue stimm rager in tox gas)

[tranquil berry]

Multiplicative stacking always has diminishing returns, cause something something math numbers. 1 resist per enemy type is usually enough

2 if it really grinds your gear

[keen timber]

in regular play srue in havoc i think triple gunner is way better than other options

[mighty belfry]

i usually recommend at least two gunner for havoc

[low harbor]

That’s just not how diminishing returns work

[keen timber]

yeah they're just so threatening

[limber cradle]

I like that everytime your pfp updates theres a little more detail

[mighty belfry]

it technically isn't the same, das why

[tranquil berry]

I'm very curious how you define the concept of diminishing returns

[lapis raft]

when you are talking about reduced damage, the less damage taken is linear formula, reduced damage taken is exponentatial. because with 20% flat dr you go from lets say 1000 to 800, that is 20% less damage taken, then adding another 20% flat is from 800 to 600, e.g 25% less damage taken, another 20% fat is 600 to 400, e.g 33% less damage taken

[limber cradle]

Ik, but I've seen it swap 3 times and it gets a little more detailed each time.

Good novelty.

[lapis raft]

where with each step being 20% less, it is always 20% less

[low harbor]

Each x0.8 DR is equivalent of x1.25 hitpoints, you’re not actually losing any durability because each application is always x1.25 of the previous value

[lapis raft]

and never goes towards infinity unlike he first one

[low harbor]

You can write it as /0.512

But remember that number is being multiplied onto damage to determine how many hits u can take

What ultimately matters is still, how many hits u can take

[lapis raft]

yea its always 1 / 0.8 , so 1/ 0.8 / 0.8 / 0.8

[low harbor]

And in the case of triple stack, you have x1.95 the hitpoints

[tranquil berry]

"of the previous value" when the values are diminishing means your multiplier results in diminished values...

[low harbor]

Ok so is this increasingly higher durability

Because this is the EXACT same thing as DR

It’s just expressed in different terms

Every perk gives me additively more hitpoints than before

[worn gull]

How much toxin does saw apply on light / heavy swing?

[low harbor]

Does this mean I’m getting more from every perk

Even though your logic says it’s giving me less every perk

[lapis raft]

every step increases your ehp by 25%, every step is 25% more ehp

[tranquil berry]

Not quite... Subunit and overunit multipliers work differently

[lapis raft]

that is not diminishing

[low harbor]

Sorry but this is the same thing, really

[tranquil berry]

It's not

[low harbor]

If you’re unable to comprehend it, stop trying to pretend that you do

[lapis raft]

it do not calcsthe same way as increased damage

for example

that is actually diminishing

because this is 20% less damage taken every step of the calculation

[glacial gyro]

The irony

[worn gull]

Thanks! So 3 with talent on crit?

[tranquil berry]

I've been a data engineer for the past 17 years, data analytics is literally my job, but explaining subunit multiplication and sliding windows over discord is not

[low harbor]

What?

[woeful trellis]

you get diminishing returns on the number that shows up for DR, but not durability

that's basically it

the question is which metric is more important

[lapis raft]

i have been poe player for like 7 years, less damage taken does not have diminishing returns :d

[low harbor]

No it’s not even diminishing returns there

It’s just expressed to look like one when it’s actually not

[woeful trellis]

yeah

it's how you display the numbers

[tranquil berry]

Basically, multiply by less than one, number goes down, diminishing returns in absolutes. Multiply by more than one, number goes up, aggregate gains in absolute.

x.8 and x1.25 going the other way does not stack the same in absolutes

[zealous ravine]

😨

[woeful trellis]

what

what do you mean "going the other way"

you mean division? or something else

[lapis raft]

i think hes just talking about number itself not the actual result of the formula

which is completely pointless

[tranquil berry]

No, i mean reducing damage received by a subunit and increasing effective health by overunit will not be the same

[woeful trellis]

uhhhhhhhhh

is multiplying damage received by 50% the same as multiplying effective health by 200%?

if not, why?

[tranquil berry]

The first time, yes

The second time, no

[tight musk]

I have 2 gunner resist perks and one bomber resist on my curios.

[lapis raft]

you get 25% more ehp every time, it is the same

[woeful trellis]

is multiplying damage received by 25% (multiplying by 50% twice) the same as multiplying effective health by 400% (multiplying by 200% twice)? if not, why?

[low harbor]

An attack deals 10 damage to you, you have 100 health, you can take 10 hits

With x0.8 DR, that attack now deals 8 damage, you can take 12.5 hits (+2.5)

With two x0.8 DR, that attack now does 6.4 damage, you can take 15.625 hits (+3.125)

With three x0.8 DR, that attack now deals 5.12 damage, you can take 19.53125 hits (+3.90625)

In this exact scenario described above (which is how multiplicative DR works), you gain increasingly more durability if you think about it additively, which is the wrong way to think about it

And, the thing that ultimately matters from stacking DR, is to be able to take more hits

[tender marten]

i like ur disco ball

[low harbor]

You cannot judge multiplicative stacking from an additive mindset

Because it leads you to wrong conclusions

Like believing it to be diminishing

[tranquil berry]

Yes. What diminishing returns means is that the first curio takes dmg down by 2. The second one takes damage down by 1.6, which is less than 2... Which is... Diminished

The concept of diminishing returns applies to absolute numbers, not percentage

[low harbor]

How come a thing is diminishing and increasing at the same time then

[woeful trellis]

yeah he's just talking about the actual number

don't worry about it, you guys are using different definitions for the same thing

[tender marten]

i was in the pool

[low harbor]

He is just wrong tho?

You simply cannot view multiplicative stacking as if it’s additive

It’s how u get wrong conclusions

[woeful trellis]

he's not wrong, he's just looking at a number that is less important in the context of the game

[tranquil berry]

Because it's increasing by less than it did in the step before. This is called a slope. A rate of increase. Mathematically it's a progressive step function, and the steps are ever smaller, thus.
. Diminishing

Diminishing does not mean zero

Means less than last time

So yes, 3 is gonna give you more than one

But not 3 times more

Hence, a diminished value

[slender nexus]

i know this isnt true but does anyone else feel like the hive scum does talk very much, i only have 100 hours but the psyker lines feel iconic and like i was constanly saying something

[woeful trellis]

3 gunner resist curios gives you 3x the "extra time before death by gunner" that 1 gunner resist curio does, so in the sense of "how much more durable am i vs gunners" it does not have diminishing returns

but it doesn't give 60% gunner resist, so in the sense of "how much does my gunner resist go up" it does have diminishing returns

[low harbor]

Ok so the same effect is causing increasingly higher durability than before as I’ve illustrated above

So it’s not diminishing, it’s actually increasing

But again this is the wrong way to think about it

You cannot view multiplication as if it’s addition

[woeful trellis]

grizzly doesn't care about how durable a gunner curio makes you against gunners

[tranquil berry]

No, it's diminishing return of increase. A nonlinear growth.

[woeful trellis]

he only cares about the number

[lapis raft]

its not increasing, its linear, if it was additive it would increase in value

[low harbor]

Then he’s just viewing it wrong

[woeful trellis]

that's not for us to decide

[tranquil berry]

Sorry, I'm not getting payed to teach data analytics here.

[woeful trellis]

everyone values things differently

[mighty belfry]

I don't think anyone is really "wrong" here.

[woeful trellis]

if he values the number over durability, then so be it

[zealous ravine]

is this the drugs from hive scum too

[tranquil berry]

Never enough stims

[zealous ravine]

yummy

[mighty belfry]

I think you both are looking at this from a different perspective of what diminishing actually means in this case.

[slender nexus]

you can't argue or have perspective on maths right? you're either correct or wrong

[low harbor]

Diminishing would have been that
I put one DR on, I can take 2 extra hits
Another DR, I can take another 1.5 hits
Another, I can take another 1.2 hits

This would be diminishing

[woeful trellis]

you can twist numbers pretty easily if you don't agree on definition

[low harbor]

Each gradually lowers in value

But that’s not how it works

[woeful trellis]

e.g. is going from 10% to 11% a 1% or 10% increase?

[lapis raft]

you have 100 ehp, with 20% less damage taken you have 125 ehp, that is 25% more ehp. now you have 125 ehp and you get another 20% less damage taken, you have 156.25 ehp, that is exactly 25% more ehp

[woeful trellis]

i think you guys are missing the point, grizzly doesn't care about ehp

he only cares about the total gunner resist number

[tranquil berry]

Like I said, I've been a data engineer for 17 years, diminishing returns has a formal definition, it means a very specific thing, and progressively applying subunit multipliers will always have that characteristic. I'm just being nerdy about it

[mighty belfry]

While yes, technically the actual number of resistance you get is diminished, in practice, that value doesn't mean the benefit is actually diminished.

[low harbor]

Yea so he’s just viewing the entire thing wrongly from a point of additive thinking

[lapis raft]

yea hes completely ignoring that the result of the formula goes towards infinity so the number naturally gets smaller

[mighty belfry]

It's a weird case of numbers vs actual practicality.

[lapis raft]

but the actual increase to your ehp stays the same

[zealous ravine]

what im getting from this is that we need to nerf inferno staff

[low harbor]

96 nerfs to psyker yes please

[lapis raft]

if it was additive, first time it would be 25% more ehp, then 33% more ehp

[zealous ravine]

96 nerfs to inferno staff specifically

[tranquil berry]

If I may get slightly more nerdy about it, the actual effectiveness of it also depends on granularity. How big is the hit vs your healthpool. Meaning, if you can take .9 more shots or .3 more shots is, in practice, the same thing

[sinful matrix]

what the fuck are we talking about

[low harbor]

Nah, to psyker in its entirety

[zealous ravine]

nooo that means inferno gets less total nerfs

[mighty belfry]

quick maffs

[lapis raft]

basic maths that some people dont understand apparently

[woeful trellis]

if you look at this graph, you'll notice that if "output" is "gunner resist", then gunner resist curios do give diminishing returns

[low harbor]

Elementary grade 2 mathematics

[woeful trellis]

but if the output is "ehp against gunners" then it's linear

[sinful matrix]

3x gunner resist and go

its that easy

https://tenor.com/view/big-brain-point-finger-at-forehead-forehead-tap-head-tap-tap-forehead-gif-18599618

[rotund agate]

so you want psyker to no longer be viable even in auric? sounds a little unfair...

wrong reply

[zealous ravine]

yeah malice only

[tranquil berry]

What if I like to get shot?

[unique dagger]

I'd say it's not so vital anymore with the dodge linger applying on ranged, but if you play havoc stacking gunner at least up to 40% will make you have a better time

go %60 if possible still

[sinful matrix]

That's what we're talking about right, though? The choice between 2x and 3x gunner res?

[mighty belfry]

Not necessarily.

[sinful matrix]

I just run all three because its more dr, even if not a lot

[leaden fable]

Seems fine you are a large land predator after all

[tranquil berry]

I expect that dodge linger thing to be tweaked soon enough

[sinful matrix]

and I don't utilize sprinting/shoving enough for stamina to matter

[low harbor]

No, just that how it works

[sinful matrix]

and. . . hivescum gets infinite of those anyway

[unique dagger]

with recent experimentation, %40 stacking gunner, flamer and bombers have been a real solid pick for me

[leaden fable]

Probably just eat a dozen salmon and walk it off

[mighty belfry]

It's more a debate of what diminishing actually means in regards to gunner resistance on curio perks

[pallid quail]

bro u missed a great time in arby chat earlier. they were trying to teach someone addition and it just wasnt working

[sinful matrix]

Oh, how 60% GR is, in actuality, 48% or whatever

it's been a long time since I've done the math

[tranquil berry]

I like to get shot by lower calibers so i can build up a tolerance to higher calibers. Microdosing bullets

[leaden fable]

Bro building a lead immunity

[rotund agate]

dodge linger for ranged was just a test change from fatshark and will be maybe removed in the next patch(es), iirc.

[unique dagger]

me tester, I know

[mighty belfry]

a test change, in the base game

that has now slightly broken the base game

[lapis raft]

well as far as survivability goes they dont have any diminishing returns and that is the only thing that actually matters

[mighty belfry]

masterful gambit

[tranquil berry]

fatshark: we're doing it live

[sinful matrix]

yeah can I get that in a damage reduction viewpoint for my ogryn brain lmao

[tranquil berry]

Why not test on the live build? Players are beta testers that pay us to work

[low harbor]

Triple gunner resist means you have almost twice your current health/toughness vs gunners and reapers

[unique dagger]

I have been quite enjoying the linger change, I think it feels op because negative dodges aren't getting punished on linger time

[lapis raft]

and on scum especially with tis but a scratch, DR is also technically multiplier to how much value you are getting from % based recovery

[unique dagger]

if negative dodges actually made your dodges worse you'd feel it

[sinful matrix]

they do

and by a noticeable amount

[unique dagger]

not the linger time

[mighty belfry]

I'll be real. They can keep it like this but change it so the linger time is affected by ineffective dodges

[unique dagger]

you can infinitely dodge at -7

[woeful hill]

ranged dodge linger isnt affected by negative dodges

[tranquil berry]

You can infini-dodge ranged right now... Broken as fuck

[unique dagger]

and not take a single range bullet

[woeful hill]

its any dodge

[sinful matrix]

Going from 0 dodges to -1 is a massive difference in mobility

[low harbor]

Dodge linger is unaffected by effective dodges

[mighty belfry]

You can quite literally dodge ranged fire infinitely

[woeful trellis]

an easy way to look at gunner curios is, assume you had 5 curio slots instead of 3

if they were additive, you could get infinite ehp against gunners by just taking 20% gunner on all curios

if they were multiplicative you would get 3x ehp against gunners because each gunner curio makes you 1.25x tankier, no matter how many gunner curios you already have

[mighty belfry]

With ineffective dodges

Because they never bothered to do anything about that interaction regarding when dodges become inefficient

[sinful matrix]

oh, yeah sure. I just hate how slug like negative dodges make the pc

[tranquil berry]

Mobility yes. But they fucked it up and even ineffective dodges apply the full ranged immunity

Don't get used to it

[unique dagger]

if the negative dodges punish linger time

we will have a way better experience in terms of balance

[mighty belfry]

You'll actually be incentivized to watch your dodges.

[tranquil berry]

Here's hoping that gets fixed asap before we all develop bad habits

[low harbor]

Or just, revert the change and make it not work vs ranged like it’s been

[unique dagger]

dodges have been very lenient for a looong time, would be good to see them be important to watch again

[low harbor]

Or, do both

[mighty belfry]

You always were but now there's a huge benefit to actually keeping your dodges up

[low harbor]

Revert dodge linger vs ranged, scale dodge linger negatively past effective dodges

Both at the same time

[tranquil berry]

That would require skill as software developers and proper code management... These people are testing experimental base systems in the live build then go on vacation

[unique dagger]

I don't necessarily think ranged dodge linger needs to go, it can be reduced to a balanced level and punished accordingly to your dodge counter

[sinful matrix]

Thankfully I'm immune to learning the mechanics of dodges because I'm an ogryn player

I just press space and don't get hit

I'm SO glad ogryn can't be body blocked anymore

[low harbor]

Specifically do this for psyker pls

[mighty belfry]

I like the idea of dodges being gigabuffed against ranged as long as you keep your dodge efficiency up to be honest.

[lilac schooner]

me just sliding forever anyways

[lapis raft]

i like when the behaviour is actualyl consistent instead of inconsistent nonsense, but idk how would they balance the linger being consistent properly

[unique dagger]

sliding not having a limit always made me kekw

slide upstairs like the chad you are

[sinful matrix]

Also something I can't learn because dodge sliding on ogryn doesnt like. . . do anything

[mighty belfry]

Just make it that you only have that linger while you still have dodges.

[sinful matrix]

and some muscle memory won't be unlearned when swapping characters

[lilac schooner]

it actually does I see some pickaxe ogryns utilizing it really well

[mighty belfry]

So dodges are consistently able to evade ranged fire until, well, they can't anymore.

[low harbor]

They can add dodge linger vs ranged to ogryn as long as they nerf psyker, that’s all I care

[lapis raft]

yea that might be decent mayeb, just stragith up disable linger completely when you run out of dodges?

[mighty belfry]

Meaning you now actually have to dodge within reason to get the most out of them.

[sinful matrix]

I dunno man I run into the ranged blob and get all the toughness I was missing back. I will admit this only holds up so well in higher level havocs because the damage output on ranged enemies can and will instantly nuke you

[unique dagger]

psyker is completely balanced and fair, no need for any changes! ||(I'm being held hostage by a conclave of smykers and purg spammers send help)||

[urban gull]

Yes it does. You do an uppercut with your pickaxe

Shit rocks

[sinful matrix]

lmao

[urban gull]

Not even lmao its a feature, shit's awesome

[low harbor]

U can honestly fix psyker’s dps pretty easily, just give every enemy significant warp DR and make soulblaze tick rate slower

This is the simplest and most brutalist way to do it

Or go the hard way and do 96 nerfs proper

[zealous ravine]

i'd rather them just deal with inf cleave so it doesnt increase with intensity as much

[mighty belfry]

also lower the stacks against on perilous combustion tbh

[low harbor]

Psyker doesn’t even interact with cleave mechanic

[mighty belfry]

that's a huge part of why psyker is so busted right now

[zealous ravine]

oh also obviously remove scriers quell

[low harbor]

It’s not really “infinite cleave”

[zealous ravine]

eh its close enough 2 me

[low harbor]

Nah could honestly just make tick rate way slower

[low harbor]

Infinite cleave is blocked by carapace

Psyker isn’t

[zealous ravine]

so its infinite cleave+1

awesome

even worse

[low harbor]

You can’t manstopper through bulwark shields but u can just m2 + m1 on psyker

[zealous ravine]

do flames not get stopped by bulwark shields? i havent used inferno in years

[low harbor]

What gave you the impression I was only talking about inferno

[zealous ravine]

idk thats the biggest nerf target

[low harbor]

Biggest nerf target is psyker in their entirety to me

[zealous ravine]

nope

you get 5 nerfs use them wisely

[compact oyster]

i do wish stair sliding increased your speed and distance of the slide

[zealous ravine]

we all know fatshark is held hostage by psykers

[tender marten]

ive seen enough buff scriers gaze

[zealous ravine]

specifically scriers gaze inferno psykers

that also use smite

[limber cradle]

Another paragraph for SG, why not

[unique dagger]

ok so I'll try to demonstrate what I want for soulblaze by drawing an epic picture in paint here real quick.
Instead of this current curve (blue line), I want a curve that looks like this(red line):

max stacks should still do significant damage but rampup should be weaker

with considerations on how easy it is to stack soulblaze

[low harbor]

Ok then every enemy gets x30% warp DR, soulblaze tick rate changed to 3.0s, psyker gets no dodge linger past effective dodges, uncanny strike up to 20% melee_rending at max stacks (max tier), psyker gains x125% damage taken above 50% of max peril

Done

Balanced class now

[unique dagger]

reducing the blaze tick rate is also an idea

[low harbor]

5 nerfs

[unique dagger]

also uncanny needs to die

a fiery death

[low harbor]

U can unironically take what I just said

Put it into live

And psyker immediately becomes a proper class

[lapis raft]

wouldnt just the uncanny nerf there be enough, idk much about psyker builds

[unique dagger]

dots interacting with rending/power/any damage buffs should be gone for dots to be properly balanced imo

not just soulblaze

[low harbor]

Rending affecting dot is not a horrible idea

Uncanny just needs to be way lower

And be melee_rending

[zealous ravine]

warp dr is silly i'd rather them just make warp stuff not scale forever

with enemy count

[low harbor]

Btw this x30% warp DR means if ur warp atk deals 10 damage, enemy takes 3

[zealous ravine]

i tried so hard to not mention inf cleave cause its technically not that

[low harbor]

It’s not -30% warp damage

It’s x30% warp damage

[zealous ravine]

yeah thats just stinky too

[low harbor]

It’s based

So based

[zealous ravine]

nuh uh

[low harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/peaceemote-peace-peaceful-gif-15091939045954194911

[zealous ravine]

i want at least the main target im hitting to explode

pretty funny that realistically uncanny needs 2 nerfs

not affecting dots and not being a silly high number like rn

[low harbor]

I’m still counting it as 1 nerf

U said 5, I delivered 5

[zealous ravine]

i mean you didnt put the dot part in that

so yea its 1

[low harbor]

I did

I said melee_rending

[zealous ravine]

ok thats 2 then

[low harbor]

They invented that when they were changing zealot’s FotF to not work with anything but melee

[lapis raft]

surely they would buff bleed if uncanny did not affected dots at all right :d

[low harbor]

Nah no need

[zealous ravine]

does bleed fr need uncanny

[low harbor]

Bleed fine where it’s at (baseline)

It’s the weakest DOT

[woeful hill]

hmm

I wonder which is tox

[low harbor]

Green

[woeful hill]

thats just crazy they made it like that

I was doing a H40 scum solo

its dumb

[lapis raft]

i mean i think the linear scaling with stacks only makes sense for tox, should be like that for every other dot too

just maybe needs to be tad weaker

or needler/shiv special should get nerfed

as other than those 2 its actually somewhat annoying to stack tox properly

[slender nexus]

oh every youtuber has said that getting over "max" stacks was a lot of extra dmg

but looking at soulflame looks like its lower

[woeful hill]

you cant get over max

its hard capped

they might be talked about different sources of stacking like soulblaze

where each way its applies has its own cap

but there is a total cap

[low harbor]

Soulblaze’s problem is that u can apply it to a very large group of enemies at once and killing them can also spread soulblaze even more

[slender nexus]

like holding second cast you can get maybe 13 then with venting shriek or the aoe talent you can get 16-19

[low harbor]

It snowballs very quickly

[pallid quail]

yea its good. thats not a problem lol

[slender nexus]

and i dont think chem stacks can go above 30 right

[lapis raft]

right

[low harbor]

Max is 30

[low harbor]

Every dot represents 1 stack

[charred bronze]

I don't want to reignite the conversation, but the common wisdom was get 2 resist for each type you care about. It seems like you don't actually lose effective value for taking the third resist curio.

Especially on scum where getting caught out by specific effects is unusually harsh, it's worth taking 3 resist curios of a given type?

[icy scaffold]

I mean, on scum it’s not even worth taking resistance if you run Desperado

[lapis raft]

i think with tis but a scratch triple gunner resistance can have some potential but 🤷‍♂️ and i def dislike bombers enough on scum where i would consider triple bomber too :d

[slender nexus]

i think the game is too easy to bother, might as well just go CDR and extra base toughness no?

since all the talents give percent back

[icy scaffold]

I run triple CDR, triple health and triple toughness on 3 toughness curios

[lapis raft]

well dr is also boots to the value of your % toughness regen right

so same same

but yea i also just do like 1 gunner atm and rest toughness/health and cdr

[mint pendant]

for the stim, is less volume good?

[lapis raft]

well it lowers cd so depends on how you value uptime over power right

i had like 75-80% ish uptime with 45s without crate so thats what i generally run, e.g 50%

and with crate i run 100%

for also ~75-80% ish uptime

[mint pendant]

im guessing the % is viscosity?

[lapis raft]

yea

[main wagon]

I’m greedy so I max it out lol

[mint pendant]

so does attack speed mean weapons too or?

like ranged

[main wagon]

Yup

I use it to offset the weakness of not being in desperado with 0 melee spec, or just turning myself into an A10 strafe when desperado is up

[lapis raft]

the str branch is generally strongest on almost every setup i think and rest is a bit step below

[zenith pagoda]

Don't play havoc in EU rn guys, literally everyone is useless

[main wagon]

Yeah rending stim is lovely

[lapis raft]

well probs not gonna get many useful people that are still playing at midnight xd

[slender nexus]

well once you do your one havoc 40 whats the point arent the weekly rewards just based on highest level reached

[lapis raft]

gonna try triple these for memes

[dawn portal]

Nah, you gotta keep one at 16% so you can blame the fact that your build isnt optimal when you lose

[zenith pagoda]

Does bomber from curios apply to tox and fire bomber?

Like tox gas and ground fire

[low harbor]

Only if they’re from bombers

[zenith pagoda]

And flamers are the same?

[low harbor]

Only if the flames are from flamers

[plucky nymph]

I keep telling ppl trust me ill never die again when I get my last 17%

When I got it my toughness didnt even round up. 133 to 133 😭

[lucid nymph]

Anyone been doing well with combat sword? How do you deal with carapace?

[novel oracle]

Devils claw?

[lucid nymph]

Yeah

[novel oracle]

Either needlepistol or if youre in rampage, heavies/parries

The rending node it has makes the carapace damage explode

[lucid nymph]

Chem dependency?

Or the middle keystone?

[novel oracle]

Middle for melee builds always

[compact oyster]

adrenaline boosts melee very hard

[novel oracle]

25% melee damage is quite a big bump baseline, and since damage is multiplicative with strength like from rampage, it's REALLY noticeable

[lucid nymph]

Hmmm I'll have to look at that a bit closer, my monkey brain has always seen 15% crit on chem dependency and ignored everything else haha

[hardy maple]

when i pop my stim thats pure melee buffs and rampage ontop of adrenaline NOTHING can survive the BLENDATRON 1000000

[novel oracle]

Scum gets 10 base, 5% from a stat node above stam attack speed, 20% from dodge, and 20% more from shred which youll be nabbing on dclawn so youre regularly at 35-55% anyway

[vapid rivet]

i love scum melee

[pearl thistle]

Hive Scum

[light phoenix]

Anyone make use of the Horizontal Heavy Shivs?

[icy scaffold]

Probably not worth sacrificing the anti armor capabilities

Since you already shred hordes

[exotic temple]

Me personally I’m a stabby shiv enjoyer

[tender marten]

yea

[loud herald]

same

it be quite fun

i'm enjoying my stimm supply build quite a bit

melee buffs for everyone

💉

[light phoenix]

Since playing Hive Scum I've been worrying my girlfriend by shouting out "DrugsssssYeaaaaa!!!" or something similar

[loud herald]

drugz

[light phoenix]

Even Nurgle can't handle a good crystal

[frigid thorn]

what's the st combo on the devil's claw 7?

[weary elbow]

How do the Dual Autopistols compare to Shredder Auto or Braced Autogun?

[lapis raft]

the scum pyramid :d

[frigid thorn]

About the same as the Shredder, better than the Braced

[ancient basin]

more fire rate and longer reload vs shorter reload and more crits. Braced auto is supposed to do more damage per shot but its not really a contender with the shredder and dual autos.

shredder is a bit better into carapace with 30% rending (15% from desperado + 15% from stim) due to higher crit rate from cavalcade

its not a huge difference though

[tight musk]

I have chem dependency on my saw build, but I also use it with stimm supply, not rampage.

Has really good synergy with sample collector since you put toxin on every enemy you kill, and saw does have a finesse stat for better crits.

[glacial gyro]

Agri braced is actually not bad.

[weary elbow]

What's our best can opener melee weapon? Like, for Maulers and Crushers

[charred bronze]

Mk I shivs + rampage and brittleness stimm, pretty sure.

[tight musk]

Probably knife and shivs.

[weary elbow]

Appreciate it

[charred bronze]

Though it's notable that needler is an amazing anti-armor weapon. 3 needles will get a slow kill, 5 will tick faster

Great vs monsters too

[tight musk]

Needle gun is a really amazing sidearm for a melee build.

[weary elbow]

I'm asking for a ranged build, but good to know

[lapis raft]

knife probs best

[tight musk]

If you want an anti-armor melee for a ranged build, shivs are probably the best option, tbh. You can throw 2 toxin shivs at a crusher, kill it and get those 2 toxin knives back.

Toxin will speed things up a lot.

[weary elbow]

Awesome

[lapis raft]

yea with the special i guess shivs tad better than knife when you dont have needler

[haughty badger]

I didnt know you get 2 back on ogryn enemies, that's great

[tight musk]

Ogryns carry 2 metal toothpicks in their back pocket in case they accidentally eat one.

[zealous ravine]

bag full of rebar for ogryn as ranged wep

[tight musk]

Rebar javelins.

[zealous ravine]

actual rain world gameplay

[tight musk]

Just give ogryn bag of friendly rocks as a ranged weapon.

[zealous ravine]

more rocks awesome

no no actually

make it a boulder

[tight musk]

And a Christmas skin for the bag for Emperormas, or whatever they have in 40K.

Big friendly ogryn sending gifts to friends and foes alike.

Shouty gets a big friendly rock, and sparky gets a big friendly rock, and spiky ones get big friendly rocks to the face at a 100 mph.

[dim moth]

my rain world gameplay was a lot of getting jumpscared by pipe lizards

and being terrified of everything xd

[zealous ravine]

funny

[dim moth]

and then not even completing the fuckin' survivor playthrough because my thallasaphobia scared me out of doing the underwater section once I got to shoreline

[zealous ravine]

dont rember shoreline needing much deep diving

might b a path without any

though some sections defo have you being above very deep water....

[dim moth]

I swear when I did shoreline I had to go through underwater tunnels

using the dumb little fish things

[zealous ravine]

yea u don need to go too far down into shoreline tunnels usually

[dim moth]

having to go down into them at all was fuckin' me up man

[zealous ravine]

its joever....

[weary elbow]

Is the dump stat for the Crowbar Mobility or Defenses?

[low harbor]

either is ok

hive scum has crakced stamina regen so defense dump (mainly affects push cost) isn't as big of a deal

[tight musk]

Speaking of thalassophobia.

Subnautica is a thing. I think I raised the water level in that game by like 50% from all the times I pissed my pants when I looked down and didn't see the bottom, or saw a big scary fish.

[round jay]

Imagine HS with bolgun...

[zealous ravine]

people with thalassophobia would defo hate rivulet playthrough lmao

[stone crater]

getting hit in melee seems to both reset the melee combo and make the throwing the stimmpack stick

what is up with that

[rich carbon]

any non-unique weapons the hivescum particularly likes?

[stone crater]

unrelated, what the fuck

[rich carbon]

is it possible to do a pistols primary build

[keen timber]

wwhat the fuck

[rich carbon]

the stub pistols i mean

[limber cradle]

Related what the fuck is your ui

[stone crater]

fuck you :3

we play too many mmos

[rich carbon]

ngl its kinda clean

i like it

the UI i mean

mostly

[stone crater]

usually we have more redundacy on the screen at once

[rich carbon]

If I could move stuff around i'd totally run it

[stone crater]

you can!

[rich carbon]

shit fr?

also can you build around stub pistols as a primary

[stone crater]

custom_hud is the mod

[keen timber]

what the fuck do u mean

thjey literally have

[dim moth]

custom Hud lets you do that

[keen timber]

Their stamina and dodges TWICE

the hp and toughness is so unreadable

[rich carbon]

like ok id clean it up a bit and move some stuff

[dim moth]

the ring huds for teammates is cute

but ring hud around the crosshair is so goddamn ugly

[stone crater]

its front and center how is it unreadable

also yes the doubled stam is something we should fix but like hey redundancy

[drifting heron]

How do you see things

[dim moth]

I see it when watching streamers play MMOs pretty frequently especially PvP

[drifting heron]

Theres so much in the way

[stone crater]

pure skill

[dim moth]

they'll have a few button in the exact center of the screen so that they're easier to click

and they don't need to get freaky with binds

[keen timber]

that's fucking abominable ngl

[mighty belfry]

tbh i actually have the ring hud mod, you can make it bigger and space the hud out from the crosshair

it's quite nice actually.

[dim moth]

and also like

[mighty belfry]

i couldn't use it like that where it's literally hugging the crosshair though

[dim moth]

the center of your screen is the exact last place I want to be obscured by UI elements?

[keen timber]

what the fuck even is the bottom circle

[stone crater]

its just the hive scum experience™

[keen timber]

its NOT EVEN CENTERED

[dim moth]

controversial take maybe

[mighty belfry]

nades

[keen timber]

it's a solid fucking bar

[mighty belfry]

Oh you mean

[stone crater]

the big one is health/toughness, the smaller partial one is nades

[mighty belfry]

Oh that's your health and toughness

[keen timber]

wjat

[dim moth]

cllearly this is a sign that fatshark was onto something when presentign stats as vague bars and nothing else

[stone crater]

because it's full

[lapis raft]

i use slightly modified crosshair hud, kinda like the minimalism

[stone crater]

also toughness

[keen timber]

??????

[stone crater]

redundancy!

[keen timber]

why do u need every fucking ui element like three times

do u have eyes

do they work

[stone crater]

yes, but again, mmo gameplay, so everywhere We look we can see our resources

[mighty belfry]

different strokes for different folks

if it works, it works

[keen timber]

bro id have to remember which bar is which every time i looked

[mighty belfry]

🤷‍♀️

[stone crater]

this honestly isn't the most egregious version we've had

[dim moth]

it's also not the most egregious I've seen personally xd

[keen timber]

there will always be worse.

[mighty belfry]

i've seen modded games that don't even look like darktide anymore

[rich carbon]

tbf I love the circular team bars, thats my favorite part

[mighty belfry]

now that's scary stuff

[dim moth]

like I use pretty basic setups for MMO hotbars all things considered

[stone crater]

considering removing the ringhud ally readout but they shows when people are dogged is fun

[limber cradle]

Tbf thats swtors default UI

With like

[limber cradle]

2 extra bars

[dim moth]

yeah I like the default UIs of most MMOs

[keen timber]

liking default uis is almost as heinous

[stone crater]

also its not centered because it shifts with the crosshair as We sprint around

[keen timber]

still beats having a million addons

[keen timber]

no

it ALL Shifts

and the bottom tough bar is ALWAYS off

[stone crater]

nah just ring hud shifts

[dim moth]

the simplicity makes it easier to read

[zealous ravine]

do mmos really need 300 abilities its scary

[stone crater]

yes

[dim moth]

I think I have pressed every button on that hotbar for a reason at LEAST one time

some more than others

and they're actually ordered as such!

[keen timber]

I liked lost ark. you had 8-9 buttons.

[zealous ravine]

zamn

[dim moth]

I have important buttons anywhere from 1-6 because it's easier to press

7 through = are more situational buttons

[zealous ravine]

lost ark was defo a videogame

[woeful trellis]

the raids were nice... everything else was sort of the stereotypical KR MMO slop

[keen timber]

yeah

it had good gameplay, but a lot of the other systems sucked

[dim moth]

my favorite part from trying it was how the instant they started making the exploration area actually interesting they just slam you into endgame and daily quest slop

[keen timber]

the characters looked nice and you could dress them up fancy

[dim moth]

the *INSTANT you are no longer in the shitty generic fantasy area that sucks and is boring

you are told "stop exploring go grind"

agonizing

[stone crater]

this is detracting from the actual question though

what the fuck why did the mutie literally crawl out of the cogs

[rapid token]

revolver-only hivescum surprisingly good (in quickplay auric)

with the braced version for free magdumping

almost guaranteed ammo back on pickpocket elite/specialist kill, hard not to get the kill when you are always dumping the entire thing

[dim moth]

that gun is SO BAD

[rich carbon]

what nodes does Vulture's Mark want

[rapid token]

works on my machine

[dim moth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1444017590748975125/1448416004802740224/Warhammer_40000_Darktide_2025.12.10_-_14.37.30.19.DVR_online-video-cutter.com.mp4?ex=694b0005&is=6949ae85&hm=723b09565dea42d801c86ae0d21b760e5e017d301fa42cf050967f32096ae08e&

[spark gyro]

GUYS I HAD A MOMENT OF CLARITY

"Oppenhiver" ✋ 🤚

[drowsy relic]

The double back is killing me man

[dim moth]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1444017590748975125/1448414649048371383/Warhammer_40000_Darktide_2025.12.10_-_14.28.09.18.DVR_online-video-cutter.com.mp4?ex=694afec2&is=6949ad42&hm=73c62edd5eb3a4107aa15f81925bc4893e3febfb5f5712536cbca3071420f718&

how a gun that does this

[rich carbon]

how well would this work for a stub pistols build

[dim moth]

can fail to one shot a fucking poxwalker

is beyond me

[spark gyro]

Dude

[rapid token]

basically the entire game with revolver (only did 1000 melee damage), not only did I obviously get the most specialist/elites considering using an infinite ammo revolver, but also somehow got the most horde clears by tiny margin

[spark gyro]

I remember one of my hugest miffs about the early revolver was how its damage could reliably one-shot shooters

On the body

[lapis raft]

Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.

[spark gyro]

If you hit the arms, it would not be enough

Because shooting the arms had a damage reduction

[spark gyro]

Because of course it did

[dim moth]

still does!

and honest to god I still want it removed

[spark gyro]

I know

[dim moth]

it's a horde shooter there is zero reason for the damage model to be that complex

[rapid token]

the dual stubs are so objectively shit but then you do this once every minute or so and its kind of worth it

[spark gyro]

Dumbest thing when you're not exactly going to be concerned with micromanaging chest-height hitboxes in a game where you kill hundreds of enemies in 20 minutes

Reminds me a bit of reaper carapace tidbits

Though gladly the weapons that generally are concerned about that are the ones with such a volume of fire, that the reaper cowers before dying

[dim moth]

I have shot tox bombers with a fully charged helbore IV shot

while in executioner's stance

and they have not died from it

so many times

because of the fucking limb damage reduction

[spark gyro]

Dual stubs being just a reskinned revolver because you still dump your entire magazine on like 5 enemies

Except now you have 14 chances to miss instead of 5

And it has no bullet magnetism

[rich carbon]

any non-unique weapons hivescum particularly likes?

[woeful hill]

axes

[spark gyro]

Doing taxes

[woeful hill]

Combat and tactical axe are the best performers for scum

[dim moth]

dclaw sword...

[rich carbon]

taxe sounds v fun

[dawn portal]

Whats the taxe tech? I never enjoyed using it

[woeful hill]

like moveset?

[dawn portal]

yeah or a build? Feels kinda wimpy when I use it

[woeful hill]

sec

[dawn portal]

might be using the wrong attacks

[dawn portal]

Thanks, ill give it a shot

[haughty badger]

chain sword feels good with adrenaline frenzy

combat shotgun goes pretty hard too tbh

[icy scaffold]

Agri braced auto, Vraks IAG, shredder, double barrel, bolt pistol

[rapid token]

decided to stress test it and hopped into a auric maelstrom with my 300 rating heavy sword and 400 rating revolver, braced revolver hivescum works perfectly fine (Killie)

need to fallback to melee only when there is nothing but pure horde and that's pretty uncommon + who cares its just normal horde

[ancient basin]

give me another mark of these, but the spin is both guns at the same time and gives you 3 seconds of 30% faster fire rate

[foggy vapor]

What does the spin even do

[rapid token]

basically a charged shot

[ancient basin]

increases accuracy, crit chance, and stagger of the next single shot

[woeful hill]

finesse(?) and accuracy

[foggy vapor]

Oh

[ancient basin]

style on them rotters

[foggy vapor]

I just think the guns look cool

[rapid token]

with a specific timing

[foggy vapor]

So that therefore negates all negatives

[ancient basin]

I want the cool spin, but a bit longer, then a big fire rate buff as you just start blastin

if it had more overpenetration maybe, but the fire rate is very slow on the spin shot if you are chaining

[rapid token]

how about spin -> auto burst fire of like 6 (both guns shooting 3 times each) shots

[ancient basin]

so you use it to snipe ot to cheeky kill a single dude for funsies

yeah thats the idea, you do a cool spin, then shoot fast for a bit

[foggy vapor]

Every spin causes a minor suppression

Because you trick the enemies into thinking you're going to shoot with one

But shoot with the other

Like a lil funny guy

[ancient basin]

having a massive suppression buff on the shot would be nice

[rapid token]

spin pistol to parry incoming mauler like the dark souls 2 scimitar parry

[ancient basin]

as is, they cant solve crushers, so you are using them to deal with specials as a side arm rather than a main desperado weapon

[foggy vapor]

I use them to headshot from afar

[ancient basin]

the john wick two tap after pistol spin parry

[rapid token]

I've actually used them for horde clear, i think the trick shot penetration goes pretty far

kinda like a pocket bolter

[ancient basin]

they have decent penetration base into horde

the clip size makes the reloads pain over time, but still usable

thats with speed load and the 30% talent

[rapid token]

yes cant imagine using any of these guns without the maxed reload speed ups

[ancient basin]

overall cool guns I like, but cant use because I dont want to be caught out with no answer for crushers

shredder and vraks autogun can both base line it, but we play scum to dual wield and be cool

might use em on my melee build for a bit, for funsies

I do run sustained fire on them, as they can really make use of the smaller bursts with the low mag size

[exotic temple]

I just take a melee to deal with crushers. Stabby shivs do ok with the special

[fallen stone]

Run and Gun Dual autopistols feels so EVIL with desperado

[candid flare]

I use Caxe with skullscrusher and thrust on my desperado build, just Spam overhead heavies and watch them drop

[main wagon]

This is what I immediately noticed with the spin move and god it feels like shit sometimes when you just get aim-punched off target or your own dodge screws you over

[main wagon]

They got Run n Gun built in, silly goose. But that accuracy bump is still prolly nice for bursting distant targets

[spark gyro]

My beef with the spin move is that it feels like the window to fire the gun changes

Sometimes I can click as the character is about to point the gun forward, and sometimes it just doesn't work

I noticed that gets worse the longer I hold, so I end up having better results tapping the special and tapping the fire button

[charred bronze]

I've been trying the dual autos with blaze away and pinning fire. It's fun.
I just realized that you're probably talking about completely different guns. Thought you were talking bout scum guns as a whole

[haughty badger]

I'm not recovering toughness in the meat grinder from ranged kills when I get kills with the toxin of the needle pistol. is this something that will work in a match but not in the meat grinder?

[woeful hill]

check kuli guide

it stats that a DoT kill doesnt count

it needs to be a ranged kill

and DoTs arent ranged

[haughty badger]

sure but the ranged damage skill at the top of the tree buffs my dot damage

[fast surge]

Because that's not ranged damage

It's all damage

[woeful hill]

which one

[fast surge]

That is close range

[woeful hill]

close range is all damage within 12.5 meters

[haughty badger]

no not that one

this buffs my dots

[woeful hill]

check kuli guide

might be an exemption

[haughty badger]

yet another case of misleading descriptions

cool

[woeful hill]

[fast surge]

Yeah that specifically buffs all damage while your ranged weapon is equipped

Good ol' fs

[haughty badger]

ah makes sense

[fast surge]

Yeah so if you were to apply dots with your ranged weapon then switch it won't be active anymore

[haughty badger]

was bouta say that it seems like I wont be getting toughness with the needle pistol, but then I remembered that it has the toughness on elite kill blessing. might have to grab that out of necessity

[lapis raft]

doesnt that one not work too?

[haughty badger]

no idea. I should be able to check

[tropic crag]

don' think it does

i use the evade shots on critical blessing and i kind of like it

but thats for melee build

[haughty badger]

yeah the elite kill toughness doesnt work

[fast surge]

Needle is not really a ranged build kind of weapon anyway

[lapis raft]

you can do most of mission with it tho bceause pickpocket totally isnt broken :d

[tropic crag]

naw its amazing on melee builds if you only pull out your gun to take out the odd elite or special

[lapis raft]

sometimes i just spam blue mode just because i can

[tropic crag]

oh i misread

sorry ignore me lol

[haughty badger]

was gonna try a sort of chem bomber build. I think it'd actually work really well, if I could generate toughness granted, balancing factor

[fast surge]

Yeah but you can also do most of the mission with daps, and much faster

[low harbor]

no, all dmg within 30m (max within 12.5m)

[tropic crag]

lol yeah but once you're talking desp builds in general the bottom floor is "op" lol

[fast surge]

Love me 6 shot double barrel

[woeful hill]

I was thinking Quick and Deadly

not the left side node

[lapis raft]

well not rly because im still melee build

[low harbor]

quick & deadly is also that

[woeful hill]

really?

[low harbor]

it's near_damage

[woeful hill]

I see

yeah

[low harbor]

all near_damage is up to 30m (max within 12.5m)

[lapis raft]

yea just terrible tooltip as usual

[woeful hill]

its not close damagea

its near

I see

[tropic crag]

was pretty sure that most "on close kill things" have the 12.5 range and the damage is the one that scales out to 30... unless i'm really dumb

oh is that the difference

[low harbor]

code-wise it's called near_damage

in game they call it close

but they also say close ranged

which gets confusing

so I just use near now

also I uploaded relic blade's sections

[tropic crag]

sometimes we make english more confusing just because its easier to speak it in a certain way tbh

at least thats what i blame for like half the bad tool tips in these games

the other half are just bad sometimes lol

[low harbor]

people seem to like it, haven't organically gotten clown award yet

[bronze glade]

post a link on one of tanner's videos

[haughty badger]

does toxic renewal (replenish toughness when a toxed enemy is killed by a melee attack) give you toughness when a teammate does the melee killing?

[low harbor]

nah

[low harbor]

I could ask

[woeful hill]

could be a funny interaction like In Fire Reborn

on psyker

[candid flare]

The problem is the difference between
Close range
And
Close-Ranged
That isn't made very clear

[woeful hill]

[dim moth]

well previously fat shark would just say Close Damage for all damage

[candid flare]

Yes

[dim moth]

and Close Ranged Damage for gun damage

[haughty badger]

would be appreciated. might be the only way needle pistol can generate toughness without rampage or stims

[low harbor]

they're the same thing

[lapis raft]

it doesnt even say close-ranged just close ranged so it is even less clear xd

[low harbor]

all are near_damage

[dim moth]

Close Quarter's Killzone on Veteran, and Point Blank Barrage on Ogryn respectively

[low harbor]

the difference is usually conditional

as in, which attacks can benefit from this buff

[tropic crag]

honestly i stopped trying to figure out things too much in tide games, i find that if i understand less and just vibe my way through it i just end up less confused

[candid flare]

Well, no.
It is very obviously one is damage within a range, and one is ranged damage within that range

But not that obvious

[tropic crag]

bit of a reading check yeah lol

[low harbor]

code wise it's just near_damage, then it checks for which attacks can get the buff

ex: dum dum and fire frenzy are both near_damage, tooltip says "close range damage" for dum dum and "close damage" for fire frenzy

but they are the same thing

[candid flare]

Yes but not the same as close ranged damage

[low harbor]

quick and deadly is also near_damage and tooltip says "close ranged damage"

again, same thing

[candid flare]

Near damage, and then checks for ranged

[low harbor]

no, actually

[candid flare]

Damn thats some spaghetti

[low harbor]

dum dum and fire frenzy check for if you have ranged weapon in hand (so it only works while u have a gun in hand)
quick and deadly doesn't, so it just always works

[candid flare]

This is why I prefer vibe

[low harbor]

damage_near applies to all damage (think of it as global damage) but scales the bonus based on distance from player, retaining max within 12.5m and scales linearly down to 0 at 30m and beyond

hive scum's in your face has both far_damage and near_damage, both only apply while ranged weapon is in hand

zealot's anoint in blood is also near_damage, but only while ranged weapon is in hand

this is not even close to the most spaghetti code FS has

I've seen far worse

[low harbor]

I think kuli asleep rn

maybe

[haughty badger]

[tight rock]

is it a bug that stimm supply uses your custom stim

[haughty badger]

dont think so. there'd be anti synergy if it didnt

[novel oracle]

no, the ability doing what it says it does isnt a bug

[tight rock]

me read agane

k, me understand

I thought it always copied the stim, regardless of stim CD

[lapis raft]

it does if you walk out and in to the circle

[haughty badger]

it'd be pretty cool if it didnt consume the natural stimms though. I get that the natural stimms are stronger than the special stimm, but it doesnt feel like there's enough natural stimms to justify stimm supply without the special stimm, despite the use of it with natural stimms being the coolest use of it

if passing stimms wasnt such a nightmare to pull off maybe it wouldnt be too bad

[novel oracle]

thatd be gamebreaking

med stims

[haughty badger]

med stims for sure would be

[lapis raft]

you should be able to pick up map stimms while your own stimm is recovering at least, like you either have the stimm or not

[haughty badger]

there'd need to be some alterations, but it'd be so much cooler if you coukd actually rely on using natural stimms to any extent. right now you cant. it's like taking field improv as an ability instead of a talent. sure it's good, but you basically just replaced your ability with a niche clutch

[haughty badger]

or this, yeah. this shoukd just be default. let me carry natural stimms while having a special stimm. we already figured this out with Vermintide, just double tap the stim button fir the second one

[lapis raft]

1 slot would be fine as well and your own stimm could simply just pop back in after you use the picked up stimm if it recovered from cd

[novel oracle]

im so frustrated we moved on to another class so soon

[haughty badger]

that too. so many ways to do it. and they just, didnt. what they did probably took more effort debugging too

[haughty badger]

still feel like Vet and Zealot need some work

[novel oracle]

vet and zealot are fine

im saying this whole thing is underbaked

[lapis raft]

vet stealth ability still makes no sense to me ngl

[novel oracle]

it needed like another half year in the oven

[lethal quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/hurry-up-judge-judy-time-is-up-gif-5267355

[novel oracle]

we're about a couple years too late for that dude

its in the game, so itll stay that way

[novel oracle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

[low harbor]

nah can still use some work, just comparatively less

[candid flare]

Let me pick up any stim to instantly refresh my stim cooldown. Put it In a node.

[haughty badger]

fine but could be much better. Zealot's skill tree offers practically zero playstyle variety beyond ability and blitz, and Vet has several milestone choices that arent worth considering or outright uncomfortable/boring to use

[lapis raft]

cant ask for too much game developing from the game developers obviously

would be rude

[novel oracle]

zealots skill tree is infinitely better in terms of picking and choosing vs before
like seriously

i actually have different builds for different weapons now

vs piety on nearly every weapon

stealth got an actual glowup and you see people genuinely run it on builds that arent just thammer boss cheesing or knife speedruns

[haughty badger]

oh I'm well aware. but what didnt change was the playstyle variety. sure your skill choices matter, but no matter the skill tree layout the playstyle is the same as if you had gone down any other path

[woeful hill]

I disagree

[novel oracle]

if youre referring to the fact that all of them are melee focused, thats really the point

of the class

[lapis raft]

zealot stealth is rly nice, makes vet stealth look even worse in comparison

[haughty badger]

what changes your playstyle is your blitz, ability, and weapons. the skills between make little difference in your gameplay

[haughty badger]

I dont mean that. you can do melee a lot of ways

[novel oracle]

majority of the time, theyre not supposed tio

theyre supposed to support the other choices youve made, like with blitz, ability, and weapons

therein making a coherent build

that one talent that gives attack speed on push attack is great, but you need to be actually doing that often to benefit from it
so its a talent you would take or skip depending on both your weapon chosen and your personal usage with that weapon

[haughty badger]

majority of the time. for Zealot it's ALL of them. even your keystones dont change how you play. they do different things, but in practice you make the same decisions in combat with each keystone. and Zealot, unlike other classes, is really the only one where practically none of your talents change a damn thing about how you play. sure most dont for most classes, but there's enough to matter for other classes

[tropic crag]

yeah in tide games i always start with "how i want to play" and build downward from weapons

starting from weapons i mean

[novel oracle]

desperation also is a damage bonus that relies on other choices youve made, how deep into stamina or the lack thereof are you going? on my thunderhammer build, im often doing sprinting heavies so im rarely above half stamina, so its just extra free damage, and since i want to maintain it, i drop stamina regen on my curios, so now i have a free spot. the build also takes that revive speed node during pathing, so i can fill revive speed in those slots and have extremely high revive/rescue/ledge/unnet speed which is really useful too
and thats the only build i do that on, because i dont have another build that spends that much time being at basically no stamina so i cant justify that build choice

[woeful hill]

and not to mention the backstab stuff

[novel oracle]

thats 3 blue talents that drastically change what the build does due to the playstyle i use with them

[low harbor]

idk how you all concluded that a revive speed talent should be the center of the tree tho

[woeful hill]

sorry

mb

lol

[frigid sluice]

sorry

mb

lol

[woeful hill]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-hammer-cat-being-hit-on-the-head-with-a-hammer-monjjunirawr-silly-cat-cat-hammered-gif-10390299470246788991

[frigid sluice]

https://gif.fxtwitter.com/tweet_video/G7sjbaDacAAK9GA.gif

[low harbor]

a few talents can use some help as well

punishment is still pretty weird

[tropic crag]

to help others one must achieve balance in their life, find the center of themselves and all things

so yeah slap that bad boy in the middle

[low harbor]

that entire middle section is pretty wack tbh

[novel oracle]

i wanted punishment to be on hit tbh

[low harbor]

fr fr

100%

it should be like headtaker

stack per hit

[novel oracle]

it shouldve acted like a micro hammerblow

[low harbor]

hitting 3 enemies to gain stack is so wack

when the game can spawn waves that fully mitigate it

[haughty badger]

all of those are things that happen naturally. all of Zealot's talents are caused by or modify things you were already doing regardless. you'll be more okay with losing stamina when you have desperation, but you were going to lose stamina anyway. the backstab skills are pretty much the only skills that make any sort of gameplay change, and the buffs are small enough, in addition to the aggro you gain by being in melee combat high enough, that a lot of time will be spent not benefitting from it anyway

compare that to Psyker with soulblaze on elite kill, kinetic deflection, converting damage into peril, immunity to gunners on crit, malefic momentum, wildfire, the two primary/secondary attack staff talents nobody uses; ALL of thise have a significant impact on your choices during combat, and all of them are blue. granted Psyker probably has the largest number of such skills, but the point stands that Zealot has pratically zero talents that affect your playstyle, and it's inexcusable that his keystones dont change your playstyle either

[tropic crag]

i think its ok for some skills to just be kind of bad choices in havoc but more than fine for auric and below... and i don't think that waves that negate it come up that often in auric

[low harbor]

zealot and vet trees are both way way way better than before

but they still can use improvements

[haughty badger]

that

[novel oracle]

you kinda highlighted the two problems that come with loading blue talents with such unique effects

[low harbor]

no? a single scab rager/mauler pack is enough to kill its uptime, not to mention ogryns

[novel oracle]

psyker has tons of them
and they are either the most gamebreaking mandatory instapicks in the game
or no one uses them cuz they suck

[dim moth]

hell man even shotgunners and bruisers for some of these weapons

[novel oracle]

perilous combustion singlehandedly destroys the balance of the game

damage into peril turns psyker into a tank

[dim moth]

what's a breakpoint anyways

[tropic crag]

if the uptime makes a difference in auric to actually like... change the game then something is already going wrong tbh, like tide games aren't so reliant on stat numbers to care that much at auric and below because the impact in minimal

[dim moth]

enemies having full health in psyker's darktide?

no sir

[novel oracle]

and the staff primary fire options are just the most nothingburger things (no cool unique staff primary attacks allowed, not in my game)

[tropic crag]

so like if your build is like anywhere in the ballpark of "ok" then you'll have enough stats to do what you need at all times in auric

even with some "bad" choices

[dim moth]

I long for bolt staff

[low harbor]

ur not gonna believe this but yes it would be a substantial improvement because it means u can immediately save 1 point on TWBS across basically all builds that take faithful frenzy

[candid flare]

Shock staff could have been the beam equivelant so ez