veteran-class

[tidal fox]

but in lower difficulties it loses the effectiveness ig

[tidal fox]

veteran confirmed racist

[snow sonnet]

Could i just dump stat ammo on plasma gun if im not using it that much?

[gentle lake]

lmfao.

[tall torrent]

Wouldn’t recommend

[snow sonnet]

Doesn't veteran already generate ammo?

[austere wedge]

yeah but its dependant on your max ammo

and it has a cooldown

so if u have to use a bunch of ammo inbetween the 5s youre slowly gonna get lower and lower

[snow sonnet]

im literally just not into guns as much so i dont think ill ever use the whole mag

and like the dump stat is in a weird spot?

[austere wedge]

it is but its probably best to just dump heat and have slightly lower dps

imo

[tall torrent]

Yes, there’s a reason for that and I wrote it in the guide

[austere wedge]

wait are u kuli

or are u the other guide guy

[snow sonnet]

well i hope i can get that dump stat cause isn't that rarer to hit?

[snow sonnet]

i hate doing this so

its probably gonna be a take whatever i can tolerate

[tall torrent]

Other

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

Well idk which “other” ur talking about

[austere wedge]

me neither

[gentle lake]

vet = bad class

this is known

[tall torrent]

Vet top 3 best class

[gentle lake]

vet bad

zealot better

[tall torrent]

Maybe in another lifetime

[gentle lake]

dis life time

if vet was good he'd use crusher

yet he doesnt

curious

https://tenor.com/view/ben-shapiro-walking-gif-21499133

[snow sonnet]

is there anyway you can upgrade weapons to green in mass?

[gentle lake]

to level up?

[snow sonnet]

yeah

[gentle lake]

with mods

much easier

[snow sonnet]

yeah i dread doing it this way

[gentle lake]

hold on

yeah look up quickleveling on nexus

[snow sonnet]

thanks i found it

[gentle lake]

np

you know how to mod dt right

[snow sonnet]

like id like to discard them but my money has to be put to good use

yeah i have some mods already

[gentle lake]

great best o luck

[austere wedge]

i like vet just for field improv ngl

[drowsy perch]

is this an insane build or smth

tbh it works well

my melee is a main i kinda just spam fire

[slender elm]

it mid

because ilas doesnt stagger for shit

[drowsy perch]

its really good at stopping dogs and trappers

which is good enough imo

[slender elm]

dogs get staggered by everything...

[drowsy perch]

(i could just oneshot them with revolver but)

[drowsy perch]

i think only on head?

ive hit body shots and not staggered

atleast with other guns

[slender elm]

if they're biting

[calm shard]

GOOD

sick of shooting a fuckin' gunner and he starts breaking it down then I can't hit his ass

[slender elm]

still happens if you shoot a different gunner beside him

*kill

which annoys me greatly

[gentle lake]

hhm

opinion on

infantry lasgun

last time I used it

it was really stinky

I got it from ainz dn build

and from there I learned Ainz likes CBT

[slender elm]

its very mid

better options are las pistol for comfy headshot spam

and helbore for armor pierce

[gentle lake]

i think im gonna try usin it later

[snow sonnet]

for veteran's sniper build is there an alternative weapon

[gentle lake]

infantry lasgun from what it feels like

[snow sonnet]

aiming for so long and charging is so bad in this

[drowsy perch]

revolver is by far

the best sniper vet has

crusher? one shot it mate

running crit build revolver and vet + ranged talents

[snow sonnet]

i want to do the range stuff on veteran so i really just need something that is generally good

[calm shard]

https://fximgur.com/a/jhpdn9y

[drowsy perch]

recon las is decent if you just want ranged

[snow sonnet]

the sniper build with the helbore is like really demanding of a perfect team

[drowsy perch]

infantry las can also be good as a decent ranged

[austere mica]

Inflas is not a good recommendation

You kinda need to juice it for results

[drowsy perch]

revolver is the best sniper cause its low mag (i reccommend the clip size talen) but amazing damage

[drowsy perch]

depends on what ur doing

[calm shard]

if you want to use inflas save yourself the effort and just use laspistol

[austere mica]

Agri combat shotgun is a nice higher mag consistent precision weapon

[gentle lake]

No I don't....

[drowsy perch]

i run mk7 stagger blessings on inflas and its pretty nice

[calm shard]

effectively the same gun with better stats

[drowsy perch]

this is my silly stagger gun

damage isnt bad either

tho due to the recoil im rarely hitting head

hence both armor perks

[latent star]

Use the fastest version (MKV), put weight of fire on it, talent for damage and you will fire very, very quickly and kill many, many things.

[snow sonnet]

I mean i kind of want to use the helbore but with the lack of covering from my team id rather utilize something quick that also doesn't require so much precision

[drowsy perch]

vet doesnt need to be covering fire

[gentle lake]

kinda need to look after yourself

[drowsy perch]

each class has multiple playstyles

if your entire thing is oneshotting elites/specials

your team wont care about no covering

[gentle lake]

which is why ya have a melee to wack motherfuckers harassing ya

:3

[snow sonnet]

well typically enemies run past and go for me when im in the backline

[drowsy perch]

true

if you just want a good horde clear i recommend devil claw

[gentle lake]

DCLAW MAXXING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drowsy perch]

this is what i use on my revolver vet

[snow sonnet]

uh i think i do need to focus elites for that penance tho

[drowsy perch]

(i know i use both unarmored perks dont @ me)

[gentle lake]

Do you really need that much cleave dawg.

[drowsy perch]

yes

[gentle lake]

you really do not

[austere mica]

I
Would not

[gentle lake]

plus

[drowsy perch]

i want my sword to be a hot knife through butter on any difficulity

[austere mica]

Yeah we have a sword for that

[gentle lake]

why at hell are you taking infested on dclaw

[austere mica]

Power sword

[drowsy perch]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-gif-9112304746909169110

cause i can and its fun

[austere mica]

It actually has cleave damage and does more than 40% to flak on light attacks

[gentle lake]

you are shredding through them already with wrath

[snow sonnet]

do you need to charge helbore for it to do anything?

[calm shard]

I DO

[drowsy perch]

it shoot harder

[drowsy perch]

ok but

i tested it

[calm shard]

depends on the enemy, usually you only need to charge it for a tiny bit

[drowsy perch]

it does make it from like 1-2 hit to 1 hit all naked guys

[calm shard]

full charge is for ogryns and the like

[drowsy perch]

and being able to literlaly just

[austere mica]

Test it versus dreg bruisers

[drowsy perch]

slice hordes into bits

mmf

feels so good

idc if its not really good for anything else

my revolver cann one shot literally everything

[gentle lake]

?

Just

use this

[calm shard]

it actuallly does this normally too with common damage buffs

[gentle lake]

and take better talents pls

i mean blessings

[drowsy perch]

it just feels better

its a vibe

not a stats thing

like it feels like it goes through everything just smoother

clean slice

[gentle lake]

https://tenor.com/view/things-have-learnt-walk-that-gif-11089140048080542662

im sending this cat after u btw

hes coming

[calm shard]

mmmm that marvel rivals controversy has given me new perspective on "vibes" based gameplay

[drowsy perch]

idfk anything about rivals

i just play the game 4 fun

infested and unarmored feels more fun

and people get mad about it while i still be winning

[gentle lake]

you..play...this game..for...fun?!?!?!?!?!?

[drowsy perch]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-dogs-cute-smile-dog-im-silly-gif-17939001

[gentle lake]

gaming is hard work

not "fun"

you need to be playing optimally at all times OR ELSE

[austere mica]

I just can't stand dclaw being useless against anything with metal on its model AND not feeling good outside of the parry

Pick one

[gentle lake]

if u struggle to kill carapace w dclaw im sorry u have a skill issue 🥀

Simply backtrack the entire map to kill one crusher

[drowsy perch]

u just gotta hit them a lot

yea

or run something that one shots everything else

[gentle lake]

rlly fucking hoping they buff the dclaw

PLEASE

[calm shard]

It's not that bad depending on their attack rng

[snow sonnet]

would plasma gun be bad for a range build?

[gentle lake]

Yes it is

10 years to kill one crusher

[austere mica]

I played it with The Build on zealot and its still just sad how little it does to anything

[gentle lake]

https://tenor.com/view/di-gi-charat-dejiko-thumbs-up-anime-skin-you-alive-gif-1550950655339625299

[austere mica]

Fully ramped fotf crits for 1000 damage

Cry my eyes out

[gentle lake]

I liked it personally

I had uh

like 99% crit chance basically

me when I wack things to death

[austere mica]

If you crit max its almost tolerable

[snow sonnet]

how can i get a decent helbore sight as well?

[austere mica]

But you can only get like

What

80%? With scourge?

[drowsy perch]

ur stuck with what the mks have

[gentle lake]

Listen its good because I wack things to death

[drowsy perch]

this game dont got attachments

[gentle lake]

good weapon!!!

definitely...

[drowsy perch]

thats part of the reason i dont use helbore

shitass sights

[gentle lake]

[gentle lake]

valid tbh

pain in za dick

but you get used to it

[snow sonnet]

man sights are so important cause the gun takes up so much space with iron sights

[drowsy perch]

for whatever reason iron sights that take up a large part of the screen i always end up aiming too high

[gentle lake]

time to make more tea before mom gets up

[drowsy perch]

i dont know why

[snow sonnet]

because you cant see lol

dots always give good space

[gentle lake]

its not thatbad

wait

do I have a mod that makes it tolerable

I could

[gentle lake]

its fineeeeeee

but yeah I like

kinda carried using helbore and dclaw(BEST WEAPON IN GAME)

i really do believe you can get quite used to it over time

esp w exec stance

[snow sonnet]

i would like to not get used to his

[drowsy perch]

i wonder

if helbore bayonet

[gentle lake]

https://tenor.com/view/why-does-this-weird-ass-cat-walk-like-that-weird-cat-walk-what-the-fuck-gif-10387837565466180938

[drowsy perch]

you could main it

[gentle lake]

you can

just

[drowsy perch]

its pretty fast and decent damage

[gentle lake]

dont expect to do well.

you can kill mutants in 2 to 3 shots

[drowsy perch]

its kinda what i do as ogryn

shield too slow for just a few enemies

so i shank them with rippre

[snow sonnet]

i think the fact the iron sight is only a slight bump so like most of the enemy is covered

[drowsy perch]

or on armor since head hits fully stagger and can opener blessing

[calm shard]

wasn't like this before they "improved" MK IV's sight

[drowsy perch]

its also kinda just weirdly spaced

wider than youd expect

this shit look like i put a png onscreen

[snow sonnet]

it really is

[drowsy perch]

or like a battleship

[snow sonnet]

if only it just let you hipfire

[gentle lake]

get used to itttt

its definitely not...insufferable..

[snow sonnet]

guns like that were actually so insufferable that they made dot sights or something

dont fact check that

[austere wedge]

wait srsly?

why does it have stopping power stat and stagger blessings then 😭

[austere mica]

Stopping power is a damage stat

Collateral is a stagger stat

[tall torrent]

It’s funny that my 2 fav melee moveset weapons are both meh at best

DC sword 7 and falchion 2b

[dry cloak]

And/or damage depending on weapon

[tall torrent]

Not great cuz the weapon itself isn’t good at stagger

[pseudo fiber]

It'll be good one dayyyyy

[latent star]

Alright I think I got my stupid support tank build working.

Born Leader seems pretty good when every melee swing is regenerating 130+ toughness.

Thoughts on Grenade Tinkerer and Grenadier for Frag Grenades?

if you aren't doing a super grenade build.

[tall torrent]

Falchion 2b could be so much better with a few simple tweaks

[latent star]

its almost good for dumb niche builds that don't take melee talents.

(almost isn't enough)

[tall torrent]

Maybe we’ll start getting teasers for next update this week

[gentle lake]

Or next month

Next update: they fix the lag issue

[pseudo fiber]

Next update: Make it worse

[unreal nova]

You like your 60 FPS? We halved it now.

[slender elm]

Not again

[neat anvil]

Hello, I’m pretty new to the game, I’m like level 13 I think, but my question is, for weapons, can I off the rip start upgrading the rarity asap or should I wait until I’m higher level to do this? Same goes for empowering weapons?

[south river]

Wait til you're level 30, it's better just to use the drops you get from missions til then

[neat anvil]

Ah okay thank you! And 30 is max?

[south river]

30 is max player level yeh

[neat anvil]

Gotcha, thank you

[atomic onyx]

Why do I see people over 30 here and there then?

[slender elm]

max character level

over 30 is havoc level

[south river]

Yeh Havoc Clearance is a skull with laurels

goes up to 40

[slender elm]

which is the stacking difficult mode

[atomic onyx]

I just came back to Darktide after a year long break, so I'm still trying to get the hang of all the changes

[atomic onyx]

This makes any difference to gear? I saw red 500 gear similar to the Vermintide

[slender elm]

naw that's a mod

[atomic onyx]

Scamazed by youtubers

[south river]

Mods yeh

Gear maxes at 500 / orange

[south river]

Curios max at 430 iirc

[atomic onyx]

Would you recommend any solid source for builds? I see that Exec Stance has seemingly fallen out of favour, and I really liked it year ago. I'm wondering how to make it more viable again

[slender elm]

pinned guide

exec stance is less popular because of the aim requirement

lel

[atomic onyx]

xd

Same reason not that many people played hunter Markus Kruber in vermintide, despite being better archer than Kerillian somehow

[slender elm]

kerillian has a full auto bow so there

[south river]

I played Hunter with Boarspear/Bow on Kruber almost exclusively lol

[atomic onyx]

Emperor bless, will take a look

[slender elm]

i just played standard merc captain ngl

tho i did play a lot of grudgeraker and throwing axes...

[atomic onyx]

Most Keri's I saw late in the game were using throwing spears

[slender elm]

yeah, p2w busted dlc item

despicable elgi players

[atomic onyx]

How is it in Darktide? I saw 2 new classes, but I'm the most vanilla white bread John Darktide who plays veteran exclusively. Any gear for other classes comes with the dlc?

[south river]

DLC gear is exclusive to those classes

[calm shard]

nope neww classes have exclusive weapons just like the base classes do

[south river]

but they can use vanilla weapons as well

[slender elm]

hive scum continues to be overpowered

arbites is unkillable in most scenarios

[atomic onyx]

At least they did something good compared to vermintide. I remember despising having to buy winds of changes for the weapons

[slender elm]

winds of change is definitely a mistake ye

[thorn lark]

What???

[atomic onyx]

maybe, but those 2 classes have the distinct downside of not being a veteran

Straight to the garbage they go

[slender elm]

that's fine

[thorn lark]

You don't go out of stance doing melee kills now. It refreshes even.

It's just old man gaze now

[slender elm]

yeah but the bonuses are range based

and you have to not miss

unlike shout

[atomic onyx]

Not even sure why, but I really don't enjoy those other classes. In vermintide when i finally broke out of playing kruber only i enjoyed and mastered at least 1 spec of the other 4, but in Darktide i just cant

[thorn lark]

Hard to miss a yellowish figure tbh

[slender elm]

iunno, most of my darktide gameplay is hack and slash

[slender elm]

well you cant really miss pressing 1 button

instead of needing to click

[atomic onyx]

While i was scouring the internet I saw a lot of crying about Patch 13 or something, that supposedly nerfed exec into unplayability, but I missed that part entirely when i was on a break from fatshark

[slender elm]

i have no idea, only started like 3 months ago

people will cry and whinge, big deal, your personal experience is most important

[pseudo fiber]

Patch 13 came out October 2023 lmfao so those complaints are a tad outdated

[atomic onyx]

True enough, thanks for poining out the pinned guide, will take a look after work 🫡

[atomic onyx]

Shit, guess i didnt play for 1.5 year, time flies, huh

[pseudo fiber]

Indeed

[pseudo fiber]

We're all old I know

Crafting rework is 2 years old this year

[slender elm]

Ohno

[thorn lark]

Crazy

[slender elm]

Glad I didn't have to experience the jank

Well, some of the jank

[pseudo fiber]

Jank is part of the charm

One tapped by captain shields

Trying to dodge on a slope

Dogs not working

Poxbursters

[slender elm]

Nah wouldn't say it is

[unreal nova]

Learning to fly?

[pseudo fiber]

Longshot probably fixed

[wild vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/nothing-food-fridge-sad-gif-16804654

[atomic onyx]

Guys, I have a quick question about "The Bigger they are..." Talent in the Exec stance skill line. The skill says that it extends the duration to 8s, but doesnt mention the refresh on highlight kill. Does having this talent refresh the Exec stance to full 8s as per the Bigger they are talent, or just 5 sec as per the exec stance description? I'm wondering if its better to go with this or counter-fire for the ease of picking targets to refresh duration

[calm shard]

yeah the full 8 seconds

[atomic onyx]

Good, that's better. Still need to think between Counter-fire and Bigger they are, both seem quite good

[mental barn]

I have tried both

Initially I thought counter-fire would be the superior choice because there are more enemies it highlights

but after doing a bunch of runs I realised the bigger they are works better for me

the main reason is the 8S duration and 8S extension

reloading my gun takes 3 seconds if I don't manage to animation cancel it (longer if I try and fail to animation cancel) and I often have to clear horde a bit before firing again

I found the 8 second helps me keep exec stance up for longer

and on damnation and Auric I seem to almost always have enough targets to keep reseting the duration

plus, the enemies that reset its duration are the actual priority targets that i should probably be focusing on anyway. With the bigger they are, I can switch to a krak, launch it at a crusher, switch back to my gun, and by the time I took out my gun again my exec stance is back up at 8 s

which feels very nice

meanwhile with a 5s duration if I ever take out a krak and try to deal with a bulwark or crusher, then I am probably losing exec stance because by the time i switch back to my gun and find some poor gunner to blast it tends to run out

@atomic onyx

[atomic onyx]

Solid read, good arguments, would recommend that poster again

Now i just need to find a decent Helbore to actually try the build out

[mortal horizon]

in h40 the 8s duration just feels best to me too

even doing my best to take out little shooters, i drop exe when i dont want to too often without it

• lots of ogryns in havoc

and they have huge HP pools

so the boost helps a lot

[hearty panther]

A refreshing eight seconds of stun immunity and toughness regen in melee is also pretty sweet.

[mortal horizon]

exe stance makes you unable to be stunned?

didnt realize that

[hearty panther]

ye

thy xstance be swift

[tame lodge]

It's one of the unlisted bonuses

Stun immunity
Slow immunity

Can't be broken out of ADS

[hearty panther]

It's always been there but it had very minimal application until they let us use the ult with melee.

[mental barn]

my most common way of dying on my exe stance build is by being surrounded by a horde and not getting any toughness regen because my only top toughness node is confirmed kill

i am now wondering if I should use exe stance differently

[hearty panther]

The good ol days of losing your entire stance cause you had to unnet a teammate or dared to be pressured enough to throw a grenade.

[mental barn]

and instead of focusing on activating it when i see targets for it, activate it when surrounded

[hearty panther]

I just use xstance as soon as I see marked targets tbh

It's always good.

[mental barn]

I have read that hellbore is considered quite good at the moment and is probably more meta than what I use. Personally I enjoy recon lasgun a lot more, and I feel it benefits more from the reduced sway and recoil (can be hip fired to laserbeam heads)

[atomic onyx]

I might toy around a bit with some different weapons, Helbore is highly recommended right now. I'm still getting my bearings after a long break (about 2 yrs) and only the Chainsword/Powersword + Plasma gun build is still somehow viable after all that time, so I'm rocking that until i get some decent gear to try Sniper build and the laspistol one

Plasma is just insane, but i dont like to stick to one build only, so I want 3-5 builds i could rotate whenever i feel like it

[mental barn]

it is so crazy to me that plasma not only deals really good damage and stagger

but even goes through bullwark shield

bullwarks are the reason I run kraks on every build

but with plasma I am not even sure you have to

[atomic onyx]

The most insane part of all this for me is the ridiculous ammo capacity. I would understand the ability of plasma, especially compared to something like bolt gun

But bolt guns have tiny magazines, whereas i only reload my plasma gun on mid-break points like elevators or chambers between 2 zones

Even the heat-dumping seems weird for me, since its always 5-ticks, regardless of heat, so I dont really feel punished in any meaningful way for reaching 100% heat, when i dump 20% per tick in the worst case scenario

[sterile phoenix]

What’s the preferred lasgun to use (besides accatran)

[atomic onyx]

The Helbore, apparently, cant say why though, still looking for it xd

[night talon]

Helbore can deal with all targets if built right, including crushers

(and shoot through airlock doors)

[tame lodge]

Any that isn't Infantry

[night talon]

I've been trying SO hard to make infantry work the last few days since the cadian cosmetics released

[tame lodge]

You see, they aren't bad
They just aren't good

A Laspistol is better than it

[mental barn]

There is the cringe VIc which has better ergonomics (faster movement when firing and reload), less bad muzzle flash and slightly higher DPS without talents/blessings than the other options, this is the option this chat seems to favour

and might be the better option overall

but there is the superior meme potential of BRRRRRRRR

on the XII

and also XII goes better with stuff that requires stacking like the very popular infernus blessing and the forbidden onslaught talent that shall not be spoken of

[night talon]

are you talking infantry lasgun with those numerals?

[mental barn]

Ah I thought you were asking about recon

[night talon]

He was asking about anything but recon

[mental barn]

since you mentioned accatran and I thought you wanted the mark

[night talon]

I was talking about infantry lasgun

[mental barn]

alright, I have no info on those, aside from them being considered kind of bad last time I saw someone ask about them

[night talon]

Infantry Lasgun is useable. It's just got a more drawbacks than it should. It's kinda outclassed in efficacy and usability by helbore and the Graia Headhunter

Poor dodges, very bad stamina drain, sights that are very slightly higher than where the shot actually goes and awful recoil

Mk 9 (IX) is far too slow for anybody but very skilled marksmen to use effectively.
Mk 7 (VII) is the middle-ground option and ideal for executioners stance builds with good one-shot headshot power and two-shot bodyshot potential on most if built right.
Mk 2b (IIb) is rapid firing, basically a vraks autogun except it gives you carpal tunnel.

It also struggles to deal with Plasma Gunners effectively because it's a finesse weapon that can't penetrate carapace in the slightest, which makes it compare even worse to Helbore/Headhunter

/rant

[serene bough]

It basically has the post buff recon issue, where it requires all damage buffs to be usable, which inevitably cripples your build

I hold the opinion buffing wont necessarily change its current popularity too much since recon already more or less does its job but much more easily

Helbore in a sense too, but it can punch heavier armored targets more consistently

[turbid ibex]

I would def use it more if it got the buffs it needs

[serene bough]

I would too, but id argue recon would still be taken more than ilas since its easier to use

Id really like if they make the 3 marks more distinct, i.e. IIb is burst fire like the scab stalkers use and IX has innate rending

[turbid ibex]

Wdym innate rending?

[unreal nova]

Better adm.

[last marten]

do any marks have rendering

[night talon]

None of the lasgun marks, no

[turbid ibex]

No weapon has innate rending

[serene bough]

Moreso just adjusting ADM

Make it punch through cara/flak more significantly to correspond to 15-25% rending on cara, for example

[turbid ibex]

So just increasing the carapace and flak adms

[serene bough]

Yeah pretty much

[night talon]

Like, one thing that I think really cripples the ilas is that the graia vigilant autogun fills the niche of all of the (infantry) lasguns and is better in every way. It can one-shot headshot everything except crushers which it can 3-4 shot. It has no recoil, it has a good magazine, it is manoeverable and has the same reload. It's even ammo efficient (though obv less ammo efficient than a lasgun with shock trooper). Take any lasgun build and replace the lasgun with a vigilant mk VII and it's only improved.

Oh, and has a decent rate of fiire.

It also requires heavy investment that the lasgun requires, but you get like... more capability as a result, so your melee weaknesses are far less pronounced

[serene bough]

I guess to be more specific, VII having slightly better flak adm and IX having significant flak and cara adm

Then IIb more or less the same but is a 3-round burst

In addition to other QoL (less recoil, bigger hitbox, more ammo)

[night talon]

also why is the infantry lasgun so stamina intensive to run with?

[hearty panther]

ive been on that shit for YEARS

[mental barn]

Is there an in universe reason for lasguns having worse recoil than autoguns?

seems kind of strange to me

[night talon]

no, in universe they dont have that problem

what they do have is they need to replace the focusing crystal every 2-3 battles because it starts becoming less lethal from over-use but thats the most they deal with

[turbid ibex]

Nope

Because in-universe they straight up have no recoil

Because its y'know

A fucking laser

[serene bough]

Iirc there is a lore justification for recoil along the lines of, the weapon feels awkward without recoil so the gun has artificially added recoil

[mental barn]

lol

[serene bough]

But yeah it is a laser, there shouldn't be recoil

[pseudo fiber]

It's not really even lore the devs said they did recoiless lasguns and jt felt bad

[night talon]

i can't find a source for this even though people keep saying it

i've not looked recently but i've tried to look this up in the past

[hearty panther]

no lore justification, its purely about game feel

a recoiless gun just does not feel good to 'shoot'

[bronze idol]

what are the best perks/blessings for the shovel? the guide here doesn't say a thing

[mental barn]

btw I have almost uninstalled this game after experiencing infantry lasgun for the first time. it was the first weapon the emperor gave me as a vet, and I thought "great, I like the idea of using a laser weapon"

I got the slowest firing variant

[pseudo fiber]

Actually there's been some lore reasons before.
Venting heat was one I think

[mental barn]

it was unbelievably anti-fun

[serene bough]

Perhaps it depends on the author of whichever book is depicting the gun

[night talon]

true

[pseudo fiber]

There's about 1 billion different lasgun descriptions

And colours too!

[hearty panther]

oh im sure there's one somewhere out there because warhammer is a fucking mess

[pseudo fiber]

Lasguns shoot blue lasers in gaunts ghosts

Yellow in all media

Red in the games

[hearty panther]

but the devs didnt care about any of that shit nor even tried to find such an example

they added recoil because without the recoil it felt like you werent doing anything

[serene bough]

That sounds about right but the thing kicks like a mule lol

[mental barn]

idk recon lasgun shakesa a bit but is still a laser beam if adsing

[hearty panther]

idk i think its genuinely perfect

[mental barn]

no need to pull up or down

[hearty panther]

each one is spammable

yea exactly

you can just mash click and your shots will all land on your original point

recoil is really not its problem

[serene bough]

Its tolerable to me when in exe stance but otherwise the recoil is dumb

[hearty panther]

i mean xstance turns recoil off

even bolter stays perfectly in place

[serene bough]

Theres still a little bit if youre spam firing the IIb for example

[turbid ibex]

Yeah and instead of just adding some small subtle recoil they made it feel like youre firing a fucking 50 cal

I dont think its unreasonable to think there couldve been a middle ground

[serene bough]

Im guessing they built the guns stats with exe stance in mind

other than vet i cant recall seeing any other class run infantry las in the several years I've been playing

[turbid ibex]

even with exestance the recoil animations are absurdly exagerated

[hearty panther]

i actually do run ilas on zealot and psyker

for zealot at high havocs the IIb is probs my go to of all ranged

on psyker i just find it fun

[night talon]

very interesting

why do you prefer it

[hearty panther]

for which

the iib, the gun at all on either class, etc.?

[night talon]

both

The gun on either class

the 2b makes sense, its very easy to use

[hearty panther]

comical capacity and yeah iib comes out faster, isnt so fucken dumb on your stamina when sprinting, instant sprint to fire state

like 90% of what you do on zealot is melee so just having an extremely reliable sidearm is plenty for me

[serene bough]

Stamina on ilas is definitely something to be addressed

[hearty panther]

yea it slouches against flak and unyielding but i really just need something to fuck up specials

and at its worst it's a machine that turns laser shots into ghost procs

but at like four times the capacity of the pistol

[mental barn]

speaking of lasguns, which hellbore MK is considered the good one?

[turbid ibex]

all of them are good but 4 is the one i think is used the most for the one shots

[mental barn]

what are the others better at?

I have not used one ever

[hollow ibex]

IV: Biggest alpha strike damage. Dogshit bayonet. Strong uncharged shots to make up for very poor charge times.
III: Middle child. More flexible than IV due to faster charge time, should have better one-shot breakpoints than V, but still lower rate of fire. Poor carapace ADMs.
V: Highest DPS Helbore, but lowest alpha strike damage. Very fast charge times (especially with weight of fire). One-shot breakpoints on smaller elites may be dependent on crits.

[ember halo]

Just tried the pinned bomber build in hammer of the emperor. It’s a fun build, but I feel I’m probably not playing it properly.

Is it best to always stealth first, then underhand toss grenades? Will they get the +30% increase to damage to the nades from infiltrate?

[hollow ibex]

tried to be objective (V is the best )

[mental barn]

thanks

[hollow ibex]

oh path stole my build

😠

[hollow ibex]

underhand the first one, overhand the second one

i do it wrong in the clip lol

because what you really want

is the damage to apply to the bleed dots you inflicted

and you want to have time to throw the second nade

[mental barn]

is an underhand toss just aiming and tossing at the grtound and that's it?

[hollow ibex]

underhand doesn't break invisibility

overhand does

[mental barn]

or is there like a super secret keyboard button combo i have to use

[hollow ibex]

yeah

[ember halo]

Ok, I’ve been trying to follow this when I play. I usually try to use it for mixed hordes or patrols. Any point against crushers and the like? Or mainly better for maulers/gunners, ragers etc?

[hollow ibex]

it's ok against crushers if you have a weapon like knife with uncanny strike

where you can quickly stack uncanny strike after dropping the eggs

otherwise nades don't do much against crushers

[hexed vale]

What's the best ranged for shooting Poxbursters on a Marksman's Focus build?

[hollow ibex]

because bleed has dogshit carapace ADMs (which uncanny strike can fix)

[hollow ibex]

anything

bursters aren't very tanky lol

[hexed vale]

I did get yelled at the other day for daring to suggest one does anything but shove the burster

[midnight galleon]

as long as its not close to anyone, lol

[hollow ibex]

yeah tbh i don't mind people shooting bursters now

since they'er so fucking bugged

but you do have to be careful

[ember halo]

Yeah, I’m using power sword and bolt pistol like the build suggests for the 30% explosion radius increase. But bolt pistol is..strong but annoying p

[hollow ibex]

if you have WS stacks

that guarantee crit

it's ok

gun's really bad otherwise

[mental barn]

@hollow ibex do you ever use charged shots on the mk5 helbore gun or just spam uncharged shots?

[tame lodge]

Always charge

[hollow ibex]

Yeah I mean the charged is so fast

[wild vortex]

Mk5 with weight of fire charges insanely fast anyway

[mental barn]

alright, working on leveling it now

[wild vortex]

The fact that mk3a has lower carapace ADM than mk5 is such a Fatshark moment

[hollow ibex]

Yeah doesn’t make sense

[formal ice]

Can any one of you freaks recommend a plasma build

It doesn't need to be the best, just fun

[thorn lark]

Plasma is not fun tho :/

[hollow ibex]

literally impossible

[formal ice]

Seriously?

Damn

[turbid ibex]

Havoc build on pinned guide

And take exestance

[snow sonnet]

does las recon have some jank hitbox that makes it so headshot arent headshots?

[stark holly]

Not exactly, but if you are running the burn blessings, it’s pretty common for enemies to die to your dots instead of your actual attacks

So it can make headshot kills harder to get

[wild vortex]

I sense the suffering of a Killshot penance chaser

[snow sonnet]

ha ha noo....

while the shotgun is a lot better for it i kind of wish i had more horde clear

[wild vortex]

DB Fletchette Manstopper is the best horde clear weapon in the game no contest

[bronze idol]

hey guys, what are the best blessings for the Shovel?

[tough nova]

Skullcrusher uncanny

[bronze idol]

and the dumb is still mobility or defense?

[hollow ibex]

Mobility on mk1

Defense on the others

[bronze idol]

cheers! thanks guys 🙂

[snow sonnet]

nvm the headshots on shotgun fail to give me stacks

you know killshot penance is just awful because the games code is truly horrid sometimes

[wild vortex]

I am at 2430/2500

been grinding the last ~300 with Helb0re

[snow sonnet]

mortis trial plus horde clear kind of goes crazy

also man i thought plasteel is the first to go but uh..

[unreal nova]

Normal. It used to be plasteel from what I heard. Now is dockets tbh.

[analog yacht]

yeah i noticed this as well. they must've changed the ratio a while ago

i had a huge stockpile of diamantine but it's almost out 😔

the upshot is you can freely spend plasteel leveling weapons i guess

[unreal nova]

Funny enough, I'm pretty sure they increased the drops for both, especially if you play on uprising or malice.

[errant carbon]

At launch it was Plasteel (gambling on upgrading weapons)

Then when they added Brunt's Armory it was Dockets (gambling on base weapon stats before gambling on upgrades)

Then when they added Auric it was Plasteel again (yuge docket rewards from Auric Damnation)

I heard that after Unlocked & Loaded it became Diamantine, but I have no idea anymore, I haven't run low on any of the three for a long time

[stable socket]

overhand is LMB while your nade is out, underhand is RMB and has a lower arc iirc

[mental barn]

Ohh, so it is a different button

[stable socket]

i believe so - you can test in the psykhanium, i'm 99% sure LMB and RMB have different arcs. not sure how that interacts with infiltrate because i've never used infiltrate in my life, but you can also test that in psykhanium

[unreal nova]

For me, it's just dockets tbh since I starting buying the commissary stuff.

[steep flower]

I would say the opposite

[hollow ibex]

why?

[steep flower]

Mk3 push is a swipe which works perfectly with lights for hordes so that would be mob dump
Rest is defence cause mk7 already has a flip mode for singles and its inferior to mk3 while mk1 runs uncanny and you combine that with serrated blade talent you melt everything by spamming; you don’t tank your stamina (you shoudn’t) - its basically safer (even if it may take longer)

[hollow ibex]

i was only talking about MK1 anyway

and MK1 has a strong PA

which you'll be using against carapace frequently

that being said, dumping def is totally fine too

i doubt it matters at all

[wild vortex]

why use any shovel other than mk1

[steep flower]

An overhead yes but you shoudn’t spam it - better to as i said; combine serrated with uncanny & spam lights then maybe finish with a push att
Never spam it

[steep flower]

Did you ever tried mk3?

[wild vortex]

ya

hated it in comparison

[hollow ibex]

spamming it is the highest DPS iirc

[steep flower]

Maybe you were using it wrong/wrong setup?

[steep flower]

It might be but it ain’t the safest

[hollow ibex]

can confirm 3's pretty solid

yeah you can throw in lights

to break it up

so dumping mob instead of defense helps you maintain higher dps

against crushers and shit

because you can use the PA more

[wild vortex]

maybe, I'm just not a fan of the moveset as much

[steep flower]

Thats what i do on mk1; i stack uncanny & bleed with lights then use push if its still alive: never spam to not tank stamina

[hollow ibex]

you don't like light spam weapons? 😭

[wild vortex]

I thought you do a heavy-light combo?

[hollow ibex]

yeah that works ofc

[wild vortex]

also its sweep pattern is a little odd

[hollow ibex]

nah just light spam with serrated blade

against hordes

[wild vortex]

whereas mk1 heavy sweeps are straight horizontal slaps

[hollow ibex]

against heavy it's special heavy spam

[hollow ibex]

Mk VII wants heavy light tho

[steep flower]

Bruh its literally 180 swipe with no angling (only 1st is and 4th is a strikedown)

[steep flower]

Or heavy spam like mk1

[hollow ibex]

oh yeah true

[steep flower]

Identical

Same for PS

But its flip is dogshit in comparison to mk3

Thus its the worst shovel

[hollow ibex]

yeah mk vii latch sucks

feels like a crowbar

[steep flower]

Wanna know smth worse?

[hollow ibex]

i think i just realized why i hate crowbar

[hollow ibex]

lol what

[steep flower]

Its worse than the crowbar

[steep flower]

It does the same amount of dmg as the mk3 flip attack

[hollow ibex]

oh yeah

and it's just slower

[steep flower]

Also angle vs perfect overhead

[hollow ibex]

yeaaaah

[steep flower]

If they would buff its dmg then it would be somewhat redeemable

After all its the heavy variant

[torpid grotto]

I tried using it fir the first time yesterday and the heavy was almost unusable

[turbid ibex]

What about the medium

[thorn lark]

Ooohhhhh

[narrow frost]

?

[thorn lark]

I didn't realize you were concealed as well

[narrow frost]

Gas is the same as smoke nade

[thorn lark]

TIL

I knew you couldn't proce outline abilities but now I'll try to use that to my advantage

[tall torrent]

It’s not rly worth cuz gas is way bigger buff to enemies & debuff to u than what concealment does for u

[left garden]

Say, what's the plasma gun's purpose? Is it to do immense damage against elites/specials?

[turbid ibex]

Its your standard specialist/elite sniping gun

[left garden]

I see, and charge/tapfire? s'there any nuance there or just... bigger enemies get the bigger plasma shot?

[turbid ibex]

Dont bother with charged shots

Hipfire should already one shot any enemy you'd want to shoot at

Use melee and kraks for stuff like crushers and maulers

[left garden]

I see

[latent star]

IMO the only real time to use the charged shot is when you need big damage and have a guaranteed crit ready from weapon specialist. That's niche and build-specific but a 100% crit charged shot can make some big holes.

[mental barn]

Ok here is a question: imagine you are running boltgun and krak or helbore and krak or plasma gun and krak

And just need something to deal with hordes as your melee

You want mobility and safe horde clear

What do you take as your melee

[narrow frost]

Taxe

[latent star]

MK1 shovel

[narrow frost]

Tactical axe

[mental barn]

Power sword has good horde clear but sucks at mobility

[narrow frost]

Heavy sword is good too

[mental barn]

Which MK? i am a noob

[narrow frost]

Mk7 for axe

[latent star]

TAxe is great but I wouldn't say it's a good horde clear?

[narrow frost]

It's good horde clear

Has BM with high base damage to most horde armor

[mental barn]

What is bm

[narrow frost]

Brutal momentum

Able to 1 shot 3 enemies in 1 attack

[mental barn]

Ok so I need that blessing on it?

And what other blessing do I want

With this setup

[narrow frost]

Check the guide, path had the setup

BM plus headtaker

[mental barn]

Ok

Thx

[wild vortex]

the fact that you can spam PA-heavy for no drawback is kinda nuts

[mental barn]

You said heavy sword too

[narrow frost]

Yes

[mental barn]

Is that even better at horde clear?

Or just about the same

[narrow frost]

Yeah it's better at horde

Way higher maniac damage

But less stagger and mobility

[mental barn]

Got it

[mortal horizon]

gotta get the combo down, push atk -> heavy for safe clear. Heavy -> light repeat for best dps, can be hard to chain correctly tho bc its very fast, but its good

[mortal horizon]

also i think worse against armor? but idk, heavy sword 9 alt special spam with block cancel or special h1 repeat i feel may be close to a tac axe 7 on killing a crusher without any rending buffs, is it? or is tac axe clearly faster

[latent star]

I guess I'd consider high stagger important for safe horde clear but the TAxe can absolutely blender light targets if you're hitting weak spots.

And not light targets tbh

[mortal horizon]

tax axe special is awesome too, stops maulers, crushers, even mutants and ragers in their tracks with a headshot

[mortal horizon]

oh god, nvm

its not even close

i kinda thought the heavy sword special spam might be -close- to a tac axe with no outside rending buffs

but the tac axe is easily double the dps on a crusher, at least lol

derp on my part

wait - i havent used the power flachion much, maybe i need to try it

this thing has decent dmg into crushers lol

why is it bad again?

i guess downtime?

[tame lodge]

Overall mid stats

Poor blessings

Incredibly bad unpowered

[mortal horizon]

man its kinda good powered tho LOL

i need to use this thing and try it out in a live match, i never have tbh

this uppercut slaps on the one model, i see it has a 120%/110% bonus power on the uppercuts

but the moveset is kinda icky

the other has a nicer moveset

[supple stag]

Falchion feels awkward

Also issues mentioned above

[mortal horizon]

man i feel this thing would a really good weapon in the vets kit if it worked out, it can kill armor and horde clear, and is cool, isnt super slow like the psword

ill have to use it a few times to see if i notice the issues with it

the blessings are kinda meh, but relic sword does just fine with cranial grounding

[supple stag]

Relic Blade is a different beast though

[mortal horizon]

i feel like cranial + wrath, or heatsink would be good

ya true, not meaning to compare them 1:1

what blessings are considered best for it?

does it need wrath in h40?

[tall torrent]

it's 8~10 buffs away from being good

[tame lodge]

You know the weapon is shit when wrath is a blessing option

🥀

[mortal horizon]

haha, im just messing with it in meat grinder, it just felt way better than i expected. tbh i heard it was dissapointing and never used it lol

[mortal horizon]

theres a lot of good weapons with wrath, and which wrath is a good choice lol (at least in h40)

relic blade, for one

[mortal horizon]

hope they do buff it, i would love a new toy for build diversity in h40, i know i CAN use it (and imma try a match with it tonight) but i dont wanna troll my team lmao

[tame lodge]

Don't need it

💀

[mortal horizon]

ive always run wrath over rampage in h40, and feel i noticed it, but i could be doing it wrong (for relic blade)

[tall torrent]

it's a bit lower single target dmg than ideal
unpowered non-smiter attacks are abysmal (really low ADMs, low dmg)
heavy attacks' windup are quite long for its intended role of a "more agile power sword"
it has quite a bit longer cooling downtime than relic blade

[mortal horizon]

i see the downtime, and the bad unpowered mode as the two big things.
I dont feel the attacks are -that- slow, but ya its not great.
Im ok with the armor/single target being real bad when unpowered, just need better up time and maybe they could increase its unarmoured dmg/cleave when unpowered? It should still feel useable unpowered into groaners/poxies i think is the sweet spot, then power it up for elites/denser horde units like moebian etc

do people run heatsink on it to help the uptime? or is it not good bc you're missing 2nd dmg or cleave blessing?

[tall torrent]

heatsink is dogshit

if u want practical activated uptime max, run cranial + overload

[mortal horizon]

rip

[tall torrent]

heatsink is actual bait

[mortal horizon]

ah overload -25% is more uptime than heatsink? gotcha

[tall torrent]

Heatsink works at 1/4 value unless the weapon is overheated
Sure it will extend your activated duration
It just doesn’t extend it by that much more
And, when it’s overheated (full value), you need basically full Heatsink uptime to get it ~equal cooling time as overload
However overload does an actually good stagger blast (can stagger ragers, maulers and bulwark) and has no conditions attached to making the overheat duration shorter

[mortal horizon]

do you think itll get a little love/buff, or nah? ive been hearing some people complain to 'stop buffing everything' due to power creep

[tall torrent]

I don't fully agree with those people and I think it needs 8~10 buffs to make it feel good & distinct

[mortal horizon]

thats kinda nice, would you say cranial/overload are the best blessings on it?

[errant carbon]

Stop buffing everything, just buff genuine underperformers

[tall torrent]

can't say best but it certainly feels better than 13s cooling downtime

[mortal horizon]

ya im with you, i dont fully agree either, i dont think bringin up a weapon thats not used right now to be useable is truly power creep.

buffing things to be equal to or better than the current STRONGEST most op stuff, is power creep

[latent star]

The big issue with the power falchion is you take a pretty big weakness (activation requirement and very weak when not powered) in exchange for..... good horde clear that you can basically find on other weapons and decent armor damage when powered that you can basically find on other weapons.

[mortal horizon]

part of what makes me wonder if i wont mind the downtime, is i want to run it on a recon las build, where i drop kraks and onslaught, and basically only use it for horde or crushers

[tall torrent]

unless power sword gets nerfed, falchion will always be a shadow of power sword
I just didn't expect falchion to be <0.5x of power sword's dps

[wild vortex]

the issue is that the people complaining about powercreep are actual god gamers who could sleepwalk this game

[mortal horizon]

this would allow me to spam shredders, which i find MUCH more fun than kraks

[wild vortex]

so while they're not wrong, they're also not representative per se, lol

[tall torrent]

I cud try to write up smth for suggested falchion tweaks since I do have their attacks' numbers

[analog yacht]

power sword needs a rework imo

[mortal horizon]

im ok with that, my opinion is things dont need to be 'the best' to be solid and useable.
im ok with falchion being alwaysw a little worse than a min maxed powersword, but with other benefits (more mobility, easier activation system) it just has to be tuned right.

[latent star]

The falchion is almost viable as a "I don't want any melee talents but still want horde claer" weapon but its not quite good enough IMO and its still generally just worse than power sword.

[tall torrent]

(also I like 2b more than 1, I actually think 2b has one of the coolest movesets in the game)

[tall torrent]

it prob won't happen because falchion's alrdy released

[mortal horizon]

this is what im interested in it for, ranged focus build, something for horde and crushers

[mortal horizon]

ya its moveset is really cool, its just a lil awkward. What you doing for hordeclear with it

the bonus dmg on the uppercuts is cool

[latent star]

I've tried it for that purpose and while it does have some nice clear sometimes my takeaway from every game was either "I should have a shovel instead" or "I should just use power sword."

[tall torrent]

behold the new moveset formatting

[mortal horizon]

ya i was just looking at it so far im on heavy-light repeat, they're diagonals not super horizontal but seem to work

[tall torrent]

despite L4 looking like an uppercut (that would use smiter), it's actually sweep

[mortal horizon]

ah heavy, push atk, light,

[tall torrent]

H sweep (IIb's H1) is quite a bit better dmg than H tank (I's H3)

I still think falchion needs a lot of small-medium buffs

[mortal horizon]

do you mean in terms of how many targets it hits, or its dmg profile

its weird bc it LOOKS like its doing a sweep, then uppercuts lol

especially on the h2

throws me off

1500 dps on an auric crusher doing l1, h2, repeat is honestly not bad lol

not h40 but damn

[analog yacht]

PS is exacerbated by blessings as well. Like power cycler + sunder/bromentum is so dumb what's the point

[mortal horizon]

i gotta try it in a match tonight

[analog yacht]

bromentum needs to be deleted overall

[mortal horizon]

you can also do h1, l2, l3, block cancel repeat with the IIb

ya its moveset is pretty cool

im using this thing tonight idgaf

we making it work

lol

is decapitator blessing doodoo? 💩

[latent star]

mostly, the activation requirements are unforgiving

[errant carbon]

The point (until relatively recently) was to have 2 amazing blessings and 8 dogshit ones to make it less likely to get the 2 amazing ones so players have to gamble (grind) more

[analog yacht]

the crafting rework was so long ago lol

[latent star]

and it also kind of nullifiies itself, since the requirement is "kill a full health enemy with one weakspot hit" and if you can kill an enemy with one weakspot hit already how valuable is that temporary extra finesse going to be?

[tall torrent]

it's using the sweep attack profile instead of smiter

[analog yacht]

it's kinda redundant. If you're getting one-shots then extra damage is half wasted. Ideally you one-shot a bunch of trash then hit an elite but it's not super consistent

[mortal horizon]

trueee lol

[tall torrent]

nah

BM just reduce how many times it can be activated

it activating 3 times is pretty dumb

[mortal horizon]

personally i dont think cleave blessings are the issue

[latent star]

screaming at my team to stop damaging the poxwalkers so I can stack up my finesse high enough to almost do powersword-level damage to the crusher.

[mortal horizon]

99% of the time its ADM/anti armor blessings on a weapon

that make or break it

[tall torrent]

yes

[analog yacht]

BM isn't just a cleave blessing since it just applies 1st target repeatedly

[mortal horizon]

it functions as one tho, essentially

but ya i see your point

[tall torrent]

BM if it only worked once is a very fair & balanced blessing

not 3 times

conceptually it's one of the coolest things in this game

[errant carbon]

Yes, but this Blessing system is still derived from old crafting, it's just not RNG-based anymore.

Plus it takes Fatshark years to do things, and they very rarely make consequential changes to weapon blessings for whatever reason. How long has VT2 been out, with how many balance passes to classes and talents? Yet (as of the last time I played anyway), the only change Fatshark ever made to weapon traits was to permanently enshrine Swift Slaying supremacy.

[mortal horizon]

this is true, its not like they've ever balanced weapn builds in that game, swift slaying has been the best in slot for literally ever

[errant carbon]

Generally no, but having a weapon with one drawback and then giving it a blessing that removes that one drawback so hard it makes it good in that aspect is a problem

[mortal horizon]

ya good point

[tame lodge]

Good on paper 🥀

[mortal horizon]

ah, ok, ill show the heretics my paper then with the math on it showing why it should be good, they'll die for me then ya?

https://klipy.com/gifs/johnny-laugh-four

im gonna try it tonight anyway, i need to take the weapon in a live match to feel it myself

good info tho guys ty

maybe they'll buff it next patch 👀

https://klipy.com/gifs/copium-meme

[tame lodge]

Problem with Decapitator is the proc condition

[errant carbon]

Don't get into that game with the heretics, trust me

[tame lodge]

Your own cleave damage distribution already fucks it up
Your own team fucks it up

[errant carbon]

Many such cases

[tall torrent]

Mk IIb

• change PA's attack template from Tank to H Tank
• change L1 and Lp's power level to 550

Mk I

• change PA's attack template from Smiter to H Smiter

cutting_am (ADM preset, used by Sweep & Tank)

• Unyielding ADM changed from 50% to 75%
• Flak ADM changed from 50% to 75%

power_am (ADM preset, used by all activated attacks)

• Unyielding ADM changed from 110% to 125% (won't affect power sword's activated attacks' ADM because they all have overrides already)

H Sweep (activated)

• add ignore stagger reduction

H Smiter (activated)

• override Maniac ADM from 100% to 110%
• override Unyielding ADM from 110% to 125%
• override Flak ADM from 100% to 110%
• override Carapace ADM from 80% to 100%

cooling rate modifier

• 0~30% heat: increase from 1 to 1.2
• 30~70% heat: increase from 1.2 to 1.5

and prob more

I'm too lazy to write them all

falchion rly can use a LOT of small buffs

it's heavily bottlenecked by sharing a bunch of ADM presets with power sword

and they were way too conservative of making its activated attacks have noticeably high dmg vs tougher enemies

[turbid ibex]

So true bestie

[tall torrent]

power sword's activated stab has 412.5 dmg, 200% unyielding ADM, 125% carapace ADM and 1.65 finesse

falchion's activated H smiter has 410 dmg, 110% unyielding ADM, 80% carapace ADM and 1.485 finesse

https://tenor.com/view/thomas-the-train-thomas-thomas-the-tank-engine-thomas-and-friends-ishowspeed-gif-7297322352901128995

[mortal horizon]

wait, is this made about darktide? because my god hahaha. spot on "weapon that sucks on its own" "blessing that literally makes the entire weapon work" and "meh, throw something else in there bc we have to..." hilarious

[analog yacht]

oh also @tall torrent

It's worth noting that because of the way this formula works, +CD rate effects directly cause diminishing returns (often severely) from CD reduction effects and % CD skip effects.
This isn't exactly true. % cd skip is kinda like %dr where more is exponential. CDR is the linear one. If you cast ability off cd CDR is just a linear % of how many extra ability casts you'll get.

To again use the damage resist example: gunner shots do 16.25. The first DR curio reduces the damage by 3.25, the next by 2.6, etc. We know though that this isn't diminishing returns because your actual eHP against gunners is going up 1.25x each time.

Similarly if you combine 20% cd skip with +100% cdr, your net cooldown will be 12 seconds, which is equivalent to +150% cdr

[tall torrent]

it's diminishing returns in the sense that the 20% CD skip on a 30s CD would be 6s, but once u have +CD rate stuff going on, it's not the full 6s you're getting

the end value that matters here is the exact CD number, not percentages

[analog yacht]

That's similar to saying "first gunner DR curio is 3.25 less damage per shot but the next is only 2.6, ergo diminishing returns." In the same way that what actually matters is the gunner's TTK, what matters is ability up-time.

[tall torrent]

No, because the end value that matters is how many shots you can take, not the exact damage number per shot

[analog yacht]

Like there is a point where you have enough up-time and you don't need more, just like having enough damage to hit 1-shot breakpoints etc. But that doesn't make it diminishing returns

[analog yacht]

Correct, the value that matters is eHP, and for abilities the value that matters is up-time.

[tall torrent]

What’s CDR here

Reduction or rate

[analog yacht]

rate, should've typed it out

[tall torrent]

Rate does cause diminishing returns on everything at the top

[analog yacht]

15 seconds off a 60 second cd is solid, but 15 seconds off a 30 second CD is huge, and that's because of the effective cooldown rate

[thorn lark]

We should kill cdr so we do not have debate like this

[tall torrent]

Is it rly a debate

I only pointed out that CD rate causes everything at the top to not cut CD by as much (in seconds) as people think

You can calculate % CD skip as a multiplier and it is like gunner DR calculation

But the end result is that, let’s say in the case of FotF

With martyr +50% CD rate you get 20s

With FotF’s % CD skip that normally does 6s, it becomes 4s

[analog yacht]

My point is that looking at the seconds is missing the forest for the trees. It's the same as looking at the DR curios stacking as 80%/64%/51.2%

[tall torrent]

?

The end result of CD that matters is the cooldown in seconds, no?

[analog yacht]

The end result of CD that matters is how often your ability is up

[tall torrent]

Which is the cooldown in seconds, no?

[analog yacht]

If you have an ability that you use nearly off-cooldown, the number of times you get to cast that ability in a set time-frame is directly tied to effective cooldown rate. Like if you're casting fotf off-cooldown to burst elites you get 2 per minute. Introduce +100% CD rate and you get 4 per minute. Add in 20% refund on those elite kills and you're getting 5 per minute. For the sake of the example throw on the 12% from curios and you get 5.9/min

[turbid ibex]

what if i throw in some beer

[tall torrent]

yea this is all well & good but ultimately if ur using it off cooldown the #1 thing you think about is the actual cooldown in seconds

[analog yacht]

If you only take the 20% cd skip then you get 2.5/min

[analog yacht]

How so? Casts/minute can increase linearly even as the seconds off CD 'diminish'
Going from 30 seconds to 25 seconds only takes you from 2/min to 2.4/min. Going from 15 to 10 takes you from 4/min to 6/min

[void dragon]

question: does DBshotgun needs on the motion or Longshot? or can it take covering fire?

[analog yacht]

If seconds off cooldown didn't "diminish" then ability up-time would increase exponentially. Another 5 seconds off of 10 would take you from 6/min to 12/min

[tall torrent]

because if ur using it off cooldown, the most direct thing you're thinking isn't "I can use this X times per minute", it's "I get to use this every X seconds"

because as soon as ur not using smth immediately off cooldown, this "effective cooldown" concept crumbles

take FotF and shroud for example (both have % CD skip)

u don't always have 1 big guy u want to use it on, whenever the cooldown becomes ready

[turbid ibex]

same tbh

[hearty panther]

even with FotF and with shout my concern isnt "use this as many times as possible in a small window" but rather "maintain the buff uptime as close to 100% as i can"

[analog yacht]

Using the ability off cd is just the most bare example. What effective cd rate actually means is "while this ability is on CD, I get X seconds off for every second that passes"

[thorn lark]

That's the same argument made by Tanner, interestingly.

[analog yacht]

Before you introduce stacking other effects unrelenting fury could similarly read "... gain +25% CDR for 24 seconds."

or even "... gain 1.25x ability regen speed until your next charge" to account for stacking

[tall torrent]

this model also is inaccurate because FotF getting 2 charges

I don't plan on changing the CD section following this logic you're proposing, it's just not convincing enough

[analog yacht]

Yeah I mean simplified analogies can only go so far

[analog yacht]

To account for that this theoretical version would add another 24s instead of refreshing

[tall torrent]

for "use immediately off CD whenever possible" this model holes up decently well

[turbid ibex]

complexified analogies when?

[analog yacht]

but again, simplified analogy

[tall torrent]

however that "use immediately off CD whenever possible" prefix doesn't represent ability usage that well

why is discord sending me 3 ping notif sounds when I'm not getting pinged anywhere wtf

[turbid ibex]

sorry that was me 3:

oopsie

[tall torrent]

barrel thyself

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1075782743285301308/1448329868491100252/supra.gif

[turbid ibex]

only ifi you get barreled too

:3

[analog yacht]

Again the using ability off CD is partially an example because it makes it the most obvious.

The thing that it actually represents is "X seconds of cooldown per second"

[tame lodge]

Barrelling yourself but without damaging the cylinder
It's very important that the cylinder remains unharmed

[analog yacht]

With just IoD you get 2s/second. Add in the 20% cd skip and the effective cd/second is 2.5 seconds per second

[analog yacht]

Like a similar thing that you're thinking about in combat is "I kill that enemy in 3 hits"
The fact that changing that from 3 to 2 takes +50% damage, but then 2 to 1 an additional +150% doesn't mean that damage has diminishing returns

[tall torrent]

yea but again, like I said above, the most direct thing you're thinking isn't "I can use this X times per minute", it's "I get to use this every X seconds", not to mention that you're not always using ability immediately off CD

it's just not an argument convincing enough for me to change that section

[stable socket]

aren't these two mathematically identical? it's just different ways to say the same thing

(because there's 60s in a minute)

[tall torrent]

if ur using ability as soon as it's off CD, yes

otherwise, no

and practically speaking, there's too much of that "otherwise" for this model to hold up

[stable socket]

if you're not using ability as soon as it's off CD, does CDR matter at all? just wait longer and it'll be back

[tall torrent]

yes, take example of FotF

you're unlikely to continuously using FotF off CD if you already have high atk speed and you're mainly fighting ranged elites or ragers with relic blade

but you will continuously use FotF off CD vs crushers, bulwarks and bosses

there're different phases where ability is used more or less often

[stable socket]

right, so from what you're saying, CDR matters for FotF only in situations when you're using it off cooldown

[analog yacht]

cdr matters in-so-far as the ability is up when you need it to be

[tall torrent]

this concept of "X uses per min" as an effective cooldown rate does hold up for "use as soon as it's off CD" cases

[stable socket]

yeah, you only get value from CDR when it turns "i don't have the ability when i need it" to "i do have the ability when i need it", but if the situations in which you need to use the ability are less frequent than the skill's natural cooldown then you never need CDR

[analog yacht]

This still applies even if you aren't using it off cd

[tall torrent]

it however doesn't match this though

[stable socket]

it's like TDR, which only has value when you take damage, and there are different phases in the game where TDR is needed more or less often. but when you measure how useful TDR is to your build you're normally looking at the high-pressure part of the game where you're taking a bunch of damage and actually need it

[tall torrent]

I still think considering CD's end result as "CD in seconds" is more intuitive

hence the "diminishing returns" writeup

[stable socket]

e.g. for CDR, if high-pressure situations are all so short that you can never get two ability casts in the same "high-pressure window", then CDR is useless

[analog yacht]

Like if your gun takes 6 bullets to kill, then the first +20% damage reduces that to 5 btk, but for the next reduction you need a total of +50%
Same way reducing your CD from 60 to 50 is +20% cooldown rate but 60 to 40 is +50%

[stable socket]

but if you can get two casts in the same fight with CDR and only one without then CDR has given you 100% more utility from your ability

[analog yacht]

yeah and that's similar to damage breakpoints

Getting further hit-to-kill reductions require exponentially more damage same way further second-off-cooldown reductions require exponentially more CD rate

And especially with fotf having a 2nd charge you have a lot of leeway with when you cast it and it still being effectively "off cooldown"

[stable socket]

the closest analogue to CDR (imo) is attack speed. if you start with a weapon that swings once per second and you add 50% attack speed, you get 1.5 attacks per second (i.e. 0.667s between attacks). if you add another 50% attack speed, you get 2 attacks per second (i.e. 0.5s between attacks).

so if you care about "how many seconds does it take me to attack" then attack speed has diminishing returns because the first 50% attack speed brings you from 1.0 to 0.667, i.e. 0.33 reduction, whereas the second 50% attack speed brings you from 0.667 to 0.5, i.e. 0.167 seconds.

but if you care about "how many swings can i do in some amount of time" then attack speed is linear

the reason why i view it this way is because in a high-pressure engagement of X seconds, you can only get a certain number of casts off, and so whether or not CDR lets you hit the breakpoint of "i can cast one more time" is what is important. the part that's weird is that all high-pressure engagements have different lengths, and sometimes casting more can shorten an engagement even more

[analog yacht]

^

Like yeah you're not attacking non-stop same way you're not always casting ability off cooldown

[tall torrent]

atk speed actually not a good analogy cuz of this game's way of doing it

[analog yacht]

but that doesn't really make it diminshing returns (setting aside that +50% AS in darktide isn't actually that)

[stable socket]

ok... shooting speed? fire rate? idk

[tall torrent]

firerate would be fine for constant firerate weapons yea

[analog yacht]

just consider actual attack speed instead of the darktide fake attack speed

[tall torrent]

I'm still not changing that section tho

viewing CD as X seconds is just far more intuitive

[stable socket]

it's definitely more digestible, yeah

but the thing people sometimes miss is that more CDR gives you less "flat seconds reduction" the more CDR you have, but that's also because your cooldown was already lower thanks to the additional CDR

like, saving 3s on a 60s cooldown is roughly as valuable as saving 1s on a 20s cooldown in high-pressure situations

[tall torrent]

yea it is lower, I never said it's not lower

it's just not as much lower as it would be without CD rate

as CD rate increases, the amount of seconds being cut by the same X% CD skip decreases

[analog yacht]

%dr is also more digestible to people than eHP but people misinterpret %dr which is why you bother listing the eHP

[tall torrent]

DR is simpler because it's all multiplicative and none of the things being multiplied is an inverse value where the denominator can increase

[stable socket]

i dunno about %dr being more digestible - for that one there is only 1 metric that matters, which is "how much more damage can i take if i have %dr"

[tall torrent]

CD rate is being calculated as a denominator where it can go up

you can pop a yellow stim and add 3 to it

[analog yacht]

You can simplify cd rate the same way. "How much more often can I use my ability if I have X cd reduction"

[stable socket]

i mean, yeah... "X casts per Y seconds" and "X seconds per 1 cast" are mathematically identical, it's just that one of them has "diminishing returns" in the sense that the flat number grows less because they're inverses of each other

[analog yacht]

What I'm saying is you could portray any stat as the inverse effect to say it has "diminishing returns" but I don't find it very helpful to view stats that way.

[scenic lance]

Guys do I have enough hud mods to play h40

[analog yacht]

describing all effects in the linear way is the most consistent and useful

[potent talon]

For an axe build what's better tactical or combat?

[hollow ibex]

for a melee heavy investment build, caxe

for a ranged heavy investment build, taxe

[potent talon]

👍

[tame lodge]

Combat

[latent star]

Why that split for the axes?

[hollow ibex]

because that's *generally *the decision tree you go through for axes

[stable socket]

non-juiced combat axe is kinda rough because it's slow and really wants to hit brutal momentum breakpoints to kill 4 trash mobs per swing

[slow spade]

clearly they just need to buff combat axe so we don't need to choose

[hollow ibex]

get in line

scriers gaze is due for another buff

[slow spade]

smh still waiting for revolver buff #8

[tame lodge]

Dude
Another combat Axe buff

And you break the game

(again)

[latent star]

And tacaxe doesn't need buffs to hit it's breakpoints, or it's just so fast one hit breakpoints don't matter?

[tame lodge]

You also put Scum with Combat Axe at top 1 class

[hollow ibex]

it matters less

you can afford two-shotting scab bruisers

which is going to make caxe feel realllly bad

[latent star]

Makes sense.

Thanks.

I've been using power sword on my ranged build, it's painfully slow but also means idc if I get horde swarmed. Will try tacaxe instead to see how it compares.

[hollow ibex]

taxe is much safer

just less damage than psword ofc

[ember halo]

If using double barrel shotty, is it best to aim then fire both shells at once, or two seperate?

I’ve been messing around in the grinder and it’s kinda similar from what I can telll

[hollow ibex]

Usually just one

[slate valve]

I’m sad there’s no plasma pistol for the vet

[ember halo]

Honestly, that should 100% be a thing.

Perfect for that chain sword plasma pistol commissar look

[errant carbon]

Just Two More Years

[drowsy perch]

trying to use the plasma gun in darktide after using the sm2 one is hard

[elfin orchid]

i dont think ive ever heard using plas gun described as hard

[drowsy perch]

its just really weird

and also just kills you if it overheats

instead of just. being unable to shoot

[stable socket]

as far as i know, you never really use the charged shots

the "proper" way to use it is to just spam hipfire, which (iirc) is as accurate as the charged version but has more dps and can never kill you

[hollow ibex]

yeh

[stable socket]

idk if the game telegraphs this well, but you can "quell" the plasma heat with the special action (causes minor toughness damage) instead of reloading (which clears all heat but takes 3 business days)

[slate valve]

Which is sad because I wanna charge shots and gamble with my life for BIG BOOM all the time

[stable socket]

there's nothing stopping you from doing it!

[slate valve]

It takes a fortnight(the term of phrase not the game) to charge though

For the time being, I’m sticking with my bolt pistol and chainsword

[lunar maple]

I love the old faithful skin for las gun in the shop rn

[wild vortex]

fucking FINALLY