but you were on psyker"!!!!!!
#zealot-class
lean lark
royal vortex
this is when the gunners got to spread out and take up awkward positions to deal with
zealot actually has it easier in this situation
royal vortex
because you have much better sustain vs ranged enemies in melee
higher hp, second wind is preferable to psyker toughness regen when dealing with this particular issue, etc
and this is with everyone dead, if you have 3 other people fighting stuff it's way easier
fading vale
smh it's all in your head
timid mortar
Well played.
But alternatively, you could have a Vet with you doing his job.
lean lark
class roles exist
royal vortex
a melee shout vet with say VoC and weapon specialist is a far more melee-centric build
lean lark
the current powercreep makes them not exist
royal vortex
no they never did
ppl blame powercreep for things fundamental to the game since release
lean lark
i dont exactly think the classes were designed the way they were without having roles in mind
royal vortex
having an intent =/= that thing working out in execution
lean lark
and instead were thrown out like "sure fuck it have some stupid shooting guy with melee"
timid mortar
a melee shout vet with say VoC and weapon specialist is a far more melee-centric...
So you're saying Vets should stick to melee and Zellies should learn BB?
crisp plaza
Wtf lol
royal vortex
So you're saying Vets should stick to melee and Zellies should learn BB?
hey, try reading what im saying and comprehending it. that's a bad faith question and you know it
what im saying is you can't rely on someone doing a certain thing because they are a certain class
timid mortar
fair enough
royal vortex
- people are bad and will underperform in pubs often
- since patch 13, each class has 3 subclasses that are related but also wildly different in what they can/can't do and what they will prioritize
lean lark
you cant rely on zealot being the melee guy but they're always the melee guy because its the thing zealot excels at as a class
crisp plaza
Gunners suck to deal with
royal vortex
a gunlugger achlys ogryn with fire bullets will absolutely destroy ranged packs
fading vale
is it nice when vets delete specials and ranged elites, sure, can they do it really well? yes, do I expect vets to do that, no
lean lark
vet excels as a ranged class yet people suck at vet
royal vortex
but a bullgryn taunt guy who uses slab shield push to take aggro on poxwalkers (please don't do this) isn't gonna annihilate ranged units with his gun
lean lark
you can have class roles, but you can't have good players to accomodate those class roles fully
timid mortar
1. people are bad and will underperform in pubs often
2. since patch 13, each cl...
i concede
(issue I chose to hide was, I was carrying a flamer for a penance)
royal vortex
you cant rely on zealot being the melee guy but they're always the melee guy bec...
well i think conceptually you're looking at it the wrong way, because "melee" isn't a role
olive raven
what would you define the subclasses are @royal vortex
royal vortex
well i think conceptually you're looking at it the wrong way, because "melee" is...
"frontliner", "backline ranged shooty guy", etc are
lean lark
well i think conceptually you're looking at it the wrong way, because "melee" is...
yeah im not saying melee is a role
royal vortex
but then u get into like
lean lark
i just said melee as the clearest example
royal vortex
what can melee do as a role
and a stealth knife zealot isn't a frontliner in the way u would expect
frozen ibex
My bleed knife can do everything.
royal vortex
what would you define the subclasses are <@445566734255259648>
uhhh
frozen ibex
It's op. 
royal vortex
i mean in a literal sense the 3 main branches on each tree
lean lark
because stealth knife is a subclass of the main branch it's supposed to be
royal vortex
left/middle/right
timid mortar
"frontliner", "backline ranged shooty guy", etc are
wait.. that sounds .. pedantic?/semantic?
royal vortex
the left side in each class corresponds to the launch class, so left side ogryn is the skullbreaker from pre-13, etc
frozen ibex
Knife is better than heavy sword. 
olive raven
Cuz tbh I see like
frank night
SHOELDRYNGS
royal vortex
wait.. that sounds .. pedantic?/semantic?
well the whole class role discussion kind of revolves around a degree of pedantry, you're trying to define stuff
royal vortex
and i would argue it mostly doesn't exist, particularly in pubs where you can't communicate that stuff effectively
lavish flame
Tbf like weapon spec Vet is still very solid at using ranged to kill specials.
Its just not gonna shooter clear as well.
ember yew
well in terms of support nothing will beat a Vets passive ammo aura
surreal solstice
Classes are social constructs 
royal vortex
Tbf like weapon spec Vet is still very solid at using ranged to kill specials.
...
i don't think any class currently has an issue dealing with specials with their gun tbh
frank night
Dont get them started on auras
royal vortex
the way difficulty works rn every gun has to deal with them for the most part
lavish flame
But yea theres no real class roles. Theres tendencies for some classes to lean some ways
frozen ibex
Classes are social constructs <a:nomnomnom:981624715154169867>
I'm lower middle class it feels pretty bad here.
royal vortex
taunt is less a support ult and more damage
because if ur not running the damage on taunted enemies its pointless
lavish flame
i don't think any class currently has an issue dealing with specials with their ...
Not at all. Hardest frankly is zealot and even then u have laser beam brautos and revolvers
royal vortex
taunt push is otherwise just better
ember yew
Taunt I guess as well?
Did they allow to taunt bosses like in Vermintide?
royal vortex
taunt push is otherwise just better
royal vortex
Not at all. Hardest frankly is zealot and even then u have laser beam brautos an...
yea lol
olive raven
Idk
ember yew
cuz i dont remember this here
olive raven
I don’t touch Ogryn so idk how their shit works fully
lean lark
taunt works on anything
royal vortex
u can taunt a boss with ult, yeah
lean lark
even bosses
royal vortex
actually
olive raven
Except for they shit out damage and have tons of damage reduction
surreal solstice
Dont get them started on auras
There's only one aura, vet ammo regen
Everything else is placebo
frank night
Ur going to get them started u FOOLISH fool
lean lark
yeah
olive raven
Tbh I never really see the benefit of auras cause coherency is so short
lean lark
im not interested in hearing shit rant #53158145 about auras
royal vortex
ember yew
you just take your pocket vet with aura and thats it
royal vortex
if you taunt an un-aggro'd daemonhost
it randomly selects a guy to aggro onto
so u can grief
surreal solstice
Ur going to get them started u FOOLISH fool
I'm trying but it doesn't work 
royal vortex
and taunt works through verticality so you can do it on accident
which is really fucked up
ember yew
it randomly selects a guy to aggro onto
they fixed shroud griefing, but this still exist
south folio
a crime that josho can do discreetly in pubs
timid mortar
https://streamable.com/abr3am
Changing the Subject: Can Demonhosts knock you off your Evis/Chain latching?
royal vortex
**Changing the Subject:** Can Demonhosts knock you off your Evis/Chain latching?
i don't think so? maybe the knockback can if you don't have twbs
hazy kite
aint no way they ACTUALLY made bloodletter on eviscerator apply less stacks
royal vortex
actually no the knockback wouldn't
royal vortex
aint no way they ACTUALLY made bloodletter on eviscerator apply less stacks
it's because you can cleave with the rev attack
hazy kite
i miss my 16 whatever bleeds
olive raven
Yea it wouldn’t interrupt chain stuff
surreal solstice
**Changing the Subject:** Can Demonhosts knock you off your Evis/Chain latching?
Not with twbs I believe
royal vortex
i think the only way you can stop a chain rev is if you get crowd control'd by an enemy or you pop chorus
timid mortar
it's because you can cleave with the rev attack
Yup, I was referring to the special attack..
- Cos Thammers apply the damage intantaneously.
- I was wondering if Evis/Chain would have damage applications inturrupted.
royal vortex
i don't think so
obviously if you went down or got netted or you dodge-cancel the attack, but once it's latched it should stay until the rev is over
surreal solstice
Yup, I was referring to the special attack..
- Cos Thammers apply the damage int...
You can imo if you get knocked up
By pogryn's stomp, for example
olive raven
I think things that send you flying are different
royal vortex
there are things that force you out of any actions, yeah
olive raven
Plogryn, chaos spawn and BoN would be able to
royal vortex
being in the air or pre-patch 13, if you were by a ledge when a mutie went up it
that shit was infuriating
olive raven
A yellow barrel exploding would work similar too
royal vortex
you could get killed because a mutie jumps next to you and then you get shot by a sniper on vent purge or w/e
timid mortar
Plogryn, chaos spawn and BoN would be able to
But not demonhosts?
royal vortex
DHs can't launch you into the air
surreal solstice
Sniper trickshots were something else lol
royal vortex
now they're not supposed to target you while disabled
sometimes bad things happen because enemies aren't told to cancel their current action
olive raven
But not demonhosts?
Daemonhosts don’t have a super high knockback
They have hella damage, corruption and stuns
But not launching you
Basically if you can catch air from the attack, it’ll interrupt
If not, nope
timid mortar
<sigh> Back to the grind: I still got 60 more missions to do.
olive raven
Have fun
royal vortex
😔
godspeed
the best part of p13 wasn't the huge content introduced it was that they actually started making specials more fair
unpushable hounds
the bane of my existence
surreal solstice
Wish they didn't fuck the sound in 14 tho
olive raven
8m pushes are wild
flat marsh
Tbh, I hate it when people activate a DH to show off to kill it. Like thanks, you did it in the middle.of horde so no one could focus DPS, you just sat in a corner with the shield deployed, and now we all have like 10 health since the rest of it is corruption
olive raven
Tbh, I hate it when people activate a DH to show off to kill it. Like thanks, yo...
Tbh usually the only ones doing that are hammer zealots 💀
ember yew
Tbh, I hate it when people activate a DH to show off to kill it. Like thanks, yo...
you only go and oneshot DH there if you are a hammer Zealot, it takes like 3-4 seconds
flat marsh
Wish they didn't fuck the sound in 14 tho
There's a lot of sound events in the game and they start overwriting each other and artifacting
ember yew
and can clear area if you are fighting horde/boss/w/e
royal vortex
Wish they didn't fuck the sound in 14 tho
byproduct of too many enemies with sound cues existing at once
it only started getting really bad when they started cranking up spawn rates
surreal solstice
Somehow channels worked alright in 13
flat marsh
Nope
Was as bad back then
royal vortex
it's also really annoying because it's an issue that changes depending on the map and where you're standing
patch 13 is when it started, basically like the day after it dropped ppl were complaining about it
surreal solstice
Huh
flat marsh
I think they upped spawns to compensate for the power creep from the talent reworks
royal vortex
although they didn't really solve the issue that specials are the only way to kill players, particularly through annoying jank
like most of my damage taken from snipers/bursters is audio bugging out
flat marsh
Eh. In real warfare, force multipliers do way more work than actual infantry
In terms of damage
royal vortex
mostly irrelevant
elites are a huge step back from vt2 because of how the game works
flat marsh
Most deaths in warfare are bombs.ajd artillery
royal vortex
melee elites in particular
flat marsh
There's a lot of issues right now with elites
royal vortex
are just pathetic outside of ragers creating an aoe of "DO NOT WALK HERE"
or having sound bug out
frank night
True add randomised artillery strikes
flat marsh
The krieg experience
trim kindle
murder-kill-kill
royal vortex
like maulers/crushers are complete jokes because they have 1 attack that matters and you can spot-dodge it without moving your model at all
shotgunners also literally exist as enemies that knock you around and nothing else
which is fkin hilarious but also weird
trim kindle
I got knocked down into the abyss by a shotgunner earlier today
flat marsh
The comparison to real Life warfare was mostly to draw a parallel to most kills being from force multipliers but horde/infantry still have their use as a constant threat and being a major pressure
frank night
Pre nerf shotguns too good for this world
royal vortex
elites should be considerably more of a force multiplier than they currently are is how i feel
surreal solstice
Pre nerf shotgunners were plain dumb
flat marsh
Remove the damage reduction after toughness breaks. Embrace chaos
royal vortex
pre-nerf shotgunners are based and i want them back in some form or another
remove their knockback, crank up the damage
getting shot should hurt you, it shouldn't fuck you up by moving you
flat marsh
I really hate the momentum loss when I get shot tbh
royal vortex
it's why TWBS is so fun
flat marsh
TWBS?
flat marsh
Ah gotcha
ember yew
to both melee and ranged
flat marsh
Yeah it's a really good one if I can manage it
ember yew
altho its again sht tooltip text
flat marsh
Doesn't always fit
ember yew
that does not mention ranged
flat marsh
altho its again sht tooltip text
In my Fatshark game? Never.
ember yew
royal vortex
every build i have takes TWBS and since i path through throwing knives im already right there pointswise anyways
flat marsh
Throwing knife chad
royal vortex
throwing knives are really good if u have an answer to elite swarms and bulwarks
flat marsh
I love them because I get to bring flamers and bolters more often
royal vortex
like i run it with crusher/columnus brauto, since crusher has no problems with elite density or bulwarks, and columnus brauto is a bit unreliable at range if you don't have dance of death up
flat marsh
It's also hilarious taking all the sniper kills because your teammates take forever to notice them and then draw a gun
royal vortex
i make it my mission to killsteal vets with hitscan weapons
lean lark
i really dont think elites should be able to get oneshot with like one buff stacked
olive raven
I don’t think I have a single build without TWBS
lean lark
it feels so stupid
flat marsh
There's a lot of issues with elites:
Plasma, trauma, ranged spam, smite, etc
lean lark
they should be oneshottable, but only by very damage-prioritizing builds
elites are glorified damage sponges
that suck at their job
royal vortex
There's a lot of issues with elites:
Plasma, trauma, ranged spam, smite, etc
i think the core issue is how most of them are designed and intersect with baseline game mechanics
flat marsh
Give all elites void shielss
royal vortex
you can't properly dodge-dance a rager in this game
there's no side dodging like in vt2
their reach is too long
it's really annoying
surreal solstice
i really dont think elites should be able to get oneshot with like one buff stac...
I'd agree if elites weren't packed in conga lines 90% of the time
royal vortex
and then on the flip-side maulers/crushers are completely mitigated by having a spacebar regardless of your actual dodge distance
flat marsh
royal vortex
I'd agree if elites weren't packed in conga lines 90% of the time
right, which is why i think the correct solution is tuning down player power globally
and then re-designing elites to varying degrees
surreal solstice
That would make sense
flat marsh
I think every number in the game needs like a 20-50% nerf
royal vortex
the servers don't take the current density very well
which is why you get the rampant audio issues, stuff spawning in your face (also a map issue but still, got worse since p13), etc
flat marsh
I'm fine with the mechani interactions, but the synergizes with all of the talents create a ton of hidden value
royal vortex
well so my thing is like, before the p13 power creep, you still only really got killed by disablers
that's why they made hishock
flat marsh
So there just needs an across the board nerfing
royal vortex
if you got rid of survivalist entirely that'd be good too
ammo is kind of something you think about when you don't have an ammo dispenser on the team
flat marsh
We're entering payday 2 levels of powercreep and power creep mitigation
ember yew
So there just needs an across the board nerfing
That could create a major negative backlash, so they decided just to increase spawnrates by like x5
pearl valve
ammo is kind of something you think about when you don't have an ammo dispenser ...
That will just lead to the third great vet malding and third review bombing
yes please
royal vortex
That will just lead to the third great vet malding and third review bombing
hell yeah
royal vortex
there's the "only buff don't nerf" crowd who are always screaming into the void
flat marsh
I'm constantly fighting over smite nerfs right now
south folio
more kneecaps need to be shot
rigid trellis
where plasma nerf 
flat marsh
there's the "only buff don't nerf" crowd who are always screaming into the void
I just tell them to look at payday 2
pearl valve
^^^
royal vortex
plasma and smite both need a rework more than a strict nerf imo
pearl valve
I love plasma but what the fuck
trim kindle
people who cry about smite being too op clearly are crybabies
flat marsh
where plasma nerf <:staregryn:1022085083844325376>
I have a forum thread on it actually
flat marsh
I want cleave nerfs first
ember yew
payday2 has like 3143414 dlc, lets not look at that
pearl valve
is a bit much
royal vortex
the problem isn't the numbers (in most cases), it's the underlying mechanics being bad
oh absolutely the left click should not cleave like it does
pearl valve
^
royal vortex
it's 50 cleave on uncharged, 100 at full charge
pearl valve
ye
rigid trellis
any good vet with a plasma will make everyone else redundant
royal vortex
but plasma has way too little use-case for the right click rn
flat marsh
any good vet with a plasma will make everyone else redundant
Can confirm
I am that vet and no longer run plasma because it got boring
royal vortex
you should have to charge it for unyielding/carapace damage and for (a reduced) cleave
rigid trellis
ember yew
any good vet with a plasma will make everyone else redundant
plasma imo is the strongest universal weapon
like jack of all trades
olive raven
That will just lead to the third great vet malding and third review bombing
Hey, we all need a comedy show
ember yew
its just deals with everything
royal vortex
what they need to do is separate the attack profiles on charged and uncharged shot for plasma
pearl valve
Hey, we all need a comedy show
that's why I said "yes please"
royal vortex
because rn the charge shot (unless they changed it) and uncharged shot work off the same function with the same adms, it's just the uncharged is an automatic charge-up and fire
surreal solstice
Hey, we all need a comedy show
As long as they dont nerf my revolver
I still remember good old days of playing revolver - evi when they both sucked
flat marsh
I still love how the charged shot doesn't get deadshot
Revolver also needs nerfs
A bit of cleave
flat marsh
Just a little off.the top
royal vortex
part of the design intent behind deadshot is mitigating recoil/sway
flat marsh
I just want the fucking crit increase
flat marsh
Yeah but more crit
flat marsh
Big number make neuron go vroom
royal vortex
if revolver couldn't absolutely fuck ragers like it does rn it would be a lil more bearable
flat marsh
Melee is probably in a decent spot, but a bit overperforming in some areas because of talent interactions (haha stealth hammer)
Because it's not particularly healthy to just delete bosses in 3 seconss
ember yew
Melee is probably in a decent spot, but a bit overperforming in some areas becau...
They are nerfing oneshots in Vermintide 2 now
royal vortex
tbf the vast majority of people aren't doing that
ember yew
maybe they'l look over here after that
flat marsh
I also hate how people just say "yeah but it saved my run so it shouldn't be nerfed"
Like, you should have lost. It's a game. You can lose
Go to a lower difficulty if you think you shouldn't lose
royal vortex
bosses in general are just trivialized for the most part
the cspawn damage nerf was COMPLETELY unwarranted
they shouldve just tuned the grab hitbox
ember yew
grab hitbox sometimes do strange things
flat marsh
Honestly, only the bite from the chaos spawn is something that does something
Flailing and using you as a literal club doesn't do anything?
Like hello? Newton's third law? Equal and opposite reactions?
ember yew
royal vortex
which is hilarious when it happens to someone else
not so much when it happens to me
(it's only occurred like, twice for me iirc)
olive raven
As long as they dont nerf my revolver
I still remember good old days of playing ...
Revolver does need a bit of a nerf
flat marsh
I usually get ready to stagger the spawn if my little pubbies get grabbed
olive raven
I think a slight time increase to surgical is all tbh
surreal solstice
I think a slight time increase to surgical is all tbh
Survival def needs to be nerfed
flat marsh
Save a krak, keep cooldowns up, etc
frank night
U can just walk up to it and it will weirdly insta switch to just swinging them around
surreal solstice
In general
surreal marlin
blades of faith bad?
flat marsh
Survivalist should be removed and ammo should be a bit more common
royal vortex
blades of faith bad?
they're good*
it's just
much more build specific
than the other 2
olive raven
It’s also
frank night
He is false prophet
olive raven
Very “can you aim”
flat marsh
The emotional support vet ammo printing factory is kinda shitty design
royal vortex
you treat them as a weapon that fills a specific gap
if you have a bolter or flame and want quick-swap special killing, it's nice
frank night
Do not listen to cryonic rod colin
royal vortex
but immo nades literally scale with enemy density and murder hordes/mixed hordes
and stuns are stuns
frank night
I see immo nades the most
royal vortex
they have better clutch potential/damage spikes compared to knives
frank night
Mostly used badly or weirdly
royal vortex
but knives are a consistent tool u can use and yea u have to aim
flat marsh
Throwing knives are really fast reactions if you get good with them, and rather than a reactive blitz like fire grenades, and stuns, you're more proactive trying to get rid of a threat before it does its thing
For a sudden elite rush, you should always have a backup plan like bolter or flamer spam
frank night
I would like to see more stuns
flat marsh
No. No more fucking hard CC in this game
frank night
Immo nades get used too much on poxwalkers
flat marsh
I'm already losing my mind over relic, voice of command, and smite
fading vale
fire nades are for elite packs especially with lots of bulwarks
royal vortex
im ngl most relic users pop that shit on 2 bruisers after 2 ppl have died when the intensity is super lower
right at the end you can see this dude pop it when theres legitimately 2 bruisers on the screen and thats it
frank night
Altho bad player is bad is not reflective of game design
frank night
Neuron activation
royal vortex
but it's thankfully on a cooldown (and i don't see many blazing piety users praise the LORD)
flat marsh
pops relic when last alive
You couldn't have fucking done this before we went down instead of you just awkwardly staring at our 3 bodies bleeding out?
royal vortex
*pops relic when last alive*
You couldn't have fucking done this before we went ...
lmao
frank night
They were saving it
ember yew
https://streamable.com/voz5gf
emergency rescue service vid
frank night
The saving period is negotiable
olive raven
Mostly used badly or weirdly
Tbh finding the “perfect” time is hard
I use them primarily for revives or making a chokepoint fire
royal vortex
emergency rescue service vid
frank night
U just send shit and then practice till u get the instinct
royal vortex
i was running around trying to stop the toddlers from drinking the chemicals under the sink
olive raven
U just send shit and then practice till u get the instinct
oh ya
royal vortex
or sticking forks in the outlet
frank night
They will not repeat his mistakes
olive raven
I’ve found like just, choke points or needing to clear a huge horde
Is the usual practice
Sometimes the usage is weird but
Funny fire
flat marsh
i was running around trying to stop the toddlers from drinking the chemicals und...
If it weren't for those annoying additives, anti freeze is actually a type of sugar and is sweet
frank night
Pls do not sommelier review the anti freeze
flat marsh
Sugar is a natural anti freeze and synthetic versions designed for the job of course do it better
And that's how ice cream works
olive raven
Anti freeze tastes pretty good
flat marsh
Ice crystal suppression with fat and sugar
olive raven
Same as gasoline
flat marsh
It tastes like how it smells
olive raven
tastes... good
dumb teen activities
royal vortex
https://streamable.com/6a5a77 so anyways
olive raven
Nothing bad
olive raven
Yea hitting dogs out the air is fun
flat marsh
You mean pushing a dog?
royal vortex
it was better to try to hit it out of the air
olive raven
No
royal vortex
than pushing it
olive raven
Hit the dog
flat marsh
I still push dogs and doing a side dodge
royal vortex
less likely for it to ignore the attack
olive raven
I still push dogs and doing a side dodge
This is the best case now
royal vortex
yea lol the muscle memory is still there
olive raven
Prior it was ehhh
royal vortex
i use all available options because im used to them deciding to ignore 1 or more of the mitigation methods that should work
flat marsh
Depends on the situation. I just dodge spam a lot more now, and it usually works
flat marsh
That or break LoS and hit them when they go around a corner
And light spam the little shit down
royal vortex
throwing knife headshots on moving dogs are always nice
flat marsh
Tbh, my preferred method is to break LoS and use corners/cover
royal vortex
i mostly do LoS breaking for trappers nowadays
dogs i feel more confident in just killing normally
flat marsh
Trappers just aren't dodgable in hugging distance
royal vortex
you can stagger em way easier
flat marsh
fires anyway while you're hitting them
olive raven
I’m confident killing dogs cuz heavy sword OP
surreal marlin
is grenade better than blades?
olive raven
also it’s funny bullying a crusher with a revolver 💀
flat marsh
is grenade better than blades?
Where the hell did you go when we explained our opinions to you like 5 minutes ago
royal vortex
the one thing they can't do is shoot you through something they can't see (at least until they start the windup, then sometimes they can shoot through walls if their gun clips through it)
flat marsh
How the fuck can a trapper get you through a fence
The fence holes are smaller than the net
fading vale
yes grenades are more or less just better outside of if you run something like flamer
flat marsh
This isn't how it works
fading vale
it's cause the net is literally a pixel more or less
surreal marlin
when would knives be useful?
royal vortex
flat marsh
When you have an elite or special you really want to kill that isn't in melee distance and isn't armoured
flat marsh
when would knives be useful?
surreal marlin
is imn better?
fading vale
https://discord.com/channels/727074276724965407/1046913589614747719/118952510886...
that's a bit copium, guns are gonna do a better job 90% of the time
unless you are running slow ranged
royal vortex
"better job" is overselling it in a lot of cases. they will do the same exact thing (up to a certain point depending on enemy density) sufficiently outside of penning multiple elites with a revolver
surreal marlin
is imno nade better than stun?
fading vale
they are both good
royal vortex
depends on build more than anything. immos are bad with a flamer, pair nicely with crusher
fading vale
"better job" is overselling it in a lot of cases. they will do the same exact th...
idk, maybe I'm just bad or cause I run shotguns primarily but throwing knives always feel like ass, like yeah is it cool or fun when you land a cool knife sure
royal vortex
idk, maybe I'm just bad or cause I run shotguns primarily but throwing knives al...
oh shotgun is a really bad pairing with them
up there with revolver
dense field
is imno nade better than stun?
Stun is better when you want something stopped RIGHT NOW
Immolation is better when you just want enemies dead and don't care about the time too much
fading vale
is it that consistent, no
royal vortex
but part of it is definitely how practiced you are with them
ive put in quite a few levels (though nothing crazy) running knives and im definitely getting more value than when i first started out
they're really good for low to mid densities of specials or elites you want to kill at a distance, esp while closing in
and they are certainly more niche in application, which is why i put a big asterisk when saying i like them because you have to run a loadout where they are useful
fading vale
I feel like even with a brauto I wouldn't run them
or a laspistol
probably just flamer
rapid trail
eyy, melk sells thrust 4
royal vortex
i hate shooting flamers with a laspistol, with brauto it takes pressure off your ammo consumption
(mostly matters if you don't have a surv vet ofc)
olive raven
they're really good for low to mid densities of specials or elites you want to k...
It’s also really nice to open a fight against a rager pack by taking two down in one shot
fading vale
what is the cleave of a throwing knife, I was pretty sure it's not enough to cleave a rager
royal vortex
there's also a case you can make for when you don't have dance of death procs but that's getting kinda into copium territory
it cleaves 1 poxwalker or 1 groaner
won't cleave a bruiser
olive raven
what is the cleave of a throwing knife, I was pretty sure it's not enough to cle...
Sorrry I should amend the statement
Throw two knives for two ragers
royal vortex
i think if you have deathspitter up
olive raven
Very satisfying
royal vortex
it can cleave more though probs not a bruiser still
fading vale
I kind of don't like using IAG out to 50m+
olive raven
True
royal vortex
throwing knives also have a little bit of value for covering in-between reloads
it's not huge for brauto, but every now and then it does something for me
olive raven
I also want to experiment with a bolter & flamer a bit
olive raven
throwing knives also have a little bit of value for covering in-between reloads
It’s clutch on revolver reloads
royal vortex
im obvs not gonna say theyre by any means the best blitz or anything but i feel like people shit on them a lil too much
fading vale
idk I just feel like if I'm solo I would never want knives
and I kinda plan to be solo if I'm in pubs
royal vortex
immo nades for being alone are probs the best way to go
olive raven
They definitely are harder to solo with
royal vortex
but it also kind of depends on what sorta solo we're talking about
because there's clutches where it's mostly killing specials because u had to backtrack, and then there's the kind where u have to make forward progress through adds
and these are v different things to have to do
and immo nades in the first type aren't nearly as useful
fading vale
forward progress is my main concern for solos
royal vortex
yea, immo nades are stupidly good for that
i find a lot of clutches i deal with are ppl getting overwhelmed and i have to back up to survive anyways
olive raven
Tbh with forward pushes I just spam chastise and run like a little bitch
royal vortex
and this means (depending on map) im just killing the adds they pulled, + a special wave or a horde, then getting em up
where throwing knives can actually have some value
fading vale
to be fair I also run hammer which isn't a crusher hsword or caxe
royal vortex
yea
crusher eats melee elites for breakfast
in a way that is considerably more bearable for game health than hsword/caxe but still
sour sierra
Iirc throwing knifes get affected by uncanny strike, the same way hand cannon affected melee
sour sierra
U can halfshot a crusher with full stacks
royal vortex
quite a few blessing interactions
fading vale
and surgical
royal vortex
royal vortex
Tbh with forward pushes I just spam chastise and run like a little bitch
i find this can go badly really quick if u pull stuff
and u get a guy up
and he does nothing
frank night
Think back
royal vortex
do not say that
frank night
Think mark think
royal vortex
fuck u
https://streamable.com/4bjztf @frank night is this what u refer to
vile one
surreal marlin
can u get a better ccrsshair fr the revollver??
royal vortex
the crosshair remap mod if you're on pc
frank night
The phone may be exploding again
royal vortex
crosshair has no bearing on actual weapon accuracy but u can set it to be a dot or cross yea
lean lark
https://streamable.com/4bjztf <@182901095075414016> is this what u refer to
you just died to those 9 gunners
smh
royal vortex
you just died to those 9 gunners
that guy conceded his point so i wont make fun of it
royal vortex
NOT HAPPENING
mankar has left me to burn in fire multiple times because he gets the net to 90% and then it just auto-drops and he thought i got up
lean lark
i just enjoy being ana ss
olive raven
mankar has left me to burn in fire multiple times because he gets the net to 90%...
I’ve gotten the bar
Fully up
The guy starts going up
I release thinking it’s done
Nope.
And now there’s a chaos spawn and horde on me
royal vortex
god bless fatshark
old wave
guys what the world happened to all the wound curios
ive checked at least 20 curios in the shop
none of them are wound
whart the living world
olive raven
It’s a sign to use the better keystone, momentum
surreal solstice
That's a weird way to say piety
fiery ingot
should i buy this?
what are the best blessings for knife? or are they almost on the same level?
surreal solstice
Use throwing knifes then
fiery ingot
you cant punch with throwing knives tho
fiery ingot
mercy killer seemed good. it has big number
fiery ingot
precog? the one that buffs something for 2s when you dodge?
hushed agate
What is heavy sword alt good for?
olive raven
precog? the one that buffs something for 2s when you dodge?
Yes
olive raven
What is heavy sword alt good for?
The special attack? Staggering.
polar nexus
What is heavy sword alt good for?
The special? Armored target.
hushed agate
Like flak or carapace
olive raven
Usually used against ragers + armored targets on a Special -> H1 loop
Yes
Exactly
Typically only
Maulers, Crushers or Ragers
fiery ingot
Yes
i was told that was trash exactly because it lasts only 2s so it would not always be as consistent
olive raven
Whoever told you that
Is smoking something
Precog has nutty buffs to something that is already nutty
fiery ingot
good to know
ty
also
is haymaker actually good for the new knife?
not that ill be looking forward to spam heavies on a knife but
just curious
gilded crest
what does zealot do better than veteran?
gilded crest
can veterans also use revolvers? or only zealot?
hushed agate
Every class but ogryn can use the revolvers
surreal marlin
iis ogron good??
frozen glen
prime moss
My new crusher, never used this weapon before so wondering how good my kindred think it is
dense field
My new crusher, never used this weapon before so wondering how good my kindred t...
It basically has 0 things you want it to have aside from raw stats
keen silo
brutal momentum and maniac?
or just brutal momentum?
prime moss
It basically has 0 things you want it to have aside from raw stats
perfect gift from hadron then
dense field
But crushers don't need a lot. A skullcrusher blessing and maybe a damage perk is enough
dense field
brutal momentum and maniac?
or just brutal momentum?
BM+maniacs
fiery ingot
https://tenor.com/view/vaas-farcry3-hello-insanity-chris-gif-13181187
wtf is this lol
exotic portal
wtf is this lol
y'kno?
fiery ingot
don'no
fiery ingot
unless you count darktide as fps 
keen silo
whats the difference between old and new eviscerator?
sullen grotto
How tanky can you make a zealot?
As a former ogryn main I feel squishy and want faith to be my new shield
olive raven
You can make zealot very tanky
south folio
tangy
olive raven
Personal I usually do Second Wind + Good Balance + Holy Revenant + TWBS and I never really go down
Unless I do some real stupid shit
sullen grotto
Personal I usually do Second Wind + Good Balance + Holy Revenant + TWBS and I ne...
And what would you use on curios?
tough plover
And what would you use on curios?
I go full health on almost every class and spec but +3 stamina isnt bad to have 1 and wounds are used with martyrdom
lean lark
i never lose health in any combat situation on my zealot
the only way i can lose health on my zealot build is through sniper shots and bursters
or getting netted
i can confidently say zealot is insanely tanky
sullen grotto
i never lose health in any combat situation on my zealot
Let mee guess, you're good at dodging?
lean lark
almost comparable to ogryn levels, but thats a massive stretch
olive raven
And what would you use on curios?
3x toughness
tough plover
Full health curios help with exactly that same with surviving mauler and crusher packs and getting hit by 1 of their punches
lean lark
Let mee guess, you're good at dodging?
toughness stacking + second wind + ewew + twbs and also knowing how to dodge
olive raven
Full health curios help with exactly that same with surviving mauler and crusher...
do not do this
Stacking more than 1 HP is counter intuitive a human character
lean lark
you can survive mauler and crusher overheads on zealot without needing martyr fte or max hp stacking
olive raven
Having 2-3 toughness curios allows you to take like 5 hits before getting significant chip damage
Alongside the toughness regen of second wind, etc, you will always have high enough toughness
Throw in the damage reduction and yea
Pretty beefy
tough plover
Having 2-3 toughness curios allows you to take like 5 hits before getting signif...
If you playing in auric the chip damage is noticable after the second hit already
olive raven
If you playing in auric the chip damage is noticable after the second hit alread...
It isn’t lol
I take 1-2 HP chip damage after five hits
212 toughness, 231HP
it’s just better
It’s the general consensus that toughness > HP
tough plover
Only thing toughness helps with is shooting units
ember yew
212 toughness, 231HP
if you add something facerolling like momentum (weapon) then it becomes even more hilarious
tough plover
It’s the general consensus that toughness > HP
Never have I seen any good players take toughness
tough plover
Players like ChocoB always run health or some memes
olive raven
Ancient
never rely on youtubers
Dude I can list a solid
Twenty mfs
Who run toughness
And carry auric mael’s
tough plover
Dude I can list a solid
You can list whatever you want but toughness is just flatout worse for good player
olive raven
Has to be trolling
lean lark
it is not flat out worse for good players
counterpoint; how is health better for good players?
or stamina or wounds for that matter
olive raven
HP is something that doesn’t yknow… regen. While toughness can.
tough plover
counterpoint; how is health better for good players?
Toughness helps of you consistently make mistakes health helps if you fuck up once in a big way like getting hit by sniper or chrusher etc
lean lark
a good player doesnt fuck up enough to take health damage
because they have toughness
which safeguards their health
olive raven
(Also toughness allows you to tank snipers and maulers)
tough plover
Sometimes you just get fucked nobody is flawless
lean lark
a good player uses toughness as a resource to interact with enemy groups with more confidence and less worrying
tough plover
(Also toughness allows you to tank snipers and maulers)
You need voc to tank snipers
lean lark
health on the other hand is not a resource you can use to interact enemy groups
lean lark
you used to be able to have health be your safeguard
but that got changed when hr got nrefed
olive raven
I dont drop down below 1 wound from a sniper shot
lean lark
(rest in peace never forget)
tough plover
I dont drop down below 1 wound from a sniper shot
If sniper goes 1 point over your toughness with its shot it does the full health damage
olive raven
Yes thank you for explaining how toughness works
Sniper shots will always take your toughness out
That’s what they do
I have a 50% damage reduction up usually
tough plover
Yes thank you for explaining how toughness works
So toughness doesn othing to snipershot unless it tanks it completely
olive raven
So a sniper shot doesn’t wipe my HP at all 💀
Mate
Toughness is your friend
You get HP from having 3x HP perks
200+ HP is plenty
sullen grotto
How important is toughness damage reduction?
sullen grotto
Really? I thought it would be a bigger deal
lean lark
tdr is nice overall
olive raven
Can’t remember if martyr is TDR tho
lean lark
yes
ember yew
olive raven
Not usually the sole focus of a build
olive raven
Thank you
ember yew
you can stack TDR to disgusting values
olive raven
Like hell even running 3x wounds for Marty
ember yew
im not sure if thats needed tho
olive raven
You’ll have
Fuck tons of TDR
making you effective toughness insane
My general effective toughness is somewhere in the uh
300-400 range
Due to damage reduction
On a non-momentum build
ember yew
olive raven
Probably low 300’s
ember yew
so
sullen grotto
Does regular damage reduction stack with TDR?
olive raven
I believe regular damage reduction does
That’s why I love good balance
Such a good synergy with second wind
Regain 15% of toughness and 25% damage reduction I think
So that’s sorta fuckin nutty
Toughness is king basically
sullen grotto
How far can regular damage reduction be stacked?
olive raven
Uh I’d have to look at the tree and check
Regular toughness reduction is enough most of the time
Cause if your toughness is broken, press F.
fading vale
most DR and TDR stacks multiplicatively
the minor TDR nodes are additive
everything else is multiplicative
DR and TDR should be multiplicative with eachother too
peak grove
What do y’all think is the strongest class in the game when optimized? To me it looks like they’re all fairly close but Zealot and Psyker have a slight edge.
fading vale
ogryn right now cause they are basically invincible for free
ebon granite
Ogryn
fading vale
zealot is next most survivable and pretty strong
psyker and vet can also be quite good but you need to be a bit better to live
vet can output pretty crazy damage though but most people aren't capable of it
desert yarrow
Is it bad that I only play in Auric ?
olive raven
Ogryn is brain dead strong
olive raven
Is it bad that I only play in Auric ?
No
Ogryn also will like
Not get nerfed
Cause the playtesters love Ogryn so fuckin much
fading vale
there's like 5 ogryn mains that are playtesters lol
and they don't really play other classes afaik
fading vale
somehow either didn't notice the broken DR or the gunlugger stuff, or fatshark just ignored it, but it's not really up to the playtesters
fiery ingot
literally a few messages above
ember yew
i love how ever contraditory this discord is
ogryn is def the strongest atm
people are just not bothered to check and ride the reddit train
or something
desert yarrow
You can really just tell that they love the Orgyn but at the same time why did they nerf the melee attacks on the nade Gauntlet ?
sullen grotto
Darktide has playtesters?
inner crane
i love how ever contraditory this discord is
Expecting a hive mind and blames the entire server when not a hive mind. 
desert yarrow
Darktide has playtesters?
Now that you mention it...
fading vale
well they buffed the hell out of the gauntlet melee and it was kinda broken
and then they nerfed it back down a bit
desert yarrow
well they buffed the hell out of the gauntlet melee and it was kinda broken
Yeah I was there, killing crushers was fun
fading vale
there are only a handful of public playtesters that really only test when fatshark wants them to afaik, but I don't know all the details
fiery ingot
Expecting a hive mind and blames the entire server when not a hive mind. <:clown...
id expect at least a major consent. i've often made lots of questions such as is it good or is it bad here and got completely contraditory answers
olive raven
This is just a horrendous take
fading vale
just find the people that know what they are talking about which is usually in this chat, granted it's gotten a bit watered down after all the new players
there are a few in psyker and ogryn chat that know their stuff too
vet chat is a wash
fiery ingot
id expect at least a major consent. i've often made lots of questions such as i...
i've been told that precog is a complete meme blessing on knife and leiding told me quite the opposite
fading vale
precog is very good
fiery ingot
id expect opinions, but not mathematically wrong answers being said so confidently lol
surreal solstice
Vet chat was always a meme
olive raven
just find the people that know what they are talking about which is usually in t...
(Also after a lot burn out from explaining things 500 times to very stubborn people)
sullen grotto
What does precog do again?
fading vale
60% finesse on successful dodge
desert yarrow
I just hope that they dont nerf the zealot and Veteran right now
quaint verge
(Also after a lot burn out from explaining things 500 times to very stubborn peo...
Contra? 💀
olive raven
Which is nutty on finesse weapons
ember yew
I just hope that they dont nerf the zealot and Veteran right now
they could nerf crit CDR
olive raven
they could nerf crit CDR
This would be fair
fading vale
I imagine they nerf marty survivability and crit CDR
desert yarrow
they could nerf crit CDR
They could since you can be in stealth every 4 sec
ember yew
i dont see any other possible nerfs apart from also nerfing boss oneshots with shroud/thammer
since they are doing these nerfs in vermintide
fading vale
at least you are kind of gimping yourself when you run shroud with hammer
in terms of general performance
surreal solstice
Wonder if they ever do fix ult buffs for chain weapons
But then again, that would require effort
fading vale
bosses just kind of need to be something more
fading vale
every class except psyker can just delete monstrosities
lean lark
- it gets killed instantly
- it gets killed a bit slowly
open echo
yay
olive raven
precog is very good
And here is why Precog is good.
First set of numbers is without Precog, second is with
As you can see
It’s a big difference
200-300 for ragers
And nearly 1k for muties
surreal solstice
1. it gets killed instantly
2. it gets killed a bit slowly
- Horde that spawn with boss kill the squad
olive raven
And here is why Precog is good.
First set of numbers is without Precog, second ...
@fiery ingot don’t think I ever showed why so here
fiery ingot
<@229217332331937792> don’t think I ever showed why so here
oh i believe in you
lean lark
you have to be a very new player or using very bad weapons to die to a horde and a boss
fiery ingot
im just explaining to the guy trying to mock me
fading vale
the only threat of bosses is when there are also a billion elites and specials
olive raven
im just explaining to the guy trying to mock me
Huh
surreal solstice
you have to be a very new player or using very bad weapons to die to a horde and...
Do even pub bro
lean lark
yeah
olive raven
If you csnt solo a boss, that’s a sign that improvement is to be had
fading vale
or you get stuck in a bad/tight area
lean lark
most people try to run specific builds that focus on one aspect
which is fine in my opinion
fiery ingot
Huh
the reason why i brought the precog topic back up is because i was explaining my point to someone who mocked my take as to how contraditory answers i got
lean lark
but with the current power the players have
being an allrounder is insanely more efficient
surreal solstice
Always have been, imo
sullen grotto
What would be a good allaround zealot?
lean lark
the best kind of build is one that can tackle any threat in any situation
fading vale
the reason why i brought the precog topic back up is because i was explaining my...
the general rule of thumb is that almost all info from youtube and reddit is either wrong or partially wrong
lean lark
an example that comes to mind is
crucis thammer with flamer and throwing knives
fading vale
and then in discord you have to find the people that post consistently
and know how the game works
lean lark
you have crucis for armored enemies and bosses, flamer for other elites and hordes, throwing knives for specials/long range elites
fiery ingot
the general rule of thumb is that almost all info from youtube and reddit is eit...
and its pretty hard to get the right answers even when the game itself doesnt help you at all too
fading vale
yeah the game itself is misleading in many ways
fiery ingot
like when i started the game i used to think that 10% crit damage was huge
olive raven
What would be a good allaround zealot?
Heavy sword.
fading vale
What would be a good allaround zealot?
what kind of melee do you want to use
fiery ingot
that was not so long ago
surreal solstice
What would be a good allaround zealot?
Heavy sword + bolter
lean lark
this is more correct
lean lark
hsword bolter is a perfect match
sullen grotto
what kind of melee do you want to use
I like evicorater
olive raven
Like a fucking w
lean lark
the blitz is whatever you want
olive raven
Weirdo
fading vale
hsword and caxe are the easy mode strong melees
then you have crusher, hammer, evis, chainsword, claw
surreal solstice
Caxes were stupidly good for a long time
fading vale
knife exists too but eh, it's not that easy to do well with
lean lark
they still are
fading vale
Rashad is stupid OP now, more so cause new BM
fiery ingot
right now, is tactical axes worth investing into? if not, why?
lean lark
i hope caxe and hsword get the guillotine
sullen grotto
hsword bolter is a perfect match
Is bolter good these days?
lean lark
if hsword becomes a pure antiflesh and making it have next to zero armored enemy damage it'd be perfect
fading vale
right now, is tactical axes worth investing into? if not, why?
not really cause taxe doesn't do anything better or as well as than any other weapon
lean lark
Is bolter good these days?
yes
surreal solstice
Rashad is stupid OP now, more so cause new BM
Wasn't old bromentum even more op
lean lark
bolter is still a very very good ranged
olive raven
if hsword becomes a pure antiflesh and making it have next to zero armored enemy...
Horrifying but yes
lean lark
but requires more skill to make use of it
surreal solstice
Like downright broken
fading vale
Wasn't old bromentum even more op
yesnt, new BM allows you to kill 4 things per swing
quaint verge
Wasn't old bromentum even more op
New BM gives Weakspot DMG bonus. So yea
surreal solstice
fading vale
old BM just staggered literally everything
lean lark
15% weakspot bonus is actually a kinda beefy buff on certain weapons
fading vale
and did some horde damage
quaint verge
And Rashad has finesse stats that benefited alot from bm
fading vale
I like evicorater
chastise martydom build is quite good and well rounded
lean lark
the weakspot has roughly like a 600 dmg bonus or higher, the 15% weakspot gives it an extra 90 dmg
which is shockingly high for a weakspot dmg buff
quaint verge
Shockingly high for FS buff* 
surreal solstice
yesnt, new BM allows you to kill 4 things *per swing*
Did they do something with cleave dmg?
fiery ingot
whats the difference between hsword and dclaw? aside from move set
they seem to deal with the same type of enemies
south folio
brutal momentum's decription is just not actually descriptive of what it actually does
lean lark
hsword oneshots every elite -maulers crushers and flak ragers
surreal solstice
whats the difference between hsword and dclaw? aside from move set
Blessings and flak dmg
lean lark
and gets bm
fading vale
Did they do something with cleave dmg?
so the way BM actually works, if you kill the 1st target you do primary damage to the next target, up to 4 targets
surreal solstice
Good Lord, WTF
lean lark
youcan oneshot flak ragers on hsword too but you need to chastise
same with maulers (requires a heavy quantity of buffs) and crushers (max amount of buffs you can)
fiery ingot
interesting
fading vale
how tf
hsword 6 or 9 with headtaker and deathblow and flak/maniac
and you run the appropriate melee buffs in the tree
lean lark
hsword6 has the highest heavy damage out of the other hswords
surreal solstice
No one likes VII
fiery ingot
and what is the combo to achieve such a thing?
sour sierra
Knife is objectively the best melee if u are a plasteel liberator
lean lark
but is harder to use
fading vale
Good Lord, WTF <:KEKW_ogryn:1022077188322906163>
yeah this is why new ogryn shovel can 1 shot 4 crushers in a single swing
lean lark
and what is the combo to achieve such a thing?
deathblow+ht +maniac and flak perk with first target and dmg stats above 74%
i havent bothered to check current breakpoints because there was a rager nerf which throws off the specifics by a tiny bit
old bp was 76% dmg 80% first target or 80% dmg 75% first target
now its probably -4% from each
fiery ingot
so i assume building a heavy sword is very expensive then?
lean lark
nah
quaint verge
Only if you are really unlucky
lean lark
for what you miss in stats you make up with buffs from zealot tree
momentum, distain, sustained blows or whatever it wa
s
backstabber
martyr
fading vale
you want disdain, duellist, sustained, and marty or momentum keystones
fading vale
I mean it's probably workable just not optimal
lean lark
^
you can run it if you wish until you get an optimal one
this is what ive been using
surreal solstice
Btw does zealot have means to reliably stagger bonbon?
lean lark
no
fiery ingot
lmao what is that monstruosity
lean lark
only holy relic
fiery ingot
that looks like a monster hunter weapon
fading vale
also hsword 6 and 7 have a hidden stat that is 4x cleave to flak
fiery ingot
how important are cleave damage and cleave targets?
fading vale
or rather flak is 0.25 hitmass for hsword 6 and 7
fading vale
cleave damage also effects primary damage
fiery ingot
and what would be the difference between 9 and 6?
fading vale
and light + H2 combo for horizontals
fiery ingot
oh yeah you can reset its combo with special atk yeah?
lean lark
yes
while the 6 is only strikedown horizontals
which require some mouse movemen to make best use of it with deathblow
if you want to know the difference in terms of horde and elite ttk
here
fiery ingot
thamk much
lean lark
hsword9 and hsword6 have a roughly 3s difference in horde clear
with 9 being the best at hordeclear
and the 6 being the best at elite kills with a whopping 7s elite ttk difference if i remember correctly
and being a bit harder to use
you sacrifice horde ttk for marginally better elite ttk
which all boils down to playstyle if anything
fading vale
hordes are really never the issue though so
fiery ingot
yeah i reckon the heavy swing for horde clearing will be already a prog of sorts, so ill just stick with the easier one for now. until i get gud at it with the timing and all, maybe i can give a go for 6
is this dmg too low?
fading vale
that's probably fine to use
you just need headtaker + deathblow/rampage
rampage also works just not as good
fiery ingot
lean lark
is this dmg too low?
nah its fine
fading vale
I'd honestly just upgrade the first one you posted if you are running low on ordos
fading vale
that's plenty good
lean lark
yeah that works
unyielding isnt bad as it lets you reach 2shot bps on bulwarks and reapers
fiery ingot
it was originally with perfect strike and infested dmg
fading vale
I think you might miss out on maniac rager 1 shot
fiery ingot
aight
time to take this beauty to a walk at the psychiatrist
ty for the help 
wait what keystone should i use this with? piety?
lean lark
momentum or martyr
i much prefer momentum over martyr since it has the bonus of having swift certainty on the way to momentum which lets you diagonal dodgeslide and run towards gunners all the time
so you take zero ranged dmg while going towards them if you dont have chastise up
it takes a while to get used to