veteran-class

[somber axle]

I like that and the cleave idea you suggested but I'd only do one or the other for a change if I were a dev

[tall torrent]

No, both

[bitter turtle]

I guarantee you most of them just grab whatever build their favorite youtuber preached as OP and ran with it

[next spade]

if the design is right there can not be a most powerful weapon as easily

[tall torrent]

Why is the most powerful single shot infantry lasgun unable to cleave through enemies but the recon7a can

[somber axle]

Doing both at the same time might push it too far ahead of the other Infantry Lasguns and then we're back to Launch days where no one wants to run the IV or the Mg1a because the XII is just objectively better

[bitter turtle]

Ur the one who said it's not a balance issue

It's funny

[tiny summit]

Well what is "right design"?

[somber axle]

This is a very good point though

[bitter turtle]

Cause you say flamer would be still used even if it got nerfed

Except the exact opposite happened

People dropped it like a piece of shit even though it was actually ok

Just because it wasn't op anymore

Back in the early days

[tiny summit]

People do like small nuances in a similar role

[bitter turtle]

Even now you still have some ppl who think flamer is unusable lol

Just because it wasn't blatantly overtuned like it was on release

Same with power sword

Nobody used it on patch 12 or 13 I forget

Everyone was memeing on it for being shitty

[tall torrent]

Biggest flamer hater when a zealot cooks up a 17 mauler killfeed

[bitter turtle]

Suddenly talents and block cancel tech appear

[somber axle]

I'm not even sure how I'd change the Recons without breaking them tbh. I love them all to death and back as a clown's choice award weapon for my incredibly specific playstyle but I recognize that playstyle isn't something the general playerbase can enjoy at all at really any skill level unless you have a specific mindset like me

[bitter turtle]

Now everyone and their mom uses it because it's strong

[somber axle]

They should get another deeper look for some major changes to make them more broadly acceptable as weapons for everyone

[bitter turtle]

The majority of players don't give a fuck besides what is the strongest thing for the lowest path of resistance

Otherwise flamer wouldn't have gotten memed on and dropped by the majority of players for a completely deserved nerf back then

[tall torrent]

Buff headhunter blessing (recon version), buff finesse dmg
Done

[bitter turtle]

U used to see a flamer in literally every match

[sinful jacinth]

Every game.

[next spade]

the design issue creates the balance issue

I give you an different example:
League of Legends has a very different hero design than DOTA
In League you have sort of categories of classes. There are 20 physical carries.
In Dota you have heroes which do 1 specific thing.
If in league one carry is just 3% winrate better, suddenly 19 carries become bad picks.
In dota, your hero can have garbage winrate, if you pick the super slippery hero and the enemy team has no catch, this might be the best choice.

Same as COD design vs UT design.
COD has 10 SMGs.
They are just distinct by stats. This means there is always one overall best SMG.
In UT or Halo, A Battle rifle will never compete against the SMG, or sniper rifle. You can buff the sniper heavily, it wont make a big difference.
A revolver will never compete against the flamer in what it does and the balance can be much worse but the game will still work perfectly fine.

The variant design is extremely fragile and weak as it instantly breaks at the slightest balance variation.

[tall torrent]

Buff headhunter to +4/6/8/10% crit chance per stack instead of +2/3/4/5% crit chance per stack, stack 5 times

Buff finesse dmg a bit (especially crit weakspot dmg)

[somber axle]

Maybe but I think they're tip-toeing around the 21 day period the gun was too strong and trying to avoid breaking it back into that direction accidentally. Though I would love both of these changes personally to let me begin to compete on boss damage with some of the other finesse weapons

[tall torrent]

Keep recon extremely crit heavy so they get to use shock trooper more to mitigate ammo economy

[somber axle]

Ok this is a change I am wholeheartedly in favour of

[bitter turtle]

I don't care to draw an imperfect comparison to another game

[somber axle]

The lasguns all have a big niche in that shock trooper lets them be incredibly ammo efficienct compared to other weapons

[bitter turtle]

Again, your very example in this game was off point

Ppl would not stick to a unique weapon like flamer if it gets a 20 percent nerf

[somber axle]

Doubling down on that would help them preserve that sort of identity if that is the sort of identity Fatshark would want for the Lasguns as a way to stand out vs other guns

[next spade]

If flamer is nerfed 20%, nothing can still do what flamer can do

[tall torrent]

No they just swap to Kantrael shotgun instantly

[bitter turtle]

Lol

Ya

[tall torrent]

Or they go play braced autogun

[bitter turtle]

That's what happened

Kant was the new flamer ppl said

Aoe crowd control gun

And anyway

[somber axle]

Add Infernus to the Braced Autogun roster and put it on the Agripina Braced Autogun with a silly crit stacking build

[next spade]

then that again proves the point, the shotgun being too close in the role of the flamer

[somber axle]

Let me make more clown builds

[next spade]

causing the balance issue

[tall torrent]

They aren’t though

[next spade]

if it can replace the flamer then yes, if no, then it cant, either way the point is proven

[bitter turtle]

Half the guns you mention do have their niche

[tall torrent]

Shotgun is nowhere near the same level of crowd control, in favour of having more range to deal with specialists & gunners

Also has way worse firing uptime

It does not replace the flamer

[bitter turtle]

No but those don't count because it's not different enough!

Is the gist of your argument

[sinful jacinth]

Jezz the amount of hot takes.. xD

[tall torrent]

It’s a more versatile option that people are taking because the pure crowd specialization pick is nerfed

[somber axle]

After playing Zealot near constantly the past few days for penances I don't think there's a single gun in the game anywhere close to the Flamer other than the Psyker's Purgatus staff and even that isn't quite the same just due to the different class tools available to Zealot and Psyker

[tall torrent]

My takes are always hot
I believe suppression immunity should be veteran baseline trait

[ebon umbra]

plasma horde clear just line up the collaterals

[bitter turtle]

There are very few weapons ive tried on vet at least that don't induce some kind of gameplay adaptation on my part is my opinion on this

[somber axle]

My takes are funny. Wanna see my tier list?!

[somber axle]

I sorta agree but then would you also make melee damage stun immunity a Zealot baseline trait too?

[bitter turtle]

I'm all for carving out niches for weapons but they have done the opposite if anything last patch by killing melee helbore 😔

[next spade]

shotguns are also in a very strange state I think, most of them want a lot of accuracy, they have large magazines and mediocre damage
should be low magazine, high burst and more hipfire, but right now its sort of half a revolver almost

[delicate moat]

that was so fun while it lasted

[tall torrent]

No because melee stun is by design to punish you for bad melee fundamentals
Having to spend a point for suppression immunity actually just screws over veteran’s point economy for most weapons

[delicate moat]

i wish there was idk a gamemode that restores the helbore pre-nerf melee

[bitter turtle]

Hb2 gunblade 😔

[tall torrent]

Combined might of 4 chaos gods vs emperor’s weakest bayonet enthusiast

[delicate moat]

brutal momentum now doesn't work on helbore right?

[bitter turtle]

Nope

[ebon umbra]

hellbore did nothing wrong

[delicate moat]

[bitter turtle]

So the dmg is still good on a single target

But

Good luck using it in horde

[delicate moat]

it was glorious before

[bitter turtle]

The cleave is atrocious

[ebon umbra]

gunned down in the street like a common prepatch 13 bolter

[bitter turtle]

Like literally 10 dmg carried over

[ebon umbra]

never forget hb

[delicate moat]

why did they have to do helbore dirty like that

[tall torrent]

Fatshark saw mccraime 1 man solo 17 ragers with a Helbore and said enough is enough

[somber axle]

I think all of the Shotguns have their niche on Veteran tbh

Agripina Shotgun: Bolt action rifle 1HKO gameplay with the special shot that can even pen and damage Crushers reliably while staggering them and being THE only weapon left in the game that can 1 shot break a Bulwark's shield to stagger them while still letting you panic fire extra shots by nature of being a shotgun when there are multiple threats that need to be dealt with in quick succession or you want to increase DPS vs bosses

Lawbringer Shotgun: Manstopper/Scattershot memes for anti-horde control tool that ends up being probably the most ammo efficient ranged weapon for clearing hordes compared to any weapon in the game save for the Purgatus staff for the sheer power of deleting entire groups of hordes all at once and still preserving enough damage at range to be an ok special/elite hunter outside of Crushers

Kantrael Shotgun: Mixed horde killer tool through the fiery special shot with the highest base damage per shot to make it the most efficient shotgun for elite/special hunting outside of utilizing the special shot even if it can't hurt Crushers

[bitter turtle]

It's still good, just lame you can't play it like a melee weapon anymore, that was really unique

[bitter turtle]

You might as well just say most ammo efficient for lawbringer if you're gonna compare it to a force staff that doesn't use ammo

[somber axle]

Isn't suppression by design a mechanic to punish someone for not dodging, using cover or using our own ability to suppress enemies appropriately too then?

[bitter turtle]

Not sure if it's better or worse efficiency than a flamer though

Not that vet can use a flamer anyway

[next spade]

the shotguns do something but it feels very fancy and like a different weapon type almost, not really what you expect from a shotgun imo
like the reolver being in reality a sort of AWP

[tall torrent]

How do u dodge suppression when you can get suppressed behind cover (no enemy shots actually hit you)

[somber axle]

Some blessings that give suppression immunity are already hard to justify but they'd become actually worthless on Vet and idk if keeping those suppression immunity blessings would be anything more than like Falter: just objectively bad choices to brick weapons

[devout maple]

Anyone found a helmet that works well with the Penance Infiltrator armor?

[bitter turtle]

Point blank exists

We already have blessings meant to brick weapons

[tall torrent]

Between the eyes is already a D- tier blessing on veteran

[bitter turtle]

Or suppression immunity blsssing on laspistol

[somber axle]

That's a good point that you still remain suppressed under continuous fire even behind cover

[bitter turtle]

Literally nothing

[somber axle]

Yeah and it would go down to F tier with baseline suppression

[tall torrent]

That’s fine

[bitter turtle]

I don't think we'd lose anything if they were just deleted

[tall torrent]

It’s ok for zealot (if they take infantry lasgun)

[tame lodge]

Dirty gas mask

[tall torrent]

I don’t mind them being deleted either

BTE actually horrible

Efficiency can be deleted too nobody actually runs that

[devout maple]

And which one is that?

[somber axle]

I do agree but then I'd also argue for them to start removing bad blessings from the pool and reworking them to options players might actually consider valuable

[tall torrent]

Shock trooper just replaced efficiency entirely

[bitter turtle]

Well

[tall torrent]

They can, sure, but I don’t see them doing that lol

[bitter turtle]

That's a pipe dream alright

[tame lodge]

Zelt MK VI (purple tier)

[bitter turtle]

Surely crafting update haha

[oblique totem]

Dream of pipes

[somber axle]

Could you imagine Efficiency + Shock Trooper on a no ammo Mael? The Infantry Lasguns have no punching power to compete with Helbores but wow that level of ammo efficiency would be hilarious

[bitter turtle]

The problem with that

Is no ammo mael is mauler and crusher spam

I can't think of a worse gun than ilas to bring

[tall torrent]

Yea it also wouldn’t kill anything because horrible flak dmg and no carapace dmg

[bitter turtle]

You have infinite ammo except the ammo does 1 damage

Some monkey paw shit

[somber axle]

I hope they do tbh because a big blessing rework would definitely draw attention. Maybe they could do it as part of the crafting rework too. New blessings to replace old ones that have no use or too little value that they end up being ignored by most players save for people trying to make a bricked weapon work

[bitter turtle]

If they made a roguelike game mode

The bad blessings would have a purpose

[somber axle]

Yeah. A sad state of affairs for the inability to hurt armour. No ammo is a fun modifier they need to separate out and put onto normal missions imo

[bitter turtle]

To make the best use of what you get

[somber axle]

No ammo modifier for Damnation and Auric Damnation outside of Maelstrom would start making ammo efficienct weapons and blessings more attractive as a niche to counter that modifier

As it stands the Infantry Lasguns with Efficiency are not worth taking there

And they really shouldn't be buffed to deal with anti-armour imo

[tall torrent]

If efficiency just worked like “all shots only consume 1 ammo” then it might be funny to bring but still wouldn’t be that good just because it’s not a +DPS blessing

[wraith locust]

They need to nerf ammo in levels overall

Idk why they increased it

[tall torrent]

Did they mention ammo drop increase?

[somber axle]

I agree but if they added no ammo as a modifier to the occasional rotation on Standard Damnation or Auric Damnation missions then some players might pick it over a damage blessing if only to keep pouring on the damage longer. An empty weapon does no damage unless it's a Helbore that can just keep bayonet charging forever

[tall torrent]

I don’t rly feel having more ammo spawn tbh?

[wraith locust]

Apparently, according to azrael they increased ammo spawns in maps

[bitter turtle]

Probably to offset survivalist nerf if that's true

[wraith locust]

Yep

[bitter turtle]

Think of the gungryns

And gunkers

[wraith locust]

It just lets ppl spam guns still

[tall torrent]

That’s fine let people play the way they want

[bitter turtle]

To be fair

They actually do have ammo problems

I just wish they relied on their own tree to deal with it

Not mine

[somber axle]

I never noticed more tins or packs tbh but it might be to offset Surv Aura nerf and encourage players to spend more time exploring the map for ammo to also encourage players to work together on collecting other resources

like finding medkits or ammo crates

or picking up plasteel/diamantine

[wraith locust]

I have no problem with ppl playing how they want. Just my thoughts on general game balance

[somber axle]

it's more fun exploring back alleys with squads than just dipping away solo, scrounging for things, finding a medkit and pinging it only to realise no one is going to come this direction because everyone is mindlessly running the linear path to mission completion

[bitter turtle]

Well that ship has sailed tbh

When we have a shit shovel that can 1shot crusher and it's not even the best melee weapon

Big powercreep

[somber axle]

Also yes I agree with this wholeheartedly but it will absolutely hurt the average player and I'm not sure on that

Maybe less ammo in levels as you go up in difficulty

[wraith locust]

Well my take is that you can just shoot the entire game and melee rarely

[somber axle]

keep ammo levels the same up to Heresy

then begin to have it fall off in Standard Damnation

less ammo pick ups

[wraith locust]

Which imo isn’t how it should be played

[somber axle]

even less in Auric

[wraith locust]

Melee allows for more skill expression

[wraith locust]

I think this would be reasonable

[somber axle]

you don't have to make higher difficulties go no ammo to encourage ammo efficient weapons

just make ammo drops less common

[wraith locust]

I think they should just remove vet ammo perk, balance all ammo drops to a certain level and go from there

[bitter turtle]

I agree with you but ppl are used to being extremely strong, idk what the reaction would be to an actual forceful weaning off their guns

[somber axle]

especially after surv aura nerf

[bitter turtle]

Someone was arguing to me that the gun is the primary weapon weeks back

[somber axle]

I think they should rework vet ammo to give an additional +5% or +10% to ammo pick ups

so tins and packs are more valuable with the aura

[bitter turtle]

Even though the game literally calls your melee the primary

[wraith locust]

That’s not a bad idea actually

[somber axle]

and it makes sense for a Scavenger Aura/Survivalist Aura

it doesn't break the ammo econ, it lets the devs control ammo econ better by managing the number of ammo pick ups per level

and it encourages the squad to stick together when hunting for ammo

[bitter turtle]

I don't want people to beg me to come over before picking up ammo

[somber axle]

so they can make use of the aura

[bitter turtle]

Can we just not have an ammo aura

And just balance ammo for everyone

[tall torrent]

Changing it from aura to base talent (only works for veteran themselves) is maybe better

[bitter turtle]

Not "gungryn needs vet to take ammo aura or he runs dry in 2 fights"

[hearty panther]

survivalist is just a boring bandaid solution to an actual balanced ammo econ

[wraith locust]

Agreed

[hearty panther]

that people lost their minds at the thought of having to pick ammo up instead of having it magically materalize in their pocket is really all you need to know

[bitter turtle]

Yeah, basically. Idk how you're actually going to nerf ammo w/o ppl losing their shit

[hearty panther]

ive personally not even felt the survivalist nerf because i was already playing with the mindset of not having it for a long time

[bitter turtle]

The surv nerf wasn't even that bad

[tall torrent]

Change it to veteran baseline, replace survivalist by a different aura (either +stam regen rate or +reload speed would be cool)

[wraith locust]

I stopped running it before the nerf

[hearty panther]

my headcannon is that VoC nerfs were also on the table last patch but fatshark held it back cause they realized doing VoC and Survivalist at the same time would lead to suicides

[bitter turtle]

I like reload speed aura

[somber axle]

I've not felt the nerf because I play Recon so I was already min-maxing on Shock Trooper/Crit stacking ammo efficiency and hunting dark alleys and shadows for tins like a rat

[hearty panther]

vet remains one of the absolute strongest classes

[somber axle]

I was prepared for the nerf

[bitter turtle]

Just cause the other classes can't access reload speed easily

[wraith locust]

Vet imo is strongest no question

Has an answer for any situation

Best melee

Best class ability

[somber axle]

that's probably a pretty realistic theory LOL

you'd have people hard quit the game or just hard quit Vet and main another class

[bitter turtle]

Fury > voc

[somber axle]

pre-update meta relied too much on both, post-update meta relies too much on VoC

it definitely feels like it is on the list for the nerf bat

[tall torrent]

Buff exe stance pathing, reduce exe stance & infil talent tax, move demo stockpile into must-take pathing, replace survivalist aura with reload speed/stam regen rate aura, make survivalist’s ammo gain effect only benefit veteran, nerf VoC cooldown to 35~40s

Prob enough

[somber axle]

I agree on all accounts but I'd be heavier handed on VoC nerfs than a CD tap. I'd reduce the Gold Toughness duration after VoC use on top of it. It will still let players pop to full toughness and shove crowds of poxbursters in a pinch, the gold toughness will eat a sniper shot still, but now the uptime is hurting in a way the CD nerf wouldn't change much

[hearty panther]

gold toughness needs a rework. then decide from there.

[short wigeon]

this guy gets it

[hearty panther]

as far as the vet tree goes, it's a mess. it's honestly on rework territory

well, my opinion anyway.

some nodes need to be pushed together, others need to be removed completely, the pathing needs to be shortened

[tall torrent]

Gold toughness needs changes in general and that’s not exclusively VoC

[somber axle]

Isn't the only other source of Gold Toughness in the game Zealot Chorus?

[tall torrent]

But if gold toughness gets changed then the 6 people still playing chorus are gonna be mad

[hearty panther]

yes, and it's also very strong

[somber axle]

Chorus feels balanced imo

[hearty panther]

but chorus is -- yes, in a sense

'balanced'

[somber axle]

VoC feels too strong

[hearty panther]

it's the only ult in the game that's an active channeled ability

which says a lot

[tall torrent]

Let’s just say that crit CDR + chorus is maybe a bit too funny

[hollow ibex]

naaah, leave it be

[somber axle]

I need to do this on my Zealot now LMFAO

[bitter turtle]

Crit cdr needs to be changed in general

[somber axle]

I still need to do the Chorus penance anyway

[hearty panther]

but crit chorus isnt on the same level of accessible as VoC + special cdr

which you can run on literally every build

no special consideration needed

[regal smelt]

Better DMG output with constant uptime and better survivability

[tall torrent]

My take is prob to have duty & honor give u 50 toughness, no overtoughness, but you & AIC get multiplicative 50% TDR for 10s

And keep the nerfed 40s cd

[regal smelt]

That'd maybe work

Is it 4 seconds right now?

40*

[tall torrent]

TDR is generally much more manageable than overtoughness

[tall torrent]

Rn it’s 30s cd

So u ult, kill 2 specials, and by the time the overtoughness runs out you’re 3s away from ult again

In HiSTG it’s very strong lol

[hearty panther]

it's literally never not up

if you get two vets its essentially GG unless people get trapper'd

[regal smelt]

Yeah. If it was 40 seconds there'd at least be downtime to actually take damage

[tall torrent]

Wdyt abt my 50% TDR idea

[regal smelt]

Hell, ogryn taunt gets by pretty well with that cd

[hearty panther]

that's a lot of TDR but idk

i dont mind the idea of overtoughness, i just find the current implementation to be unbelievably generous

[tall torrent]

Can be tuned lower tbh

[hearty panther]

like let's think about chorus for a bit

[tall torrent]

I just want that TDR number to allow me to tank burster/sniper/overhead without going down

[short wigeon]

25% would sound more reasonable

[hearty panther]

chorus takes 6.6~ seconds of continuous channeling to reach its max output

its on a 60s cooldown, the overtoughness lasts for 10s after the last pulse

so its theoretically 16.6s of overtoughness

that's still only 25%~ uptime comapred to vet's 50% on VoC

[tall torrent]

As long as the number allows u to reach toughness breakpoints vs sniper, burster & overhead (at least with veteran’s talents), it’s enough

[hearty panther]

on a channeled ability

[regal smelt]

Also requires full toughness on someone before they get that overtoughness

[hearty panther]

you can get scooped by a mutant or barrels by a teammate before you even hit the overtoughness

[tall torrent]

If it’s lower TDR then maybe 15s uptime instead of 10s

[hearty panther]

and on the fifth pulse you get a bonus

and the idea there is sound, you are 'rewarded' for maintaining the pulses

but in effective gameplay, those rewards are actually pretty meaningless

the TDR is nowhere near as important as just the gold toughness

and taking yourself out of the fight is a bigger damage loss than the damage boost variant could ever grant

and again you cant even guarantee that you hit the fifth pulse

you could be slapped out at any time

so chorus is actually best used for brief flashes of CC

[regal smelt]

Not to mention staying in range of teammates lol

[hearty panther]

and maintained only to the point that your team gets the overtoughness buff

which is three, maybe four pulses max

and chorus is the ONLY ULT IN THE GAME

where you HAVE to spend two talent points

to path out of it

so take all of this together

and then look at VoC

[regal smelt]

Just don't go for keystones like vet lol

[hearty panther]

i wont pretend i havent done it

but zealot keystones are very good

vet keystones are also very good, but his tree nodes are better

[somber axle]

Momentum my beloved

[regal smelt]

Shorter downtime would be fun to try on voc. Actually having to time your yell instead of spamming it

[hearty panther]

(except for Focus Target, which I will continue to state is the strongest keystone in the game but easily the most boring)

[bitter turtle]

I would trade BP for focus target in a heartbeat idk about you

Even without the cdr shenanigans

[hearty panther]

i deffo wouldnt

[tall torrent]

This really depends on the exact build
Most builds at least benefit from middle keystone in some way, I can get people not taking it because they don’t want to have to ping to use it but it was very natural to use for me

[hearty panther]

especially when you have repricocity and desperado in your tree

why do you even need more crit than that

reciprocity? repripropricity? blahabahbabl

[tall torrent]

Reciprocity

[bitter turtle]

Recip is not consistent in gunfights and desperado is melee only

Recip doesn't apply from elite gunners and only half works on trash shooters

[hearty panther]

i'd trade BP for WS

but never for FT

12% global damage bonus for the team and then a targeted 40% damage bonus to enemies that actually matter? insane

too bad it is so boring

soooo boring

you just tag shit

thats it

[tall torrent]

Nah BP is basically Deadshot plus reciprocity + desperado in 1 package without deadshot’s stamina drain

[bitter turtle]

Team bonus really doesn't matter most of the time and it's not really worth holding FT for stacks instead of just tagging everything at 2

[tall torrent]

It’s almost never 40% in practice

[bitter turtle]

Since it refunds stacks on kill

[hearty panther]

thats true

actually it can be a lot more

it's the 12% + whatever stacks

[bitter turtle]

In practice it's more like a 15.5 percent dmg bonus

[hearty panther]

which is still global

if you had a node on any character that said "+15% damage", you take it

it's not really a question

[bitter turtle]

Ya

But

I'd take a node that says 25 crit if I had to choose

Lol

[regal smelt]

My ogryn rock doesn't like that node 😦

[hearty panther]

that's what i mean, people dont not use it because it's weak

people don't use it cause it's boring

[bitter turtle]

Not really

I think wep specialist does a lot more for weapons that can actually use it

[tall torrent]

It’s 7.5% team bonus and 8% usually on tagged enemy

[hearty panther]

if you dont have the additional stacks, yea

this doesnt even include For the Emperor, or potentially fire team (which is also boring)

[tall torrent]

With 8 stacks (which is almost never worth it), it goes to 12% team bonus and 8% usually on tagged enemy

[bitter turtle]

Im of the opinion that FT is largely a personal boost, your team doesn't give a shit about a psyker aura level dmg bonus

[tall torrent]

You get a 4.5% team bonus for 1 point

[bitter turtle]

It might help if they're using an automatic

[somber axle]

Have you heard the clownish antics of how to make a Mk II Helbore 2HKO or even 1HKO Crushers?

[hearty panther]

has that been your new project

[bitter turtle]

They won't build their melee or semi auto bps around u giving them 7.5% dmg

[hearty panther]

ive done it before

[somber axle]

Finished project

I did it a while back and proved both are possible

[hearty panther]

its a whole lot of finesse to hit such a specific BP

[somber axle]

2HKO Crusher kill with the Mk II Helbore isn't even hard to hit

[hearty panther]

and it's like .. you can just shoot him twice, your ammo is free lmao

[balmy flume]

The impossible has happened.
I am in a solo Uprising instance of Vigil Station.
Time to attempt the relic jump…

[tall torrent]

My project is this thing

[regal smelt]

It's a constant 12% as long as you keep tagging stuff that dies. On top of the other team damage boosts it starts actually helping teammates with breakpoints

[somber axle]

[bitter turtle]

Does it actually

[hearty panther]

like again, if you take what FT offers the team, and pretended that it was a node

[tall torrent]

Usually 7.5% is enough

[hearty panther]

you'd take that node on those characters

[bitter turtle]

Name one weapon that you actually go "yeah I specifically want a ft vet on my team for this bp"

And what bp is it

[tall torrent]

8 stacks is a pretty big trap node imo

[regal smelt]

The buff lasts longer than waiting for another 8 stacks to regen, and a new enemy that is tagged and killed refreshes the duration

[tall torrent]

Both target down and redirect fire are much higher value nodes

[tall torrent]

The buff doesn’t last long enough for 8 stacks to regen

[balmy flume]

I GOT THE RELIC

[hearty panther]

i would never waste my time grinding out breakpoitns on other characters on the offchance that there's an FT vet

but FT vet already gets BPs of their own

[somber axle]

CONGRATS DUDE

[bitter turtle]

That's my point

FT is just another 15 percent mode

It's just superiority complex

[balmy flume]

Now to sleepwalk the level with 3 bots XD

[hearty panther]

that we havent found specific examples isnt really a counter

[bitter turtle]

Which is good

[hearty panther]

and we can always point to boss output if nothing else

[bitter turtle]

But I would easily take BP on zealot

[hearty panther]

or just dot damage

[bitter turtle]

Which is deadshot

Except it works on melee

[regal smelt]

Maybe misremembering and was running 5 stacks. Either way I don't care about holding onto stacks and instead prioritize keeping that passive DMG buff going by spamming tag on the next elite

[bitter turtle]

And has no penalties

[hearty panther]

yeah Redirect Fire 100% makes FT what it is

[bitter turtle]

Tacking a psyker elite aura onto superiority complex doesn't really change it meaningfully imo

[hearty panther]

getting a big boost on certain targets is nice but it's the underlining and persistent passive boost that saves the entire node

[somber axle]

Fire Team and Focus Target has some very funny use in Assassination missions or running Karnak Twins because the 5% damage aura is additive with the Focus Target stacks so with 8 stack aura you get 4% damage per stack into 32% damage with another 5% from Fire Team for a total of 37% teamwide damage buff for the effort of being alive near the team and pinging LOL

[bitter turtle]

Which is effectively what we've boiled FT down to

7.5 to the team for elites

[tall torrent]

Redirect fire lasts 10s

You can only recharge up to 6 stacks (1 is minimum default, +5 over 10s) in those 10s if you don’t tag any enemy for 10s straight which is a bigger detriment than what the fully charged 8 stacks would do

[somber axle]

ask someone if they'd take 37% more damage and the answer will always be yes

[bitter turtle]

Well, 7.5 is to everything, 8 to elites

[hearty panther]

you are always adding stacks to redirect fire

you dont have to hit 8 stacks to get 8 stacks, you can jsut tag four things and it's at 8

[tall torrent]

What relic

[balmy flume]

Vigil station
The one with really narrow jumps

[hearty panther]

well, four things that died anyway

[tall torrent]

[bitter turtle]

8 stacks node is 1 point to grab an extra fire team aura

Unless you personally need the boost

I don't think it's really worth grabbing either

[tall torrent]

It’s just a trap node

If u got the luxury to take 8 stacks you should take something else

[bitter turtle]

Again, nobody is going to build around your FT bonuses so only automatic guns really care

Its basically just superiority complex, outside of boss fights

[regal smelt]

Stacks will add up to 8 though. 4 passive DMG stacks + 4 stacks on a killed elite will add up to the full 8 on top of refreshing the duration each time. That's why I spam it because no matter if I'm waiting for full 8 stacks or only getting 1 stack on an enemy it will add up

[agile forge]

But... that would be better if it was multiplicative

1+(.05+.2) < 1.05×1.2

[bitter turtle]

Idk I think it's insane to prefer 15% damage over 25% crit for most builds, are we ignoring ciag crit strings all of a sudden?

[tall torrent]

Tagging an enemy spends all built-up stacks

Build to 8
Tag once, kill

• RF 8 stacks, lasts 10s (can build max 6 stacks in 10s)
  You’re never gonna build to 8 again if you’re to keep RF up, so 8 stack is really just to get 3 more stacks of RF for +4.5% dmg which is almost never worth it

Without 8 stacks:
Build to 5
Tag once, kill

• RF 5 stacks is +7.5% dmg for 10s (can build all 5 stacks within 10s)

The difference you’re looking at between taking and not taking 8 stacks is:
Take: avg +8% dmg on tagged enemy, +12% team wide dmg bonus
Not take: avg +8% dmg on tagged enemy, +7.5% team wide dmg bonus

[agile forge]

You want additive for reductions but multiplicative for increases

[somber axle]

Math is funny but the result is the same. Teamwide damage aura for comparatively little effort. Even ignoring the 8 stack node, at max 5 stacks that's only 12% less damage. So 25% more damage just for existing and pinging, not just to yourself, but to the whole team. For monstrosities that is a noticeable impact regardless

[agile forge]

Yeah, I just thought you were saying the additive part was the crazy part

[somber axle]

If we wanna go funnier add in other teamwide damage buffs too

Ogryn taunt

I can't wait to finish Zealot to try Ogryn

I've wanted to make a Tauntgryn with shield for a while

They look so fun

Grab Skullcrusher and whack things

Give massive damage buffs

[bitter turtle]

Playing ogryn is torture for me

[regal smelt]

Idk. I feel like keeping 8 stacks of RF that applies to all enemies is better than saving more than 4 stacks for a single elite that you may or may not be able to focus DMG into anyways. Worth it for monsters but it doesn't beat the straight DMG buff

[tall torrent]

I’m not saving stacks though?

When did I ever say that I’m saving stacks

[bitter turtle]

He's saying that because you can never save stacks in order to keep RF up, the 8 stack node is only relevant in adding 4.5 percent damage to RF

Which is spending 1 point on a node worse than fire team

You are correct in spamming tags to keep RF rolling, that is the right way to play FT. He is not contesting that

[regal smelt]

Ah I see

[bitter turtle]

He's saying 8 stack is a trap because you will never hold 8 stacks, so all it really does is add 4.5% damage to your aura

And I can think of better things to grab on my builds than a conditional inferior fire team

[regal smelt]

BUT FF doesn't stack on itself with multiple vets unless 1 takes RF and the other doesn't so I'm still taking it every chance I get lol

If I could have a third, worse fire team at this point I would

[tall torrent]

It’s still pretty minuscule in the grand scheme of things and unless you really specifically needs +4.5% more dmg to hit major breakpoints for both melee & ranged weapons, I’d just go for other +dmg nodes

[bitter turtle]

What weapon are you running where 4.5% damage hits a new bp compared to say, getting more nades

[regal smelt]

Flame dots are usually the first thing I think about

[gilded wraith]

Wish me luck, I'm going to try out right tree with

[tall torrent]

And in the case where it only benefits melee or ranged weapon, I’d go for melee/ranged specific +dmg points

[tall torrent]

Nah +4.5% on DOT is not good lol

It’s not zealot’s anoint in blood

[bitter turtle]

Honestly, going against what you and exploits said, I disagree that FTs purpose is redirect fire

Imo, target down is the best subnode there

[tall torrent]

It’s very good

I think target down is the better pick if you’re running automatics

[bitter turtle]

Feeding stam and toughness for deadshot and into your team is way better than giving them psyker aura

[tall torrent]

But redirect fire is better if u need breakpoints

[bitter turtle]

I say psyker aura cause psyker has 7.5% on their tree as an aura

[regal smelt]

I only take it when I really want to be a toughness battery and have almost other source of regen

[bitter turtle]

Ya if you need the bp then redirect fire is just needed

But I meant in terms of team utility

[somber axle]

Target Down for stam efficiency to fuel Deadshot

Forever chasing crit and speed

[bitter turtle]

Your team will appreciate more stam than a random 7.5 damage boost that they probably didn't account for so it does almost nothing

[last parcel]

target down because it makes me feel tacticool to say the name

[agile forge]

Try it with shovel 5 :)

[tall torrent]

Yk if veteran had baseline suppression immunity I’d have taken that instead of determined

Start by making determined a baseline trait for veteran

[agile forge]

I don't even know if the shield really needs loyal protector (taunt)

But it works really well with the shovel 5

I feel like indomitable (charge) is better for shield

[regal smelt]

Stamina I'm not sure about. Only stamina stat that matters to me when I'm not blocking attacks during a revive is regen delay

[tall torrent]

Getting more stamina between dodges (which reset stam regen delay) is always good

[bitter turtle]

More stam means more mobility

Mobility saves games

Not to mention the toughness might help a bit too

Random 10 percent toughness

[somber axle]

stam regen delay nodes my beloved

feels like the stam regens instantly if you somehow get both on the Vet talent tree

[bitter turtle]

But you can sprint or slide through a lot of gunfire even with 10%stam

[somber axle]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-22727788

[tall torrent]

The real conversation we should have is why born leader is consistently better than FTE

[bitter turtle]

I'll still take fte

You can't convince me

That feeding 1.5 toughness on melee kills is worth

Since I ofb on almost every build now

[tall torrent]

81k toughness spread in 1 game is real

[last parcel]

and how much of that was usable

[bitter turtle]

But how often was that toughness actually in a situation where they needed it

[regal smelt]

You can do the same with 0 stamina though, hell the regen for stamina almost kicks in before slides end, probably does with both regen delay talents effectively giving you infinite sprint if you keep sliding

[bitter turtle]

Sprint dodge on gunfire doesn't work without stam

[agile forge]

My psyker thanks you for the random toughness boosts

[bitter turtle]

Unless you're a zealot

With that one node

[agile forge]

I never want to be below 100% toughness for more than a picosecond

[regal smelt]

Never sprint dodging, always sliding

[hollow ibex]

bruuuuh what the fuck is wrong my internet

[tall torrent]

If u had a O4B Rashad and u built 200 toughness
1 hit 40% toughness, that’s gonna be 12 spread to every member on ur team
It’s a lot of small extras that help against horde shooters

[regal smelt]

A fatshark is going after the ocean cables again

[hollow ibex]

had to bail on a match because of this shit

so annoying

[hollow rose]

any gamer here completed adept assasin penance? The 250 headshot crit hits with weapon specialist

[hollow ibex]

it's fine now

[hollow rose]

i'm trying to find a good weapon combo for this

[regal smelt]

Yeah. Revolver with any crit buffs you can get. Specifically the non-fastload revolver you can fully ads

[gilded wraith]

Your teams at evac, you've rubberbanded back to the drop.

[terse idol]

The impact is always hard tp tell for sure

Everyone is cooking their own toughness already

[bitter turtle]

Fuck my team

They can get their own toughness

[wind grotto]

get a gun with surgical, revolver preferable, helbore fine also

[hollow ibex]

i've had someone drop the match 10 meters away from evac. we stayed for two minutes, but he couldn't rejoin

rip

[tall torrent]

It’s a lot of small bonuses that help prevent dmg overall

[bitter turtle]

[hollow rose]

what about melee weapon??

[regal smelt]

I got a strange looking aura in my buff bar a second ago

[regal smelt]

Power sword for everything lol

[bitter turtle]

Rashad probably the best

Psword good too

[hollow rose]

then i dont need to roll a new melee lol

[tall torrent]

Veteran eventually falls into 3 categories
You’re either a power sword enjoyer, a Rashad believer, or you play knife

[bitter turtle]

Anything that can oneshot horde heads

[tall torrent]

Everything else is in-between

[somber axle]

if it makes you feel any better I was also having weird ping issues that seem exclusive to Darktide

[wind grotto]

yeah i'd say just take a power sword or your personal preference, always going to be easier to just guarantee the crit on something and shoot it with the buff for the penance

[somber axle]

so maybe not your internet

[idle swallow]

shovel 🙌

[somber axle]

maybe just Fatshark servers being weird

[somber axle]

but what about me the weird Vet using a Chainaxe?

[tall torrent]

You fall into the grey area between power sword and knife

[hearty panther]

anyone who doesnt use the O.G. shovel deserves to be buried by one

[wind grotto]

I don't hate the chain axe but it sure just feels kind of bad

[somber axle]

can I have more colours in that area to reflect my clownery

[hollow rose]

which revolver is better for this, then? zarona or agripiina

[wind grotto]

at least they can actually kill a crusher on activation I guess

[tall torrent]

No

[bitter turtle]

Zarona

Easily

Agri has inferior precision

[white minnow]

the thing about sprinting through ranged fire is that you regen stamina on being hit if you're at <50% stamina

in which case you have stamina at any time that you're fighting ranged enemies

[somber axle]

[tall torrent]

Actually what’s the cooldown on that

[white minnow]

no cooldown

[hearty panther]

a wild arctopussy appears

[white minnow]

it's per hit

and as long as you're below 50% stamina

[hearty panther]

yeah it's jsut endlessly regenerating

[white minnow]

1 bar per hit

[hearty panther]

it's the only reason i dont even try to make All or Nothing work anymore

[tall torrent]

Oh cool

[hearty panther]

the game just FEEDS you stamina

it's kinda frustrating

[white minnow]

it's a nice comeback mechanic but it is VERY silly

[hearty panther]

... in a way

[white minnow]

exploits L

[bitter turtle]

The entire mechanic is silly

[tall torrent]

What did u try it on

[hearty panther]

i am a neverending series of L's

[bitter turtle]

You can directly sprint into gunfire as long as you don't look at it

[hearty panther]

i tried it on the axes, that was the list, lol

[regal smelt]

It kinda made sense when every gunner bullet had knockback

[hearty panther]

i gave up after that

[hollow rose]

aight, thanks for the tips lads, i'll try it out now

[tall torrent]

Yk if knife had all or nothing we’d be playing an entirely different game rn

[hearty panther]

it makes a lot of sense on weapons with good push attacks that are spammable

[white minnow]

they should probably only enable it for melee hits

and disable it for ranged attacks

[hearty panther]

but you'd hit 0 stam and it would immediately rocket back up if a shooter salvos you

so you cant do anything reliable with it

[white minnow]

because you don't need stamina against ranged attacks except to make use of the ranged i-frames while sprinting thing

since it's primarily intended to prevent melee enemies from steamrolling you when you've been guardbroken, it naturally should only apply to melee attacks

[hearty panther]

oh no

arco got steamrolled

[white minnow]

i kill

[hearty panther]

oh there he is

it's also like

[regal smelt]

I forgot that vermintide did that

[hearty panther]

what and how is ranged meant to punish you

if it straight up feeds you its counter

[bitter turtle]

This is why i stopped putting gunner resist on curios a long time ago

[white minnow]

deadshot maxxers intentionally taking damage to regen stamina

[bitter turtle]

Enemy gunners are just dopamine pinatas

[hearty panther]

duck and dive literally giving u worse stam regen against shooters by dodging instead of getting shot

[regal smelt]

Gunners still definitely hurt if you can't deal with them right away. Any melee with movement speed deals with them easily though

Like I can't start sprint sliding towards them while dealing with 3 specials

[white minnow]

or engaging at a distance
it's really only if you're in the awkward inbetween that you get owned

[hearty panther]

reapers when they are walking forward around the only corner of cover you could find

and just blast your shit to pieces

[white minnow]

me watching my teammate

[tall torrent]

Is it limited to hit on toughness or it’s any hit that causes dmg

[white minnow]

their hp turning into shreds as the sound of a reaper fires

any hit, including corruption it seems

[tall torrent]

Thx, will include in my guide

[hearty panther]

i have definitely felt the loss of ranged damage reduction on toughness break

[regal smelt]

Always funny to watch teammate health bars when that happens

[white minnow]

e.g., if you've done any meme daemonhost tanking in the psykhanium, your stamina will constantly go up from the daemonhost corruption aura if you have invincibilty on

[hearty panther]

sometimes i run out to 'quickly unnet' a teammate and i am instead shredded like im on the beach at normandy

[tall torrent]

Reaper does like 40 dmg per shot lol

[hearty panther]

too used to having that damage shield from before

[white minnow]

this is to say

stamina maxxing means to take grimoires

[hearty panther]

beacon of purity is META

[white minnow]

OH WAIT

BACON + GRIMOIRE

hmmm

[hearty panther]

u heard it here first folks

[regal smelt]

Bacon on grims is there yea

[hollow ibex]

man i always want to give low true level players on AM the benefit of the doubt, and somehow i always end up regretting it

[white minnow]

i wonder if corrupting empty health will count for the regen mechanic

[somber axle]

that's how I did my beacon of purity penance in like 2 matches

grimoire

LOL

very funny setting the game to track the penance and hitting tab to check the number on the screen passively going up as beacon fights grimoire the whole match

[hearty panther]

i liked having that tracker

on a regular auric it would clear off 500-1k corruption

p. nice

[regal smelt]

Number go big

Too bad I ran out of penances with big number

Only one I got is the ogryn lucky bullet keystone and that just tells you to take teammate ammo for an extra 10/4500 ticks

[tall torrent]

Shoot 37500 bullets

Slurp up all 8 charges from both ammo crate spawns

Acquire 8 ammo bag + 16 ammo tin pickups per mission

True t’augryn mindset

[regal smelt]

I've been farming it solo during anti-peak hours on the Karnak twins ammo box. Usually no one is around and I block the people who are so I can leave them alone

I guess switching que servers can help too

[white minnow]

bacon + grimoire is infinite stamina, albeit i forgot that it's on a 1 second timer

[hearty panther]

now the question is

left side, or right side bacon

[regal smelt]

You mean the talents above? Right side always

[white minnow]

hmm

i wonder if you can run infinitely with knife if you slap on sprint eff

because knife has 0.5 sprint cost

[hearty panther]

oh arco

[white minnow]

hmm?

[hearty panther]

ive been doin this for a while now

sprint eff

[white minnow]

sigh

[regal smelt]

You get plenty out of +9 stamina and sprint eff already

[hearty panther]

take unremitting in the same bracket

the answer is yes

[white minnow]

criminals

[hearty panther]

sadly its not like

reliable

cause you arent always operating at the exact same tempo for shit

but it's basically endless stamina, yes

[regal smelt]

It's definitely funny not running out ever

[white minnow]

i think 4x sprint eff + bacon + grim does lead to infinite stamina with knife

my god

[hearty panther]

4x?

oh on the knife

unremitting is the same value

[white minnow]

ah right

i forgot that existed

[hearty panther]

smh

haters

[white minnow]

hhnngnghghngn

[hearty panther]

you'll see it

the feeling you get when your stamina bar

goes down by a single % point after five seconds of sprinting

and then you'll understand

[white minnow]

i don't believe i ever will understand

[hearty panther]

THE POWERRR

[hollow ibex]

nice

love losing my ASS streak because i went to rez a teammate

no good deed goes unpunished i guess

[regal smelt]

Has anyone figured out if born leader regens toughness based on % or actual value? Would running toughness curios increase the amount it gives to teammates

[hearty panther]

you regen 10% on 200, you get 20. teammates get 15% of 20.

[regal smelt]

Okay cool

So an extra +25toughness tick is at least doing something

Out of all the new penances I wish we got one specifically for born leader

Would be better than any of vets keystone penances at least

[hearty panther]

i just want more trackers lol

[regal smelt]

You will mod your scoreboard in and you will like it

[hearty panther]

i dont mod at all

i dont think the scoreboards that exist can be set up to track just born leader output, as an example

thats why having the tracker for pure bacon was so nice

i could only really guess at the output/value of it

but actually seeing it makes evaluating it much easier

[regal smelt]

I thought there was at least a scoreboard plugin that tracked toughness regen applied to teammates

[somber axle]

I modded in Scoreboard and tbh it just made me more toxic as far as how I'd judge my team in quickplay (not OPENLY I wasn't being rude in chat, just thinking rude things)

much better to just play vanilla no mods and enjoy the game without tracking everyone at once

[hearty panther]

thats how i do

[regal smelt]

I have it now to defend myself against toxicity since people want to come on here and complain when I do the same amount of damage as them

[somber axle]

yeah I tried that when people doubted my clown shenanigans on Recon

saved some Scoreboards that were funny

then when Scoreboard was making my game unstable and crash I deleted the mods folder and haven't looked back

the hard part is realising you're here to have fun

you don't need to impress anyone

let others believe what they will and do what you want

the best life is living your choices, not the choices made by others

[hearty panther]

and smokin some dank doobies

[wraith locust]

Default scoreboard shows wrong numbers anyway iirc

[regal smelt]

#ogryn-class message idk it's great to call them out on their bs in front of others

[wraith locust]

The guy that made ovenproof made a really good one

[somber axle]

I downloaded like every single plug-in I could find on Nexus to track ammo pick ups, targets pinged, etc.

It was disappointing to realise most quickplay pugs ping targets a total of 0 times

[wraith locust]

The new one is called power DI

[somber axle]

On Damnation

[wraith locust]

it’s super thorough

[wraith locust]

This is me on lights out bc I can’t see shit

[somber axle]

I remember a funny story an Ogryn told me where a Vet was loudly complaining about the lack of damage his team was doing even though he kept dying. The Ogryn asked him how much damage his gun does when he's dead and the Vet ragequit out of the match

I laugh about it whenever I remember the story

DPS meters are for people trying to peacock flex on others

Game is for fun and I'll flex by the cool outfits I wear

[somber axle]

That's good to know. I have a friend coming over to try Darktide for the first time after playing mostly MMORPGs. WoW, FF14, etc. so they might want to try that to see their personal performance

[regal smelt]

I haven't seen any loadout shaming since talent trees, besides assail. You can easily carry people that use recons and gobble ammo if you have a half decent loadout on hi int gauntlets

[somber axle]

I see people in the discord shaming Smitekers and occasionally Loner Zealots (and also the Recon shaming LMFAO)

[regal smelt]

I had 1 vet try and get a team of ogryns to switch to ranged pre match but that was a non-auric damnation

[somber axle]

Recons are my fav and I will die on that hill alone after outlasting my quickplay pug to be the last one standing and the last one shooting

[regal smelt]

Just give it bigger max ammo pls. More ammo economy would go so far

[tall torrent]

It needs DPS buff first

[somber axle]

I'd love that or some other way to maximize ammo efficiency on it

[tall torrent]

Buff recon’s headhunter blessing, buff finesse dmg (especially Crit weakspot dmg), just double down on making it a crit heavy weakspot weapon

[somber axle]

yes please

[arctic rampart]

just give recon brutal momentum

[regal smelt]

Would be nice yeah. Not just a worse infantry autogun

In response to brutal momentum of course

[hearty panther]

give it blaze away

[regal smelt]

Can't even 1 shot headshot to make use of it sadly

[somber axle]

Give it Manstopper

unironically make it hilarious as a crit machine that cleaves through poxwalker hordes

could you imagine a Recon Mk VIIa with Manstopper and Headhunter?

evaporate hordes

[arctic rampart]

make it shoot cats instead of lasers

the cats turn into acid demons that melt everything

[hearty panther]

give it tits

[somber axle]

give it a rainbow coloured skin so I can look more like a clown while using it

[regal smelt]

Charmed reload

If we can't get an actual helgun let us make one

[somber axle]

Yes please

[fallow fjord]

Vet should get a heavy stubber and hotshot volleygun, just to add to the "big gun that is slow to reload" list

[last parcel]

give vet a muzzle loaded musket

tally ho lads

[tame lodge]

Blow a loyalist sized hole on the heretic
Swap to agripina revolver, misses because it's braced and nails the pox hound
Then resort to the Ogryn with the kickback loaded with grapeshot

[iron marten]

Just as the God-Emperor intended

[regal smelt]

Been waiting for basically this on helldivers 2 since the first game had a joke weapon of this caliber.

Game has to survive Sony shitting on it first though

[terse idol]

all I can say is it proobably will so

We'll see

rarely will a game that musters 400,000 sales ever just dies

[tall torrent]

it's not gonna die but it'll take a hit

[somber axle]

I think most people will just end up linking their accounts after a lot of complaining and continue playing

[hearty panther]

yep, lmao

it's gonna be that "boycott mw2 steam group" image all over again

[regal smelt]

There's enough problems with it's development that made me okay with quiting

[somber axle]

The average middle school, high school and even college student either doesn't know or doesn't care about the cybersecurity problems Sony has and are just parroting others whining because they see others whining without really knowing why

Give this a week and the collective attention span in the HD2 community will shift to new gun or nerfs

The inconvenience of linking the accounts is just going to be a blip on the radar for most of them

[regal smelt]

Idk bout the cyber security argument since every company is shit with your personal data and getting hacked, but their account support is atrocious

[somber axle]

Sony is pretty awful with data breaches compared to other companies

[last parcel]

rip pinoy homies

[somber axle]

But like very few people know or care LOL

People review bombing it on Steam like Sony is going to sweat and rollback the change LMFAO

Gamers are so funny

Sony doesn't care and the choice was already made

There's definitely an argument to be made for the unfortunate HD2 players in countries without PSN support who will just cease to be able to play at all

Most of the playerbase is in PSN accessible countries though so that isn't going to be a reason for a significant drop in players probably

[regal smelt]

Yeah considering that playercount is still strong despite the reviews means it's not going to change much when the forced link comes

[somber axle]

Calling it now: this will just be Railgun nerf doomsaying 2.0 with weirdos putting on tinfoil hats and linking any sort of change in player numbers while pointing and going "look game dead!!"

[pallid jetty]

i want Fatshark to fire those guys who localizate the game to russian
"Flawless execution" is when you do something without a mistake, not choping someone's head flawlessly you dumbfucks (казнь in russian means choping the head off)
this is just one of the thing that almost impossible to fuck up, i cant man

[somber axle]

[pallid jetty]

literally so many things are done to the localization by modders its hard to believe that these guys are so bad at their job

[regal smelt]

Localization mistakes are funny I wish I knew more than half a language

[pallid jetty]

they are annoying when you know both languages

never funny

[somber axle]

Duolingo Owl stalking your shadow waiting to execute you for not doing your language homework

[regal smelt]

Oh no, I'm late for my high gothic lesson

[candid agate]

what do yall think the hardest maelstrom modifier is

[stable socket]

my guess is nurgle blessing (or lights out) + monstrous specialists

[candid agate]

in my experiance dealing with monstrous specialists is really easy until they get combined with normals enemies and elites

[stable socket]

with the new tox bomber, lights out + monstrous can spiral out of control very easily

[candid agate]

to be fair any malestrom mission can turn into chaos except for a few

[stable socket]

cuz you can't see pings through the gas, it's very hard to see/kill him in the dark before he throws gas, and everything suddenly becomes a lot more dangerous in gas, the team needs to kill very quickly while also moving in the same direction to not be split up and if there's a monstrosity or two up close, you need insane DPS to keep everything under control

[candid agate]

true

[desert temple]

lol i crashed and then joined in again and got the make every shot count penance

[tiny summit]

isnt that just describing darktide's whole difficulty?

[candid agate]

true but in some cases the chaos is much worse and happens much faster

[crude fiber]

Can't wait for them to combine lights out, ventilation surge, and pox gas all together

Maybe throw in some grimoires with it

[mortal horizon]

whats the best shovel?

[crude fiber]

Standard

[mortal horizon]

the new one they added not as good? whats its niche

[hearty panther]

theyre all good

[mortal horizon]

just looking for like a tl;dr breakdown of each ones niche

like standard issue has the best sweeping heavies maybe?
the new one folds and does big single target?
which one is that bc theres the MK VII and III

im just kinda guessing based on seeing people use them i havent really, just wanted to maybe build one

but gotta decide which to roll

[somber axle]

From the numbers cat guide in pins

Keep in mind this info is out of date as of the recent update and numbers cat is currently working on a new version

[mortal horizon]

nice perfect, sorry didnt see it there

[somber axle]

But the info here should be somewhat helpful still

[mortal horizon]

tyvm

[somber axle]

Welcomes!

And no worries

[mortal horizon]

ah, ill go look at the last patch notes to see what changed

[somber axle]

I never check pins in any discord I join

[mortal horizon]

and take that into consideration

[hearty panther]

roughly speaking, the iii is single target focused and the vii is more for crowds

[woven mesa]

The only 3 weapons that should be used on Vet is chain sword chain axe or power sword

[hearty panther]

but both have the spikey activate, and the vii has a push attack combo that is pure single target

so the vii is just kindaaaa better

[next spade]

which one was the better helbore?

[mortal horizon]

I dont see any mention of balance to shovels in path of redemtion notes. Was it a patch before that?

[hearty panther]

the sapper tho has higher base attack speed than the other two

and its special is instant use and staggers everything on a headshot

[last parcel]

the disclaimer is just in general

[mortal horizon]

gotcha

looks like the MK VII munitorum is what ill try

[marble yew]

What blessings/perks should i aim for on the perfect plasma gun, this is my current one 🤔

also, what is the dump stat on the plasmas

[hearty panther]

thermal

[ebon umbra]

ammo

[agile forge]

From what I gather they all excel differently

1 and 2 have the good bayonet

2 is fastest but needs an extra shot for a few enemies compared with the 1, it's my favourite

1 is the midrange

3 from what I gather is quite a bit slower but very powerful

I heard something about crusher 1-shots?

The bayonet is shit though

It's one of the rare weapon families where you can argue for all 3 marks

[somber axle]

Numbers cat is going back through and testing weapons again so they may change recommended perks/blessings on the release of the 2.0 guide

The disclaimer is just because the info may change in the future as far as recommended perks/blessings

[last parcel]

And the radar charts are getting redone

[somber axle]

Mk II is the best Helbore imo but it depends on personal preference

Mk I is the easiest to build for breakpoints and a nice average for a new player starting into Helbores. It has the fast bayonet thrust attack as a weapon special that can 1 tap hound heads, stagger and kill ragers, thrust down muties fast, etc.

Mk II is faster but lower damage. Harder to hit breakpoints and you want a lot of things to make it worth using over the Mk I. You need 70%+ Damage, Stopping Power and Charge Rate. You also want Surgical (Mandatory imo) and Weight of Fire (could swap WoF for No Respite and be ok). You NEED Unarmoured perk for the Dreg Gunner breakpoint. Maniac is important for the Flamer breakpoint. You can also build the Mk II with Carapace perk to become a 2HKO Crusher killer using Marksman, Bring It Down, Superiority Complex and Executioner's Stance for a consistent Crusher killing Helbore. Depending on how you build it you want some combo of those three perks. That's a hard thing to roll so many important things for. Mk II also shares the very fun bayonet thrust weapon special with the Mk I

Mk III is the slowest but highest damage and can consistently and easily 1HKO Crushers, Elites, Specials, etc. but has an awful bayonet attack (slow diagonal swing) so most prefer the Mk I or Mk II over it

[marble yew]

is blaze away a big upgrade from shattering impact on the plasma 🤔

big enough to warrant trying to roll a new one

[ebon umbra]

it depends on how many dockets you have. Blaze away flicks for multiple targets are reliable. If you can't keep the blaze away stacks from getting to 2 or 3 id stay away

[agile forge]

Plasma blessings are generally unimpactful

your ADMs are crazy good so shattering impact lacks, uh, impact

blaze away is probably the best, along with gets hot

but perks more important

[stable socket]

blaze away feels very good for monstrosities, if you use plasma for those instead of your melee weapon

[marble yew]

aight ill try and roll a new one, what perks am i aiming for

[agile forge]

that's a good question rhonda

[ebon umbra]

Blaze away can help you position your shots better, too. Instead of lining up a dreg gunner headshot, hit center mass for the flak or even unarmored. You would do this to get collateral kills on trash mobs and more

i like to horde clear while elite clearing

but i dont know much idk

[stable socket]

personally i run flak/maniac to get a reliable one shot bodyshot breakpoint on both flamers (may require high damage rolls or redirect fire stacks, not 100% sure, you should test in psykhanium with the loadout mod)

[ebon umbra]

go maniac with your choice of unarmored, carapace, flak

[stable socket]

i don't know if that's the ideal though

[split sapphire]

I tried slaughter on my mk.III power sword, getting 40% extra power to your attacks helps

[stable socket]

i actually wonder if unarmored instead of flak still lets you one shot bodyshot scab bombers, because i cannot one shot bodyshot the new tox bombers with flak+maniac

flak may still be good for maulers because even when you headshot maulers it's still flak for some reason, but idk if there are specific breakpoints

[split sapphire]

Dreg bombers are unarmored, scab bombers are only unarmored on his head and arms, his legs as well i think, body armor is flak

Maulers are best attacked at their chest neck line and lower, head is not worth targeting, less you got a plasma gun

[tall torrent]

mk7

[stable socket]

ok yeah its a tradeoff, flak allows for much easier 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot breakpoints on maulers but unarmored guarantees tox bomber 1 bodyshot whereas with flak i need 8 stacks of redirect fire + 3 stacks of the tag (edit: the 1 headshot + 1 bodyshot breakpoint on maulers is still pretty tough even with flak)

[agile forge]

I thought Scab Bombers were maniacs

[split sapphire]

No, scab trappers, both flamers/ ragers and the mutant are maniacs

Well scab ragers are flak but they are maniac based on a similar attack pattern as the dreg one

[lucid ginkgo]

Is there any breakpoint mk1 iag can reach? Or any way boost maximum potential from this bad girl? Preferably for mid-long distances, not this amorphous "close range" kill

[tall torrent]

flak torso, unarmored head & arms

[tall torrent]

1hs all horde shooters

[ebon umbra]

do you have a favorite weapon setup atm?

[tall torrent]

does that count

[tall torrent]

I have a very troll build rn

[ebon umbra]

... ?

[arctic rampart]

a dull spoon

[tall torrent]

Mk6 knife: uncanny + mercy
MG1a infantry lasgun: headhunter + deadly

[ebon umbra]

this reminds me of a zealot i know

how often you shoot the flashlight

[arctic rampart]

I read that as "shoot the fleshlight"

[tall torrent]

A lot

Basically everything that’s not mauler/ogryn

But I also have a godroll MG1a

[ebon umbra]

stab and mobility aren't even that low. that is a pretty shadow puppet machine

[hollow ibex]

only 67 stability

bricked

[agile forge]

Remember to use the weapon special to make it twin linked

[last parcel]

send it to the scrap heap

[tall torrent]

I only rly use the light in areas where ik daemonhosts can’t spawn lol

[white minnow]

pew pew

[marble yew]

found a 380, kinda fucked at hadron though, maybe salvagable to be better than my old one 🤔

[wraith locust]

this is winnable

swap stamina > your perk of choice

shattering > blaze

[marble yew]

yeah i figured but im lacking a rank 4 gets hot and rank 4 perk 🤔

[wraith locust]

dont think that will make much difference

[agile forge]

Yeah, you got your godroll there imo

[tall torrent]

Salvageable, good enough
Stamina -> elite
Shattering -> gloryhunter/blaze away

[small mauve]

and it started with maniac 25% t.t I'll try out decimator and see how it feels. 4.5m dockets down the drain, I'm back to 0

[fresh saddle]

what changes for this one friends?

[terse idol]

Not a big difference

[slate hawk]

Kobold spotted

Today is a good day

[terse idol]

Dragoooo

[bitter turtle]

Unarmored, not flak

Should be usable as long as you can avoid dropping decimator

[small mauve]

why unarmored over flak?

[tall torrent]

Scab bruiser 1HS

[small mauve]

okay thanks

[slate hawk]

It is I :3

[hearty panther]

i need one of you modders to test something

falter on a helbore

bayonet stab a crusher/mauler in different attack stages

im guessing it wont result in a difference

but what if ...

it did

[somber axle]

I've tested Falter IV on a Mk III Helbore and the results were sad. It couldn't stagger a Crusher no matter how many shots I used even when skipping certain damage talents to do less damage in an attempt to see if the extra shots would cause a stagger. This was in the Psykanium though and I didn't test it on a Mauler or on a Crusher in the middle of an attack so I can't say what would happen if you used that instead. Mk II might be able to get better use out of Falter IV just because unless you use Executioner's Stance, Marksman and +Carapace perk it will take somewhere in the ballpark of 5-7+ shots to kill a Crusher depending on Mk II's stats and if you took things like Bring It Down, Superiority Complex, Kill Zone, Longshot, etc.

Falter IV is a dead blessing on a Helbore Mk III

[idle swallow]

They need to make something like crit headshots guarantee a heavy stagger on non monstrosities, I wanna become a ranged bully machine

For whatever isn't killed outright

[somber axle]

Part of the problem was just that the Mk III test was flawed from the beginning. If you can easily get 1HKO breakpoints on Crushers with it, why ever use Falter to begin with? I should go back in with the Mk II eventually and test it since most people are not running Exe Stance and +Carapace perk on their Mk II's

[urban steppe]

which columnus better ? mk V or mk II ?

[somber axle]

A Mk II with 75%+ Charge Rate stat can basically ignore Weight of Fire without too much trouble anyway if someone would rather grab No Respite, and if it's flexible enough to do that, maybe there's an argument for Falter IV on a Mk II assuming it can stagger a Crusher/Mauler/Bulwark...

[hearty panther]

yea but not shooting

with the bayonet

no respite does indeed work on the bayonet

also yea, helbores, great weapons lol

they did good work with the bayonet buffs

[somber axle]

wait you meant with the bayonet on a Crusher??

[hearty panther]

ye

[somber axle]

that's going to bounce hitting carapace

[hearty panther]

Falter doesnt specify ranged

and 100% stagger bleedthrough

[somber axle]

bayonet charging a crusher is silly

[hearty panther]

who knows til u try

[somber axle]

but I guess I could test it

[hearty panther]

think of the possible funies

[somber axle]

Columnus Infantry Autogun (Mk V) is considered the most powerful gun in the game by many. Columnus Braced Autogun (Mk II) is considered weak and not worth using over the other Braced Autogun alternatives by some who used Braced Autoguns here. I don't touch the Braced Autoguns much but it's not like the Columnus Braced Autogun is bad like a Shredder Autopistol, it's just that it has the same problem the Shredder Autopistol has: it's outclassed in every way by other weapons in every category

Agripina Braced Autogun is what you may want to play with if you like Braced Autoguns since it enjoys the funny bullet cleave even if it fires slower. Graia Braced Autogun gets a funny faster fire rate when braced afaik

You can use any of the Infantry Autoguns (Columnus, Agripina, Graia) because they're all good but the Columnus Infantry Autogun is in a tier of its own as one of the most powerful guns in the game, if not THE most powerful gun in the game right now

[urban steppe]

i just looking new toy to relax on a low missions (tired from aurics ) . but in usual im plasma main xD . thanks for detailed explanation

[somber axle]

Welcomes!

[somber axle]

I may test it later tonight after D&D if I have time. I'm meeting up with friends for that today and want to squeeze out a few more Darktide matches before I get into it or I'd test it now

If not then I'll try to test it tomorrow before work

[tall torrent]

it's only ranged

a bunch of blessings don't do what they say they do

I can send u all the blessings I'm including in my veteran guide rn

what they actually do

[midnight totem]

To be fair, this is 40k

Guardsmen bayonet charge shit they shouldn't be doing all the time

... and sometimes they actually win

[potent iris]

well if you think about it the last thing a tank would expect is a bayonet charge

no one builds tanks with stab proof vests

[last parcel]

DRIVE ME CLOSER

[midnight totem]

I find it hilarious when my vet (professional voice) talks about preferring to keep them at a distance

When my playstyle is all "I'm a zealot but cooler"

[umbral scaffold]

Wait, you can't use your combat ability for "Up and At'em?

[last parcel]

still, there’s something to a bit of smack and stab that you don’t get from a rifle

[midnight totem]

I dunno

Never used shouts for revive

I've gotten less people to revive and rescue since starting auric

Going back to regular damnation so I can finish the rescue penance

[last parcel]

me trying to chill in regular damnation:

[midnight totem]

10 deaths!

That's 10 rejects I can pick up for my penance!

[last parcel]

someone outran me so i only got 9

[midnight totem]

... blow them off with a barrel

https://tenor.com/view/doja-cat-star-wars-gif-25078126

[last parcel]

blowing them didn't work

[midnight totem]

Shame

[marble yew]

I almost god rolled a new one, perfect perks and blessings, just a little bit lackluster but still strong base stats

[tall torrent]

Unfortunately plasma wants 78+ in both dmg and SP

[marble yew]

ah shit, important breakpoints i guess

[tall torrent]

U might miss 1 or 2

Which means u may need to take longshot on top of redirect fire

Not the worst thing in the world but it’s extra talent point cost

[rapid palm]

So, are shotguns a good choice to run with a stealth/infiltrate built?

[midnight totem]

sure

[shadow aurora]

I use it and it works good

[midnight totem]

who doesn't like unstealthing next to a heretic and blasting them in the face?

[shadow aurora]

-threat allows you to get closer and focus on aiming

[midnight totem]

well the heretic probably doesn't like it, but nobody cares about them

[wise fossil]

Smoke penance DONE

no more coughing for me

[midnight totem]

smoke penance was one of te easier ones to get

and, it was legit useful in some places

[rapid palm]

do you have to run survivalist with inflitrate or can you get away with running a diffrent aura assuming your using a shotgun?

[midnight totem]

if you're good with aim and ammo conservation you can use a different aura

[pallid jetty]

watching playstation streaming tekken tournament and people are very angy in chat

[wise fossil]

might as well run close and kill since agile engagement rules

[radiant chasm]

this is going to be like HK blizz fiasco all over again

a lot of outrage, nothing changin

[midnight totem]

whats going on in tekken?

[radiant chasm]

related to HD2 sony

[midnight totem]

Oh!

whelp

[pallid jetty]

some of them are getting permabans

[tall torrent]

If you’re gonna play infiltrate basically just say goodbye to survivalist

[pallid jetty]

looks funi

[wise fossil]

hmmmm flak I guess

[midnight totem]

you can use a survivalist infiltrate build, but... its very, very point heavy

[pallid jetty]

haha yeah scab gunners are the real menace, ogryns are like poxwalkers anyway

ouch

alright, whatever

[shadow aurora]

This about the helldivers stuff?

[pallid jetty]

yes

[shadow aurora]

Yeah, they deserve every but of shit theyre getting. If they dont revoke there stance helldivers is probably dead in the water

And probably means i wont get to play it <--(xbox)

[pallid jetty]

that would be a dirty move, but FS gotta make smth out of it imo

[shadow aurora]

Oh yeah. Helldivers took alot of people away from dt

Ones that didnt come back went to drg

Would be a great time to drop some new weaponry

Or something equally as big as that

[radiant chasm]

tbf they should do it in channels that matter

[shadow aurora]

Yeah probably

[wise fossil]

Krakmaxxxing time

[radiant chasm]

or else you'll end up with the blizz HK thing

[pallid jetty]

what is HK

[wise fossil]

gonna try the infiltrate + underhand krak to get this done

[radiant chasm]

blizz censoring the HK riots

[pallid jetty]

honk kong, i see