zealot-class

[placid fiber]

Yeah

[ornate bone]

One starts with a strikedown before a sweep

The other is a sweet before a strikedown

[rocky marsh]

@placid fiber can ya explain why is evis so popular

[placid fiber]

because it is a solid weapon that can handle a large range of problems, and it is a warhammer 40k staple...?

[rocky marsh]

how does it fare against the elites?

[placid fiber]

Pretty well, if you know what you are doing

I don't know about ragers, but, It is great against armored elites for sure

[rocky marsh]

idk i kinda want to try something other than crusher weapon
but evis is so popular its boring to even see now.

[placid fiber]

Try a heavy sword

The main problem you will have is crushers, which your answer is generally: Special attack then heavy 1, rinse and repeat

for the mk 6 and 9 heavy swords, anyway

[rocky marsh]

what is your opinion on caxe? & does it face problem against crushers?
ik its very blessing dependent with brutal momentum tho

[placid fiber]

Caxe lost a lot of power with the nerf to bromentum, but, for zealots it is still perfectly viable

Just use headtaker and bromentum

[rocky marsh]

for hsword what blessings to get?

[placid fiber]

headtaker and rampage/deathblow

[ember yew]

deathblow - headtaker

[placid fiber]

Headtaker is the main blessing, the other 2 are just icing on the cake

The heavy sword is good with whatever career skill you bring

I am 90% sure the caxe is, as well

Just not 100% certain about how well the caxe does with shroudfield when compared to a heavy sword

[placid fiber]

Just ask the main people here whenever you see them and they can answer any questions, generally.

[rocky marsh]

yeah i tagged you cause i saw you were online xD

[acoustic dune]

OK hear me out

Ogryn throwing players around

[placid fiber]

Could be fun, if you could keep them from ledging teammates

[acoustic dune]

Imagine a zealot drop kicking a sniper

[ornate bone]

dats funny asf

ppl not knowing how to dodge em or smth

[acoustic dune]

The question is how far and does he do damage to the one being thrown

[ornate bone]

from throwing i dont think u take dmg

but when he slam u on da ground

[acoustic dune]

Just crouch

Before hitting the ground

I demand we have a sub categories rock throw

It's just ogryn being able to throw around people at other people

Throwing pox walker on a crusher or smth

[copper hawk]

I think we should eat u

[ornate bone]

man

3 lvl 30s insta wiping in heresy almost

[fading vale]

this is completely false

[placid fiber]

I stand corrected, then

[fading vale]

caxe got better with BM that kills 4 things per swing

[placid fiber]

I will go hang my head in shame.

[fading vale]

Rashad one of the most busted weapons rn

struggles versus nothing and the majority of the game is solved by light spam

[ember yew]

https://tenor.com/view/easy-red-easy-button-red-button-gif-4642542

[fading vale]

and you can even light multiple shotgunners and gunners down in 1 swing with buffs etc

you seem to have a dodge jump bind issue

[lethal totem]

which devil sword is the good one again

[fading vale]

the 4 is the preferred one IIRC

[olive raven]

maniac better

[sly mauve]

they fixed relay station shortcut -.-

[ornate bone]

[polar nexus]

https://youtu.be/WwYEqCLL7fY?si=Mtvap2fPZkB8B3ge

[zinc talon]

I sometimes wonder if I spoil her

Looking at her sleep in her fireplace catbed, next to her fox suit Mario stuffie

[lone pecan]

Pets can never be too spoiled

[zinc talon]

Changed my tune pretty quick on that bit tho

Cuz that is human grade salmon I bought for you

now you don't like it?!

You sure did when it was my dinner

[frail copper]

mk 4 chain axe supremacy

[zinc talon]

The thing is just silly strong

[frail copper]

Its a raw damage dealer theres nothing thats particularly special about it aside from the latching mechanic which is very cool

[sinful widget]

which hammer to use?

[zinc talon]

crusher

[fiery ingot]

yes

[sinful widget]

i already have one, i just want to get sth else so i can use later on

[zinc talon]

start with the crucis

then try the ironhelm

the ironhelm is unique in that it won't send your combo chain attacks back to L1/H1

and it cleaves smols

crucis though is the beeg numbaaaaaas sweatlord min max boss delete

yeah man you really helped stealthing up to that plague ogryn and killing it

did you have to wait the entire fight for your stealth cooldown tho

[brisk raft]

As crazy as crucis is, I rely on Ironhelm more in pubs, the cleave and lack of selfstun is useful

[zinc talon]

you mean when you boooioioioioioing back after hitting something powered up

[brisk raft]

Yee that

[zinc talon]

at least crucis doesn't have the activation slowdown any more

that made it feel a ton more fluid to me

but, again

the biggest problem I have with both hammers is they are not the crusher

[brisk raft]

Crusher is ...well, crushin it

Is it weird that I want crazy physics? Like a powered attack sending enemies flying like Sauron did

Let Impact blessings like Thunderstrike do that, reduces enemy mass so they get flung further into the distance

Won't be useful as a meta but it'd be funny like Showstopper on Flamer

[cursive viper]

Hitting an enemy with the corpse should also knock said enemy over

[pale kelp]

In the weapon document, it suggests among other perks to take, to take dmg against unarmored for the knife, any reason for this?

Think its one of the few weapons that dmg against unarmored comed up, even more peculiarly it doesnt list dmg against unyielding. Is there something im missing?

[twilit otter]

is this a pretty standard zealot build?

[keen silo]

how much of a difference is 80% first target and 69
is the difference very noticable?

[keen silo]

try to get thy wrath be swift from the loner line (right line mid)

[twilit otter]

what do I drop to get it

[keen silo]

which gun is it?

[keen silo]

need to get 4 points
at this point idk if its worth getting

do u want to use stun grenade?

[rocky marsh]

goddam

must be wounds build?

or can go shoutspam build

[keen silo]

u can do just fine with fury of faithful
i use that on rashad
weapon is so good

only have to aim weakspots on carapace

[rocky marsh]

what perk to get on rashad?

[keen silo]

brutal momentum

and decapitator...?

ig

perk same

flak maniac

[rocky marsh]

ahhh

[quartz silo]

What am I looking for perk and blessing wise on a chain axe? What are its dump stats?

[zinc talon]

Damage sorta takes a back seat to shredder in terms of total damage output

Since the old one locks targets and saws on lights and the new one on heavies

Head taker and slaughterer are the most straightforward choices

[quartz silo]

I have a bunch of mk4 transcendent ones I’ve just never touched after I got them

[zinc talon]

But there's plenty of room to pack thrust and/or beittleness instead

My thrust new axe can kill a damnatiin slug in four heavy revs

And a daemon in twenty seconds or so

Lil less

But thrust is a big opportunity cost

[quartz silo]

I’ve got one with Stam, elite damage headtaker and bloodthirsty

[zinc talon]

You're activating, then charging the swing

And if you miss or get knocked back all that damage you shoulda been doing is lost

[quartz silo]

Other than that I’ve got a very well statted stam, groaners, slaughterer, head taker

[zinc talon]

Which variant are these

[quartz silo]

Mk4

Orestes

[zinc talon]

Bloodthirsty to me is wasted on the 4

[twilit otter]

re perk it

[quartz silo]

Again its just junk that I’ve had pile up

[zinc talon]

You're already killing almost everything on one heavy Rev as is

Or two or three lights

Revving, killing, revving again, all for a crit

Doubt it's faster killing than just swinging

Besides crit build already has you sitting at like, 70

All bells and whistles

Bleed on Rev hit is lackluster as well

Oh just remembered

The old chain axe doesn't Rev on heavy

But the new one does

And thrust applies to both the swing damage and all the sawing

[quartz silo]

Is there much reason to use it over hammer? Never really felt a pull towards the axe

[zinc talon]

Its very

Desperate

But in a good light

The more calculating you are on getting to thar far target unscathed the far better you so overall

I personally like the old more than the new

Because they gave it some valid space in the sense of what role it fills in the team

Also, most importantly

You can swap out the head and teeth for a 1h chainswords parts with customization

And your brain will drown you in dopamine cuz its fooled you have a brand new weapon to play with and learn

Plus the attack animations can look even more ultraviolet than what weapon they came with

[quartz silo]

I’m thinking I’ll pick up the new evis

Need to get perks for it tho

[zinc talon]

New evis will work until retirement with flak carapace rampage and wrath or sweep

Cleave is a safe dump stat if you keep an eye on it

The sword cleaves on light 1 Rev up

As opposed to the II doing it on heavy 1

Light attacks are back forth

Heavies are always mauler overhead nuke up down

[ember yew]

this build sacrifices TWBS for a bit more damage, which isnt gamebreaking

unlike TWBS itself

[zinc talon]

And the push attack throat stab will auto Rev and chew for free

The next light after is the bigger damage 4th I think attack

And the heavy attack after the light attack charges faster than any other heavy

All the heavy strikes have a built in mandatory minimum time to charge before they release as heavies

Time it too short, and you'll wind up at first foe the heavy then swap to a light when you release lmb

And it'll be from an anhle

[umbral kindle]

New evis is just chainsaw executioner sword and you can't convince me otherwise

[oak ermine]

This is very correct

[rocky marsh]

kjerad

does caxe have big/good crit multipliers?

also just realized your profile picture is the rat being grabbed

[umbral kindle]

Bloodthirsty is a pretty big waste of a blessing on a weapon with so many great options

[oak ermine]

It’s a reimagined version of it, yeah

[umbral kindle]

You have to be very, very unlucky to brick a chaxe

[oak ermine]

Not really, I don’t remember it scaling very well with Finesse in general

[rocky marsh]

so for caxe wound build > shoutspam?

[oak ermine]

Nor does it need finesse terribly (additional modifiers of it, not the item modifier ofc.)

[oak ermine]

Anything goes, but I definitely would rather not build it for Blazing Piety KS

Inexorable and Martyr should certainly work, however

[rocky marsh]

inexorable is mommentum?

[oak ermine]

idk why people call it momentum

(probably because the stacks have that 'keyword')

[rocky marsh]

idk i remembered it as momentum, i think cause the stacks are called that from what i rmb

tbh

i like shoutspam build the most, but i want to try something other than crusher weapon and i rmb caxe feeling pretty nice

someone suggest ed hsword

[ember yew]

because full name is just

people always shorten things

[oak ermine]

INEXORABLE JUDGEMENT

Now that's a proper name

[rocky marsh]

oh yeah others called it judgement

i just remember the term momentum

thats all

[ember yew]

god knows why stacks called momentum

[vast basin]

Aren't cleave blessings on new evis suboptimal because of the 4 cleave limit?

[oak ermine]

Oh don't worry about it

[ember yew]

while momentum also the blessing

on weapons

[oak ermine]

I can't really influence the language that is commonly used

[rocky marsh]

kjerad

you know what i call vet's gun?

pfoom pfoom gun

[oak ermine]

Is that plasma?

[rocky marsh]

i think so, not sure the actual name

the one that will overheat

and blue

[oak ermine]

that's plasma, then

[rocky marsh]

all the vets i see use that and psword

keyword: and

[ember yew]

https://tenor.com/view/easy-red-easy-button-red-button-gif-4642542

[oak ermine]

All vets use plasma, because plasma is ridiculously good right now

[ember yew]

psword is just top tier powerful and top tier boring to use

perfect combo

[oak ermine]

Okay, either plasma or revolver, sometimes Columnus 5 IAG

[rocky marsh]

i see vet gameplay and im bored to death

[oak ermine]

I don't see other weapons often

[rocky marsh]

columnus + evis/chsword (can't tell) for zealot

[vast basin]

Agri braced chads

[rocky marsh]

i see people use them and im like why

fucking psword one taps everything below mauler

[vast basin]

The sapper shovels are kinda nice if you don't bring plasma

[ember yew]

https://tenor.com/view/rambo-first-blood-gif-23989356

[oak ermine]

I like variety and good skill check things, so I naturally avoid things like plasma

[rocky marsh]

that weapon alone makes vet look stronger melee wise than zealot

[oak ermine]

And play, IDK, Vraks 7 HHAG

[open pollen]

Telopots has posted a 3ish hour video of them talking to TAC and I am developing opinions as a result. Its terminal.

[oak ermine]

TAC?

[rocky marsh]

whats the context im confused

[open pollen]

Tiny Angry Crab

[oak ermine]

Oh

That’s interesting

[open pollen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwYEqCLL7fY

[rocky marsh]

oh i saw that on my feed

whats it about?

i don't think darktide is complex enough to have a 3hour youtube video, personal opinion of course

[open pollen]

Well, first 20 minutes so far has been mostly about darktide enemy design, why its bad and suggestions on possible changes to make it less bad.

[oak ermine]

DT closed Tester/Psykhanium warrior talks to a hard gamer

What can go wrong

[ember yew]

is he an Ogryn?

if he's one

[rocky marsh]

enemy design is bad?

[ember yew]

i dont trust that guy

[quaint verge]

Mostly everything laz and dough says comes from him

[rocky marsh]

the telepots guy or the crab guy?

[quaint verge]

Crab

[open pollen]

I mean, according to them, but they do bring up good points I havn't considered before. Hence the development of opinions.

[rocky marsh]

what are the points? if you don't mind sharing

[north sedge]

https://tenor.com/view/crab-rave-dancing-dancing-crab-gif-16543314

crab knows all

[rocky marsh]

oh stan is spider toe

?

[north sedge]

(He is also why crusher good now)

[hushed knoll]

HI DOUGH

[hushed knoll]

Yes

[rocky marsh]

no wait

no

this guy is not u

[hushed knoll]

What

No

[hushed knoll]

He’s making fun of me

[hushed knoll]

[rocky marsh]

wait you are the guy that microwave icecream right
that and your profile picture is very distincitve

[hushed knoll]

So good

[ornate bone]

Stan is a food connoisseur

[quaint verge]

And lots of more disturbing concoctions

[rocky marsh]

oh ya detective hammer, im sitll here

[hushed knoll]

I am about to use ketchup for good

[rocky marsh]

am waiting for da points

thanks for typing it out

[hushed knoll]

Eggs with ketchup and coffee is amazing

[rocky marsh]

wait you put ketchup in your coffee?

[north sedge]

Crab knows everything about dt, and stan knows everything about bad food

[lusty turtle]

is this like duck duck goose

[quaint verge]

It's his typing scent

[lusty turtle]

stan how

[quaint verge]

New phone, new autocorrect

[rocky marsh]

i know what is assam

but what is assam library?

what

[lusty turtle]

what is stan

[north sedge]

"It's just the association my mind makes"

[fleet zealot]

Raaaa Ferret Blast

[rocky marsh]

wow you are his translator or somehting? amazing

[fleet zealot]

Uranium do go that mass tho ngl

[north sedge]

Oh i just was there for the conversation

[south folio]

horrifying (your profile picture and name, that is)

[quaint verge]

He hates it

[fleet zealot]

Do not use non newtonian lubricant

[south folio]

stan would never

[royal vortex]

the best part about the non newtonian fluid thing was it kicking off a miniature saga in vc

when mainerz asked him if he had learned what non newtonian fluid is

[open pollen]

I am embarrassed to say this, but I am really oblivious in my media consumption. So I never realized:

-BoN is not fun to fight or satisfying to kill.

-BoN could be redesigned into a "Troop Transport" (This idea is wild to me)

-Bulwarks could be redesigned to be more fun to fight in melee without sacrificing line-breaking

-Ragers have multiple different combos with like, 7 different attacks in them.

-Timed blocks could be a possible solution to ragers being unfun in melee.

-Spawn apparently has a directional dodging mechanic?

-Most enemies are probably unfinished/proto designs due to the rushed release. It never occurred to me that if crafting/classes/etc were unfinished, that enemies could also be unfinished. In other words, I never even considered changing the current enemy design, I accepted them as complete without question.

[royal vortex]

the best part about rager combos is they are optimally designed to be as fkin annoying as possible

with the double-hits n shit

[twilit otter]

playing ogryn then ragers and bullwarks become a joke

[ember yew]

Well, maybe there's problem, like everything about Beast of Nurgle is already in Games Workshop TCG or in whatever archive and they cant just do anything about something, that thing doesnt do in the universe.
Dont forget that GS held hostages all of Warhammer (fantasy) and W40K games

[twilit otter]

why is BoN not fun to fight? because you have to use range?

[ember yew]

Fatshark gonna lose W40k license if they go against GS

[quaint verge]

@royal vortex show em the clip of a funny BoN

Backwards puker

[royal vortex]

https://streamable.com/wfuldg

dude was SHITTIN

[ember yew]

[lusty turtle]

ye all warhammer games have GW observers n assistants who have to approve stuff

so don't see much happenin to bon

[sharp zodiac]

Not unless I have anything to say and I do

[lusty turtle]

i'd like to see new ranged enemies tbh

[ember yew]

Chaos Space Marines

lets go

[lusty turtle]

having only 1 ranged elite makes firefights kind of weird

[mental coral]

psyker chat is arguing whether fatshark is malicious or incompetent so uh

whats zealot chat doing rn

[lusty turtle]

[sharp zodiac]

Scab rocketeer

[reef pewter]

like to see it deleted but ya'know

[mental coral]

[lusty turtle]

[quaint verge]

Rocket launchers

[crude lake]

Idk agree with any of these

[lusty turtle]

i wanna see plasma gunners

[sharp zodiac]

I said that first smh

[open pollen]

I would assume Lore BoN have more to them than what Darktide BoNs have going for them, no? Or do they already play exactly as they are described?

[quaint verge]

Or dregs with shredders that charges at you

[royal vortex]

i want new elites in general but also the ai director has this huge problem where it will very often skew the ratio of melee/ranged elites super hard

[open pollen]

I mean, they are opinions.

[lusty turtle]

no lore BoN are super fucking boring

[royal vortex]

and it's like why are we designing a whole game about fighting different enemy types at once

[open pollen]

No cap?

[royal vortex]

when the game can just decide

all u get

is gunner/shotgunner packs

[quaint verge]

BoN is just a puppy, that's it

[sharp zodiac]

All rocket launchers

[ember yew]

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Beast_of_Nurgle

[sharp zodiac]

Prepare for some explosions

[ember yew]

we need to compare it to the lore

leaving a layer of stinking slime in their wake.

true

[crude lake]

Agreed! I didn’t mean to say they are wrong, I just don’t agree

[lusty turtle]

they basically just infect everything they touch and eat stuff (hense the goo trail n stuff)

they are one of the least interesting demons

[tropic pelican]

you side dodge all of spawn's attacks and it'll miss

[quaint verge]

I want the hatred evolution of the BoN

[royal vortex]

ive come to the conclusion the vt2 patrol thing really does not translate well to this game cuz a lot of the time u end just just fighting 10-20x of one elite

[tropic pelican]

dodge toward spawn's tentacle arm when it grabs and it'll miss that too

[crude lake]

A lot of those complaints are the reason those specific units are in the game.

[quaint verge]

A flying monster, what could go wrong?

[royal vortex]

and the game doesn't work v well with that

[open pollen]

Ah, so like Dark Souls?

[ember yew]

its touch causes paralysis
not true

FS time to fix

[sharp zodiac]

Rotflies

[ember yew]

Despite its fearsome appearance and deadly attributes, the Beast is an affectionate creature that behaves in all respects exactly like an over-friendly and easily excited puppy.

[lusty turtle]

touch of death bon lets go

[fleet zealot]

Basically impossible to dodge a patrol in darktide

[ember yew]

Beast of Nurgle at home when

[lusty turtle]

i hate nurgle lore

[royal vortex]

i dont really care about that part

[sharp zodiac]

I prefer slaneesh lore

[royal vortex]

i dont want enemies to spawn that im not supposed to kill

[sharp zodiac]

(I know absolutely nothing)

[royal vortex]

the issue is that all the patrols have compositions of 1 elite

[tropic pelican]

i just dislike bulwark shields blocking a larger area than it looks like

[royal vortex]

and this is both super boring and dumb to play around cuz u either get the plasma guy firing 2 shots into a line of shotgunners and thinking hes exceptionally skilled

[ember yew]

Though few know the truth, the putrid daemonic creatures known as Rot Flies are, in fact, metamorphosed forms of Beasts of Nurgle who have given in to spite and despair.

well

heres an idea

[royal vortex]

or the clip of the redditor swapping targets every 3 columnus iag shots

missing half of his bullets

[ember yew]

if the beast is alive for too long

[royal vortex]

and then going "damn idk what i was supposed to do against all those ragers"

[ember yew]

its metamorphose into a new stronger boss, fully regens HP, become mobile and deadly

so its a race

against time

Rot Flies were once Beasts of Nurgle that have since been transformed by the will of the Lord of Decay into hideous Daemonic insect steeds similar in appearance to giant corpse flies whose appearance is so repugnant it scars the mind.

[open pollen]

I mean, Darktide's BoN already doesn't match this description very well.

[ember yew]

yeah

the beast does not eat anything

[lusty turtle]

Truely, a mechanic they have never included

[ember yew]

Victims are caressed, petted, and stroked with the Daemon's multiple tentacles, while the long tongue delivers slobbery and slimy licks.

this ^ sounds like certain japanese favorite genres

[north sedge]

Bon chews on you and can eat enemies

[lusty turtle]

[sharp zodiac]

And heals a lil when eating enemies

[fleet zealot]

Daemons vary wildly in appearance

They will fit the theme of their god but the BoN design in DT is just as canon as others

[open pollen]

I don't really have any ideas to fix it myself. But in the video they mentioned it buffing other enemies, eating/regurgitating them ("Troop Transport"). As well as making its frontal attacks based more on dodging its tongue than puke.

I would also assume we could make tweaks to the puke/slime mechanic itself. Perhaps it could provide a debuff instead of corruption damage? Maybe it makes all subsequent attacks that break toughness deal corruption damage instead of directly, for example.

Neither of those would go against the spirit of the creature, no? Also, I feel some of the animations could be more "Playful" but that's a personal opinion there.

[lusty turtle]

the transport would def go against the spirit of bon bon

[open pollen]

How so? Its just grabbing one of its toys and bringing it to you.

[lusty turtle]

the rest is w/e, it could work in theory but i don't really see it happening

[open pollen]

Dogs do that all the time

[fleet zealot]

They are playful

It is about perspective

They do an excited little dance when aggroing on a person

It just looks scary as shit to a little human

[lusty turtle]

"transport" to me implies carrying multiple, which bon isn't gonna have the forethought to go pick up a bunch of people to vomit on you. And if its just picking up one guy at a time thats such a nothing event to occur most people wouldn't even notice it, it just wouldn't be impactful enough

[zinc talon]

https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/246

[open pollen]

Well, it would presumably favor melee elites/ogryns. And the regurgitated enemy would have a buff.

I think they also mentioned it having it spawn enemies as it goes. Like flies, although how that'd work I cannae imagine.

I ain't saying that's the best solution here, only that it's something I never would have considered had I not watched the video. And that it doesn't go against the spirit of BoN. Its effectiveness is an aside.

[royal vortex]

the part about making the vore thing based on a tongue attack u can dodge is really cool

except for the part where knowing fs itll be like the cspawn grab and super annoying in its own ways (if they did that)

[lusty turtle]

simply dodge cspawn

[quaint verge]

And carry you to an active healing crate

[south folio]

dodge (off of a cliff)

[royal vortex]

i will literally never get over 1 game i played on p12 monstrosity maelstrom with a hb3 and high ping

where a full match of malding about hitreg was capped off with the delay on subsequent charges eating my first input to finish off a weakened cspawn

the next shot ghost hits

and then it hits me into the air against a wall and combos me before i drop to the ground and i go down

[lusty turtle]

anyone wanna join me in being garbage at the game for a match or 2? first few matches back since surgery

[open pollen]

I wish. But I am technically at work :c

[lusty turtle]

ghost hits and the like, ping eating inputs needs to die

its awful

[open pollen]

I hope you recover swiftly!

[lusty turtle]

does the plasma still sometimes shoot but not fire the particle effects?

[visual stream]

wth that's not cute at all, not canon

[royal vortex]

p sure yeah

the compressed air can of DOOM

[lusty turtle]

goin well so far!

[royal vortex]

on one hand suffering through bad internet with this game is super frustrating on the other hand i am genuinely like

impressed at the different ways they can fine-tune the net code to create new and annoying things

like before the plasma charge rate bug fix the ripper was the only gun i know of that would break at high ping and stop playing animations/sounds

and now it has a friend

[lusty turtle]

except the plasma one isn't ping replated it happens no matter your ping in lobbies

but not in psykanium

so it IS network related but cares not for how good the connection is

[royal vortex]

i see

[lusty turtle]

i hate it

plasma unplayable

[open pollen]

"Ogryns should have more HP by spawn less often" - TAC

Hmm. I am on the fence about this one. On one hand, its more lore-friendly. But on the other I really like fighting crusher parades.

[north sedge]

Eh it's fine since the shot still happens, just looks goofy

[royal vortex]

the problem in general is that the game has too many enemies

[open pollen]

In terms of variety or count?

[royal vortex]

count

not enough variety imo but i have 2000 hours i dont count

[lusty turtle]

UNPLAYABLE

[royal vortex]

i think one way or the other u have to tune down the clown shit like a psword two-shotting crushers

reapers are super awful to fight

[open pollen]

Aye, one could see it as a failing that it requires so many enemies to really get my blood pumping.

[royal vortex]

and they just get worse the more you add

[lusty turtle]

ye the spawn count needs to be dropped but that means either more deadly enemies or we need new enemy variety

i honestly don't want more health again on stuff

[royal vortex]

i think reapers as like the GIGA-GUNNER would be super cool if they did anything other than act as basically a giant fan to force anyone not running smth like ghost or TWBS to stand back and shoot them

[lusty turtle]

bullwarks should def be more stagger resistant tho

[royal vortex]

i don't really want them to do the power creep arms race any more

at some point u have to stop the numbers inflation or face the consequences

[north sedge]

So you want reapers only mode, got it

[royal vortex]

[lusty turtle]

i think ragers need adjustment, other then that they should look at filling out the roster more isntead of buffing things

[royal vortex]

ragers/bulwarks/shotgunners are the ones i want them to change the most

in no particular order

[lusty turtle]

i miss launch shotgunners

[royal vortex]

SAME

unironically

[lusty turtle]

they are so easy to dodge i was fine with the punishment

[open pollen]

I am down with anything that:

-doesn't remove their role as linebreakers.
-makes them less annoying to fight.

Hell, they could remove/rework the sheild bash attack and I'd be satisfied, but my expectations are low.

I mean, if KF2 can make a good linebreaker I am sure FS can figure it out eventually.

[royal vortex]

like obvs it was a little ridiculous but i would take them over the current version which are just basically guys who push you but from a distance

[royal vortex]

exactly

i don't know if that'd be a popular implementation so more generally i just want them to make them serve a more distinct purpose

[lusty turtle]

i think tho the enemies are majorativley a lot healthier now

[royal vortex]

and decrease the knockback and make them hit harder

[lusty turtle]

the game IS easier for it, but thats because theres a lot less bullshit deaths

[royal vortex]

oh yeah

[lusty turtle]

the fact that, on a good day, i can confidently melee fight a hound wave

thats such a huge step from launch

[open pollen]

Oh, here's a thought. What if you could break a bulwark's shield? Its technically carapace, no? Maybe doing so causes the bulwark to become more aggressive/unlocks new attack patterns.

[royal vortex]

disablers/specials are generally less cancer

i mean like bursters and dogs functioning as enemies is a step up from how it was before

[royal vortex]

my thoughts on enemies are that we should generally avoid enabling gameplay that can grief people

[open pollen]

I actually think the specials are in a pretty good state. This is only from the perspective that I enjoy dodging/countering multiple specials at once. Dodge a net, Dodge a dog, Dodge a mutie, push a burster, dodge another mutie, etc.

[royal vortex]

(something fs shouldve put more fucking thought into before releasing certain special types)

[lusty turtle]

god this

"but guys we should summon demons when we perils"

[royal vortex]

and i absolutely do not want enemies that have permanent mode switches based on something another player can do to it

[open pollen]

Oh, I wasn't aware that idea would grief people. Could you explain?

[royal vortex]

because i think this sets up too much potential for ppl to get trolled or to undeservedly flame a guy

[lusty turtle]

my party that has 2 4 wound psykers who fully die 8 times between them exclusivley to perils

[open pollen]

Ah, I see.

[gray ice]

The authentic psyker™ experience

[lusty turtle]

your fighting a blob of bullwarks

someone breaks all their shields

[royal vortex]

yea what skele said

like if i have shield-raised bulwarks taking up slots keeping shit from behind it from hitting me

[open pollen]

I didn't think it'd make the enemy any harder to fight. Just add different attack patterns. You're still dodging them, no?

[royal vortex]

cuz im doing something

god knows what

and some guy breaks them all when i want the bulwarks to have their shields up

like if i turn my back to snipe specials or something

(hypothetically)

and i turn around and these dudes are now beatin the shit out of me

not really cool

[lusty turtle]

if it being more aggressive doesn't make it more dangerous, then theres no reason to make the shield breakable tbh

[royal vortex]

yea i mean the thing crab proposes

is that on the approach the bulwark can like screen for the other elites

and then he drops the shield and gets more aggressive so its like trading defensive power for more offensive pressure

so u reasonably have to make the bulwark harder to survive once ur closer

[open pollen]

It would stop them from shield bashing and make them easier to hit. It should be a net benefit to the player, no?

[royal vortex]

the shield bash is a really stupid attack

[open pollen]

Indeed

[royal vortex]

it should just not be a thing in its current implementation

overall i think if ur going to do a "mode switch" it needs to be based on something much more reasonable like player proximity

crab's suggestion is basically perfect imo because it adds a specific layer of decision making that isn't too complicated

[open pollen]

I think they suggested that in the video! A tank skirt that drops when they engage in melee.

[gray ice]

Puts away shield

pulls out twinblade

[royal vortex]

yea

[open pollen]

Aye, I think that'd be the same result either way.

[cerulean pike]

put away shield

Pull out two shields

[royal vortex]

well so i think the thing here

is if we make the shield carapace

and breakable

[wheat nymph]

The ogyrn special

[open pollen]

THE WALL

[royal vortex]

you inevitably get stupid shit like a guy bringing a rending strikes onslaught recon lasgun

and going

"im gonna break all the shields"

and this beyond the existential issue of rending and brittleness

is super dumb

in an immersion way

[fleet zealot]

Behold, a little dude

[royal vortex]

something i think to consider is how you would still meaningfully differentiate the "bulwark solving" weapons like bolter or crusher

[wheat nymph]

The dreg gunner watching 4 ogyrns perform the turtle formation whilst sprinting forward

[open pollen]

Hmm. You could make it immune to rending? But a bolter guy or thammer zealot should be busting shields no problem, no?

[royal vortex]

i mean u could but at this point we're getting to the point where it functions less like a physical object the guy is holding

and more like a void shield from an assassination target

[lusty turtle]

but josho that build is overpowered!

[gray ice]

Rip recon lasgun gone but not forgotten

[royal vortex]

i think it demonstrated fairly effectively why giving characters access to so much ADM-flattening capability is dumb

i dont even know if it was that good

[royal vortex]

i never saw anyone but crab use it in a match and when i played with him he was running around hunting daemonhosts with kraks

[lusty turtle]

i mean ADM affecting range is dumb as sh-

[lusty turtle]

[wheat nymph]

Recon is good for just pure b e a m i n g

[open pollen]

Well, it would still be directional, and it would still move out of the way during attacks. You could slay a bulwark without ever touching the shield, which is not true for bubbles

[lusty turtle]

it wasn't

[fading vale]

(same tier list)

[wheat nymph]

Aint no way

[lusty turtle]

literally any other automatic got better DPS out of the same setup

[wheat nymph]

Whoever made this should never rate again

[lusty turtle]

but people tricked themselves into thinking it was good cause u could kill a crusher in ~50 shots

[fleet zealot]

Recon was only viable for one patch and even then it wasnt the best

[lusty turtle]

who in the wah

[fading vale]

just another dipshit youtuber

[royal vortex]

this is fair, but i think you run into redundancy at this point

[open pollen]

how so?

[fleet zealot]

It just made it usable

[royal vortex]

because most high-carapace adm weapons like plasma or bolter already solve bulwarks as an issue

[wheat nymph]

Recon struggles with poxwalkers now

Its sad

[fleet zealot]

But recon being even good is cancer

[north sedge]

That tanner lindberg weirdo

[royal vortex]

and you either keep their unique ways of dealing with the bulwarks (opening the shield, penning it outright, etc) or you flatten them into "can break the shield" or "can't break the shield"

and this doesn't actually help anything that doesn't really shoot carapace if its rending immune

[fleet zealot]

It is just a cancerous design weapon that cant be too good or else everyone runs it cause it is brainless

[royal vortex]

sounds about right

[fleet zealot]

No recoil, tight spread

[royal vortex]

i wouldnt know because ive used a recon lasgun once and it felt so awful to shoot i couldnt comprehend how people wanted to use it

[wheat nymph]

You see there are multiple strats for bulwarks

Just shoot the fuckers

[fading vale]

the OG laspistol is kind of like a recon except at least 2x better

[wheat nymph]

They'll stumble eventually

[fleet zealot]

Cause laser gun go brrrrr

[lusty turtle]

basically, even at 1.0 ADM, the dps on an accatran is at best 850 dps, and you only get 0.45 finesse on it 💀

[royal vortex]

it was like shining a flashlight at enemies

[royal vortex]

is the finesse mod that terrible

what the hell

[gray ice]

I mean laser guns are cool, doesn't need much more explanation

[lusty turtle]

yes

dude i have

a sheet on my desktop

[royal vortex]

lmfao

[lusty turtle]

with full DPS breakdowns on the accatran

[north sedge]

No they're hot, dummy

[gray ice]

Why'd people use evisc even tho it was trash? Cuz cool af

[lusty turtle]

its not good

[gray ice]

[fading vale]

yeah except the people who used it would hardly ever admit it was trash and coped omega hard

[lusty turtle]

you can double the damage of the accatran, and the IAGs will still out perform them shot per shot

[royal vortex]

i use 100 shots

in this clip

[wheat nymph]

I will admit the recon has become the equivalent of coughing on your enemy

[left iron]

And killed the mutant with your melee anyway

[royal vortex]

i think my favorite quote about an IAG ever is some guy saying people who use marksman's focus with it are idiots because its high finesse "dilutes" the bonus

[lusty turtle]

[royal vortex]

...i don't know if he understands how numbers work

[gray ice]

I mean, that to me just means when a weapon is cool enough people will bend reality to jump through hoops and keep using it

I.e. bleed knife for some reason

[lusty turtle]

but ye

in summary

[royal vortex]

ppl find a way to like every weapon

[lusty turtle]

the recon lasguns were always bad

anyone saying otherwise doesn't actually know maths

[gray ice]

But at least for one patch they were usably bad

[lusty turtle]

vin

they still perform the same now as they did then

nothing has changed

💀

[gray ice]

I mean the rending

[royal vortex]

the thing was they released a handful of stupid good vet talents

[lusty turtle]

THEY STILL GET RENDING

AND IT STILL (ALMOST) LETS THEM HIT CAP

[royal vortex]

and the stupid good vet talents would synergize with the same archetype of gun as recon

[north sedge]

No they removed it forever, very sad

[royal vortex]

didnt they nerf rending strikes from 15% to 10%

a huge blow

[open pollen]

Right, but it solves it with stagger. This would solve it differently by making it a permanent state change. What would be the problem having a third solution to dealing with bulwarks?

[lusty turtle]

i hate it cause people are like "but my dps is good once i land these 16 crits"

HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO LAND

16 CRITS

WHY IS THE TARGET STILL ALIVE

[fading vale]

well you see this is why I have the best perks, crit chance and crit damage

[lusty turtle]

the loss of crit rending means nothing

[lusty turtle]

[gray ice]

Weren't there two of the rending stacking talents and one of em got changed

[royal vortex]

THEY STACKED

TO THE SAME CAP

[still mango]

Can anyone suggest a good speedy zealot stealth build that isn't troll? Wanna make a build to kinda farm plasteel

[royal vortex]

THEY WERE BOTH BRITTLENESS

i hate that

i hate ppl

[gray ice]

I'm not refuting the point legit asking

I hardly play vet lol

[left iron]

Should i prepare something for dinner myself, or should i go wandering in the streets in the hopes of finding a place with take-away food in-20C

[royal vortex]

it just made me mad

because ppl would take both

and think its doing anything useful

[fading vale]

wander the streets

[gray ice]

I'd take the streets

[lusty turtle]

stacked on the same cap, and the other one used crits to stack

so basically what has changed is uhhh you maybe hit max brittleness 0.1-0.2 seconds slower, but the DPS remains unchanged

[royal vortex]

its the same kind of gameplay issue as when a guy drags a crusher overhead into you but instead of someone trying to avoid damage someone is trying to deal it

[granite minnow]

depends on the cold factor for me

[royal vortex]

my problem is that this isn't necessary to make bulwarks more engaging

and allowing other people to change the mode of a bulwark without your input and not being able to accurately predict if it's going to happen is super annoying

[fading vale]

may have better luck if you find one/make one and then ask for feedback

[lusty turtle]

the one thing they lost was 4 crit chains, down to 2, thats the only actual major change, but as stated accatran finesse is dog so thats like... no damage loss really

[royal vortex]

if you have the Proximity Based Combat Bulwark someone has to telegraph they are going to mode switch it

because they have to walk up to it

[gray ice]

Ahh got it

[left iron]

Ooo theres a sushi restaurant 2 blocks away

[royal vortex]

or the Proximity Based Combat Bulwark is telegraphing it by walking at you

in the world where u can break the shield

decisions can be made based on the idea that a bulwark is going to be in mode 1 and then you start to execute them and suddenly he is in mode 2 because the controller bolter vet felt the wrath of the emperor pointing his crosshair in the general direction of him

[frank night]

I do not get bolters doing this

I get random autopistol bullet pings off bulwark shield

causing him to react like a small child putting his head under the blanket

[royal vortex]

it's the same thing as when some guy does smth dumb like shooting a burster but not killing it and instead pushing its body towards you

and now u have a super fkin hot potato

[frank night]

I managed to burster myself with assail

once

[gray ice]

Good job

[frank night]

thanks vin

[gray ice]

Anytime

[royal vortex]

i barreled myself with assail cuz i didnt know the shards hit it

until i consulted arco

[fading vale]

why are anime streaming apps so bad like, I pick a genre and this is how you sort it?????

[frank night]

post steve

[north sedge]

I have never blown up a burster in my face ever

[gray ice]

What the

[north sedge]

1 is my favorite genre though

[open pollen]

Well, most decisions I make about bulwarks regard working around their shield. Namely, provoke a melee attack so I can open them up for a counter attack, or crack their shield if I am able. If their shield is gone, it wouldn't change my approach all that much, short of making my plans easier to execute.

Can you provide an example of a decision that becomes non-executable if the shield breaks?

[gray ice]

C is the greatest genre

[north sedge]

https://tenor.com/view/one-punch-man-one-punch-ok-okay-gif-13916865

[royal vortex]

so the original point was "you break the shield and then you would have a separate more aggressive moveset"

[fading vale]

sorry that would be under O

[frank night]

exquisite steve

[royal vortex]

an enemy that has two different fundamental approaches to combat necessarily needs two different kinds of answers to these modes

otherwise u have put in a bunch of effort for something that is mostly pointless

[north sedge]

Don't be ridiculous he's not O punch man

[open pollen]

I think there's confusion around what I mean by "More Aggressive". I don't mean rager-aggressive. I mean instead of doing shield bashes they have like, a second melee attack.

[north sedge]

O Punch Man Where art thou

[royal vortex]

well realistically if u want an enemy that deals damage u can't use any of the existing bulwark animations

because theyre all terrible

and super telegraphed

[gray ice]

If you throw a nickel in a well and wish really hard O Punch Man will hear your prayers

[royal vortex]

the current actual damage dealing attack where he swings the club at you literally just exists to bait the shield swing

ur not actually at risk of being hurt which is a problem

[north sedge]

https://tenor.com/view/two-face-coin-batman-harvey-gif-18731309

[gray ice]

Do you think he has really bad morning breath but only on one side

[royal vortex]

but i think regardless of animations the big difference between bulwark mode 1 and bulwark mode 2 hypothetically is the impacts of having a shield

[north sedge]

One side is minty and the other is seafood

[royal vortex]

for instance right now a gunner's shots will go into a bulwark and stop due to hitmass

[north sedge]

(He sees food and he eats it)

[royal vortex]

and this can stagger the bulwark which is a blessing and a curse because it's a super mild stagger from behind which gives him stagger res

[open pollen]

Breaking the shield could also have them stagger and play a sound que (If they ever fix the dang audio). This would give you time to change decisions if need be.

Also, I like the telegraphed moves. I think ogryns should be easy to read/dodge, and only become problematic in groups/with other enemy types.

The telegraphs would also make the state change better, no? Nowhere near burster/DH trigger levels of grief-ability.

[gray ice]

mmm bluegill listerine my favorite mouthwash flavor

[royal vortex]

the problem with the telegraphing is the attack is so slow for what it does it's basically harmless

[open pollen]

Pogryn is my favorite boss to fight precisely because of the telegraphs.

[royal vortex]

you would have to speed him up somewhat

and ideally give him a couple different swing arcs he can do

a lil interactivity if u wanna duel the guy

[open pollen]

The harm of the Ogryn is to soak damage and distract from other, more deadly threats.

[meager turret]

That moment when you go to bait out the bulwark’s attack and he just bonks you with the shield

[open pollen]

And to hit hard if you fail to dodge said slow, telegraphed attacks

[royal vortex]

well

that's what the crusher does

the bulwark needs to be more focused on disruption

[open pollen]

That's what the shield accomplishes. It doesn't matter if you dodge, crack or break it. The result is the same, no?

[royal vortex]

i.e he needs moves that become more dangerous when combined with other enemies because of how he functions

well it does matter quite a bit

[open pollen]

go on

[royal vortex]

the 3 different methods (2 proposed, one existing) all have different outcomes assuming you disengage and run away

[meager turret]

Crusher’s got a quick attack that deletes my vet’s entire HP pool

Although at 0 toughness but still

Kinda nuts

[royal vortex]

the real one: the guy just brings the shield back up and keeps walking, current bulwark implementation

the tank armor skirts thing: he'll keep walking and then when he gets back into melee distance he goes into offensive disruption mode thing

breaking it: he cannot bring the shield back up

[open pollen]

Aye, I follow ye

[royal vortex]

so if u have a 100% success rate on killing a bulwark at the first available opportunity i guess it doesn't really matter

but in practical terms these all have different outcomes

[royal vortex]

the lil running punch thing he can do is kinda comically strong yea

[still mango]

What do you guys think about something like this? https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9b19799e-4df7-4e9b-9980-694abcef6af9/speedy-plasteel-farm

[fading vale]

my issues with bulwarks are: stagger reset mechanics, 1 frame shield bash, 180 degree force field, disablers going through them, and the way they stack with eachother

[meager turret]

I’d rather a bulwark lose the 270 degree forcefield but be able to fuck with the player it’s targeting more

[fading vale]

Regarding weapons, uncanny is best in slot on knife by far, then you can run precog/executor/flesh tearer/riposte

for the revolver, hand cannon over crucian and flak over crit chance

[violet hornet]

Seeing a bulwark snapping to face me when I don't quite hit them perfectly from behind is annoying as fuck

Especially when visually they're not facing me and I'm hitting around the shield

[royal vortex]

bulwarks being able to completely turn on a dime and basically perfect parry your attacks

is really funny and also really dumb

[meager turret]

Trying to help a teammate by shooting the bulwark in the very clearly exposed side only for it to dink just makes me want to leave them to the 1v1 because I don’t feel like I did anything wrong

[royal vortex]

my favorite bulwark moments are the ones where both you and another teammate keep side-doding the same way when you're trying to get at least one of you behind it

[open pollen]

Aye, I consider the outcome of shield breaking to be the ability to actively demote bulwarks from "Elite threat" to "light-elite threat". I think this is a good thing, as it solves a lot of the issues folks have with bulwarks without removing their primary function.

But it also provides a default solution to the "Me and my team can't follow up" dilemma. If no one can get around the shield, it will eventually break.

[royal vortex]

because it's just a complete cohesion breakdown and a failure of basic teamwork

[fading vale]

I would also not run any of those curio perks, if you want a stam perk go for stam regen, combat ability regen isn't worth it, number too small, block efficiency is bad, sprint efficiency not really worth either, the fastest tech for movement is heavy into slide so it's not like you are gonna run out of stamina ever

[royal vortex]

i don't particularly agree with the idea of turning the shields into a carapace damage tax if you fuck up fighting them

[open pollen]

How so?

[royal vortex]

because the issue comes down to it's too easy to "fuck up" fighting them and they're super punishing in dumb ways

[gray ice]

I just don't like the fact they can spawn in a pack of 6 and run at me

[meager turret]

It would still leave them with a pretty big time cost I’d say if you had to break the shield

[royal vortex]

the "armor skirts" idea i agree with more because not only does it make them more interesting, you can also make them a lot more fair if the shield shrinks/you can better engage them as a teammate by pulling them into melee

because now you can actually have one guy doing a certain thing to make life for his teammates easier as a baseline interaction

[meager turret]

And time cost is pretty important with other nonsense being tossed at you

[gray ice]

I've never been happy to see 6 bulwarks unless I have kant

[fading vale]

and for the build, do not go momentum toughness, get the dodge stack one, and you should get second wind instead of the stealth toughness

[vast basin]

Me and my crusher about to stagger all 6 bulwarks at once

[royal vortex]

in the world where you just break the shield it basically comes down to full frontally hitting a bulwark with a melee weapon

because almost everything that does ranged carapace damage w/o rending already deals with bulwarks

[fading vale]

let us shoot through the bulwark eye slot

[royal vortex]

monkey's paw curls anything with bullet magnetism is incapable of doing it

[visual stream]

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't phase through you and then aggro almost every single time

[open pollen]

Ah, I think I'm stating to get your point. Or, at least I'm seeing a problem with my suggestion. This would turn the modus operandi when encountering bulwarks to "Just keep attacking mindlessly until it breaks" instead of rewarding folks who invested in carapace or stagger specifically. Which is poor form for novice players to rely on and might hinder their advancement to higher difficulties.

[royal vortex]

yeah

[twin phoenix]

What would you change on this revolver?

[fading vale]

crit damage to flak

[gray ice]

Change crit to flak or maniac probs

[royal vortex]

i don't think shield breaking mechanics like in vt2 would work like darktide

because the player has so much more damage output

[meager turret]

World’s cleanest inventory

[twin phoenix]

Flak it is, thx 😄

[royal vortex]

if you make it accessible to all weapons you further allow for people to spend an entire match with a brauto out blasting stuff

and while run n gun is cool i dont know if u should be able to get away with just shooting everything

including enemies like bulwarks (in this hypothetical world)

[fading vale]

do you know the reason why crit and weakspot aren't recommended perks? basically really bad math

[open pollen]

What if you had a damage threshold? I.E. if your carapace damage is less than X, it does 0 damage. I think something similar exists for crushers, at least from a UX standpoint, as low carapace weapons give you the blue hitmarker.

[visual stream]

Let's all be grateful on this lovely day that you aren't required to do this stupid fucking double bash to get a one second opportunity to hit a bulwark like you do with shield rats

[royal vortex]

i think all this really does is enforce that you have to melee a bulwark shield rather than shoot it

cuz like, most melees nowadays deal decent to good carapace

[open pollen]

Ah, another thing they noted in the video. Hmm.

[still mango]

Thanks!

[open pollen]

Its a tough situation to speculate upon. But in the ideal case not all melee would be suitable for shield-breaking.

But some melee could be modified, via talents, perks or blessings, to become shield-breaking when they otherwise wouldn't

[gray ice]

I mean bulwarks as they are have a couple implementation problems, but conceptually do they really need much changing? They do their job as space hoovers

[open pollen]

They do their job well, but they also inflict psychic damage

[meager turret]

I dislike them strongly

[open pollen]

any solution should keep the former true, while solving the latter

[gray ice]

I mean if they fixed most of what laz listed I'd basically be fine with em

[royal vortex]

the job they fill specifically is to slow down combat in every situation and add a layer of annoyance to the game

[frank night]

you go round the corner

[royal vortex]

i like them more as a sort of dedicated "make the situation more complicated" guy

[frank night]

u see 6 black shields

[royal vortex]

rather than a

"make the situation more tedious" guy

[open pollen]

Well then, we have to ask ourselves "What makes fighting Ogryns fun?" Since they are, by nature, going to slow things down due to their lorgeness

[royal vortex]

i think in general the fun part of the game is fighting different elite types at once and reacting to overlapping problems

[meager turret]

“dink” makes my dopamine vanish

[open pollen]

I personally find being able to bully a larger, slower foe to be fun. Rather that's through finesse, damage or stagger.

[left iron]

After wandering around for ~30 minutes, i have found borger

[royal vortex]

what isn't fun is when combat gets halted by the presence of a specific enemy type (i.e slug or bulwarks)

[frank night]

the damage output is so insane that non-bulwark ogryns get fried like battered shrimp

altho that's been the life of a reaper since launch cos mg12 could drop it in like 3-4 headshots

[royal vortex]

i think bulwarks acting as the big "disruptor" guy is cool

[gray ice]

Well, we have multiple elite types that fulfill this role pretty well, to the point that there's probably gonna be some overlap or annoyance somewhere

[royal vortex]

almost but not quite really like the ogryn version of a rager in the sense that it aggressively tries to take space away from you

[royal vortex]

regardless of roles or what have you the implementation of bulwarks from a mechanical standpoint does not actually add to the game's combat

because what they do currently is exist to inconvenience you

the feeling invoked by seeing 20 ragers is "holy shit"

likewise with crushers

if u see 6 bulwarks u go "god damnit"

and u can scale that all the way down to 1 bulwark because they're not really an enemy they're an obstacle that moves

[meager turret]

it’a gonna mean something when I’d rather krak grenade a bulwark by themself than 3 crusher grouped together rapidly approaching bonking range

Just because they’re annoying

I like having to step around them so their back faces a teammate but i myself hate having to be that teammate trying to help

[fading vale]

bring fire nades or kant just for packs of 6 bulwarks

[meager turret]

I don’t use the flamer much but I remember testing and seeing that the bulwark just blocks flamer fire?

[fading vale]

ye

[meager turret]

Or am I insane?

[north sedge]

i bring em a six pack and a smile and they're just happy to see me

[still mango]

Does anyone know if Swift Certainty actually dodges damage, or just counts as "dodging" for the sake of procing other perks/blessings?

[open pollen]

I feel like bulwarks are foils to ragers. In the sense that bulwarks outright discourage the use of certain ranged weapons as ragers discourage melee. But both are annoying to fight.

If you have the right weapon, they become much less of an issue, but they do their "Job" regardless. I think they'd be just as disruptive if they didn't have the shield at all, and just had more health to compensate.

Which brings me right back around to my solution.

If I might modify, attacking the shield shouldn't cause a stagger/reset like it does now. The ogryn shouldn't care about the shield getting hit, unless it does enough stagger to crack him open. This would negate the "Mindlessly hit the shield" strat because the bulwark would still move/attack as if you were not hitting the shield.

[north sedge]

there's a pin explaining what it does, has to do with dodging ranged attacks by running at an angle

[royal vortex]

well then i would have to wonder what the purpose of hitting the shield would be

[fading vale]

nothing to do with actual "dodging" just the diagonal ranged mechanic at 0 stam

[open pollen]

To eventually break it

[royal vortex]

cuz the issue is as it stands when you mess up fighting a bulwark the stagger resets and you have to wait again

that's what can make them take so long

if they don't care about shield stagger you've just made them way easier to hit anyways

[left iron]

Also ranged enemies resetting the stagger

[still mango]

Sorry... Diagonal ranged mechanic?

[open pollen]

It gives you something to work towards even if you are, for whatever reason, unable to capitalize on the openings the bulwark provides in its attacks

[open pollen]

I don't see this as a bad thing.

[fading vale]

you can run at an angle and avoid enemy ranged fire

[vast basin]

If you run perpendicular to enemy gunfire you will dodge it until you run out of stamina. Swift certainty makes this work all the time

[royal vortex]

but these two changes make the other redundant. if shield breaking exists as a failsafe for fucking up bulwark combat that becomes kind of pointless if you can't fuck up fighting the bulwark

[still mango]

oh, I found the pin. Thanks guys!

[rocky marsh]

why can't more curios be on sale, or at least ensure 1 curio is in blunt armoury at all times

[still mango]

Sorry, new to discord and darktide

[timber hound]

what are good blessings for evis?

[rocky marsh]

caxe dumpstat?

[vast basin]

Mobility

Try to have above 50%

[sharp zodiac]

Rampage, shred, wrath, SS

[olive raven]

MK 2 -> Rampage/Savage Sweep
MK15 -> Rampage/Shred

[sharp zodiac]

Really depends on which

Thanks leux

[olive raven]

course frog

[timber hound]

MK2, I have one with rampage and wrath

[gray ice]

I mean what if bulwarks got a bit of redesign making them more versatile in combat and ways to kill. Off top example

Put a hole in the shield so the head is exposed from the front and give a ranged weapon. Make it so when they first aggro they kinda plant their ass somewhere and keep shooting at you. Doesn't need to be actual Gunner/shooter dmg. If you move into melee they will now pull out melee and aggressively chase and swing at those in range. Meaning the shield is down way more on average but whoever is in melee of it is getting harassed a bit harder

[royal vortex]

if u scroll up (i wouldnt but u can) the original conversation was proposals on making the bulwark less cancer

the one crab suggested that i like is u have the screening mode basically where he closes into melee with the shield down and fully extended

and he gets closer and the shield like shrinks or w/e (tank armor skirts type deal is what he said) and he gets more aggressive and focused on actually disrupting u in melee

[quaint verge]

[frank night]

[rocky marsh]

what about finese?
not dump stat?

[gray ice]

No

[left iron]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1046913589614747719/1152255403174928414/1139651508892352533.gif

[gray ice]

Finesse affects dmg and swingspeed

Weak spot dmg to be precise

[rocky marsh]

jesus christ 300k dockets (without recycling) to have 1 decent weapon

[meager turret]

I’d really rather a loot die system than clicking “buy” 40 times to get 330- weapons

[rocky marsh]

no way you need 40 times to get 330

or did you mistype and thats supposed to be 330+ meaning more than 330

[meager turret]

I’ve spent 1m+ to get a decent mk15 evis

[rocky marsh]

what is decent

[meager turret]

It’s slight hyperbole but I’m just tired of it

[rocky marsh]

like 75 for importan stats?

75 and above

[gray ice]

I mean I've got 30+ rolls with nothing above 350 at a time before

It can happen

[faint cape]

hadron licking her lips rn

[meager turret]

Something that isn’t 50 or less on one of the important stats

[faint cape]

ready to turn it into a bucket of shit

[rocky marsh]

OI NO JINX

[faint cape]

not jinx

[rocky marsh]

1mil+?

[faint cape]

destiny

[rocky marsh]

no way

[meager turret]

I have

[rocky marsh]

you muhst have terrible luck LOL

i usually get something decent before 300k

[meager turret]

Most other weapons I got it at around 300k-500k but the mk15 evis is just not a hot time for my wallet

Good thing auric maelstroms make me rich

[indigo quartz]

true

mk15 is weird

my best one so far is 70/80/80

dmg/pen/shredder

its the only one i've rolled that 1-taps maulers on body shots

[vast basin]

I got a good mk15 on the second one I rolled

[still mango]

Preferred/BIS ranged weapon for stealth zealot?

[indigo quartz]

depends on your melee

[rocky marsh]

evis 1 tap mauler on bodyshot?

no wonder its meta

[meager turret]

2/3 of my zealot melee inventory is full of grey eviscerators

[indigo quartz]

yeah, and if y ou crit with it, it 1-taps crushers

headshot and body shot. I run flak/carapace on it

[meager turret]

The rest is my actual weapons and load of unused emperor’s gifts

[rocky marsh]

i saw some youtuber rate chain sword higher than the evis tho, not sure why.

[indigo quartz]

no maniac besides a mutie survives a reved light let alone heavy

and its lights can stagger rager

[meager turret]

Because I’m on some hopium that we can scrap for materials one day

[indigo quartz]

normal chain sword cleans up crowds far better

[rocky marsh]

without rev?

[indigo quartz]

does almost as good on specialists/elites and crushers

without rev

mk 15 is great

[meager turret]

I love the mk15

[rocky marsh]

does the light cleave?

[indigo quartz]

yes

but!@

[meager turret]

I just hate the money I spent on it

[indigo quartz]

only 'bad' part about it is that its cleave has a hard 4 target limit

which makes its cleave targets a dead stat

[rocky marsh]

yeah no wonder its meta
i got tired of seeing it used alongside column

[indigo quartz]

since it likes shred

[rocky marsh]

it looks as boring as psword gameplay

ngl.

[indigo quartz]

I suggest a blazing piety build

[rocky marsh]

nah im not touching evis

[indigo quartz]

because then you can use las pistol

[rocky marsh]

im not some hipster but it seems to make the game like too easy

[indigo quartz]

fury of the faithful + las pistol means 2-3 dead crushers if your aim doesn't suck

[meager turret]

It cleaves enough for my zealot charge to refresh constantly

[sharp zodiac]

That's the heavy sword's job for making the game easy

[meager turret]

And boy do I love screaming

[faint cape]

zealot in general makes the game easy

[indigo quartz]

nah thats ogryn

[faint cape]

[rocky marsh]

i played crusher weapon and revolvo
granted revolvo is kinda good but i still don't find the game like easy

ogryn defo easy

[meager turret]

I used the revolver before it was cool

[rocky marsh]

i don't even need to dodge as ogryn

[meager turret]

I just used it to stagger enemies as I close in on redemption range

[rocky marsh]

and tbh i dislike the revving sounds as well

and the shred animation lock

[north sedge]

revolver kinda good?

it's fucked up op

[meager turret]

You can dodge out of shredding now

It has made the chain weapons usable for me

Although I still hard commit sometimes because I’ve gona full unga bunga

[dense field]

Probably because you haven't yet played with a mk15

[indigo quartz]

when you fury of the faithful a plogryn on a headshot for 20k

[rocky marsh]

no bosses are fun to beat imo
i feel ragers main problem is their insane reach (assuming we keep their speed)
try fighting a rager in psk, i haven't seem to out range them

eh last point is kinda subjective

[open pollen]

But see, you can fuck up fighting the bulwark by wasting time fighting the bulwark. It just becomes a spectrum, with "Kill the bulwark(s) before it even knows what's happening" on one end and "Spend ages breaking down the shield(s)" on the other. With the middle being "Get around the shield and kill it as fast as possible"

They are disruptors, if I understand the term, so them taking up time/space is their win condition, instead of dealing direct damage. Both solutions maintain this, the only difference being a hard failstate or a soft one.

[rocky marsh]

kinda OP* :p

[rocky marsh]

i feel in other games, enemy types like disruptors would require a skillshot (e.g. can only shoot arms or something)

but darktide seems to be leaning towards a more casual philosophy

[open pollen]

Well, you could consider the bait and hit a skillshot of sorts. It's just one that can't be performed at a distance.

[rocky marsh]

i think thats why i like kf2 so much, a game i found fun and there is good player expression.
There is alot of stuff for you to get good at, you can infact solo the hardest difficutly with full party damage scaling if you are good enough

but kf2 gets kinda repetitive

[open pollen]

And becomes close to impossible if you have 6 bulwarks all in sync, requiring you to figure something else out (Nades, repositioning, something you might not have control over, etc)

[rocky marsh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzMMUYSHu68
i remember spending hours practicing this lol

kf2 also have reload cancelling tech that you need to do properly on the correct timing

so sad, i want something interesting like darktide but something with skill expression like kf3
DT doesn't need to be "harder" , it just needs more skill expression

[open pollen]

So summarize my thoughts on Bulwarks and Ragers.

Right now, they seem designed to outright prevent certain playstyles. If you like ranged weapons that don't have sheild-cracking capabilities, you're SOL against bulwarks. Likewise, if you prefer low-stagger melee, ragers are your bane. Both force you to play differently or suffer a potentially game-ending failure.

I am personally opposed to this. I think if you like to play a certain way, you should be able to, even if it's non-optimal. The cost of failing to adapt to the optimal solution should be "This becomes harder" not "This becomes impossible". Of course, the line there is blurry since there's a lot more factors at play, but we're talking median case here. For example, you can play your way right now if you have a teammate willing to deal with these threats for you, or otherwise distract them.

[rocky marsh]

i feel thats fine?
because thats why they give you stuff like grenades.
And likewise give you guns about your comment on ragers.

[ember yew]

@open pollenTL;DR They want you to be jack of all trades and your melee must be complemented by your ranged or vice-versa (aka melee horde clear and ranged is anti-elite), otherwise you are in a deep shet

[open pollen]

Aye, it's fine. But it's always going to frustrate some people.

[ember yew]

[open pollen]

I mean, personally? I've never had a problem with bulwarks OR ragers, because the weapons I happen to like using (thammers) deal with them easily enough.

But other folks with different tastes despise them.

They find them annoying to fight, at least.

[opaque island]

petition to retroactively make melk coins actually just foil wrapped chocolate coins and melk just has a sweet tooth

[rocky marsh]

i mean, if you don't want to use the other tools that are specifically for the that kind of enemy in this then i feel its on you

my personal pet peeves are:
Fire damage atm
trapper bugs
poxburster bullshit
flamer shoots relatively fast, and the actual firing has no warning
mutie being a joke

\

[opaque island]

how would they improve muties? just make them tankier?

[rocky marsh]

i feel like for starters, if you are at wall, don't have them just throw you, have them slam and then throw

[open pollen]

Now that is a good question.

[steel agate]

But I wouldn’t get funny rock kill with ragdoll

[violet hornet]

I wouldn't mind seeing the ground pound on grab trigger every time but do half damage

[rocky marsh]

and then you could have things like "purposefully throw you into crowds / out of map" kind of stuff if you want to go one tier higher

[open pollen]

If you really wanted to make them scary, make them prioritize throwing you off ledges. Now THAT would make them downright nightmarish

[violet hornet]

It'd feel more consistent at least

[open pollen]

Ah, we had the same thought

[rocky marsh]

but yes

mutie is too much of a joke atm

[violet hornet]

Mutie tosses you right into a bon mouth

[rocky marsh]

glorp*

[open pollen]

Mutie tossess you into another mutie charge

Hot potato!

[rocky marsh]

i had that happen and i was actually relieved

because there was fire

and you are invuln

iirc

in air

getting thrown

[open pollen]

so, cold potato then

[rocky marsh]

very subjective, i feel the crusher OH dodge timing could be more lenient.

its fine 1v1 but now with 6 crushers

sometimes the back guy just sneaks a random OH that you can't even see

[open pollen]

Muties are an interesting case. If we were talking fundamental redesigns, and not small tweaks, I think having them turn into regular melee enemies after the charge could be interesting. But then they'd just become chargers from L4D but less scary.

[rocky marsh]

anyway, the way youtype right, i feel you are taking the guy's opinions too seriously

[still mango]

Is the Marty Zealot just bad?