veteran-class

[pallid jetty]

https://tenor.com/view/heavy-weapons-team-imperial-guard-dawn-of-war-warhammer40k-gif-15592890

[wind grotto]

yeah I assume dt2 is coming from how slow updates have been on this

probably only a year or two off honestly

[rigid pilot]

Maybe they will give up on James workshop and make their own IP

[potent iris]

FS is just slow, DT2 isn't in the works from what I know

[tall torrent]

It’s most likely not

[thick needle]

Dark Vermin

[wind grotto]

no they were slow for vt2 updates, dt updates have been somehow even worse than that

[rigid pilot]

I can't see how a whole 200(?) employee strong company is sitting on their hands and not working on a new game

[tall torrent]

It really depends on what each person’s role is
There’s not really an industry standard on how many people should be on one project

[wind grotto]

too busy cranking out new cosmetics to make new weapon models clearly

[rigid pilot]

I mean they can't be telling their shareholders "we made 3000 bucks this month from darktide whales, also we have no future plans"

They are working on VT2 versus that also doesn't make any money

It would make sense if vt2 versus is a testbed for whatever new coop/vs game they are coming up with

[tall torrent]

My guess is some kind of major premium release

DT is still in the catch-up phase

[wind grotto]

I don't think the vt2 versus is a testbed, I think it's them very very slowly finally catching up to the many many promises they made and did not fulfill years ago

[rigid pilot]

Even if they release darktide: iceborne the existing playerbase isnt anywhere as big as going for a whole new game

[wind grotto]

which is impressive in a way at least

[tall torrent]

I don’t think any kind of darktide sequel is planned

[rigid pilot]

Probably not yea

Which is why I'm thinking their own IP or smth

[jaunty fiber]

A sequel or new game wouldn't depend on an existing playerbase to justify either.

[bronze trout]

There can definitely be a darktide 2.0 patch that drives player numbers up but it has to deliver on that 2.0 for that to happen

[tall torrent]

We wouldn’t be seeing it for the next few years anyway

[rigid pilot]

It would be something they are working on now for sure, but I doubt their entire plan going forward is darktide 2.0

[jaunty fiber]

Until the game has issues filling out matchmaking, I don't think the player numbers are an issue.

[potent iris]

they really haven't been, the pace is comparable

VT2 had like 8 months of nothing after release

[tall torrent]

Maybe this is after the crafting update

That’s my guess

[rigid pilot]

VT2 also released a complete game with 15 classes

[potent iris]

every tide game has had significant content droughts

[tall torrent]

I have no clue how they’re gonna expand on the skill-tree-based class system

[wind grotto]

they add more classes

[rigid pilot]

New archetypes probably

[jaunty fiber]

Yeah they'd have to add entirely new character classes

[tall torrent]

Adding more branches will interfere with existing branch balance

[jaunty fiber]

Which is hardly outside of the realm of reason

[wind grotto]

no thats not a class, thats a new tree in the skill tree

we only have 4 classes

[tall torrent]

And there aren’t that many more archetypes they could add rn?

Tech adept people want

[jaunty fiber]

What's this about archetypes?

[tall torrent]

Ratling is no

[rigid pilot]

New teats

[potent iris]

yes but oh man it was just as much of a buggy mess, if not more so

[soft solstice]

before the different branches of each tree was suppose to be it's own class pretty much. They can't really add new ones to the existing ones without complicating them heaviliy but they can always add brand new ones, but that means a ton of work for lines, cosmetics, and voices

[rigid pilot]

True

[jaunty fiber]

The warhammer lore is rife with character and combatants to emulate in such a game. They have myriad options to pick from

[tall torrent]

Yea they sort of shot themselves in the foot with the skill tree system even though I think it’s way better than VT2’s subclasses

[jaunty fiber]

No they did not

[wind grotto]

oh the skill tree is fantastic but I thinkt he thing they actually shot themselves in the foot over is customizable characters

[soft solstice]

the original plan was pretty much VT2 careers

[wind grotto]

and not prebaked john darktide the veteran

[potent iris]

the next class will be a servoskull with a glock

[wind grotto]

and etc

[jaunty fiber]

Yeah and they figured it'd have sucked here.

Especially because the crafting scheme is so different

[soft solstice]

which is why each class had a listed unique weapon despite having more that only they can use, like sharpshooter only having the shovel and helbore as their unique weapon

[tall torrent]

Adding new branches interfere with existing skill branches
Adding new archetype requires minimum 3 branches on top of cosmetics, voicelines, personalities, etc to be done which is a ton of work

Whichever way u look at it it’s hard

[rigid pilot]

Plasma

[jaunty fiber]

It would be a lot of work either way.

[rigid pilot]

Or do you mean the subclasses

[jaunty fiber]

That's not shooting oneself in the foot

[soft solstice]

yes that too, if another veteran class did come out, they would have been able to use the plasma gun and power sword but not the shovel or helbore

[iron marten]

just had the longest maelstrom in my life

[rigid pilot]

Their old version of skill trees had plasma locked behind keystone

Which was removed for good reason

[wind grotto]

no it had extra abilities for plasma behind a keystone

[tall torrent]

Besides tech adept and ratling what other archetype do u think works well as reject

[soft solstice]

which is why originally the name of the class channels here was different, instead of just veteran class it was veteran sharpshooter, so if we got the middle veteran tree as it's own class, we would have gotten a channel called veteran sargent

[rigid pilot]

Ah, yes

[soft solstice]

it's why ogryn has the shield and grenade gauntlet listed as their unique weapon despite all their weapons being unique

if another ogryn class were to get release, they'd have all the same weapon but the new class wouldn't get the shield and gauntlet

[jaunty fiber]

LITERALLY anything they want. You can shoehorn anything into the context of "under imperial scrutiny but still useful"

[tall torrent]

Examples?

[soft solstice]

the ogryn example illustrates the point the best

[wind grotto]

Arbite, and a servitor are the really obvious examples

[jaunty fiber]

I've been listening to a song on youtube called Priestess and imagining it as a wrongely imprisoned sister of battle's reveal trailer.

[tall torrent]

What would be the main difference between veteran and arbites

[wind grotto]

i'm not a game dev but there sure are a lot more things you could do with the idea of grenade aura and ability than what vet has for an arbite

[jaunty fiber]

Again you can just do whatever you want with the less-than-space-marine concepts. Everything has an inherently moretal fallability you can squeeze into the context of the player character

That's not the hard part of making new careers

It's everything else

[potent iris]

tech adept would defo be the most obvious free win for FS

[jaunty fiber]

Indeed

[wind grotto]

yeah thats the one most people want I imagine

[tall torrent]

Hot take but I think having a blank would be pretty cool

[burnt raven]

They are busy updating VT2 to add another class to darktide

[potent iris]

idk, they kinda lack the soul of other archetypes y'know?

[jaunty fiber]

How so?

[void sphinx]

😎

[jaunty fiber]

Wait no

I was mixing up messages

good one

[soft solstice]

Adding another class that’s a new archetype also just adds a ton of work both to release them and to do long term

[jaunty fiber]

Who cares? That's their job

You wanna make a good game, put in the effort.

[wind grotto]

i'm not expecting a new class anytime soon even if there sure is room for some

[jaunty fiber]

Indeed. It's hardly off the table but people are stil bitching about crafting so

[tall torrent]

Crafting still sucks it is what it is

[wind grotto]

crafting is the one thing everyone should still be bitching about

[dreamy elm]

Playing as a blank would be fun, at least I think it would be

[wind grotto]

the fact it has taken them this long to make not ass is hilarious

well I say that, the next update sure could be terrible

[jaunty fiber]

I'm fine with what we have. I can't imagine what a better one for me would be

[tall torrent]

Next major update would be crafting overhaul

[jaunty fiber]

All I see anyone asking for is an item printer

[void sphinx]

I like VT2's crafting and refining system

[wind grotto]

yeah they just made a worse vt2 itemization system

[soft solstice]

You need unique melee and ranged weapons, unique throwables, a new aura, new ult, 3 of each id they have a full tree like everyone else, you need a whole set of cosmetics to unlock now, a set of cosmetics for the penance thing whenever they add a new one, and they need to release a 5th set of cosmetics everytime they update the cosmetic shop, they need to get 3/6 voice actors to record lines, they need to write lines for them, and make interactions with the rest of the class some of which are unique to certain gendered voices, plus needing to get all 21 original actors back to record lines related to the new career

[wind grotto]

to keep people in the game for retention longer

[jaunty fiber]

That's live service gaming for you

[tall torrent]

At the very minimum, if u have a specific tier of a blessing already unlocked, I think you should not be able to roll that blessing under the already unlocked tier

And I think raising 1 extra lock would do a lot

[jaunty fiber]

But I also come from the lootgrinder scene so the RNG aspect of it is kind of what keeps me going

[wind grotto]

I don't think the locks add anything at all when the stats are already bad rng

[jaunty fiber]

Yeah that just sounds like you want to never bother with the loot system ever again at some point

Which is fair, I guess.

But I'd literally stop playing.

[wind grotto]

yes that should be the goal after I put some time in

[soft solstice]

I enjoy playing the game in general but until new content is release, grinding out penances and melk is the main thing keeping me from coming back while I wait

[wind grotto]

I should be able to have a perfect weapon and just have fun playing the content and not have hundreds of hours upgrading and rolling weapons that brick

that is not actually fun

[tall torrent]

It already takes a very long time to collect every blessing at tier 4

[soft solstice]

I have 5 characters at maxed level, and they each pretty much have a good enough roll for me to be happy with to run the stuff I want

[jaunty fiber]

The toys being the chase is just what I like so things not being completely finite like that is fine by me. But I guess I wouldn't complain too much if they went that route.

[void sphinx]

Yeah I probably want to spend maybe5 hours on each character for their end game loot then just play them.

[soft solstice]

I don’t have all tier 4 blessings but most of what I don’t have is stuff I’d never want to run anyway

[jaunty fiber]

I get what you're saying, it's just not a problem for me. I play games that never expect you to ever perfect your gear ever at all. What we have right now is already a bit more loose than I'm used to.

[winter grove]

What's the veteran archetype again? Guy with gun?

[jaunty fiber]

Yeah see this is a more tangible point I can agree on. Make the bad options not bad and having a complete collection is still exciting

[soft solstice]

As nice as the revamped crafting will be, unless they let me tweak the base stats of weapons I don’t mind as much

[jaunty fiber]

Yeah I feel like that kinda has to be a part of it.

[wind grotto]

I assume most people are just hoping they add reds and the reds just have max stats

[soft solstice]

I mean less about some options being bad, which some are, but some I just don’t care about playstyle wise

[jaunty fiber]

Cuz the arbitrary 80% stat cap is obviously a vestige of future plans they just didn't get the chance to act on

[soft solstice]

Like there’s some blessings people consider great that I just don’t care for

[winter grove]

How do I even reliably get reds lol

[wind grotto]

god knows

[jaunty fiber]

There's no system that can account for taste like that. You're always going to have holes in the collection

[void sphinx]

Realistically this doesnt matter but I've just been disappointed having to re-roll / upgrade a new Lasgun to get all 4 perfect rolls of perks and blessings. or at least 2 and then change the others.

It has to be not only the right perk and / or blessing but level 4

both of those is just time-consuming, and not in any fun way.

[wind grotto]

yeah theres just too many ways for a weapon to become bricked

on top of having to get lucky and getting a good base stat one to then brick

[tall torrent]

I think the “stat roll” modifiers should just be deleted lol

[jaunty fiber]

Well the only other game that would be an example to point at for folks that want a hard endpoint to the gear chase is The Division

[wind grotto]

no it's called vermintide 2

[jaunty fiber]

And that's still a massive grind because, like it or not, the retention goal isn't going anywhere. So you're gonna be at it for a good while

I'm not comparing it to VT2, that game doesn't have dedicated servers.

The design principles are fundamentally shifted

And you cant undo that

[soft solstice]

Maybe I don’t mind the current crafting as much mostly because I don’t upgrade brunt weapons hoping for farm t4 blessings, I either steal them from melk or guns the emperor gives

And if I see something with base stats I want, I see if I can use both my rerolls to get it better than what I have

[wind grotto]

and to be clear here I don't think you like need a perfect god weapon for any content

it's just really fucking bad for your gear grind to be as terrible as this one is for just being oh yeah all those rolls you just did, completely worthless

[soft solstice]

The game gave me t4 power cycle without farming so i didn’t need to spend millions of plasteel and spend dozens of hours upgrading weapons to find it, and I wouldn’t have done that anyway

[void sphinx]

Yeah I'm under no impression that I need a god roll, but it just irks me seeing 3/4 that are level 4 blessing / perk but the last one is either not the perk / blessing im looking for or not level 4

[jaunty fiber]

Which is the point

[void sphinx]

🤯

no way...

[jaunty fiber]

I dunno why they opted to make a loot system that runs so completely counter to what is obviously all but a tiny fraction of their playerbase's interest. LIke how shortsighted do you have to be?

[terse idol]

I hate

[wind grotto]

yeah the loot system right now is something so bad it actively drives away new player growth and has since launch, it's really shocking

[thick needle]

Trying to unlock On Overwatch is gonna give me a fucking stroke

[terse idol]

That the best way to get the 7500 self-tougghness healed with VOC

Is to just go to the fart gas modifier

and breath in the fart gas

I'm gonna die

I even had to make the joke with someone IN THE LOBBY

[rigid pilot]

Fart

[terse idol]

I'm out here playing Auric damn

Pushing waves

And then I notice the nurgle butts are farting so I gotta delay the team

[void sphinx]

I just did it passively while doing Auric Maelstrom for "Auric Storm Survivor" penance

[terse idol]

And wait

[jaunty fiber]

I don't imagine it's the best way so much as the most efficient way.

[void sphinx]

got the penance right as I finish Auric Storm Survivor

[jaunty fiber]

Best would be the one that is less of a chore yet still doable.

[thick needle]

I don't have premades to carry me through On Overwatch so idk how I'm ever gonna get this

[wind grotto]

is that the ammo one

[hollow turtle]

Omg. I came back at the right time. The Harakoni wargear. 😄

[thick needle]

It's the "don't get melee hit once" penance

[wind grotto]

oh yeah good luck

shit still just teleports into existence randomly not even from doors

you'll get it eventually is the only advice I can give

[thick needle]

Unfortunately it locks like every fucking achievement for Veteran

[void sphinx]

I did it with randoms I'm a sit in the back kind of vet and I check my surroundings every so often. It's tougher if you're trying to be a frontline vet.

[wind grotto]

look for low intensity whatever the min diff you can do for it is then I guess?

[thick needle]

I'm cornercamping like a shitty CS player and running stealth and there's always some grunt that runs up out of nowhere and wacks me

[wind grotto]

yeah things still just teleport into existence out of sight rarely

it will end your run for the cheevo

there is nothing you can do to stop it

[rigid pilot]

Block also blocks behind, so you should just always have block up

I think you can take 1 melee hit at full toughness (?)

[thick needle]

Block negates it

[rigid pilot]

Really?

[thick needle]

Yep

[wind grotto]

I think if it hits your toughness at all it fails you doesn't it

[rigid pilot]

Didn't used to be like that

[void sphinx]

Oh yeah thanks for reminding me that was part of my strat, anytime I saw a target I switched to my gun, but if I didnt I'd slow walk with my sword to block hits

[wind grotto]

and blocking didn't negate it when i did it lmao

[thick needle]

Whole level 3 mission, can't be hit with a melee attack

[wind grotto]

that makes it so much harder holy shit

[rigid pilot]

Unless you know something I don't 🤔

[thick needle]

Does blocking not count as a hit?

[wind grotto]

It shouldn't

it counts as blocking

get some stam trinkets, some block efficiency on them

[void sphinx]

Not when I did it, I'd like to believe they didn't change it, but I cant test it

[wind grotto]

and uh

be an asshole leech I guess

[radiant chasm]

Blocking doesnt count as being hit no

[wind grotto]

hard to do without friends and not feeling like a dick but blame fatshark

[thick needle]

Alright that should help

[void sphinx]

hitting 90% of your shots was also a fun one

[radiant chasm]

Unless it is a specific block breaking attack like overheads, from maulers/crushers, even the attack that breaks your stam are still blocked

[wind grotto]

it used to be 100%

coward ass game

[void sphinx]

yeah

[thick needle]

That one was easy tbh

I got it first try

[wind grotto]

it wasn't when you couldn't take scavenger off

[thick needle]

oh

no

[void sphinx]

^^^

[radiant chasm]

I recommend stealth and two very quick weapons, because the game has a warning noise for enemy swings out of your vision

[void sphinx]

Yeah I did it when there was no skill tree where you could change auras.

[thick needle]

Yeah I got it an hour ago

[wind grotto]

yeah it's probably super easy if you just grab the other auras

especially since you can miss now

[radiant chasm]

100% sucked even i had to do it post change

[thick needle]

I just brought the zarona and point-blanked a bunch of groaners

[void sphinx]

But man that challenge was painful, forced survivalist aura + not 1 miss

[wind grotto]

I think I used a shotgun back then

[radiant chasm]

The best bet was to use a shotgun cause it was way harder to lose to hit reg

[thick needle]

and then never got any more ammo

[void sphinx]

so sad when your bullet hit a bulwark when you meant to hit the pox walker in front of you.

[wind grotto]

yep

[winter grove]

Use VoC for the On Overwatch penance

[radiant chasm]

That’s why kanty was bis

[winter grove]

You can take toughness damage

[void sphinx]

I wanted to do it wth my trusty lasgun, but I eventually caved and use the revolver

[radiant chasm]

Id imagine voc would work too

But stealth+ less aggro after stealth ends sounds way more reliable

For this specific penance

[plain heart]

ah, great, just wanted to hop into darktide for the first time in a while, checked my talent trees to check that they are OK etc, and when I try to join my friends I just get Error 1005 :<

[rigid pilot]

VOC would be better, even if just because lower cd

[thick needle]

Pffft
Looked up a guide and the first suggestion is just "Have you tried jumping off a ledge"

[rigid pilot]

This exploit no longer works

[thick needle]

aw

[rigid pilot]

F

[thick needle]

The phrasing was just really funny

[void sphinx]

Yeah and it'd be kind of a rude thing to randoms

that sort of thing I'd say do it with friends if it still worked

[thick needle]

"How do I get this achievement"
"Try jumping off a cliff ⛈️ "

[neat stratus]

"How do I get this achievement?"
"⛈️ 😈 ⛈️"

[burnt raven]

My favorite was telling new players that hitting a demon host gave them a achievement

[grand perch]

It should give something if you manage to kill them tbh

[vale ledge]

Yeah or nah

(I dont use Recon Las often enough so I dont know good roll from bad)

[proven prairie]

... what do i do with this

[last parcel]

kill heretics

[topaz lance]

WIth the talent tree, on overwatch should be easy now, right?

Back when there was no VoC or stealth it was a pain, but also doable.

[austere mica]

No idea, I got it accidentally

My guess for a decent build would be a knife and a columnus

[topaz lance]

I remember getting the long bomb penance 2 months after release by randomly throwing grenades into the air 😄

Glad I never had to try much to get that one.

[terse idol]

yeah

I mean as long as you're like

Careful or have a friend that can play as your shadow

It's not that bad

I got it like right near the begining of the game

As part of a glitch where I crashed at the end 😌
And then I helped my friend get it

[grand perch]

I did it on enclavum baross before voc and such was implemented. Since it's arguably the easiest map

Lasgun plus PS iirc

[frank ledge]

Survivalist nerf bad

[topaz lance]

Nerf justified, nerf just clumsy

Same as the buff to exe stance

[fair river]

I wanna be these guys

Got the absolute dawgs in em

Playing auric maelstrom duos is a level of badassery I strive for

[thorn lark]

i did a monstro trio, it was quite tiring

and that was when we had real monstros spawning more than weakened ones

[digital mango]

I would like to request the krieg outfit to get fixed

[vale ledge]

Yet again is this good

[odd sparrow]

Recons are shit in general. But anyway You could change speedload to infernus and reload speed to flak or maniac.

[last parcel]

on the 7, you should take dum dum

it's got a lower fire rate with more direct damage

*than the 6

[terse idol]

the nerf's fine

😌

[austere pine]

the game makes us feel like ammo is a rare resource at the tutorial

but then you spend a full mission shooting and you barely dip below 50%

[shy maple]

nerfs just killing less viable / guns with little ammo reserves

recon las unplayable now

[austere pine]

at least you did before

[austere pine]

not that that mattered

[shy maple]

its still bad

[dreamy spade]

Survivalist hit plasma the most, because you would kill multiple specialists and elites in one shot, which would make up for the low ammo

[shy maple]

idk just an unfun change overall

[odd sparrow]

True plasma deserves the nerf tho

[dreamy spade]

And when you reload on plasma you want a full magazine because you dont want to reload when shit hits the fan

[terse idol]

Uh

[austere pine]

speedload

[terse idol]

No?

The Shock trooper buff

Still makes recon more ammo efficient

This is mooore of a plasma/bolt gun nerf

*saddly it hurts boltgun more 😭

If you play it to mag dump

DMR boltgun is still prooobably better

[dreamy spade]

Theres no point wasting talents on reload time of plasma because it SHOULD be able to last an entire assault

But yeah my build is fucked now

[austere pine]

revolver also seems to hurt, but ive felt the bolter on zealot

[shy maple]

? wheres the shocktroop buff

[terse idol]

I mean frankly, the reload is slow on the pgun, but like, staged reloading exists

Just gotta time your reload anim

[terse idol]

Gotta read the patchnotes

😌

It's not this patch

It was the last

[shy maple]

yeah my bad when i forgot given how many months there are between a patch :^)

[terse idol]

Yeeah

Which is still an appropriate nerf imo

Revolver being one of the stronge weepoons

[austere pine]

not saying its not deserved

[wanton dawn]

It is the reverse actually

[terse idol]

It's een 3 months

That's not

bad

Oh my lord

[austere pine]

only thing revolver was kinda bad at was mowing down hordes but thats.... not the point of it?

[wanton dawn]

Survivalist affect lower tier guns the most cuz they have bad ammo eco to begin with

[terse idol]

oh yeah

[shy maple]

with some guns you might aswell just play zaelot now lul

[terse idol]

It's a noob nerf 😭

[terse idol]

Uh

No?

Damn dude

I cannot agree with anything you're saying

Survivalist is still okay

Like, now we just need to get ammo tins sometimes

And in a balanced team you'll have alot of extra ammo to play with

[austere pine]

which doesnt happen

[terse idol]

Gungryn suffers more frankly

[shy maple]

"balanced team"

[terse idol]

what'cha mean?

There are like

Climax fountains

[wanton dawn]

Good

[terse idol]

That have like ammo tins and ammo bags

[austere pine]

ive opened 30 crates and got plasteel and diamantine

[terse idol]

I've opened

2

At the end of hour glass

and it was like 2 large bags of ammo

1 tin

And the second box was

[shy maple]

its more about it just feeling bad and unnecessary

[wanton dawn]

I don't want others build to rely on my talent tree

[terse idol]

1 ammo bag

1 tin

[austere pine]

"at end" yeah but what tf do you do when you need ammo mid mission you karker

[terse idol]

Uh

I found ammo

Sorry, but

This is the problem with Anecdotes

I was running, 1 psyker 1 ogryn, and myself and another vet

the othe vet had a ciag

The lowest I had was like 90 ammo in my pgun, 10 ammo remaining

And weee found ammo

I just don't think the survivalist nerf hit that hard

Just can't shoot the entire mission, but evne then a ciag will gain mooore ammo

[wanton dawn]

Well, I killed a dh by fall damage yesterday. 1st time in 1k2 hours. Now I expect it to be a common occurence representative of my normal state of gameplay

[shy maple]

its just a dumb unnecessary nerf that serves no further purpose than making the game more tedious

doesnt change much about the difficulty at all

[terse idol]

Uh

[shy maple]

but i guess people needed that kinda balance for a casual co op pve game

[terse idol]

It makes it so you need to think when you need to shoot

*shrug

It manages to hit some weapons that needed a nerf like the pgun, revolver

(sorry boltgun)

Without touching damage values

Pgun suffers less, revolver is abit harder hit

*shrug

[terse idol]

What is this, helldiver's discord?

Smh

This game is a liittle less casual

It's a tide-like

I gotta co-opt this

[shy maple]

its a casual co op pve game in nature wdym lol

[terse idol]

But a tidelike isn't that casual

People aren't casually playing

Auric Damn

[shy maple]

man i swear furry brainrot is real

[terse idol]

Or even Damn Maelstrom

[wanton dawn]

Also ppl say stuff like game got harder but rager nerf is noticiable

[terse idol]

Or auric damn maelstrom

[shy maple]

if you unironically believe that auric maelstroms are "hard" then yeah sorry

[terse idol]

The bulwark buff also hit like the plasma gun

So we're in this strange balancing act where, the plasma gun is like a 🤏 weaker

[wanton dawn]

plasma is again, one of the less concerned gun by this nerf

[terse idol]

(but also the boltgun)

Yeah for sure

[wanton dawn]

Bolter has worse ammo eco and ammo do not go through shield

[terse idol]

It just hit the boltgun for some reason again

[wanton dawn]

plasma can hit bulwark through shield

[terse idol]

Ohh, that's why I was getting a hit marker

[terse idol]

I mean

Again,

We're not the average players in darktide

We're good at the game

It's not casual by any stretch of the imagination

The majority of players I imagine are playing on 4, MYABE 5

And having a mixed time

[wanton dawn]

My current gameplay is dodging mid-game join to not lose either my streak or 30 min of my life

[terse idol]

[agile forge]

Gatekeeping woooooooo

[dreamy spade]

It's only hard because of the lag and the game not letting you switch weapon

[terse idol]

Well okayyy

I mean, if ya want to say that that's fine

Doesn't mean we still don't all have hundreds of hours of practice under our belts

With more or less hours in vermintide

Gee, this game I've played for, for 376 hours plus experience with vermintide sure is easy

[potent iris]

most people who think they're gods gift to the game

aren't

but also the lack of difficulty™️ is largely down to powercreep, so yeah nerfs are needed if you want a challenging game

[frank ledge]

but nerf=bad!

why not buff every enemy!

[potent iris]

why not both

[austere pine]

this is actually fair, though i dont see a way that would make this good without heavily revamping the enemies' behavior

[frank ledge]

touching every single enemy will introduce a lot of changes

which may or may not work individually

let alone in conjuction

[potent iris]

behavioural/AI adjustments are the best way to tweak enemies to be harder without needing to go into bullet sponge territory

but those are also the hardest tweaks to make

[rigid pilot]

A simple rending change will destroy so many builds

[eternal venture]

Player power is probably too high right now in general, but it's not grossly overpowered in most cases

This game has so many knobs to tweak that making even a few changes to enemy hp, some weapon stat or another, etc. could easily throw the whole ecosystem out of balance

Remember when they buffed enemy health in u13

[agile forge]

Exterminatus difficulty now pls

[eternal venture]

and suddenly a lot of weapons lost breakpoints

[bitter turtle]

buff them how

giving them hp is going to ruin people's crafted weapons

[frank ledge]

hasn't stopped fatshark before

RIP Paul

[eternal venture]

paul...

[bitter turtle]

thats why enemy changes are largely confined to

[eternal venture]

gas buffing enemies is a decent start right now

[bitter turtle]

"but what if there were 10 more of them"

[eternal venture]

when it comes to making enemies harder without making them spongier

[potent iris]

every single enemy now has 30% chance to barrel you off the map

fatshark hire me now

[agile forge]

Suits me lmao

[eternal venture]

do the vermintide player thing

difficulty = spawn ten hookrats at once

except now it's trappers

and they're all blessed by nurgle

[frank ledge]

and 8 of them silent spawn because they haven't fixed the engine issue since vt2

[agile forge]

Did somebody call for ten fucking webguns?

[eternal venture]

Gas Bomber spawn noise has some issues right now

Trappers are usually fine for me now

[fair river]

Did somebody call for 15 bulwarks

[eternal venture]

Hookrats are still an issue, though

lol

[bitter turtle]

i honestly have no idea what gas bomber sound cue is

but it doesnt matter too much

idk they just seem like "normal bomber but less of a problem" to me rn

[eternal venture]

silent hooks grabbing you from 20y away because you're the client is very funny

[agile forge]

Buff Bombers right?

[eternal venture]

and awful

[bitter turtle]

since the gas doesnt stun lock you

[eternal venture]

DEFY THIS

[fair river]

Wong video

[agile forge]

Haven't tried yet

[bitter turtle]

so you can actually just walk out lmao

[eternal venture]

They sound like uh

[bitter turtle]

instea dof being staggered constantly on teh way out

[eternal venture]

skaven

[eternal venture]

that's the best way I can describe him lmao

[agile forge]

The gas in Orthus Offensive is pretty brutal, is it just the same?

[eternal venture]

Gas doesn't stagger you, but the cloud is massive

and it's hard to see where it starts and ends

Plus, it forces you to kite enemies out of the gas because it buffs them

[eternal venture]

Yes

But it's less of an issue generally because you have a lot more time to prepare for it coming

And most maps are far more open than the Twins arena

It will pile on corruption pretty quickly if you can't get out, though

[agile forge]

And also OO just goes real fucking hard in general

[frank ledge]

farts

[eternal venture]

Yeah in OO, you get the gas buffing nonstop poxer waves and elites

The gas bombers also have little green glowy dots on them (the Death's Heads bombs)

[frank ledge]

they have ambience gas noises too

[eternal venture]

they seem to spawn less frequently than scab bombers

[frank ledge]

like a globadier when ur close but not as pronounced

[eternal venture]

which is fine, because it'd be awful if 4 could spawn in a row lol

Yeah they make weird gas sounds too

Gasrats did make those cool mechanical wheezing sounds though

and they actually talk if you listen REALLY closely

but you usually can't hear them

and they get Kenny'd (most of their words are just choked gibberish)

[terse idol]

I like hear their voicelines but they don't make alot of sound even when they move compared to a grenadier

Is it.. intended???
It's hard to tell

[eternal venture]

They're a bit quiet sometimes

[terse idol]

I'm starting to get a bead on their voice lines

But their grenade pin pull needs a distinct sound

Like a Crack or something

[white minnow]

yeah it seems like the pin sound is the exact same as the scab

at least it also seems that it takes longer for them to pull the pin on their nade?

at least just eyeballing

[eternal venture]

I think they do, yeah

it's probably because the gas is way more dangerous overall

or well, it does way more things than a scab bomber

[white minnow]

the absolute area on it is quite a threat

and not knowing where the boundaries are if you're inside

[eternal venture]

Denies more area, deals corruption, buffs enemies, etc.

Yeah the cloud is HUGE

and there's no border visual

[wanton dawn]

Finally, my favorite cosplay

BOTS

[grand perch]

Beep boop

Don't forget to act the part. Never run to pick somebody up, always waddle over in a leisurely pace, brandishing your melee weapon while under intense fire

[midnight mortar]

Fatshark trapped in a maze of their own making because they refuse to grant players more agency over their primary interaction with the game's difficulty: the performance of their weapons.

What else is new.

[rigid pilot]

As long as it doesn't reach the DRG state where the new enemies are just ass

[eternal venture]

What, you mean you don't like flying robots, Stingtails, and pox bugs???

[eternal venture]

huh

oh do you mean crafting

what's your argument here

[bitter turtle]

they cant freely adjust enemy hp values without ruining people's weapons

[iron marten]

Imagine they touch bruiser hp, so rashads become rip

I would surely mald, spent way too much making mine, lmao

[eternal venture]

Ahh

Yeah I just misunderstood their statement then lol

tired brain

That's what I was implying earlier with the U13 enemy hp changes

[agile forge]

Tbh that's because combat axe and bromentum design is dogshit

[bitter turtle]

any semi auto gun will have the same problem

suppose they give flamers 100 more hp so 1400->1500

i literally deal something like 1410 damage with my v7 right now to them

[agile forge]

Mostly same problem

That slows you down by 50% which is huge

It slows a Rashad down by like 87.5%

Idk why they had to change bromentum. New one is even stronger when it works, but absolutely worthless if your weapon stats aren't good enough

[hollow warren]

iirc bots have different pants and no gloves. still a solid cosplay. I'd give it a 7/10

[wanton dawn]

You really think I took the time to make a proper accurate cosplay ? I just put whatever fits

[hollow warren]

changed my mind. it's a 1/10

[wanton dawn]

Good

[hollow warren]

[balmy flume]

I have fully embraced the role of an officer with VoC, up to and including using a Laspistol lol

[balmy flume]

Ugh.
Some PUG people.
No, I am not going to pull you out of the net if the trapper isn’t dead, and it isn’t my bloody fault the AI director then immediately spawns a zombie horde with a Crusher before I could kill the Trapper.
grumbles

[bitter turtle]

actually

[midnight mortar]

I'm assuming you made that decision with the knowledge of the speed at which freeing someone from a net is done.

[bitter turtle]

its better to un-net then kill trapper

not the other way around

generally speakign at least

the trapper has a reload time you interrupt if you attack them

and if you interrupt it they can immedaitely net again

s its safer just to un-net, then kill

[midnight mortar]

Because-yeah. In the majority of cases, you have enough time to un-net and then kill the trapper as they stand there reloading.

[bitter turtle]

cause if you accidentally miss or something and then they net you too

plus its just faster to un-net than it is to kill

assuming both are within reach

[balmy flume]

…right, ok.
Will keep that in mind for the future.

[junior needle]

Stripped down has an overwhelmingly massive amount more value than falter, and also doesn't gimp you in other scenarios by making it harder to hit repeat headshots. Which is additionally why it's a trash blessing.

[midnight mortar]

Yeah falter by design counteracts its own purpose. That alone already diminishes its value.

[junior needle]

Even assuming there is a possible use case and it isn't totally useless, being mostly useless still makes it a brick.

Just needs a rework, along with lacerate.

Even infernus on a helbore isn’t totally useless all the time, but it’s still really bad value.

[rigid pilot]

They aren't cursings at least

[somber axle]

People say Recons are bad and I still use them too (ok really just the VId)

Also I got Falter IV earlier on an Emperor's Gift for the Helbores but I also noticed my Mk III was consistently staggering Flak Ragers without Falter tbh

I do want to check vs Crushers and Bulwarks but honestly if a Bulwark is on his back scrambling to stand and not walking shield raised at you, headshot hits should be easier not harder

[bitter turtle]

well

knocked down enemies are actually harder to hit tbh

headshots i mean

their head is usually not pointed at you

[somber axle]

Stripped Down is also just extra funny for synergy with Duck and Dive + Get Back in the Fight for just walking out of danger but my point was that the utility has immense value and for some it is more important than shoving Deathspitter or Fire Frenzy on the CIAG (Dum Dum every time tho)

[bitter turtle]

stripped down is meh

not because the effec tof sprint to avoid bullet is bad

but you know you can already do it without stripped down right

[bitter turtle]

sec

i hav ea video

[somber axle]

wdym you can just run through bullets without Stripped Down

[agile forge]

Note that there are exceptions

[junior needle]

They are objectively very undertuned. People aren't just saying it.

[bitter turtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS1xybCT1_g

there's a mechanic in the game

where if ur sprinting with your camera not facing the gunfire

[junior needle]

Some things are just poorly balanced/designed.

[agile forge]

But yeah, 99% of the time free first

[bitter turtle]

you automatically dodge everything

[agile forge]

But beware the double trapper

[bitter turtle]

so all stripped down really does is

not what its description says

more like

"your sprinting to dodge effect now can activate while facing your camera at gunfire above 50% stamina"

and yes

it works on all gunfire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvVt8vDLt24

[somber axle]

Undertuned yes, bad no. Sometimes I see people talk like the Recons are unusable and I still carry Damnation games with it when my squad goes down and suddenly I have to fight the whole horde, all the flak ragers, crushers and maulers solo then run over to revive all 3 of my team mates after making them watch my clown show of lasers

[bitter turtle]

but tbh you can literally just sprint while facing away from the gunshots like in the vid i showed you first

so its really not all that great

[somber axle]

I had a very funny game last time I played where my Ogryn and 2 zealots went down and died. I had to clutch fighting all those things and at the very end while reviving them I had the dumb moment of realisation that I never used my combat stim

[bitter turtle]

if you want extra survivability i would definitely go hit and run

since it lets you become immune while NOT sprinting

which is a much bigger difference

than just letting you face the camera

[somber axle]

would've saved me so much time and effort LMFAO

it was that carnival arena map

fighting solo in the arena is the best feeling

[junior needle]

If it's undertuned, that means its numbers are comparatively bad. Mind, you are running a very particular juiced setup and using a very particular playstyle to get it to function acceptably for your standards.

While other weapons do not require extreme measures or sometimes any juice at all to function well.

[agile forge]

There is a difference between people who just ignore its limitations, and people who make the effort to work with them

Most recon users are the former lol

[rigid pilot]

Is recon lasgun the thammer of guns

[bitter turtle]

no

becaus eit was never good

[somber axle]

man one day I need to try the thammer

[bitter turtle]

ever

thammer just got powercrept

[rigid pilot]

At least Thammer melts bosses

[junior needle]

Thammers still have a place for one shotting bosses

[agile forge]

Now, recon II is absolutely trash and just a... challenge weapon I guess

[rigid pilot]

It's a fun challenge

[somber axle]

honestly it needs the juice because running her like a CIAG is playing a losing game because she's not one and I think that's where a lot of new recon users struggle and vacuum up ammo tins/packs

[agile forge]

We have other solutions now too, but the Thunder Hammer is still viable

[junior needle]

I know. The reason people say it's bad is because you have to aggressively overcompensate for its baseline weakness in a way not required by other weapons.

[bitter turtle]

ph yeah

btw

about stripped down and sprinting and ghost and all general effects like that

in case you didnt know

[agile forge]

And because most people don't understand that

[bitter turtle]

its very unreliable at proccing recipocrity

if you were using them to do that

[agile forge]

And try to just use it as a generic shooty thing

[bitter turtle]

it only procs off normal shooter enemies (elites dont count) and only at the start of their barrage, not the entire barrage

[somber axle]

CIAGs can sorta just bodyshot most things and watch them fall over. If you're good at keeping your crosshairs on the target's head you benefit way more but the CIAG's damage is so immense that it sorta encourages the average Vet to ignore headshots on anything other than like monstrosities because the TTK bodyshotting vs headshotting the vast majority of specials/elites on a CIAG is minimal

[bitter turtle]

i dont know about that

ciag has very high finesse values

[somber axle]

Recon needs you to actually aim heads consistently to maximize benefit from Headhunter and Shock Trooper

[bitter turtle]

much higher than recon

[agile forge]

Unless you're running the left side toughness talent

[somber axle]

It has very high finesse values yeah

[junior needle]

Ciag does indeed still have really good bodyshot dps, and much higher finesse

[somber axle]

but it has very, very high damage regardless

[rigid pilot]

At least twice as fast

[bitter turtle]

thats less "it encourages you to bodyshot" and more "its so good ppl can ignore it and still do ok"

[rigid pilot]

But half of 0.5s is 0.25s sooo

[agile forge]

If it takes you a moment to line up a head, it might have been faster to just burst the body

[somber axle]

yes you benefit immensely from tapping heads but I really don't think the average CIAG user cares to line up heads that much beyond bosses and crushers

it doesn't need the extra effort

[junior needle]

Even if you aim at the body, the recoil will take you to the head

[somber axle]

you can bodyshot ragers and watch them fall over in a second or two

[rigid pilot]

Just hold down lmb and guide the stream into heads

[agile forge]

E stance baby:D

What's recoil lmao

[rigid pilot]

Burst firing ciag isn't a thing imo

[junior needle]

You don't need to run exe but yes, you can compensate for it with that

[rigid pilot]

Unless you are really going for 75m sniper shots

[agile forge]

It's a fun style difference

[junior needle]

People just full auto things until dead then stop

[agile forge]

VoC is still better probably

[rigid pilot]

VOC is just busted

[agile forge]

But E stance puts your dps to meme level

[rigid pilot]

The pee trifecta

[agile forge]

And I'd rather have that than some boring safety

[somber axle]

tbh I had to make a gif for comparison showing the CIAG with rending/onslaught on a crusher head to show DPS/TTK is comparable to the Recon VId and after not using it for a while I had to take a few tries to get all headshots because the CIAG has a surprising amount of kick to her recoil when you first start firing

[agile forge]

My other builds use VoC already

[somber axle]

but tbh someone who uses the weapon constantly will know that feel and adjust to it

[rigid pilot]

Crusher

[somber axle]

such a big head but I wanted to make sure every shot was lined up on the head for fairness sake

😭

skill issue on my part I know

I wanted to show medium distance engagement because melee range guns are silly

[bitter turtle]

i still think onslaught on recon is probably suboptimal

the best recon player i actually played with does not run it either kek

[rigid pilot]

Ciag also has a bigger mag size

I think

[wanton dawn]

Yeah but recon is suboptimal so its fine

[bitter turtle]

and they were actually good

remember that guy

[somber axle]

it does not

[bitter turtle]

what a champ

[somber axle]

highest possible mag size on the CIAG is 58 with a perfect 80% ammo stat iirc

[rigid pilot]

Doesn't recon have 88 ammo and 2 pershot or smth

[somber axle]

highest possible mag size on the Recon VId with perfect 80% ammo stat is 108

[bitter turtle]

2 per shot is the mk7

[somber axle]

it is 1 per shot

[bitter turtle]

6 doesnt do that

[junior needle]

As I mentioned, carapace testing significantly flattens performance differences

[bitter turtle]

idk about 2

[somber axle]

with shock trooper it can be 0 per shot sometimes

[bitter turtle]

that one sucks anyway

[somber axle]

lemme fetch the gif again

[junior needle]

Due to there being very little difference in modifiers

at least among automatics

[rigid pilot]

I don't think it's 1 per shot ..

[wanton dawn]

Kovine you mean ? From when you were unhappy when we werent looting mat ?

[bitter turtle]

yes

[somber axle]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1046912126746374274/1229154086952112158/sneakyclownreconft.gif?ex=662ea5f2&is=661c30f2&hm=f085c8fb883f3ade7dffd3bb956f4df463f93522c777799442c823dd9b50cb49&

watch ammo counter

[bitter turtle]

every run is a loot run >:(

[somber axle]

1 per shot

[wanton dawn]

Well, for now my run are mostly don't die in auric run

[somber axle]

am I silly for running this set up? yes but Recon has objectively better clip size/number of shots compared to CIAG and with Shock Trooper crit stacking she fires for longer bursts before needing a reload

[junior needle]

I'm sure you can mention that deadshot is frontloading your ammo efficiency without me being there to police your gifs for honesty

[somber axle]

while saving more ammo

yes Soldier 69 is correct

[junior needle]

You should also post your setup and weapon

Because you are running a 6d with +carapace

[bitter turtle]

i acutally wanted to make a mk7 after we played with him

but

took a break

[wanton dawn]

Target down is an insurance and if you take dnd it does not matters for long ranged fight

[bitter turtle]

and now im saving my plas for "crafting update surely"

[somber axle]

this is a very silly set up using Deadshot, three stam curios for +9 stam using the +1 stam node from the top of the tree under Confirmed Kill with Duck and Dive + Focus Target and Target Down for stam efficiency sake to restore stam

[somber axle]

OH YEAH one sec lemme share my silly gun

I need to log into Darktide

[junior needle]

just include them in your testing videos

[untold mulch]

How I wish we were back at P13 (I know you using deadshot)

[somber axle]

I run my +Carapace as my main Recon for Damnation quickplay

[rigid pilot]

If anything it would be more fun than MGIV iLas

[somber axle]

I could benefit more from swapping it to Flak or Maniac but I'm crazy

[bitter turtle]

all to kill crusher about as fast as an HH autogun

jk

[junior needle]

Assuming you are being shot at in a long range fight. Also the 6d blows through your stamina extremely fast.

[somber axle]

that's a good idea and I should save an image of the gun and talent set up to include every time the Recon VId comes up so people can see what all is required to do it

because it's a lot of investment

and it's absolutely not an investment the average player will want to make

[wanton dawn]

I mean, if you arent getting shot is it really long range fight ?

[junior needle]

Took about half of a massively buffed bar for that crusher (despite a ton of damage juice) and it only restored a bit from the stamina talent for ping

[wanton dawn]

Meh, it is crusher. I don't shoot crusher with either ciag or recon

[somber axle]

faster tbh

[untold mulch]

I see the utility/meme use at least

Though crusher I just hit them with my Csword

[junior needle]

HH autoguns don't take onslaught

[rigid pilot]

https://medal.tv/games/warhammer-40000-darktide/clips/1xqWrgC9ojuEAM/spok?invite=cr-MSxtUm8sMTk5OTY0MzA3LA

I have footage of the strongest recon in the history of darktide

[somber axle]

but honestly I'm not running VId because I want the most optimal meta weapon for everything and if I want a gun with literally THE fastest TTK on a Crusher better than Plasma better than Revolver better than HH Autoguns better than CIAG I know exactly what gun does it and it's the Helbore Mk III 1HKO setup

I run VId because it's funny

and she's my fav gun

[untold mulch]

5 crit string was so beautiful

[somber axle]

😌

[junior needle]

Yes, we've noticed

[rigid pilot]

So much ammo

[wanton dawn]

I do have funny ciag video though. Not my best: 3600 dps is reachable

[untold mulch]

Patch13 was silly with the amount of full auto you could spam

it was amazing

then the fun police arrived

[junior needle]

It's a good idea to be upfront with your testing however, and not say things that might mislead people

[wanton dawn]

This one is funnier though

[untold mulch]

btw still surprised CIAG still isn't touched?

like wha

autogun privilege 🗿

[wanton dawn]

I don't think any gun were touched ?

[somber axle]

idk what I might have said to mislead people because afaik nothing I've said has been inaccurate as a representation of the Recon

[rigid pilot]

Oh no, not fun police part 2

[untold mulch]

I mean in months

Recon was nerf gutted in weeks

[shy maple]

ciag is just the most fun autogun

[untold mulch]

CIAG is just thre

[somber axle]

and I always include the disclaimer that you should not do the silly things I do unless you want to suffer LOL

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/49533dd03f3a3b25b260483f38bc9ed4.jpg

i dont think so

[untold mulch]

but looks like fatshark needs to move earth and sky to do a number change

[somber axle]

yeah because Fatshark knew I would return and they feared my power

[grand perch]

i dunno what your graphics settings are but that looks almost cell shaded borderlands style

[bitter turtle]

and before you say i cherrypicked it

https://i.gyazo.com/c4db43255275b14afd0758197b5a8126.jpg

i could have posted higher

[somber axle]

I wasn't going to say cherry picked

Recon does the same thing LOL

[rigid pilot]

Does HH have carapace adm high or smth

[somber axle]

TTK is like 2 seconds yeah?

[untold mulch]

The thing is the same with how much setup though?

[agile forge]

Tbh when I use my CIAG on the Zealot I kinda hate it

[bitter turtle]

no

[agile forge]

I'm spoiled by doing the meme dps builds on veteran and psyker for it

[untold mulch]

doing the same, with one having to bend backwards to reach it, and the other just naturally are different things

[bitter turtle]

its just deadly accurate + innate crit rending

you just fish for crits spamming shots

[rigid pilot]

They need to buff SAP again so I can have a brrrrrt gun on zealot that isn't brautos or ciag

[junior needle]

You tell people it's varyingly good or really good "if you build for it"

[somber axle]

buff Recons and watch me ascend to levels no one will ever catch

[agile forge]

Bolter? But that's more BRRRRRRRT

[junior needle]

Which in reality is "If you aggressively juice this thing and play a very particular way to draw blood from the stone"

[rigid pilot]

Oh yea I do have one cavalcade bolter build

[somber axle]

because honestly it is but meta weapons are S tier at the top

being good doesn't mean being best

[junior needle]

It's not

[rigid pilot]

It's fun for 5 engagements

[somber axle]

being good means you can have fun, win matches and solo carry with it if you have to

[untold mulch]

Ammo efficiency kills the gun for me

[somber axle]

and imo it does all those

[agile forge]

That zealot talent which tightens your spread is amazing

[untold mulch]

Why zealot got it

[digital mango]

If only they could fix the kreig outfit

[junior needle]

You can do that with a bad weapon, none of that has any bearing on objective performance

[agile forge]

We get e stance at least

[untold mulch]

Next fix, the rebreather now visibly sinks into the guardsman chest

[agile forge]

Except we don't get e stance because we get voc usually lmao

[untold mulch]

shame that isn't great

I am infiltrate enjoyer

Press F to fix problems

[somber axle]

which is why I think really every weapon in the game minus the Mk II Recon and the Shredder are fine

every gun has its use and role

they're all pretty good tbh

[junior needle]

No, some things are just worse than others and that's not good

[digital mango]

The back of the great coat is now broken on it am sad

[somber axle]

if someone is struggling with a certain gun its because they're still learning that gun or have the wrong perks/blessings/talent set up for it

or they're running Recon Mk II

[agile forge]

It's better than the general perception of it suggests imo, it works wonders with CIAG in particular

[bitter turtle]

infiltrate is unironically the best ability to carry pug

ngl

[agile forge]

It's just that it sacrifices the other two abilities

[bitter turtle]

voc to save your useless teammates is pointless

[untold mulch]

Is not terrible, but it won't save your ass when you need it, it makes a smooth run, smoother

[bitter turtle]

they still useless

[agile forge]

Exactly

[junior needle]

You're taking a very uh, relaxed view to objective performance differences.

[bitter turtle]

infiltrate to finish objective while they dawdle around

[agile forge]

It's a win more button

[untold mulch]

I have used it hard for that purpose

[agile forge]

But it feels fucking great lmao

[untold mulch]

Someone needs objective doing?

Infiltrate

do it

[bitter turtle]

that just happened

the previous mael

[untold mulch]

someone falls in a terrible position?

Infiltrate - Underthrow grenade - Revive

[somber axle]

that's sorta how game design works tbh and you'll never have a perfect moment where every gun sits on the same tier because every gun appeals to a different playstyle and any playstyle with higher skill floors and much higher skill ceilings will get shoved below weapons that make matches a cakewalk for comparatively little investment or effort

[bitter turtle]

with the 3 vaults

you have to deliver the shit to

[somber axle]

Recons are undertuned for sure

they're fine when someone crazy like me gets one

[agile forge]

And this game isn't so hard that you have to entirely optimise for winrate

[somber axle]

LOL

[bitter turtle]

they were bogged down at the first vautl for a good 3-4 min before i just said fuck it and infiltrate finished all 3 vaults by myself

[wanton dawn]

I value VoC way, way more than infiltrate

[bitter turtle]

[untold mulch]

[bitter turtle]

in a good team its probably better

[junior needle]

That's sorta how game design works for companies that refuse to pick up their trash weapons off the ground

[bitter turtle]

infil is just better for carrying imo is all

hab dreyko is another one

[wanton dawn]

The only reason I will consider infiltrate on my build is called Hestia right now

[bitter turtle]

where u can literally just do the whole thing solo

[somber axle]

name a game that has every gun perfectly balanced Thanos style though

[junior needle]

Take the columnus brauto for example

[somber axle]

that game doesn't exist

[shy maple]

the blizzard philosophy

[bitter turtle]

no matter how bad your team is

old hab dreyko at least

[somber axle]

honestly with infil you can probably still just do even new Hab Dreyko solo

[untold mulch]

Personally, VoC is a no brainer ability, there is no thought to use it (not complaining, is just a reactive ability)

Infiltrate requires a game plan before you pop it

[wanton dawn]

Current hab dreyko is unknown quantity as far as last event goes

[shy maple]

well thing is that some weapons are inherently better cause this is fundamentally a horde shooter

[bitter turtle]

ya idk if you can still do the last levent solo

[junior needle]

There's literally no reason to take the columnus brauto, because it sizably has worse damage and ammo efficiency compared to both other brautos with no real upside, not even a fake "still not worth it" one

[bitter turtle]

i dont fully understand the minigame

[agile forge]

You gotta react fast sometimes

[bitter turtle]

idk how fast you can do it

[shy maple]

so things that are better vs massed enemies usually perform better

[untold mulch]

Mhmm

[bitter turtle]

if you can finish before stealth wears off

[agile forge]

If you want to counter snipers or bursters

[bitter turtle]

old one you can just scan while hidden

[junior needle]

It exists purely as a trap for resources

[bitter turtle]

so it was ez to do it solo

and then just pick up dead teammate constantly

lel

so they can be a distraction

[agile forge]

Or you proactively spam it with full uptime due to CDR lmao

[untold mulch]

Main problem of Infiltrate use

Aggro shift, be very karking careful of nearby allies

[somber axle]

tbh I think Fatshark backed themselves into a corner with the "3 weapon variants per type" standard they started and then began putting objectively trash designs into the game just to keep that going for no reason other than fluffing up the number of different weapons they promised on release

[junior needle]

You do acknowledge that trash weapons exist, but your arbitrary standards relegate that status to only some of them.

[untold mulch]

Though I have done it on purpose and in sync with a friend sometimes

Tell him I am popping infiltrate
He goes defensive
I do what needs to be done

[junior needle]

When in reality there's more

[somber axle]

the design intent behind them is bad but the guns themselves perform fine

[bitter turtle]

i pretty much only use infiltrate to go even deeper in

[agile forge]

The new marks have mostly been good tbf

[bitter turtle]

and the only time i use it to run is when i already went in deep and need to regroup back with team

using it to run away is meme

[untold mulch]

also grenade regen is good for infiltrate because underthrowing nades don't (or didn't dont know now) break stealth, so it gives a lot of space

[rigid pilot]

It's called infiltrate

[wanton dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/peace-disappear-funny-meme-hi-gif-20955855

[agile forge]

Sounds like somebody else's problem lmao

[untold mulch]

Exactly, I mentally use it like I love memeing the sandevistan in Cyberpunk

[junior needle]

Being objectively worse than the competition is not "performing fine". However yes, fatshork did make a mistake doing that and then not doing consistent balance passes or making the weapons interesting.

[somber axle]

oh yes absolutely I really adore the EvisXV, Chainsword XIIIg
some people love the Combat Knife VI, some people love the Power Sword VI
etc.
a lot of the newer ones have been really good

[untold mulch]

Pop infiltrate

get zoomies

get in enemy backline

fire

[somber axle]

but man some of the older weapon designs are like

[agile forge]

New shovels <3

[untold mulch]

[somber axle]

what was the plan

LOL

[bitter turtle]

the only build i still take voc on is v7 because its too strapped for points to take infil

[somber axle]

poor weapon design for a variant because they ran out of ideas I guess

[bitter turtle]

😔

[untold mulch]

They sadly take 3 months to change a + to a -

Is amazing this fucking company

[junior needle]

Game design is immeasurably complex, please understand.

[untold mulch]

fr fr

they had to search someone who knew how to read, and another that knew how to type

[somber axle]

honestly people are going to rate weapons as trash or treasure based on their personal skill level and there are absolutely people out there that rank anything below S tier meta weapons like Plasma, Revolver and CIAG as trash because why use anything else you're gimping yourself and your team

[shy maple]

i dislikes the "sniper" weapons in the game

[agile forge]

Same with talents tbh

[somber axle]

what others consider trash in the Recons

I consider treasure

and I will hoard this trashy treasure forever

[shy maple]

i feel like most sniper weapons are inherently badi n this game since its a horde shooter

[bitter turtle]

wdym

[somber axle]

yeah

[agile forge]

A lot of people considered not taking surv aura to be flatout griefing

[bitter turtle]

the revolver is unironically a long range armor piercing sniper rifle basically

[untold mulch]

perfect balance

[shy maple]

yeah to bad that the "sniper" weapons arent

[somber axle]

people say Exe Stance/Marksman's Focus is bad because hitting consistent heads while being aware of positioning is harder than just spamming shots down range and getting slapped over the back of the head by poxwalkers while spamming Voice of Command

[bitter turtle]

like what

v7 is very good

[untold mulch]

I mean

[shy maple]

headhunter guns / lasgun

[dreamy spade]

well this wouldve been good before the update..

[bitter turtle]

HH v7 is good though

and v3, but that is not really a sniper

[agile forge]

Hell yeah. It's a high skill setup

[wanton dawn]

Well, it still is good no ?

[somber axle]

Voice of Command was a mistake imo

[agile forge]

I think it's less likely to get through a game though

[somber axle]

LOL

[untold mulch]

I very much remember

Exec stance use has 2 results

A) poxwalker spawns from the warp behind you

B) Ogryn summoning ritual

[agile forge]

But idk lmao

[wanton dawn]

ppl never mention the agri brauto but it is a fine gun

[untold mulch]

my fav brauto

[bitter turtle]

wdym

its still good

[dreamy spade]

nope it isnt

[bitter turtle]

nothing changed about it

[dreamy spade]

[wanton dawn]

Wym ? you got ff and flak perk.

[untold mulch]

Change the perk

[somber axle]

the average Vet is backpedaling spamming whatever gun they have into shooters across the room while a single poxwalker continues to hit them in the back and they try REALLY hard to ignore it and hope someone else kills that so they don't have to turn and deal with it

[untold mulch]

Fire frenzy is good to my knowledge

[somber axle]

and it's really funny to watch them

[bitter turtle]

get good roll

say its bad

[trim hemlock]

And why is it not good?

[bitter turtle]

what did he mean by this

just so you know

[somber axle]

Vet uses VoC to push a poxwalker away

does not kill poxwalker

[bitter turtle]

there are exactly 6 blessings on brautos to begin with

[rigid pilot]

Controllee gaming

[wanton dawn]

Tbf it is not T4 so it is bin worthy !

[somber axle]

poxwalker gets up and resumes slapping them

[untold mulch]

just change reload speed and MAYBE hit & run

[shy maple]

they should just remove the whole ammo stat and make it baseline

[bitter turtle]

you dont exactly have many choices

[somber axle]

Vet continues trying really hard to ignore that single poxwalker

[dreamy spade]

none of the blessings or perks are max

[bitter turtle]

and fire frenzy is one of the better ones

[shy maple]

dumb stat to gamble on

[somber axle]

imagine popping VoC just to push a single poxwalker

[trim hemlock]

That doesn’t make a weapon trash lol

[somber axle]

just turn around and use melee ffs

[trim hemlock]

Lmao even

[bitter turtle]

yes im sure 1% damage per stack of fire frenzy is going to make a big difference

[untold mulch]

eh, who cares unless you got a better one

at worst in a full auto weapon like this one, for a 5% you are taking one extra shot for a very specific enemy

[agile forge]

So what lmfao

[wanton dawn]

HEY, IT IS A WHOLE FIRE TEAM AURA

TAKE THAT BACK

[untold mulch]

and is a full auto weapon

[bitter turtle]

i bet you also bin BM3 because you lose a whole 2.5% weakpoint dmg

which is literally like 1 dmg

[junior needle]

Uh huh. Well nobody can stop you or anyone else from making arbitrary (and sometimes even silly) observations of power levels, but ultimately the fault lies with fatshark for consistently allowing there to be massive performance gaps in various weapons.

There are some weapons that objectively speaking, are just bad and have no reason to take them over alternatives. Until fatshark handles that, it's best to include a disclaimer about some things so uninformed players don't get roped into spending time/effort on them.

For example, I've talked to people on here who adamantly defended the mk2 recon as being the best variant, using the same reasoning you do for the 6d being "good".

[untold mulch]

you are always overshooting

[bitter turtle]

maybe even less

[untold mulch]

[bitter turtle]

weakspot damage is so meme

[untold mulch]

You got over it?

I remember

[trim hemlock]

Yes, bin it

[bitter turtle]

itme for fire team