veteran-class

[frank basin]

Zealot tree is feel old now

Psyker is already good with toughness regen without ability

Ogryn is also too

Vet had few toughness regen (without ability) as zealot has few also, two class is feel as skill needed not get hit many time.

[untold mulch]

Reddit

What did yo u expect

[frank basin]

Redditor hive minded of (bad) youtuber builds

[orchid hemlock]

Vet probably has it worse

[frank basin]

sad spongebob

[orchid hemlock]

Because of an essentric individual 😈

[untold mulch]

?

[frank basin]

What essentric means?

Self centered? Collective minds?

[grand perch]

eccentric

[orchid hemlock]

Outspoken

[frank basin]

I don’t get it (as non-native speaker)

Outspoken I heard but don’t understand meaning

[orchid hemlock]

Point is, Vet has had a pretty bad history with misinformation

Well Darktide in general

[orchid hemlock]

But especially Vet

[frank basin]

And path step in stop misinformation

Path looks he dedicated to veteran

[grand perch]

you mean misinfo like plasma should do 4000 damage on left clicks?

[frank basin]

If that really deal lot damage it would be too nice

[orchid hemlock]

The problem with Path's work is that it isn't platformed ATM

The majority of people won't see his guide on Gameslantern or Steam

[frank basin]

Because they are Reddit dweller

[orchid hemlock]

That's why when Path drops the steam guide, we up voting that shit 😈

[frank basin]

Are we scheming rigging elections?

[grand perch]

not scheming, deciding on

[orchid hemlock]

Counter rigging with rigging

[untold mulch]

can neither confirm nor deny these allegations

[frank basin]

Redditor would down vote path steam guide because they do bomb vote forum

That’s is my thinking how they are

[unreal bone]

Man getting 3 boss spawns at the same time sucks literal cheeks

[frank basin]

Are they weakend?

[unreal bone]

No

[sudden cedar]

How about 3 real bosses, one of each, plus a weakened one for good measure.

[unreal bone]

They are full health

[sudden cedar]

Right at the start of the mission

[unreal bone]

BoN, Captain, Lieutenant Twins

[frank basin]

https://tenor.com/view/itsover-wojack-gif-4367840179675491690

[sudden cedar]

Nah

Doable.

[unreal bone]

Not really

[sudden cedar]

Totally really.

[unreal bone]

On havoc 23 with all trash mobs getting superbuffed

[sudden cedar]

Oh just 23?

[sudden cedar]

Even more doable.

[unreal bone]

Dude it's not doable I'm on my last strike for 23

I mean

it is

but that exact situation was not

[sudden cedar]

There we go.

It is doable.

[unreal bone]

BoN, Captain, and Lieutenant Twins

[sudden cedar]

https://tenor.com/ta7T.gif

[unreal bone]

I mean 3 fucking chaos champions

[orchid hemlock]

23

[frank basin]

Did your entire team died?

[orchid hemlock]

Easy

[unreal bone]

Yeah our entire team was fine

[sudden cedar]

23 is like.. on the grand scale of things.. nothing.

[unreal bone]

until well 3 bosses that have healing enemies around them

[sudden cedar]

You kill the healing mobs first obviously.

[unreal bone]

5 crushers with encroaching garden

[frank basin]

This is your first time havoc?

[sudden cedar]

This is like normal havoc experience.

[orchid hemlock]

Just 5?

[sudden cedar]

it can get much worse.

[orchid hemlock]

Also crushers are not that scary, it's the reapers that are pretty nasty with the healing

[frank basin]

Is reaper deal more damage than human sized gunner?

[sudden cedar]

Any gunner will shred you

The higher havoc goes

[steep flower]

Need help? I can help ya

[unreal bone]

No

[frank basin]

I never try higher havoc after first time havoc with 1-2 with my friend (then we stop playing together l)

[unreal bone]

I've been playing havoc since it came out idk what happened in the arbites update but it became astronomically bullshit

[frank basin]

They add pus harden back

[sudden cedar]

i could help too

venting some frustration

[unreal bone]

I don't even have pus hardened

[steep flower]

Ppl got overconfident with new class & there are alot of returning/new players

[unreal bone]

I just have 5 bosses a minute ontop of healing bosses and rampaging bosses

[frank basin]

But you’ll get it

[orchid hemlock]

I think havocs have gotten easier since season 1

[unreal bone]

Pus hardened isn't even bad

[frank basin]

Why people complaining it?

I don’t know what in it either

[unreal bone]

it reduces melee damage

sorry

rangeD*

[frank basin]

Make sense why

Oh

Could be why

[orchid hemlock]

Pus is probably one of the most annoying to anti specialist classes

[unreal bone]

It can probably ruin breakpoints on guns like plasma

[frank basin]

Yes

And trapper

[unreal bone]

I don't care about pus hardened

[orchid hemlock]

It makes gunners scary, which is by default pretty nasty

[frank basin]

Is mosquito

[unreal bone]

Pus hardened doesn't bother me because I primarily either play close to mid range classes, or classes that stack dots

[orchid hemlock]

It doesn't really matter though because they nerfed the modifiers, it doesn't spam as often as before

[unreal bone]

Yeah it was never that bad

To me personally getting the fucking 5 man blob of crushers with nurgle garden healing eachother and everything else around them

is infinitely more annoying

especially when you combo it with ally death = enrage buffs

[sudden cedar]

@unreal bone @steep flower i think we both would be more than happy to assist.

[frank basin]

Without one shotting melee like ogryn sure sound pain

[orchid hemlock]

No it probably was one of the nastiest modifiers in the entire game, there was a reason it was removed after the first season

[unreal bone]

I'm going to try one more.

I already deranked down to 22 because 5 to 7 bosses spawned every 30 seconds

Real bosses not weakened

[frank basin]

BoN corruption is blah

Getting on back is bit annoying

[unreal bone]

BoN was always one of those 5 to 7 bosses

making the floor is lava while you juked multiple chaos champions

That healed eachother

and were enraged

[frank basin]

And Champion with crusher land strike killed you

[unreal bone]

Nah the crusher didn't kill

The sheer amount of shit that slowly piled up killed us lol, like 5 to 7 bosses ontop of all the specials being healed and enraged

[frank basin]

Havoc is havoc

Feel like need tactic and cunning to deal the problem

And has be quick

Hitting the dead horse slowing spread disease didn’t stop it

[heavy rover]

Havoc needs you to be both brutally cunning and cunningly brutal

[sudden cedar]

Gork and Mork.

Or Mork and Gork.

[frank basin]

Gmork

[sudden cedar]

Gorkamorka

[heavy rover]

Also pus hardened is inverse the higher havoc you go. Lower havoc rank, the higher the damage reduction from pus hardened

[frank basin]

You sure?

[heavy rover]

If I recall correctly, unless if the devs changed it recently

[frank basin]

Like infantry lasgun dmg fallout inverted?

[heavy rover]

I meant like the flat damage reduction you get when shooting pus hardened enemies

[frank basin]

Dealing special and elite ranger be pain then

For me

[heavy rover]

Yeah it's rough

[frank basin]

Playing the dance avoiding firing

3 sniper is a slideco

[sudden cedar]

Just 3?

[frank basin]

3 if they targetting you

5 is extreme slide(dis)co

1 2 3 cha cha move set

[sudden cedar]

How about sniper gauntlet

[frank basin]

Don’t know how many

[sudden cedar]

Many.

10+

[frank basin]

The sniper dance

Otherwise I’m going play arbite shield maxxing

[sudden cedar]

That won't help you

[frank basin]

It will

Shieldmaxxing pilled

[trim badger]

As far as I remember

The resistance is higher the higher ranks

[heavy rover]

I think I found the calculation for pus hardened https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3375980903

Maybe the resistance could be because of the higher health pool at higher havoc?

[untold mulch]

I assume so?

Otherwise it would be kinda wierd to make it inverse

[trim badger]

Holy moly

[trim badger]

Idk feels kinda silly that a heresy sniper gets x10 HP meanwhile a havoc40 sniper (damnation+50%) gets just 50%)

Is it around the same amount of dmg required? Idk

Still feels very silly if true

[unreal bone]

I never had a problem with pus hardened

[heavy rover]

From my experience I got so frustrated with pus hardened with lower havocs that I started using infernus on las weapons to stack burn

[unreal bone]

I'm fine now, CRAZY how as soon as I derank 1 level and lose nurgle garden the mission becomes 1000x fucking easier.

Almost like constantly healing enraged multiboss spawns isn't fun Fartshart 🙃

Nurgle Garden got replaced with Final Toll and my life literally became 1000x easier

[sudden cedar]

I don't think that is really that much easier.

[unreal bone]

It was astronomically easier without nurgle garden

it wasn't even close

[sudden cedar]

Enemies that have healing don't heal each other.

[narrow frost]

I love new vets

using cover mechanic

[atomic void]

chad

[narrow frost]

omg

hes too good for Iron Will

[narrow frost]

@quiet valley

[topaz lance]

gigachad

[tame lodge]

Fucking

Inspiring

😭

[narrow frost]

when new players request to join my havoc 40, its always a treat

never let down

[atomic void]

iron will is a crutch

this guy is

[narrow frost]

I always accept

[elder vessel]

wuz iron will do again

[tame lodge]

Tdr past a % of toughness

[steep flower]

I could play 1 game after i eat (i’m heading home now) & help ya rank up if you wish or tomorrow if today is too late

[tame lodge]

It's what makes vet tankier than most characters

[hasty pasture]

any good vet names

[elder vessel]

Any of the default generated names

just be the guy in the background

[hollow ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[hasty pasture]

John Darktide

[hollow ibex]

Not taking crutch talents

iron will? A crutch. Simply don’t get hit.

Demo team? A crutch. Just get better at melee

[serene bough]

Based

[void dragon]

Stuck with a bunch of crushers in a small room with no nades? Just git gud and give them the chainsword

[frank basin]

Ping galeophobia he’s big fan of iron will and despise someone not taking it.

I wanna see reaction

[winged pond]

Hold up if we're roasting builds y'all might get pissed at mine

[frank basin]

Let us see

[winged pond]

Huh, guess no embed perms

Oh well

[frank basin]

dm me

ill post

[frank basin]

(to get the perm just chat more until you get red name)

[winged pond]

Heard dat

[frank basin]

(this is @winged pond build)

now im going take a look

[winged pond]

It's ogryn rock throwing but i lost weight

Just throw exploding rocks

[frank basin]

you took both demo stockphile and improvised?

[tame lodge]

https://tenor.com/view/nba-gif-15687325833433865178

[hollow ibex]

Oh no…

[frank basin]

and demo team?

[winged pond]

Basically just took every grenade perk

[frank basin]

that's quite lot grenade regen

[winged pond]

When I tell you I have the highest boss damage of anyone on my team 100% of the time...

[frank basin]

you have 2 krak only

[tame lodge]

At least take Precision Strikes

[winged pond]

Yes, 2 krak is enough

[winged pond]

Besides, just get lucky and now it's 3 kraks

Or even 4!

[frank basin]

oh you have twin blast

[winged pond]

Yuh

[frank basin]

that is gamble

[winged pond]

LETS GO GAMBLING

Aww dangit

Aww dangit

[frank basin]

10% is niche

i still take it

[winged pond]

It's such a dopamine rush

Hitting two kraks on a plague ogryn or something

[frank basin]

time for another arbite shield maxxing build

more stamina

[winged pond]

I usually run these with the plasma gun and power sword so I can roleplay my dreams of Cadian Sergeant

I can't remember what they're called but Cadians have particularly good heavy armored plasma gunners as I recall

[tame lodge]

Karskins ?

[faint beacon]

https://medal.tv/games/warhammer-40000-darktide/clips/kBVzMrVy6Uuvh9elc?invite=cr-MSx0UncsMTA3NDAxNTcz
@grand perch

[untold mulch]

Love LC

[steep flower]

love this

[untold mulch]

Train mission

2 arbiters

also called

• Well I guess I shoot the horde because the dogs track my eyes I fucking guess

[past stratus]

the autogun will destroy my left mouse button

[untold mulch]

Using Ilas or laspistol is destroying the mouse

Just me or the Heavy Recon feels more efficient than the Light one by a lot?

With Onslaught talent on the light one

[halcyon sigil]

Heavy one has cleave so it cuts through crowds, last time I read up on an analysis though the light one had better DPS and ammo efficiency overall

Just finished writing up my Guardsman LARP build if people want to roast it lol https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9f4bad2d-0591-481c-b5b8-80fb1d07e4c6/lasgun-sharpshooter-2

[orchid hemlock]

Why do you have always prepared on Lasgun? 🤔

[halcyon sigil]

executioners stance, last thing you want to do is use it only to find your lasgun was empty

[orchid hemlock]

I know this is a LARP build but you have no wave clear either

[orchid hemlock]

3.3% of your ammo in a Lasgun is like not even a single shot I think

[halcyon sigil]

10 stacks

33%

[orchid hemlock]

And what if you don't reach 10 stacks?

33% on a clip that is pretty full is not amazing either

Always prepared is for things like shotguns, revolvers or plasma

You also are not taking shock trooper

IG it isn't needed on ILAS but it is a much more efficient way of dealing with the clip size

[halcyon sigil]

I call it a larp but I do actually use it a lot, if you dont have 10 stacks from when you last did melee then you werent in a crowd so you probably had time to pull you gun normally and reload as needed

[orchid hemlock]

Also, always prepared is much more valuable when you can spam it

For example if I use a revolver, 3% = 1 bullet

So all I need to do is kill one target, switch quickly and I get a free bullet

[halcyon sigil]

33% of 100 is 10 shots (3 ammo per shot), with this build its 10 elites/specials dead with proper aim

[orchid hemlock]

No it's 10 kills not shots

[halcyon sigil]

its one kill per shot

yes on auric

[orchid hemlock]

I mean even if every single shot actually one shots the target

I doubt it because maulers, crushers, and reapers exist

But the fire rate isn't insane, so it will take a while to reach 10 stacks

Again the problem is that the benefit from always prepared is pretty bad on guns with large clip sizes

Because the value is rounded based on the number, not the actual ammo cost to fire the gun

[halcyon sigil]

10 stacks is from melee, because always prepared activates when you swap from melee to ranged, scaling on how many kills you got

[orchid hemlock]

And again, it is more efficient to spam the ability instead of waiting for the max stacks

But unfortunately you are not getting much ammo every time you proc it

Like I said, try shock trooper it is much more effective on the lasguns

[halcyon sigil]

idk what to say besides I use this build and it gives enough ammo to let you do your job regardless of whether you had time to reload since you last shot

sure shock trooper can be nice, but its not as simple as drop one and pick the other, theyre on different branches of the tree

I did write a small essay explaining how each node fits into the build and how its played

[untold mulch]

noted, thx

[orchid hemlock]

You can explain all you want, but the idea of taking always prepared instead of other nodes on the tree for more damage or simply reloading the gun is the issue

You also don't take iron will, probably the best talent in the entire tree

[halcyon sigil]

what other damage nodes does it need to take? it hits the breakpoints it needs to

[orchid hemlock]

I'm assuming you are talking about ES

But what about non headshot hits , not crit hits, or when the cool down is not up, or when you are shooting at something that has armor or a high HP pool

Not to mention havoc values, but that isn't important here.

Or other damage nodes for your wave clear, or your melee

[halcyon sigil]

crit hits arent needed, and weapon specialist/agile engagement allows it to perform on par with when ES is active for a short burst after you hotswap it

[orchid hemlock]

I also don't know why you take confirmed kill and out for blood

[orchid hemlock]

Do you know the crit values for ILAS?

[halcyon sigil]

im saying whether it crits or not is not relevant to whether it does what i want it to

[orchid hemlock]

I doubt it because you can't bodyshot non crit one shot on most flak elites or maniacs with the Kantrel

So unless you are playing perfectly in all scenarios a d hitting headshots all day like a Faze clan members, I am very skeptical that you are consistently hitting the one shot breakpoints

[halcyon sigil]

ill take that as a compliment then?

[orchid hemlock]

If you are good on you, hell I would recommend saying fuck the ILAS and put on a Hellbore

[rose reef]

what origins make your veteran is there something you always pick for their individual stories gamers

[orchid hemlock]

Even if you do play perfectly it doesn't necessarily mean it is optimal though, you asked for the build to be "roasted" so I assume you were asking for criticism

[halcyon sigil]

swapping confirmed kill for iron will is something im willing to try, I prefered the extra toughness regen because its a build thats all about countering elites and specials

[orchid hemlock]

I can start from the top of you want, but like I said the tree looks oversaturated and you are picking talents that don't give you nearly the amount of benefit that other nodes can give you

[heavy rover]

no shocktrooper talent?

[orchid hemlock]

This is also another problem, why do you have out for blood and CK?

[hollow ibex]

Please take iron will.

[orchid hemlock]

Also if you have insane toughness resit it makes your replenishment more valuable

Because the toughness is harder to crack

[halcyon sigil]

the ammo efficiency of the kantrael with scavenger is pretty solid by itself, ive never needed more than the 3 small tins in a mission

[orchid hemlock]

This is also another problem, your build has no answer to mixed hordes and you take krak over frags 🤔

[orchid hemlock]

But why would you take krak at all if the melee is a knife?

And your range is not a wave clearing range

IG there are builds out there that focus on boss damage, but usually the melee is then the wave clearing tool

[halcyon sigil]

i dont usually have trouble with hordes if thats what youre asking, armored enemies are the main thing that are tedious to work around, hence the krak

[orchid hemlock]

Have you played game modes with large hordes?

Because in all honesty I don't know what you are going to do in a situation when a horde with several ragers and maulers in it

[halcyon sigil]

ive been playing at auric level on and off since release, im happy with methods to control and make space in a crowd to deal with things

[orchid hemlock]

But your answer to every criticism has been "I outplay the situation and don't need it"

Well I can say the same with grey items and 0 talents in the tree 💀

What I am asking is the justification to take the nodes, not "I don't need x so I choose y"

[halcyon sigil]

i did explain why i chose what i chose in more detail tbf, put a lot of effort into making it easy to read at a glance

[orchid hemlock]

You complain about the clip being too small and then you say this

To justify taking always prepared

[halcyon sigil]

i didnt complain about the clip size, the issue is how long it takes to reload

[orchid hemlock]

Also ammo is not the dump on ILAS

[orchid hemlock]

But you would need to reload less if you had a larger clip size, circumventing the issue of using ES

There is no drawbacks putting it at 80%, you can just dump mobility and you get everything you wanted

[halcyon sigil]

the difference between 60% and 70% is 96 to 101 ammo per mag... that adds 1.3 more shots per mag

it has a significant impact on the ammo resevoir but again, i dont have issues with overall ammo management

[orchid hemlock]

The difference between 60 and 80 mob is .3 meters in dashing

[halcyon sigil]

when things can get into a melee rather quickly, the improvements in movement are more valuable than 2 and a bit shots extra in the magazine

[orchid hemlock]

.3 meters is not more important that having more ammo the clip, pls stop capping 💀

[halcyon sigil]

2 shots isnt an adequate replacement to automatically refilling a third of the magazine because you swapped back to the gun

[orchid hemlock]

I'm not even sure you can even run a test to see if that .3m difference effects the real world gameplay

[halcyon sigil]

youre also ignoring the fact mobility also affects general movement speed, dodge limits and dodge speed

[orchid hemlock]

It's soo negligible that other factors are significantly more impactful

[orchid hemlock]

Yeah you know how much mobility it gives between 60 and 80?

[tropic notch]

[orchid hemlock]

Look at the stats and see how it changes from 60-80

You will realize something very interesting

[tropic notch]

Yucky!

Yucky build!

Builds heading in the right direction

But it’s looks rough and wouldn’t be something I’d enjoy

Only real way i enjoy vet is dbarrel knife or ps revolver/bistol

[past stratus]

I'm still not sure if I like the Helbore III after the buffs. It still feels like the V is better

[tall torrent]

V is dependent on crit for 1hs flamer

And cannot 1 tap in havoc

[past stratus]

idk, I feel like specially for big targets and bosses the V does better and other elites don't really bother me that much. I think I need to play more with the III and get comfortable with it

the stabs on the bayonete are way better though

[tall torrent]

Are u mistaking V with IV

[past stratus]

oh maybe

yeah yeah

I played so much with this godamn gun and now that I haven't played it for a couple of weeks I'm already forgetting everything about it

[tame lodge]

You get all your available dodges at 53% mobility

Or was it 56%

[tall torrent]

51%

[tame lodge]

I knew it was a bit past 50

[abstract sand]

https://tenor.com/view/brad-pitt-fury-movie-shoot-that-guy-gif-8829002926137263043

has determined
no iron will

Chat can we send this man to the lowest depths of hell

[frank basin]

Don’t “chat”

Galeo hated already

[tame lodge]

To be fair

It is an iLas

Determined actually helps

[abstract sand]

suppression is nothing

just keep firing

[frank basin]

Everytime seeing Ryan gosling I keep hearing Nightcalls

[orchid hemlock]

ilas wants determined

It looses a lot of accuracy when suppressed

Also why are people soo viscous, it's just a build

[primal stirrup]

a build in a game

[tame lodge]

Tbf

They kinda gave us permission to roast it

[halcyon sigil]

[orchid hemlock]

Yeah but roasting someone requires finesse 🧑🏻‍🎨

[tall torrent]

It’s a role play build don’t take it too seriously lol

[orchid hemlock]

Like: "where did you get this build from, Mr E?"

[orchid hemlock]

No shovel, roleplay ruined 😞

[halcyon sigil]

thats kreig roleplay duh

[tall torrent]

Roleplay ≠ gaslighting

[halcyon sigil]

am trying a few reworks based on lessons learned on the pyre though

[vague wigeon]

@untold mulch
Idk who have done this but it is true, hillarious and sad at the same time

[tame lodge]

https://tenor.com/view/minecraft-movie-flint-and-steel-gif-4491320584761369279

Although you lose dog

And dog is fucking broken atm

[orchid hemlock]

No doggo means no pets 😔

[vague wigeon]

Kinda but arbitrator is pretty OP even without the dog

[orchid hemlock]

Me dog seeing the gunner 50 meters away and with 300% damage bonuses

[hollow ibex]

Playing vet and arbi is night and day tbh lol

I only play without dog

[orchid hemlock]

Best Specialist killer is dog now

Vet got dethroned 😞

[halcyon sigil]

nothing excessive about recharging the shock mine that stuns an entire area for 15 seconds every minute

[past stratus]

that mine is like a Smite Psyker

its pretty insane

[long dove]

Do I have to be the one to place down the medipack for Field Improv to take affect?

[hollow ibex]

no as long as a vet on the team has it

it'll apply

[heavy rover]

ya but arbites doesn't have helbore, so that balances out

[tame lodge]

Psyker should have Helby

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-for-the-funny-trollface-modern-warfare-3-call-of-duty-call-of-duty-meme-gif-13333631413951346368

[maiden tapir]

on weapon spec double barrel think i can skip out on scatter shot for man stopper flechette

[tame lodge]

Yes

3 stacks of WS is a guaranteed ranged crit

[orchid hemlock]

Am coping hard to do a reload build on Arbi for DB

[manic vigil]

Heyo. i just tried a build and got absolutely dogged on in level 4 mission. did smoke, executioner and weapon specialist. I was very slow and just had no durability. Is there a recommended build that uses one of the slow firing, marksman type guns

I don't want to only be effective with executioner stance and recon laz. that will get boring

[serene bough]

If u want maximum effectiveness go Voice of Command

There are some variations but it'll include surv, shredders, and voc

[abstract sand]

what build

[manic vigil]

I do like abilities like that. Seems like I don't run into people running support type builds as much now

[serene bough]

I use this for ilas but I dont recommend left keystone for 95% of builds

Depending on your weapon go right keystone or middle keystone

[hollow ibex]

ilas is prob one of the few weapons ok with MMF

though i still don't take MMF on ilas anyway lol

[manic vigil]

Lol

[serene bough]

I use bc it pushes a lot of meaningful breakpoints on auric w/ 3 stacks for IIb

[manic vigil]

I've been told multiple times marksman focus is bad

I thought it sounded strong at first, but you really need to be moving at higher levels it seems

[halcyon sigil]

mmf is taken so little i didnt realise what mmf was refering to for a minute lol

[serene bough]

Its used in extremely niche circumstances for specific weapons

[manic vigil]

High dmg, single shot ones?

[serene bough]

Overall FT is more consistent but there are few examples where MMF does well

[hollow ibex]

reasonable guess

but no

you actually want high finesse weapons that also fire quickly

so stuff like IAG, vigilants, ilas mk 2

[manic vigil]

How effective are those? I'm a sucker for dmr deals, but this game is easy to be a burden on the team when you mess up and I don't actually want to do that if I can both find something fun and be useful

[umbral scaffold]

its hard being a veteran now that arbites is out 😦

[hollow ibex]

IAG is meta, the rest are not

[manic vigil]

Okay, I have been wanting to get into those burst guns more

[halcyon sigil]

resets timer on weakspot hit, so something that will hit weakspots by sheer volume of fire can keep it going without worrying about the movement restrictions as much

[hollow ibex]

vigilant can absolutely be strong but very few people make them work well

i'm not one of them lol

they just haven't aged well in the current meta

[manic vigil]

When using that marksman focus, do you lose stacks crouching? I know i can probably test in grinder, but I figured I'd just ask while i'm here

Sorry, crouching and dodging

The other classes seemed like they were easier to build, and that when not being what I assume is "optimal", that the differences in power or usefulness weren't as apparent

[serene bough]

The vet tree isn't very flexible

[manic vigil]

But it's hard to say while looking at it through the eyes of a newer player

[hollow ibex]

vet is fucked

[manic vigil]

Is it true that's it's considered outdated

[hollow ibex]

honestly don't remember, been so long since i played MMF

[serene bough]

If were discussing meta there is basically 1 path which alters depending on the weapon

[manic vigil]

Recon laz just seemed to blow anything else away I tried on the class.

[hollow ibex]

recon las is very good yeah

[manic vigil]

Voice of command with smokes sounded like it would be good for some kinda pseudo support deal

And focus target

[halcyon sigil]

smokes tend to be more trouble than its worth, gets in the way of your own shooting and can disrupt the playstyle of others in random teams

[manic vigil]

Fair point.

[halcyon sigil]

not to mention the lack of lethality

[hollow ibex]

smokes can be good

in havoc

i only run them when i'm memeing in auric

[upper dock]

frags are so useful it's hard to not take them

[manic vigil]

I was trying to look at it like "OTher people will be playing with more lethal builds, so maybe they have those bases covered and I can watch their backs in another way"

[halcyon sigil]

they can be, i think the easiest on the fly thing when i was using it was blocking doorways for force ranged threats in the next room to close in to melee range

[manic vigil]

I'll have to consider that then. Maybe try a few matches and see if I can be good at placing them more near the back of ranged so they're "blocked" but my team can see em

[halcyon sigil]

if it helps, all grenades have utility beyond lethality in how they stagger things and make space, so theyre all good for supporting others in their own way

[maiden tapir]

im doing tac axe and double barrel with

[manic vigil]

Tac axe. What's with that? Seems i keep running into people mentioning how good it is

[maiden tapir]

its really a shame they put agile on the left

Right*

tatical axe

[halcyon sigil]

its a shame the trees so hard to navigate in general

[maiden tapir]

ya

[tropic notch]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9f4191b1-b827-4295-bf1c-f7d37b862778/terrible-vet-dbknife-build?utm_medium=website&utm_source=gameslantern&utm_campaign=share_button try this

[maiden tapir]

you gotta get the grenade regen

and thats a tax

[nimble wadi]

I’m having trouble reaching breakpoints with agri shotgun, I’m running flak unyielding full bore no respite, any other suggestions

[tropic notch]

You’re gonna want that stam node

[unreal nova]

Still linking those terrible builds?

[tropic notch]

Of course they are terrible

https://tenor.com/view/love-and-joy-dancing-cat-heart-is-full-of-love-and-joy-trinkets-trinkets-and-toys-gif-8137689065499612543

[maiden tapir]

i just dont like shout

despite knowing its better

[unreal nova]

I see. Heh. Patpats.

[tropic notch]

I’m dating you long lost twin from the states

She acts just like you

[maiden tapir]

i sacked top two for iron and stam

[tropic notch]

And she’s old

[maiden tapir]

figured id probably need the toughness regen but ill see

[manic vigil]

One last question for now. For curious, do you need to be specific with main stats? OR can you just do like, 1 for 3 stam and then 2 toughness

[unreal nova]

Wot? Explain.

[faint wedge]

You just need to get karking stuck in

[hollow ibex]

yeah it's important to minmax curios on vet

for auric, i typically do 2x hp, 1x toughness

to hit the 200 hp breakpoint

[tropic notch]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-no-way-noo-absolutely-not-gif-20244171

[halcyon sigil]

i can relate, its a cool archetype but I dont like treating it like its the only thing vet can be

[hollow ibex]

i don't think a stam curio is needed on any class

[manic vigil]

Okay, HP. Could you explain the hp part? Curious have me the most confused, and it seemed like asking and looking around at first, it was all toughness

[tame lodge]

Good

Screw your teammates

[unreal nova]

WDYM, she acts like me?

[maiden tapir]

my only real consoldation is that agile engaements is way better than the rest of the nodes in that line

[tame lodge]

How am I supposed to trust that my team can deal with basic trash walkers if they can't handle a little smoke

https://tenor.com/view/desiler-giga-chad-gif-9574825124538696572

How am I supposed to trust my team with Tox gas if they can't handle a little smoke

[manic vigil]

Someone is allergic to gunners

[maiden tapir]

everyones allgeric to gunners

except arb i guess

[frank basin]

Arb got shield

No worry

[tame lodge]

Everyone's allergic to getting shot to death

It kinda

Kills them

[frank basin]

Ogryn is taking little longer

[tame lodge]

https://tenor.com/view/people-die-if-they-are-gif-20318194

[halcyon sigil]

toughness prevents HP loss
toughness recharges HP doesnt
toughness absorbs ranged attacks completely and reduces how much damage melee attacks do to health inversely proportional to how much toughness % you have (100% toughness blocks 100% health damage)
toughness recovers by %, but how much % you loose per hit depends on how big the toughness pool is, and the less you loose the less damage bleeds through on melee hits
THEREFORE people like stacking toughness to put as much sponge between their health and lasting damage
people who spec into health prefer the security of having a higher tollerance to the damage that will eventually bleed through as things go wrong

... i think thats as condensed as i can explain that whole toughness management theory stuff atleast

[manic vigil]

UHHHHHHHHHH

Back up

So melee attacks actually go through toughness

[halcyon sigil]

Going all in on toughness is strong but brittle, going all in on health is squishy but forgiving

[manic vigil]

even when you have a toughness left

[halcyon sigil]

yes

[manic vigil]

BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[halcyon sigil]

but not ranged attacks

[manic vigil]

That explains so fking much.

I was wondering why there was times I had toughness, but still dying

Because I would play very wildly, even with low health like on my zealot and not caring sometimes

because that toughness bar was so full

[halcyon sigil]

yeah its not a simple overshield, and the game doesnt go out of its way to actually explain that lol

[manic vigil]

I didn't know about melee going through, so I always assumed toughness was like a 100% shield and that HP was only for classes that weren't as good as generating toughness

[hollow ibex]

there are enemies that essentially just bypass toughness

like snipers and bursters

[manic vigil]

Christ

[hollow ibex]

if you ignore hp completely, and get burstered because a teammate thought it'd be funny to push a burster into you

[manic vigil]

I knew some things went through toughness but man

[hollow ibex]

you're going to really feel it

[manic vigil]

This is huge

[hollow ibex]

i think sniper does like 10x damage to toughness

and has full spillover damage

[manic vigil]

I've just been stacking toughness on stuff sicne I figured it was this pefect defense

[maiden tapir]

flechete lets you get ranged stacks by swapping out to melee for the bleed outs

[hollow ibex]

so if your toughness doesn't block the shot completely, and you don't have piss toughness up, it'll do full damage to HP

[manic vigil]

THis might be a game changer

[halcyon sigil]

anything that deals corruption damage also ignores toughness

i mean toughness is the perfect defence... against ranged damage... and the first melee hit you take

it just kinda goes downhill from there in a melee

[hollow ibex]

yeah don't get me wrong, toughness curio/perks are still very important

esp on other classes

for vet, it's just kinda hard not to take 2x hp and 1x toughness if you want the 200 hp breakpoint

[halcyon sigil]

its something thats worth getting a full curio set of each and trying for yourself what balance feels right

[hollow ibex]

and you could ignore the 200hp breakpoint, it's not a must have

question of what you want to prioritize

[manic vigil]

It's more about how non chalant I would be in melee range. opting to just attack and get the extra hits in while not paying attention to hp at all

This is great info. I'm gonna see what I can slap together now

[halcyon sigil]

yeah, working in some dodges or shoves to stagger would be attackers as part of your combat routine is a good thing to learn

[manic vigil]

thank you everyone. ima see what happens now.

appreciated

"Switch mode" reminds me of turning our e tools to "area beautification mode" in basic lol

[heavy rover]

is there a benefit to running helbore with marksman focus and long range assassin?

[hollow ibex]

doubt it helps with breakpoints that much

you'll prob do a lot of overkill damage

and make the game much more difficult than it needs to be

[heavy rover]

true

probably a pain to deal with crushers too. forces you to do headshots when their torsos are flak

[manic vigil]

Another one

[rose reef]

any chain axes god?

gotta be one

gotta be surely

[tame lodge]

Mk4

Mk12 is a bit

Odd

[steady prism]

The other thing to keep in mind.. is check to see what damage type the weapon is good against. I am not saying it is the Chain axes itself but in general.. Some weapons have higher damage towards a specific enemy. Example my combat axe does 129% damage to Flak armor. This tells me to aim for the head on most enemies

You would be surprised.. There are people to this day that don't know which section of an enemy is Flak and which is Carapace

[sonic wedge]

I have a question, does stacking max health with +5 toughness attribute better vs +17% toughness with +5 max health attribute with damage resistances to gunners for ranged veteran?

[hollow ibex]

for aurics, ideal to hit 200+, then throw rest into toughness

and whatever resistances you wantg

[steady prism]

That is quite a bit to respond to.. Unfortunately this game is based on % . The higher your toughness, the more you gain back for your passives. It is a small increment to a certain point. That said.. I have found having 16-17% on my Trinkets is more than enough. I use Sprint and Block Efficiency plus Stamina regeneration

[halcyon sigil]

people tend to lean towards toughness curios, mixing in health perks is a good way to keep things more robust though id point out what you could do is try 2 toughness curios and one health curio all with toughness perks - 15% toughness from perks is almost as much as an the 3rd toughness curio you dropped, while the ~20% hp from the health curio is way better than 3 health perks

[sacred nest]

Tried searching for the answer. Does the power sword still have the "get hit -> lose activation" bug?

[sonic wedge]

True but what I was baffled with was I was maxing +16 and +17 toughness curious with both +5 toughness and health and somehow my toughness was in 170-180ish

[sonic wedge]

Yes, it happens to me all the time

[sacred nest]

oh fantastic

[steady prism]

I haven't seen a need to do that even out to Auric.. I just rely on the Trinket main stat of 16-17% toughness and grab other stats that are more useful. My ability to reposition is why I don't need much else.. that Stamina regen with Sprint efficiency means I can book it if needed

[hollow ibex]

you really don't need both stam regen and sprint eff

[halcyon sigil]

the multipliers can have wildly different results because they apply to any +toughness nodes you take in the skill tree too

[hollow ibex]

just take 3x sprint eff

[sacred nest]

+3 stam is pretty great

[steady prism]

I dont need it yes but its what I am used to and it works

[sonic wedge]

Yeah true, I find myself trying out those two possibilities to see which is better for survivability since I mainly focused my build on shooting people rather than engaging heretics in close ranges

[sonic wedge]

Ah that may be it, some percentages may be going elsewhere with my talent tree so I may have to recheck onnn that one

[halcyon sigil]

most people pick up a +25 toughness node on the way to weapon specialist or focus target which is why it might not have come to mind

[steady prism]

Yes that is what I am doing right now.. I am experimenting with the Hellbore IV. I have it paired with a Rashad Axe. It has the ammo reserve for higher difficulties and I am finding that with Falter, I can 2 shot a Crusher if using fully charged shots. So I think my original build is still viable. Perhaps it is not for everyone though

[halcyon sigil]

kinda forget its there

oh hey, managed to get 208/197 toughness/health

perfectly balanced as all things should be

[sonic wedge]

Wait how do I post pictures, I cant seem to paste screensshots

[halcyon sigil]

need to yap a bit to gain perms

[steady prism]

You have to upload it as a file or copy and paste a link

[sonic wedge]

I have yet to taste that statistics

[sonic wedge]

damn

Thanks for the feedback guys, will try out adjusting my talent tree so I can maximize either one and try to survive havocs

[umbral scaffold]

how good are the combat shotguns now with the recent patch?

r they finally viable?

[narrow frost]

agri has always been amazing

duckbill one is a bit stronger

fire is a bit weak though

[umbral scaffold]

[abstract sand]

agri is goated

[umbral scaffold]

is the dump stat mobility?

[narrow frost]

yes

[abstract sand]

I don't know, man. Is it?

Is the dump stat mobility?

Studies say yes

[umbral scaffold]

mobility stocks in shambles

[unreal bone]

Do XP curious effect the xp gain of weapon mastery levels?

[narrow frost]

no

[rose reef]

ima give it a try

[unreal nova]

Always has been, unless the weapon can maybe dump warp resist, def or Collateral.

[unreal bone]

sadge

Tryna powerlevel so many weapons is bleh

[frank basin]

People hate mobility

Saddest day ever

[lapis osprey]

Is it better to go for a wound/health curio rather than a toughness for havoc40 where you get 1 hit from pretty much everything anyway?

[warm walrus]

which curio perks for vet?

[narrow frost]

Always toughness

Wound has way less value in havoc

And hp is just worse toughess

[warm walrus]

well damn

i wish i knew that before consecrating two hp curios

next time then

[unreal nova]

No point in wound if you go down, it's fairly hard to get picked up unless it's near the end of the "wave".

[umbral scaffold]

i usually keep mobility on some of my melee weapons

[frank basin]

Taxe dueling sword knife

They do need mobility

[void dragon]

with the changes to Taxe, what perks and blessings are being runned now?

[tacit sonnet]

@abstract sand is always correct

[manic vigil]

It's called a dump stat, because I feel like shit if I'm not running fast as hell

BADDA BING BABY

[halcyon sigil]

swapping +3 stamina curio out sure makes me feel like an ogryn

noticed i focused more on shooting though, so thats interesting

[grand perch]

LC trolling arbites warms my heart

[faint beacon]

He's only nice to Male Fatalist thats the funny thing

[halcyon sigil]

... what happens if you can get 100% toughness damage reduction?

[tacit sonnet]

You would have 100% toughness damage reduction

Problem is that you can't have 100% toughness damage reduction

[primal zealot]

doesnt matter cus at a certain point going down eats 2 wounds

[tacit sonnet]

no

Health is way better on h40

Because toughness is hella nerfed

And health isn't

[frank basin]

emperor light nerf the toughness?

[severe jolt]

I think you can actually reach that in Mortis Trials with the right build and a bit of luck. It basically means you only ever take damage from things that ignore toughness, like stuff that causes corruption damage.

[tacit sonnet]

So a lot of people take health curios

[tacit sonnet]

Heavily

[tame lodge]

Havoc itself

-45 flat at high havoc

[tacit sonnet]

And health is always health

ogryns just go for x3 health curios

And get 400-500 health

and not die

[frank basin]

i done that

[tacit sonnet]

I do that

[frank basin]

i made like 575 hp (525?)

[frank ledge]

I disagree to an extend, toughness is a reaction increase for the super gunners, as an example I'll grab 1 toughness and then 3 on secundary so I have 0.3 extra seconds to react and slide away

But ye stacking toughness is not as recomended

The toughness nerfs also don't work for in-tree toughness

[tacit sonnet]

Because it's just -45 flat

why wouldn't they work

[frank ledge]

Because you'd assume it's a not flat like drg

That and it's Fatshark math, we all know about gunner curio stacking

Literally anything is possible with the spaghetti

[tacit sonnet]

what's wrong with it?

[frank ledge]

You'd expect that unless states otherwise you'd get the full benefit of a stat and not a % of a %

[tacit sonnet]

You still get full benefit

[frank ledge]

You don't, you get diminishing returns.

[tacit sonnet]

It's just multiplicative, not additive

What's diminishing about it

I get full 20% every time

[frank ledge]

On the first gunner res, check the second.

[tacit sonnet]

It's just that 20% of a smaller number is less than 20% of a bigger number

I still get 20%

[frank ledge]

That's exactly the issue, you don't get 20% gunner res, you get 20% of 20% so it's a diminishing return for having it

[tacit sonnet]

But if it were diminishing, shouldn't I be getting less than 20% every time?

[frank ledge]

Let me make it simpler, why does already having gunner res at 20% affect me getting more and make it less effective?

[tacit sonnet]

It doesn't make it less effective

You still get 20%

[frank ledge]

You don't.

[tacit sonnet]

yes you do

[frank ledge]

Second gunner resist is 16% effetive res.

Third is even worse

[tacit sonnet]

You take 100% damage, with 20%, now you take 80% damage.
Reduce that by 20% more, now you take 64% damage

Reduce that by another 20%, now it's 51,2%

It's still 20% every time

[frank ledge]

Why. No game does it like this

If I'm stacking shadow res in WoW at 16%+20% is 36%

[tacit sonnet]

Many games to this

It's called multiplicative

[frank ledge]

And makes no sense because it's not an actual 20% gunner res

It's a 16%

[frank ledge]

Which one

[tacit sonnet]

It's 20%

dota

[frank ledge]

Dota is shit, next

[unreal nova]

DOTA2 is a mess though. Everything depends on the skill itself. XD

[tacit sonnet]

Let me finish my h40

And I'll do math

I'll even prove that every curios is more effective than the next one

If you look at it a certain way

[frank ledge]

Torchlight doesn't do it, Wakfu doesn't do it, drg doesn't do it, WoW doesn't do it, ff14 doesn't do it

Why does your resistance care about you already having resistance, it's unintuitive and a good reason people believe you get the FULL BENEFIT of a second res curio when you don't.

It's diminishing returns from stacking by definition, your first res is the biggest difference

[tacit sonnet]

drg literally does it

[frank ledge]

Drg uses flat damage resistances

It simply adds up your total % of dr

Unless we are talking about the glyphid armor pen calculation which is a convoluted mess

[primal zealot]

cus its gunner dmg x(0.8)(0.8)(0.8)

[frank ledge]

Then this should be listed as such.

[primal zealot]

not gunner res x (1.2)(1.2)(1.2)

like cmon man i flunked out calculus and even i get that

although i do wish it was at least additive

[warm walrus]

what's a good weapon for a voc build

[primal zealot]

if not the latter multiple

[warm walrus]

plasma as usual? maybe a lasgun?

[narrow frost]

all

[primal zealot]

most of them

[frank ledge]

This has nothing to do with calculus, it's a choice to not make it additive

The wrong choice and the obtuse choice as with many times with Fatshark

[warm walrus]

hm, alright

im thinking plasma and mk6 power sword

[primal zealot]

you build around weapons and grenade more than anything

[warm walrus]

dueling sword just doesnt vibe with me

[tacit sonnet]

Deep rock literally has most of it's calucations as multiplicative unless it's the same source

[primal zealot]

youre robbing yourself

althought theyre gonna nuke the toothpick

enjoy it while it lasts

[warm walrus]

the exe stance highlight's a godsend on the inferno event though, it bitchslaps flamers and gunners

[frank ledge]

Most, damage res ain't one of them and as such is the simplest to calculate

[warm walrus]

i might as well do one or two runs to experience its glory

[primal zealot]

plasma vet with voc is universally beloved

[warm walrus]

aight bet

[frank ledge]

Reviews will drop again once Fatshark attempts to make m2 actually used on plasma

[warm walrus]

yeah i cant see shit in the inferno event so the highlight helps plenty

is ogryn highlight worth on exe stance

[primal zealot]

hmm

idk dude inferno is pretty sparse in terms of enemy density

[manic vigil]

drops are random

[warm walrus]

really?

huh alright

yeah its the fire effects and shading that messes me up

[tacit sonnet]

@frank ledge Do you agree that if I had 50% damage resistance and 100 health, it would be the same as having 200 health and 0% damage resistance

[frank ledge]

Yes

But I also believe that stats should be clear if additive or multiplicative and we should be able to see them easily.

[tacit sonnet]

Ok, so that's called effective health. Now, with 100 health and one 20% dr curio, we would have 125 effective health.

Because 100/(1-0.2) is 125

[primal zealot]

dude most descriptions are weird and vague and some of the translations are straight up wrong

like i had to translate an ogryn penance into french for a guy and it turns out it was completely fucked up so i reported it as a bug

[tacit sonnet]

If we add a 2nd curio, now we have
100/1-0.36 is 156.25

[primal zealot]

idk if it was ever fixed

[tacit sonnet]

Wow, how could it happen

1st curio gave is 25 effective health

[frank ledge]

This is the issue.

[tacit sonnet]

But 2nd one gave us 31.25?

[frank ledge]

Most games when you see a stat displayed you'd expect the stat to apply regardless of others

[tacit sonnet]

No

[frank ledge]

Atleast anyone that has been brained by mmos and deck builders

[tacit sonnet]

Deep rock literally has most of it's calculations as multiplicative

[frank ledge]

Not DR.

[tacit sonnet]

What's the difference

[halcyon sigil]

but what if 4 vets with

• iron will (+50% TDR when over 75% toughness)
• Close order drill (+33% TDR when all allies in cohesion)
• Exhilirating takedown (+10% TDR for 8 seconds for ranged weakspot kills, stacks 3 times)
  imagine the untouchable guardsman squad

[tacit sonnet]

It's just a calculation

[frank ledge]

That it's not intuitive

So it requires clarification

[unreal nova]

Taking colossus because mortis for funni.

[tacit sonnet]

If you hit a weakpoint that recieves 1.5x damage and have a 20% damage bonus, you don't do 1.7x damage, you do 1.8x because it's multiplicative

[frank ledge]

You can go to any forum, reddit, steam, the fatshark forums and people will still have no idea that your second gunner res provides less effective hp as we called it as the first

[tacit sonnet]

It's a design choice

To make it multiplicative

It's not a mistake

It's intended

They did it on purpose

You just replace the + sign with a * sign

[frank ledge]

When did I claim it was a mistake?

I'm bringing in the issue that it is unintuitive and contrary to gaming practice.

[tacit sonnet]

No it's not

It's a very popular practice to make it impossible to reach 100%

[halcyon sigil]

tbf the accusation of being unintuitive also seems intended considering how little of the games systems are actually explained by the game

[tacit sonnet]

It maybe confusing and unintuitive to know which one is it

[frank ledge]

Good games rather just make it imposible to reach 100% because they actually did the math on it and keep track on the limited supply of dr

[tacit sonnet]

Additive or multiplicative

[tall torrent]

Because each x0.8 DR effect can be calculated as x1.25 hitpoints which is the same thing

[tacit sonnet]

But it's a very popular practice

[frank ledge]

And the ones that don't display it properly unlike this mess

[tacit sonnet]

yes

I always thought for curios to give diminishing returns, each would have to be less than 20%
The resistance would need 1st 20%
2nd 32%
3rd 38%

1st one gave 20%
2nd gave 15%
3rd gave 10%

That's diminishing

[tall torrent]

Just a matter of expression

[tacit sonnet]

But what's diminishing about current curios resistances, I don't get it

[tall torrent]

Diminishing returns is very misleading

[tacit sonnet]

That's how I always thought diminishing returns work

[frank ledge]

English is a dumb language yes

But with diminishing what I mean is, your second application of the stat is less effective than your first.

[tacit sonnet]

So this

And in our case, it's always 20%

[frank ledge]

It isn't, you are getting less effective health per application

[tacit sonnet]

But you are getting MORE effective health per application?

what???

[frank ledge]

Your first application is giving you 125

[tacit sonnet]

Do you agree that if I had 50% damage resistance and 100 health, it would be the same as having 200 health and 0% damage resistance
Ok, so that's called effective health. Now, with 100 health and one 20% dr curio, we would have 125 effective health.
Because 100/(1-0.2) is 125
If we add a 2nd curio, now we have
100/1-0.36 is 156.25

And 2nd one is giving 31.25

So it's more?

[frank ledge]

That's just wrong then

[tacit sonnet]

What's wrong

Each 20% resistance curio is x1.25 effective health

[frank ledge]

In this game, Darktide your second gunner res curio is giving you less effective health because it's done on your 80% damage, not your base

[hollow ibex]

you guys are still at it?

[tacit sonnet]

Yes

[frank ledge]

Which means it's a 16%

[tacit sonnet]

You are correct

[tall torrent]

You’re misunderstanding it

[halcyon sigil]

resistance would be a negative modifier to the incoming damage though

[tacit sonnet]

So, you have 36% damage resistance?

with 2 curios

right

[tall torrent]

Remember that when u arrive at a let’s say x0.8 value

[frank ledge]

Instead of 40%

[tall torrent]

The damage dealt to you is divided by this <1 value

[frank ledge]

And with 3 you get 48% and not 60%

[tall torrent]

So your effective hit point is going up just normally

[frank ledge]

It's the definition of a diminishing return

[tall torrent]

It straight up isn’t

[tacit sonnet]

It isn't

[tall torrent]

It’s the most misleading myth people talk about

[tacit sonnet]

I thought we were over the definition of diminishing returns

[frank ledge]

How the kark is getting 20+20+20 vs 20+16+12 not diminishing returns

[tacit sonnet]

For diminishing returns, every other curio should give less than tha previous.
For diminishing, our damage resistance calculation would have to look like this
1*0.8*0.85*0.9

That's diminishing

but our calculation looks like
1*0.8*0.8*0.8

What's diminishing about getting exactly 20% every single time

[halcyon sigil]

its 20% of a smaller total each time

[tacit sonnet]

Yes

But it's still 20% each time

[frank ledge]

It's a smaller 20% each time which makes every application less noticeable than the last

[tacit sonnet]

How can one 20% be smaller than the other 20%?

All of them are 20%

[frank ledge]

Because it's not applied to your base it's applied on top of each other

[tacit sonnet]

yes, that's called multiplicative stacking

[tacit sonnet]

yes

Multiplicative

[frank ledge]

As I just displayed it's not 20+20+20
It's 20+16+12

[tacit sonnet]

But there's nothing diminishing about it

[tacit sonnet]

because you apply the same 20% to a smaller number

[frank ledge]

For a total of 48% gunner res at 3 curios

[tall torrent]

Let’s say a gunner shot does 10 damage and u have 100 toughness

One DR x0.8 makes gunner shot do 8 damage and u have the same 100 toughness but u can take 12.5 hits

Two DR x0.64 makes gunner shot do 6.4 damage which means u can take 15.625 hits with the same toughness

Three DR x0.512 which allows u to take 19.53125 hits with the same toughness

The number of hits your toughness can take before depleting is going up, each being x1.25 of the previous value, this is simply not diminishing returns like people claim it is, it’s basic grade 3 mathematics

[tacit sonnet]

yes

[tacit sonnet]

so true

I just explained what diminishing is

For diminishing returns, every other curio should give less than tha previous.
For diminishing, our damage resistance calculation would have to look like this
1*0.8*0.85*0.9
That's diminishing
but our calculation looks like
1*0.8*0.8*0.8

[frank ledge]

You are getting less as you yourself claim in your paragraph by applying more of the stat.

That is diminishing

[tacit sonnet]

but he is getting more

[frank ledge]

He isn't, you are applying the same % on a smaller number.

[tacit sonnet]

You can take 10 hits at 0 curios
12.5 at 1 curio
15.625 at 2
19.53 at 3

So, 1st one gave 2.5
2nd gave 3.125
3rd gave 3.675

[frank ledge]

Read my scaling.

If it wasn't diminishing returns we'd have 60% gunner res at 3 and not 48%

[tacit sonnet]

Each one gave more than the previous

[tacit sonnet]

No, it would be additive

[frank ledge]

Which is the karking point it SHOULD be additive

[tacit sonnet]

If we had 60% because of 3x20%

It's called additive

[tacit sonnet]

That's a different topic

That has nothing to do with this one

What we have is multiplicative

And nothing is diminishing

[tall torrent]

I am getting increasingly more effective hitpoints from 10 - 12.5 - 15.625 - 19.53125

[tacit sonnet]

You are getting more with each one, not less

[tall torrent]

If anything the jump from 15.625 to 19.53125 is bigger than the jump from 12.5 to 15.625

This is not diminishing returns

[frank ledge]

Yeah I'm done trying to get this across

It seems imposible to make you see that when a gamer, a consumer sees 20% they expect a + on their stat and not a *

And it also seems imposible to get across that every application is less effective than the last in a multiplicative system, like we currently have vs an additive one

[tall torrent]

You’re simply misunderstanding grade 3 maths

[tacit sonnet]

That's what multiplicative is

[frank ledge]

Read.

[tacit sonnet]

You are correct

But you keep calling it diminishing

[tall torrent]

I know how to manipulate it to make it look like it’s diminishing but it actually just isn’t lol

[tacit sonnet]

Multiplicative IS NOT THE SAME AS diminishing

[frank ledge]

I am correct because I'm COMPARING THE SYSTEM to it's additive form

[tall torrent]

/0.8 is the exact same thing as x1.25

You’re trying to say they’re not

lol

[fleet garden]

both vet and arbites chat are bad today

[tacit sonnet]

Diminishing, addtive and multiplicative are THREE DIFFERENT things

[frank ledge]

But you can't see that for some reason you keep thinking I'm saying the current system is diminishing

[tacit sonnet]

Yes you are

You are getting less as you yourself claim in your paragraph by applying more of the stat.
That is diminishing

[frank ledge]

When I'm talking when COMPARED to if the system was more intuitive aka additive

[tall torrent]

Just because u think x0.8 on and on results in increasingly smaller reduction in number

Doesn’t mean I can’t do the exact same thing and do x1.25 over and over to make the number larger over time

It’s still the exact same calculation

And there is no diminishing returns involved

[frank ledge]

Read the entire 20+20+20 vs 20+16+12 part.

[tall torrent]

u forgot that number is denominator

[tacit sonnet]

That's the result

[frank ledge]

I'm comparing systems.

[tacit sonnet]

Of course the result is smaller because 20% of a smaller number is less than 20% of a bigger number

[tall torrent]

/0.64, even though 0.64 is only -0.16 from 0.8, is still the EXACT same thing as 1.25^2

[tacit sonnet]

It's still the exact same 20%

all 20% are born the same

[frank ledge]

With multiplicative every 20% is the same but applied on a different number that would result in a lower number than additive.

Which was the entire reason I got into it

And as such it's a much simpler calculation and more intuitive to everyone involved

[tacit sonnet]

Yes

[unreal nova]

Why are you all arguing over this again? I thought it was already mathed?

[tacit sonnet]

You are correct

And it's not diminishing

I already gave an example of what would diminishing look like

[tall torrent]

J cannot understand inverse multiplicative calculation

[unreal nova]

Math hurt hed. Nawt rike.

[frank ledge]

All stats should be additive so I don't have to explain to steam that the second gunner res isn't a +20%

[tacit sonnet]

People need to understand that running 3x gunner res curios is not less effective

[frank ledge]

Speak for youself karker, ik what you did

[tacit sonnet]

There's nothing diminishing about it

[tall torrent]

Writing it as +20% is wrong in the first place

[tall torrent]

lol I just happen to be right here

[frank ledge]

That's the point?

[unreal nova]

You just aren't getting 60%.

[tacit sonnet]

NOT AGAIN

[tacit sonnet]

read this entire conversation from the beginning

I explained the same thing like 3 different times

[frank ledge]

That the stat reads +20% instead of what it actually is

[tall torrent]

Too bad nobody in this community can read numbers

[unreal nova]

Yes, it's not additive. Thus, not 60%.

[tall torrent]

Idek what I did to piss J off prior

[tacit sonnet]

yes

[frank ledge]

I'm pretty sure you can check 2 years ago

[halcyon sigil]

[faint beacon]

Running 60% ≠ its bad cause its not additive 60%

[frank ledge]

Back then we gad Darcy here

[tall torrent]

Was I even talking here 2 years ago I can’t remember

[tacit sonnet]

Our entire coversation has been about why resistance curios are not diminishing

And they all give 20%

[faint beacon]

thats a TLDR cause it helps a shit ton with gunner spam

[tall torrent]

Sorry I don’t keep track of everything

[past stratus]

the Vigilant Autogun does some surprising damage if you're clicking heads on non armored targets, damn

[tacit sonnet]

yes

[tall torrent]

If I insulted u in the past I apologize

[frank ledge]

It's worse

[tall torrent]

Oh idk then

[faint beacon]

Shotguns are doing its job better I'll be honest

[tacit sonnet]

J, idk what I did you you, but I'm sorry

[frank ledge]

what

[tacit sonnet]

just in case

[unreal nova]

Still need another buff, feels like.

[past stratus]

I imagine so, I'm just leveling weapons. Not a big fan of the autogun so far but credit where credit is due

[faint beacon]

Vigils are now in a glaring instance of needing a bit of help cause I dont see myself using them when the shotgun is literally leagues better

[unreal nova]

The combats and the DB to a lesser degree.

[frank ledge]

I will never forgive the night you forced me to test 13 times that indeed 2 of the old veteran talents flat out reduced your damage

[faint beacon]

Combat to be clear

Agri just

[tall torrent]

Huh

[frank ledge]

[faint beacon]

does everything the vigils want to do + more

[tall torrent]

U sure that wasn’t someone else

I wasn’t even into DT that much back then

[frank ledge]

I'm sure rawr, I'll never forget

[tall torrent]

I didn’t even play DT much before patch 13

[frank ledge]

the brainblasting realization that Fatshark...bad (at making talent do thing)

[tall torrent]

And patch 13 wasn’t 2 years ago either?

[frank ledge]

It's gonna make 2 years in a few months

[tacit sonnet]

Holy shit

[tall torrent]

I don’t remember

[tacit sonnet]

I'm old

[tall torrent]

Well my bad I guess

[faint beacon]

I think we're coming up on P13 here in

a few months for 2 years

its been a bit

[frank ledge]

In 5 months it'll be 2 years

from patch 13

[tacit sonnet]

I still remember the game being an unplayable hot pile of steaming shit garbage

And look at it now!

It's grown so much

[frank ledge]

Ik that pokemon, you did enough

[faint beacon]

These classes exist

[tacit sonnet]

IT'S NOT A POKEMON

[faint beacon]

anything left out doesn't

[frank ledge]

[tacit sonnet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/627034802574589958/1386658747824214098/toletole-dragon-fire.gif

[frank ledge]

It must be a digimon then

Nothing else exist

[tacit sonnet]

IT'S NOT A DIGIMON

[frank ledge]

We do the evil

[tacit sonnet]

It's a main character from one very mediocre ranobe with some sick art

[frank ledge]

Now I have something to do while grinding thanks

Have a steam gem "Most classes have obvious innate weaknesses. The Arbitrator really doesn't have any from my experience. Zealot is notoriously bad against gunners and shooters. The Veteran struggles with monstrosities and hordes if not built into the right tree. Psyker struggles with monstrosities as well and is the most fragile if anything goes wrong."

User was close to enlightenment

[past stratus]

my current weapon leveling setup is Tac axe and autogun, I took it to the Psykanium and I think it might be the worst setup you could ever have

[frank ledge]

[frank ledge]

Taxing

Specially on a mouse

[sudden cedar]

Zealot is "notoriously" bad against gunners and shooters?

[craggy goblet]

but, ogryn is BEST SAH!

[past stratus]

I don't think it is possible, you can't kill a mauler or a anything with armor