veteran-class

[stoic thorn]

I desperately crave for a hot shot lasgun

[tame lodge]

"We are your sons, we are your daughter" 🗣️🔥

[verbal burrow]

You mean like a Vet build? Or what?

[stoic thorn]

"We have come home" 🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[verbal burrow]

at this point we may as well link it

https://youtu.be/q3QpmpMMu30?si=hyN2sWYKOwSvStk8

I do ask serious question about how much harm a Captain could realistically do

[hard cave]

normalize using the covers mechanic!!!

[verbal burrow]

Given how limited the number of troops under a captain's command is

Unless the Moebians literally don't know how a rank structure works and Captains are somehow in charge of a regiment

[hard cave]

Alot considering how powerful the 6th are

The 6th are the "champion" regiment of the mobeian domain

heroes prior to the darktide

[verbal burrow]

That would infer that they are using the old structure tho. Like how Regiments used to be during the 80 years war

Back when a Regiment was actually commanded by a Captain and it's size was only limited by budgetary constraints

[stoic thorn]

"People of Tertium, hear me, we are the Moebian 6th, returned and redeemed. Their chains no longer bind us, their bastions can no longer hold us. Once, we were lost, like you, blinded by faith and acceptance. Only when our eyes were opened, did we truly see the lies for what they were. We are your sons. We are your daughters. We have come home. It I'd our solemn pledge to bring about a new and glorious age of freedom and prosperity. Join us and cast off the false grip of the emperor."

[hard cave]

Id imagine there's a number of captains still on atoma occupying vital positions for the 6th and dregs

[stoic thorn]

I think Captain Wolfer just has command and control over the whole regiment

Or is the figurehead of the Moebians

[verbal burrow]

This also reveals a flaw in the Guard's usual plan to prevent treason by separating regiments into infantry / armor / artillery to weaken their individual combat power in the event of treason, because Wolfer's infantry regiment doesn't have to fear combined arms retaliation in pure urban warfare

[stoic thorn]

There might be a few other less significant captains managing the squads around Tertium

But he's the big bad

[hard cave]

most likely a figure heard, since there's still moebians in the areas that the fringe wars took place

[slow spade]

Not really because they're fighting us which is a huge disadvantage 😎

[verbal burrow]

I mean most squads I get via solo quickplay are indeed lamentable

[stoic thorn]

The moebian sixth has access to air forces and ground troopd

Not sure about armour though

[slow spade]

Na I'd win

[stoic thorn]

The only armour we see is the Leman Russ Demolishers

And it's our side?

[hard cave]

Theres also still some structure they use as well, considering cqb units are still used and labeled (yellow hazard strip on bulwark, crushers, flamer, maulers)

[pseudo fiber]

There's the abandoned one too in Ascension riser

[stoic thorn]

But alas we are the strike teams behind the enemy lines

[stoic thorn]

The one on the other end of the bridge at the start?

[verbal burrow]

Force organizational structure forbids them from having access to air troops. They may have once had dedicated air support but now that they are no longer loyalists, I doubt those pilots would still fly for them, save for the ones whose planes got hijacked

[pseudo fiber]

Yeah

[stoic thorn]

I think the Moebian armour is just deployed to fight against our Moebian 21st armour

[pseudo fiber]

Now we got 53rd

Uh

[verbal burrow]

Yeah based on the shit we see I would consider it not-impossible that the Moebian 6th specialized in urban warfare

[stoic thorn]

Judging by their lack of air superiority

[hard cave]

Oh no, they primarily specialized in urban warfare

[pseudo fiber]

They do that's why they beat the 21st so easily

[stoic thorn]

Yeah they just field the Valkyries for air transport

[pseudo fiber]

The 21st are based on an ocean planet

[hard cave]

The fringe wars primarily happened on hive worlds

[stoic thorn]

There's like only one enemy aircraft we've seen and it's the train?

[pseudo fiber]

And in the cutscene posted above

[stoic thorn]

Yeah

[verbal burrow]

The Moebian 6th and 21st can't really have armour because they are both infantry regiments, the 21st were, from the sparse description we found about them, sending recon units in, which suggests light infantry, which is not what you want in here. If the Imperials have tank support, then those are units detached from armored regiments as fire support.

[stoic thorn]

But it's most probable they got shot down by loyalist pilots

Also it's a Hive world

Maybe they make tanks over there

[hard cave]

The tanks are most likely atoma's tanks, being used by the 21st

[stoic thorn]

Was there a mission for us to stop tank production for the heretics?

[pseudo fiber]

There's a mission about making tanks

They turned off the smelter they aren't making tanks themselves

[stoic thorn]

Spares from Moebian Armoured Regiments lmfao

[verbal burrow]

Keep in mind that the only aircraft we've seen the 6th use is Valkyries, which are the Imperium's equivalent of what modern day Air Cav uses. They are absolutely not air superiority fighters.

[pseudo fiber]

Yet they plan on it though

[verbal burrow]

Nah they're doing a stalingrad and pulling new tanks straight from the assembly lines crewed by anyone with a pulse

[stoic thorn]

damn

Also

[verbal burrow]

That's why the loyalists don't let that factory go

[stoic thorn]

Where are the Moebians special weapons

If they are former guardsmen

[pseudo fiber]

The moebian 6th plan on using tanks eventually which is why they don't destroy the factory instead turn it off.

[stoic thorn]

Guardsmen squads get like one or two special weapons per squad

Wheres their plasmas

Or meltas

[pseudo fiber]

Boken

[stoic thorn]

Or did they just fully spec into flamers

I mean they also have hot shot volleys

[pseudo fiber]

The captains have plasmas

[stoic thorn]

Wheres OUR hellguns?

[soft hound]

In canon plasma is extremely rare for guard.

[stoic thorn]

Plasma pistols no?

[verbal burrow]

Bro they've got Shotgunners, the Lasgunner version of heavy bolters, they've got flamers, they've got snipers, they're pretty well supplied

[hard cave]

orgyn destroyed them

[stoic thorn]

:(

[pseudo fiber]

Probably trying to figure out how to put it in and have a good place lol

[verbal burrow]

For a heavy infantry regiment specialized in urban warfare, they're pretty decked out

[stoic thorn]

Teue

True

[verbal burrow]

by guard standards

Keep in mind that the munitorum could've also just given them lasguns and a gold star

[pseudo fiber]

Longlas is another weapon I think fatshark would struggle to put in

[stoic thorn]

Haven't seen any heavy weapons teams though

No heavy bolters

But it's fair

[daring sage]

I feel having a scoped weapon wouldnt work well in this game

[verbal burrow]

Why would they want that when they have full auto hot-shot lasmen with heavy armor

[hard cave]

Keep in mind, they're most likely this decked out due to being the guard regiment of the moebian domain

[verbal burrow]

I understand that

[stoic thorn]

Fair

[pseudo fiber]

Because it wouldn't. But it's iconic.
So there's a balance to strike there

[stoic thorn]

Wait where tf are their grenade launchers then

[pseudo fiber]

That's a good question

[stoic thorn]

Did they really take all their grenades from their grenade launchers

And put them into madmen

Are they fucking stupid

[pseudo fiber]

Vet should have a grenade launcher as well

[stoic thorn]

Hm yes let us sacrifice range and power for

I don't know

[verbal burrow]

I get the distinct feeling that when it came to the Moebian 21st, the moebian domain did in fact just give them flak armor and lasguns and call it a day

[soft hound]

Bomber grenades are probably IEDs in all fairness.

[hard cave]

that and rebreathers

[soft hound]

The 6th may have just not gotten GLs issued

[hard cave]

The 21st probably have some bad ass diver specialists with cool stuff

[stoic thorn]

Forgor

[pseudo fiber]

They were on a supply run

On atoma

Before being yoinked by grendyl

[stoic thorn]

I liked it when the Moebian 6th went

[pseudo fiber]

To say they weren't prepared is an understatement

[stoic thorn]

It's moebing time

[pseudo fiber]

And once again the 21st are an aquatic regiment

[stoic thorn]

And moebed all over Tertium

[hard cave]

They means like ingeneral when it came to supplying the regiment prior to the darktide .3.

[pseudo fiber]

They fight on an ocean planet

[slow spade]

Imagine if the 6th had nade launchers lol

[verbal burrow]

I loved that part

[daring sage]

I do hope they add more weapons

[pseudo fiber]

We'll get more

What though

[stoic thorn]

Missed opportunity for moebius

[soft hound]

It will happen with time.

[pseudo fiber]

I wanna know

[slow spade]

Hotshots added for scab gunners

[stoic thorn]

Aren't their guns

Hotshots already

[verbal burrow]

I will say tho

[slow spade]

Those are volley guns

[stoic thorn]

Hotshot volleys

[daring sage]

Meltagun enemy so they have longlas and meltas but we dont

[verbal burrow]

There are certain moments, in very open spaces with a lot of cover, where I genuinely see teams getting fucked up by Moebian 6th lasmen

[slow spade]

I hope not lol

[soft hound]

Meltas for zealot, GL for vet, an infantry las gun with a bayonet.

[stoic thorn]

The ones the kasrkin use are Hot-Shot volleys

[slow spade]

Indeed

[soft hound]

Gunners are nasty, I make it my primary job as vet to nail them.

[slow spade]

I find dreg ragers the worst

[stoic thorn]

And I don't think any regular ass guard squad carries normal volleys

[candid agate]

i hate all enemies equally

[stoic thorn]

So I'm just assuming those are Hot-Shot Volleys

[soft hound]

Bolters/Plasma are great against ghem

[slow spade]

If it was hotshots, we'd be dead before we knew what hit us

[verbal burrow]

Specifically that one area where you have to move 2 trains out of the way to advance. I notice that a lot of lasgun boys will pile up behind you as you advance, and if the team has no one who can shoot through cover, like plasma guns or bolters, the little Moebian 6th lasgun boys suddenly start moving from cover to cover, and suppressing enemies with volume of fire, without gunners being involved

[slow spade]

Indeed

[candid agate]

god guardsman are so cool

[slow spade]

Except scab stalkers

They can go fuck themselves

[verbal burrow]

Obviously this problem can be solved by simply fucking moving into the airlock and pressing the button, but sometimes people do not do this. One person lingers, gets downed, and then the rest are divided between remaining in the airlock or going back to save the team, and they trickle into the field of fire one by one

[stoic thorn]

They are literally armed with the same thing as kasrkin

It's hotshots

[slow spade]

They're not

But ok

[stoic thorn]

Do you literally need me to pull up the sprue?

[verbal burrow]

I'll make it really clear tho, I'm not referring to hotshots or shotgunners, I mean the regular Lasgun people. If you give them enough time and numbers they will just do what I described above

[stoic thorn]

I will kill you on this hill and say it is a hotshot volley gun

[soft hound]

They are nasty in the amphitheatre too

[stoic thorn]

The defining feature of the hotshot range is the backpack tube

[slow spade]

Apparently the only fully automatic lasguns are recons and hotshots to you lol

[jagged stream]

Og columnus became the vraks now yah? Im guessin its no longer king dps?

[slow spade]

Bro what

Jesus christ

[soft hound]

If it is wired from a backpack it's a hotshot, that's established cannon.

[verbal burrow]

Obviously I don't have this problem because I own a plasma gun, just as the founding fathers intended, but I see teams of sub-20 players getting into serious trouble when there's no more melee oriented chaff to use as toughness bar power-ups

[slow spade]

No its not lol where the fuck does it state that lol

[stoic thorn]

Try googling

[soft hound]

You absolutely have to have someone with ranged precision fire or your team is boned.

[stoic thorn]

Volley lasgun

[gritty mural]

hmmm the dreg auto gun backpack means its a hotshot

[slow spade]

Ikr

[stoic thorn]

And it'll bring up the hot shot volley gun

[soft hound]

Almost every guard codex and many of the books?

[stoic thorn]

There is no such thing as a regular volley gun

[slow spade]

That doesn't mean its the only one lol

[soft hound]

Gr8 b8

[stoic thorn]

In no warhammer literature or gameplay was there a non hotshot volley gun

It's a hotshot volley

[soft hound]

Also. This shit really doesn't matter 🙂

[slow spade]

Indeed

[stoic thorn]

Hell no I'm bringing up the kasrkin sprue for this

[soft hound]

Tch

[slow spade]

Lol

[stoic thorn]

Oh I don't really need to

Turns out I did accidentally arm my kasrkin trooper with the Hot Shot Volleygun

Nevermind

[soft hound]

If they do a melta it needs to be a zealot weapon.

I was bummed we didn't get a backpack flamer though.

[stoic thorn]

Why does my comms kasrkin

Have the hotshot volley

[slow spade]

Melta would be fun

[stoic thorn]

True

[slow spade]

Thought it'd probably be a Vet weapon

Personally I'm hoping for a longlas

[stoic thorn]

Oh nevermind

[soft hound]

Really should be a Zealot weapon, flame weapons are an ecclesiarchal obsession. .

[stoic thorn]

Found the hotshot volleygun

[woven oak]

Longlas would fill a similar niche to revolver? One powerful shot to bonk whatever you look at?

[soft hound]

Most likely.

[slow spade]

Cool ranged for vet

[woven oak]

Sniping in this sort of game is not the easiest. A Poxwalker will teleport behind you and Nothing Personnel Kid you

[slow spade]

They added like 50 melee weapons give me the cool sniper

[soft hound]

Though in the canon longlas tend to have about the same wattage as a standard, just a better focusing method for better performance at range and better optics.

[woven oak]

I mean, I would enjoy a longlas and a melta

Melta would be more my speed, personally. Empty a hallway

[soft hound]

Kinda bummed there isn't an armor strip mechanic like HD2

[stoic thorn]

It's hotshot

[soft hound]

Plasma and melta would rock that shit.

[stoic thorn]

Man looking at this sprue makes me wanna paint more kaskrib

[soft hound]

Dewit

[stoic thorn]

No money

[candid agate]

money is temporary, figures are permanent

[soft hound]

Could always seize the means of production.

[stoic thorn]

If they can't give us a hotshot lasgun

Give us a hotshot laspistol at least

Is there like a rotation in the premium shop

I want to get my kasrkin fit

I saw a guy in the kasrkin fit

[soft hound]

What's people's thoughts on bolt pistol vs las pistol?

[hollow phoenix]

I’m waiting for Zealot to get a Power Sword and Storm Shield combo weapon like what Oggy has

[hollow phoenix]

Bolt Pistol, I have better aim with it and it hits like a truck

[soft hound]

Oh yeah, like the crusader before they moved to legends.

[stoic thorn]

One cauterises the hole but the other makes it bigger

[wild summit]

does glory hunter + born leader work?

[hollow phoenix]

I also want Zealot to get more Medieval armor/Ecclesiarchical Robes

[stoic thorn]

We got a bladeguard veteran at home

Wheres the astartes anyway

You're telling me more than a thousand chapters but not one has sent anyone

I mean it's typical marine behaviour

[soft hound]

If only two guard regiments have been dispatched, the war for Atoma is pretty small potatoes. Also there's a whole inquisitorial warband here.

[slow spade]

Its likely not severe enough

Like Necromunda is fine

And it has a genestealer cult

[stoic thorn]

I mean it's only like one Hive city

[slow spade]

All hive cities have their own doomsday threat UwU

[soft hound]

Would love to see a 40k game set on an agriworld. Maybe like an armored command style game.

[terse idol]

Thats

Alottttaaaa

Firepower

It ain't exactly small beans but it ain't galaxy wide

[shell python]

i know they sent the 6th and 21st but did anybody else arrive to replace the 6th after they turned into a hereticus militarum?

also as an analogy, id say the war for atoma is like…

[terse idol]

The Moebian 53rd

Just got sent

[shell python]

like a crime thats above local police presence but below federal involvement

so like, the state troopers are responding

[terse idol]

Well suffice it to say it is the battle for the whole of atoma

With an important resource that's valuable for the imperium

Moebian steel

[shell python]

yeahhh, still seems exactly like a state-level response though

[terse idol]

Like, I'd say that goes above state trooper

It is army level

[shell python]

no guard regiments outside of moebian ones have arrived

[shell python]

eeeeh

[terse idol]

Because of the whole warp situation

[shell python]

id say army level is multiple astartes responding

[terse idol]

Its why we can't get alot of reinforcements

[shell python]

federal level would be one astartes chapter responding

also i totally forgot

[terse idol]

I just don't think you can compare real life structure to 40k

[shell python]

yeah lol

40k’s scale is off the charts

[terse idol]

The astra militarum deals with probably 80-90% of conflicts

Astartes are bigger guns but they're also like for specific uses

Guard regiments touch ground first in most conflicts i imagine and if it escalates, space marines can be sent

Multiple astartes regiments means you have like

A tear in the warp

Massive tyranid invasion fleet with multiple slivers attacking multiple planets

[shell python]

yeahhh, the only thing that could warrant multiple astartes on atoma is probably like
a greater daemon or something emerging

[terse idol]

You don't just send multiple astartes regiments

[shell python]

or a heretic astartes like the death guard arriving

[terse idol]

The death guard arriving would probably mean.. that's preeetty bad

[soft hound]

Keep in mind that the splinter fleet in SM2 only warranted a single Kill team and one company of ultramarines.

[terse idol]

And you'd have multiple astartes chapters coming in

[terse idol]

Well the kill team died

To try to deliver the viral bomb

[soft hound]

Accomplished the mission

[terse idol]

Kill teams are sent into missions where you need to send in a small team quickly if anything

[terse idol]

Its not a good displaaayyy

Considering Titus also nearly died

But that's the risk when you send in a small strike squad like a kill team

[soft hound]

I'm just saying that a whole chapter mobilizing requires a colossal threat.

[terse idol]

Like a Horus Heresey Astartes chapter

Yeah that's fair

[stoic thorn]

If there's a greater daemon in Tertium

Grey Knights coming thru

[tawdry jackal]

It’s moebin time

[slow spade]

Clearly we need to send in a Dreadwing team

40k Warcrimes

[tall torrent]

Swap perks & blessings tho

Ideal is 69% thermal

[noble canyon]

Which one is preferred between the two Chainaxe marks on a fully melee-focused Vet build? I've been using Mk 12 as it actually hits a Crusher special attack one-shot BP; is there merit to using Mk 4?

[ocean heron]

major yippee moment for me

[wild summit]

kinda sad deadshot doesnt seem to work on plasma gun

could have made for a very spicy build

[ocean rock]

Oh yeah just imagine the constant cheap crits

[wild summit]

crit + no heat on crit + crit depending on heat

[tall torrent]

It wouldn’t matter that much because charged shots are just not worth using on plasma

[wild summit]

[faint beacon]

Space marines get sent in if it’s an extremely important objective or extremely dire situation

[wild summit]

not even then, i keep saying, imagine if death guard came in, there would still be reasons for space marines to not come in and help

space marines are usually sent in for planets that REALLY need it due to the overall value of the planet

[ocean rock]

Yeah I usually don't charge my plasma shots. I think they use far more ammo just for that extra dmg and spicy crit

[wild summit]

ofc, not all chapters follow the rule

but say blood angels, would not be sent in for some offshoot planet

[tall torrent]

Yea, unfortunately
Plasma also has very low finesse so crits don’t even do that much (regular shots’ crit hits a couple bodyshot 1 taps)

[tall torrent]

It’s not extra damage, it’s lower damage
Regular shot x3 (9 ammo) does more damage than 1 charged shot (also 9 ammo)

[wild summit]

its more about being able to oneshot ogryns

[tall torrent]

Uncharged x3 is the same ammo use vs crusher, but u get more leeway in terms of headshot

[wild summit]

counterpoint, for me my philosophy is "just dont miss"

i know its not always realistic

but popping a crusher in one hit is SO satisfying

[tall torrent]

Then just use regular shots 100% the time and click heads

Not that complicated

[wild summit]

can normal hits oneshot crushers?

[tall torrent]

No, but you shouldn’t be needing to use plasma to kill crushers

[wild summit]

its not about needing it

its about oneshotting

i wanna oneshot

[tall torrent]

Pretty sure u also need carapace damage perk on plasma to 1 tap with some consistency

[wild summit]

so far i found that the krieg las gun ... i genuinely forgot the name holy crap, and the plasma gun can oneshot

[wild summit]

you dont actually

[full kettle]

Best las variant, go

[tall torrent]

Which strips u from running other perks that are actually good

[wild summit]

but you gotta invest into damage A LOT

[tall torrent]

It’s either carapace or exe stance

[full kettle]

I’m liking the Helbore recently

[wild summit]

that or you run the bottom left keystone talents

which works reather easily if you ask me

[tall torrent]

Please don’t run marksman’s focus on plasma lol

[wild summit]

but you gotta waste some initial shots into a horde 😂

[north raptor]

i appreciated this a lot

[tall torrent]

Nah, u don’t need to

Focus target is better

[wild summit]

that is the obvious alternate choice to me

[tall torrent]

That’s the superior choice 95% the time

[wild summit]

tbf i LOVE MMF whenever i run say agripina or las recon

jsut getting 15 stacks within 5 seconds

[tall torrent]

Neither of them fit well for marksman’s focus

Because of the way finesse is calculated

[full kettle]

what would yall say is the best las variant

[tall torrent]

Recon / laspistol

[ocean rock]

True fan of the Agri brato with MMF. Horde clearing capabilities is unmatched

[wild summit]

the old columnus with MMF is amazing tho

[tall torrent]

Because it’s an actually high finesse gun

[wild summit]

yup, insanity

[tall torrent]

Unlike braced Autoguns or recons or plasma gun

[wild summit]

i mean, the little damage bonus ... idk if the recon profits more from the damage bonus or from the other

[tall torrent]

You need to understand how finesse works to see why it’s a bad fit for those weapons

+%finesse is not equal to +%damage

If your gun does 50 damage on bodyshot, 100 damage on headshot
Getting +30% weakspot finesse (game writes weakspot damage) will give you:
50 + (100-50) x1.3 = 115 damage in total

You need a large discrepancy between weakspot/crit and base damage for +%finesse to perform better

Recon Lasguns, braced autoguns and plasma gun all have very low base finesse modifiers

[ocean rock]

My understanding is finesse is = to weakspot dmg, which works for me when it's easy to hit heads in a swarm and enemies standing on the same height

[shadow dagger]

damage buffs only applying to the bonus damage and not the total damage

[tall torrent]

Then you understood it wrong

[wild summit]

think i will read this later, thanks for replying, makes it easier to find ❤️

[tall torrent]

It’s a very weapon-dependent thing

[shadow dagger]

it's a wonder fatshark didn't realize it was an awful way to implement that since at least vt2

[tall torrent]

You should read the pinned guide here, a lot of useful info

[shadow dagger]

ctrl f only works once per page refresh for the guide and idk if that's bc it's 100 pages long and my PC can't handle it or if microsoft word is chewing rocks on company time as always

[tall torrent]

There’re hyperlinks all across the guide

[shadow dagger]

yeah I really should start using those

[tall torrent]

Weapon icons for weapon pages
Blessing icons for blessing pages
Talent icons for talent tree

[shadow dagger]

also, redirect fire wasn't always 1.5% right

[tall torrent]

Category title is also hyperlinked back to “table of contents”

[tall torrent]

It was always +1.5%/stack

+7.5% base

[shadow dagger]

oh

I vaguely remember seeing 2.5% at one point but I never really paid attention to that node

always used the toughness/stamina one

[slow spade]

I like the damage node more

Mhmmm damage c:

[shadow dagger]

I need the stamina to bail me out when get sloppy with dodges and have to awkwardly stand there blocking until my dodge count comes out of the yellow

[tardy rivet]

What would u guys suggest blessings wise/perks for Rashad on vet?

[tame lodge]

Unarmored+ whatever I don't remember
Brutal Momentum and Headtaker

[shadow dagger]

consult the guide in pins

I believe it's unarmored flak?

[hollow phoenix]

Anyone here a master of understanding the skill trees

[tall torrent]

Carapace + elite/unarmored
brutal momentum + headtaker

[hollow phoenix]

because I’m definitely punching above my weight here

[tall torrent]

Check pinned guide

[hollow phoenix]

Oh no not to navigate

I mean to make an entirely new one

See my issue now

[tall torrent]

What weapons, ability and keystone do u want

[vernal rock]

Best blessings for plasma?

[hollow phoenix]

It’s a theoretical Admech class. I have all the blitzes, abilities, keystones aura and modifiers ready. I just need to know how to make the routes of passive nodes and tax nodes

When I said make a new one

I meant

[tall torrent]

Gets hot + rising heat/gloryhunter/focused cooling

Or, blaze away + optimized cooling

[hollow phoenix]

I’m making a new one

[tall torrent]

Oh, sorry I can’t help there

I don’t rly care for playable admech

[hollow phoenix]

May the Omnissiah guide me on this trek

[vernal rock]

You're a God

[tall torrent]

Check pinned guide (link)

[idle swallow]

have people check pins first in discord in any server challenge (impossible)

i never do either tbh

[tawny badger]

I started getting the hang of the mk 3 power sword

https://tenor.com/view/always-sunny-frank-oh-my-god-i-get-it-gif-22328165

[hollow ibex]

Good now use the mk6 instead because it’s better

[tame lodge]

But not marginally better

[odd sparrow]

much better in the crusher killing department

[hollow ibex]

Much better in the everything department

[odd sparrow]

mk6

true

[idle swallow]

if you really really really like heavy attacks then a (weak) argument could be made for mk3

but really just learn Mk6 moveset

https://tenor.com/bHkoI.gif

[orchid hemlock]

This entire conversation can be converted to the knife as well

[idle swallow]

Turns out fantastic mobility in a game all about movement and dodging while still retaining strong single target damage is really strong, I am shocked

[glacial yacht]

whats the go to blessings for the ol duelling sword?

[viral nacelle]

Reminds me of Tool

[hollow ibex]

Well for knife the light attack spam option is generally considered weaker

So not quite the same scenario

[robust panther]

https://tenor.com/view/chefs-kiss-french-chef-perfect-dish-excellent-food-perfection-gif-20341505

[slow spade]

2% off reload?

Bricked

[bleak blade]

Veterans are all masochists or only most?

[serene bough]

Wouldn't really call vet a masochistic class

[bleak blade]

I have flawed understanding then. I always see sad vets on 4 difficulty

Maybe is just environment

[misty delta]

according to fat shark stats, vet is the most played class, meaning that it has the most idiots among them

[serene bough]

Well bads will be bads but vet can play very comfortably with some meta builds that trivialize the game

[spiral dock]

does plasma gun mastery still crash the game with mods?

[timid wolf]

Emperor's flashlight go BRRRRR

[molten hound]

Playing plasma gun shout vet for 100 hours made me shit at the game

It's just so easy

[wild summit]

question

which guns are a good choice for marksmen focus?

been told plasma gun is bad at it, so i would like to get some more info on the whole finesse thing and stuff

[tall torrent]

Laspistol, infantry autogun

[tall torrent]

Check pinned guide (link)

[wild summit]

which one?

there are a few

[tall torrent]

Top

The one drive link

[wild summit]

aight

[wild summit]

okay that explains is quiet a bit

however, how can i check that discrepency?

only by seeing a finesse stat on the weapon or somehow else as well?

[tame lodge]

Probably by inspecting your weapon adms

[wild summit]

adm?

[tall torrent]

Check weapon damage table via inspect

If there’s a huge difference between body & weakspot, it’s a high finesse weapon

[wild summit]

oh wow ... wait ... that wasnt there since release was it?

that is a very nice stat table @_@

also, what do we call huge? 50%

[tall torrent]

It’s also not very accurate

But the damage stuff is ok

Usually

[wild summit]

[tall torrent]

If weakspot is 2x body damage, high finesse

+50% is not enough

[wild summit]

damn, okay 😄 so literally 100%

[tall torrent]

Think this way
If u have weakspot be +50%

+10% weakspot finesse makes that number go to +55%

[wild summit]

and crits really do not do much of anything for plasma gun if the damage stat is accurate

[tall torrent]

Crits do help

But they’re mostly for bodyshot 1 taps

Helps with 1 tap consistency

[wild summit]

question then, why gets hot?
Is it just for that consistency?

cause crit damage does not climb by much at all

[tall torrent]

Easily maintained crit chance

You can maintain 40% crit chance bonus from it in active combat

And crits do help with 1 tap consistency so it’s not bad

[wild summit]

well will go into the psykanium and tinker with that knowledge a little, thank you 😉
Btw question about the tree, compared to the other trees, is maybe the vets tree a little bloated by comparison?

[gray nebula]

does the Ghost blessing still combo with Duck & Dive for free stamina?

maybe it never did, been months since I played

[wild summit]

wait holy shit

i actualy oneshot that crusher without a headshot

my brain just exploded

[hollow phoenix]

If you have the modifier for exe stance and someone kills a marked enemy, does that refresh the timer?

[wild summit]

no

[hollow phoenix]

Damnitn

[wild summit]

it would be cool if that one talent did that

that marks them for allies as well

would give it more reason to run honestly

[tall torrent]

I don’t think bloat is the problem, I think having talents that are just bad is the problem

There’re so many bait talents on vet tree

[wild summit]

for example? not saying you are wrong but no talent jumps to mind immediately ... oh wait, 5% chance for nade

[tall torrent]

Longshot (bad)
Killzone (mid)
Opening salvo (mid)
Marksman’s focus as a whole (unintuitive & effects not immediately accessible, unreliable for precision weapons’ breakpoints)
Covering fire (mid)
Inspiring presence (horrible)
Competitive urge (mid)
Focussed fire (bait)
Surprise attack (low uptime)
Exploit weakness (mid)
Skirmisher (bad)
Fleeting fire (mid)
Conditioning (mid)

Left side needs help

[faint beacon]

Left side is just the definition of lukewarm

Cause it’s encouraging a sniping playstyle in a game where like that’ll happen 10% of the time in a match

[tall torrent]

I’d be so happy if they swap superiority complex with extra ammo

Just swap their places

Basically nobody takes ammo for ammo

It’s a pathing node to superiority complex/marksman

Give me precision strikes -> superiority complex -> marksman pathing and I’ll be taking left side bottom much more seriously

[strange crow]

Pretty sure that one is actually good depending on build no?

[faint beacon]

Honestly I’m one to enjoy more ammo but yeah if they got swapped I’d be all for it

[tall torrent]

Demo team is actually good

[hollow ibex]

Wait I do

[faint beacon]

It’s a QOL talent

But it’s not impactful

[hollow ibex]

Ammo is nice 😭

[tall torrent]

I just think having to take extra ammo which leads into:
shock trooper (more ammo for las weapons)
Superiority complex (damage, good)
Marksman (strength, good)
Is kind of mediocre

[muted prairie]

i like the ammo one cuz it's +25% ammo regen/pickup too

[tall torrent]

I’d much rather that 25% ammo be in the same depth as shock trooper and marksman

[hollow ibex]

But yeah it’s also the way to other talents I want

[viral nacelle]

as an ammo whore i would take three ammo traits

[tall torrent]

So it’s very clear what you need
Las-weapons -> shock trooper
Regular weapons -> extra ammo
More damage -> marksman

[viral nacelle]

i dont even use the ammo i just like seeing i have much

[muted prairie]

honestly, my main problem with vet tree is that there's too many talents that for me at least feel mandatory/just significantly stronger than others

[tall torrent]

A lot of talents need work

Basically everything in that list above

But zealot needs a tree overhaul more than vet

[hollow ibex]

My favorite is fleeting fire. Like wtf is that.

[tall torrent]

So idk when/if it’ll be even considered

[viral nacelle]

zealot tree rn: "would you like to be an unkillable ultra damage god? or like not?"

[wild summit]

wait wait wait wait ... focused fire is bait?

[strange crow]

Zealot with their one good cdr talent and one good aura

[muted prairie]

everything in weapon specialist except for "load 1 bullet" talent feels like wasted points

[strange crow]

💀

[wild summit]

care to explain cause that kinda shatters my reality

[tall torrent]

Yea it’s a huge bait

[muted prairie]

eh it's sorta debateable

[tall torrent]

Because focus target has a refresh of 2 stacks

[tall torrent]

Nah it’s just bait

Even for ur bodyshot case u just need 1 rising heat stack

There’s no downtime

[muted prairie]

it combos well with redirect fire for +4.5% damage teamwide

[tall torrent]

It combos badly with redirect fire

[muted prairie]

most cases won't need a 5% damage node

[tall torrent]

Because redirect fire is already +7.5% by itself

With 1 point cost

Focused fire is +4.5% (less) for the same cost

It’s just bait

[muted prairie]

right, which shows that redirect fire is super strong

smaller redirect fire is still strong

[wild summit]

so .. wait i dont get it

[tall torrent]

It’s just not worth

For that same point cost there’re better options

[muted prairie]

he's basically saying that you're very rarely on all 8 stacks, so you don't really benefit from it

don't benefit from marking dudes with it, at least

[hollow phoenix]

3 penances done in one mission

[terse idol]

I can understand, if anything it's because you won't cook 8 stacks very often on auric cause you got aloottaa things to mark

[hollow phoenix]

Now all that’s left in the gunner playstyle is regenerating ammo and roleplaying a crab for a while

[wild summit]

i did some testing btw, holy shit:

[muted prairie]

oof good luck with that one, i haven't even touched marksman's focus

[tall torrent]

Basically, if you’re actually playing the keystone correctly, you’ll have 2 stacks on every marked target (if marked target is killed within 2s after being marked, your stacks reset to 2)

Outside of the very first enemy you mark in a fight, none of them will get benefit from the 8 stacks node

This means that 8 stacks, functionally only gives u +4.5% damage via redirect fire (which on its own gives +7.5%)

So it’s just +4.5% damage for 1 point, when there’re much better options to take basically all the time

[hollow phoenix]

I hate the gunner archetype so much

[faint beacon]

Bingo

[hollow phoenix]

I don’t wanna sit back and snipe

I want to be the team leader or the Doomslayer smh

[faint beacon]

It’s why I really want melee to benefit and proc from Marksman Focus

[tall torrent]

Even if u needed that 4.5% more damage for a breakpoint (exceedingly rare)
Chances are, there’s a teammate veteran running fire team

So it literally just does not matter

[wild summit]

so technically the only use would be against bosses and first target of battle?

[viral nacelle]

i just want them to remove the "no moving" penalty

it'd instantly be good

ish

[native quartz]

i love how veteran has some really shite options for the way high difficulties play but also some of the strongest stuff in the game

[viral nacelle]

whatever itd be usable

[faint beacon]

Imo MF should literally be a “Skill Check” keystone where you have to hit heads regardless of weapon to maintain stacks

[tall torrent]

Against a boss, kind of
But it’s not that big of a difference

[native quartz]

why does it have to be so bipolar in quality

[muted prairie]

a bit extra damage on bosses, the first target of an engagement, fireteam aura if you're also running redirect fire (which you should)

[wild summit]

well that puts things into perspective

[faint beacon]

Cause like good players can easily maintain max focus if so

[hollow phoenix]

If only the gunner subclass didn’t make you sit your ass down far back

[muted prairie]

so overall it's not as impactful as some other nodes, but it's still a solid pick

[native quartz]

real

[tall torrent]

It needs to work at the start of fights, not “after I’ve head shotted 3 dudes I get to have benefit”

[tall torrent]

Nah it’s really just bait for 1 point

[native quartz]

and idrk what the melee subclass does i havent played around with it yet

[viral nacelle]

i think its weird that left side tree has a picture of a dude with a massive LMG and then the keystone is about aiming

[tall torrent]

It’s not impactful basically ever

[hollow phoenix]

It’s not even a melee subclass

It’s a stealth subclass that weaves in between ranged and melee

Basically Guerilla warfare the character

Weaving in and out of stealth suppressing enemies

[native quartz]

its looked interesting

[viral nacelle]

the right side keystone is very nice

[hollow phoenix]

Weapon specialist is nice

But Focus Target? Mmmmm

that’s some good shit right there

[native quartz]

right now im just really enjoying middle tree stuff

[faint beacon]

Idk coming from someone who likes snowballing I like the idea of it dropping but the momentum you kill a few weak enemies via Weakspots boom you get a shit ton of stacks

[tall torrent]

It’s simple

Does your weapon need focus target for breakpoints?
Yes -> focus target
No -> weapon specialist

[viral nacelle]

ive found middle tree good for vomiting so much toughness on teammates that they can only die by getting ledged or disabled

[hollow phoenix]

Deadly accurate is a must have on Bistol right?

I’m not crazy?

[tall torrent]

Make it drop from non-weakspot hits like executor

[tall torrent]

No

[native quartz]

yeah i try to be very team focused with my playstyle

[tall torrent]

You might be

[native quartz]

try and keep everyone up and moving, deal with specials as fast as i can

[hollow phoenix]

Considering I’m making a whole new class with its own skill tree I definitely might be

[native quartz]

im pretty much all middle tree except for frags and this little detour to left side

[terse idol]

A liiittllee

I'd consider it melee for sure

[hollow phoenix]

It’s the most melee of the three

But it’s not itself an entirely melee subclass

[muted prairie]

it's got comparably melee to a zealot

[terse idol]

You mainly play most in melee then whip out your volver or whatever for key targets

[viral nacelle]

bolt pistol imo

[terse idol]

Iirc, vet has better melee than zealot

[muted prairie]

in like, specific scenarios it does

[tall torrent]

It’s zealot but more melee damage

[muted prairie]

i'd say overall zealot has better melee damage

[soft trellis]

I've actually had it where when I had the 5% damage aura I was able to 2 shot a crusher on the power sword on the build I had, but, not on the ammo regen aura which was only missing 5% more damage

[native quartz]

with the current state of the game any class with a duelling sword is just busted in melee

[muted prairie]

hammer, it seems we disagree again

[tall torrent]

Fire team does help and has no conditions attached, it’s ok

[soft trellis]

It was both hilarious and depressing at the same time

[muted prairie]

what do you mean more damage?

[tall torrent]

Yea, even for ur 1 bodyshot case, you could hit that with 1 rising heat or blaze away stacks

[viral nacelle]

idk why it didnt stay limited to psyker, it was such a bad idea giving it to classes that dont die on touch

[native quartz]

yeah

[hollow phoenix]

What blessings does Bistol want?

If not deadly accurate

[misty delta]

surgical puncture

[tall torrent]

I have no idea why you specifically need that +4.5% damage when u could achieve the same exact thing by firing ur gun once

[native quartz]

i picked it up for the first time last night and the whiplash i felt from just tapping everything was wild

[soft trellis]

also the explosion radius on the bolt pistol affects nades since it's a global buff

[muted prairie]

honestly, my hot take is that i think duelling sword is good, but not busted

[uncut pebble]

There's multiple ways of building it for vet. Need to know your build to give a proper response.

[muted prairie]

i meant about zealot having less melee damage lol

[tall torrent]

You said it urself u needed only 1 blaze away/rising heat stacks, so that 4.5% should never need to come into play ever

[tall torrent]

Yea they do

[native quartz]

i assume thats because its only just decent with horde clear

[hollow phoenix]

Basically target leader for marking threats and hopefully landing a crit Weakspot hit to one shot

[muted prairie]

anyways, since you brought it up

[uncut pebble]

So youre running focus target?

[hollow phoenix]

Yes

[misty delta]

I need to find a build where I can use that, but surgical is too good and puncture keeps hitting new breakpoints whenever I try to add damage to get rid of it xd

[uncut pebble]

What grenade?

[muted prairie]

because the situation where i'm between 30 heat and like, 50. and having to shoot a gunner. it comes up a lot in actual gameplay

[hollow phoenix]

Krak

Because fuck trying to one shot Crushers and Maulers

[uncut pebble]

I would say surgical puncture then.

[muted prairie]

oh and i swapped off blaze away for gets hot, doing some testing

[tall torrent]

At 30 heat you already have one rising heat stack

[hollow phoenix]

Ight, ty

[muted prairie]

that's what i'm saying

[uncut pebble]

If you were using shredders I'd say puncture lethal prox.

[muted prairie]

8 stacks basically makes my breakpoint requirement one rising heat stack lower

which happens a lot in actual gameplay

[uncut pebble]

Weapon spec makes good use of deadly accurate puncture.

[tall torrent]

What you’re saying is that you need just 1 rising heat stack, and you get 1 stack at 19% heat, 2 stacks at 37% heat

If you’re somehow unable to maintain >37% heat on plasma gun I think that’s more of a you thing than a gun thing

[terse idol]

Gets hot is just betterrr

[muted prairie]

for early in the fight, or just after venting, it happens a lot

[terse idol]

Blaze away doesn't give that much damage

[tall torrent]

I cannot comprehend the reason you’re keeping plasma purposefully between 30~50% heat

[hollow phoenix]

Blowing up if the fun part, fight at 90 you cowards

[muted prairie]

because when i shoot from 0 heat it goes between those two numbers?

[terse idol]

You never blow up anyways

Plasma gameplay rarely if ever needs you to right click to shoot

[muted prairie]

i legit wish i blew up more

[viral nacelle]

i have seen several vets blow up

[native quartz]

how is my talent build looking (feeling comfortable on regular damn, looking to push up into aurics)

[viral nacelle]

it makes the same sound as a psyker

[tall torrent]

You can’t blow up with regular shots which have more dps than charged shots

[muted prairie]

same, and all i can wonder is "why were you right clicking lmao"

[terse idol]

Because they're using right click

[hollow phoenix]

Damn

[uncut pebble]

You physically can't explode if you use plasma correctly.

[viral nacelle]

yes

[hollow phoenix]

My hopes and dreams are shattered

Same with Psycho Psyker warpsploding

[tall torrent]

Tag that enemy?

[uncut pebble]

Going over 100% auto vents it with lmb shots.

[terse idol]

Yah

[muted prairie]

yes, and adding all those buffs together gets the breakpoint

[terse idol]

I mean like you have to meet 2 conditions

[wild summit]

@tall torrent why run demolition team for the bolt pistol?

[muted prairie]

also, and i'm gonna say this again, it's teamwide damage

[terse idol]

Be at like 90% AND right click during that period

[wild summit]

isnt iron will better for the survivability?

[muted prairie]

5% isn't gonna destroy a crusher but it's still damage

[tall torrent]

It’s too low to matter

[terse idol]

Abit harder to blow up using right click on plasma than assail

Assails pretty easy to blow 😌

[muted prairie]

so 7.5% is enough to be absolutely bonkers, 4.5% is literally nonexistant?

[tall torrent]

Damage that doesn’t result in meaningfully better breakpoints is irrelevant, and for ur case, that breakpoint is built entirely on the assumption that you’re not going to headshot

[misty delta]

if your teammates need 5% dmg more than free ammo, I have some serious questions

[tall torrent]

7.5% for 1 point is worth it, 4.5% for 1 point isn’t

[terse idol]

4.5 is very very small

[muted prairie]

no, fire team is a waste aura lmao we're talking about the 8 stacks of focus fire lol

[viral nacelle]

nah surge/smite is the easiest to boom, i see good players do it regularly and i get hit by it from time to time too. or SG w/ staff

[tall torrent]

Which has the effect of fire team but 0.5% less and has conditions attached

[terse idol]

Fire team actually can give you a break point for some weapoons

[uncut pebble]

Surge or trauma makes me explode a lot, I agree.

[misty delta]

ppft agreed. ty for the context

[muted prairie]

which has the effect of fire team and LETS YOU TAKE THE GOOD AURA AS WELL

[terse idol]

Also it's 5% for your entire team which eh,I mean it's okay

[terse idol]

Again

[tall torrent]

Damage that doesn’t result in meaningfully better breakpoints is irrelevant, and for ur case, that breakpoint is built entirely on the assumption that you’re not going to headshot

[terse idol]

Fire team isn't that bad

When you need it

And!

Many vets build surv anyways

[tall torrent]

Read what I said

[muted prairie]

right, sorry for the fire team trashing, i know it isn't AWFUL

[winter grove]

What are y'all vets talking about

[misty delta]

breakpoints (what else is new)

[tall torrent]

You’re first off building this breakpoint on the assumption that you’re not going to headshot
Which is like, already an irregular breakpoint to build for

[muted prairie]

dude, the actual game isn't the meat grinder where you crunch breakpoints. people use full auto weapons, and there's tons of instances where 4.5% damage will get you a kill you otherwise wouldn't have

[tall torrent]

On top of that, needing 4.5% more damage just to take 1 less stack on a very easily maintained blessing is still just not worth

[muted prairie]

or get your team a kill they wouldn't have

[winter grove]

Rashad zarona plasma bolt

[hollow phoenix]

Is Deadshot worth getting if I’m running Surgical on a weapon?

[terse idol]

NOW TO BE FAIR

You will be shooting head in full auto

[tall torrent]

Dude, on a full auto weapon I don’t even give a shit about focus target

[terse idol]

The ttk difference is small enough to not matterrr

[hollow phoenix]

Focus Target is for burst weapons no?

[tall torrent]

Precision 1 shot weapons

[hollow phoenix]

So burst

[muted prairie]

you can, it's not bad

[hollow phoenix]

I might be using a different definition of burst

I just mean anything that kills quick in like one shot

[muted prairie]

oh then yeah for sure

[terse idol]

You may as well play Marksmens focus with full auto tbh

[misty delta]

not really worth. if you need 25% crit then just wait another .6 seconds and put the point elsewhere

[faint beacon]

Okay I’d be fine with that also that or drastically increase the grace period for Decay like DD

[tall torrent]

Ok give me examples

[misty delta]

also the stamina drain is mean if youre not used to it

[terse idol]

Focus target for most of the time is for single target/semi auto because you really are hitting 1 target

Marksmens focus ironically is just better for full auto weapons

[muted prairie]

sure, purgatus, flamer, brauto, stubbers, literally anything that your TEAM would bring that doesn't care about breakpoints

or even in my own kit, 4.5% lets you cleave heads with rashad a stack of headtaker early

[hollow phoenix]

Oh, I see why it’s a lot of melee damage now

[tall torrent]

No, give me examples of them needing precisely 4.5% more damage to kill something faster

[terse idol]

The flamer will kill regardless of 4.5% damage I'd imagine

[terse idol]

We gotta roll it back

How is your rashad built

[winter grove]

Burst as in high damage per shot?

[muted prairie]

and when will the 3% damage difference between the 7.5% and 4.5% be the make or break?

[winter grove]

Burst dmg and shit

[hollow phoenix]

Yeah

[winter grove]

Right

[hollow phoenix]

That’s what I usually mean by burst

[terse idol]

Because you should be able to cleave most targets without a stack of headtaker on the first hit

[hollow phoenix]

That and high damage within a short time

Whether it be 1 shot or a quick combo of things

Like the DB, I consider it burst

[muted prairie]

do you want me to record every match i play and count every single time i'm not running 8 stacks, and i see an enemy with just a smidge of life left?

[winter grove]

Guns that care for FT are usually single shot finesse guns

[tall torrent]

Where’s that 3% difference

I don’t take redirect fire unless I know that 7.5% more damage is gonna help me (specifically me) hit a breakpoint

[winter grove]

Lasguns, Plasma, Bolts

[terse idol]

That i will push back to say might just be because you don't have fire team

[hollow phoenix]

What’s a good dump passive node

[terse idol]

And fire team might have pushed you overr

[muted prairie]

7.5-4.5=3

[hollow phoenix]

I got one point left and don’t know where to shove it

[muted prairie]

and i totally agree, that's totally true

[tall torrent]

The difference is 4.5

Redirect fire is 7.5
8 stack + redirect fire is 12

[muted prairie]

but if i want the effect of fire team and ammo?

[tall torrent]

You can’t even math?

[misty delta]

send skill tree

[tall torrent]

What is this argument

[terse idol]

Uh

Shock trooper

Or on map ammo tins

We are in the fuuuture

[hollow phoenix]

I’m on Xbox so that might change things

[terse idol]

Sorry that sounded snarky

[tall torrent]

Again, I’m looking for specific examples you can provide where that 4.5% more damage is changing ur teammates’ breakpoints to make them kill things faster

[terse idol]

There are ammo tins on rhe map we gotta share anyways

[winter grove]

Show talent tree

We might help

[muted prairie]

the EFFECT of redirect fire is 7.5% damage. the EFFECT of 8 stacks is an extra 4.5%

[misty delta]

oh I see..

[hollow phoenix]

I can try putting it in gameslantern and screenshot that

[muted prairie]

so if you put a point into focused fire, you get EFFECTIVELY 4.5%

[faint beacon]

And it makes me mad

[tall torrent]

Hence the difference is 4.5%

[hollow phoenix]

Or

Better idea

[muted prairie]

and the difference between their perk values

[terse idol]

It really needs to cook better

[muted prairie]

aka spending one point to get 7.5, one point to get 4.5

[winter grove]

Please don't photo the screen

[muted prairie]

is 3% damage

[kindred creek]

Bolter Pistol without Puncture I think hits a break point on a few specials with 1 body shot 1 head shot or 2 body shots

[misty delta]

it’s too late you can’t stop the inevitable

[terse idol]

Basically the entire argument is you're paying an entire talent point (tax) for 4.5% more damage (conditional)

[hollow phoenix]

I stole this but altered it a bit, instead of going FT I went Surv and picked up Get Back in the Fight

[tall torrent]

Yes, this is what I said

Now, which automatic weapon’s breakpoint does that 4.5% extra damage give

[misty delta]

oh nvm

[tall torrent]

I’m still waiting

[winter grove]

1 second faster ttk on autopistol trust

[tall torrent]

Ur argument never stood in the first place

[terse idol]

Instead of just paying 1 talent (tax) for the 7.5%

[muted prairie]

you're telling me that you don't believe there's a single case where 4.5% TEAMWIDE DAMAGE will result in a kill?

[misty delta]

oh god uhh that tree is already full of passive nodes

[terse idol]

I mean, it's so situational if you want my opinion that it didn't mattterrr

[misty delta]

I guess put the point in agile engagement

[tall torrent]

I don’t believe in such cases happening so frequently that it’s worth spending 1 point to get there when u could get better things that would have resulted in more kills

[terse idol]

Because it assumes

You don't have the breakpoint built into your kit

And nobody could have hit it with anything else

[hollow phoenix]

Can’t, left with one point because of Surv path instead of FT

[terse idol]

And it wouldn't die to a dot

[faint beacon]

When the precision rifles get screwed out of making MF insanely good

[terse idol]

When they called it Marksmens focus but it should have been called.. I dunno "Commando"

[muted prairie]

this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree, because i feel that they happen often enough

[misty delta]

oh sorry I assumed you copied the tree exactly. Uhh do you have Confirmed Kill at the top?

[terse idol]

https://tenor.com/view/commando-arnold-hero-ready-to-fight-lets-goo-gif-26381178

[hollow phoenix]

Now I do

[winter grove]

Too bad MF supports the bad way to play darktide

[hollow phoenix]

[terse idol]

Its not as often as you rhink

[winter grove]

"Stand still tunnel visioned"

[misty delta]

[muted prairie]

if i could have fire team for a single point, just totally ignoring the tree, i'd take it

[terse idol]

Like and the times it actually changed the game

[hollow phoenix]

[terse idol]

Doesn't matter

[muted prairie]

and you wouldn't

[tall torrent]

Ok, what are the examples of that

[hollow phoenix]

MF needs an overhaul imo

[faint beacon]

Honestly yeah with how it only caters towards Autos, may as well Smudgels lmao

[hollow phoenix]

No one likes sitting their ass down in the backline in a horse shooter

[muted prairie]

every single game where an enemy is left at <5% hp

[hollow phoenix]

Not to mention how much you need to dodge and move forward

And frankly, Onslaught should be on the left side not the right

[winter grove]

Isn't it just simpler to take 5% dmg in coherency aura instead of taking that talent

[faint beacon]

Lose stacks everytime you do it

[winter grove]

That is really situational

[terse idol]

Your example is too specific because it assumes that the 1 enemy that didn't die with the 4.5% extra damage would have made a difference and killed your team where no other damage source would have killed it
Your team has no survivability AND you have no cds and somehow in this situation the 4.5% extra damage to your entire team killed the one enemy that ends your run

That's how niche it is

In reality

[muted prairie]

yes, but my point is that you essentially get that aura, without having to lock yourself to that aura

[hollow phoenix]

Get punished for doing what you need to do

Lmao

[muted prairie]

so you can get that aura, and also run survivalist

[terse idol]

Well you get 4.5% which isn't 5%

[winter grove]

Who even runs survivalist at this point

[terse idol]

Like

[tall torrent]

Ok, what are those specific examples then

Which enemy under what condition is left with <5% health

[faint beacon]

The stack loss will continue until morale improves

[somber axle]

Ignore the neigh sayers ( ) because sometimes that's kinda fun too (someone has to take care of the rows of gunners across a room and the snipers in a sniper gauntlet)

[hollow phoenix]

When your stacks drop to 0 the Commissar shoots you in the head

[somber axle]

Also the very rare time you can crouch behind cover and use the cover mechanic that most people either forget exists or never knew existed to begin with

[terse idol]

NOW TO BE FAIR i like
Ilas with mf and exe to solely kill all gunners

[winter grove]

Sneaky
The problem is that MF expects you to play like this entire match

[terse idol]

Its useful!

[terse idol]

Yes

[hollow phoenix]

That’s the real Guardsman’s experiment

[muted prairie]

well gee, between literally every weapon in the game, i'd have to say there's quite a few cases where an enemy would be left with 5% hp left

[winter grove]

Including the time game drops 12 crushers on your back

[terse idol]

I've played like that the entire game

[terse idol]

Again

[tall torrent]

Which weapon, with which attacks, can leave which enemy at <5% health

[muted prairie]

and i get when you're saying too dw

[tall torrent]

Because a lot of the time you have access to better things

[terse idol]

With the assumption that you or Literally ANYBODY ELSE didn't have the breakpoint for 5% damage on your entire team or the enemy escapes with 5% hp

[hollow phoenix]

God’s strongest soldier (Gunner Veteran) fighting his toughest battles (the 5 Crushers all ready to down swing onto you)

[tall torrent]

Rending strikes does more for the same 1 point cost

Demo team does more for the same 1 point cost

[winter grove]

The only gun you could effectively argue is a lasgun mk9

I am not joking

[muted prairie]

what kinda argument is this? you want me to literally experiment every single weapon in the game against every enemy? and then you want me to also include multiple different weapons from multiple different classes?

[winter grove]

The only gun

[hollow phoenix]

I mean

That’s how you get results

[terse idol]

Well the mk9 yeag cause it's stinky and very specific

[tall torrent]

Yea, you’re trying to prove that your argument stands, so you have to come up with results

[hollow phoenix]

You’re literally testing your hypothesis

[terse idol]

I would argue you could meet a bistol breakpoint with 4.5%

[somber axle]

It's definitely easier to do with Recons vs Infantry Lasguns in my experience but yeah it's fine and the Chink in their Armour rending with the rending from Rending Strikes can be a fun combo for the few times you have a gun that benefits immensely from the rending and the finesse (mostly just Infantry Lasgun and Laspistols I guess) but it feels REALLY good when you pop off with max MF stacks and shoot down an entire approaching pack of muties with very little ammo spent

[terse idol]

Again the assumption that you yourself didn't take fire team

[muted prairie]

alright so then let me ask you this. how often does the initial 7.5% damage boost do it then?

[hollow phoenix]

4.5% is less impactful on a High damage single shot weapon imo. The 4.5% on a faster firing high magazine weapon builds up over time

[terse idol]

Which IS a 5% damage buff in coherency that's always active

[somber axle]

Sadness is that Recons get very little from the finesse part of MF

[muted prairie]

do you have a table for every single gun on every single enemy?

[muted prairie]

yes, which is an effective aura

[terse idol]

a tiny bit
Single target weapons can get picky enough that you will be unable to kill a gunner because you didn't meet 5% damage

Single shot weapons suffer more for not having the bp

[winter grove]

The funny thing he might have

Considering he's making the guide

[muted prairie]

so why yall hating so much on what is essentially a slightly worse version of both fire team and redirect fire?

[winter grove]

Because it's useless

In grand scheme of things

[tall torrent]

Plasma gun, Boltpistol, Boltgun 1 HS gunners & flamers
Infantry Lasgun IIb consistent 1 tap gunners & flamers
Vigilant autogun 1 burst / 1 headshot gunners
Agripinaa shotgun regular shots vs gunners & flamers (increased 1 tap range)

[muted prairie]

so is fire team useless then?

[tall torrent]

I can go on

[winter grove]

Automatic weapons don't care for bps

[tall torrent]

Because that 7.5% actually changes breakpoints

[winter grove]

All the single shot ones already have their bps

[tall torrent]

And for a majority of these cases, fire team does the same result, but since some of them want survivalist, u get the same result with redirect fire

[winter grove]

That 4.5% ain't changing shit unless it's Lasgun mk9

[muted prairie]

great, now how about every weapon your teammates can bring? and all of their builds? and different perks and blessings for their weapons?

[muted prairie]

how do you feel about fire team?

[tall torrent]

I take talents for my own breakpoints, and teammates should build for their own breakpoints

You need to come up with cases where that 4.5% extra does matter

[winter grove]

Talent for point saving

[somber axle]

Nah but it has niche value and tbh the auras feel more like you pick them based on which gives the best pathing down toward more important talents tbh. If I could choose any aura without consequence I'd always pick Close and Kill because the movement speed feels very comfy to play with

[winter grove]

Lmao

[muted prairie]

i personally agree, @terse idol feels differently

[tall torrent]

So far you’ve not provided many cases where that 4.5% extra matters

[somber axle]

But Fire Team, Focus Target and Redirect Fire can be funny for the combined damage bonuses lumping together on a squad especially for boss fights

[muted prairie]

but 5% teamwide damage is 5% teamwide damage, i won't complain if a teammate takes it

[faint beacon]

Sneaky I’m going to say it right now, if people forget about that on Vet even in high intense scenarios that’s a genuine Skissue, cause like I’ve used that a handful of times per match to avoid being blitzed by gunners even whilst running around

[somber axle]

It's probably not going to majorly impact breakpoints for squadmates that already crunched their numbers to get what they want but tbh I don't think most Darktide players outside of this discord ever check the numbers that deeply

[muted prairie]

all it would take is to put on hp bar mod and look at every time an enemy is low but not dead

[terse idol]

It isn't in some circumstances

[muted prairie]

yup, that's my point exactly

[terse idol]

5% will actually push you into BP's

[tall torrent]

Do it then, show me that it comes up frequently enough that it matters

[terse idol]

Also most vets run surv anyways

[winter grove]

Only vets get it too I've noticed

[terse idol]

Like, fire team is abit underrated

[faint beacon]

QOL aura for the team anyways

[somber axle]

Yeah but it's more that the game does nothing to teach new players the mechanic even exists afaik LOL plus in higher difficulties movement ends up being more important vs cover a lot of the time for dealing with things in melee vs ranged. But it is so fun and comfy to use the cover system and also hilarious that only the Veteran understands they should keep their head down in a firefight

[terse idol]

Immmm

Hmmm i feel like yeah it's hard to understand for new players

[faint beacon]

They should probably add class specific tutorials imo

[tawdry jackal]

Sup

[faint beacon]

Showing off their talents

[tawdry jackal]

I actually kinda wanna crunch my numbers for a change, what’s the best way to go about it?

[terse idol]

Also cover system for short kings

[muted prairie]

i don't think i've taken cover once lol

[somber axle]

People end up sprinting around a bunch and dodging without really paying attention to crouching behind cover. You can dodge slide to avoid threats in melee and range + additional benefits if you have Reciprocity and/or Duck and Dive too so it feels like there's way more encouragement for dodging vs taking cover

[muted prairie]

i'll be honest, forgot it even existed til now

[terse idol]

I did it one time

[tawdry jackal]

I’ve done it occasionally

[tall torrent]

@muted prairie I’m still waiting for specific examples

[somber axle]

The Psykanium having a new tutorial system for players for class specific things would be neat

[tawdry jackal]

Usually to pop dudes with a bolter or to stabilize an auto gun

But fixed defensive position only, very rare in matches

[muted prairie]

jesus man, i'm not as weirdly invested in spreadsheets as you. just watch some guy's gameplay with hp bars turned on

[faint beacon]

Yeah I don’t think many Ogryn players know about their increased TDR

[muted prairie]

count how many enemies get left with less than 5% hp

[tawdry jackal]

usually running around or popping to the side of cover was my thing. Or popping up from cover to kill outright

[muted prairie]

that's your answer

[somber axle]

Would be neat if you could proc Reciprocity from shrinking behind cover right as they fire at you

[tall torrent]

You’re wrong then, simple

[misty delta]

just take your loadouts to the meat grinder. Maybe get the mod that lets you spawn stuff / turn on enemy ai in the grinder. I like to take useless perks like stamina/reload speed when going into testing to see if I hit any breakpoints without flak/maniac

[tall torrent]

I’ve watched health bar mod gameplay

You wanna know what actually gets left with 5% health the most?

[viral nacelle]

I had a vet in a game today start ping spamming me when I crouched to use cover. Told me “this isn’t cod” 😂

[tawdry jackal]

lol

[uncut pebble]

Bruisers when they eat a Rashad headshot and don't die?

[muted prairie]

ngl, if i saw a vet actually crouch behind cover i'd be raising my eyebrows real hard

[viral nacelle]

There were gunners and reapers down a tunnel and I didn’t want to eat shit while shooting them 😂

[somber axle]

OH MAYBE SOME TALENTS ON THE MARKSMAN SIDE ABOVE MARKSMAN'S FOCUS

[gray nebula]

Was wondering, is suppression a stagger effect?

[somber axle]

Stuff that gives additional TDR or damage when using cover

[tall torrent]

Yea, that’s one major case, which you don’t activate with 8 stacks because u can’t ping bruisers

And 2. It’s a QoL thing and you’ll get there with headtaker stacks eventually (very easily stacked too’

[tawdry jackal]

He did you like this huh

[tall torrent]

Outside of that, it’s pretty much just

Enemies on fire

Usually Soulblaze

[somber axle]

Cover is for the weak absolutely and outside of Ogryns and Space Marines who are living walking walls themselves we should probably take cover too LOL

Bring back the buffed shooters

[tawdry jackal]

Lmfao ya

[somber axle]

The one week where everyone lamented being turned to Swiss cheese

[tall torrent]

Since DOT scales non-linearly

They get more benefit out of rending / faster stack-up than a 4.5% damage bonus

[muted prairie]

great, now consider that all those cases would have been kills with one talent point from the team's vet

[muted prairie]

and this one too. lotta times i woulda liked to kill things 1 headtaker stack early

[tall torrent]

No, they’d just happen more if they crit more (more Soulblaze stacks)

[hollow phoenix]

The only time I would see FT being valuable even then Surv being more useful, is if you have a team of Gluggers

[tall torrent]

It’s either voidblast (crit), inferno (crit) or EK (random body hit damage)

That 4.5% damage doesn’t come up in any of these 3 cases

If anything, a zealot taking team-wide crit chance helps them more

[hollow phoenix]

Is Inferno’s alt fire able to crit?

[hollow ibex]

Holy shit this is still going on?

[misty delta]

yeah and it applies 2 burn stacks instead of 1

[muted prairie]

i'm trying to let it go, but he's asking i spreadsheet literally every weapon and enemy in the game

[lusty sapphire]

Unless it's loner. Fuck loner

[misty delta]

which is why crit is the best stat on inferno

[hollow phoenix]

What about the Soulblaze, does that crit

[hollow ibex]

I’m with hammer here lol

[tall torrent]

And for this scenario, you can’t ping bruisers

You could ping something else, kill it, then kill the bruiser, but you could also take agile engagement pathing (which does the same but better damage) or PA once to stack up headtaker (multiple stacks) extremely easily

[misty delta]

nah, it has flat damage based on number of stacks and enemy type. if only xd

[hollow phoenix]

But the burn applied by Inferno is Soulblaze yes?

[misty delta]

it also benefits from the equipped weapon

[misty delta]

yes

[hollow phoenix]

Nice

[hollow ibex]

I just cba to figure out every scenario where such a small buff matters

[hollow phoenix]

Only thing I can think of is the bare minimum of high fire rate, low damage per bullet guns

a very niche category

Even then I’m sure that’s not true

[tall torrent]

It doesn’t matter for vast majority of scenarios and that remaining chance of it being needed, you’re better off with something else

Like, weapons that can use rending

[muted prairie]

there you go, here's one