veteran-class

[void dragon]

true...in 3040

[slow spade]

it fucking sucks

[void dragon]

zealot taking the ogryn and Arbites treatment will be so good i feel

*takes ludicuous ammounts of hopium

[slow spade]

ikr, no longer will they have to pay a point tax to get the funny +10% attack speed node

we pray at least...

[void dragon]

we lit those candles to appeace the machine spirit and the oberfed megalodon

[sharp epoch]

I thought vet takes just as much

[slow spade]

yeah but some of those nodes are the obligatory +toughness nodes that all classes are forced to take

was counting more the optional ones

[sharp epoch]

Oh how much ones total I wonder I count 10 on my standard shout ws build

Looks like zealot is also 9-10 😭

[slow spade]

I take 6 on mine but I'm a Focus Target Shout build

8 if you count the obligatory toughness nodes

[sharp epoch]

FT is such a pain to use atleast for recon las if youre using both mouse fingers for aiming and shooting

[slow spade]

I just ping when I can

if I can't ping, then I just focus on firing

[hasty grove]

You guys get good builds?

[sharp epoch]

I feel like I'm losing value if I don't use it frequently which is why I use WS

[slow spade]

ironic you say that because WS is like 90% melee, 10% ranged

[slow spade]

every good Zealot build is this with minor adjustments :c

[sharp epoch]

Yeah you end up with a melee centric build with ws

[slow spade]

if they're feeling spicy, a Zealot might take the book

[sharp epoch]

its kinda like discount zelot

[slow spade]

honestly I find WS overrated because of that

"oh wait I only have melee stacks like 10% of the time"

I just pick up Trench Fighter and go Focus Target for my keystone

unless I'm doing something like Revolver or Shotgun which need the crit

[hollow ibex]

well it's on vet's melee side of the tree

the buffs are kinda underwhelming for most guns

[slow spade]

indeed

[hollow ibex]

the first shot crit is really only good on very few weapons

[slow spade]

I pick up Trench Fighter and stop there

[sharp epoch]

definitely better on the slow firing precision weapons

should be reworked to like straight damage for like a couple seconds instead of first shot is crit

[slow spade]

my tree looks like this

I wish I could get Target Down for the stamina but a Stam curio covers most of it

[sharp epoch]

I like taking the .25 stam delay node for most of my builds

esp for PS because of the push attack spam

[slow spade]

I considered that but I found Target Down better for that

because it's immediate stam and toughness on a specialist/elite kill which you probably do a lot

usually 10% minimum

[sharp epoch]

Yeah the only problem is I don't mark every single elite and specialist that I kill

[slow spade]

then you're getting closer to like 25% stam and toughness on a marked kill

so it's not that bad as long as you mark somewhat often

[sharp epoch]

Also theyre loadout dependent so what weapons do you run with FT?

[slow spade]

the best part about FT is any weapon works with it

weapon choice doesn't matter

I could slap this build on a Vraks mk.5 or a Plasma and get roughly the same benefit

it's also the only keystone that buffs grenades :p

and I like explosions c:

[sharp epoch]

You should run the bolt pistol cheese then

[slow spade]

indeed, I used to but bolt pistol like 5% damage from being great

god if Bolt Pistol could just get Pinning Fire or something

[sharp epoch]

Yeah breakpoints on it are whack

its like just below a one shot on most guys, but doesnt FT get you there

[slow spade]

yeah you need some whack ass build

Kill Zone + Agile Engagement or Executioner Stance

[loud belfry]

https://youtu.be/RRYmVb33VU0

[vague wigeon]

I've decided to try a knife

Emreror's teeth

This thing is OP tho i suck at using it

[willow talon]

Will Fatshark give us dual shotpistol

[serene bough]

hoping vet & zealot get a tree rework thats more like a web

similar to oggy psyker and arb

[hollow ibex]

i imagine they have to

now that they realized the 3 railroads approach is fucking dogshit lol

[serene bough]

yeah

looking at the new arbites tree im jealous

[torn gorge]

[prisma vessel]

I come to share my masterpiece

[void dragon]

Where sparkhead?

[sudden cedar]

I can't relate. I love zealot.

Looks a lot like Grass is greener on the other side.

[hollow ibex]

forgot to add psyker with ogryn and arbties

[unreal nova]

Or 10 shots of full crits, one for every charge you have.

[lusty ether]

have you tried hiding in a ferris wheel and shooting a bunch of running goons, though?

[unreal nova]

It always is, if you are vet. Vet's still the worst class atm.

[loud belfry]

that's why it's a ghost town

[lusty ether]

conga line of goon death

[unreal nova]

It's not like on equal as the third place so still okay.

[lusty ether]

I remember that mission being brutally hard

on the highest difficulty

[void dragon]

speaking of worse classes, is there agreement on the best frag nade veteran?

[loud belfry]

veteran was just a generally bs difficulty. hardened was more fun imo

because of aim flinching when you got shot youd not be able to shoot back very well

[lusty ether]

yeah, but certain missions were absolutely brutal

[torn gorge]

smoke nade ofc

[sharp epoch]

it still would make the slow firing precision weapons that much better

[torn gorge]

your allies wont see when you make a run for it

[unreal nova]

I know. Why I wish it just did that. 1 kill, 1 crit.

[sharp epoch]

Should work something like that like stacks you can use up

[unreal nova]

The trade is better than 1 crit, then increased chance to crit.

Which gets lower and lower the more stacks you burn.

Bloody Arbites don't even need to last hit for their version that's stronger.

[sharp epoch]

welp Arbites is gonna be OP on release thats a given looks like it might replace vet/zealots role too

[slow spade]

it literally has a funny dog

Vet and Zealot stood no chance

[loud belfry]

I wonder what the modern gaming gimmick will be for the next class.

maybe by the time the class comes around there will be a whole new set of modern gaming memes (it'll take years)

[lusty ether]

back to basics

farming sim

[loud belfry]

ult teleports the class to a pocket dimension where they have to tend to a many plot farm (like farmville) and the results of their farming cause them to get buffs or something

im glad I could save the earth by sharing this genius idea

[lusty ether]

that original mafia game from facebook

[loud belfry]

mafia wars

[void dragon]

it looks like it doesnt have the damage to be a direct replacement for zealot, but can frontline well to do the job done

[lusty ether]

I never played it.

Partly because it was like...based entirely on having lots of friends?

And partly because it seemed like a bad game.

[loud belfry]

they were all bad games I yhink

[trim steppe]

Hopefully I can ride the OP Arbites wave to assignment level 40 before a balancing patch

Been hard capped at 37 for weeks

[sharp epoch]

just ride ogryn hes the busted class atm

[pseudo fiber]

I was gonna say

you can probably do it on ogrytn after arbites too

[sharp epoch]

one of the easiest playstyles too just spam m1

[trim steppe]

I mean I clear H40 weekly I just dont have the group consistency to up my clearance level

Once everyone is playing an OP class maybe the winrate will go up a bit and I can get there

[quick seal]

ogryn and arbites gaining back toughness for just existing

sighhhhh

[quick seal]

oh wait you guys were literally just talking about this lol

[knotty viper]

veteran bros is it over

im looking at the arbite skill tree it just looks like better vet

[unreal nova]

Because it basically is.

Half of it sounds like reworks intended for Vet but given to paid class instead.

[knotty viper]

execution order especially

just better focus target

terminus warrant is just better weapon specialist

im really really hoping we'll get a total vet rework later this is actually just everything vet does but better

and in a better laid out tree lol

also one wolf too you just get demo stockpile for ree on top of a DR bonus ??

[trim steppe]

So Arbites is gonna be the p2w class? lol

[torn gorge]

ogryn is still in the base game

so no

[hollow ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/morgan-freeman-true-morgan-freeman-true-nodding-gif-13973817878387504960

[stiff cipher]

It’s been over man

😔

[hollow ibex]

the only thing keeping vet in the game is psword tbh

[knotty viper]

worst part is even if they do rework vet it’s prolly gonna be last lol

im pretty sure zealot was meant to get some updates since it’s the oldest tree in the game

maybe veteran viable in 4-6 months 🔥

[trim steppe]

Vet will get overhauled before DT2 probably

[hollow ibex]

you mean 2030

[trim steppe]

I haven't seen the Arbites tree yet, does he have a way to generate gold toughness

[hollow ibex]

no

[trim steppe]

At least vet retains that advantage lol

[hollow ibex]

lol yeah, though i don't run piss toughness myself

i would if i played havoc prob

[knotty viper]

no but you get toughness for literally existing

arbites get a better version of focus target and weapon specialist too lmao

[hollow ibex]

lol yeah the toughness regen on ourbites is a bit silly

and the stamina economy

[knotty viper]

not even exaggeration like it’s LITERALLY the same skill but better

[trim steppe]

But in terms of team comp for hi havoc and whatnot, vet has a support advantage

[hollow ibex]

wweeeeyoooo

arbites has easily the best stam economy in the game

of any of the classes

[knotty viper]

BONUS DAMAGE TO STAGGER
TOUGHNESS GEN ON STAGGER
PASSIVE TOUGHNESS GEN FROM FORCEFUL
istg lol

i know they gotta make it gooooood for $12 but :/

not even mad it looks fun as hell but why even play vet after monday ?

[trim steppe]

I won't lol

[knotty viper]

arbite speakers SLOW DOWN ENEMY ATTACKS lmao i foresee that being very very strong

[trim steppe]

I already don't since Ogryn and zealot exist

[knotty viper]

in addition to granting slowdown and suppression immunity, toughness DR, reload speed and revive speed

it’s on gameslantern already you can check it

[trim steppe]

Crazy

[knotty viper]

btw the arbite shotgun literally does the same damage the plasma is gonna do after patch. lolmao

[trim steppe]

Looking forward to purging some heretics with it

[knotty viper]

also has a 30% bonus dmg to staggered enemies blessing

also shotgun revolver looks fun

voltaic mine has like a giant AOE stagger + electric stun
shotgun has a blessing for 30% (or 35%?) damage to electrified enemies lol

lone wolf alone is gonna probably be the “meta pick”, you lose the hound but you get passive buffs AND regenerating grenades

[midnight totem]

well... arbites could use free ammo from vets

[knotty viper]

25% ammo passive 🔥

[hollow ibex]

what is my purpose?
you give the team ammo
ohmygod

https://tenor.com/view/butter-robot-gif-9742176530169385188

[knotty viper]

it’s literally what vet currently is, i dont know if that’s, like, intentional ? like maybe we’ll get an actual “sharpshooter” playstyle for vet…. eventually

[hollow ibex]

tbf that exists, you just have to play helbore, ilas or vigil. and it's kinda ass. but it exists

[unreal nova]

I LITERALLY CALLED IT.

[knotty viper]

everything good about veteran is achieved easier and/or better by the arbite tree, bar overtoughness from shout and 1% ammo per 5 seconds, lol

[unreal nova]

Vet is now dispenser with a mini turret glitched on.

[knotty viper]

yeah the problem is that it’s kinda ass like you said

[hollow ibex]

to be clear

[knotty viper]

they need to make executioner’s actually useable i think

[hollow ibex]

you can do very well with those builds

but it's just ass to play

imo

[knotty viper]

and give vet, like, a belt fed machinegun or something

[hollow ibex]

the lack of proper machine guns surprise me lol

only ogryn gets machine guns ig

[serene bough]

does arbites get good boss DPS

[knotty viper]

yeah that and braced autos still feel pretty ass to use

[serene bough]

i know im kinda jumping the gun since theyre not released yet

[knotty viper]

30% passive (1% per stack 30 stacks) damage to monstrosities and elites and whatever

from one of the keystones

also ability cooldown regen from stagger or monstrosity damage lel

[midnight totem]

I'm kinda annoyed arbites grenade goes up to 4 stacks

[knotty viper]

yeah arbites even get a better frag 😭

[unreal nova]

For FREE.

[midnight totem]

Right?

[unreal nova]

Frags requires pathing with crazy taxes for the exact same.

[midnight totem]

and you only get two kraks

[unreal nova]

Or 3, with annoying taxes as well.

[midnight totem]

Yeah

Arbites grenades seem like inbetween kraks and frags, but 4

[midnight totem]

I suppose they don't have the potentially insane regen vet can get but

[knotty viper]

survivalist was deemed too strong and got a 5s cooldown btw

lol

[tall torrent]

The leaked plasma changes are not final

[knotty viper]

yea but still it’s funny to think about

my only hope is we get a vet rework next major update

[tall torrent]

Prob not

[knotty viper]

cuz didn’t they say there will be 4 major updates for the game this year or something

[tall torrent]

Zealot is up next

[unreal nova]

Thus, no point playing vet anymore. Either cough up USD$12 or play Oggy or something.

Maybe the reworked Zealot.

[knotty viper]

i’d be personally fine with zealots getting an overhaul if vet didn’t just get all of it’s class identity ripped in a better form for arbites lolol

[tall torrent]

Arbites kinda does more of zealot’s tricks than veteran’s

[knotty viper]

mmm yeah, i was mainly looking at the keystones ig

you cannot convince me it’s not just better focus target & weapon specialist

[unreal nova]

Thing is, it doesn't matter. It already killed the worst class in the game.

[tall torrent]

It’s not better than weapon specialist at the very least

[unreal nova]

Unless you totally enjoy being ammo dispenser.

[tall torrent]

Middle bottom half pathing is ass

[knotty viper]

also the whole layout of the skill tree is so much better too, like every node is interconnected. if you want an extra grenade on vet thats instantly like a 3 point tax lol

[tall torrent]

Left and right are the main picks

[knotty viper]

middle seemed aight

[tall torrent]

There’s not much interesting going on leading to the middle keystone

[knotty viper]

same crit gain as weapon specialist no?

[unreal nova]

At this point, just unnerf survivalist and just have vets be a walking dispenser.

[knotty viper]

i already dont remember the numbers

[tall torrent]

No

It doesn’t give u any crit chance actually

It also doesn’t reload ur weapons for u

Or buff ur dodges

And arbites has the worst dodge template in the game (tied with psyker)

[knotty viper]

there’s a modifier that gives you 25% crit i swear

maybe i misread

[tall torrent]

Crit damage

[knotty viper]

it’s like per stack or something

[tall torrent]

Not crit chance

[knotty viper]

ohhh

yeah i misread lol

[tall torrent]

And it’s not per stack

It’s only active when u have 30 stacks

[knotty viper]

shotgun revolver for arbite seems tough as hell though

[torn gorge]

counterpoint, with all the crit nodes on the left it may actually be good on autoguns

[knotty viper]

i hope the zealot rework is as good as the ogryn one i want martyr to be useable or something

[torn gorge]

[tall torrent]

Yea, that part is good

[torn gorge]

i have a build i wanna try with brauto

[tall torrent]

He basically spawns in with 23.5% crit chance

[torn gorge]

because it seems very stupid on paper

ye

only thing missing is ammo gen

[knotty viper]

stagger damage bonus and toughness sustain will be crazy though

weakpoints counting as stagger seems really strong

or might be really ass who knows

[tall torrent]

It’s almost mandatory if u want to build melee

[torn gorge]

Sir Kruber with a crusher is also what i wanna try out

[tall torrent]

Which is the best way to build him from what I’m seeing

[knotty viper]

yeah cuz you can rock 2 shields too

also the shield is like a suppressor thing or something too

[torn gorge]

double shield isnt really giving you something more

[knotty viper]

i wanna go for the speakers (already forgot what they’re called) they give SO many buffs it’s crazy

wonder what the potential uptime on that is gonna be though

[torn gorge]

nuncio aquila

[knotty viper]

yah

seems potent

[tall torrent]

They’re kinda the weakest of the three

Castigator and BTL are much more versatile

[gilded rock]

Castigator is sort of* a selfish nuncio-aquila

[tall torrent]

BTL is pretty crazy

20s CD for on demand heavy stagger
But can be as low as 10s with CDR spec

[knotty viper]

well i better get my $12 ready

sent by pigeon mail

[torn gorge]

[knotty viper]

to sweden

[gilded wraith]

I'm gonna close the wallet until I see some semblance of direction for the veteran class from Fatshark.

Other than ammo pack.

[unreal nova]

Ammo dispenser with a mini turret.

[torn gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/tf2-team-fortress2-engineer-engineer-tf2-tf2engineer-gif-22691307

[unreal nova]

I mean, Arbites has impact 'nade which is krak and frag had a baby.

[torn gorge]

does not do the same damage as a krak

and has less blast radius than a frag

and no bleed

[unreal nova]

But also hits a bigger area.

Is why both had a baby.

[crude star]

i have no idea what gun to use on vet anymore..

[unreal nova]

Hits harder on impact than frag, bigger radius than krak (also explodes faster). Starts with 4. Krak is only 2 and frags is 3. You need like tax to get +1.

[torn gorge]

vet has stronger nade regen potential

if you really wanna make a 1:1 comparison

[unreal nova]

RNG.

Baseline is you taxed 1 node for regen.

If regen was innate, sure.

They traded dog for it and other stuff.

[torn gorge]

im just not sure what is the vet identity anymore tbh

is it sergeant shout spam WS with free nades?

is that all?

[unreal nova]

We don't even have an equiv to dog.

[torn gorge]

id like to see more weapon expertise nodes

in a way or another

[unreal nova]

Not with how crazy taxed anything is on vet.

Call me a pessimist, but you know it to be true.

The only way is surprise secret vet rework releasing alongside.

[torn gorge]

thats too much to ask to the dev team

seeing their released schedule in the past

[unreal nova]

I know. Thus... another year of basically being the kid left in dumpster class?

[hollow ibex]

i think we'll get the zealot rework in autumn/winter

and then presumably vet next year

[unreal nova]

Thus, another year of waiting.

[alpine rivet]

What are the three main talent trees of the Veteran Class? I know the middle is like sergeants (And being the greatest motivator on Tertium) but I can't really discern exact jobs and playstyles between the three of them

[unreal nova]

At this point, just unnerf survivalist so we can just do the one thing FS left the class with.

[torn gorge]

left side is supposed to be the sharpshooter

[hollow ibex]

and right side is the cqc expert

[torn gorge]

point is at higher difficulties ammo economy is one of the main friction elements

so it is innately worse

depending on the difficulty and density left side can be competitive

if the economy does not scale alongside its hard to compete with melee though

considering its essentially free

[unreal nova]

Even oggies have us beat in dakka spam.

Just be lucky. 15% chance on all weapons.

[tall torrent]

Sharpshooter
Squad leader
Commando

[alpine rivet]

That's helpful, thanks

[torn gorge]

ogryn gets a grenade launcher and ammo generation that scales with mob density

[unreal nova]

Vets? Enjoy your laspistol.

[wanton vapor]

What’s wrong with the laspistol

[unreal nova]

It's the best "inf" ammo gun.

But it sucks at real densities.

It's great with full auto, but it's not a rumbler.

[torn gorge]

it does not suck by itself

just the fact that you cant full stay ranged diminish the value

as opposed as a quick swap rumbler everything has bleed/burn stacks and is on their ass

[unreal nova]

Thing is, it can't pierce hordes to clear them all or hit things behind a wall of flesh.

You can say plasma, but it hits like a sniper pierce than area around the blast.

In a real situation, a sphere/dome blast is better than a line.

Also the fact it can act like a krak if it comes to that.

A lower direct damage one, but still.

[wanton vapor]

So you want a hordebreaker?

[unreal nova]

Naw. Just, what even does vet have when other class does what vet has but better in some ways.

Well, other than being an ammo dispenser.

[wanton vapor]

So what should vet have

[unreal nova]

It's own thing? It used to at least have 'nade regen...

But mortis gave it to everyone with luck or Arbites.

[wanton vapor]

Vet still has nade regen though

[unreal nova]

Yes, but it's not unique anymore.

The thing it has that no other class has?

[wanton vapor]

So in a perfect world, what unique thing would you want to see for vet

[unreal nova]

And no, the ads behind things barely even work. I get shot behind crouch cover so much, it's a joke.

[unreal nova]

It keeping explosive ordinance and Arbites losing 'nade regen.

Go all into 'nades more for vet.

Customisation and boosting it, and actually give the class proper 'nade launchers that also keep the bigger boom stuff.

The guard has many roles tbh.

[wanton vapor]

But all of vets blitzes, and 6 nodes, are all about grenades already

And idk if people would be happy if vet just turns into a mini rumbler

But yeah, I think arbites would be fine without grenade regen; that’s a little busted , even if it means giving up the dog

[hollow ibex]

i think that's fine

vet has way more nade regen after all

[unreal nova]

Why go into them.

[hollow ibex]

the main things vet need are a buff to base stats, reworked talent tree (including buffs to many weaker talents), and buffs to a shooting playstyle

[unreal nova]

First, is to remove useless tax nodes and give them to vet baseline.

The tax alone kills the class ontop of how meh many nodes already are.

[wanton vapor]

That is true

The tree needs to be condensed

[unreal nova]

I would then slot in a more 'nade focused thing as a side to the middle tree.

Remove grenadier and grant it to all 'nades baseline.

So +1 to all 'nades.

[tall torrent]

Stuff that depict shock & awe tactics

And attrition

[wanton vapor]

“Attrition” and “strike team” are kind of incompatible lol

[tall torrent]

Different branches of skill tree

Attrition to right
Shock & awe to left/middle

[unreal nova]

Still want a blast focused thing.

Mostly for frags and kraks.

[hollow ibex]

how would that work 🤔

shock and awe is kinda what arbites does already too

[unreal nova]

And a proper launcher, bonus if the launcher 'nades are based on your 'nade choices.

Frags are bigger aoe things, krak is like the hyperprop from DRG, smoke is gas.

[limber karma]

hello, bosses are unyielding enemies right?

[unreal nova]

Yes.

[tall torrent]

Arbites doesn’t do shock troop stuff in lore

I’m more referring to like, concentrated firepower for sufdenly overwhelming the enemy because veteran doesn’t really have that atm and that’s one of imperial guard’s most common strategies

[unreal nova]

Or could just be 3 marks you pick from.

[tall torrent]

Only monsters are unyielding

Captains are not

[unreal nova]

Oh right, caps are flak and cara.

[torn gorge]

theres also to add that the current sharpshooter idea kinda fails

[hollow ibex]

oh i see what you mean

[torn gorge]

so maybe add something to the vet tree that let precision weapon have some form of collateral?

to balance them against automatics

[hollow ibex]

how about an artillery strike

[unreal nova]

How do you strike in a building.

[tall torrent]

A joke I made was that veteran should get an ability where he calls in a death strike missile and obliterates the entire map + 14 other hab blocks nearby

[unreal nova]

We would be shot calling a strike in the Archivum.

[hollow ibex]

power of the warp

[tall torrent]

If u didn’t know, a death strike missile is basically a tactical nuke with infinite range

[unreal nova]

Look, we don't talk about the Voidstrike here.

[tall torrent]

It actually has like infinite range on the tabletop game

[unreal nova]

Do you think they will even let us do that in the Archivum?

[tall torrent]

So whoever is playing vs imperial guard, no matter where they place their most important units, they’re always within strike range of a death strike missile

[tall torrent]

Hell yea

[torn gorge]

too costly in points

that meta is long gone

[tall torrent]

still funny

as for attrition @hollow ibex

the joke goes smth like this

traitor primarch of the world eaters, angron, can kill ~30 guardsmen per turn

therefore it only takes >180 guardsmen to win

[torn gorge]

truly the melee blender

[unreal nova]

I guess there's a crater now and the game crashes and your vet is deleted.

[tame lodge]

"Bold words for someone in infinite range"

[hollow ibex]

how would that work tho, attrition is usually something represented at a higher level than a strike team

[tall torrent]

catch a breath is a decent implementation towards it

idea is that veteran should be able to sustain themselves quite well in prolonged combat

except current veteran kinda doesn't do that

current veteran is "u will kill ur way out of problems or u will be buried"

[hollow ibex]

takes 5 steps forward
keels over due to lack of stamina

[unreal nova]

Needs both - stam delay nodes.

[tender pasture]

personal and team stat buffs for chucking a grenade?

for shock and awe

[tall torrent]

one idea I had for smoke was to make anyone inside smoke cloud instantly gain 100% stamina and have x0% stamina cost

[tender pasture]

smoke full of the good stuff

yeah that'd be interesting

[tall torrent]

to facilitate the battlefield confusion that a smoke should cause

[broken galleon]

why does my veteran not buckle his chin strap on his helmet does he think he is john wayne or something

[tender pasture]

I don't think keying buffs to the blitz is a design space that FS has explored much

[tall torrent]

there're a lot of changes that veteran's talents need

[tender pasture]

blitzes have been fairly self contained, any interactions are around regeneration

[unreal nova]

A good amount of buffs first even.

[tall torrent]

I want vet to be good at shutting down specific enemies given correct builds, and be able to sustain themselves in prolonged combat

neither is hitting the mark with the current implementation of veteran

[hollow ibex]

shorten voc cd to 20 seconds

[tall torrent]

smth that could be nice is like

[unreal nova]

Because if you even wanna be like Arbites is standard, vets seriously needs a heavy uplift.

[tall torrent]

make enemies hit by grenade explosion have stagger threshold overrides, or reduced stagger reduction, or modified stagger resistance, thus making them easier to stagger

smth like that

[torn gorge]

again vet should be able to use shooting weapons with greater effectiveness

compared to the other 3 humans

[tall torrent]

current vet achieves neither "brutal shock troop assault" nor "attrition in prolonged combat"

[unreal nova]

Just jack of all traits but meh at it all.

Being generous.

[tender pasture]

just for a laugh as a node: "if your blitz detonates a barrel, both the blitz and the barrel have double effect"

[unreal nova]

Do you want to die?

[tender pasture]

it can, but cover peeking is just not heavily incentivized

[unreal nova]

I can set off every barrel in a room already.

[tender pasture]

one shot a plogryn with a grenade

[unreal nova]

More like, does nothing since things can shoot at me behind cover atm.

[woven coral]

is deathspitter better on recon lasgun than infernus?

[tame lodge]

Well yes but no

[unreal nova]

Infernus dumdum best atm.

[tall torrent]

they can honestly borrow some ideas from rogue trader's implementation of soldier and arch-militant
both fit Veteran decently well

[torn gorge]

give vet a passive that increases the dmg of las weapons on target in cover

[woven coral]

I remember seeing somewhere that infernus doesn't add that much value compared to deathspitter and that brown slow lasgun is better with it than blue fast one with infernus

[torn gorge]

and one that gives solid projectile weapons overpenetration

[tall torrent]

depends on ur needs

[tame lodge]

Burst fire talent

[woven coral]

I'm trying to get the marksman focus penance done and recon seems the best choice to farm it quick

but not sure which mark to use for it

[tame lodge]

XIV with Deathspitter

~3.7 cleave

[woven coral]

I see thanks

[tall torrent]

kinda weird that veteran has only 1 talent for boosting firerate and only temporarily

[tame lodge]

*3.975

[torn gorge]

increased ammo consumption

[tall torrent]

why not give veteran smth like the "two fang" skill from borderlands

every ranged attack u make, X% chance to fire twice

and make it not cost extra ammo

[torn gorge]

as long as it does not impact ammo economy negatively

[tall torrent]

just twinned blast but gun

[torn gorge]

although that would still not promote precision weapons

[unreal nova]

But but but, is just lucky shot that can stack with shocktroop, says random person.

[unreal nova]

Unless you ding ding ding mfer.

[tame lodge]

"Ogryn too strong"

[unreal nova]

A.k.a. get hilariously lucky.

Revolver now meme overkill.

[torn gorge]

nah, that would be only relevant vs bosses/minibosses and result in just wasted procs on everything else

[tall torrent]

make a talent that scales ranged strength (on weakspot hit) based on firerate

the less firerate u have the more it buffs dmg

I'm cooking, I know

[unreal nova]

Shooting crushers.

[tame lodge]

I got 500 shots on this 5 shooter

https://tenor.com/view/justified-gun-spinning-revolver-gun-gif-22041686

[torn gorge]

i think the easiest solution would be like a choice node that gives custom bullet/ammo/whatever that can do either aoe or apply brittleness or a generic damage increase

so you get an easy path selection depending if you want a slow firing weapon

or a faster firing weapon

very basic idea

[tall torrent]

what's aoe for

[torn gorge]

uh mb

area of effect

[tall torrent]

no I'm asking

[torn gorge]

so like

[tall torrent]

what's aoe made for

for ranged

[torn gorge]

that would increase usability in mixed situations

maybe too strong but idk

[unreal nova]

Why not x% chance to double shot that has the same chance to shoot again and again and again.

So keep rolling. Heh.

[torn gorge]

being able to get some stagger and collateral on chaff would increase the value of vigilant weapons for example

[tall torrent]

just did some maths, it would actually be perfect

[unreal nova]

Even for bistol?

You know why.

[tall torrent]

boltpistol firerate is 96rpm hipfire, 128rpm aimed fire

essentially what this talent could be is like

+(60/RPM)% strength to ranged attack on weakspot hit

so in this case, boltpistol would get 62.5% strength bonus to weakspot ranged hits

a big chunk of extra damage that's enough to push 1 taps even for havoc

obv that 60 number can be tuned to smth else

but just an idea

[unreal nova]

I mean, something for the sharpshooter tree.

[tall torrent]

yea this could be a deep unlock

but it needs to be powerful enough to actually push 1 tap breakpoints

[unreal nova]

On slower weapons.

[tall torrent]

obv

[unreal nova]

Should still provide something to fast if someone is using it to path.

[tall torrent]

no

give a diff option in same row

just that doubleshot for free thing above

or a ranged atk speed boost talent

[unreal nova]

But you could use both for med guns.

[tall torrent]

smth that people would actually care about

there's no "med gun"

firerate discrepancy is large enough in this game

[unreal nova]

Is like blue vs green vs brown recon in sense.

[tall torrent]

the fastest firing "slow firing" gun is mk2b inf las at 300rpm

immediately above it is 461rpm infantry autogun & recon

then 500rpm braced autogun mk8

then 600rpm infantry autogun

then 666rpm recon

then it goes straight to 800rpm

the 900rpm

[unreal nova]

Slowest recon is sus?

[tall torrent]

slowest recon is 461rpm

[unreal nova]

Wait, then that's the VIc being sus?

[tall torrent]

ya

[unreal nova]

Extra sus.

Is the devil's gun, I guess.

[tame lodge]

Another W to XIV

https://tenor.com/view/astartes-warhammer40k-spacemarine-armour-laser-gif-17566336

[hollow ibex]

decrease the gif's playback speed by 90% and you'll have a more accurate representation of xiv

[tropic notch]

@tall torrent whats vets base crit chance?

5%?

15 from knife, 5 from base, 10 from desperado, 20 from reso thats 50 crit chance right?

but i gotta build up reso

just read it can stack alot a once

[tall torrent]

5%

[tropic notch]

really leaning towards ft knife

https://tenor.com/view/tole-tole-cat-cat-vro-cat-gif-17161343143756375842

just got someone true survivor with a ft knife on zealot didnt expect it to preform the way it did

[patent prairie]

Vet build 2 tough 1 stamina curio Good?

[hollow ibex]

skip the stam curio imo

either 2 hp 1 tough/2 tough 1 hp

[elder fiber]

I like 1 stam on havoc depending on weapon

[patent prairie]

If I’m primarily range fights 2 tough 1 hp?

[hollow ibex]

i assume this isn't havoc.

generally best to get above 200 hp

then rest into toughness

[patent prairie]

Casual

[hollow ibex]

yeah then the above applies

[patent prairie]

Gotcha

[hollow ibex]

idk/idc about havoc

[zenith hinge]

hey, are grenades affected by most of the damage skills? (like bonus elite/ogryn damage, close damage, ranged damage, etc)

[hollow ibex]

pretty sure they all do

[zenith hinge]

the skills on the skill tree

[zenith hinge]

ranged damage too?

[hollow ibex]

hmm not sure about that

i don't think so

[zenith hinge]

oh what about rending strikes? 10% rending to all weapons. not confident grenades count as weapons

[patent prairie]

What’s a good toughness level? Or should I keep buying my way up to 21%

If I get like 18% then yeah I should be good

[zenith hinge]

toughness curios max out at 17%, chances of that are supremely low so settle for 16%

I prioritize toughness on Vet since Vet just gets tons of toughness passively, your toughness by default in a maxed out tree is super high, unlike Zealot where health gets really high so I prioritize health. making the most of those percentages imo but it's really whatever you prefer. health provides more room for mistakes, toughness cushions gunner frustration

[patent prairie]

Cheers and love 🍻

[hollow ibex]

toughness is very powerful on vet obviously

the main reason you still want 200+ hp on vet is to make bursters and snipers less punishing

makes a huge difference

since those guys will just bypass your toughness without gold toughness

[zenith hinge]

I think you want tdr to protect against that moreso. idk, sometimes I just lose all my toughness but no health loss, not sure what the conditions of my build for that are though

toughness damage bleedthrough is a pretty nebulous mechanic to me

[zenith hinge]

holy shit shredder grenades benefit from rending

and yeah, grenades dont benefit from ranged damage

[hollow ibex]

well tdr doesn't do anything for you when they bypass toughness anyway lol

[zenith hinge]

there's something that can protect bursters and snipers from bypassing your toughness without gold toughness and without simply having more toughness, cant think what else it could be

[hollow ibex]

i don't think there is

there's only hp, toughness and gold toughness in terms of survivability stats

[zenith hinge]

what does tdr do?

[grand perch]

You can absorb a sniper shot with a buttload of tdr, flat toughness and sniper resist

No hp damage dealt

I forgot how much you need exactly though

[agile mango]

if i stagger a monster with frag while holding a weapon with skullcrusher, will skullcrusher proc on the monster?

[hollow ibex]

i think you'd have to do something incredibly stupid

like 3x toughness curio

3x toughness perk

3x sniper resist

iron will active

because snipers do something like 1200 toughness damage

[zenith hinge]

I dont do all that and I do it from time to time

[hollow ibex]

well this is assuming damnation

[zenith hinge]

ye I play damnation

[hollow ibex]

and taking this approach leaves you very vulnerable to bursters

so it's a terrible idea anyway

[zenith hinge]

whatever I'm doing in the cases I'm referring to works against both. I dont use burster or sniper damage reductions either

[hollow ibex]

you running voc?

[zenith hinge]

no idea what the threshold I'm hitting is though

[hollow ibex]

because otherwise you'd be taking damage

[zenith hinge]

without gold toughness. I know gold toughness prevents the bleedthrough

[hollow ibex]

you can test it in psykanium

[hollow ibex]

that's impossible

bursters always bypass toughness

without piss toughness

[zenith hinge]

I've done it more than enough times to tell you it isnt, I just have no idea what combination of factors is allowing me to

[hollow ibex]

well something else happened

because it's just not how the game works

[zenith hinge]

clearly it is

[tall torrent]

only global non-finesse damage bonuses apply
ex: melee/ranged dmg don't affect explosions, weakspot dmg doesn't affect explosions

[hollow ibex]

ok yeah there's this for snipers

[hollow ibex]

you prob remembered incorrectly

test it in the psyk

and post it

[zenith hinge]

I've done it without all this

also I cant test is psyk cause console

[hollow ibex]

ok, test it in the psyk

and post it

[zenith hinge]

I cant cause console

[tall torrent]

what did u have at the time

[hollow ibex]

he tells me he took no hp damagewhile being burstered/sniped

and without golden toughness

[tall torrent]

burster no
sniper possible

[hollow ibex]

that's what i told him 🤷

[tall torrent]

sniper shot deals 122.5 dmg with 10x multiplier vs toughness

[zenith hinge]

I do have close order drill and iron will plus a tdr node at 140 toughness. that's been enough for a burster at least once that I recall quite clearly. I had a zealot at the time so it's possible the zealot tdr aura was also active

[tall torrent]

and has full spillover

[tall torrent]

was that damnation?

or lower diff

[zenith hinge]

yea

I only do auric damnation and occassionally havoc, usually maelstrom

[tall torrent]

did u run infiltrate with TDR talent

cuz that's a way to do it

[zenith hinge]

no

[tall torrent]

basically u need to have >1225 effective toughness or gold toughness

otherwise u will take full sniper shot dmg

[hollow ibex]

there's no partial blocking?

[tall torrent]

full spillover = if attack breaks player's toughness, inflict full damage as if player had no toughness

[hollow ibex]

oof

yeah fuck snipers

[grand perch]

Amen

[zenith hinge]

close order drill and iron will is 99% and 50%, both active on 140 toughness should get pretty close to 1000 effective toughness. again not sure if teammate factors got me tdr as well but that could be the rest

[grand perch]

I hate them more than they probably warrant because I frequently simply do not see their laser

[narrow frost]

Zealot benediction/chorus DR

[hollow ibex]

that's still not saving you from bursters tho

[hollow ibex]

this happens to me when half the fucking map is on fire

[narrow frost]

Doesn't ogryn also give DR to team somewhere?

[hollow ibex]

and the red laser just blends in with the fire

[grand perch]

Or they're aiming from behind so you get 0 chance to notice it beforehand

[zenith hinge]

yeah I doubt those two skills alone are carrying all the weight, but they'll get me pretty far. it's probably teammate skills I didnt know about doing the rest of the work

[grand perch]

I'd like a little red lens flare as a tell a sniper is aiming at you

[zenith hinge]

they do have that actually (of course you have to look at them)

[hollow ibex]

the point is, there's a massive laundry list of requirements to resist sniper shots without piss toughness, and it's not practical

[tall torrent]

close order drill is x67% damage at full coherency
iron will is x50% damage
at 140 toughness, it'd give u around 418 effective toughness against 1 attack
you need almost 3x that to tank a sniper shot and not take health damage

[grand perch]

Not exactly what I mean

[tall torrent]

I'm afraid u remembered smth wrong

[hollow ibex]

how much is 3x sniper resist again

[tall torrent]

x(0.8^3)

[hollow ibex]

oh so like 50%?

[tall torrent]

that'd push him up to ~816 effective toughness for 1 shot

still missing like 400+

[zenith hinge]

also the laser pokes past you so should be able to see it even when looking the wrong way in some cases, and their warning sound is hard to miss lol. snipers are possibly the mist telegraphed enemy in the game

[tall torrent]

like I said, it's a super difficult and niche breakpoint

[grand perch]

0.512

[hollow ibex]

yeah i'm going to stick with my 2x hp curio thanks

i don't take CoD to begin with

so i have no chance of getting enough tdr lol

and i have the best luck with bursters + teammates

[grand perch]

Yeah that's great. I'll never be able to dodge sniper shots from the windup sound alone if I don't know they're there in the first place

It's a reaction time issue

[zenith hinge]

definitely didnt but again dont know what all factors were stacked so cant give all the details, but I've pretty frequently taken no damage from both bursters and snipers without damage reduction to either and without gold toughness, and as a player who prides himself on his obersevational skills and understanding of game design, I can assure you I havent led you astray, just cant keep track of dozens of nearly invisible buffs during intense combat

[tall torrent]

maybe if u recorded smth we can break it down

[zenith hinge]

fair. I have to know in advance too

[zenith hinge]

I'll record when I see it again

[grand perch]

If only consoles would have the auto record feature of steam for example. It's really convenient to analyze something like this

[zenith hinge]

I can record backwards really easily, I just didnt plan to break down why I didnt take damage since I've gotten comfortable with the possibility and tossed it up to high toughness+tdr stats

[muted elk]

holy shit the leaked nerf... i thought theyd atleast keep it a good weapon plas is goinf to be completely fucking gutted wtaf... no cleave anymore and massive damage reductions across the board... well vet is gonna be the new pre work ogryn holy shit. Convinient that its being nerfed around arbites tho almost like theyre gonna make a class op so u buy it

Look what they dont to my boy.. they massacred

[sudden cedar]

Say they nerfed the Plasma Gun without the Arbites, this would probably result in a lot of negative reviews because "my crutch got nerfed, now i have to learn how to play the game"

Which isn't really a good representation of how good the actual game is

Combining it with the Arbites release keeps that balanced

[tall torrent]

plasma change is not coming next patch, it's not finalized (and frankly there's 1 change that doesn't make mathematical sense)

[sudden cedar]

If that is so, it is quite sad that it has to be.

[frank ledge]

Arbiters inly has shotguns and revolvers

Not a vet

[tropic notch]

it'll be fine vet has pretty good options like dbarrel and revolver

plasma is overrated anyways

gale was right about the vet cope

[void dragon]

Plasma should be more about using that risky mode, hopefully it will be juiced so you use M1 for fodder gunners and the super shot to down crushers and the like

[grand perch]

I swear the "plasma nerf" is the new pearl clutching

[tall torrent]

Busting out Microsoft PowerPoint to make a stagger process chart

[void dragon]

Why people dislike using that? Are folks so scared of the Psyker ways?

[grand perch]

Dear god man, don't do it

[tropic notch]

yeah

[tropic notch]

chainsword vet havoc 40 run

https://tenor.com/view/dog-meme-gif-14815563858826670211

[midnight wyvern]

is there a mod that would keep my grenades "equipped" after throwing one? or an option perhaps?

[grand perch]

Not one I'd know of

[void dragon]

And still afraid of exploding gun

[midnight wyvern]

[midnight wyvern]

In order to do my funny wake up and kill DH before it gets to play the game I need to throw the second krak but sometimes, probably DT jank it doesn't equip the grenade straight away even though im spamming the button

would rather just not have to press it lol

[midnight wyvern]

found one

joyous

[muted elk]

wel lthink about this, if they nerf it that hard without giving it a ton more ammo theyre just making the game far more artificially difficult and relying on ammo drops and crates. theyre already rare in havoc 40 and thats the reason ppl pixked plas so ofren bc its like the only vet gun w super efficiency ammo wise. just seems like a backwards decision, going from lore accurate plasgun that they were praised for frequenly by fans of the series when other games dont dare to do that, its just backwards and afaik the only ppl cheering it on are mad bc plas vets get their name on the screen more often? Like theres nothing to take its place except a paid dlc (no plas pistol btw)

[muted elk]

haha ur joking? revolver in havoc is stupid

very funny ragebait

[muted elk]

Ill enjoy it while i can. Then ill not play vet again ever tbh

[muted elk]

Its a symptom of a greater problem, theyre not offering anyrhing to counter the massive nerf. we'll still be low on ammo all the time.

ammo is already scarce U cant get randos to give u any most the time.

[grand perch]

Well don't get hit by the door on the way out I guess

[muted elk]

What it means is the psyker meta will be enforced

Well i care ab9yt rhe game. Id hate to see it die it has potential

[void dragon]

Meanwhile me using my frag Nader Stealth vet, looting all and giving it to the less fortunate of my team: idk, it is fun imo

[muted elk]

Careless nerfs kill the fun and divide the community!

[muted elk]

U have to be really really good at rhe game to play like that in havic, lmao 🤣

Bolter is now the only viable vet pick for 40 and thats barely cutting it

[grand perch]

Lol

[void dragon]

I can survive, my team on the other hand, they are the reason I run shout most of the time

[grand perch]

Lmao even

[void dragon]

Rotfl if you can believe it

[muted elk]

bro r y the type who runs hellbore?

[tall torrent]

I feel like I don't want to participate in this conversation

read too many bad takes today

[pseudo fiber]

All we do is argue in this chat

[tall torrent]

enough is enough

[sudden cedar]

Combat Shotguns work in Havoc 40.

[void dragon]

Honestly, very wise of you mate

[grand perch]

Among others. My normal build is laspistol X

[sudden cedar]

Tac Axe and Las Pistol

Sounds like fun

[tacit sonnet]

What do I drop to get weapon specialist? Or just leave it like this, not worth?
https://i.vgy.me/Z9ZEnM.jpg

[pseudo fiber]

What's the context of this build

[tacit sonnet]

ps 6 and recon VId

I mean recon XII

[pseudo fiber]

Drop onslaught

Poopy

[grand perch]

In that setup the only reason to take WS would be to improve pswords dodges and the attack speed. Wouldn't recommend

I'd rather drop onslaught and go for bring it down

There's even a spare point for demo team then

[tacit sonnet]

but damn I like onslaught

[grand perch]

It's not bad on recon but overrated

[tacit sonnet]

I still wanna make a build with on onslaught. I'll do what you said, but I want a 2nd build that still has onslaught

If you couldn't drop onsalught, what would you drop to get weapon specialist or would you leave it like this?

[grand perch]

If you wanna keep it just play without weapon specialist it's not that good on this weapon setup

Probably shock trooper if i absolutely had to?

[tacit sonnet]

Damn, with recon?

It effectively gives me like 30-40% more ammo

So it's either drop onsluaght or keystoneless vet best vet

[pseudo fiber]

Keystoneless is fine

[tacit sonnet]

Vet really does need a 4th talent tree rework

Also, what about havoc? do you think recon VId is a good weapon for havoc?

I mean recon XII

[grand perch]

Recon is probably the most point taxing weapon. Keystoneless is absolutely fine

Recon is excellent for havoc

[tacit sonnet]

But probably without onslaught, don't think I'll be able to kill many crushers with it

[grand perch]

That's an ammo dump anyway, not great in havoc

Rely on psword or (god forbid) dueling sword for that

[tacit sonnet]

What would be the ideal ps and recon setup for havoc?

I can't decide on perks and blessings

[sudden cedar]

Infernus, Headhunter.

Burning Stacks and getting them faster.

[tacit sonnet]

And what about ps?
I have this

[sudden cedar]

That is what i have.

[tacit sonnet]

https://i.vgy.me/wfiVuw.png

But I need to drop 2 out of 3 talents choosing from weapon specialist, demolition team and field improv to get bring it down and two shot crushers

Or I leave all 3 but get 25% carapace instead of elites

Or not do anything and leave with a crusher 3 shot

[pseudo fiber]

You can do cara instead

I think I run flak cara on my havoc 40 build

[quiet valley]

Don't run Onslaught, its a waste of talent points

just kill Crushers with Melee

[tacit sonnet]

For aurics I will run onslaught and you can't stop it

But it's pretty much useless for havoc and I'm trying to decide on my h40 setup with recon rn

[quiet valley]

Ok waste 4 talent points to kill 1 enemy type ig

[tacit sonnet]

3*

[steep flower]

nah dont listen to him; loki good if you know what you're doing

[tacit sonnet]

ok fuck that's not enough and that's still a three shot

[quiet valley]

Onslaught gives you crusher ttk and some boss dmg, thats it

[tacit sonnet]

I need bring it down for 2 shot breakpoint

[steep flower]

it does but its mainly for your team not you; ppl tend to say 'you dont need it' 'gives you' ect. Where is the TEAM in all of this? Think of your team & you gonna win more

[tacit sonnet]

I think I'll just live with a crusher 3 shot I guess, other 3 talents are way too good

[steep flower]

nice profile pic btw

[tacit sonnet]

Thanks

[quiet valley]

Whats the % chance that you wont have a Thunderous Ogryn, or Penetrating Flame Pskyer or Zealot?

[tacit sonnet]

Do you know where that pfp is from?

[quiet valley]

DW about breakpoints too much, Havoc 40 is hell for pure breakpoints, due to HP scaling and different modifiers/buffs/debuffs

[tacit sonnet]

Surprisingly you're the second person from this server to know that. It never happened before anywhere else

[steep flower]

that % don't matter; what matter is you can help your team (and for the record; purgatus psykers usually run blaze away as far as i've played - zealots use penetrating more of all things )

[steep flower]

sadly no

but i like it

when i saw it

[tacit sonnet]

ok, but still thanks

[open ravine]

I am so surprised that the shock maul family is getting a buff as the mk III is a really good weapon

[steep flower]

i prefer angi; both are good & underrated

[tacit sonnet]

here's the og, I just photoshopped the tiny sweat drop for my pfp

[quiet valley]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9ef208ab-10b0-4906-ad1a-edbade89f9ad/h40-recon-xiv

This is probably the best Recon MK and setup for a ranged focused vet

It's zero ammo pickups required kills every enemy type in the game except Crushers with ranged

[tall torrent]

does this make sense

[tacit sonnet]

I'll try this as my h40 setup

https://i.vgy.me/XKK7o3.jpg

i hope it looks like it makes sense for h40

[tacit sonnet]

context?

[open ravine]

I like the MK III as it has some nice wide light attack then get a sexy overhead smack down loop on heavy chained attacks

[tall torrent]

explaining stagger calculation

[quiet valley]

Looks decent, I would drop Field Improv for Kill Zone tbh

[open ravine]

Which las you running

[tacit sonnet]

What does ECS mean?

[tacit sonnet]

VId

I mean XII

[steep flower]

pretty nice; onslaught on anything exept XII recon i can understand, not enough firerate. Use catch-a-breath; gives more value than get back in the fight

[tall torrent]

end cumulative stagger
sum of the attack's end stagger, and that enemy's existing stagger pool

[willow tendon]

why 14

[steep flower]

nah field improv saves games & lifes; keep it

[open ravine]

Meant family as I don't really know all the las marks yet

[steep flower]

is that for recon?

[tacit sonnet]

yea. it makes sense

Though it took a bit of figuring out

[quiet valley]

I do recommend CaB for most players but the ability to restore stamina on demand on a deadshot recon lets you control your dps burst if you need it, Between Confirmed Kill and Target Down you will have plenty of toughness

[tacit sonnet]

https://i.vgy.me/Ep0msh.png
https://i.vgy.me/TAE1iq.png

[quiet valley]

Recon is not the best weapon to Weapon Spec i'll say, it can definitely work tho

[steep flower]

Get back in the fight is the one that activates when you run out of toughness mah guy

[quiet valley]

yes

[tacit sonnet]

Why?

It takes literally one kill to activate weapon spec

[quiet valley]

WS benefits a lot from 'Hot Swap' weapons

[open ravine]

The brittleness perk works nicely for recon and you only need to move 2 talent points to get it

[steep flower]

crit works only for 1 bullet

[quiet valley]

You only get the crit chance for 1 shot

[tacit sonnet]

if you're talking about onslaught, that's 3, not 2 and it would be complete dog for h40 anyway

[tacit sonnet]

i literally don't care, it's just for melee

[steep flower]

if only you knew

but thats ok

[tropic notch]

Me when I spread misinformation

[steep flower]

that i can understand; primarily for melee

[tacit sonnet]

I don't

[tropic notch]

Me when I’m uninformed

[steep flower]

ok; are you free tonight? we could play & could show you & explain stuff

[quiet valley]

Post your Onslaught tree Im curious

[tacit sonnet]

what perk are you talking about

just tell me

I don't see any brittleness talents for 2 points

[steep flower]

i hope i will have enough time; waiting for a guy to pick me up

[steep flower]

onslaught

[tacit sonnet]

I am not taking fucking onslaught on h40

[tropic notch]

Havoc vet should be melee focused with your ranged being for specialist

[tacit sonnet]

it's worth 3 points and it's not even that good

[steep flower]

i can show you it can be

[quiet valley]

Nah you can go pretty much full ranged build zero pickups

[tacit sonnet]

my vet in emperor, i literally play recon with onslaught 90% of the time

[tropic notch]

[steep flower]

ppl tend to disregard debuff builds cause 'nooooo does not kill fast enough/mah scoreboard'; its for the team

[tropic notch]

That’s silly

[tacit sonnet]

It doesn't debuff anything except monstrosities

[steep flower]

crushers

[quiet valley]

H40 Gloriana Rampaging 21st, zero ammo pickups Recon XIV

[tacit sonnet]

They literally die in 2 seconds

[steep flower]

not always; seen teams which folded cause no brittle

[tacit sonnet]

Onslaught will not solve that problem

Bolter will

Ogryn with club will

Or just any ogryn will

[grand perch]

Please make your scoreboard show ranged Vs melee damage dealt for future reference. I'm curious

[quiet valley]

Onslaught does not apply debuffs in the same league as other class AOE debuffs, why gimp your entire build for a sporadic bursts of brittleness on a single target?

[tacit sonnet]

rending trauma psyker will also solve that problem

Applying brittleness to a single crusher does not do anything

[steep flower]

how many times you've seen trauma staff in havoc? rarely i say

[quiet valley]

I'll have run some new ones, I just hate that kind of clutter on my board

[tacit sonnet]

There are like 10 crushers, 5 bulwarks, 4 maulers and 8 ragers running into you

[tacit sonnet]

I literally played with it today

[quiet valley]

Ofc the dmg is padded a bit by Shredders

[tacit sonnet]

Applying brittlesness to one of them will not do anything

[steep flower]

its a rare sight

[tacit sonnet]

Granted it was only h30 so i also took shriek instead of shield

But i played with it h40 before

[grand perch]

You wouldn't like my day job

[steep flower]

'sporadic' almost instantly 40% brittle debuff which helps with dmg, expecially DoT MAN

[quiet valley]

Yeah but your Pskyer/Zealot waves their fire aoe in that general direction and does that, but for the entire screen?

Ogryns with Thunderous also have cleave

[steep flower]

still helps

[steep flower]

hits 1 crushers

[tacit sonnet]

It applies brittlness to everything hit

Meanwhile onslaught costs 3 talent points and slowly applies brittlness to a single enemy

[quiet valley]

Recon has pretty much zero cleave, and anything your are brittling is going to die before anyone can really take advantage of the debuff stacks anyway, seeing that you are spraying into its head...

[frank ledge]

Monstruosities

[quiet valley]

Sure but why wouldn't the 3 other class options already be appling the brittleness stacks, they all have better options to apply brittleness.

Its just a waste of talent points imo

[tacit sonnet]

it is for h40

[willow tendon]

I don't understand. Brittleness helps with maniacs, gunners, maulers. You can't rely on your team in any coop pve game

[tacit sonnet]

On aurics there are not as many bosses and crushers that it still kill everything quick enough

And ammo is very abundant

I literally played games with 0 melee damage

[quiet valley]

It helps, but you could just take better nodes to kill those enemy types better, with the caveat of having to kill Crushers in melee.

[normal bay]

Going an entire game without bonking a heretic with a shovel

[willow tendon]

the better nodes being?

[quiet valley]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9ef208ab-10b0-4906-ad1a-edbade89f9ad/h40-recon-xiv

This is the best way to setup recon for Havoc atm

[loud belfry]

there are no resourvc :(( we die

[tacit sonnet]

Are there any resources or tables or websites that have adm for all the weapons?

[steep flower]

Its always good to have and thats my point; you never know

[grand perch]

What would space jesus do

[loud belfry]

make wine out of water i guess

at least its got some calories

[grand perch]

Sweet

[tall torrent]

brittleness' value is wildly overestimated most of the time

it's simply better to use attacks with higher innate ADMs

onslaught is too costly for what it's worth

[willow tendon]

well you only have 1 attack on recon lasgun

[grand perch]

Missing the point

You have a melee weapon

[quiet valley]

Its just too much investment to make your ranged weapon to kill Crushers, if you wanna shoot Carapace with ranged, get yourself a Helbore MkIV

[willow tendon]

I just told you it's not only useful against crushers

[quiet valley]

You can ask Path about the actual math for Brittleness, but it doesn't add nearly as much as you would expect.

[drifting oak]

The only APPRECIABLE boost is against crushers

everything else it's moral support and won't meaningfully affect TTK/breakpoints

[tacit sonnet]

I think it adds 1 to 1 until adm becomes 1.00. Then it adds 1/4 and it hard caps at 100% brittlness

[tall torrent]

the hard cap for regular brittleness is 40%

[pseudo fiber]

And when arbites comes out brittleness will be there job

[tall torrent]

nah

arbites has rending

25%

no need for brittleness

[steep flower]

Help is help; having multiple sources covers potential loss of a teammate, be it physical or them being occcupied with something else

[pseudo fiber]

The MK8 shotgun shell

[tall torrent]

I'm honestly more leaning towards slug shotgun / shotpistol for arbites

[tacit sonnet]

I remember something caps at 100%

What was it then?

[tall torrent]

VII combat shotgun hits some insane monster dps numbers after buff

[tall torrent]

was a mistake, ADM boost has no innate cap

ADM conversion starts when total ADM exceeds 100%

[tacit sonnet]

ok

[steep flower]

I wonder how useful shotpistol is gonna be vs shooters & gunners (in terms of blocking their shots)

[tall torrent]

which is why brittleness' value is wildly overestimated

[pseudo fiber]

They both seem solid. I just like the big chunky shotgun

[tacit sonnet]

Brittleness it still really good

[tall torrent]

4r capacity + inconsistent 1 tap over range kinda sounds cancer

[tall torrent]

it's good for what it is

but it's not much more than that

[tacit sonnet]

Rending trauma is still kinda insane

[tall torrent]

and people like to pretend that it's much more than what it is

[pseudo fiber]

So you think the mk3 is better?

[tacit sonnet]

It's just too good at applying brittleness to literally everything in an enormous radius

[tall torrent]

no, I'm saying I'm going for the buffed combat shotgun lol

[slow sky]

Rending/brittleness effects cap at 100%

[tacit sonnet]

path just said it caps at 40%

[willow tendon]

I get 10% or more dps increase bodyshooting maniacs with onslaught. I am not convinced that focus target with added mechanical complexity is better

[tall torrent]

there're different types of brittleness

[slow sky]

Im talking the actual effect on your damage

[pseudo fiber]

I meant more your thoughts on both arbites shotgun marks

[tall torrent]

model looks cool

[slow sky]

The standard brittleness stacks cap at 16, which is 40%

But the actual effects that brittleness and rending combined have on your damage come to a hard stop at 100%

[tacit sonnet]

so I WAS right

[tall torrent]

if tagging enemy is enough to add mechanical complexity, u may want to change ur keybinds

[tall torrent]

I checked with kuli and this is not true

was a mistake he made

[tacit sonnet]

It hard caps at 100%

[slow sky]

Ive tested it myself

The numbers line up, and I've verified with crab

[tacit sonnet]

So I WAS NOT right

[tall torrent]

bleh

[tacit sonnet]

So I WAS right

[tall torrent]

idk now

welp

[slow sky]

The 1:4 damage conversion is still a thing, but that stops at 100%

[tropic halo]

https://tenor.com/view/euah-kitten-kitty-cat-small-gif-18334454797635962439

[tacit sonnet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1280499337843048448/1384208717695942778/car-garn47.gif

[pseudo fiber]

Noone actually understands darktide it's all based on vibes

[tall torrent]

so, lemme get this straight
if base attack's ADM is 60%
120% ADM boost would give it:
100% ADM + how much more damage?

is it (120-40)/4 = 20% more damage?
or is it (100-40)/4 = 15% more damage

[grand perch]

I'm confused now

[tacit sonnet]

That's what I always assumed

[slow sky]

120% adm boost as in 120% rending? Like uncanny?

[grand perch]

And we're not even talking about exploit weakness adding brittleness beyond the cap

[tall torrent]

ya

[tall torrent]

critical brittleness is part of that ADM boost

cole is saying there's a hard cap to ADM boost as a whole

[grand perch]

Ah now i understand

[slow sky]

The last 20% is thrown out