veteran-class

[calm shard]

hsword so cool it one shots every enemy!

and then you whack away at a crusher like you're mining obsidian in minecraft

[muted peak]

https://tenor.com/view/minecraft-mining-loop-diamonds-gold-gif-21889516

But arent that the ranged weapons's job tho?

[fair shale]

Most ranged weapons arent very good at it

[muted peak]

Trying to fill out the weaknesses of the melee

Hm

[calm shard]

almost every ranged weapon in the game is hot garbage at killing crushers

And of the ones that are good at it most are still a waste of time/ammo

[hollow ibex]

yeah melee is the primary way for killing crushers

[hollow ibex]

though the exceptions are very fun

[peak tusk]

I mainly use Krak grenades

Makes short work of them with just one

[hollow ibex]

yeah kraks are very good against ogryns too

[sullen scarab]

Does anyone have a good Born Leader toughness regeneration for the team meme build?

was thinking about something like this lol

[rustic kite]

Beast of Nurgle after it spawns and instantly gets hit with 16 krak grenades

[sullen scarab]

[hollow ibex]

If you want to do born leader memes you should take MMF with tunnel vision

[sullen scarab]

oh true

let me change that

[hollow ibex]

See if you can take ET as well for even more toughness gen

[sullen scarab]

something like this? Or nah

wondering if I should take off the grenade node for ET

[hollow ibex]

Depends on how hard you’re leaning into the meme

Cuz if you’re going hard take 15 stacks and ET

[sullen scarab]

LOL

ok

let me see

[hollow ibex]

You don’t NEED tac awareness

For ES

Could also drop trench fighter

If you take a Taxe

[sullen scarab]

good idea

i'll take tacaxe

and yeah you're right, executioner stance is off cooldown so fast lol

[hollow ibex]

yeah you can keep it up for a while as long as you're careful

anyway try it and lmk how it goes

[sullen scarab]

ok took grenadier

for the meems if 2 grenades explode

[hollow ibex]

i think grenadier is worth keeping

[sullen scarab]

with out for blood

😂

yeah

[hollow ibex]

yah

[sullen scarab]

Do the vigilant autoguns need rending strikes? I'm trying them out with that build above and the single shot one seems to be one shotting without it lol

[tepid otter]

Think its optional afaik

[sullen scarab]

i was just reading above and saw people mention rending is good on the vigilants, but not sure if its for hte burst fire ones lol

or maybe non marksman focus builds

[void dragon]

Question: would be worth building around covered ops + infiltrate? Is such big damage boost not enough to make it work?

[hollow ibex]

it's not worth it due to infil's shit uptime

[hollow ibex]

yeah vigils benefit from flak

[sullen scarab]

One thing I'm not sure about is how do certain weapons benefit from Rending or not? is it because the 10% just pushes the weapon over just enough to lower a breakpoint?

[hollow ibex]

do you know how ADMs work?

[sullen scarab]

not 100% sure

[void dragon]

Even with stuff like ogryn taunt and other stuns like storm nades? The damage doesn't trigger from that?

[sullen scarab]

oh the armor damage modifier

I've picked up on it kind of

[hollow ibex]

yeah i mean you could try but i just don't think it's worth it

for one thing

on a lot of enemies, it's harder to hit their heads when you're behind them lol

[hollow ibex]

rending is basically a 1:1 increase to a weapon's ADMs

[void dragon]

True, didn't even considered that, specially when I make my veteran quite small

[hollow ibex]

so if a weapon has 10% ADMs against carapace, taking rending strikes increases all ADMs by 10%

which g oes up to 20% for carapace

[sullen scarab]

ahhhh

[hollow ibex]

ADMs above 100 get converted to damage at a 4:1 ratio

[sullen scarab]

OHHH ok

i had no idea on the 4:1 ratio part

[hollow ibex]

so bonus rending raising rending above 100% is very inefficient

though not completely useless

anyway if you want to read more

HOTE guide pins talks about this in more detail

tl;dr is rending worth it? it depends on the weapon

[sullen scarab]

ohhhh

ok I understand now

i see it

vigilant autogun, the one I have, is at 95% against flak

so with rending it goes up to 100%

plus a little lol

so its worth it because then I'm always doing full damage to flak

[hollow ibex]

i thought the flak adms were dropped to 70% 🤔

[sullen scarab]

i'm looking at the stopping power on my gun lol

is that the right one?

[hollow ibex]

uh let me login and take a quick look

[hollow ibex]

idr

[sullen scarab]

for the mk ix

[hollow ibex]

i think ADM would be penetration

if the gun doesn't have the stat you need to look at the info table

[sullen scarab]

yeah

i totally get it now

since the value drops off at range

the 10% is worth it

sicne it boosts it back up again

[hollow ibex]

this should be the flak adm

though it's entirely possible the table is wrong anyway

[serene bough]

can the kind folks of vet chat please stop recovering rations and destroy them instead

please and thank you

[hollow ibex]

no

i like fighting ogryns

[serene bough]

this is serious

its plague ridden food

[hollow ibex]

the ogryn wants it anyway, why starve the ogryn 🙂‍↕️

[serene bough]

he will get corrupted

[hollow ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-no-anyway-gif-18887547

i will put him down myself

[serene bough]

on a more serious note im suprised how tight this community event is

its cool to see

[sullen scarab]

oh yeah 10% damage reduction node or the stamina .25 delay faster one on the marksman tree?

[hollow ibex]

.25 stam regen delay is generally considered better

because stam regen delay is very powerful

[sullen scarab]

makes sense lol

I can feel it on the tacaxe

when i'm spamming the push attacks

[hollow ibex]

yeh

[sullen scarab]

oh yeah for the meme toughness regen build, vraks infantry autogun?

its got great finesse and crit modifiers right

[hollow ibex]

yeah could work, though may have a hard time with carapace

could do helbore if you can find one more point for shocktrooper

or use vigils

[sullen scarab]

Yeah

Vigil with no rending strikes though

[hollow ibex]

it'll be fine once you get mmf stacks going

[sullen scarab]

true lol

wait I can just take shock trooper

instead of kill zone

I'm a genius

[hollow ibex]

oh lol

yeah do that

and take helbore

i'm still not a fan of vigils tbh

[hybrid plover]

basically, ADMs are a multiplier to the base damage value of your weapon, every weapon having a different ADM dependent on the armor class of the enemy

[sullen scarab]

yeah makes sense, I remember now lol

Now to figure out which helbore to use....

i haven't really used them lately

[hybrid plover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kif1SOFRCtQ&t=25s&pp=ygUVaG93IGRvZXMgcmVuZGluZyB3b3Jr this is a good video to explain what rending does and how that relates to ADMs

[hollow ibex]

V is for chads

[sullen scarab]

excellent, thank you

LOL

i do like how fast V shoots

[hollow ibex]

Yeah rykens guide in this is excellent

[sullen scarab]

i feel like with the other marks I have trouble with them because they have to ramp up with weight of fire

[hollow ibex]

IV can use partial shots

But I don’t like how it feels

[sullen scarab]

yeah

[hybrid plover]

Ryken is a genuinely underrated DT youtuber imho

[sullen scarab]

Unyielding/Carapace, Weight of Fire/Surgical on the MK V?

i'm subbing to him

[hollow ibex]

That’s what I use

It’s very funny

[sullen scarab]

I heard his singaporean accent so I know the guide is going to be good

[hollow ibex]

Yeah I’m not a fan of his thematic content but his research is good

[sullen scarab]

ok time for hilarity

only sadness is I couldn't take covering fire for even more funny regen

[hybrid plover]

He also explains a little quirk about Uncanny Strike that a lot of people don't know

[obtuse finch]

Can anyone point me to any good builds that use the AK?

I've heard it's very good.

[hybrid plover]

AK?

[obtuse finch]

The uhhh

new Autogun variant that looks like it's part of the Kalshnikov line

[hollow ibex]

Agri IAG?

[obtuse finch]

Yes!

Again, heard it is very good

no idea if the hype is real or not

I've been using plasma for too long. Need to switch up my build

[sullen scarab]

i like how meaty the agripinna is

oh the braced autogun agripinna right

[obtuse finch]

oh. i need mastery level 10. shit

[sullen scarab]

space ak....

[obtuse finch]

what're dumpstats on the braced autogun?

/ any good builds with it?

[sullen scarab]

dump mobility

[obtuse finch]

got it

also xichun mentioned

!

[sullen scarab]

best hierarch

[obtuse finch]

this is true

[rancid dragon]

Could Somone help me with marked for death and long bomb?

[sullen scarab]

i'm pretty sure if you take the executioner stance build it will be hilarious

is long bomb the skill where you have to kill someone with a grenade from like 40 meters away

[rancid dragon]

It just says hit 8 enimes without it bouncing

[sullen scarab]

oh ok yeah for that one

pick a level with a bridge or a subway tunnel

and just chuck the grenade super high in the air and try to have it airburst

there's that one level where you have to just hold position on the bridge while the enemies come across

and any of the subway tunnel ones work well for that

@obtuse finch

you can run something like this for the space AKs

[rancid dragon]

Then how dose it hit ppl?

[sullen scarab]

just hit executioner's stance and hold m1 lol

[sullen scarab]

The grenade explodes in the air and the explosion hits 8 people

you need to like angle it so the grenade explodes in teh air and the explosion hits the 8 people

so it can't like explode obviously too high

just need to stand super far away and throw it at an angle where it arcs down into the enemy mob in the distance

that's why the bridge and subway tunnel areas are best for it, since they're super long, no roof to hit, and the enemies spawn far away in a large mob and come at you

[rancid dragon]

I’m on console

[tepid otter]

Condolences

[rancid dragon]

Why?

It’s not bad

Still enjoying the game

[tepid otter]

Deepest sympathies

[rancid dragon]

I don’t understand

[sullen scarab]

that was for the space ak build, not grenade

just get a good angle and hook it in

you'll get it

[tepid otter]

wish infantry las had more oompf in harder difficulties

[sullen scarab]

yeah same lol

really miss the launch days where infantry las was goated

[tepid otter]

shiii, is it doodoo now compared to back then

[hollow ibex]

at least helbore is good now

[obtuse finch]

tHANKS

oh caps

what blessings do i put on it?

[sharp epoch]

me when I kill 90% of elites on havoc

[obtuse finch]

any melee that goes well with braced autogun

[sullen scarab]

I just looked at your machinegun helbore build and i'm running that lmao

[sullen scarab]

Flak/Maniac, Deathspitter/Firefrenzy

although you can swap one of them to unyielding if you want to gun down bosses/reapers

[obtuse finch]

thanks!

[sullen scarab]

I think it actually already has a pretty crazy modifier for maniacs/unyielding, so you can juice it

also with that build, that's a pretty standard template build so you can run any melee, but power sword 6 is always strong since you can just kill crushers or anything really with it

Power sword 6, Rashad Combat Axe, and MK VII tactical axe are the best ones

for all arounder work

rashad and tactical axe go well with the space AK imo since they're super easy to use so you can zoom around being rambo lol

https://tenor.com/view/rambo-first-blood-gif-23989356

[hybrid plover]

an arbitrator running off from the team in high havoc?

more likely than you think!

[sullen scarab]

[hybrid plover]

i'm so sick of it OTL

[sullen scarab]

Hell even in Aurics they're always running off. I don't know where they're going.

[tepid otter]

Reminded me of a dialogue my vet had with an arby

[hybrid plover]

IT WAS GOING SO WELL AAAA

[sullen scarab]

Like whenever I play Arbites I'm smacking down whatever is attacking my team so they can shoot things in peace

But whenever I see a pub Arbites they're rushing off like a stealth knife zealot

[hybrid plover]

I

Do not understand it

[sullen scarab]

Like the level isn't going to finish faster if you run off on your own

[wild vortex]

main character syndrome

most commonly seen in stealth knife zealots

whom I just queue dodge on principle now

[hybrid plover]

I've noticed it more from arbitrators than stealth zealots in havoc at least

[sullen scarab]

Same in Auric, I don't see stealth knife speed run zealots anymore they're all Arbitors now lmao

[wild vortex]

Arbi has even more failure prevention built in I guess

at least a Zealot you can kinda excuse that nonsense behavior, because they're built around solo play and have such little team synergy. Arbi on the other hand is so beneficial to their team if they're not shitters

[sullen scarab]

yeah, thats' what drives me up the wall

[hybrid plover]

I would not say zealot is built around solo play tbh

[sullen scarab]

I had a weird ass game last night with my friend, we were playing on the event level, and the 2 arbitors on our team were constantly just running ahead, and for some fucking reason, they decided to grab the skull by doing the puzzle????

we were on the water purification level where you have to break the demon eyes at the end, and they decided to do the jumping puzzle

without ever saying a word

then they somehow died while doing the puzzle while me and my friend had jumped down into the train tracks area and fought offl ike 30000 crushers and mutants

we were so confused on how they even managed to die lmao

[wild vortex]

Idk I don't really see any kind of team synergy outside of book

[rancid dragon]

Guys

[wild vortex]

Kinda what put me off playing shouty

[rancid dragon]

I had a perfect idea on what the next class might be

Care to hear it?

[hybrid plover]

good talent for revives and every aura is actually very impactful for the team

especially beacon in havoc

they don't have as much utility as the other classes but what they do have still helps a lot.

[wild vortex]

Eh, I guess. Low bar though

[narrow widget]

vet 3 the prequel

[rancid dragon]

Nah

Dommy mommy callidus assassin

Extra thicc

[dapper coyote]

A Sniper, tunnel vision, kill one specialist and get netted

And die

Then rage quit when they're get disturbed from their scoping all match long

All it takes is one chaff smacking him

O n e

[spark helm]

:^)

[orchid hemlock]

Me seeing Vets on Damnation unloading an entire clip on 2 poxwalkers

[gentle lake]

anyone got a good vet build

[elder vessel]

Flashbangs my beloved

[narrow widget]

ur in the wrong place vro all these v*t mains do is complain about their class smh smh

[dapper coyote]

Mag dumping? That's usual lmao

Vrak IAG or any Braced, just go brrr

[hollow ibex]

man this event takes fking forever to grind

[tidal tartan]

Corruption damage healer, Shield of Contempt giving you 60% damage resist if you're nearby and take health damage, better revive talent, utility nades. He can't pump toughness into friendlies like vet or arbiter but especially with book he's a nice support

[dapper coyote]

Chat, what would be the dump stat for plasma gun?
And what blessing should i pursue?

Im going to try this slag-through-the-planet o gun

[austere mica]

@tired egret

This

[dapper coyote]

Lmao

69 thermal 71 charge

[warm schooner]

much brunt farming

[dapper coyote]

What about the blessings?

[austere mica]

Idk

I hate plasma

[dapper coyote]

Lmao, just take anything guess

[timid cedar]

hi i'm mostly play with random with no coms
is this build already good?
https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a0295f18-812c-48fc-95ea-8cb96db790de/ws-rashad-revolver

[orchid hemlock]

omg a decent vet build from GL

we did it everyone, our hard work paid off 😭

[hollow ibex]

only suggestion would be to take longshot instead of OM

but otherwise this looks great

[rancid dragon]

Good night everyone

I’ll see you in 4 hours

[willow prairie]

one in a kerillian

[narrow widget]

instead of revive speed/ult cooldown on curios maybe consider taking gunner resistance or smth more ubiquitously useful
might also benefit from swapping agile engagement with fully loaded considering revolver has so little ammo
but yeah aside from that it looks decent

[willow prairie]

ult cooldown is non negotiable on any build

revive speed is good if you're playing havoc but below you should be fine

[wild vortex]

Agile Engagement is, like, one of the best nodes on the right side...

[narrow widget]

for vet not as much imo

I'm off the ult cooldown train

4% is a pittance

[willow prairie]

I mean depend if you're using exe or voc

you don't need it on exe tbf

[narrow widget]

[wild vortex]

perma 25% damage for just playing the game with the keystone

[willow prairie]

who told you to get born leader btw

[wild vortex]

idk what to tell you if you disagree boss

[willow prairie]

I just want to talk to him

[narrow widget]

idk I like born leader

more toughness is more toughness

[willow prairie]

it does nothing essentially

[narrow widget]

only really matters if it's affecting breakpoints which revolver usually hits already

[willow prairie]

coherency work by "chain link" or whatever you want to call it

so coherency radius is not useful either

giving up 25% damage for nothing is wild

[slow sky]

i love pulling off a clutch that only happened cuz there was always 1 person DCed
and after the fact, the taunt just didnt work on the chaos spawn so i couldnt grab anyone else, and then i ended up back where i started cuz the ogryn got nuked by the shotguns

[somber gyro]

oh boy talent trees got reworked

[bold sierra]

usually you're basically the only one that has a long ranged gun in Havoc lmao, Veteran things

[sharp epoch]

melee elites too

[slow sky]

ok ig ill kill myself

[wild vortex]

wha, how'd that happen

[slow sky]

died of death

[austere mica]

Like 4 hits in a half second

[glacial ferry]

someone didn't push before they weapon swapped next to a climb

[willow prairie]

skill issue

[sharp epoch]

the horde hit him at the same time

you can see him get corrupted and bam ded

[wild vortex]

Damn

[tepid otter]

did you miss your shot as well, i think you hit the fence lmao

[sharp epoch]

the last shot didnt go off cause he died before he could shoot

[tepid otter]

was he trying to hit something below, i cant see very well

[slow sky]

it was a tox bomber below and you can hear the kill

[tepid otter]

ahh, nah. my speakers is broken atm, I couldn't hear anything

[cunning haven]

you might have some luck searching for builds on gameslantern

[warm schooner]

dunno man, the most popular vet build on gameslantern uses a chainsword

[tepid otter]

whats wrong with the chord

[cunning haven]

id suggest you try make a build yourself and posting it here. people here very helpful.

[meager echo]

bombers are very annoying units. They throw bombs from places that you can't shoot them. If you familiar with spawn point, you will notice that. Map like chasm station, in 2nd event where you hack the thing in the middle of the room. If Bombers spawn on top of the medicate above, you can't even shoot them, you have to wait for them to jump down.

[distant mural]

Gameslantern is poopoo dont do that

[cunning haven]

do you use recon lasgun?

[distant mural]

Well exe stance is really fun

Would be good for heavy bolter bolter lasgun or laspistol

Also recon las i guess

Also kraks are really good now

[vestal olive]

Is on your toes really that good?

It looks... dubious honestly

thinking about just taking more toughness instead..

[meager echo]

I think out for blood is better than both of them. I think 1 +25 flat toughness in middle tree is enough.

Usually you only take, confirm killed or out for blood at the top. I take both of them, i don't take any keystone sub node for both FT and WS.

[vestal olive]

i have out for blood. and i have the +25 toughness node in the center branch (to get ogryn + montrosity damage)

uh hold up let me just make the tree

[tepid otter]

I usually just take WS on its own without any of its sub nodes

[meager echo]

The red one is depend on what you like.
The green one is weapon specific like DB build.

[mortal aspen]

[vestal olive]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a03644a8-8397-4249-b3de-25c8abf222c7/temp-9

i also sometimes take shovel or power sword

[meager echo]

Necromancer vet is best vet, trust me

[vestal olive]

but those are the talents

[tepid otter]

Necromancer?

[vestal olive]

but ive also been considering taking long shot as well

[meager echo]

I would replace the WS sub node for a grenade node. I would take tinkerer, but i'm not sure if it's better than grenadier.

[tepid otter]

Iz gud

[vestal olive]

yeah i dont one hit dreg gunners sometimes with a headshot

and that makes me upset

[tepid otter]

Whats your secondary

[steep flower]

It is

[vestal olive]

plasma

they'll have the tiniest sliver of hp

at 0% heat

[steep flower]

Unless you use shredders then no

[tepid otter]

whats your blessings and perks on it

[vestal olive]

everything is here

[tepid otter]

in my experience, plasma is like ramping dmg anyway so i usually take more than 2 shots to kill gunners

[wanton dune]

Not sure if it's a bug or what I wish I could send clips on here but is Vet dodge speed supposed to increase to an amount where you can essentially fly around the map with it?

Just started playing vet since the rework and as I go through a match his dodge speed just ends up being extremely high

[tepid otter]

i dont think I've had that

[wanton dune]

Yea tryna find a site i could upload the clip but I had one instance my dodge was so fast I went flying off the stairs in archivum

https://streamable.com/gbvzsm

Can get better clips but yea mission starts out normal and while playing its like weapon specialist just keeps building stacks on the dodge speed permanently until it just becomes insane

[warm schooner]

think I've had this happen actually in one of the event missions

it was like the melee benefit of WS was perma on for the rest of the map

[wanton dune]

Yea now you mention it I've only had it in the event too

You can also get that bug where if you charge a heavy swing you can get stuck in the animation when interacting with a ration so I wonder if that's also just getting weapon specialist stuck with a perm stack and then stacking on top etc

[boreal burrow]

Howdy

[tepid otter]

Guten Tag

[dapper coyote]

Ello

[toxic reef]

it's simply one of the potential daily outcomes of the event missions

so you got the boosts from using a stim in the match

[wanton dune]

Ahh okay thank you

[toxic flicker]

Veterans im in need of assistance if it isn't too much trouble

[calm shard]

https://tenor.com/view/trepang-trepang2-check-this-shit-horizon-gif-13349807839715534250

[toxic flicker]

So basically i recently made a vet and played with volley fire until recently and will be trying out shout. My question is about the main weapons. So far I have only enjoyed the recon lasgun (torrent version) the bolt weapons and i hear good things about the plasma. So my question is basically since i have tried every weapon except the plasma is it a skill issue and there is a hidden potential on the other weapons or they are just the best performing? (On a side note i keep seeing that the krak is bad and im at a loss for words and wondering if i should switch)

[toxic reef]

krak is good now

your weapons are probably not maxed out tho

[toxic flicker]

I got all 3 nade nodes if that's relevant

[toxic reef]

or using subpar blessings and perks

all nodes on krak are a bit overkill now, you kill crushers anyway

[toxic flicker]

True but still on malice/heresy they should be able to keep up i think or my teammates are just maxed out idk

[calm shard]

Kraks used to be easily the worst blitz in the game imo

But after this update with Crushers having their health doubled

Kraks were given a damage increase to compensate, as well as a shorter fuze, and you can carry 1 more

So they're actually good now

[toxic flicker]

I heard frag and smokes are really good as well

Depending on the situation and build

[calm shard]

Tinker and Grenadier are not useful on kraks

Tinker is useful in Havoc to make sure it keeps one shotting crushers with the health increase

[toxic flicker]

Noted

[calm shard]

Vet has quite a few melee options that scale with their talents very well more than just coming out of the box good

If you're using kraks you might wanna try out the heavy sword Mk IX

Its one downside is having abysmal carapace damage

[toxic flicker]

I mean the dueling sword looks cool and i wanna try it. Played the shovel only until now

[calm shard]

dueling sword is very strong

[toxic flicker]

Is the shovel viable?

[calm shard]

has kinda mediocre horde clear but excellent single target damage

[calm shard]

Mk1 shovel yes

[toxic flicker]

Crowd control is good

[calm shard]

The folding ones are extremely bad

[slim pulsar]

i just find shovels so boring

[toxic flicker]

Thank you for your input guys! Guess I gotta lvl up weapons as well! Appreciate it

[rancid dragon]

Mornin everyone

[toxic reef]

shovel has become my fav vet weapon

[toxic flicker]

Mornin kriegsmen! How's it going?

[unreal nova]

Smokes is mostly for havoc where shooters are a nightmare. Also turns off NOT Rodin. Shredders, always throw in 2s, deletes everything not armoured.

[rancid dragon]

I’ve had 2 hours of sleep

It’s 6 am

I don’t get home till 8 PM

[toxic flicker]

Awesome! Im on 1 hr of sleep got up in 6am as well

Don't get home till 3 pm and that's only due to specific circumstances otherwise i would be there till 5pm so i feel you! We stand tall in such times, respect!

[toxic flicker]

Wish you all the best! Hope you make the most out of your day !

[rancid dragon]

I’m going to try

[toxic flicker]

I hope you succeed!

[rancid dragon]

Thanks

[bold sierra]

Zarona Combat Shotgun Exec Stance H40. We died tho, cuz our 4th was NOT ready for Havoc 40 lol

[heavy rover]

Shovel slander

[static radish]

Haha shovel go bonk

[bold sierra]

man idk man, the basic shovel doesnt have as much cleave as the green folding shovel, plus green folding shovel's special has pretty damn good carapace dmg + guaranteed stagger even when crusher charges their overhead

the blue folding shovel is dogshit tho

[tall torrent]

the heavy sweep is same cleave
light sweep (tank) on mk3 is 8 cleave but with horrid dmg and meets zero major stagger breakpoints

[calm shard]

yeah I tried using green one

even with serrated blade those lights just do fuck all

and Mk1 shovel is the only one with a good way to stagger enemies

so

[bold sierra]

little lower in dmg but it applies bleed for serrated blade really well. Plus its push-follow combo is pretty good, basically the same cleave as heavy sweep.

[bold sierra]

afaik, light attacks from the 2 marks have the same stagger value, Mk1 does have a decent special stab, but it goes like no dmg + doesnt guarantee stagger on Crusher overheading at time even.

I can special attack with the green folding shovel, guarantee staggering crushers while dealing actual decent dmg

[tall torrent]

it does guarantee

only doesn't when enemies are in stagger immune windows

which is how stagger works in general

[bold sierra]

not as guaranteed as the green folding shovel's special, the green folding shovel special heavy guarantees 100%, I'd know cuz Ive tested it a bunch

[tall torrent]

oh ik

I've tested more than most lol

some atks bypass stagger immune windows

it's not reason enough to justify its horrid dmg & nonexistent major stagger breakpoints tho

[bold sierra]

eh, I let serrated blade does most of the work with Uncanny and stuff anyway.

but I GUESS if you're not taking serrated blade

I suppose it doesnt matter as much. Still, w/ serrated blade, I think it's way better horde-clear than mk1.

[tall torrent]

sapper shovels in general are not great and the folding shovels got gut punched by crusher getting almost 2x their previous health pool

[bold sierra]

you can still 2-hit them pretyt consistently with the special tho, Plus in Havoc 40, you're gonna need 2 of them either way

especially with thrust

hell, even with skullcrusher

[tall torrent]

if u need 2 atks with full charge thrust then it's just not good lol

that ttk is atrocious

part of the same reason TH is not good

[bold sierra]

nah Thammer's a WHOLE different case, it has insane light strikedown dmg, crazy good carapace dmg

[tall torrent]

nah lol TH is similar issues

[bold sierra]

its special isnt really FOR crushers, especially in H40 most of the time

[tall torrent]

with debatably more issues

both are atrocious at mixed horde dps with bad major stagger breakpoints, take 2 or more "big single target atk" to kill a single crusher, with that "big single target atk" doing smth to restrict player movement

TH just has a boss dps gimmick and looks cooler

but they have almost the same core problems

calling TH's light strikedown dmg insane is a bit of a reach, it isn't

not "crazy good carapace dmg" either

[calm shard]

th light failing to consistently one shot bruisers

let alone do good enough damage to touch crushers

[tall torrent]

people really be gaslighting themselves it's crazy

[midnight wyvern]

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-movie-fall-falling-meme-gif-24396824

[calm shard]

thammer damage into cara is also bad even with special

[midnight wyvern]

yea lol

[calm shard]

and I play exclusively marty zealot with it because why not

that slow ass attack speed isn't gonna fix itself

[bold sierra]

yeah big disagree there, it's not the easiest to play I'll say but saying it doesnt have good stagger is just odd man. Cuz I play Thammer like almost all the times in H40 and almost everytime I'm 2nd dmg just behind inferno staff

[bold sierra]

yeah idk man, before maybe but now, not at all

even with bruiser getting hp+

ironhelm sure, crucis, no

[tall torrent]

it simply does not have good stagger lol

0.5 maniac impact ADM

excuse me

scoreboard proves insignificantly little on weapon performance, it's at best an unreliable reference point

[bold sierra]

unless they got blue stimm, I've never failed at staggering dreg ragers at all

[thorn lark]

I used the mk3 bolter with exec + mf, it was fun. But I am not sure MF is the way. Has anyone checked if you proce enough stacks by shooting roughly at head level?

[tall torrent]

it does not stagger dreg rager while they're attacking

[tall torrent]

nah it actually does 1 hit bruisers given enough common buffs

[calm shard]

stacking it is not the problem

the problem is the bolter is primarily base damage

well stacking it is kind of a problem given its ammo economy I guess

Just use FT

[tall torrent]

it's just not good dmg when it's not hard hitting enough on single target, and does not cleave enough to hit more than 1 guy most of the time

[thorn lark]

I juiced it with exec, longshot and ff

[bold sierra]

it staggers them just fine, I'm testing in Psykanium right now against Dreg Ragers, you maybe need 2 thrust stacks and headtaker stacks, but for the most parts...there really isnt any melee that can out right stagger them w/o certain synergies or specific special. Dclaw is the only melee that I'd say can counter rager hordes perfectly.

[tall torrent]

there is

a lot actually

[bold sierra]

Plus, chastise helps. Thammer and melees dont exist in a vaccum

[tall torrent]

feels like u never actually tested enough

to be saying this

[bold sierra]

either way, Thammer is staggering them fine to me, no issue

I can bring out a recording if you want

[tall torrent]

TH needs quite substantial str/impact stacking to reach that stagger breakpoint

[bold sierra]

I've tested relic too, yeah it does have better stagger breakpoints against them but well, not like that's everything

[tall torrent]

2-thrust as a requirement vs a group of ragers all attacking isn't a consistent base

besides stagger falloff in cleave being a thing

a big 2-handed hammer should not be bad at stagger like this

not to mention TH having atrocious maniac ADM as well

[thorn lark]

you can counter them reliably with a taxe

[tall torrent]

quite literally the worst designed melee in the game bar none

[bold sierra]

yeah but that's just its special, I'll admit that. Still, there are other points of comparison

it's still single target

[tall torrent]

no

not just special

again, it's looking like u did not test nearly enough

[bold sierra]

staggering singular rager isnt a big feat, it's still pretty limited to its single-target aspect

[tall torrent]

just like TH
except TH needs way more stacking to achieve the same thing with worse defence stats, atrocious mixed horde dps, self-stun mechanic, slow carapace TTK

all that for a boss skip gimmick that's essentially a flex and doesn't come up in relevance most of the time

TH can't even power light overhead 1 hit kill ragers lolol

gotta do a heavy and stun self for almost whole second

great weapon design fatshark

it's one thing to like TH
it's another entirely to call it good

[bold sierra]

i aint gonna say Thammer is the best at staggering Dreg Ragers, probably the worst enemy that it can go against, but it really isnt the end of the wolrd, I know for a fact that it knock maulers and scab ragers like ragdolls, doubly so if you decide to go hammerblow, which is great

[calm shard]

yeah thammer is pretty on the low end as far as rager stagger goes

[bold sierra]

crushers too, you can kite whole horde of them with just staggering their asses with Thammer

[bold sierra]

dreg ones yes, but scabs nah, those guys are nothing to thammer

[dense river]

How do you guys use the recon lasgun? I am using the middle one with high damage and once I start shooting I cant even tell what I am looking at because the las fire goes everywhere and if I tap fire then its not really fast enough.

[calm shard]

I would consider like...this to be the baseline for a weapon that's good at staggering ragers

it should be an easily accessible attack that staggers at LEAST one rager in a quick timeframe

[bold sierra]

but if you got Hammerblow on Thammer, it staggers everything and knock them on their ass

[tall torrent]

nah the standard is rashad's push atk

[bold sierra]

tbh that isnt even that different from me testing Thammmer to 5 ragers

almost none

[tall torrent]

it wouldn't be this as standard if game wasn't spamming melee elites 24/7
but it is what it is

[bold sierra]

yeah we can talk about dreg rager stagger breakpoint all we like, but Havoc shits them out of their asses all the time. It doesnt even matter most of the times. Usually your best bet is just pull out your gun and start popping their heads.

[bold sierra]

that's what I do

[calm shard]

wasting a blessing slot on a weapon that is starved for consistent dmage just to stagger ragers

is not a halmark of a weapon that has good stagger

[bold sierra]

Martyr helps a lot, it really aint that big of a loss

[thorn lark]

at that point, just shoot them

[bold sierra]

I've only been playing Martyr in H40 these days, it helps with a lot of dmg breakpoints, and you're no glass cannon

[tall torrent]

dreg rager being low mass of 4, the standard is stagger 3 at once at this point

anything below gotta be doing smth special to justify

[calm shard]

like the heavy sword having bromentum and outright one shotting ragers to the head

that's pretty neat

[thorn lark]

on a vet?

[tall torrent]

tac axe gets a pass for dodge template override

[calm shard]

yeah overhead heavy has absurdly high maniac ADM

It one shots with them with...zero damage boosts active

or well only passive ones

just bop em on the head

[thorn lark]

ok that's one not moving in the psykh

[calm shard]

oh great immediately out comes a cope

[thorn lark]

when you have 5 or 6 coming at you hmm

[calm shard]

luckily I actually did test heavy sword just earlier! when talking about weapons that could stagger them

one sec

[bold sierra]

w/ Marytrdom you'd just be knocking EVERYTHING down w/o even much of a dmg loss. Hell i'm not even hitting Thrust2 most of the times. And you can stagger Crushers out of their overhead stagger immunity state too.

and imo you dont need this

I just shoot them

[tall torrent]

this is a risky bet that counts on them not attacking (therefore not getting the massive stagger reduction they normally would have) to be able to get stagger off

[tall torrent]

on top of having to use ability for the initial stagger proc when most good weapons don't need to use ability to stagger

[bold sierra]

when theyre not attackign, they just fall down, when they are, they get staggered

[tall torrent]

and the maniac dmg is atrocious

[bold sierra]

i mean you typically dont bring Thammer for the maniac dmg lmao.

it aint great tho, but doesnt matter

[calm shard]

could be much faster if I was willing to gamble for a crit sweeping heavy to just one shot 4 of them tbh

[bold sierra]

with martyrdom, it is not bad

[tall torrent]

yea it's a gimmick weapon with a gimmick that doesn't matter most of the time and sucks everywhere else ik that alrdy

[calm shard]

or it was a melee build and not my shotgun exe build

[bold sierra]

it 100% sucks against like 1 enemy lol

but your metric is different from mine ig

[tall torrent]

yea

it's just not good

idk in which world needing 2 powered full thrust heavy atks (more often 3 cuz u might not get both atks full thrust) to kill 1 single crusher while stunning self for 2 whole seconds is considered good

[hybrid flame]

A world where higher difficulties are more difficult?

[ocean bramble]

how come? does the mk1 special have nutty stagger i wasn't noticing/are the lights that much better? i was absentmindedly testing the shovel earlier and enjoyed the mk1 more but didn't really know why

[calm shard]

mk1 has better damage across the board and better moveset

special is significantly better than the folding ones because it's an easy quick way to stagger melee elites

[ocean bramble]

hm. gotcha, ty

[calm shard]

push attack spam is much more consistent single target damage than the folding shovels do

and the heavy sweeps have more reliable damage throughout hordes

[thorn lark]

I was looking for another melee weapon to try again on my exe+mf build, but I fear i will need to invest one point in TFD, whereas I can not take it with a knife or taxe tho

[tall torrent]

did u play falchion yet

[thorn lark]

yeah, mk2b

not a fan of the other one

[tall torrent]

I think falchion can get away without using TFD

[thorn lark]

I do like it a lot

[tall torrent]

mk1 is the better variant

2b got cucked in stats

[thorn lark]

???

[tall torrent]

yea

[thorn lark]

you said 2b was superior two weeks ago

[tall torrent]

back when stagger was bugged

but

since that got patched

[thorn lark]

rashad sidegrade

wHAT?

[tall torrent]

2b has only 1 atk that can stagger rager

which is energized heavy2

energized heavy1 can't even break rager combo cuz no stagger reduction ignore

completely fked

[thorn lark]

the combo is l1 > h2?

[tall torrent]

for single target ez loop yes

u can also do push + L + (L1 + H2)

but it's not like it matters much cuz mk1 just mogs it

even tho mk1 also not great

[thorn lark]

🙁

[calm shard]

hsword doesn't super need it

[tall torrent]

yea unfortunately the falchions are super underbaked

their stats are like

someone filled them with their toes

instead of by hand

halfbaked, rushed to meet a quota

the real "new stuff" promised to vet is actually the arb dlc for us to buy

[thorn lark]

but the mobility is so much nicer than the psword

[tall torrent]

it's same as rashad's

it's not even fast

just avg

[pseudo fiber]

10 months

Let's go

[dapper coyote]

Which Csword should i use?

[thorn lark]

much nice than psword i feel

[tall torrent]

it's identical to rashad
if anything worse than rashad cuz rashad heavy atk's move speed penalty isn't as high

it's just massively underbaked

[calm shard]

can't wait for them to be generationally bad weapons that stay bad forever like the shovels and dclaw sword

[dapper coyote]

I did use Pfalchion they kinda stinky

[tall torrent]

don't let cole catch u saying shovel bad

[thorn lark]

well, i have a problem of dodging too much, so that may explain why i am getting fucked by ''slower'' weapons

[calm shard]

I didn't specify which shovels

[tall torrent]

even tho they are

[calm shard]

I do acknowledge that the mk1 shovel is pretty decent

[tall torrent]

they just uncanny cheese and have ultra mid baseline

[calm shard]

correct

[tall torrent]

nothing remotely close to "good"

[calm shard]

it really is incredible that the shovel has uncanny strike, skullcrusher, decimator

all these absurd turbo strong blessings

just for the best one to be "okay at best"

[hybrid flame]

One day we will have Vet weapons with 3 blessings and it will break shovels

[tall torrent]

decimator got a generational sneak there

[bold sierra]

ok, 2s is just overreaching lol, it's like half a sec at best, or not even. And here I'm using HAMMERBLOW, which you dont even need to do all this. Compared to sth likke the Dueling Sword which you wont guarantee to get Uncanny stacks 100% of the times. It's more or less the same. You either sacrifice some mobility for more stagger, or more mobility for no stagger.

I will say tho this is not realistic scenario. Cuz usually there'd be gazillion ton of traash mobs, I'd rather just heavy attack and stagger crushers through the mix mostly. Save the power special for 1-shot chastise

But again, your metric is different from mine.

[brittle turtle]

cant even use skins

[tall torrent]

yea TH's TTK is not good
u were getting hit too and kept dodging back

it was also a very idealistic setup
in a real game while ur getting self stunned multiple other enemies could be attacking u

[bold sierra]

in which ive been in many many times. here's a game of mine among others the other day IF you care to skim through.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lquAPfxiHZo&t=2s

[bold sierra]

tbf, that was mostly me, same with DS there, realistically there would be barely as much space to move around in actual maps

most of the "clutches" you see of DS are in big ass maps like Throneside

personally in tight places, I'll take extra stagger any day

[tall torrent]

u also don't need martyr

for TH

IJ is just better

[rancid dragon]

Bonjur

[tall torrent]

and yea the practical case is that it's not a reliable 2 hit on crushers

just not good

[rancid dragon]

How’s everyone

[azure narwhal]

good, how goes it for you, comrade

[tall torrent]

they should have buffed most of those "1 big single target atk" weapons to get closer to the buffed crusher hp

[rancid dragon]

I am 2 hours into the day (8 am)
It is becoming increasingly obvious my 2 hours of sleep isn’t good

I’m running on green tea

Dreams of my future

[azure narwhal]

as it should be

[bold sierra]

I tested it, IJ does not give me one-shot chastise Crusher kill in most cases, which is very important for Garden. Plus I have 0 issue with martyrdom, most of the times they barely go through my toughness, and it's wayyyy better atk speed buff

[rancid dragon]

And the hopes fat shark will re release the krieg helmet with the filter

[azure narwhal]

there is clarity to be found in suffering

[rancid dragon]

Oh ya

I’m also almost to lunch

I hear it’s chicken patties today

[azure narwhal]

Lucius Mk IIIa Death's Head?

[rancid dragon]

Also had a jersey mikes

[rancid dragon]

I think…I have the green one rn

[azure narwhal]

yes, it's the same but green in store rn

[rancid dragon]

This helmet but black

[azure narwhal]

yep

MY EYES

[rancid dragon]

What’s wrong?

[azure narwhal]

krieg cadian amalgamation

[rancid dragon]

It’s just green krieg

(The backpack hides the cadian)

[azure narwhal]

right because you cannot tell otherwise

[rancid dragon]

I wish this outfit was in black

[azure narwhal]

just poking fun dw

[rancid dragon]

I like the little cape on the waist

[tall torrent]

omg lol having to spec martyr + FotF to kill crusher well is crazy
I thought it was better than that
guess it's even worse than I thought

[rancid dragon]

Barley use this fit tho bc it’s only got one glove

How am I to keep my hands warm without another glove

[azure narwhal]

i've always ran piety with thammer tbh

[azure narwhal]

true

[rancid dragon]

Ya

I mainly just use krieg fit

[azure narwhal]

im just waiting for 143rd to return

[rancid dragon]

With hellbore and a axe

[rancid dragon]

?

Show the fit!

[azure narwhal]

Krieg 143rd

[rancid dragon]

Oh ya Somone said this photo was wholesome on Reddit

When I became baby kriegsman when I was only level 6

[rancid dragon]

Ah the French kriegsman

[azure narwhal]

it's either wholesome or quite hilarious, depending on how you take it

[rancid dragon]

I was just happy the krieg was back

Although based of my last Reddit post

I don’thave a soul

Bc I asked if it was wrong to sell it so the krieg fit came back

And well

It came back

. . .

Anyone know how to re buy a soul?

[azure narwhal]

mcdonalds

[rancid dragon]

No

The allways get my order wrong

I want fat shark to let me dule wield trench shovels

I’m starting to get scared of what SpinKah is gonna say

He’s been typing for a while…

He stopped typing

@azure narwhal I’m scared

[bold sierra]

you can kill Crusher witj full Thrust Chastise if you got like exact 20 IJ stacks + Sustained Asssult stacks + Against all Odds stacks. But you dont need all that with Martyrdom.

Either way, afaik only like Eviscerator Mk10's heavy rev (or Mk2 heavy2 rev) and Chainaxe (with Thrust) heavy rev can 1-shot Crusher w/ Chastise, with IJ and the like...but they come with other kinks, like less boss dmg

Full Thrust + Uncanny stacks DS only get like 60%ish or sth of Crusher health with Chastise and full Martyrdom stacks lmao. So like, idk about you, it's still insane dmg with Thammer given the Crusher's increased HP

[tall torrent]

I don't think it's good enough given it's so much buildup for an atk that only hits 1 guy at a time and if any of that buildup isn't available it misses the breakpoint
havoc has too many changing variables for a specific 1-hit breakpoint with that many conditionals attached to be good

[bold sierra]

it makes a hell of a difference if there's garden, cuz if you dont hit that 1-shot, you're gonna see that Crusher pop back up to 100% health lmao, and Final Toll if that ever come back

[tall torrent]

nah purple enemies don't get healed

[bold sierra]

and it's not like we're just talking ONLY meleeing either so there are things you have to compensate for no crud

[bold sierra]

the other way around

I mean

purple all the way to the back

cant do shit about them

gotta kill this one crsuher getting healed, etc...

[tall torrent]

it's still far too many conditionals to push for FotF

weapon itself not good enough

[bold sierra]

then all of my havoc games must have been in my head or sth idk

[tall torrent]

nah what I mean is
unless ur in solo, it's just not that relevant when there're that many conditionals to meet for the breakpoint

[bold sierra]

grant you, I HAVE played chorus

[bold sierra]

yeah which is why I like martyr lol

you only need the stacks

[tall torrent]

and having to play martyr to reach a super conditional breakpoint like that is so sad

weapon itself not good enough

[bold sierra]

thats like...half of the game man, wym

some weapons require some things, it aint that unfathomable cmon

[tall torrent]

it kinda isn't

havoc alrdy not a breakpoint game

and with the talent tree changes in 1.9 the game as a whole is less abt breakpoints now than before

[bold sierra]

I kinda disagree, there are breakpoints that matter, but it's also mostly trying to control the enemies too.

in which stagger can be the name of the game

like hell, I see people jsut straight up die without even struggling cuz they use DS against a few crushers, cuz theyc ant stagger them for shit

[tall torrent]

there're breakpoints that matter but for most weapons they're less abt breakpoints than before because u either got way more dmg (like in the case of vet) where pushing good breakpoints that previously really needed minmax is possible

or in other cases like TH where there're so many conditionals it's just less relevant to build for when u can usually afford to attack twice

[thorn lark]

Wdym

[tall torrent]

literal

[bold sierra]

if they let you attack twice, sure. Goes both ways.

[bold sierra]

and if anything, given the enemy health changes, especially to the crushers, I think certain breakpoitns matter even MORE now, compared to before

[tall torrent]

nah it's just way too many conditionals to meet

[bold sierra]

you keep saying that, but as a havoc-only player, I don't particularly think it's incomprehensibly that many.

I will say, not everyone can play havoc

[tall torrent]

most breakpoints aren't even for crushers

[bold sierra]

there are people that will be overwhelmed, and there are builds that are very low-skill ceilign for those players

[tall torrent]

most breakpoints are for flamers, gunners, etc

i guess there is 1 crusher breakpoint that matters which is krak grenade needing tinkerer

but for zealot no, too many conditionals = not really relevant

[bold sierra]

I truly mean nothing bad, but maybe it's a you thing.

cuz I stg if what you're saying is the way things are, then I must be....the best damn player or sth god damn, and I really dont think so lol

again, I dont mean to insult

cuz we're both playing the same game I hope

[tall torrent]

no, just saying the weapon is not good enough, and that needing that many conditionals to do a breakpoint in a game mode that's not about breakpoints is not super relevant

[thorn lark]

MFG https://youtu.be/w6zmY1EJYdE?si=hN0v6IfHTk0dtlKX

[tall torrent]

not watching E

[bold sierra]

needing 4-5 stacks of martyrdom isnt that nuts, that's basically BY DEFAULT if you're playing martyrdom. And given the fact that I keep seeing people PRAISE talents that require certain triggers and kills to get extra dmg (Riposte, Prime Target), in which I don't care for at all...I'm surprised you think that needing a few stacks of martyrdom, or some sustained assult stacks is "too many conditions"

[bold sierra]

dude got terrible takes ngl

[thorn lark]

"antax not good above malice"

[bold sierra]

TERRIBLE

[thorn lark]

Yeah

[tall torrent]

what I meant was
having to play martyr to reach this breakpoint feels bad
and, if not taking martyr, it needs too many conditionals to reach
therefore it's not a good breakpoint

[tepid otter]

is event just fucked atm, it runs fine for like the better part of the match and then my latency just drops and everything is just lagging in place

[bold sierra]

the latter part is what I meant by that. Typically you're always gonna be around enough enemies that give you max Against all Odds stacks anyway, sustained assult is ez to get, headtaker too...like 3 at best, and that's with me playing PIETY

not to mention, you're probably gonna get more dmg from auras and keystones from other classes too, like Focus Target or Ogryn melee dmg

so you don't even need max stacks

and even if you dont one-shot, a single light attack usually kill it. Cuz Thammer deals like 500+ dmg per hit

[tall torrent]

cool

but

wat is that build lol

[bold sierra]

my not super melee-oriented Thammer build that I run sometimes.

crits for survivability and for gun (inf autogun mostly)

and yes, everyone tells me Thammer doesnt have good finesse multiplier, I know that, but 200-250+ dmg from crit is still dmg, and it's not FOR the dmg anyway.

[tall torrent]

TH crit is a meme

just go IJ lol

[azure narwhal]

@steep flower gonna love this one

[bold sierra]

if it's meme then it's very usable meme, doesnt stop me from deleting bosss tho mind you. The 1 leftover point is to make a point that you can take whatever you want.

I use a lot of martyrdom these days anyway

[tall torrent]

it is

+20% damage and +20% atk speed is a bigger increase to TH than making it crit more given how little extra damage it gets from crit

Crit is good for stalwart + enduring faith for TDR but the damage side bonuses are very small for TH

Willy is just, very simply, not correct that often

[bold sierra]

a lot of guns benefit greatly from crits over some extra dmg tho. Which is mainly why I use Piety sometimes. Plus there's Prime Target

[tall torrent]

Yea it’s good for inf auto

But for TH it’s basically meme

[bold sierra]

it's half and half build obviously

[tall torrent]

For a lot of other weapons piety is unfortunately the best zealot keystone

[bold sierra]

I'd run Marytrdom if I want to focus only on Thammer midn you

[steep flower]

i love it...

[steep flower]

the talent cost for IJ is as a matter of fact very costly in comparrison to piety (if you wanna make it work)
sure its easier if you go shroudfield but... what if you wanna go charge? then you have to spend more

[rancid dragon]

Eyeball

[bold sierra]

I'd say, if you can clear Havoc games with whatever MEME build that you feel most comfortable with, then it's NOT meme

not everyone is gonna vibe with """the build""""

playing DS and chrous once and I almsot felt like ending myself lmao

[steep flower]

and yet stuff ain't bad nor a meme; i dunno - same with you stating that charging TH on twin shields is not worth it... and lo & behold; it makes a sizeable difference

[steep flower]

toothpick is reserved for after dinner sessions not in combat

[bold sierra]

IJ is cool, and maybe it is extra dmg for Thammer. But yknow....I'm not getting the boons from Piety + all the other talent nodes that come in its path (Prime Target, Blinded By Blood) that basically give it 20%+ dmg too.

[steep flower]

ye; and thats the main point of me going piety over IJ - Survivability; said it many times but hey; mAh nUmBeRs

[bold sierra]

^

20%+ dmg in the IJ path is VERY negligible for boss dmg anyway lol

[steep flower]

ah data miners; stay more in the code than in the field
but thats ok; community does need data miners - cause knowledge is power after all

[bold sierra]

plus, more crits = more dmg too, even on low finesse weapons

[fair shale]

I appreciate data miners

Cause I do not want to do that shit

[steep flower]

ngl tho sometimes its nice to look into some obscure stuff that requires testing & stuff

just like it did with the TH on twins shields

[tall torrent]

I said building it to reach specific 2 shot shield not worth because it’s far likelier you’ll just need to do 3 most of the time, and yes it is most of the time 3 hit lol

[fair shale]

I enjoy prying into the obscure, just do not like dealing with code.

Numbs my mind.

[steep flower]

since then i utilize that and its as i look before more efficient cause stagger on shield break gives a breathing room for teammates

[tall torrent]

The “sizeable” difference is someone else getting to hit the shield or not

That’s not sizeable enough

[fair shale]

Bath, I got a question

[bold sierra]

not with Chastise tho

[fair shale]

What weapons do you normally use on vet?

[bold sierra]

and maybe the 30%+ dmg from chorus

[tall torrent]

vig auto is cool

[steep flower]

boi; building thrust swing does not take a century & when you position yourself correctly you'll never have problems with landing charged hits to pop the shield faster; you need to play more

[tall torrent]

3r burst one

Is best

[fair shale]

I agree but probably for an entirely different reason than you think it is

[steep flower]

i personally like the 2 round one

i think its best

[tall torrent]

Nah it is just more often 3 hit if nobody else is hitting shield

[thorn lark]

So basically his reasoning for human weapons is: must be mobile and kill crushers. That is what happens when we get YouTubers hard carried in Havoc by a weapon.

[steep flower]

which lets be real; never happens unless she goes after you & end up separated but thats like... very rare

[fair shale]

3rd reminds me of the ogog

Which is why its the best

[bold sierra]

basically, abysmal dogshit

[tall torrent]

I was thinking more of the halo battle rifle actually

[void dragon]

Even the ranged list he made gave some major red flags

[thorn lark]

https://tenor.com/view/gods-honest-truth-red-ellis-boyd-redding-morgan-freeman-the-shawshank-redemption-gif-23667353

[fair shale]

Tbh even if it was a bullpup id have posted mw2 famas

[bold sierra]

bro cannot handle weapons that are just a bit slower than knife or DS

honestly sad

well, I dont watch the dude so I cant say I should assume so much, btu from the tierlist...jeez

[fair shale]

Tbh I don't get how people like

Consistently use DS

Esp sub havoc

Its not a very fun weapon

[steep flower]

placing mk1 shovel above mk3 in terms of armor dmg was diabolical

i felt that crit hitting my noggin

[void dragon]

Speaking of, I tried knife again and HOLLY why are my dodges sending me to the moon? Its weird to miss stabs because I dodged to far

[candid harness]

What's with this community and the violating tierlists

[fair shale]

Everyone's dumb, except me. I'm a genius.

[bold sierra]

yeah it be like that lol, I played knife + Bolter w/ Infiltrate in H40 a couple of days ago, mostly just for the mobility lol

and a bit of bleed

[steep flower]

to fast to be hit & to hit others

[void dragon]

Hi ge-nei-us, me ogryn

[bold sierra]

Also, Infiltrate is basically Zealot's shroud for Vet, it's great for Havoc 40 imo.

[candid harness]

Tf was that for a moment lmao

[bold sierra]

what the

[candid harness]

Was that an attempt at spam or scam advertisement, I saw that

[azure narwhal]

goddamn boy you shooting all the heretics didn't your father give you a butterfly knife or something

[bold sierra]

probably? or just way too much uploads?

[azure narwhal]

yeah

that was insta deletion 1000%

[bold sierra]

yes, there were a lot of ragers, crushers and maulers. Plus boss deletion

and idk, knife isnt that great for horde

[umbral scaffold]

anybody got that matching set of the Cadian officer you get from 2000 krak kills/restore 7500 toughness

[bold sierra]

I mean, it's a knife so ye lol

[atomic void]

wooha watch out are u implying a skilled player can make it work

le heresy

[bold sierra]

but tbh it aint that complicated, go stealth, get behind boss, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, boss die, stabs

and invis revives is goated

[void dragon]

Suggesting that a Skill issue can be overcomed with skill, Mandated Edict: shamed by the bad players because "How DARE you saying that"

[azure narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-spy-gif-25844405

[bold sierra]

[azure narwhal]

you thought infiltrate was a good ability

in reality

you are only mimicing the move many fathers like to pull

https://tenor.com/view/your-mom-spy-tf2-team-fortress2-sheesh-gif-21838783

[bold sierra]

stole

tho it does offer quite a few nice benefits, I did have a 2nd vet in there

[azure narwhal]

im joking, i like infiltrate

though i am a voc main because i like hearing the shout voicelines

as for keystones

a horrible slave to WS i must say

[bold sierra]

the right one?

[void dragon]

I'm a Focused target simp, mostly because it boost grenade damage

[bold sierra]

it's the easiest one definitely

just straight buff

[void dragon]

And can make the little garbo team I have be less garbo so they can carry me (cuz me garboerest)

[steep flower]

I like FT cause it makes big targets... smaller if only in HP size

[azure narwhal]

yes

there's something about swinging my melee and shooting at 2000RPM that's very funny

[thorn lark]

are youre it's not due to the current event?

[midnight wyvern]

are you are

[bold sierra]

it is pretty great but idk how to feel about keystones that dont give you dmg+ lol, it's great tho

and it's pretyt dependant on specific weapons for my liking

[bold sierra]

it really just help with a lot of breakpoints

[azure narwhal]

tbh there are plenty of the like (keystones that don't give direct damage) that are incredible but that's going off course

FT is really good

i am far too forgetful to use it consistently

i'll likely end up spending stacks on some random sniper i pinged if i do use it

[tall torrent]

It’s missing a bit of damage to get 1-burst kills reliably, but it’s not far off

[bold sierra]

it's mostly the dmg that's given to you after tagged target is killed that's most important, I too forget to tag a lot of the times, but it just straight up gives you lasting dmg lol

[tall torrent]

I don’t think IJ is that costly, it’s just 1 extra point cost vs piety for the keystone itself while piety often takes at least point extra in pathing, it’s evened out most of the time

Piety usually looks like CDR + scourge + enduring faith + at least one between BbB / prime target

IJ is CDR + hubris + riposte

[void dragon]

Didn't used a stim, I often inject allies instead of me, so idk

[thorn lark]

no it was buffed without stimm

if you recover the rations

[tall torrent]

So yea they’re even cost

[void dragon]

It's stim knife dodging even More absurd? Must test at least once

[thorn lark]

hubris mid and riposte too costly for just 15% conditional dmg

[void dragon]

If you are collecting the backstabbing damage boosts maybe, but that's indeed too situational buff

[thorn lark]

there is a better use for those 2 points yeah

you're not starving but if already go fotf + ij well every point counts

[tall torrent]

Yea then IJ can just take the sprint node and spend just 2 points (including CDR) to reach keystone

Whereas piety usually takes a bunch of talents on the way there

[thorn lark]

true

[steep flower]

even but survivability wise its worse; extra att spd from IJ is nice but you get enough from 10% passive & charge ability for 10 sec
up to 20% dmg is nice but having more consistent crits = more survivability cause EF; EF carried zealot before, it carries him now

[steep flower]

unfortunately sprint node is... mid; not bad but mid

[tall torrent]

Yea piety is best for tanking, unfortunately TH just gets little to no damage value from piety

Piety is the best keystone for most weapons that aren’t TH

[thorn lark]

This is my ij relic build

the red circle points are just for pure fun

it is so fun with a heavy weapon

[tall torrent]

I don’t think unfaltering is just pure fun for heavy weapons

[tall torrent]

It’s ok

It’s x1.1 sprint speed which is multiplicative to move speed bonuses

[steep flower]

i rather have things that actualy contribute to my survivability; sadly the sprint one is oof cause it takes a second to activate = it can't be used when a bomber throws a grenade under your feet

[tall torrent]

Taking an entire keystone route just for tanking for TH just seems so wrong lol

Might as well play a diff weapon that gets more value out of crit

[steep flower]

And heres the key word my friend
seems
Try it & You'll see; or don't

[tall torrent]

Yea I tried it it’s just not as good

[bold sierra]

why not be tanky AND still able to delete boss, you can play weapons that benefit from piety a bit more bt then well...you lose out on the juicy boss dmg

[steep flower]

its not about the dmg; its about staying alive so you can do the damage

[bold sierra]

and really, 20%+ dmg no crits, isnt much different from a bunch of crits

[atomic void]

truth nuke

its a god send

[bold sierra]

dont matter if it's not super crit-oriented melee

crit dmg is crit dmg

dmg is dmg

[tall torrent]

30-60% chance to do 20% more damage
Vs
Just do 15-20% more damage all the time

[bold sierra]

20% more? more like 40-50% more

wait gotta check

[tall torrent]

Nah TH crit value is rly not that big

lol

[candid harness]

All those flavor lines about ignorance on the loading screens really ring true-

[bold sierra]

no yeah it is more actually, like 50-60% more on crit

at least on light attack

[tall torrent]

U crit for 8k on an empowered heavy weakspot hit on crusher? On piety build? Without FotF or shroud?

That’s 60% more

And yea no it’s not happening

It’s more like 6k at best

[bold sierra]

like I said, on light attacks. Which midn you, deal pretty good dmg. Plus I never really empower heavy that much without chastise, let alone it be a crit.

[azure narwhal]

you'd technically have to account for IJ's att speed too to compare piety vs IJ dps right? seems awfully difficult

[tall torrent]

Just consider IJ as +15~20% damage and +15~20% atk speed

It’s roughly the same atk speed bonus as FotF

So u could like, take shroud and still get 30~40% atk speed bonus without going martyr

Do keep in mind that atk speed bonus is not a simple linear increase to dps

It’s kinda complicated how it works

[bold sierra]

tbh, afaik, heavy charging doesnt get affected by atk speed bonus that much, at least not for Thrust build-up, it does give it faster swing anim but that's it, for a Thrust-heavy weapon like Thammer, atk speed is great but if u aint light attacking, it doesnt matter as much

[tall torrent]

Thrust doesn’t care about atk speed

Yes

It’s a fixed stacking interval

[bold sierra]

it does help with light attcks of Thammer tho, same with crits on Thammer light attacks

[tall torrent]

So it’s technically worse off the more atk speed u have assuming u don’t go for full charge heavy atks often

[bold sierra]

they deal 60%+ dmg from non-crit

heavy attacks are less ofc

[tall torrent]

I also think TH’s gimmick got diminished in 1.9 somewhat

[bold sierra]

its gimmick is mostly its insane Unyielding burst dmg

at least for me

dunno about you

[tall torrent]

Because shroud now allows almost every weapon to do its gimmick, even if not as good, while being better in mixed horde & other metrics

And shroud is pretty great now

[atomic void]

they should just listen to my suggestions to save thammer

[tall torrent]

Even tho none of those other weapons are as good as TH for 1 tapping bosses most of the time chunking it hard enough is good enough

But they’re way way way better at doing mixed horde lol

[tall torrent]

Its gimmick is boss chunking (not limited to unyielding)

[bold sierra]

well, not really, other weapons require A LOT more for them to do good boss Shroud dmg, like Eviscerator Mk10 with midn you INSANE heavy rev dmg, only deal like 40% of a Burgle's HP bar without any martyrdom stacks. While Thammer deals like 90%. It will save you a lot of talent skill points

[tall torrent]

Why Evis with shroud

Who even does that