veteran-class

[tall torrent]

Since bloodletter makes rev actually usable

[faint beacon]

When I was relatively new I did that combo

It's actually

[bitter turtle]

https://i.gyazo.com/6e96ca65baecbd044a05ced3971657c2.png

[faint beacon]

Okay

[bitter turtle]

unfortunately

[tall torrent]

I’d prob run wrath + bloodletter

[bitter turtle]

wrath is the free one

[faint beacon]

It's not good or bad

[bitter turtle]

lul

[faint beacon]

The Bloodletter actually lets you deal with armored enemies

[bitter turtle]

testing

it can still proc rampage

even without wrath

on poxawlkers

so maybe?

[tall torrent]

It’s bruisers that start to mess up

[faint beacon]

Try on mixed hordes

[junior needle]

on poxes yes, but can't pierce 3 bruisers

[faint beacon]

Bruisers and Scabs

Etc

[junior needle]

without cleave boosts that is

[echo parcel]

I can agree that the recon las (more specifically the mk7) is not competing with the top tier weapons, but a lot of people choose to call it unusable garbage before trying out the weapon properly, which i think the gun is far from it

Is an average player going to get more from a columnus or plasma than recon? Probably. That doesn't mean that the weapon does not have its merits, and people insantly dismissing it are doing it a disservice. It just ticks me the wrong way the amount of people ragging on this gun when there are far worse options you could be taking.

[bitter turtle]

it can on dreg bruisers actually

...eventually

[tall torrent]

But not scab bruiser

3.5 mass

[bitter turtle]

well

if i do

[faint beacon]

I assume it's inconsistent

[bitter turtle]

l1l2l3 h3

it can proc on scab bruisers

[faint beacon]

Like it procs sometimes

[bitter turtle]

and the buff lasts long enough

for l1l2l3

until the next h3

so maybe???

[tall torrent]

It doesn’t

[bitter turtle]

sec let me record

[tall torrent]

You’re huffing copium harder than the avg autopistol enjoyer

[faint beacon]

Lettem cook, let's see if it goes from shit to slightly useable

[tall torrent]

The melee weapons I haven’t done yet for veteran are:

Power sword
Shovel
Combat blade
Chainaxe
Tactical axe

[faint beacon]

Shovels

[tall torrent]

I’m not that familiar with shovels

Ik the funny crusher 1 shot

And that’s about it

Horde clear speed is mid

Boss dmg is miserable

[bitter turtle]

disclaimer

i am not suggesting it is good

[tall torrent]

And they don’t murder elites the fastest

[bitter turtle]

only that it is possible to maintain permanent rampage uptime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKVuuyjs1PA

[faint beacon]

Well from what I've learned mk 3 is heavy focused mk 7 is a hybrid of Mk3 and SI and SI is horde clear

Though do some more research and digging in them

[tall torrent]

Am lazy

I’m just writing based off what I already know

[bitter turtle]

ive used mk3 a lot at least

its just a flexible weapon

jack of all trades master of none shit

[faint beacon]

I've used the mk7 a shit ton

The lighter blue one... I think

[bitter turtle]

except the trade of "unyielding enemies"

its shit at that on e

bulwarks are such a huge pain in the ass

for folding shovel

[faint beacon]

I can back that up

[tall torrent]

Shovel enjoyers when they finally use a good boss dps weapon:

[faint beacon]

Standard issue also casually being able to deny mutant charges by staggering with special attack on their heads

Look I use the shovels cause they're really damn fun

[bitter turtle]

fucking folding attack

does literally less dmg

to a bulwark than a crusher

https://i.gyazo.com/c6f99f81766c2605aed3001e4f329dae.jpg

also did u see vid

@tall torrent

you can maintain rampage

l1l2l3 h3

[faint beacon]

I'm actually fucking crying

[bitter turtle]

i mean it looks still trashy as fuck but you can do it

[faint beacon]

This is so sad

[junior needle]

unusable garbage
That is an exaggeration if you take it literally, but what they're really trying to say is they think it sucks. I agree it's unfair to talk about things you haven't tested (or can't back up objectively), but I've tested all of them in game extensively (for subjective analysis) and with objective measures in the psyk using various dps tests.

They are underperforming, and they're notably on the lowest end in terms of dps/overall killing power compared to others. They do need a buff to compete with iag's more. And not be reliant on talent taxes.

Is an average player going to get more from a columnus or plasma than recon? Probably. That doesn't mean that the weapon does not have its merits, and people insantly dismissing it are doing it a disservice.
The line really doesn't have enough merits to justify its shortcomings, which is the big issue. They have pleasant recoil, but get blown out by IAG's everywhere else. On top of needing multiple talent taxes (shocktrooper, both rending talents if you take a 6d) to compensate for their lacking baseline. While a gray/talentless ciag can pull like 3122 headshot dps on maniacs. Other iag's can pull like 2400 with the same measure.

It just ticks me the wrong way the amount of people ragging on this gun when there are far worse options you could be taking.
There's not many other ranged options that do so poorly on a baseline. The autopistol is the only one that is widely considered to be as bad or worse. Especially if you look at something like the recon 2, which likely has the lowest dps in the game of any ranged weapon.

Remember, most damage boosts are a multiplier of baseline performance. If a gun doing 900 dps and a gun doing 1800 dps get their dps doubled, one of them is going to benefit a lot more.

[faint beacon]

Suppose the trashiness doesn't matter if it actually works, which means it's just barely useable

[junior needle]

That term always leads to semantical arguments

[echo parcel]

Overall I agree, I am hoping one day a small buff is all it takes for people to change their perception of the gun, because right now, the mk7 is considered shotgun/autopistol tier by the community, which is a shame

[bitter turtle]

so trying rampage only vs wrath only vs rampage + wrath on 20 scab bruisers

14 seconds vs 12 seconds vs 9 seconds to

[junior needle]

They need more than a "small" buff if you take a look at their baseline, including the 7a. It doesn't even have the highest potential dps of the line (that's the 6d). The only place they are performing anywhere comparatively to iag's is baseline dps to flak on bodyshots, and that's because flak is the only weak (non carapace) armor type for iag's.

With rending in the mix, iag's outperform them there too.

[bitter turtle]

so yeah wrath only is prob better

if youw atn to run bloodletter

[tall torrent]

Seems like too much effort tbh

[bitter turtle]

wait

[i should test something

sec

[junior needle]

It's important to separate perceptions of performance from actual objective measures. Personal fondness is a hell of a drug.

[bitter turtle]

I

think

l1l2l3 h3 is faster

than jsut light spam

its hard to tell though

on rampage + wrath i mean

for bruisers at least

[echo parcel]

Thats the thing I disagree with, I think that the perception of the gun is so bad, that fatshark is potentially going to overbuff. I think it's a lot closer to power level of other weapons with fixed shock trooper, and it only needs small buffs to bring it in line. The weaker variants (anything thats not the mk7 atm) might need bigger changes to bring them in line, because at the moment in a real game setting, mk7 recon grossly outperforms the other variants.

but at the end of the day, it's a pve game, recon being strong for a patch or 2 could be pretty fun, like it was in the past at one point

[junior needle]

The perception of the guns is only terribly bad on here, where people are more aware of their objective comparative performance (I likely have a lot to do with that because of my videos and pointing it out).

Outside of the discord, you still have people rabidly defending the guns as amazing on the subreddit and getting upvoted for it. Not because they’ve analyzed the guns and came to that conclusion, but because they think it feels nice and ignore everything else.

The 7a also doesn’t outperform the 6d in terms of dps either, which has a sizable advantage in that aspect. Did you test them without taking onslaught on the 6d?

So you can see I'm not bluffing, here's all the recons, gray and with the same talent tree. On the same armor type they're all weakest to.

[echo parcel]

While the 6d outperforms 7 in a raw dps test, the reason I say the 7 is better in a real game scenario is because of the innate cleave it has on trash mobs. This lets you take out priority elites and specials in a horde scenario, which the other variants are unable to do consistently.

The 6d recon is the best if you want single target dps and will obviously outperform every other variant in the psykhanium, but in a real game scenario, you would be sacrificing so much consistency that I think it simply becomes not worth it.

For a real scenario, try putting a line of poxwalkers in front of a trapper, I will guarantee you that the 7 will be able to kill the trapper faster than the 6d, even though the 6 techincally has better single target dps

[junior needle]

It has a slight amount cleave, but only on the flimsiest of targets. You can pierce a single poxwalker and groaner, but you won't be piercing a bruiser. So that's less effective in actuality.

Now put a bunch of bruisers in front of the trapper, or anything larger thickness (a line of ragers for example), and the 6d will reach it faster. The situations vary considerably which muddies the water and doesn't leave a clear answer unfortunately.

[inland canopy]

I prefer accuracy more than spray and pray - its just annoying when a group of gunners pin you down

[junior needle]

All of them are accurate when not suppressed

[inland canopy]

I just prefer using MG VII cuz you point and you know its gonna hit

[junior needle]

mg vii?

[agile reef]

I got this from melk. Is there a blessing I should swap out, or just increse the 3star perks?

[tall torrent]

This is good

Flak + maniac

[junior needle]

If you're comparing the recon 7a and the 6d, both of them are nearly pinpoint accurate when not suppressed

[tall torrent]

7a cleaves through friendly Ogryns therefore 7a is better

[bitter turtle]

if they are friendly then why do they block me

😔

that seems rather rude

[junior needle]

This is a fair point, what hit mass are ogryn teammates?

[tiny summit]

Just to test your reflexes and aim

[tall torrent]

AFAIK helbores can cleave through them and 7a has same cleave as helbores

[junior needle]

It does better on chaffe clearing provided the targets are flimsy though, shooters and light melee chaffe for example.

[bitter turtle]

https://youtu.be/9AKsTeILVf4?t=2

[echo parcel]

After testing, it seems to only NOT BE ABLE to pierce through:
Maulers
Gunners
Crushers and Bulwarks
Mutants
Ragers
Scab Bruisers
Trappers

Every other enemy you can cleave exactly through once, with 0 dmg loss on the second target

[tall torrent]

Cleaving maulers is cap

Mauler has 10 mass

[hollow ibex]

That’s most enemies, at least the ones that really matter…

[junior needle]

Can't pierce through trappers either

[echo parcel]

Correct actually, good catch

[junior needle]

But yeah, that's a lot of big enemies that get in the way

And bruisers are very numerous

I missed it piercing through dreg bruisers

[echo parcel]

Still, being able to cleave through shotgunners and dreg bruisers is pretty big

[junior needle]

Going through 2 shotgunners is ok

Although not exactly autogun levels of cleave it's good for a lasgun

[echo parcel]

In my opinion, this is enough to make it better than the other variants

[junior needle]

Well, the 2 essentially doesn't exist.

So it doesn't have a lot of competition

It has some ok utility with the cleave but

[tall torrent]

Bruisers have really high mass & health for the “cannon fodder” that they are

[hollow ibex]

Gives up so much for some incredibly mediocre cleave

[tall torrent]

I wouldn’t call “cleaving through friendly Ogryns” mediocre

That’s a massive power up in my book

[hollow ibex]

You’re already give up a lot for playing with recon las

[echo parcel]

It "cleaves" through teammates exactly once, ogryn or not

which is another boon

[hollow ibex]

Now on top of that you’re nerfing your dps even further for situational cleave

Idk how the ammo efficiency and damage per compared to the VI so not going to comment on that

[echo parcel]

You call it situational, but take it into game and I promise you, you will use the cleave multiple times per game to kill priority targets

which the other recons simply won't be able to do in a reasonable time frame

[hollow ibex]

I use it for shits and giggles

[junior needle]

You can use it multiple times a game and it can still be situational

[hollow ibex]

And will spray into hordes to justify using that weapon

For its CLEAVE

[tall torrent]

I think being able to cleave teammates is just a really solid boost because you can always hit what’s in front of them and makes bad positioning less of a problem

It’s not the greatest thing ever but it helps the feel aspect a lot

[hollow ibex]

I don’t rate it as highly personally

But sure it’s a nice to have

On some guns

Here it feels like you’re giving up too much

[echo parcel]

I wonder if Deathspitter allows you to get a 2nd cleave once stacked up

[agile forge]

Why is this chat constantly discussing the worst gun class in the game lol

[junior needle]

Before I forget, just to illustrate my point a bit better about lacking dps and still needing a sizable buff. Here's a fully built, and in my opinion well rounded talent setup for the 7a. With 8 stack ping keystone, +elites, and redirect fire. You can compare it to the gray, talentless, and critless performance of a ciag.

[agile forge]

(Besides autopistol)

[junior needle]

DS is not worth the loss of consistent dps from dumdum or crit from HH. Only proccing at 7m~ is really sad as well.

[hollow ibex]

Shiny lasers go pew pew

[tall torrent]

Cuz we want more variety with ranged weapons

[echo parcel]

Shooting mutants just isn't what the gun does well

[hollow ibex]

Yah I want recon to be good

Not just feel good lol

[agile forge]

Stop playing it then so Fatshark will see it's unpopular and buff it

[tall torrent]

Oh I don’t play it

[agile forge]

If everyone uses it anyway they'll be like "oh no problem here then"

[junior needle]

Has nothing to do with mutants, they're a punching bag for dps testing.

[tall torrent]

I’ve been playing laspistol

[echo parcel]

If you aren't oneshotting mutants with melee and instead are magdumping into them with the recon, of course it will feel bad

[junior needle]

As I've mentioned already

[potent iris]

the monkey's paw curls and the 2 becomes the only good one rendering your saved up 7a and 6s irrelevant

[hollow ibex]

Plenty of shitters that’ll keep playing with recon

[junior needle]

The fatshark special

[tall torrent]

Sometimes I run plasma with born leader to play team medic

[potent iris]

but yes that whole weapon family needs help

if it were based on an aug instead of a famas we would never have had this problem

[tall torrent]

AUGs have notorious ammo-feeding problems

[agile forge]

Meanwhile I'm mowing them down in about 0.7s with my CIAG

And my bullshit ex stance, deadshit, MF build

Uh deadshot

[echo parcel]

And I oneshot them with my shovel instead of choosing to waste ammo on them with a weapon that obviously isn't meant to be filling the role of quick mutant disposal

[junior needle]

Don't know how many times I need to say it but

The mutant is entirely unimportant

It's a high health punching bag for maniac dps testing

High HP reduces random variance in testing and some guns gray dps easily exceed the health of other units.

[tall torrent]

Bottom line, buff recon dps

[junior needle]

Just as well it doesn't wobble like ragers either, even if it moves its head (predictably)

[tall torrent]

Now the question is, is it acceptable to abbreviate tactical axe as “TCX”

[agile forge]

I got ammo to spare, friend :)

[potent iris]

this sounds like an airport

[raw steppe]

not for long

soon they'll delete scav aura

and the game will be fun again

[echo parcel]

The recon is weak against maniac damage, I deal 110 to a mutant bodyshot while i deal 134 to a mauler bodyshot, thats literally a 22% diffference in dps

[tall torrent]

Surv prob isn’t going anywhere lol

[agile forge]

If you're E Stance, Mutants matter

[echo parcel]

When you take more than 20% of damage off a weapon, of course its gonna feel bad

[agile forge]

You don't want to have to drop stance to kill them

But 90% run VoC anyway

(Since it is definitely overall stronger)

[tall torrent]

I don’t wanna abbreviate them as Taxe, just looks cursed

[agile forge]

I see VoC more often than Surv aura though which seems perverse

[potent iris]

it's definitely not an ideal nickname lmao

"woah vet tree has a lot of tacitcal axe nodes"

[agile forge]

Surv aura is relatively more powerful than VoC, compared against their alternative choices

[agile forge]

You know what's worse?

Caxe.

[tall torrent]

I abbreviated combat axe as CBX

[agile forge]

It sounds like literally shit

[tall torrent]

And no I’m not changing that

[potent iris]

kicked right in the caxes

[agile forge]

But we call them Rashad or Antax mostly I guess

[potent iris]

yea I just call it a rashad

[tall torrent]

Imagine a whole where I can type CBX2 and people know what I’m talking abt

[junior needle]

I know, IAG's have the benefit of sizably positive multipliers to multiple damage types. Which is another point where recons suffer considerably and are forced to rely on the tree for relief. But even a 100% modifier (it has 85% in that example with rending strikes), full talents, and fully built gun won't bring it to the performance of a gray, talentless, critless iag.

[tall torrent]

[wooden lotus]

infantry autoguns are just braindead for the output they provide yeah

i would genuinely argue that recon lasguns are easier to use because of their recoil but they still don't match up to the power of someone putting down fire with a columnus

[echo parcel]

thats because you are not meant to be shooting mutants with it, and in terms of dealing with other maniac specials, it has more than enough dps to justify using it

[tall torrent]

Autoguns u mean?

[potent iris]

columnus does need a bit o' a nerf tho

[wooden lotus]

yeah

god im stoned

[potent iris]

hi stoned

[wooden lotus]

hi truck

🚚

[potent iris]

proud of u

[wooden lotus]

im gonna be the biggest truck of all when i grow up

[echo parcel]

I can kill more specials per mag with Recon 7 than I can with a columnus

[junior needle]

I'm gonna say it again. Mutants are maniacs. It has nothing to do with explicitly mutant ttk. This is a dps comparison for general dps value.

Just because you think it's good enough for other maniacs, doesn't mean it isn't drastically outperformed by other guns

[agile forge]

CIAG isn't hard if you crouch and ADS at least

And EX Stance helps it a ton too

[wooden lotus]

i mean yeah the recons have better mag efficiency when you're both just blind firing

[agile forge]

It's harder to control on Psyker

[wooden lotus]

burst fire with columnus is efficient enough to where i think the difference between specifically 7 and it starts to matter less

[agile forge]

Vet with CIAG is crazy user friendly

[tall torrent]

Zealot even more so

[wooden lotus]

for the VId it's not even a contest unless you carry infernus

the VId takes so many goddamn shots unless you have shock trooper and fire ticks lmao

it's a good ass weapon when you build for it, which is good because that means it's actually balanced

because columnus isn't

[tall torrent]

Blazing piety just gives u 25% crit chance on Columnus

Veteran needs Deadshot to reach that, zealot can hit it just by doing basically nothing

[wooden lotus]

but that's the exact point

[agile forge]

I'm not talking the DPS, I'm talking effective accuracy

Veteran lands shots easier with a CIAG than the others

[wooden lotus]

^

[tall torrent]

With exe stance yea

[wooden lotus]

blazing piety with columnus crit strings is stupid but realistically you won't evne need it

[agile forge]

Talking from a newb onboarding perspective

And Psyker gets the silly crit boost too from DD and SG

[tall torrent]

I told my friends who just picked up the game to play revolver instead of mk5 IAG

[wooden lotus]

with a standard meta vet build, the iag still eats up bosses pretty quick

though at that point i also just use a power sword if i need a monstrosity back in the dirt asap

[agile forge]

But why do the standard meta when you can be a hilariously unstable death beam

Deadshot, EX Stance, MF

[echo parcel]

We are talking negligible levels of time to kill for other maniacs than mutants here, the Recon shreds through maniacs fast enough for it to be viable, and while the iAG can do it faster, how often is less than 0.1 sec ttk impactful in a real game?

[tall torrent]

I think it’s easier to onboard people with a single quickscope gun than a high recoil death beam when they alr have so much to learn

[agile forge]

Murder the shit out of everything

[agile forge]

You greatly underestimate the difference

[wooden lotus]

it matters when that 0.1 sec is per enemy, even if the difference where that low. not to mention columnus is not headshot reliant

[echo parcel]

If you had perfect aimbot and could lock onto the head of every special, sure, columnus is betterr

[wooden lotus]

i mean that's the thing

[echo parcel]

because the dps actually matters then

[wooden lotus]

you don't need to

[agile forge]

It kinda is headshot reliant though?

It does a hell of a lot more if you do hit the heads

[wooden lotus]

right but that's every weapon in the game

recon lasguns feel like dogshit without headshots

[agile forge]

Untrue

[tall torrent]

It’s not headshot reliant in the sense that it still functions without headshots

[wooden lotus]

columnus is still a decent weapon, if not up there, for crits

[agile forge]

Braced autos don't care

Some weapons have shit weakspot multipliers

[tall torrent]

Headshot reliant guns are like
Helbore lasguns
Headhunter autoguns
Plasma gun to an extent

[wooden lotus]

my point being taht yeah okay it doesnt take rocket science to know headshot good

[agile forge]

CIAG's is very good

[wooden lotus]

i just mean that columnus suffers less from bodyshotting than most other wepaons

especially recon lasguns

[bitter turtle]

graia is really easy to recoil control

[tall torrent]

Graia8 is very underrated

[bitter turtle]

the dps is not far off from ciag

[wooden lotus]

graia is very good

[agile forge]

Graia doesn't exist

Claiming otherwise is heresy

[tall torrent]

I think I’d run it over Columnus all the time if it had the same cleave property as Agripinaa1

[junior needle]

The thing is, with an actual build, you are at the very least doubling your dps on maniacs with an iag compared to the 7a. Likely more but it's hard to easily measure due to health limitations of test dummies. This is much more than a 0.1s difference.

This also applies to other targets, of which the iag's have a substantial dps lead. Including unyielding and flak headshots.

[agile forge]

• • • REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION + + +

[wooden lotus]

i also just kinda hate columnus range

[wary wharf]

Is supercharge IV any good on power sword btw?

[agile forge]

It isn't the meta choice

[tall torrent]

We have autoguns that came from Vraks of all places and we’re in the 42nd millenium

[agile forge]

You want power Cycler 100%

[wooden lotus]

super charge is pretty meh when power cycler or rampage are higher value options

[agile forge]

And then either Bromentum or Sunder

[wooden lotus]

typically both together is preferred

[tall torrent]

Vraks autoguns are like, literal antiques in the 42nd millenium

[echo parcel]

You take more time to react that the target you are shooting at is dead than the time you save by having higher dps

[junior needle]

rampage is old and busted

[wary wharf]

Gotcha, that's assuming Power Cycler IV is the other blessing

Bad rolls today fml

[agile forge]

Even III if you can't get IV

[wooden lotus]

what? lmao

this is why people have the healthbars mod

[junior needle]

What?

[wooden lotus]

so they don't do that

what take is this

[junior needle]

That's a very uh, deflective answer

[wooden lotus]

extremely

[agile forge]

Nope lol

[junior needle]

"Doubling dps doesn't matter because reflexes"

[agile forge]

Yellow outline disappears

= they be dead

[wooden lotus]

you also ignore the fact that you don't need to react anyway if the next enemy is in a huge clump

[agile forge]

Also, the moment they are dead, the dude behind them starts taking shots

CIAG is so versatile and powerful

[echo parcel]

You aren't a robot, as much as some of you would think you are, if you have aimbot like aim and can lock onto every head, sure, the absurdly high dps on specials of the columnus comes in to play

[agile forge]

Sounds like a skill issue

[wooden lotus]

you don't have to lock onto every head

https://streamable.com/4g5btj

[junior needle]

It's not just specials my guy, the iag's have much higher dps on basically everything. Even bodyshot performance.

[wooden lotus]

i wa s stoned in this clip

all i did was just hold down m1 down a chokepoint

[tall torrent]

I hate to be that guy but 2 frags probably would have killed them faster

[agile forge]

Imagine not being in the admech

[junior needle]

That's such a strange answer to justify a massive dps increase somehow not mattering

[wooden lotus]

reaction time my ass lmao

[junior needle]

If you have half the ttk, that still increases your effectiveness substantially regardless of how bad or good your reflexes are

[wooden lotus]

yeah i mean completely fair

[agile forge]

I mean, if you really wanna play a Recon, you do you

[wooden lotus]

i play like ass in general lmao

i accept criticism as it comes

[agile forge]

But it's worse than a CIAG

[wooden lotus]

yeah no one's saying recon is bad, in fact i kinda prefer it with the right blessings because it's more fun

[echo parcel]

I'm saying that with how broken iAGs are right now, dps they provide is overkill in the current game, if every enemy in the game doubled in health next patch, then they dps difference would matter

[wooden lotus]

no it is not lmao

no one gives a shit aobut overkill when everything dies

[tall torrent]

Agripinaa 1 and Graia 8 aren’t broken

And they don’t really overkill things

[agile forge]

Go to a corridor towards the end of Magistrati Oubliette

[wooden lotus]

it still took 2 mags to down like

over a dozen shotgunners

[agile forge]

See the thick clump of enemies at the end of the corridor

[wooden lotus]

a recon lasgun will take more

[agile forge]

Magdump them

[wooden lotus]

i don't know why you're trying to make these many dishonest takes about the columnus. like, read the room, half the people here don't even like it that much because of how oversaturated it is in highe end because of its strength

me included

[agile forge]

I mean I love the vulgar display of power tbh

[echo parcel]

What was dishonest about the columnus that I said?

[junior needle]

The ciag is undoubtedly overtuned, but I wouldn't say that about the other iag's, which still sizably outperform recon dps wise in essentially every metric (other autoguns or even lasguns can get similar or better peformance than them). Just not as easy to do it while gray/talentless.

[tall torrent]

Even if you compare Recon Lasguns with weapons that don’t have very good maniac dmg:

Laspistols have insane finesse dmg and still higher maniac dps on top of built-in suppression immunity, better sights & physically zero recoil

Headhunter autoguns have enough flak dmg & consistency to delete most enemies in a few headshots on top of great ammo economy

[wooden lotus]

the dps difference, the reaction time difference, the headshot difference

you kept moving the goalposts when we kept providing arugments on why it's a braindead, easy, high-dps option that overshadows its competitors in raw output alone

[agile forge]

It's OK to just say "I like recon anyway, it's good enough"

[wooden lotus]

and too much output is literally not a bad or irrelevant thing

[agile forge]

You don't have to pretend it's actually strong

[echo parcel]

And I'm not disagreeing with you

[wooden lotus]

then there is no argument here, yet there is still discourse

[tall torrent]

And you can’t really argue any of these guns are overpowered, they’re balanced with very clear upsides & downsides

[echo parcel]

I'm saying that comparing other weapons to it is disingenious to the discussion

[agile forge]

You are underestimating a lot of the key strengths of CIAG

[wooden lotus]

what is disingenous about it

the reason why columnus is OP is because it's that much better than the other guns, which, relative to the game's difficulty, are actually kinda balanced

maybe OP isn't the right word. overcentralizing?

[junior needle]

Oh yeah, laspistols completely break the "oh well both shit dps and ammo efficiency is the price of having pleasant recoil" argument

[wooden lotus]

either way, the point of any... salient meta conversation is about relativity

to say that being relative about how strong a gun is "disingenuous" is probably the most uninformed statement i've had the displeasure of reading

[tall torrent]

Laspistols not only have zero recoil, they also have built-in suppression immunity

[stable socket]

speaking of OP... has anyone used plasma recently

[tall torrent]

It’s strong, needs cleave nerf on uncharged shots and maybe an ammo usage increase for uncharged shots as well

[echo parcel]

You are comparing the strength of a gun thats is average if not slight weaker to a gun that is overtuned and saying "Look at how much better the gun that is absolutely broken is guys!"

[tall torrent]

I think dmg is fine where it’s at

Messing with dmg breakpoints on this kind of gun is make or break

[wooden lotus]

i mean yes

that is the point

[echo parcel]

like yeah, we already know that it is broken

[wooden lotus]

recon lasguns are balanced and relatively tame

that is the point

[junior needle]

Thing is, weapon options exist as part of an ecosystem and are competing against other options for being taken. This is especially important in the highest tier of difficulty, regardless of opinion whether that difficulty is currently sufficient for everyones taste.

If a weapon has essentially nothing going for it (or not enough going for it), then there's very little reason to take it and doing so can even gimp yourself. And for people who want to enjoy a weapon but are displeased by underperformance, it leaves a sour experience (mine).

[tall torrent]

I’d be ok if they nerfed uncharged shots on plasma to 12 cleave and use 4 ammo instead of 3

[junior needle]

"balanced"

[wary wharf]

Hope the Omnissiah is kind to me

[junior needle]

The insane girth of 465 maniac dps on the mk2 recon begs to differ

[wooden lotus]

got me there

[junior needle]

They're only balanced if you consider nearly the entirety of the gun roster to be severely OP by comparison

[wooden lotus]

fwiw i find them actually quite palatable when they're built towards

are they dogshit without, like, headhunter infernus/dum-dum

oh fuck yeah they are lmao

but they're okay with that and shock trooper, and they're genuinely fun

[echo parcel]

This is just simply where we fundamentally disagree, I'm not saying you are wrong, I just dont see it that way

[tiny summit]

Ramping ammo use on continuous fire or high heat

[wooden lotus]

heat genuinely also needs to matter more on the thing

[tall torrent]

I’d be happy with just a flat +ammo usage on uncharged shots from 3 to 4

[stable socket]

uncharged shots should blow you up at 100% just like psyker

[tall torrent]

Ramping up ammo usage would make it feel bad to play

[tiny summit]

Plasma being safer than psyker peril use feels wrong

[echo parcel]

Nerf uncharged shots bufff charged shots

there is no reason to charge atm

[wooden lotus]

agreed

[tiny summit]

Yep

[tall torrent]

I think

Uncharged
Cleave nerf to 12
Ammo use nerf to 4

Charged
Ammo use buff to 6

Would be pretty fair

No actual dmg changes

[tiny summit]

Pretty much. I think it's dmg should stay, it's the cleave, ammo and lil to no risk.

[junior needle]

Did you mean to respond to me? Because I was responding to someone else.

Also bonus video

Vraks 3 can fuck

[wooden lotus]

vraks 3 underrated as hell tbh

[tall torrent]

Beast of nurgle when a v3 veteran gets to shoot it in the back:

[junior needle]

It is a bit psyk warrior but I was recreating crabs 18k dps

[echo parcel]

Like I've literally just played with people from this discord all running varying vet builds on auric maelstrom, and Mk7 Recon performed consistently near the top, only slightly lagging behind plasma and columnus

[wooden lotus]

mk7 does feel good tbh

[tall torrent]

Ykw at least ur much more reasonable than the guy arguing reciprocity is great value the day before

[wooden lotus]

was it tanner

[tall torrent]

Someone who linked tanner vid, yes

[wooden lotus]

yeah despite my harsh language earlier i do appreciate the continued civility

so i'm sorry for that

[echo parcel]

What if I told you I run reciprocity as well in my recon builds

[tall torrent]

[wooden lotus]

i mean i also like reciprocity on recon builds actually

[tall torrent]

I might be the most biased reciprocity hater in this chat

[bitter turtle]

i was using a HH, not colu 😔

[wooden lotus]

not really wanting to trigger that fight again but im genuinely curious on what you mean by reciprocity being low value

[junior needle]

Well that is nice and all, but that's again subjective individual performance which is prone to many contaminating factors. I've gotten top frag by far on my zealot with a revolver in games with 2 plasma vets competing with me for kills, but that doesn't mean revolver zealot (with only anoint) is a better ranged setup than plasma vet.

[echo parcel]

You're right, I need to try running a good HH again tbh

havent played with one in a while

[junior needle]

The issue is it doesn't stack on gunner/reaper fire, and is also inconsistent for regular shooters. So the value when using your ranged weapon is quite low.

[wooden lotus]

this makes sense

[tall torrent]

If you’re using melee weapons that kill things too fast, you don’t get enough stacks with it to be noticeably useful

Dodge states can’t activate it when getting shot at by elites which really hurts its usability for ranged weapons (and for mass shooters you’d get shot into a beehive before it stacks to full)

It’s only ever solidly useful for knife / tac axe, where tac axes aren’t the greatest for veteran rn, and knife is a very special kind of special (not saying it’s bad, just niche)

For like, a solid 90% of the weapons in this game, CQKZ is the better pick over reciprocity if you want to get to desperado

[junior needle]

It's important to note that subjective performance can be substantially altered. I'm confident that if I took a mk2 recon into a few games that I'd consistently outperform the average randy in auric 5's, simply by virtue of being sweatier than them.

That doesn't mean it's not worst dps gun in the game. That means I'm compensating for it by being better than other people.

[wooden lotus]

a very salient point

[tall torrent]

And this one guy spent like an hour trying to tell me “but 5% crit chance good”when I only ever said it’s niche (which in my book is “think before u take”)

[echo parcel]

Again, the only reason I am arguing the mk7 recon is because it feels like a lot of people parrot the opinions of other people without actually using the gun for themselves, If you used it and found it subpar, that is completely valid, but a lot of people write it off because "Discord said its bad"

[junior needle]

No, it was a guy who posted a tanner video to try and back up his argument though. Ironically the video did nothing to back up his argument. He also repeatedly chose to ignore video evidence from other people showing he was wrong.

He also got a timeout for being a dick, and then got banned after sending me a very unfriendly message afterward.

[wooden lotus]

mhm

[tall torrent]

Also, check out the pinned messages of my veteran talent breakdown document, u might learn a thing or two

Totally not shamelessly self promoting here

[wooden lotus]

wtf

when was this a thing

thank u based content maker

[tall torrent]

This week

I’ve secretly (not yet released) updated it with veteran base stat info and am now working on weapon pages

[echo parcel]

Also, I appreciate everyone who participated in constructive discussion instead of typing 1 sentence zingers to epicly own someone they disagree with

[raw steppe]

better release it soon or next patch will completely invalidate it kek

[wooden lotus]

i will take my blame of this portion of being a little hotheaded

i apologize

[junior needle]

This is totally fair, a lot of people parrot information they hear elsewhere without trying it for themselves. But in this case, there is an inarguable objective basis for the view that the guns (even the 7a, which you like) are notably underperforming to other choices in various metrics.

An argument can be made that the others are overperforming, sure. But a lot of weapons outperform them, including non meta standards. At a certain point they become the odd ones out and it's not that most other guns are too good.

I'm happy to provide videos to backup anything I say, and if I base something on my subjective experience and am wrong (its happened a few times) then I will say I goofed after testing it.

[tall torrent]

I’ve not made much progress on weapon stuff yet, and talent changes are relatively easier to monitor

Only made 3 pages on weapons

Combat axe (CBX)
Devil’s claw (DC)
Chainsword (CS)

Sneak peek at chainswords

[echo parcel]

No worries, you backed up your points instead of resorting to insults, which might be sad, but is not always the norm in this discord

[wooden lotus]

i also admire you genuinely sticking to your guns with grace

[raw steppe]

bloodletter

[tall torrent]

1 shot mauler, u deserve

[raw steppe]

a captain that goes down with his ship

the sinking ship of recon

[tall torrent]

Next update fatshark is going to buff recon finesse to 2.3 and make marksman focus recon great again

[echo parcel]

When they buff it I will be there at the helm of my ghost ship of funny rapid fire las rifle, rising from the depths

[junior needle]

make marksman focus recon great again
That'd require it to have ever been good in the first place.

[tall torrent]

With the power of 26 ammo pickups, any gun can be great

[void rampart]

the mk7 scarred me off using those guns forever until recently

used the mk6 recently and, it was okay, nice change with infernus and something else I forgor but it got work done, still eats up a ton of ammo even at its best though

[junior needle]

Shocktrooper was "fixed" but it still won't be near patch 13 value

[tall torrent]

Oh btw I’m not sure if you guys have heard this line from sefoni before but

[junior needle]

That was it, nothing else

[tall torrent]

She mentions a Magos Biologis in tertium

And wonders if Hadron knows him

What are they cooking

[void rampart]

hopefully we'll know within the next 6 years

[tall torrent]

I hope we’re not far from a content drop

I don’t think they’ll be releasing new archetypes tbh

[junior needle]

4 more recycled variants of what is essentially the same weapon, and a new mission

Such content

[void rampart]

I'd say, 4 months for maybe two new missions

coming from Vermintide experience

[tall torrent]

That’s still better than what we have rn so I’ll take it

[tiny summit]

Heavy shredder pistol

Compact plasma gun

Dogshit power sword that serves no purpose

That's the next weapon drop

[void rampart]

bolt pistol

[junior needle]

Recons buffed, max infernus stacks from 12 to 13

[echo parcel]

Bolter variant that has even worse ammo economy than the previous one

[tiny summit]

2% buff to ADM values

[void rampart]

Imagine a world where Brahms sneaks some Shuriken pistols in Brunt's armoury for us to play with

[tiny summit]

+0.01 finesse multiplier

[void rampart]

[dire olive]

Reduced muzzle flash by 3%

[tough tiger]

what blessings should i get for the mg 12 lasgun?

[tall torrent]

Headhunter + deadly accurate

[tough tiger]

https://tenor.com/view/milly-silly-cat-silly-cat-attack-gif-5583585940249724848

thanks

[junior needle]

Honestly needed, the muzzle flash on them is absurd and needs to be toned down

Can't see shit

[dire olive]

fr

[tiny summit]

Put one of the reflex sights in the recons. Oh god that muzzle flash

What would be the most pre-p13 Exe tree look like?

[fervent quiver]

Which chaxe is better

[tough tiger]

mk12 is easier to use

[radiant chasm]

for vet? mk12

[terse idol]

The Rashad

Mk2

[terse idol]

EASIER? Is it?

Is it just easier to build a mk12?

[radiant chasm]

Not really about easy

Mk4 is simply better when you have stats to back it up

For a general vet mk12 does all you need when you need it, you could maybe get away with mk4 if you went deep into your melee talents

[terse idol]

hmm?
Never heard this sentiment before

With a well enough Mk2, everything is just eeasier

Although the worse roll your mk2 is, the more melee talents you'll need to commit

[radiant chasm]

Mk12 spam lights to bonk horde, use heavies for single target, rev for big boys

Chain axe?

[terse idol]

Oh

[radiant chasm]

What mk2

[terse idol]

My brain

I thought it was

Combat Axe

Not Chain

[radiant chasm]

Chaxe

[terse idol]

I'm a fool!

[radiant chasm]

Not caxe

[tiny summit]

bets on hadron bricking?

[crude ermine]

20 bucks

[tiny summit]

1/3...

[crude ermine]

What do I win

[dusty nacelle]

IT'S SAVEABLE

[junior needle]

99% of gamblers quit right before they hit it big

[tiny summit]

blessing you on your next arknights 10 pull

[crude ermine]

Hell yeah

[tiny summit]

[tall torrent]

3/4 bricked gg

[shadow dagger]

just watched a zealot brick an auric ascension riser after multiple clutches from the rest of the team by sitting in the dropship without the battery like his ass was stuck in wet concrete

[tropic imp]

Love rashad money sink

[wanton dawn]

What kind of TR-TT is this ?

[stiff glacier]

Flak damage and brutal momentum and it will be fine

[paper brook]

Yes

[paper brook]

It's the new Commodore Vesture Bundle

[wanton dawn]

I think you mistake vesture with ship part

[waxen sonnet]

I just wait for my Praetorian Guard..

Give me my Space Zulu era Imperial Guard!

[paper brook]

Looks as scuffed as all their other bundles

[umbral scaffold]

How exactly do I complete the "Long Bomb" penance?

I don't get it...

[trim hemlock]

Throw a grenade for distance long enough that its fuse goes off mid-air

Long hallways/corridors are great for doing it (Logistratum maps have a lot of these)

[winter grove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1046912126746374274/1048425477569785906/long_bomb.mp4?ex=65ebc950&is=65d95450&hm=47a82b2dbf8726a41734fd1fe70f4b460499df5b7a997b532d77b8ebba4bd4ae&

Try doing this but in game

[lyric dock]

The ending sequence of the furnace mission helps as well since there is a long hallway to the elevator and plenty of space to yeet a few grenades (assuming you have some) at the horde coming in

[sinful jacinth]

The big bridge on Vigil Station.

Where horde come at you.

Best spot imo.

Right amount space from one end to the other.

[agile forge]

Just fish for it any time you think you might have a chance

I got it throwing from one end of the room to the other in the finale of, uh

[lyric dock]

You regenerate grenades every 60 seconds. Might as well chuck one and see if you get it

[agile forge]

The one that comes after the bridge of many martyrs

I forget the map name

Enclavum Baross maybe

[tiny summit]

I got mine at the start of hab dreyko

[agile forge]

(but I don't wanna cross the bridge of many martyrs :( )

[lyric dock]

Just ask your local big man to carry you

[agile forge]

Funnily enough they're talking about throwing veterans in ogrynchat atm

[lyric dock]

[winter grove]

Amphitheatre

[lyric dock]

Make it a Pysker about to go pop from Peril and you get yourself a regenerating grenade

[winter grove]

I did it in amphitheatre

[sinful jacinth]

Get a feel for it in the psyckhanium first I would say. From one end to the other.

[umbral scaffold]

Okay... but why do I have to throw it from much further away than that?

[winter grove]

So it fuses without hitting anything

Explodes mid air

That's what Long Bomb wants from you

[umbral scaffold]

No, what I am saying is that I have to stand further away from the target than in the video you posted.

Though I think I got the angle down now.

[agile forge]

Maybe character height?

[umbral scaffold]

Possible, my vet is min height

[lyric dock]

Someone get this vet some growth hormones they need it!

[winter grove]

Same

[winter grove]

All the height went into sheer loose cannon anger towards heretics

[lyric dock]

Might as put some of that into height

[winter grove]

You're a lesser target to enemy gunners

Think about it more strategically

[agile forge]

Easier to hide but harder to pick out elites

In hindsight I would have made my humans all max height and my ogryn minimum

maybe zealot mid

[lyric dock]

I'll take picking out Elites easier over a slightly better chance to hide from gun fire

[agile forge]

on the other hand being the most comically oversized ogryn you can be is kinda fun too

[lyric dock]

With Vet's decent toughness regen and Iron will. Taking a few extra shots isn't gonna matter 9/10 times anyways

[agile forge]

Psyker has to be tall to match the superiority complex imo

A vet should never be afraid of getting shot, it's getting rushed in melee while you're tunnelling which is the problem

getting shot's mostly an issue for ogryn (snipers notwithstanding)

[lyric dock]

Why I have a hellbore. If something gets a bit more...Curious to what I'm doing. Get stabbed

[agile forge]

ES/MF/Deadshot CIAG. I kinda don't really care enough to stop shooting :)

So much efficiency per bullet with all the damage multipliers stacked up to the sky

and it all goes away the moment I put my gun away

I'm gonna have to try the 15-stack MF instead of camoflage one day

[lyric dock]

I tried the CIAG. Never really clicked with me

[agile forge]

CIAG gets the stacks really easy

[agile forge]

Just gotta get a handle on the recoil

If you have to fire bursts it's a bit mid

if you can spray full auto and still hit heads consistently it's god-emperor tier

[lyric dock]

Maybe that's my issue I do short control bursts over just letting it all out

[agile forge]

it's got no cleave value so you have to simulate it by just killing everything very rapidly

like do short bursts if it's a wide target range

but if it's a corridor then dakka dakka dakka

[lyric dock]

Fair, but at the same time. I like having the ability to shoot through the Ogryn that decide they want to be a window

[agile forge]

That... is an issue, true.

especially with MF

I don't wanna move :(

(but if you're tagging heads you still can)

Like I even crouch to make the recoil as friendly as possible

I think ES and MF were made for this gun

[lyric dock]

I never actually touched MF at all

[agile forge]

The more I play it the more I love it

it feels like disrupt destiny/SG psyker

but more stable

less good vs bosses, more good vs everything else

gonna log in and screencap my build for you

I use 1 +3 stamina curio for it, kinda feel like I wish I'd had another or some stamina regen too

but it's a WIP

[lyric dock]

I tend to run 1 +3 stam on Vet because Dead shot

And having that extra stamina is always nice

[agile forge]

I got a bad CIAG too lol but so long as it has dum dum you're fine

and good stopping power

more important than damage even

It is hilariously unstable

[lyric dock]

This is what I from a random Emperor's gift....Stopping power sucks ass

[agile forge]

Your defense is to kill everything before it gets to you

You can mow down mutants faster with this than with the PS6

even with the melee vulnerability they have

[lyric dock]

The best CC is a dead enemy

[agile forge]

Only time you get your melee out is when they're already swinging at you

and even then if you can you dodge backwards and shoot them tbh

and I guess it's better to use the PS6 can opener on crushers than shooting them tbf

(but shooting them isn't even that bad with this)

[lyric dock]

The only time I really use my melee is if there is a big horde and I can't stab them all to death wtih the hellsbore

[agile forge]

Wanna try hellbore next

[lyric dock]

It's a fun weapon

It's my Go to weapon if I don't know what to run in random group

The build I generally do. I may move some points around one of these days

[agile forge]

pretty close to a plasma build really

[lyric dock]

And the hellbore mk 2 I run.

MK 2 charges up so fast naturally you don't really need onslaught for it

[junior needle]

Ciag has the highest automatic dps in the game currently, even a "bad" one is still way ahead of most of the roster

[agile forge]

Stopping Power multiplier has a pretty wide range though

But still

(I mean much wider than damage, you can almost treat damage as a dump stat on it lol)

[junior needle]

You should try to maximize your performance anyway

[agile forge]

But mine doesn't even have double damage blessings

I have friggin Stripped Down

[junior needle]

Don't treat damage as a dump stat though, because it affects your baseline, which also in turn affects your multipliers

Or rather what you get at the end after it gets multiplied

[agile forge]

Stopping Power also only applies to a limited number of enemy types

But very important ones

It's just the range on stopping power is much much wider than on damage

[slow spade]

Ignore damage, stack suppression

Sponsored by Nurgle

[agile forge]

If it's between a damage 80 SP 60 or a damage 60 SP 80, take the second one

Ideally you have damage stability and SP all at 80 ofc but yeah

Not really sure how important stability is with ES

Might be less relevant

Helps on psyker a lot though

[serene bough]

Why are people suggesting damage is a dump stat

Where has this come from

[slow spade]

Because it is. Nurgle told me so 🙏

[agile forge]

Not saying it's dump, just saying it's not as important on CIAG than in a lot of other guns

Look at the range on the stat

It's like secondary

[junior needle]

Iag's are quite forgiving

[agile forge]

Or tertiary

[tiny summit]

I use Exe MF with helbore mk2

[junior needle]

Of course they can be with the excess of damage they do to multiple damage types currently

[serene bough]

I mean the difference between 60-80% range wouldn't matter much but I would still want to maximize damage and stopping power bc they're just greater multipliers for other buffs

ciag not mattering is partially bc its overtuned

[junior needle]

Naw, perfectly balanced

[tiny summit]

I think people just want to be contrarian about it but for a lot of weapon dmg scaling between 60-80% is pretty minor.

[serene bough]

Kind of similar to Longshot, I dont know how often it helps me reach breakpoints but I wouldnt say no for extra damage to reduce fall off or just for being at a better range

[agile forge]

I just mean if you aren't fussy

A mid damage CIAG with a high SP is better than the converse

Obviously you can keep rolling for the perfect one

[tiny summit]

Like realistically, a high base rating gun with dmg as it's dump stat at 60 or even 50 isn't gonna hurt. Like a ciag

[agile forge]

But RNG isn't always kind

[agile forge]

It depends though

[junior needle]

It's less of an issue for automatics, but having only 75% damage on my zealots revolver keeps me from crit/headshot one tapping ragers unless they get very close to me with anoint.

[tiny summit]

But also we have brunts gacha. So if you can get more dmg...why wouldn't you?

[serene bough]

Honestly anything 370 and above can be workable

[agile forge]

It depends on the specific range for each weapon

[tiny summit]

Of course it depends

[serene bough]

Some weapon exceptions like revolver don't fit into that simple rule

[agile forge]

Some weapons have a much broader damage range than others

[slow spade]

Dump stat stopping power 💪

[junior needle]

It'll hurt, just less noticeably by virtue of automatics not being breakpoint reliant.

[serene bough]

Nerf dart bullets

[agile forge]

And some weapons have more discrete breakpoints

[tiny summit]

0 penetration chainsword go brrr

[tiny summit]

It won't hurt. That % difference didn't make or break anyone's runs

[junior needle]

Just because it doesn't outright lose you the game doesn't mean it doesn't negatively affect you, which is what I'm trying to say.

[serene bough]

And see, we could theoretically test all the weapons break points and stat distributions to find out which guns it matters the most for and which it doesn't at various ranges and on various enemies. But that's a lot of labor, and it's just safer to assume more SP and damage is better than less

[tiny summit]

It's the perspective of being a dedicated player and knowing what you CAN get that shifts you to not bothering with unoptimal stat lines

[serene bough]

That's kind of a tangent to your point kali, I know you're not suggesting damage isn't necessary

[agile forge]

It's also, when is it worth it to keep grinding the same weapon, and when can you shift focus to trying to make something else too

[tiny summit]

And you're not "hurting", it's simply not as optimal. It doesn't "hurt".

[agile forge]

That's the only point I'm trying to make really

[serene bough]

Yes I understand

It makes sense

[agile forge]

if you're having to make a compromise because Hadron is a dickhead

Favour SP over damage

but if you do have the resources and the will

get both

[serene bough]

But im so far into the game that I'm swimming in resources I don't spend, so I don't even think about investment anymore

Silly me

[hoary horizon]

Gun is gun yes? Ulgo not have goodest idea on veteran weapon but. If work then use yes? Ulgo not here long enought to understand condo-station

[junior needle]

If it's degrading my performance to have a 60% damage stat instead of an 80%, I'd describe that as hurting my performance. Even if you'd consider it subtle. Please no semantical arguments, that happens enough with "viable".

[agile forge]

Stats are not bonuses; they are penalties

it's deviation from perfection

(is how I see it)

Semantics mostly but still

[junior needle]

Viable is simultanteously "not absolute shit" and also "good compared to all other weapons" depending on who you ask

[agile forge]

When we think about putting a weapon into a build we have the perfect form of that weapon in mind

[hoary horizon]

Queshion...

[agile forge]

and then we look at the piece of shit that Hadron smugly bestows upon us

[tiny summit]

We are all hunting for minor efficiencies.

[agile forge]

and consider if it's too damaged to be worth it or not

[fluid solstice]

Yes big man

[agile forge]

Unless you try to make a rashad on veteran

in which case you're really hunting for near-perfection lol

[hoary horizon]

What they talkin about?

[tiny summit]

We don't talk about that

[agile forge]

or you run into some bruisers and then have a big sad

[tiny summit]

Yes we do

[agile forge]

Philosophy

[fluid solstice]

Guns, big man. How to make guns shootier

[serene bough]

Which stats matter and by what degree can you decide to lower them for performance

[agile forge]

Philosophy of shooting.

[hoary horizon]

Oohhh

[slow spade]

Indeed, because we should not consider the poor when making builds

[hoary horizon]

Ulgo wisest Ogryn.

[fluid solstice]

You sure are

[agile forge]

That's what I mean though, it's "what kind of deviations from perfection are still within acceptable limits"

[slow spade]

None 😎

[agile forge]

0 stopping power 0 damage CIAG

probably not worth it

[serene bough]

I mean

[agile forge]

79 damage 80 SP

probably worthwhile

[tiny summit]

Grey mk1 helbore w/o Longshot, MF or Elite dmg needs 80 dmg to 1 tap a dreg gunner on left side build. Otherwise it lives with <=1 hp because it says 1400

[serene bough]

Plenty of guns are viable

[hoary horizon]

Gun is not part of build. Gun is what you like. Yes sometimes is part of build. But why care for stats? Use gun you like. Minor upgrade not big upgrade. No need activitily search for better if gun good already

[slow spade]

Yeah I hate that shit

[serene bough]

But there's no reason why you wouldn't want to maximize the stat distribution of said weapon

[agile forge]

Big difference on a kickback that one-shots mutants vs one that doesn't, for example

[slow spade]

My hellbore was 25 damage off lethal before keystones were added

[agile forge]

it generally does matter more on slow firing weapons though

[hoary horizon]

Kickback not 1 shot on high difficulty

[agile forge]

Mine begs to differ :)

[fluid solstice]

I have a simple philosophy on weapons. I take it into the psykanium and monkey around with it until I decide I like it or don't

[hoary horizon]

Ulgo gunlugger. Not use slow fire rate

[agile forge]

not sure what bonuses I need for it to work but it does genuinely kill them in one tap sometimes

[hoary horizon]

Is good phil-or-sophie

[junior needle]

Damage dump advocates when they need a high damage stat to hit important breakpoints

[agile forge]

I think it's a critical weakspot hit without missing any pellets with full bore

but it does work

[digital mango]

This needs fixing

[serene bough]

I just grab the buy until rarity mod and grab good base stats

[fluid solstice]

Thank you big man. We're cut from the same cloth

[serene bough]

Awaiting rescue lmao

[hoary horizon]

Queshion. Why try get better gun? If gun good already why try get better?

Ulgo have Rippabaga for long time. Love ma lil ripper

[serene bough]

Bigger number gooder

[fluid solstice]

Better gun shoot enemy deader

[hoary horizon]

But if number only above other one. Like 2 is bigger than 1

If better by 1 then why change?

[agile forge]

2 is double 1

that's a colossal difference

[hoary horizon]

Weapon love you take care of weapon

Commissar say if you love your weapon like the emprah l9ves you. Then you will win

Something like that

[agile forge]

if we're talking about taking 2 shots to kill a target with a weapon that has to reload after every shot for example, vs taking 1 shot

that's a massive difference in killing power

if we're talking killing an enemy in 9 autogun bullets instead of 10, less big

[hoary horizon]

Agreed. But not many veteran weapon shoot only one time

[agile forge]

The most popular one does

(well doesn't have to be reloaded)

[hoary horizon]

The plasma?

[agile forge]

(but is still a shot-by-shot weapon)

yeah

[hoary horizon]

Like lasgun.

Lasgun shot by shot

[serene bough]

BIGGER GOODER

You must abandon reason and have faith

[hoary horizon]

But what about emotional attackment?

[hoary horizon]

You veteran not shouty.

Ulgo like veterans

Dislike most shouty. Not all only some

[serene bough]

Some vets are pious, but true

Loose cannon best vet

[hoary horizon]

He is funny to Ulgo

[woeful ibex]

God I hope the Scion Skins is out

[umbral garnet]

THE SCIONS CAN FINALLY GET SOME LOVE ASIDE FROM ONE HELMET

[hoary horizon]

What is scion?

[umbral garnet]

Gaurdsmen but badass.

[woeful ibex]

@hoary horizon Stormtroopers

Basically Special Forces for the IG

They get better armor and Weapons

[hoary horizon]

Like kriger? But technology?

[woeful ibex]

Depends?

Because each regiment have their own "Stormtrooper like" troops

Cadians have Kasrkins

[umbral garnet]

The entirety of Krieg just are stormtroopers though.

[woeful ibex]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_Grenadiers

[woeful ibex]

Not all though

[hoary horizon]

Ulgo get scion armor?

[woeful ibex]

The Equivalents are Grenadiers

[woeful ibex]

Not sure

[hoary horizon]

They have Ogryn's?

[agile forge]

So, instead of a 40W flashlight they get a 60W?

[woeful ibex]

Datamine suggest backpacks

[umbral garnet]

Ok, most of them?

[woeful ibex]

yes

[woeful ibex]

its 50/50

[hoary horizon]

[agile forge]

Maybe the emperor does love me

[hoary horizon]

More ammo for Ulgo!

[woeful ibex]

@umbral garnet DKOK have regular troops but their trained better at siege warfare

Grenadiers are trench raiders

[umbral garnet]

Ok, I see. I know more about the Steel Legion anyway since they're my favourite.

[woeful ibex]

Their drip

[umbral garnet]

I just like the bayonet CHAAAAAAARGE of the Death Korps.

[woeful ibex]

Grenadiers usually are the 1st people to charge because they need to secure objectives

THEN regular troops move in

[umbral garnet]

Fuck yeah

[hoary horizon]

Ulgo work with krieger. Not funny lads.

[woeful ibex]

Yes

[umbral garnet]

NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER, ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END

[hoary horizon]

No joke. Only want to die. Was weird time

[umbral garnet]

WE WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS

[slow spade]

For the Krieg experience, full Krieg suit missions should have bombardment during the mission UwU

[umbral garnet]

I still want the krieg outfit.

Missed it in the shop.

I'm just glad I got my Steel Legion one though.

[hoary horizon]

Ulgo share old krieger outfit he wears

[umbral garnet]

Ahh, those yellow jackets.

[umbral garnet]

You're a kind soul, big man.

[hoary horizon]

Thank you boss. Ulgo help lil uns

[magic trout]

Quite good or quite bad?

[sinful jacinth]

What is the perk? Unable to read Spanish or Portuguese.

[trim hemlock]

It’s Maniacs

I don’t know the language, either, but this reads like “demented”, which stands for “insane”, basically

And who else would an insane person be but a maniac

[magic trout]

Maniac

[sinful jacinth]

Then it would be good for horde clear and some none armored encounters.

Don't recommend vs armored.

Penetration is kinda low.

Use gun and clear horde with it.

[magic trout]

Yeah, i was thinking the same 😢

[sinful jacinth]

As vet you be using 90% your gun anyways.

[timid otter]

Maniac is a waste on CS

It 1 shots mutants with heavy rev without maniacs

And the rager 1 BP can either be done with talents or 10% elite

[austere pine]

accidentally queued for damnation with a lvl 15 vet character

i don't understand why the levels unlock so early really

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah, damnation should unlock at level 26 if you ask me

[austere pine]

a lvl 3 character with lvl 3 gear cannot deal with a tier 3 mission

[analog mural]

A lvl3 character can, a new player cannot

[austere pine]

currently lvl 15 and i might be capable of dealing with malice missions

[umbral scaffold]

Malice should unlock at level 8 if you ask me.

(Same time as your first curio slot)

[timid otter]

I think damn on low level is fine

Its more on the player if they cannot handle it rather then the level

The actual reason low levels suck is a lack of experience rather then a lack of power.

[agile forge]

You can do malice at level 1 without being a millstone tbh

[timid otter]

Turns out only having a couple of hours on a class is not good in terms of being a skilled player

[gray finch]

you can do damnation on low lvl but require high knowledge of the game

[agile forge]

If you have played vermintide at least

[slow spade]

Maelstrom should unlock at lvl 1

[gray finch]

true

[timid otter]

Just trick the system

[slow spade]

Lvl 30 friend brings 3 lvl 1s into maelstrom 💪

[gray finch]

oh we back to peak 3k players daily yippi 🙂

[tame lodge]

Taking learn from your failures to a whole new level

[timid otter]

Thats just called a solo match

[slow spade]

Don't worry they have devil claws so they can maybe kill a poxwalker 😎

[gray finch]

veteran got a shovel

[tame lodge]

Good heavies

[echo parcel]

can base shovel still stagger mutants? Might be playable if so

[gray finch]

but good luck with killing 1st monstrasity

bcs you deal 100 dmg per hit

[analog mural]

Kraks say hi

[gray finch]

we talking lvl 1 on maelstrom right now

[analog mural]

Oh I see

[gray finch]

so only option is to waste all your ammo for hope to kill a plague ogryn

[agile forge]

Straight into 1 2 veg

[agile forge]

Push it off a ledge

[gray finch]

or hit it 100 times with shovel or more

[analog mural]

Well plogryn is pretty easy to deal with tbh

[echo parcel]

can you join auric mael if you are below 30?

[gray finch]

if friend give you access

[echo parcel]

through friends list or some other way

[analog mural]

If a lvl30 starts the queue then yes

[echo parcel]

Can the lvl 30 start the queue, leave, then join back with a lvl 1 character?

[analog mural]

Hmm not sure never tried

[echo parcel]

Could be a fun challenge run

[gray finch]

4 lvl 1 character

[agile forge]

Good for a competitive event I guess

See which team gets further

[gray finch]

the psyker for carapes ogryn for survivebility vet for elits/specials and zealot for close range support

and with any monstrum we gotta be together

its is possible tbf

[echo parcel]

I'd actually be down to try it if there were people up for it

[trim hemlock]

I’ve heard/read of people doing that, so probably. Maybe.

[gray finch]

so we need 4 people that 3 of them join in lvl 1 and 1 person who start it with 30 and get back to lvl 1 cahracter

and on lvl 1 it will be so much things so much fun

[austere pine]

psyker can't do much when there's 6 crushers

[echo parcel]

Would be the biggest copium supply shortage for min maxxers if you can beat it while they struggle in normal runs

[gray finch]

i mean no one got any damage on on carapes on lvl 1 expect psyker

and we gotta kill them 1 by 1

[echo parcel]

does lvl 1 zealot charge give armor pierce still?

[gray finch]

i think so

but you got lasgun i think as a weapon

[analog mural]

Yes but you won't get the 2 charges

[gray finch]

and you have to time it

also shooters clear would be really slow

[echo parcel]

no toughness regen from talent tree seems like the hardest part

If you can manage that it should be doable

[agile forge]

Or, run away :)

Crushers are the least maneuverable enemy type

I wonder if you could have the plan to just stun then and then ignore them

like if you had a team that made zero mistakes with dodging etc

never missed a shot or a swing

all that stuff

perfect play

would it be better to just run around the crushers?

[gray finch]

i mean if you got devil claw you can block the overhead

form crushers

[gray finch]

that the tactics

kiling them 1 by 1 and 1 person just juke them

while every one deals with the rest

[analog mural]

I think you can also start off with a Rashad, which is not that bad against cara

[echo parcel]

bb should be able to deal with crushers, right?

and ogryn should be able to stagger to give time

[gray finch]

what weapon the zealot got on the start

was it the axe or devil claw

[agile forge]

I think Rashad and AIAG

[gray finch]

psyker devil claw for sure

[gray finch]

its got the shredder

[analog mural]

Is it always the same start equips?

[gray finch]

as a range i think

[analog mural]

Cause I remember starting with shredder

[agile forge]

I think so, and it's not necessarily the same as in the tutorial

I think everybody gets a shovel in the tutorial

[agile forge]

Yeah, think you're right

[echo parcel]

Wasnt it las pistol for psyker? or am i misremembering

[agile forge]

It's been a long time

[agile forge]

This I remember, yes

[gray finch]

what ogryn got

[agile forge]

funny that we come full circle now

and now the accatran laspistol is one of the psyker top choices

[gray finch]

the shotgun

and i dont remember the melee

[agile forge]

I think shotgun and either a shovel or a mark I club?

[echo parcel]

i think the og club for ogryn as melee

the strike down one

[gray finch]

i mean the ogryn will carry hard agains any monstrum that spawn

its stagger permamently with a slap

only problem with a beast

[analog mural]

Does that work with low base stats though?

And no talents aswell

[tame lodge]

Pretty sure they ignore stagger resistance

[gray finch]

the vet will be so useless only will be for ammo other think he will just not get stagger permamently

[analog mural]

Oh so it's a base feature of the punch to stagger bosses, and not reliant on any bonus impact?

Yeah might be better to go double zealot at lvl1

[gray finch]

ior 2 psyker

for better long range potencial and armour penetration

bcs unlimited ammo

vet will be good to hold the hord with shovel

[analog mural]

Well psykers start with guns though right?

[gray finch]

but ability

brainburst

do the job