veteran-class

[indigo mural]

knoife and snub

[grand perch]

revive aint bad but nade regen is M A N D A T O R Y

[pastel yew]

more veteran fork builds

[winter grove]

Gonna say this again

[pastel yew]

so many talent taxes right at the bottom of the tree

[winter grove]

Taxes are more engaging than knives

[pastel yew]

I'd agree with that but

combat axe is more engaging again

I'm not a massive fan of spammy melee weapons

[winter grove]

You must agree or IRS chops your knees off

[indigo mural]

all I do is heavy attack and run

[pastel yew]

[indigo mural]

I am speed

[pastel yew]

my bonees

[tall torrent]

FYI Knife wants FT for breakpoints (benefits less from WS)

[indigo mural]

it's either Demolition ranch or Low Profile at this point

[tall torrent]

Drop Overwatch, get low profile + demo team, ez

[indigo mural]

but mommmmmmmmmm

[pastel yew]

take what is most fun

[tall torrent]

2 charge stealth is mid

[indigo mural]

Okay hear me out, drop Demo team because nades are for losers

[pastel yew]

you've already said you dont use your smokes

[winter grove]

More of a Hunter's Resolve fan

[pastel yew]

so you dont need more of them

[indigo mural]

runs away

[pastel yew]

based

[tall torrent]

Sounds like u just don’t know how smokes work then

[indigo mural]

I'm doing solo aurics who cares

(that's a lie btw)

[crude fiber]

Your Randoms probably

[winter grove]

The bots that are source of your toughness

[indigo mural]

but mentally I am

[pastel yew]

https://tenor.com/view/helloleesh-gaslight-gatekeep-girlboss-gif-22319144

[indigo mural]

Hahahahaha

[pastel yew]

never admit wrong doing

[winter grove]

Solo aurics aren't bad

[indigo mural]

I just haven't had the need to keep throwing smoke grenades

[winter grove]

Solo auric maelstroms tho

[indigo mural]

only when under heavy fire I sometimes throw them

[pastel yew]

grenades are just objectives and revives

[indigo mural]

yes

[tall torrent]

Then yea u just don’t know how they work

[pastel yew]

and objectives are only ever an issue when your team is dog

[indigo mural]

objectives = overwatch

[pastel yew]

so.. 50% of the time

[rigid pilot]

Smokes work alot better if you throw them before the heavy fire

Not during

[pastel yew]

also yeah overwatch is great for objectives

so is the - threat

chilling playing games on your phone

[last parcel]

overwatch is great for sfm animations

[winter grove]

Honestly

[pastel yew]

also I need to start recording data on the scanner

[indigo mural]

talent tree is pain

[pastel yew]

I swear its massively weighted to have the points on the very end

[winter grove]

I wanna hear an argument of Low Profile vs Hunter's Resolve

[indigo mural]

if I just had one more point

[pastel yew]

why take less damage

when you can take

no damage

also for objectives

[tall torrent]

Hunter’s resolve has some pretty insane toughness breakpoints and it’s simpler in last-man/solo situations

[indigo mural]

D-do I really need this...

[tall torrent]

On knife yea

Too bad u picked 2 weapons that want separate keystones

[pastel yew]

my favourite veteran tax

[tall torrent]

Knife doesn’t need atk speed

So the 4 points down into weapon specialist is minimal value

[indigo mural]

is for the pew pew no?

pew pew pew

[tall torrent]

What

[indigo mural]

snub revolva

does pew

[winter grove]

Wait so

[tall torrent]

Yea u took a keystone that mainly benefits 1 weapon

[pastel yew]

"what if we made the tree with the most nodes.. and the least flexibility... and had a lot of useless junk in it... and then we also put all the talent taxes right at the bottom all in different trees? "

[winter grove]

Me picking taxes as a meme

[indigo mural]

indeed

[pastel yew]

vet tree is rough

[winter grove]

Was a good choice because both taxe and revolver want WS?

[pastel yew]

I do think the tactical axes are like

good

[tall torrent]

Idk, I don’t play tac axe

[indigo mural]

I don't see the problem though my knife is doing good

[pastel yew]

they just dont got the oomph

[indigo mural]

it slaps ass

[tall torrent]

Knife specifically though, +atk speed has minuscule benefit

You’re getting like

+2.3% dps from the +10% atk speed node

[pastel yew]

I mean like I've said though, the power potential of builds in this game far far exceeds the difficulty

you can afford to not be 100% efficient to take fun stuff

or weapons you enjoy

[tall torrent]

Which is just not worth it

[indigo mural]

Aha

[tall torrent]

Knife’s problem is that

The combo chain time is so short

[indigo mural]

that it's amazing

[tall torrent]

+atk speed basically doesn’t matter

[indigo mural]

Well yes that's fair

[tall torrent]

So the 4 points down into WS is mostly waste for knife

[indigo mural]

the dodge speed and distance is cool

[tall torrent]

It’s not needed because knife alrdy has absurd dodge profile

[indigo mural]

so you're saying I can bin this

[tall torrent]

No

Because Zarona wants it

[thorn lark]

knife likes desperado and reciprocity, right?

[tall torrent]

Again, you picked 2 weapons that want different keystones

[tall torrent]

Yea after that it’s just not worth

[indigo mural]

That kinda makes sense

[pallid jetty]

i think its useless

[winter grove]

You should try it for a breath of fresh air

Mk4 specifically

[tall torrent]

Nah

I’d run Achlys combat axe before I run tac axes

[indigo mural]

So I can pretty much drop this, can agree with that

then I take focus target

[tall torrent]

If u forfeit revolver yes

If u want to keep revolver, no

[indigo mural]

nooooo leave my revolver aloneeeeeeeeeeeeeee

oh

[thorn lark]

it's like sprint efficiencym you should try it

[pastel yew]

the weapon specialist boosts the revolver

massively

more than focus target boosts the knife

[indigo mural]

ahh

my brain hurts

[tall torrent]

I tried tac axes for 5 games and it was just mid all the time

[indigo mural]

it was already so smooth

[thorn lark]

so yesterday i used revolver with ws

[tall torrent]

Yea guess ur dropping 2 charge stealth

[winter grove]

Say, what guns like the WS?

[thorn lark]

i still prefer mf with the zarona

[tall torrent]

[winter grove]

Laspistols?

[indigo mural]

Hahahahaha bully

[pastel yew]

vet chat taking an angle grinder and some polish to the wrinkles of your grey matter

[indigo mural]

It has helped me clutch in so many situations though

[thorn lark]

with it i just play like a zealot and dodge dance around elites

[tall torrent]

DB shotgun
Both Revolvers
Laspistol mk2
Vraks 3 HH
All combat shotguns

[pastel yew]

weapons that boost from crit or have long reloads and or small magazines

[indigo mural]

I'm just going to unbind my grenades and act like they don't exist so I can take Low Profile and Overwatch

pretty much done deal

[tall torrent]

In what

[winter grove]

I should try laspistol mk2 along the mk4 taxe

[tall torrent]

Last man standing?

[indigo mural]

to revive and to do objectives

yes

[pastel yew]

the mk2 laspistol is dope

[winter grove]

That thing can deal with carapce without huge problems

[pastel yew]

it's one of my favourite weapons in the game

[thorn lark]

and i find the taxe a bit more forgiving than the knife...

[lean bloom]

its choke mace good??

[winter grove]

Choke mace?

Kinky

[lean bloom]

the new one

[tall torrent]

I mean it’s up to u how u wanna play, I just wouldn’t leave out grenade regen ever

[thorn lark]

kant does not really benefit that much from the crit tho

[indigo mural]

Somebody already stole my heart so

I'm dropping that, for demo ranch

boom, solved

world peace achieved

[tall torrent]

It’s alr, I don’t like the combat shotguns much

[tall torrent]

U can’t

[pastel yew]

the shock maul?

zappy stick

[tall torrent]

Because that’s the 1 node that makes Zarona revolver broken

[pastel yew]

yeah its pretty good

[indigo mural]

https://tenor.com/bS0z2.gif

[indigo mural]

I am talking about this

[tall torrent]

Taking Zarona on WS without always prepared is like

Why would u

[indigo mural]

o

[tall torrent]

Yes this is the 1 node that makes Zarona the best gun in the game

Lmao

[last parcel]

it’s like sounding

[indigo mural]

I have never ran out of ammo honestly

[last parcel]

some people like it

[pastel yew]

plasma gun is still better

[tall torrent]

It’s so u never reload

[pastel yew]

just run marksmans focus

[tall torrent]

Nah

[indigo mural]

o

[pastel yew]

its definitely still better

[winter grove]

Lmao nah

[indigo mural]

I always reload, what the flip

[tall torrent]

Nah

[pastel yew]

what do you meaaaaaaaaaan with marksmans focus it's literally identical in terms of strength

[thorn lark]

i often have multiple elites to take care of, not one

[winter grove]

Plasma really suffers from having specific stats for breakpoints

[pastel yew]

you could even still run focus target with the damage up node

[tall torrent]

Bait used to be believable

[pastel yew]

and have the same effect

[indigo mural]

man this chat is great

[pastel yew]

bro I thought the same thing

go and try it in the psyk

all you need to do is weakspot hit

any enemy

[indigo mural]

I could also drop this

[pastel yew]

and you're already back to one shotting everything

[tall torrent]

Wouldn’t recommend

[pastel yew]

because the breakpoints are literally that tight

[sinful swallow]

Just don't get hit

[indigo mural]

Hahahaha I'm not good enough for that either way

[tall torrent]

Yea, bait used to be believable

[indigo mural]

indeed

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-2-bait-and-switch-raid-catgirl-yay-gif-5840456254151149098

[sinful swallow]

https://tenor.com/view/gitgud-thepruld-git-gud-dark-gif-8126281

[winter grove]

What plasma needs:

[pastel yew]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-the-you-cant-handle-the-truth-gif-12563764

[winter grove]

Either talent tree dedication or really specific stats

What revolver needs

[tall torrent]

Y’all got some crazy Reddit tier takes

[winter grove]

Surgical

[pastel yew]

it doesn't matter what needs what

all that matters is the upper limit of strength

[tall torrent]

Taking Zarona on WS without always prepared is just

I don’t even got words

[pastel yew]

and the upper limit of the plasma gun, is higher than that of the zarone

[winter grove]

Then yeah revolver still better

[pastel yew]

????

[indigo mural]

I will try it hahahaha, if I do see that it sucks ass

then fair enough

[tall torrent]

Then yea Zarona has higher ceiling

[winter grove]

Me when I oneshot crushers

[pastel yew]

zarona does not have a higher upper at all

the plasma gun is literally the zarona that is worse into crushers and better at everything else

[thorn lark]

that will help you to kill that one elite or special and be sure to have at least one bullet

[pastel yew]

except maybe boss dps

given it's literally the zarona without the reload issues

[thorn lark]

outside of that, if you're doing tactical reload, you should never have a problem

[pastel yew]

which are fixed by weapon specialist but involve needing to kill things, where the plasmagun doesn't

[tall torrent]

Zarona hits better breakpoints, never reload, doesn’t need headshot to 1 tap, has better boss dmg, has better ammo economy, has way faster draw-to-fire time

[pastel yew]

can you call it a never reload

if you need to swap to melee

and you get one shot bac

as opposed to pressing vent once and getting two shots

also you can fire 8 before running out rather than 5

[tall torrent]

That’s still slower than Zarona swap back

[pastel yew]

also it has more ammo?

[indigo mural]

ohh that's how it works

[pastel yew]

theres no way

[tall torrent]

It has worse ammo economy

[pastel yew]

it is one of the most ammo efficient guns in the game!

you'd have to be a primate to run out of ammo with the plasmagun

[thorn lark]

be nice to primate

[tall torrent]

Yea plasma is the worst vet ammo econ

[pastel yew]

monky gang

[winter grove]

How much max zarona and plasma has

Ammo I mean

[indigo mural]

since we're all here now, why do people take Health Curious over Toughness Curious? Isn't toughness pretty much always better?

[tall torrent]

Besides shredder autopistol ig

[pastel yew]

the zarona is like 60 shots I think

plasma I cant member

[winter grove]

@tall torrent

[pastel yew]

its whatever the max is divided by 3

also plasma gun no suppression

[pastel yew]

wait you genuinely mean

[tall torrent]

70 shots, gets back 10 per tin

Plasma has 101 (best case scenario), gets back 8 per tin

[lean bloom]

is this good?

[pastel yew]

worst vet ammo econ in the game?

[tall torrent]

Besides shredder autopistol and maybe combat shotguns yea

Do the maths

Plasma gets the least amount of ammo back from pickup & survivalist

[last parcel]

i only do meth

[pastel yew]

I got a screenshot around here somewhere one sec

[winter grove]

Nope

Low dmg

[tall torrent]

Scoreboard pic?

Or actual maths

[pastel yew]

this is pre survivalist nerf

using almost entirely the plasma gun

[winter grove]

Ofc it's scoreboard

[tall torrent]

As I thought

[thorn lark]

pre-survivalist

[pastel yew]

i've used it post survivalist while also picking up less ammo than all other players

every shot you fire

is killing 1 or more things

[tall torrent]

Yea that’s entirely possible

When did I ever say you can’t do that

[pastel yew]

all I'm saying is if you can use a weapon primarily, barely pick up any ammo

and still massively outperform your team

ammo econ does not matter at all then

[tall torrent]

That’s ur team being horrible

[pastel yew]

theres ammo literally everywhere

[tall torrent]

And that’s still u only refuting 1 point

When every other point still points to revolver

[pastel yew]

ammo crates are a full refund baby

I think I could reliably get through a whole auric game with a single ammo crate

even just one medium bag on top of that practically guarantees

[tall torrent]

The other points I mentioned above still points to revolver

Plasma is literally just a little below revolver, never said it’s not a broken gun

[pastel yew]

but the revolver relies on weapon specialist

[thorn lark]

you cannot compare zarona in the psykh with plasma during a mission

it doesn't work that way

[tall torrent]

Yea guess what plasma relies on FT

[winter grove]

Ok boys it's fun you discussing the two out the OP Trio members

[pastel yew]

or marksman, or other temp damage boosts

[tall torrent]

U can run plasma on MF but it’s like

Why would u

[winter grove]

Let's add CIAG

[pastel yew]

or just blaze away

[thorn lark]

during a mission, there's too many variable

you should just compared them in a controlled environment

[pastel yew]

because after your first kill, your breakpoints are perfect

[thorn lark]

so the psyk

[tall torrent]

Blaze away is still not as good as gloryhunter

[pastel yew]

yeah, though you don't need blaze away

just throwing it as an alternative to keystone reliance

[tall torrent]

Why would u settle for a 90% active breakpoint when you could get permanent uptime

[pastel yew]

its not 90% if theres always something to activate your breakpoints

there's always going to be at least one thing you can already one tap

also once you have stacks

you're going to have them the whole game for the most part

who's going 6 seconds without hitting a headshot with a plasmagun

[winter grove]

I have blaze away and gets hot on mine because they're good blessings and I didn't have a gloryhunter

[tall torrent]

Why would u settle for a 98% active breakpoint when u could have it always active while still giving ur melee weapon & whole team +dmg buff

It’s just extra hoops for no reason

[winter grove]

This is why Lasgun Mk12 is the OP gun

[pastel yew]

the dmg buff is only useful against bosses and for players who've not sorted their breakpoints

also again

plasmagun always active

revolver needs long reload or melee swap melee swap

plasma gun vent is two shots

[tall torrent]

Having an overall dmg buff is better than not having an overall dmg buff, and it’s 100% uptime without really any conditionals attached

[pastel yew]

its a token boost

when you could just use a stronger weapon

[tall torrent]

The main benefit is still the 100% uptime on breakpoints

[pastel yew]

outside of killing crushers, the zarona is just lacking

[tall torrent]

Why would u settle for less

[winter grove]

And then a reminder that have a not bottomless mag

[pastel yew]

the difference between 99% and 100% with a worse weapon?

[tall torrent]

Ok now this is just bait

[pastel yew]

they absolutely do

[winter grove]

And plasma reload is fucking painful without talents or skips

[tall torrent]

Yea no, not worth arguing lol

[pastel yew]

compared to the plasma gun?

[tall torrent]

Zarona being not as good outside of anti-crusher is just

Meme

[pastel yew]

not bad

just worse than the plasmagun

[tall torrent]

Just not true either

[pastel yew]

zarona very strong

what is it worse against?

[tall torrent]

Zarona has better breakpoints than plasma

[winter grove]

Aim at enemy

Shoot with Zarona

Enemy dies

Zarona is clearly worse

[tall torrent]

Zarona quite literally has better breakpoints than plasma against like every single enemy lol

[pastel yew]

how can it be better

than one shot?

zarona killing with 0 bullets

literal psyker gun

it must be stopped

[winter grove]

@tall torrent how much does zarona and plasma get per survivalist proc

[pastel yew]

I dont think its consistent

[tall torrent]

It’s the only 1 shot gun that doesn’t need headshot to 1 tap, on top of having an incredibly generous headshot box

So just looking at consistency sake Zarona wins

Zarona also 1 taps both ragers without conditional dmg buffs besides crit, plasma doesn’t get to it unless u take maniac which only matters for Dreg rager

[tall torrent]

It is

[pastel yew]

is it?

[tall torrent]

Zarona is 0.65/

[pastel yew]

I swear I've seen different numbers for both guns

[tall torrent]

Plasma is ~1.6/

[pastel yew]

+1 or +2 for the zarona

I've definitely seen it give 2 shots

or does it trigger for every enemy hit?

post nerf

assuming its the same round or whatever

[tall torrent]

Do u understand how survivalist works

[pastel yew]

kill enemy get bullet

that is the limit of my understand

[tall torrent]

No

Ok so u don’t even know how it works

[last parcel]

based

[tall torrent]

Survivalist keeps decimals

[winter grove]

Survivalist works like payday 2 ammo boxes so I understand exactly how personally

[tall torrent]

It rounds down based on integer, and keeps decimals

Take zarona’s case

0.65/kill

2 kills, 1.3 (get +1, keep 0.3)

3rd kill (0.3 + 0.65 = 0.95, decimal)

4th kill (0.95 + 0.65 = 1.6, get +1, keep 0.6)

Goes on and on

[pastel yew]

it always rounds down?

[tall torrent]

This was changed back in patch 13

[opaque crane]

hadron decided to be nice to me

[pastel yew]

so the plasma gun will give +2 then +3

[tall torrent]

My guy I literally write the veteran guide I basically know all the breakpoints for all the weapons besides the very new weapons

[pastel yew]

from the 1.65 or whatever it gets

[pastel yew]

and yet 1 is lower than 1 when the zarona does it

[winter grove]

What are the Shredder autopistol breakpoints then

[tall torrent]

U wanna look at plasma ok

Plasma has %ammo roll

Let’s say best case scenario, 80% ammo

That’s 169 reserve

[thorn lark]

there's no breakpoints, gun too bad

[tall torrent]

First kill, +1, keep +0.69

[tall torrent]

Second kill, +2, keep +0.38

This is when you get enough ammo back to fire another shot

[opaque crane]

after I throw power cycler on, I still have 1 change left, am I good to leave maniac + unyielding on psword 3?

[tall torrent]

Even in the very best case for plasma

%ammo gain/ammo use per shot is lower than that of Zarona

Plasma is 56.33% rate

Zarona is 65% rate

[pastel yew]

again though, if you can primarily use your ranged weapon

and never run out of ammo

[winter grove]

In the conclusion we should all agree that CIAG is better

[thorn lark]

i would go power cycler sunder and maniac + elites / carapace

[pastel yew]

does ammo econ matter?

especially in such minor differences

[tall torrent]

What kind of psychopath checks breakpoints on a 900rpm gun

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-evil-smirk-crop-gif-25562144

[winter grove]

Should I try doing it

[tall torrent]

Again, that’s still only refuting 1 point in the list I mentioned and everything else is irrefutable

[opaque crane]

Gotcha! thank you.

[pastel yew]

what like it having worse breakpoints

when it... one shots?

[tall torrent]

Plasma has worse breakpoints than Zarona

[winter grove]

Takes way more effort to achieve oneshots

[pastel yew]

it takes killing 1 thing, and not having bad aim

[tall torrent]

U can take ur plasma rn and go shoot at both ragers in the head

U need maniac on it to 1 tap Dreg rager but maniac only matters for that enemy which is just not a great deal

[thorn lark]

i linke unyielding but hmm, i feel like the mk6 is better suited to boss combat

[tall torrent]

U need elite to get Dreg gunner 1HS

Plasma’s whole build revolves around giving it 1 tap function

[opaque crane]

yeaa it's tough cause I'm used to maniac + unyield on mk6 so I don't really know what mk3 needs 😦

[tall torrent]

Zarona just wants a single +elite to get Dreg gunner and that’s it

[thorn lark]

check with the guide then

[tall torrent]

Crit headshot will kill everything below mauler/mutant/ogryn

And if u have +maniac

[thorn lark]

or ask @tall torrent

[tall torrent]

U can crit bodyshot everything below mauler/mutant/ogryn too

[thorn lark]

he knows all the bps

[tall torrent]

So it’s just extra consistency for no investment

[thorn lark]

[opaque crane]

@tall torrent can you tell me what to do with psword 3 plz

[tall torrent]

Carapace & flak/elite? I think

[thorn lark]

he can't

[tall torrent]

Ok then keep maniac

[pastel yew]

you dont need elite with marksmans focus

[junior needle]

[last parcel]

swap sunder for rampage and use it unpowered

[pastel yew]

even just 3 stacks is enough

I just tested it

[radiant chasm]

Oy templars

[winter grove]

MF is the keystone everyone wants to avoid

[pastel yew]

gonna test the rager one now

[thorn lark]

[opaque crane]

hmm but flak + carapace or elite is BIS?

I can try to roll another

[radiant chasm]

What is the best brauto currently? Still agri?

[winter grove]

Still agri

[pastel yew]

yeah because it was worse, but now if you need it to hit one shot break points its entirely valid

[radiant chasm]

Thanks templars

[pastel yew]

the game balance changed, gotta get with the times

even if almost always its a shit keystone

[junior needle]

columnus is the worst brauto objectively

[thorn lark]

you'll be wasting plasteel

[tall torrent]

Sure but why would u take MF over FT on plasma like srsly

[rigid pilot]

Agri Brauto has cleave

[thorn lark]

keep maniacs

[rigid pilot]

That's it mainly

But recon 7a also has cleave

So

[winter grove]

FT > MF

[last parcel]

it has the cooler initialism

[winter grove]

Not a competition

[opaque crane]

okie dokie I will!

[winter grove]

It's a fact

[pastel yew]

not if you want to hit one shot break points without relying on the damage buff

[winter grove]

You

Are relying on MF stacks

Which give you extra damage

[last parcel]

nah bro that's different

[pastel yew]

yeah but once they're u

[tall torrent]

FT literally enables 1 tap gunner/flamer for u at 100% consistency on top of buffing ur melee dmg

[pastel yew]

up, they're up

because they should never drop

because you should never not be hitting headshots

[winter grove]

Just ping with FT

Easier

Gives same results

[last parcel]

bro has ping bound to numpad 7

[junior needle]

Also redirect fire

[rigid pilot]

So you crab walk to the next room?

[tall torrent]

This is going through so many hoops to try to make plasma breakpoint sound as good as Zarona

I’m done

[pastel yew]

you dont need to crab walk to the next room

[opaque crane]

I appreciate your guys help 🙂

[pastel yew]

you just hit one thing in the head

[rigid pilot]

But there's nothing to hit

[opaque crane]

I'm so out of the loop with psword 3 so it's wondeful.

[winter grove]

Np, we're happy to help

[last parcel]

shoot off your teammates dick

[pastel yew]

so many hoops?? aka... hitting something in the head one time

[rigid pilot]

You telling me your MF uptime is 90%?

[pastel yew]

once its active it wont drop for the entire fight

[winter grove]

Resident crab

[rigid pilot]

Yea how about next room

[rigid pilot]

Or in-between room specials wave

Or boss lol

[tall torrent]

Again why would u settle for lower when u could get a 100% consistent breakpoint

If that’s not jumping through hoops to get smth idk what is

[pastel yew]

for higher up time on the ranged weapon

2 shots on vent rather than 1 per melee swap

[tall torrent]

MF doesn’t make plasma have “higher uptime”

[pastel yew]

also vent is faster and does not rely on having a shitter

[rigid pilot]

FT isn't WS?

[tall torrent]

You don’t suddenly gain less heat because u took MF

[rigid pilot]

Why melee swap

[pastel yew]

also with mf you have one shot breakpoints on literally every enemy that is not an ogryn

[pastel yew]

for the zarona

ft was suggested as the keystone to take for the plasma gun

[tall torrent]

Because it is better?

[pastel yew]

wdym gain less heat?

[rigid pilot]

I think y'all talking about different things

[pastel yew]

no you're just a lil confused

[tall torrent]

FT plasma has the same uptime as MF and it hits breakpoint 100% the time

Why would u take MF

[last parcel]

wires tangled up like my pubes fr

[tall torrent]

This is actually insane I can’t

[winter grove]

At least you guys aren't arguing whether Zarona or Plasma are better than CIAG

[pastel yew]

with +25% maniac

[rigid pilot]

I think he's talking about MF zarona

[tall torrent]

U do with ur MF plasma good job

[pastel yew]

and the damage boost just from the ping passive

[last parcel]

i think this is the third time you've said this

[winter grove]

That would be HILARIOUS

[pastel yew]

you dont have enough damage to one shot a rager

[tall torrent]

Because it is lmao

[pastel yew]

if you're relying on the damage from the ping

then you need stacks

which generate at 1 per 2 seconds

which means waiting.. aka not 100% uptime

[rigid pilot]

It's always 2 stacks btw

It's 100%

You uhh

[pastel yew]

even on min ping?

[rigid pilot]

Ever used FT

Yea

[tall torrent]

Yep

[radiant chasm]

Always starts at 2 stacks iirc

[tall torrent]

Guess u just don’t know how veteran’s talents work

[rigid pilot]

Me when I talk out of my ass

[tall torrent]

It’s fine

[pastel yew]

the indicator shows only one

if it gives you two stacks then fair play

but that's not the info the game gives you

[tall torrent]

Killing an enemy within 2s of tagging resets it to 2 stacks

[rigid pilot]

Debuff indicator

[pastel yew]

also you have to still spam ping which is annoying

[tall torrent]

This still doesn’t make it have better breakpoints than Zarona

Zarona is just 1 bodyshot everything

No headshot needed

[pastel yew]

skill issue at that point though

upper limit

you can kill more things if you hit head

and if you arent hitting head

that's not the guns fault

[tall torrent]

You can only headshot smth so hard so after that point it’s as much consistency as u can get

[pastel yew]

it's not about headshotting one thing harder

its about being able to headshot more things

more rapidly

if you go for body shots sure

[tall torrent]

When did I ever say go for bodyshots

[pastel yew]

but you will kill more with headshots with a plasma, than body shots with a zarona

even with it being a better body shot break point

also why wouldnt you go for headshots with the zarona... it literally makes their head huge

impossible to miss

[tall torrent]

U can argue for “just headshot everything”

Sure

[winter grove]

Oh reminds me of something

[tall torrent]

Download power DI and see what your %ranged weakspot hit rate looks like

[pastel yew]

sure I can do that next time I go to play out a run

does mean doing a run with the plasma though 🤮

[tall torrent]

If it’s below 99% it’s not good enough

[pastel yew]

that's an unreasonable not good enough limit, considering the plasma gun isn't killing that tiny % more fast

without vent it's already 8 shots

and then 2 on every vent

[tall torrent]

Well u said “just headshot”

[pastel yew]

compared to 5 and `1

so to be better than the zarona I'd not need 99% headshot rate

even >80% is better

[tall torrent]

To be better breakpoints than Zarona u need 100% headshot rate on a MF build

[pastel yew]

and thats something everyone can hit

how on earth can that be true

[winter grove]

I had this mk2 laspistol with FT node

And it went

Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound Focus Target marking sound

[pastel yew]

instant block

[frank ether]

barrel off the map

[pastel yew]

its not very often but there was a time when a big darktide youtuber suggested people set their ping

to left mouse button

when using the plasmagun

[tall torrent]

Because Zarona 1 taps everything below mauler/mutant/Ogryns without requiring headshots, whereas plasma requires headshots for them to be 1 taps

That’s the difference

[winter grove]

Not that bad of an advice

[pastel yew]

absolute clown what an awful suggestion, vets spam pinging thing was real bad for a bit

[pastel yew]

in terms of effectiveness? its not great

in terms of annoying your team? instant blocked

[winter grove]

For plasma it's

Kind of good cus of the fire delay

[pastel yew]

but we're talking about total time to kill

[winter grove]

For the melee

Horrendous

[tall torrent]

When did I ever talk about time to kill

[pastel yew]

so you'd only need to headshot at a rate where you kill faster than zarona does

[tall torrent]

I said breakpoints

[pastel yew]

thats what I'm talk... what

the breakpoints are one shot kill

for both

so all that matters IS ttk??

[tall torrent]

What

[winter grove]

Plasma needs 78%+ dmg & SP, precision strikes & superiority, both 5% dmg nodes and redirect fire to meet optimal breakpoints

[tall torrent]

You’re genuinely confused

[winter grove]

See? I am smart

[tall torrent]

You can only 1 shot an enemy so hard, so after that 1 shot breakpoint, what really matters is the level of consistency at which you can 1 shot

This is where Zarona beats out plasma

[pastel yew]

yes exactly, so you only need to hit headshots consistently enough

to be faster than the zarona

[tall torrent]

Yea, that’s where the 100% headshot requirement is in

[pastel yew]

the zarona has 5 shots, loading one per partial reload or melee kill

and the plasmagun has 8 base

and 2 per partial reload

[tall torrent]

Zarona has faster firerate as well

So even if u look at TTK on multiple targets where u 1 tap, you’re killing things faster

[pastel yew]

you're not being limited by the fire rate though I'll check that

[tall torrent]

Zarona firerate 120rpm, plasma left click is somewhere around 75rpm

[winter grove]

If you weren't you'd either fire like CIAG, Shredder or at least mg4

[pastel yew]

if you're able to hit targets literally on cooldown its that much of a diference

[winter grove]

RPM is what limits firerate

[pastel yew]

but if theres even a slight pause between that cuts into the difference

[tall torrent]

You wanted to argue numbers, I’m showing u the numbers

[pastel yew]

mhm

what is the zaronas actual fire rate though

[tall torrent]

And the numbers just tell u that Zarona is better in this regard

[pastel yew]

not its shot to shot cooldown

how many rounds can it put out in a minute

with reloading and melee reloads

as opposed to the plasma gun with its vent

[tall torrent]

U can go figure it out

[pastel yew]

and higher start ammo and more per vent

because that is the only number that actually matters

[tall torrent]

I think I’ve demonstrated enough that Zarona is just a little better than plasma

Not that much better, just a little bit

But it is difference enough

[pastel yew]

the only edge I feel it has

[tall torrent]

Both are broken and need nerfs anyways

[pastel yew]

is its move speed, and it's kills on crushers

zarona would be fine without the free reload

honestly the plasma gun needs more heat generation

you shouldnt be able to get 8 fucking shots

up its damage so it's break points are less fucky

and then make it so it can get 4-5 before needing to vent

then it'd be fine as is

[tall torrent]

Nah

[winter grove]

Just use CIAG

It's clearly better

[tall torrent]

Plasma breakpoints are fine as is

Rewards headshots

[pastel yew]

they can be bypassed is the main issue

[tall torrent]

Besides crafting update will allow people to fix their guns anyways

[pastel yew]

I'm fine with every enemy outside of the ogryns, maulers, and ragers being 1 shot head shot

I dont think 1 shot is fair on the ragers at all really

[tall torrent]

It’s only the 78~80% dmg & SP requirement and +elite dmg requirement that fucks plasma over

[pastel yew]

2 shot body shit is fine

[somber axle]

I just got back, caught up, enjoyed popcorn and the only sad part is seeing the hate on pinging targets

it's really not that big of a deal LOL

[pastel yew]

no hate on pinging targets

just people that spam ping

its annoying

[somber axle]

just don't put ping on left click

[pastel yew]

I Got autism I literally can't drown it out man ;-;

[tall torrent]

Are u rly a lore-accurate veteran if you don’t ping 300 enemies in a HiSTG

[pastel yew]

instant block

I lie I've blocked like

one guy I think

[last parcel]

you will learn the profesional callouts and you will like it

[pastel yew]

I dont even remember why... it might have been pinging

[somber axle]

I'm RPing a spotter and my primary methods of showing you the problems are Exe Stance + Squad Highlight and Focus Target spam

ENEMY HERE

KILL IT

[last parcel]

praxis 9 alpha lookin ass

[pastel yew]

ping is just useless most of the time

you got ears

[somber axle]

SOMETHING SOMETHING SNIPER???

[pastel yew]

you can hear where everything is

except crushers

[somber axle]

ok but what if I wanna play music really loud

how am I going to play dragon music to this

[winter grove]

NEVER

[tall torrent]

Both cutthroat & professional use callouts

But ping actually doesn’t make ur character callout using imperial guard code

[pastel yew]

maybe I should just mod the ping notif out of the game

[tall torrent]

The code callout voiceline is only when ur character sees an enemy but doesn’t tag

[ocean shell]

sigma minoris 33

[pastel yew]

uhh.. bomber?

.. t-trapper?!

[ocean shell]

hound

[winter grove]

Sigma something something

[pastel yew]

I didnt revise for the test

[tall torrent]

Through tagging an ungodly amount of enemies I made my cutthroat veteran shut up about Cadia for like 15 games straight

[somber axle]

I like when Vet sees a Mutie and goes "what the FUCK"

[tall torrent]

He literally never talks about Cadia

[pastel yew]

okay... maybe spam tagging is not that bad then

[somber axle]

no code

[ocean shell]

^

[tall torrent]

The only times he mention Cadia is VoC voiceline

[pastel yew]

thank you mommy... I mean mommy... I mean mo... m-=... mu hadron

[winter grove]

Traxis 1

What is it

[tall torrent]

And the cheer button

[ocean shell]

anyway yeah what’s up in veteran chat i’ve heard my calling

[pastel yew]

trapper!

[somber axle]

The sad part about tagging often is making your character do less of the fun voice lines
The glad part about tagging often is making the Cadian whine less

[tall torrent]

Too bad ur getting shot

[winter grove]

Wrong

[ocean shell]

praxis-9-alpha?

[pastel yew]

if I keep guess trapper eventually I'll be right

its like riddles.. if you don't know the answer just guess time or the wind

[last parcel]

traxis

12

[winter grove]

Traxis 66

[last parcel]

YEAH

TRAXIS 12

[ocean shell]

that’s a traxis-77

[pastel yew]

fuck..

[winter grove]

(He's still wrong)

[ocean shell]

lmao

[somber axle]

The Vets get WAY too into Infiltrate

"looking for a juicy throat to slit"

[winter grove]

"Yeah. I am gonna enjoy this"

[ocean shell]

“on the prowl”

[somber axle]

meanwhile the Loose Cannon becomes a giggling mess when they use infiltrate and go "kasrkin surprise coming right up"

[ocean shell]

atleast the cadians get way too into it

[somber axle]

all the Vets have a LOT of fun with Infiltrate

[last parcel]

creeper 3 12 engaged

https://tenor.com/view/blink-dishonored-gif-10459872

[ocean shell]

alright, what’s a omega-minoris-77?

[torn gorge]

loose cannon infil lines are the worst

[winter grove]

Was it

[torn gorge]

but she has easily the best VoC ones so that sort of balance things out

[winter grove]

Daemonhost

[tall torrent]

BoN

[pastel yew]

without bring it down... my power sword leaves a crusher on 4 health... with shove attack + light -_-

[ocean shell]

ding ding ding

[winter grove]

Ok hear me out

What is the Mutie's code

[somber axle]

this is the only time Reddit has ever been useful

[tall torrent]

The only somewhat correct callout LC makes is Tox flamer

[winter grove]

FUCK YOU

[tall torrent]

Deltacron something something

Which helps because Tox flamer is the only enemy called deltacron

[last parcel]

sigma male 33

[somber axle]

if they stopped having the worst possible takes on game balance 24/7, learned to make good memes and stopped posting the most basic outfits just to call them drip then maybe they might have something worth looking at

[tall torrent]

Professional and cutthroat have slightly different callouts for Poxburster

Professional says “gamma three fifteen”

Cutthroat says “gamma three one five”

[winter grove]

Ok but funnily enough

[ocean shell]

oi calm it down

[winter grove]

Loose Cannon gets excited because he thought he got shotgunner code right

[ocean shell]

no reason to shout

[winter grove]

Traxis 12

[somber axle]

that's actually kinda cool

same code, different ways of calling them out

[winter grove]

But even then he's fucking wrong 😭

[pastel yew]

you cant blame them for having bad balance takes

remember that the average player

isn't in auric

and the average auric player

is dog

so like...

[somber axle]

the average player doesn't know what the word breakpoint means and doesn't test for that at all

it's just gamer brain

damage 80% or the weapon is trash

[winter grove]

@last parcel excuse you

[pastel yew]

I saw that

[somber axle]

wait what

[pastel yew]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-thousand-yard-stare-thousand-yard-stare-cat-ptsd-cat-soldier-cat-war-gif-9110270742088459827

[ocean shell]

mate you don’t wanna know

[somber axle]

I didn't see but maybe I'm better off for having not seen LOL

[ocean shell]

correct statement

[pastel yew]

also you can make crusher one shots with the zarona without exe stance

[somber axle]

anyway like I remember someone showing me a screenshot of a player on reddit arguing that Recons are THE best weapon in the game and nothing else comes close

they played Malice

[pastel yew]

I stand corrected

[somber axle]

this was PRE-SECRETS OF THE MACHINE GOD

[pastel yew]

a single crit with max stacks of marksmans focus is enough to one shot a crusher too

[somber axle]

THIS WAS BEFORE RECON BUFFS

[torn gorge]

I mean

[somber axle]

https://tenor.com/view/pomni-losing-my-mind-losing-my-marbles-smg4-glitch-productions-gif-7170847602410935396

[tall torrent]

Reddit just isn’t worth paying attention to

[torn gorge]

even post buff you see people praising recons as if they are top weapons now

[tall torrent]

@pastel yew I can send u my vet guide if u want

[pastel yew]

sure

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-pipe-bomb-bomb-mail-box-cat-gif-18431261

[somber axle]

I still used Recons pre-Secrets of the Machine God but I also fully acknowledged that it only really became an ok weapon if you played a hyperspecific playstyle and that playstyle was also a lot of extra effort to do less damage than the meta weapons

idk how someone could play Recons, play the other guns, and still come to the conclusion that Recons are better

[torn gorge]

playing without either scoreboard mod or the database one

[tall torrent]

I sent it in dm

[torn gorge]

or flat out not reading numbers

[somber axle]

anything goes in Malice and Heresy so it's genuinely whatever

nothing matters there

bring out the lacerate knives

but wow those difficulties do not dictate weapon tiers

[torn gorge]

The heaven

[ocean shell]

i’m a kantrael user

i love the classic lasgun

[somber axle]

I will die on the hill that all three of the Infantry Lasguns are good

Even the XII

I love running them

[gilded wraith]

Does the sunder buff narrow the gap between mk 3 and mk 6 power swords?

[jaunty sphinx]

which recon to aim for?

[ocean shell]

that’s all i run

classic lasgun, the good ol reliable

[somber axle]

The XII was the meta king in the earliest days

It hasn't really fallen

Other things just rose up higher beyond it

It's still solid

Other things have just been buffed into being better

That doesn't mean it's bad, just less DPS compared to the faster fire rate Infantry Lasguns

but you can hit breakpoints easier on it with less investment vs the other two

[ocean shell]

i like the xii due to its high single target damage, i just like popping heads with that thing

[somber axle]

It's very satisfying

I like the Mg1a most just because the default skin looks as basic as a lasgun can get

dressing up in fancy cosmetics is nice but sometimes I just want to look like a basic bitch imperial guard trooper

[ocean shell]

just anotha’ day in the imperial guard

[junior needle]

The proof is a video of a guy with exe stance bodyshotting shotgunners to death fairly slowly

[last parcel]

that's so based

[winter grove]

Mg12 is cool

But

Others are just better

[ocean shell]

accatrans are good for psykers

[somber axle]

started from the bottom now we slightly above the bottom

[winter grove]

Recons are good for psykers
And other anecdotes you can tell yourself

[mellow adder]

Wanna mess around with a gunslinger but was wondering how can I salvage this?

[somber axle]

They're mid tier now after buffs

Not top tier but also not bottom tier

but the way the average reddit player uses them they're at this tier:

[ocean shell]

the only real choice now is the Vld recon

[winter grove]

Nah

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-voices-meme-cat-gif-23917781

[winter grove]

VIIa

[somber axle]

Recon Mk VId + Weapon Specialist + Celerity Stim

[ocean shell]

is that the medium one?

[somber axle]

SPRAY AND PRAY

[jaunty sphinx]

I prob wont invest in one then since ive already got my columnus

[ocean shell]

oh jesus christ

[somber axle]

BECOME SPEED

where's my ammo

[winter grove]

That's brown slow one

[ocean shell]

oh that’s the one i have

[last parcel]

funny you say that right after i took a fat shit

[ocean shell]

we didn’t need to know

[junior needle]

Recons are below par for psykers, without shocktrooper it does not compete with ciag or laspee with scriers.

Oh wait fuck I should read the whole comment

[winter grove]

I did not want to know that

[somber axle]

yeah but Psykers can do something Veterans can't: Dum Dum + Infernus LOL

like it's not as good as other ranged weapon options for Gunker

but it's still pretty good

[mortal horizon]

damn, rashad + double barrel slap

[junior needle]

More that scriers is an insane amount of juice and it can make most things look good

[somber axle]

True Aim is the thing that allows Infernus + Dum Dum to be a good combo tbh

20% more crit is nice but isn't that much of a game changer for Infernus

True Aim is the guarantee you can keep the fire burning

[junior needle]

What does that do

[somber axle]

every 5 weakspot hits is a 100% crit chance shot

[winter grove]

Yeah, once you read it fully you should get it

[somber axle]

now pair that with Recon Mk VId

BRRRRT into face and it's on fire at max stacks

[junior needle]

So basically just HH

[somber axle]

pretty much yeah

built in talent headhunter

so you can skip the blessing and go all in on Dum Dum + Infernus

[last parcel]

headhunter x4

x3 nuzzles pounces on you

[junior needle]

Reading is too hard. Jumping to conclusions is easy though.

[somber axle]

skimming text is just the nature of things

especially when clowns talk a lot

[junior needle]

I mean, you'd already be able to keep the fire up anyway

[last parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/raiden-metal-gear-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-blade-rules-of-nature-gif-17361138170178789066

[somber axle]

gotta skim to keep up

[somber axle]

with what?

7.5% base crit on Psyker, 20% on Scriers

[winter grove]

I know a person who's olympic champion of doing that so I believe you

[somber axle]

is there any other crit

[last parcel]

prescience chads

[ocean shell]

honestly i just say vld plus volley fire plus celerity stimm equals fun

not necessarily about good, if it’s fun use it

[junior needle]

Any target that you need to "maintain" stacks on won't be dying before you hit your next crit string

[somber axle]

A vet with Deadshot and no Headhunter, no 5% talent node crit and no 5% weapon perk crit, literally just base crit chance + Deadshot has better crit chance than Gaze + Psyker base crit

27.5% isn't going to proc very often

[junior needle]

Deadshot is a meme on recons

[somber axle]

and that's with Gaze

outside of Gaze you're looking at 7.5%

no fire without true aim

[junior needle]

The vast majority of people won't take that

also psyker has some crit nodes in the tree

iirc

[somber axle]

Deadshot is fine on the VII and II tbh

they're slow enough that it isn't that big of a deal to maintain stam with target down

don't do the VId with Deadshot though

[ocean shell]

psyker has the highest crit chance base

[somber axle]

the fire rate is even so silly that I've given up on my clown dance with it

[torpid grotto]

Doesnt the record shoot 5 times a second

Recon

[somber axle]

yes and you'd be surprised how little that happens on 7.5% crit chance

in Scriers it'll have a little bit better uptime but nothing crazy

it really is True Aim that carries Dum Dum + Infernus

Scriers crit is just a nice bonus

True Aim is just a better Headhunter

[junior needle]

Yeah there's the 5% crit aura above scriers, and a 5% crit node right below it

[somber axle]

I forgor the crit aura whoops

[tall torrent]

infernus + dum dum is funny

[somber axle]

so that means... 7.5% + 5% + 5% = 17.5% crit chance outside of Scriers, 37.5% crit chance in Gaze

[gilded rock]

Chat I refuse to believe machine spirits don't exist

[somber axle]

ok but True Aim is still going to carry the crits

[gilded rock]

Rolled about 10 bricks in a row, spat on my hands and rubbed em together then pressed consecrate and it gave me what I want

[somber axle]

more consistent vs 37.5%

even if you also get 5% crit chance on your weapon to push it to 42.5%

[junior needle]

More than vet without deadshot

[somber axle]

just use deadshot

[gilded rock]

https://tenor.com/view/slippy-i-saw-what-you-deleted-slippydesnake-skyler-gif-10721741480770112366

[somber axle]

I have two talent builds for Recon Mk II and Recon Mk VIIa and I alternate based on my mood

Deadshot + Focus Target + Target Down for hyper optimal ammo efficiency and higher crit for funny juggling
Marksman's Focus and no Deadshot for more rending and funny headshot juggling

in either case a clown juggles

wait not cleave

RENDING

I am tired

[junior needle]

Keep in mind I'm not saying true aim isn't good, just that it doesn't make infernus super good suddenly

[crimson pebble]

Which would be the better recon to run w antax axe

[last parcel]

hi tired

[somber axle]

Dum Dum boosts infernus tick damage and the ticks also give Dum Dum stacks iirc so they feed each other

[junior needle]

Your choice of melee doesn't matter

It's not hard to get your dumdum stacks

[somber axle]

Psyker goes insane spraying into boss face

[junior needle]

That's a very uh, minor bonus

[somber axle]

it's more damage than Dum Dum + Headhunter

and not an insignificant difference either

[crimson pebble]

Does gaze or exe stance do more dmg w recon

[somber axle]

but also just a very fun visual difference too

make it burn

[junior needle]

If you're playing psyker and have true aim I'm not surprised

[somber axle]

[somber axle]

I mean yeah Elysian Psyker Recon memes

though sometimes I go Surge staff

[somber axle]

Exe Stance imo

Vet can pump out more ranged damage from the tree vs Psyker

Psyker gets to combo Dum Dum + Infernus and make it not suck because the talent tree lets it get a better Headhunter for free

but Vet gets so much more than pushes it above and beyond Psyker even despite that

Vet does guns better than any other class

Recons included

Scriers has nice uptime but Exe Stance can last way longer if you can keep elite/special kills rolling (or alternate into non-elite shooters if you get the all ranged highlight node)

[gilded rock]

sneeky what blessings and perks for VId

[somber axle]

and the damage buff is just way better on Exe Stance if you can maintain crosshairs on heads

[gilded rock]

Rolling for weapon specialist like you told me ab the other day

[last parcel]

punishing salvo + sustained fire

[gilded rock]

sustained fire
doesn't reward you for sustaining fire
???

[somber axle]

Headhunter + Dum Dum
if you get Infernus you can keep it and change the other blessing to Headhunter because Infernus isn't that bad

Headhunter is just very valuable for Shock Trooper

[gilded rock]

Any specific talents I need to make it work? Including melting crushers n such

I would like to run VoC with it

[somber axle]

Sustained Fire's tooltip is LIES
It actually boosts damage on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots then resets and continues boosting every 2nd, 3rd, 4th shot repeatedly

[mortal horizon]

should i upgrade BM to 4, or trade the 10% elite dmg?

[gilded rock]

guh buh whuh

No actually I'm not surprised

[somber axle]

it's not nearly as bad as it seems LOL

[gilded rock]

Shatfart

[junior needle]

First I've heard of this

[somber axle]

it's just that Fatshark doesn't write things correctly

[gilded rock]

Like ever

[somber axle]

Yeah a while back Azrael explained this to me while I was doing clown science

I tested and still found Sustained Fire and Punishing Salvo to be less damage

they're better than they seem

but not better than Headhunter + Dum Dum

[eternal ember]

I'd say trade the 10% elite dmg

[tall torrent]

keep 10% elite

swap flak to 25% maniac

elite is what u want on power sword

[mortal horizon]

oh spicy

[gilded rock]

What perks for VId, carapace and something else?

[mortal horizon]

ya i feel like flak is meh on it tbh too. maniac or carapace better

[mellow adder]

Usable?

[junior needle]

I checked it just now and it's not doing this.

[junior needle]

Not terribly good

[junior needle]

flak + maniac or 5% crit

[last parcel]

carapace if you want to make sneaky gifs

[mellow adder]

Sustained fire on a revolver means each shot gets 20% more damage?

[junior needle]

2/4 and without crit printing you lose a lot of value from hand cannon

[junior needle]

No.