yes well I think they also do smoke and mirrors things so you don't notice it. Like the gunners firing slower than they normally would, to keep the attack cadence steady.
#veteran-class
sullen jackal
frail skiff
I use it on my las pistol/DS havoc build
cyan verge
bold
sullen jackal
With that many gunners, you usually don't notice if the gunners fire at 300 RPM or 1000 RPM right?
cyan verge
that's true
swift river
You were right, it was right above that
sullen jackal
umbral scaffold
To be bold or bald, that's the question
swift river
Thank you, dunno why I couldn't suddenly find it 😄
frail skiff
To be bold or bald, that's the question
cyan verge
I use it on my las pistol/DS havoc build
I can 'kind of' see it on a las weapon it's just that if you're also costing 2 per shot then like that's still only 7-10 shots or something before you need to reload
umbral scaffold
https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682
Go for it
terse idol
With that many gunners, you usually don't notice if the gunners fire at 300 RPM ...
But this still in the context of high level havoc isn't it?
sullen jackal
anyway yeah there's also the slot system which is basically a number of slots around you. also there's some weirdness sometimes
cyan verge
To be bold or bald, that's the question
so bald and so foolish
sullen jackal
like. Shotgunners are melee! this is why smoke grenade is completely and utterly worthless garbage vs them :v
terse idol
I imagine they also fire enough to barely make a difference in damage
cyan verge
the codex astartes names this maneuver steel reign
umbral scaffold
so bald and so foolish
Ogryn meta
terse idol
like. Shotgunners are melee! this is why smoke grenade is completely and utterly...
Huh?
Wait I never heard this
umbral scaffold
Huh
terse idol
Do you have information regarding it?
sullen jackal
But this still in the context of high level havoc isn't it?
well the test there to see if it still applies is simple. Walk into a room of nothing but like 30-50 soldiers. Do they all fire at once? Or does only a few of them fire at a time every second or so?
terse idol
Cause it isn't even in the wiki
sullen jackal
Do you have information regarding it?
ok admittedly that's from tanner so meh you can look at it on their site. But I did do a code dive after it.
terse idol
🥹
sullen jackal
Smoke grenades do two things: The first thing they do is create a fog blocker on the map(which some map modifiers ALSO have)
The second thing they do is, when you are inside the smoke cloud, they apply a buff on you which makes all line of sight checks fail unless the enemy is inside a smoke cloud.
This matters for like... two things. First is aggro: but if they're already in a combat state, this doesn't matter and they have perfect vision of you.
Second is ranged attacks. This also tends to not be the... most reliable, and as you might know from gunners they will still shoot at you with perfect accuracy even if you're hiding behind cover and not visible. As long as they started shooting. (until you stagger them with suppression and/or kill them)
terse idol
I'm gonna roll it back abit
So shotgunners
Aren't considered melee
Dunno where tanner is getting this
The smoke works of you're not insid
It is in essence a loS blocker
sullen jackal
That's the first thing they do, I mentioned that. Fog blinder.
terse idol
You can put it in front of you on enemies that already aggroed to you and they will lose los
sullen jackal
If they're more than a certain distance away from it, and the LOS check passes through the fog, it fails.
odd sparrow
Smoke also gives the stealth buff. Throwing at your feet is pretty good
sullen jackal
it could also have been tweaked at some point
terse idol
But this fog isn't the same as fog on ventilation purge
odd sparrow
Yeah snipers often penetrate the ventilation purge
terse idol
Naturally
placid portal
Smoke also gives the stealth buff. Throwing at your feet is pretty good
Smoke yourself while doing auspex checks on that phage tree 
sullen jackal
the 'melee' thing is probably because shotgunners movement are that of melee types like maulers, and they won't strafe or hide behind cover
terse idol
the 'melee' thing is probably because shotgunners movement are that of melee typ...
Well
They do follow the rules of smoke
sullen jackal
yes gunners and ranged units in general have general logic to stay at range, which is tuned up for both gunners and especially for snipers
(hence why they like to run away when you get close if you didn't kill them already)
terse idol
Like i skimmed the video thst tanner said about shotgunners and no where did it say they ignore smoke
Alot of that video was about dodging
sullen jackal
eh they'll at least move up to the smoke and start shooting when close enough
odd sparrow
A lot of ranged units will also move up when they lose LoS bc of smoke
sullen jackal
it seems to be more like shotgunners are a 'melee unit' for movement that are holding a shotgun turret which fires automatically.
terse idol
I needed a video something fierce
odd sparrow
Its hilarious seing gunners running into melee whwn you smoke em
terse idol
A lot of ranged units will also move up when they lose LoS bc of smoke
As far as I've played ranged enemies don't start shooting if they're also in the smoke
Unless I misunderstood something
odd sparrow
They will stop shooting and start running closer to attempt to regain LoS
sullen jackal
if both units are in the smoke, they should pass the los check anyway. Fog blocker are ignored if they're close enough to the smoke. The stealth buff is ignored if they are inside the smoke.
odd sparrow
Which is very funny
terse idol
At that point regular shooters pull out their melee yeah
sullen jackal
oh right i also vaguely recall weird AI logic based around whether or not you have your melee out or not 
terse idol
if both units are in the smoke, they *should* pass the los check anyway. Fog blo...
What is the stealth buff?
I haven't heard theseee
sullen jackal
What is the stealth buff?
throw smoke at your feet, stand in the cloud, look at your buff bar. step out of the smoke and watch it disappear, step back into the smoke and boop it there again
odd sparrow
When you stand in smoke enemies cant target you from outside the smoke
sullen jackal
this does nothing except as mentioned, it's another modifier to the LOS check function
terse idol
How the smoke just blocks enemy los
odd sparrow
Smoking at your feet is generally better bc of this
sullen jackal
it's a little extra insurance I think that the smoke actually does what it's supposed to do.
which, yes, makes smoke at your feet far more reliable than between you and a target
odd sparrow
Yeah it was super unreliable before they added the buff
placid portal
I like to throw smoke on bosses so we can kill it without getting disturbed
frail skiff
Hey, can I get feedback on a vig autogun build I've been using?
sullen jackal
tbh i still think smoke grenade needs a buff still, especially because in a way it also penalizes you heavily by cutting off your vision as well
terse idol
I didnt even know it added a buff, one of the largest changes smoke received was snipers getting blinded by it
terse idol
tbh i still think smoke grenade needs a buff still, especially because in a way ...
Well
Unless you're insid
I really don't think it needs a buff
It really is a psyker bubble without hp
Just a timer
odd sparrow
Agree it needs a buff it really should have a shorter delay before exploding
sullen jackal
It really is a psyker bubble without hp
it's not :x the los checks are finnicky and I don't like them
terse idol
If anything I'd say this is certainly one of the reasons why it's so good for higher havoc
Since enmies shooters will blow up a psyker shield in seconds
frail skiff
https://darktide.gameslantern.com/build-editor?id=9db0a9ad-1fa6-436b-b1c0-ade00fe22c4c Just want some feedback, it has been working rather well so far to mop up anything far away from the group
odd sparrow
It also has the obvious downside of making it harder to shoot out of the smoke compared to bubble shield
terse idol
They can't blow up a smoke grenade
terse idol
It also has the obvious downside of making it harder to shoot out of the smoke c...
Hmm aaa eee
frail skiff
It also has the obvious downside of making it harder to shoot out of the smoke c...
You could also go to the front of the smoke and see better while staying concealed
sullen jackal
honestly for me veteran just has two grenades, with smoke being a silly toy that is usually more trouble that it's worth.
terse idol
https://darktide.gameslantern.com/build-editor?id=9db0a9ad-1fa6-436b-b1c0-ade00f...
Long shot isnt that good
sullen jackal
....especially because to use the smoke grenade you give up either the best carapace deleting tool in the game, or large horde clear.
terse idol
The damage buff is based off distance so when it kicks in it only gives you a tiiiny bit of damage
And THEN starts ramping up
odd sparrow
Yeah the other nades are great. With smoke being a bit too finnicky to be reliably useful
terse idol
....especially because to use the smoke grenade you give up either the best cara...
I mean all of those grenades are valid
sullen jackal
i think off memory like 12 meters to 20 meters
terse idol
Smoke gives you a defensive option
terse idol
Yeah the other nades are great. With smoke being a bit too finnicky to be reliab...
Just throw it at your feet
sullen jackal
oh yeah. Also. CLOSE COMBAT. Do you know how close 'close combat' is? :3
terse idol
Or throw it in front of you as close as you can
Never throw the smoke ontop of enemies far away
terse idol
honestly for me veteran just has two grenades, with smoke being a silly toy that...
Its definently not
Maybe back when it didn't block snipers yeah
frail skiff
I feel that smoke grenades pays off more if you're in an organized group with folks you know. Cause 75% of the time I have randos run out of the smoke to do their own thing instead of helping me deal with the 40 EFFING GUNNERS
terse idol
With Randoms like
As long as you can throw it where it's gonna like... block los you'll be good, smart folks will position around it or go inside to benefit from the added vision while chilling inside
sullen jackal
some of the definitions in the game are frankly hilarious
frail skiff
Long shot isnt that good
Anything else?
sullen jackal
damage_settings.ranged_far = 30
damage_settings.in_melee_range = 8```I dint know the recommended talents for the headhunter so I'd definelty check out the guide
sullen jackal
Yes. 'melee range' is within 8 meters. AKA coherency range. You are in 'melee range' of your squadmates in coherency.
And 'close range' is out to the edge of that, aka 30 meters. I would not call 30 meters away 'close', that's like... the effective range of combat for the most part?
terse idol
Take close order kill and confirmed kill instead
sullen jackal
(it does reduce in strength linearly afaik from 12.5m to 30m tho)
terse idol
No long shot no exilerating
sullen jackal
but this is why dumdum is afaik more or less an always pick for weapon blessings.
trim steppe
yeah the effective range on dumdum is enormous even tho it doesnt sound like it
terse idol
Dumdum damage works iirc in that it stacks at long ranges but the damage works at close
8m?
Or 12?
sullen jackal
Dumdum damage works iirc in that it stacks at long ranges but the damage works a...
30 meters.
trim steppe
12 pretty sure
sullen jackal
well it decays at 12.5 linerally but
terse idol
I ought to check
frail skiff
I dint know the recommended talents for the headhunter so I'd definelty check ou...
The vigil is guide compliant except I took +25% on Maniac instead of +10% on elite
terse idol
Is it a manic or elite case? I'd certainly check the breakpoints to see
odd sparrow
Dumdum only stacks on enemies within 12
Longshot has a dmg increases that starts at 12 and increases up to a max at 30m
terse idol
Yeah that's bad
sullen jackal
i think kill zone is fine tbh because 8m is still 'melee range' but yeh logn shot is a dead point for anything except getting through that tier of talents faster :p
odd sparrow
But 12m is a lot of lee way
terse idol
But 12m is a lot of lee way
It's 12m at
1% damage increase or so
At a maximum of 20% at the max range
Like you're not gaining any damage at its minimum
terse idol
You're going surgical and DA so you do need flak and unarmoured seeeeminfly
Which is different to what ya built
At least the guide is suggesting an OR case so I'm assuming it has a breakpoint suggestion when you do run surgical + DA
frail skiff
I still one shot flak enemies
odd sparrow
Longshot has the specific purpose of helping with reaching 1hit BPs on long range weapons.
Particularly against gunners since they are the only enemy to be that far away
terse idol
And dredge gunners?
frail skiff
1 shot to the head
terse idol
Longshot has the specific purpose of helping with reaching 1hit BPs on long rang...
On an ilas7
With inverse range drop off like
odd sparrow
Also revolver and boltgun
terse idol
I really gotta test it out
sullen jackal
why does veteran only have two talent columsns in the code did they scrap one of them and like... spread two talent columns into one somehow 
terse idol
Cause at that point it just sounds like you run fire team
sullen jackal
tbh that would explain a lot about veteran
odd sparrow
Vet tree is good yeah. Few talents that are filler
frail skiff
Just that a few keystones need readjusting
terse idol
Cabal id certainly ask paths reasoning as to why there's an OR case for the headhunter but
odd sparrow
Zealot has so many talents that are just taxes to reach the good talents
terse idol
I don't knoooow otherwise
Can you dredge gunner 1 tap headshot without a surgical crit?
Without unarmoured?
frail skiff
No
terse idol
Can you do it with unarmoured?
frail skiff
Stand by
terse idol
Without a surgical crit
frail skiff
I can hip fire 1 shot without surgical with +25% unarmored
terse idol
Ah
I might see why
It is a break point for unarmoured for killing flak and unarmoured without a surgical crit
frail skiff
The big downside to vig auto gun is that it does reduced damage to maniacs
sullen jackal
Zealot has so many talents that are just taxes to reach the good talents
oh yeah zealot definitely has the worst tree imo
...also I think psyker has the best tree but biased.
veteran is somwhere between psyker above and ogryn below
terse idol
The big downside to vig auto gun is that it does reduced damage to maniacs
That is likely where surgical + DA goes in
I'm understanding why theres an OR case for the headhunter
One for defensive option for gunners
One for surgical DA flak and unarmoured
Surgical da for maniacs
Unarmoured flak for break point without crit
Least that's what I'm thinking is happening
Open salvo is likely for your breakpoint for your gunners with ghost as defensive vs gunners
So yeeahhh
You're gonna want flak + unarmoured for surgical + DA
frail skiff
Yeah, without the +25% to maniacs I no longer meet the break point to 1 shot a maniac without popping EXE
sullen jackal
huh, volley fire/executioner's stance has 'deterministic recoil'
also 'ranged_alternative_fire_interrupt_immune' but i'm not sure what that is?
terse idol
Yeah, without the +25% to maniacs I no longer meet the break point to 1 shot a m...
You'll have to pick either or case in this instance
I wouldn't mix and match
Perresonally
terse idol
Naw we learning 
Yeag
You have surgical da for them
That's why you don't need maniac+
If you go maniac at least I'm referencing the guide
Then you take open salvo and ghost for gunners, for dredge gunners
Ooh it's elite
My brain
I swear
If the BP is open salvo + elite
For gunners
That... also makes sense
frail skiff
The thing is
With surgical
It takes about the same time to get the stacks needed to get the crit on surgical than for OS to refresh
terse idol
Then you'd do the other build eh? Sounds like you'd benefit more from ghost
Especially with Exe
frail skiff
A fair point
Let me see if I have a second god rolled vig auto gun and I will do comparisons
teal canyon
Let me see if I have a second god rolled vig auto gun and I will do comparisons
Wanna see my gunner cosplay to destroy everyone in cqc?
frail skiff
Sure
teal canyon
frail skiff
Your build almost mirrors my Brauto gun build
teal canyon
When 40 gunners show up and i suppress the hell out of them.
Make crushers soft and bosses dead
Very fun in tight spaces. Not effective on long ranges tho
Anyway.
Counter 40 bloody gunners
By being making you gunner
frail skiff
"Look at me. I'm the gunner now."
teal canyon
You even can strafe shooting like one of them
frail skiff
I wish Graia had like double the mag size
sullen jackal
huh the 'close damage' distance scaler uses the square root of the value between 0 and 1 representing how far away they are. 0 at 12.5 meters and 1 at 30 meters.
teal canyon
Range is so bad i start to shoot short bursts while crouching and not moving often
sullen jackal
so halfway in between those two values at 21.25 meters, it's... ok well it's 70% of the way to the minimum bonus. so yeah the falloff outside 12.5m is big :p
frail skiff
I only have 1 vet penance left
frail skiff
I think they released a second version
sullen jackal
dumdum is 10% right?
sullen jackal
ok nope 6%
but that does the whole square root falloff between 12.5m and 30m where it lowers quickly but doesn't fully go away until 30
frail skiff
If we had the cults AND greenskins to deal with I'm afraid that the Adeptus Astartes would be called in then
teal canyon
If we had the cults AND greenskins to deal with I'm afraid that the Adeptus Asta...
They fought eachother on the bridge, we moved in shooting, then ork gunner starts shooting me and cant hit shit
sullen jackal
aaah. So that's how long shot works. It gives 0.2 damage at far distance... which works with the square root to the veterans advantage, actually. huh
frail skiff
aaah. So *that's* how long shot works. It gives 0.2 damage at far distance... wh...
Where are you getting this info?
sullen jackal
teal canyon
And some orks gun are just explode if you shoot at it
sullen jackal
it gives damage_far = 0.2
teal canyon
But they have 2000hp each and no armor
They also, for some reason, die really fast when burning. Zealot scorched boyz really fast to death
sullen jackal
tis how you counteract their troll regen, obviously
cyan verge
they're mushrooms so they burn good
sullen jackal
hmm. also infinite cleave might be better than I thought it was when i think about it. because i suspect that might make it so that every target hits takes the first target damage maybe.
also dumdum activates on a hit at any range looking at the code. The stack is applied on_hit which has no qualifiers to it.
sullen jackal
lasts two seconds it seems
tawny timber
damn
just had a mission crash
close to the end of maelstrom on archivum
some bullshit man 😭
sullen jackal
because of the falloff curve though, you only get half of dumdum's benefit at 16.875 meters out however, with full benefit at 12.5 meters out and closer
if you're at the rear of your squad's coherency range, that's about the distance to the other side of their coherency aura
putting it like that ok that does seem very close range doesn't it
bleak tangle
is it me or like the specialist spawn rate is really cracked lately? I've never seen a lone muty after the new patch
one time we got like 17 muties back to back. The run died, we laughed but it got me thinkin'
sullen jackal
wait lol gadgets are just copypasted from vermintide 2 i think and are the modifiers for curios that's funny
..with some odd things like "play with only bots buff" that increases your max health by 25%.
static panther
I GOT THIS ONE TOO
static panther
kark
frail skiff
@terse idol Hit me up later, I have the results from testing both guns. I also tested with Focus Target and Marksman's focus with interesting results between both keystones
static panther
good luck dude
How do I get below that much health too?
cyan verge
you literally just have to take damage
you have to get hit but not hit so much you go down until you are below 1 wound and then play basically the entire mission like that
pseudo fiber
it's not that hard I've duo'd it a bunch
cyan verge
lol
shadow dagger
refill
cyan verge
yes you can do that but
shadow dagger
and proceed as normal
cyan verge
what do you mean refill
he's not gonna explain wtf he means by 'refill' is he
well anyway
importantly it is worded so you can't just go down and then play like that you need to be below 1 wound
so the safest thing is to just get hit by a poxwalker until below 1 wound so you, at least don't INSTANTLY DIE when you go down
and yeah it's not. impossible. but. yeah it's a lot harder to just find anyone who could give a fuck to help you out
and on top of that, since you're new since you're trying to do this penance, you are obviously new, you're gonna probably suck and have trouble just being alive in heresy
fun fun fun
pseudo fiber
he's not gonna explain wtf he means by 'refill' is he
Maybe they meant the heal from holy revenant?
cyan verge
which is not the worst but
I swear 2 g that holy revenant has a hard cap
on the heal
pseudo fiber
25%
pseudo fiber
So you'd be under a wound
frank ledge
It sucks
cyan verge
it should literally be unlimited
pseudo fiber
Used to be 75%
cyan verge
like you only get like a couple SECONDS
frank ledge
it should literally be unlimited
Used to be most of ur hp
cyan verge
like ohhh it'd be busted no it'd just be fair
steep grail
under no circumstance should holy revenant be unlimited
cyan verge
why, cuz you could become immortal just by being good
steep grail
you're already immortal by playing zealot?
let's just give them a second hp bar why not
steep grail
until death already shouldn't be procing for good players, if the healing was unlimited the amount of unhealthy habits encouraged would be insane
dry cloak
It was uncapped in the before times wasnt it?
cyan verge
no offense but that's a ludicrous thing to say
you can't be like oh it'll never trigger if you're good, like okay I mean, sure, but, people make mistakes
steep grail
your mistakes shouldn't be rewarded with a full heal
dry cloak
Its not a full heal
steep grail
right but majorita is saying HR should be uncapped
dry cloak
I get 1.5 wounds on my marty build
steep grail
which I think is ridiculous
dry cloak
right but majorita is saying HR should be uncapped
It was
steep grail
yeah, and it WAS ridiculous
cyan verge
sounds fun 2 me
steep grail
you think giving it to the giga buffed zealot NOW would be a good idea?
the one with like 70% damage reduction already?
analog mural
well back then marty was based on hp so having it heal your entire hp bar was kind of a detriment actually
steep grail
that is probably true but I was bad at darktide back then so I wasn't really tracking martyrdom ngl
dry cloak
The times where you pressed f to move forward
cyan verge
idk zealot does not feel that OP to me
steep grail
you're crazy
cyan verge
maybe I just don't know how to build it
steep grail
zealot is SUCH a problem class imo
cyan verge
but by comparison, psyker seems way more OP in every respect especially in havoc
dry cloak
Zealot is very forgiving clasd
dry cloak
but by comparison, psyker seems way more OP in every respect especially in havoc
A good psyker is a lot better than good ogryn or vet
dry cloak
but that's only gunker
No
cyan verge
inferno staff is carrying havocs right now
steep grail
which yeah I agree gunker is turbo busted and needs immediate nerfs
steep grail
maybe
steep grail
gunker is absurd damage and fatshark kinda refuses to touch it
or
thats a lie
they refuse to nerf it meaningfully
dry cloak
people seem to like it
Its absurd when you get your combos down
dry cloak
Especially with mk6 that only has strikedown heavies
steep grail
there's a large gap between vet and ogryn and not really a sizable one between the other three though
dry cloak
been playing scriers gaze force greatsword
Disrupt destiny or warp siphon better for it?
tawny timber
Disrupt destiny or warp siphon better for it?
ive only run disrupt destiny
cant say
dry cloak
there's a large gap between vet and ogryn and not really a sizable one between t...
There is a large gap between ogryn and the rest
steep grail
id think DD
cyan verge
okay since I don't understand what's so strong about zealot
steep grail
Duelist
tawny timber
okay since I don't understand what's so strong about zealot
im pretty sure its movement
cyan verge
duellist...
dry cloak
ive only run disrupt destiny
Can you test it with warp siphon if you have time. Please
tawny timber
there's a large gap between vet and ogryn and not really a sizable one between t...
precision stubber
tawny timber
Can you test it with warp siphon if you have time. Please
sure I will tomorrow its like 3 am
dry cloak
sure I will tomorrow its like 3 am
Thanks in advance
steep grail
god the class feels like dogshit to me
tawny timber
keep in mind im a mid ass darktide player
dry cloak
keep in mind im a mid ass darktide player
So am i
tawny timber
like im the guy from the ranked teammate memes
cyan verge
hmm
okay yeah that does own
I think I did trigger this earlier while farming this god damn penance on a boss and it did a lot of damage
uh I mean, I am playing veteran
cyan verge
damage reduction though... my build here only gets +15% DR?
is there meant to be more on the tree somewhere
steep grail
enduring faith
tawny timber
Thanks in advance
i will say though scriers gaze is what does a lot of heavy lifting for melee psyker
esp with the toughness damage resistance
analog mural
enduring is not an always take, especially on less crit heavy builds
steep grail
backstabber -> scourge -> enduring faith
dry cloak
i will say though scriers gaze is what does a lot of heavy lifting for melee psy...
Most of my time as psyker was in melee without SC
steep grail
enduring is not an always take, especially on less crit heavy builds
80% of zealot builds grab it
I would wager that
analog mural
ok, so not always then
steep grail
totally
tawny timber
all i know is I hit F and see red
analog mural
like I would never take enduring on a thammer build
cyan verge
yeah okay I see why blades of faith is such a good pick now
better pathing than immolation
dry cloak
all i know is I hit F and see red
I mean 3 hitting crushers with mk6 fgs is nice
steep grail
like I would never take enduring on a thammer build
i wouldnt know
i couldnt be paid to use thammer
cyan verge
I am using knife atm so that's not a bad time to take enduring faith
analog mural
yes on knife enduring is pretty much up all the time
cyan verge
I am grinding this out
cyan verge
oh yeah, the DS4
cyan verge
which, I have heard is 'objectively better than knife'
steep grail
it is
cyan verge
okay now I understand why
sometimes I see zealots
who just can do whatever they want and not die
that makes sense to me now
cyan verge
or just be bad
honestly, I didn't even like understand until you explained it to me just now
and I am at 330 hours in darktide, so I bet there's zealots in heresy and damnation who are throwing stunstorm grenades and such going "what is DR"
oh who am I kidding, they're using immolation
outer geyser
What's DS4?
analog mural
cyan verge
if you use it you get an unfair advantage
it has an attack that can 2-shot crushers, sometimes 1-shot
outer geyser
Nah I meant weapon, not a controller for a console that has no games.
tawny timber
DarkSaber 4
cyan verge
oh, it's also a duelling sword, aka the DS IV, it's a comfortable controller that can be used with your computer if you have Steam
I wouldn't tho
mouse and keyboard
dry cloak
I reized this will be a issue
tawny timber
i will press forward and attempt to find a way
dry cloak
Ok
bitter turtle
it has an attack that can 2-shot crushers, sometimes 1-shot
Thats not why it's op
It's almost always a 2 shot unless you meme and run thrust+uncanny
And knife can do similar
It's op bc agile
Absurd defensive blessing
analog mural
lol agile is not what makes DS op
bitter turtle
Infinite dodges is op as shit and the main diff between it and knife
analog mural
brother ive cleared many havoc 40s and no top players run agile in my experience
bitter turtle
I've also cleared havoc 40 multiple times since week 1 in full ds4 teams, i don't see why you would not run it and I see it on other ds4s
Idk
What do you guys run then
Thrust?
analog mural
because dodges refresh fast already, especially with ij, and DS already has op mobility without agile
you simply do not need agile
its better to go damage
bitter turtle
Well again, what do you run instead then
And what would you say makes ds4 better than knife
analog mural
depending on build, some variation of riposte/precog/uncanny/thrust
bitter turtle
Their ttk is not that different outside of thrust meme
And knife sprint speed is slightly higher iirc
analog mural
I would say DS and knife are roughly equal, but DS is simpler to use because of its simpler patterns and longer range
bitter turtle
Well
cyan verge
my DS4 is...
bitter turtle
If you see agile as unnecessary then yea I guess
I also thought it was not any better than knife at first
But a lot of clutches I've done would not be possible w/o infinite dodge
cyan verge
bitter turtle
And like you still 2 shot crusher so 
analog mural
you should dump cleave damage instead of mobi btw
bitter turtle
Yea not like you kill more than 1 thing at a time
analog mural
it only affects unarmoured/infested and not by a lot
bitter turtle
Cleave damage on ds4 is as confusing as stability on helbore, who picks these stats
cyan verge
what's difference between 60% and 80% tho
analog mural
longer dodges, faster sprint
bitter turtle
Slightly more speed and dodge distance
It's not normally really noticeable so everyone dumps it
But
Ds4 cleave is nonexistent
cyan verge
2% dodge distance and... something sprint speed, I would guess like, +0.90 I guess
bitter turtle
So cleave dmg is probably even more useless
bitter turtle
Like I think a heavy stab cleaves even in normal damnation for like 20 dmg on the 2nd target lol
On poxwalkers
Might as well not exist
cyan verge
my Mk V lookin at me funny "bro? bro why you lookin at me like that..."
oops I dunno what happened
I do like to go fast tho
steady wolf
uh why does it have mobility and defences
analog mural
different mks get different stats
cyan verge
the mk V has defences instead of cleave
analog mural
sometimes
cyan verge
there's only a couple like that but yeah
cyan verge
yeah oof cleave instead of finesse
bitter turtle
Cleave targets on bromentum weapon 
cyan verge
oh I think a patch just dropped
analog mural
like an hour ago yeah
steady wolf
how many bugs did it add tho
analog mural
yeah the penance was fixed
cyan verge
the penance
oh no they only just did that now
like they SAID it was gonna be dec 3rd
then it just wasn't
analog mural
classic fatshark version control
cyan verge
oh that was a bug, yeah okay
good
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1361210/view/512943879502168920 here is what I am reading it at
I'll provide source I'm good like that
um this was awesome???
why would you 'fix' that
vernal trench
Yea i do that
cyan verge
Dev Note: Cancelling a Havoc deployment will provide a refund of the charge used to start the Assignment if it's done in the first 60 seconds of attempting to start a deployment. Afterwards, a player will not receive a refund for the charge spent.
okay so you can cancel when you join and you see your zealot is bringing shroud or something
Players can demote an Assignment Rank to get a new Assignment that is one rank lower. lol
does this mean you can go "okay that's too hard" and nope out
oh that's it huh
well hopefully the audio is patched and works better now
teal canyon
Obesity crab when psyker:
Dueling sword.
Bulging carp when others:
Slowhammer
Charging sim sword
Spammace of fingertiredness
cyan verge
because just earlier I saw both a hound and a bomber in the same moment throw a grenade and leap at me silently WHILE I WAS LOOKING AT them and I got so mad
bitter turtle
Was it on the new map
bitter turtle
I've noticed a lot of issues when they play the unique track on the walk up to the final cathedral area
cyan verge
wait
this implies it thinks I am not on windows 10
oh it thinks I'm on windows vista...
steady wolf
refer to #ogryn-class
cyan verge
what for
steady wolf
joke, cuz the bugs
cyan verge
oh true
steady wolf
you are getting bugs rn cuz of update right?
cyan verge
um, well, it gives me the fatal error then lets me open the game so
I don't know
oh now it says 'my version of windows 10 is not new enough to do directstorage' and then still opens
none of my mods are broken, cool
well so far
hollow sphinx
I wish there was a new weapons for vet, too bad only three operators got a new one.
vernal trench
@bitter turtle u on rn?
pseudo fiber
I wish there was a new weapons for vet, too bad only three operators got a new o...
Next year my friend
bitter turtle
<@160232264834220032> u on rn?
It's 4 am right now for me lmao
vernal trench
Ah shit
urban axle
what are the best perks for dueling sword on yalls opinion?
I have unarmoured and im think i should get rid of that because maybe its already good enough on unarmoured stuff
wanton vapor
I take carapace and maniac
But that’s mostly because I’m a caveman who just prefers straight damage against the enemies I dislike most
I’m sure there is a more technical, finesse option
cyan verge
those are good
carapace got an unintentional buff imo since now scab rager chest is carapace lol
instead of flak I assume
patent zephyr
Oh wise rejects, what is the dump stat on the plasma gun
patent zephyr
Why not 70/70?
cyan verge
the same reason it's NOT like 60/80 or 80/60, cuz it hits the right breakpoint
I mean disclaimer that is obviously a pretty specific set of stats so you're gonna have a heck of a time getting that exact spread so you can just use like a 70/70 if you find such a thing, it's fine probably
but if you want 'perfect' there u go
rich tapir
balmy flume
wow I love rolling steel soooo much
Still an easier grind than 2/3 of the Havoc penances.
(The level 40 Havoc one less so if only because you can use private/public group with high ranks to "jump" levels)
(That having been said, I have yet to do that 😅 )
pseudo fiber
Sometimes I forgot people here are insane.
What did you mean you grinded 50 rolling steels
balmy flume
TBF probably not 50 in a row
But built up over time
Still a bit of a semi grind though
Since it means playing that mission everything RNG decides to let it show
tame lodge
That's what? 8 hours of Rolling Steel?
upbeat snow
at least one steel that is likely rolling
cyan verge
yeah
now why would I do that, well, I am grinding the 'don't let anyone get downed' penance
and also scoring some mission clears on classes I am not playing so much
cuz I still gotta get those
(you know, 'play 100 missions as the guy')
balmy flume
no I did about 50 rolling steels today
How...how did you get the Mission terminal to show it consistently...?
cyan verge
it's called mods
so I just tell darktide, I am going to this mission now, and it goes ok
balmy flume
Ah
cyan verge
yeah, funnily enough earlier there was a gap for 6 hours where rolling still just did not show up
so I needed this
but honestly it saves sanity points a lot for many penances and since often if you are trying to do some junk penances you don't really want other people involved it helps there too since randoms can't get sucked into your game by quickmatch
balmy flume
nice
I tend to grind the Class penance without much overlap with any map ones.
Because I am too dedicated to Vet Class
cyan verge
yeah I finished 100 missions as vet recently and if I just kept playing I'd probably be doing vet and nothing else since it's my fav
but
I want to be effective with all classes
and roles
balmy flume
A noble sentiment
cyan verge
and clear all the penances, that I can reasonably accomplish
balmy flume
I only have the other classes on back-burner for their penance lol
cyan verge
the one I am aiming for though, 'don't let anyone be downed for 100 missions' is not reasonable
I worked out so like, okay I am at about 330 hours right, and I had earlier today, about 30 games where no one went down
out of 100
this means, if I want to do that """naturally""" just by playing
that's 700 more hours of darktide
balmy flume
Ouch
balmy flume
Ah
cyan verge
so now I am down to like 18 left
which I will probably do tomorrow
babysitting bots is not too hard but even still, they STILL sometimes just randomly get one-shot by something or outright die, or get trapped somewhere you can't do anything about it
balmy flume
I already got the drip I want thus far, so I am not really in a hurry to grind the actual penance track.
that and I have some weapon mastery ones I can just plug the itch with if needed
cyan verge
oh, yeah it's not really for that I just want to get it out of the way since it's a steam achievement
balmy flume
I see. I just ignore the fact that Steam has their own unique ones XD
cyan verge
it probably doesn't matter to most people, but I like to use it as a measuring stick for how 'complete' with a game I am
it's more accurate for some games than others...
for instance skyrim, as an example, if you do all the achievements for skyrim you've pretty much seen everything the game has to offer
for darktide, uh, well... less so
it doesn't have any for auric or havoc
but, I am doing it anyay
plus it annoys me when there's something like this that, would take me an absurd amount of time if done passively
balmy flume
I see, understandable
cyan verge
even if I went on to play 700 hours of darktide, I'd rather do it on my own terms and not like, oh I should try to play ogryn in malice so I can babysit newbies so they don't go down
I don't wanna do that lol
balmy flume
It's like me trying to finish off the explosive barrels kill penance
cyan verge
yeah I am only like 1k/2500
balmy flume
I can't really farm that deliberately, so I get how long passive takes
cyan verge
but I have 1k/2500 already, so whatever
it's not at all terrible
people fortunately at least in my games tend to completely ignore the existence of barrels so if you see a horde next to a barrel you can often just shoot it and no one will try to fight you for it, or possibly, even notice it was there
balmy flume
Also the rescue 500 people one lol.
I think I am at 4XX ish right now
balmy flume
Being outran by Zealots for the revive lol
cyan verge
I am also not really in a rush for that since, yeah I am picking up people all the time nbd, there's always opportunities to progress it and you can do it naturally
even if it's just the one bot dying again because for some reason your party is 3/4 and the last slot just will not fill
balmy flume
The real question for me right now is. Do I torture myself to get up to Havoc 35 or 40, be it by my own rank or hijacking others.
Currently ranked 30. But I have tried a single rank 39 run and...it felt like...actual hell.
Even with a team that did proper tactics.
cyan verge
lol
it depends on the map I am sure
if you get gloriana it's like gg that map is toxic but chasm logistratum seems like a relatively safe map to run
by comparison
cyan verge
it should be fun but it's not fun carrying every single other player since they have no idea what to do at any point in the entire map
balmy flume
why couldn't Enclavum Baross ever show up
Refinery is more difficult.
Gloriana inter void, I would argue, depends on whether your team knows what they are doing.
cyan verge
INCLUDING the 2 minute plague ogryn or whatever that throws people off the ledge to their instant death
I had someone the other day say "never seen that before!!!" after they got ledged
and I was like facepalming
like bro are you serious you're level 200 or something
refinery, yeah, more for the finale I assume than anything...
bitter turtle
Refinery finale is ez with infiltrate :^)
balmy flume
Gloriana is filled to the brim with indirect gatekeeping.
- Staying in beginning ledge.
- Knowing how to clear the tram battery bit.
- Knowing how to clear the iced up gear room.
- Actually being able to adapt to the random objectives for the last part.
cyan verge
where is the holdout spot there anyway
is it like
the exit gate, if you're looking at it, to the left there's a little circular room with two doorways
is that the safe spot
bitter turtle
For my groups it's typically that room yes but I've heard people who actually do the obj as a group hold out on the platform above that room
cyan verge
oh yeah that'd be good too
cyan verge
there's enemy spawns up there too though is the only problem I would have with it
bitter turtle
But for my groups I'm soloing the valves so the lower room is more typical, ladders are annoying
balmy flume
Very cancer
cyan verge
somehow, less functional than like half life 2 ladders
bitter turtle
Gloriana is filled to the brim with indirect gatekeeping.
- Staying in beginnin...
Gloriana biggest knowledge check is
Do not fucki g use the right path drop down in the beginning
I told a group not to do it
They didn't listen
Drop down
Cspawn and captain instantly
pseudo fiber
Damnation
bitter turtle
In the very beginning
balmy flume
Do not fucki g use the right path drop down in the beginning
I guess I am lucky I follow everyone that uses the left without knowing thay.
bitter turtle
The tunnel
cyan verge
like the VERY beginning of the level
balmy flume
I know that bit
It's to the right, it looks safe, but it's a ledge you cannot climb back up
bitter turtle
It's a one way path
balmy flume
So if 2 bosses spawn there you are fucked
balmy flume
Happy Fun Times!
bitter turtle
At least i managed to squeeze and slide my way out for the cspawn and traitor captain
Bon is actually just gg
Since a horde always comes in too to pin you against the the dead end
And then the whole tunnel is covered in slowing yellow vomit
bitter turtle
After that wipe they listened and we went left on the ramp to rush the stairs
And then we cleared 
cyan verge
left on the ramp to rush the stairs...
bitter turtle
You know that little ramp up with the box
balmy flume
In theory there is a high risk tactic.
You could have 1 person jump down and the other 3 stay top (there is yet another little corridor that allows you to overlook below to shoot BoN yellow spot)
bitter turtle
You can drop down to the staircase directly
balmy flume
But as said, really high risk
bitter turtle
To rush that room
That is on the second floor
That room is an excellent holdout spot
And can safely advance to the next part of the platforms easily
You can drop down directly into the entrance of the tunnels towards the end of the first platform area for cover
balmy flume
Talking of map tactics
@cyan verge it still surprises me the number of people who don't realise that for rolling steel
The top of the train
Is far easier to advance
cyan verge
yeah
bitter turtle
So u know when you go forwward
cyan verge
there's like two dropdowns I can think of in this area
bitter turtle
Theres 3 paths
One is going outside on the left
One is going inside the tunnels on the right
cyan verge
ye
cyan verge
oh yeah okay I see it
bitter turtle
Assuming a dh didn't fuck you by sitting right under
The right path into tunnel is one way
It's the fastest in theory but a boss trigger is there
cyan verge
ohhh you mean following along here?
cyan verge
yeah I have done this path like once
everyone else always like
goes left
and then gets knocked off into the abyss
balmy flume
That spot is good for raining fire down on a BoN too
bitter turtle
The stairs are the best area to be if a boss triggers too
cyan verge
ohhhh
bitter turtle
You can kite somewhat by going up the stairs then jumping back down, then running back to that ramp again where you took that stairs picture
bitter turtle
Yep
cyan verge
I am gonna remember this
cyan verge
Gloriana is filled to the brim with indirect gatekeeping.
- Staying in beginnin...
anyway yeah
and no one knows how to do the tram bit
and every other area is pretty open and uh yeah
that is not really a nice thing on havoc
and if you are fortunate enough to get to the end yay you get random objectives and
capacitor is good RNG, the other capacitor is good RNG, and power switches... is... good RNG, but
power cells is toxic
and heat shields is like just OK
balmy flume
Yea.
Tram battery bit is basically...
(1) Clear as many gunners as possible before start.
(2) Keep pace with the (de)activations.
bitter turtle
Imo the difficulty for final event goes
cyan verge
actually I think it's better if no one interacts with the objective at all, yet there's always one guy standing next to the power controls and they won't restart it ever, so I have to both be doing the synchronistors, and then go back up to reset the power
it's better that way.
balmy flume
But then everyone just...ignores everything to stay alive most of the time...
cyan verge
that way I have to do everything
bitter turtle
2 capacitors (easiest) > heat shields > valves > 2 auspex hacking thing >>>>>>> batteries
balmy flume
The flip the switches one
cyan verge
oh that's power switches
bitter turtle
Ya
cyan verge
yes that one is good
bitter turtle
Idk what they're called
bitter turtle
Yea
It's super easy
But heatshield is a joke since you have a great choke
And 2 capacitors is done in like
Literally 3 seconds
So those are still easier
balmy flume
Batteries are cancer
cyan verge
yeah
balmy flume
Especially if people forget to move
bitter turtle
Yeah batteries suck bc you actually need to keep the middle clear
Unlike power switches
cyan verge
honestly I am looking at tram now and there's really no good place to hideout in this entire area, this sucks
bitter turtle
Even if both involve running around the outside
balmy flume
The funny thing is, you could actually see your RNG luck as soon as you arrive at the final point.
cyan verge
is that so
balmy flume
Just see if the battery ports spawned on the thing or not
cyan verge
oh do they not spawn
balmy flume
If battery is not a thing, the ports shouldn't be there
balmy flume
I noticed because I got curious lol
cyan verge
actually I think it's better if no one interacts with the objective at all, yet ...
can't believe I typed 'synchronistors' correctly
anyway gloriana sure is """fun""" on lower difficulties but I don't want to do it on havoc lol
bitter turtle
actually I think it's better if no one interacts with the objective at all, yet ...
Did you know
Stealth is enough time to do the synchronister and the power switch
:^)
cyan verge
lol
I am sure it is
actually these are one of the rare things though where
you cannot be interrupted while interacting
so there's that
I have no idea why it is like that
balmy flume
you cannot be interrupted while interacting
No and yes, actually.
You can be interrupted if an attack knocks you out of interaction range.
cyan verge
well yeah
balmy flume
But within the interaction range, you are correct.
cyan verge
shotgunners and reapers no long deal knockback tho
so nothing can do that except flamers I guess
and obviously hounds, trappers, mutants
but.
balmy flume
Ragers are cancer for that though.
cyan verge
don't let those touch you
oh
and ragers I guess
but that's like a mental knockback
like oh I really don't want to get hit by that dude, dodge
then you stab his face
or their faces
whichever
balmy flume
The number of times I lunge for it, only to find my bloody team has started worshipping Khorne, and a Rager/Mutie just slaps me off it...
cyan verge
lol
for me it's that same... guy, I don't even know, at the power controls going down while in ostensibly the safest spot in the area
who also isn't restarting it for me
while I do synchronistors
and fight every gunner simultaneously
while also fighting off ragers and muties
balmy flume
TBF that area is half a trap.
It looks safe, but get enough Flamers, bombers and Gunners spawning.
That platform is actually exposed as fuck.
balmy flume
Yep
cyan verge
the 'safest' spot in the area kinda just seems to be like in against the stairs on the right side
cyan verge
yeah
bitter turtle
The respawn point is ideal to hold out for survival
cyan verge
that's on the right side right
bitter turtle
But it doesn't have a good sightline.to actually kill the gunners
Standing on the platform looking out to the synchronisters, yea it's on the right
cyan verge
yeah, it has that little like, there's a shield-lookin wall thing that sorta gives you some cover from the rest of the arena
cyan verge
yeah...
bitter turtle
Right next to the respawn
cyan verge
there's one behind the thing too
bitter turtle
But it's the best you're gonna get
cyan verge
like directly behind the platform
bitter turtle
An idea I had is
cyan verge
like lol good
balmy flume
In essence, a lot of people are tricked into playing defense in the battery bit for some odd reason
cyan verge
the main issue I can think of there is enemies can probably drop down from above too
bitter turtle
They do but
cyan verge
I would assume anyway
bitter turtle
Not like that's a huge problem
cyan verge
yeah if you are far enough back you can just kill them
it is a fairly spacious area, but uh yeah
bitter turtle
It's mostly specialists that come from that angle
balmy flume
Bombers can make the entry corridor painful
bitter turtle
Yeah I'm sure
cyan verge
bombers are just evil sometimes
cyan verge
sometimes they're like eh whatever I don't feel like trying but sometimes they just sit there and lob grenades at one spot over and over
paper trellis
Managed to get exec stance penance last night. Never have to use that shitty ability ever again
balmy flume
It's not optimal to how Darktide flows
It has its uses
Just not with the way enemies rush you 99% of the time
(Or. You need a dedicated backguard teammate)
Great for Ventilation purge snipers though
paper trellis
(Or. You need a dedicated backguard teammate)
Funny joke
balmy flume
But still a niche use
paper trellis
Legitimately my groups are never coordinated enough for it to be practical
balmy flume
Completely understandable
paper trellis
Except in havoc, where I can’t justify it
balmy flume
Especially if PUG
And Havoc...yea. The Toughness debuff and enemy buffs is just
All the enemy gunners might as well be holding heavy bolters
For all intents and purposes
And they eat damage like fucking breakfast
paper trellis
To maintain it for any length of time you need to leave yourself open for counter fire, if you don’t maintain it, it’s functionally worthless
crisp oak
https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/175
I need this mod for martyr skulls....
paper trellis
And god help you if the party doesn’t keep horde off you while using it
crisp oak
To maintain it for any length of time you need to leave yourself open for counte...
I need to do the 20 seconds 5 times one
Not sure what exactly breaks stance tbh
paper trellis
I need to do the 20 seconds 5 times one
Basically you need to chain a bunch of shooters but have small gaps between kills so it doesn’t top off too early. It’s ass
balmy flume
It helps if you get the upgrade that makes chaff shooters highlighted as well
But still a pain
paper trellis
I had to do it auric, never enough shooters in regular to get a long enough daisy chain
And you need a reload node
crisp oak
Do you need to keep shooting (wondering if I can just do hellbore shots for it and never have to reload)
paper trellis
I legitimately hated the build I had to run to get than penance
crisp oak
The 4 weak spot on exec stance was ez cuz beast of nurgle
paper trellis
Do you need to keep shooting (wondering if I can just do hellbore shots for it a...
Takes too long, ttk leaves them open for other ppl to kill
paper trellis
The 4 weak spot on exec stance was ez cuz beast of nurgle
lol yeah I got that at like lvl 4
balmy flume
I recommend the Infantry Lasgun, if you can use the ACOG scope
Makes headshots less painful
paper trellis
Yeah that’s a good choice
I ran it with recon to deal with the hordes still charging me while i did so
balmy flume
(Also, as said, very unique niche fun for Ventilation Purge counter Snipers)
cyan verge
oh the exe penance where you just keep it going
paper trellis
(Also, as said, *very unique niche fun* for Ventilation Purge counter Snipers)
I prefer marking targets for that generally, there’s a pretty generous amount of wiggle room for the lock
cyan verge
I honestly had no trouble doing it in heresy because I'd always be pushing at the front anyway, so whatever, I'd just kill one guy then another then another gg
crisp oak
Btw what is this loner penance that people bitch on it
cyan verge
I was running the infantry autogun at the time too which has a quick reload
paper trellis
Btw what is this loner penance that people bitch on it
Penance is to play like an idiot and go off alone
cyan verge
you absolutely need a gun with a fast reload to do it otherwise you are just not gonna be able to keep it up
I was able to pretty consistently like kill one or two guys, reload, then aim at another guy while reloading and as soon as the magazine is seated just open fire to get another kill and keep going
crisp oak
I tried it with the infantry, killed the gunners too fast
paper trellis
I was running the infantry autogun at the time too which has a quick reload
Good ttk on it too
balmy flume
Penance is to play like an idiot and go off alone
I think I did that alongside the stealth related Vet penances so me running off still made a bit of sense
paper trellis
I tried it with the infantry, killed the gunners too fast
That’s the problem you have to both stagger your kills and make sure nobody else gets a crack at them
crisp oak
Yup
paper trellis
The penance is aids. Hence running it in auric
cyan verge
loner is a zealot aura
it's like "you count as being in 2 coherency"
which is like uhh okay cool
so yeah there's a penance for, have loner active while I think backstabbing a ranged enemy to death
coherency is 8m which is both smaller and larger than you think so you always have to be like one or two rooms away and on top of that it has to be backstabs, so this penance, takes, for EVER
paper trellis
Mind you, I had to carry the runs where I got the instances of the 20 second sustain, shit sucked
cyan verge
yeah that's why I did it in heresy lol
paper trellis
On a build that was just ass to work around it
cyan verge
in heresy no one is doing anything
they're somehow playing, yet not doing anything
so you can just be always going ahead shooting everything
paper trellis
yeah that's why I did it in heresy lol
I couldn’t get a heresy run with enough gunners to physically do it
cyan verge
I would not want to try it in aurics where everyone is actively competing for special kills
oh
that's unfortunate
but yeah sometimes in high difficulties I am actually trying to do my job and kill all specials but the other players are all already doing that so I am somewhat left to just mop up, not a good climate to use exe really imo
zealot with bolt pistol, zealot with boltgun, psyker with EP brain burst
paper trellis
Whole reason I made that shitpost grenade build was to let off some steam after finally getting the penance
cyan verge
lol fair
paper trellis
After the responses realized I could make one that was more than just for shits and giggles so going to tinker once I get home from work
crisp oak
What grenadiers, theyre great
balmy flume
I would not want to try it in aurics where everyone is actively competing for sp...
They are doing it wrong, Havoc is where you farm special kills.
So. Many. Specials.
Entire SQUADS of specials.
inland orchid
paper trellis
Havok is fun, exec stance build is very much not. I don’t want to play havok with it
Once I get my krak penance done I can phase them out too
cyan verge
what gun did you run with it
paper trellis
Recon
cyan verge
oh sure