Can't get 1:2 anymore. 30sec 20gr in/80gr out.

[worn cypress]

A bit of info:
I got a "La Nueva Era Cuadro" and the grinder is a "Eureka Perfetto".
Vibration pump, so OPV is set to 10bar. Pressure indicator in the group head to verify this.
Got a flow regulator installed. Full open it's 240ml per 30sec.

Before the OPV adjustment and flow kit install. I had 14bar and unknown flow rate. But good shots.
I changed to the flow kit, because the stock mushroom was completely flaking off. (I once forgot it had cleaning agent in it for a long time.)

The problem is. I can not get any good shots anymore sins the flow kit install. I am nearly choking my grinder at its finest setting and my best time so far is, 70gr out, in 30sec. I can't put anymore grounds in the 20gr VST basket. And I am all out of things to try to get back to my 1:2 ratio shots.

[ivory cairn]

Did you make any changes or clean your grinder? Just want to make sure as it’s unlikely with the eureka but possible.

Also if your filling it to the point of the basket being full; then I’d dose down a bit. Could be immediately finding channels.

[worn cypress]

Grinder was doing fine and did nothing to it. Flow control install was the only change i did.

basket is filled in the tests with the normal amount i used to use. And double checked it was the right amount (tested by adding a coin on top of ground and see if it imprints in the puck if put inside the machine. And it made a imprint. Over filling it changed nothing.)

[ivory cairn]

If it leaves an imprint that’s usually a bad sign. You should be dosing until before it leaves an imprint.

[worn cypress]

The inprint is very very gentle. Like you can only just see it. And i looked up. The Euro is a bit thicker then a quarter (about 1mm difference) So that should be more then enough to not leave a imprint if i would do the test with a quarter. I have also tested with more and less grounds. Anyway, just to say, the filling of the basket is definitely not the problem.

30sec 20gr in/80gr out. Checked everything can't get 1:2 anymore

Can't get 1:2 anymore. 30sec 20gr in/80gr out.

[ivory cairn]

Another option can be the coffee; is this a new coffee or new bag?

Or perhaps and older coffee?

[junior herald]

pre-flow kit you were hitting the puck with 14 bar and applying heavy secondary compaction, slowing down flow. now not as much

[worn cypress]

Yes, so i have been told. But then why can't i get a shot like everyone else with fine grounds, 9 bar and normal flow rate? I mean i am nearly grinding the burs against each other and it's still flowing to fast. Havent even gotten a choke when pulling a shot yet.

[junior herald]

Likely the grinder

[worn cypress]

As in, it can not go fine enough? Because i know the Eureka Perfetto isn't the best espresso grinder our there. But all reviews say you can still do it. Just at the beginning of the Turkish setting.

Or as in, the grind disks might be worn out (i got it for about 3-4 year now, only grind coffee with them 1-3x a day).

[junior herald]

Might be very slightly misaligned and throwing off the grind
What kind of beans are you using? Dark and full of CO2 still or something light?

[worn cypress]

Medium roast, 2 weeks after roast is what i buy in the shop. But the bag is not empty till like week 5. So CO² was never a problem.
I did a check before the flow controle install. And i alinged my grinderd a bit better. Was already pretty good with it's alignment. but i just added 1 or 2 pieces of aluminiumfolie and it was perfect aligned. (tested it with the non-perma marker and letting is spin when the burs just touch. And see what's still remaining of the marker)

[ivory cairn]

Could also be false chirp

Some shards in the stuck giving you the impression of burr chirp

[worn cypress]

I forgot to add, i did go to the shop i normally buy my coffee at (they are a shop, cafe, roasters and coffee training). And bought 2 small bags of my normal coffee. I asked them to grind one as they would for there own professional machienes. And the other was left as just beans. Just to compair my grinder vs their setting. (not that i thought this was gone be a magic instant perfect coffee, but it's just to compair).

Their ground coffee was flowing even faster then my grounded coffee. And i mean by a LOT. The coffee i grinded was a lot finer. This made me think the problem is not the grinder. As if it was i would have had a hard time to even come close to their grind size. (also used a berwler to compair the grounds)

This is the flow controle unit i bought. And all i can think is. It has to do something with this. I will install the old mushroom tomorrow and see what the flow on that one is and do some tests. I managed to clean it up so it should be ok for a few more runs at the very least.
https://www.drtradingshop.nl/a-61400728/onderdelen-moderne-e61-groep/brewing-pressure-profiling-control-e61-zetgroep/#description

[wintry crescent]

A few things, the Perfetto from what I can find is the same in grind range as the Specialità, according to Honest Coffee Guides, being near burr chirp is about 200 micron: https://honestcoffeeguide.com/eureka-mignon-specialita-grind-settings/

So yeah, I think the grinder is going more than fine enough unless there is something really wrong, but you re-aligned it at it seems good now, so I have the feeling it's indeed not the grinder that is to blame here.

On the other hand, it seems weird that a different mushroom cap/flow control unit would be the cause of it all since there simply is always the resistance of the puck, you measured about 8ml/s, and the OPV is set to no more than 10 bar (which will likely end up being a little lower at the group) so I feel like this can't be the issue either.

Something completely different and meant as a part to rule out anything else that may be causing it; how are you tamping your grounds? Are you applying full force or tamping more gently. If the latter, I would just tamp hard (without straining yourself) regardless.

Also, to keep it clear for us, with 'can't get 1:2 anymore', do you mean you can't get there if adhering to at least 30 seconds of total shot time? What happens if you go for 1:2 anyway, what shot times are you looking at?

[worn cypress]

Tamping with this (not this one exactly but can't remember the brand atm)
Also tamped manually and same result. Definitely not tamping to soft 🙂

[worn cypress]

With the 1:2 ratio i idd mean 20gr in, 40 out in 30sec.
If i only look at the 1:2 ratio and not at the time. It's like 12 sec shot and extreemly sour.

[worn cypress]

Image of the puck. After i pulled a shot. Nearly at the zero point. Pulled a 1:2 ratio (20gr in 40 out) in 15sec.

Checked my grinder, to see if the burs where aligned, 3x. They are aligned perfectly (did the marker test).

Also installed the old mushroom and set the OPV back to previous bar (13-14bar). Shot came out faster then at 9bar.

So i can't even go back to stock and get my old results anymore. So maybe the grinder burrs are just worn out and it happened to coincide?

[junior herald]

The grounds look a bit coarse to me assuming it’s not just an over sharpened picture

[ivory cairn]

They also shouldn’t be worn out. You could manually spin the lower burr to check the chirp without risking damage

[magic forge]

Yea that looks super coarse

Looks like sand

[worn cypress]

These are some pics of the previous grounds next to a brewler. I did a deep clean and adjusted the burs again. And the zero point did move up a bit.

This is the new zero point and where i am grinding. And there has been no difference. Still get 40gr out in 15sec atm.

[ivory cairn]

Visually still super coarse. This is the eureka with the weird pitch thread right? (Egg you don’t have to turn it multiple times). I wonder if that has something to do with it. I’d try grinding just off chirp to see if you can choke it. Like .5

[junior herald]

Really looking light on fines there
I wonder if you just ended up hyperaligning the burrs and now they’re super unimodal
But jokes aside yeah that’s the problem at first sight: you’re not producing enough fines

[worn cypress]

Yhea i guess that has to be it. Because all machine readouts seem to be in the green.

But you do realise it's always a spend puck right? Just asking as some ppl on other forums etc seem to think it was a pre pulled shot pic :p

[worn cypress]

Ok, i got me the smooothest pieces of foil. Made the burs perfetcly aligned.
https://tenor.com/view/pacha-okay-great-meme-just-perfect-gif-13268829466700541863

I made sure there was nothing in the bur left of old grounds. Did a grind RIGHT there at the shirp. And i got my 1:2 (20 in/ 40 out) in JUST 30sec... HOW THE HELL IS THIS B*TCH NOT CHOKING

https://youtube.com/shorts/JEn4bw7LRHQ?feature=share

[sharp obsidian]

That looks incredibly coarse for "at chirp"

[ivory cairn]

How are you doing the marker test @worn cypress

[worn cypress]

Like this https://youtu.be/jsj_xkZbS60?feature=shared

[worn cypress]

This is coars?

[junior herald]

it doesn't look coarse in that picture but it does in the other one

might just be lacking fines

[magic forge]

Would be interested to actually see a photo of the marker wipes

[worn cypress]

I would show you but i have taken appart and put that grinder back together for like 5 times now in 2 days. So i am gone let it be for now. But trust me. it's like the left side of this picture. Bottom burr as well as top

[magic forge]

But how deep are you wiping off the flats? Just the very very outer <1mm or the entire triangle?

You want that at the most

Rather than

If you're wiping everything youre chirping too hard and it's not accurate

[worn cypress]

I would say half the triangle on the top burr and full on the bottem burr.

[ivory cairn]

At separate times right? (I didn’t have time to watch)

[worn cypress]

What do you mean at sepperate times? The burrs where aligned from the first shot. Only difference is i did a deep clean forthe last shot.

[magic forge]

Are you applying marker to both burrs at once?

[worn cypress]

I align 1 at a time. Only do both once they are both coming up aligned. And they both do come up aligned once i did them both separately

[magic forge]

Well if youre alignment is good and that's as fine as you can grind. As long as it's tamped properly I dont know what else to say

[worn cypress]

Yhea, its a real brain f**k

[wintry crescent]

You did try a grind from the store you get your coffee from, wouldn't it be possible to get another batch to try that is quite a bit finer?

[worn cypress]

Yhea that is the plan. But cash is really tight atm so i am goen buy one next month

[worn cypress]

Small update. Still have the same problem. It's a hit and miss at this point. As i have to grind at near 0 i get a lot of clogs in the grinder. And inconsistency of the shots.

In short, it's better but if some one has the same problem. It is still not fixed so don't ask me how i fixed it XD

[late coral]

Most shops will never ever give you actual espresso grind, but rather something suitable for a pressurized basket, which most home espresso machines rely on these. There is a very valid fear they could cause damage to a machine not designed for a true espresso grind.

[worn cypress]

My shop knows me veryy well and my machiene; They have had it in for repairs a few times. They know that if i ask. Give me espresso grind. They will give me the same that they would use in the their cafe next door. But even if they did not. My grinder as 0 is still not fin enough. But will clog my grinder in a few grinds ever time. Have to blow it out with bellows every grind to get it going a bit longer.