#Struggling to dial anything tasty

93 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

rough ibex
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I figured I could try making a post here rather than passing in other channels. Basically can't really get anything enjoyable. Maybe I just don't like espresso but I had a couple in cafés that I enjoyed so it should be there somewhere.

Setup:

  • grinder: 064s stock (tried with K-plus getting similar results)
  • machine: F58+
  • water: either tap around 70/40 or custom water something like 20/60~80
  • profile: mostly PSPH, sometimes ExDos, but trying to stick to something to improve.
  • filter: cafec abacas cut
  • basket: DEX
  • temperature: mostly 95°C, tried experimenting 99 as well but haven't seen so much difference. Preheated with 3 lights. Usually don't preheat portafilter but haven't felt difference by preheating it.
  • grind size: should be around 180µ to 220µ from lock.
    Usually grind to get 3 to 6 bars of pressure, pulling in 20s max, aiming to around 16s (measured from when I start pushing on the lever)
  • ratio: 1:2.5~1:3 with PSPH, 1:2-1:2.5 with ExDos

My issue: result is very generic, often quite harsh, rarely any florals. Getting sourness sometimes, bitterness always (unless bitter/sour confusion, having doubts some days).
Generally changing coffees yields me pretty much the same result, there's no uniqueness to shots. Basically I'm forcing myself to drink stuff to try not to waste too much. Diluting a bit makes it more bearable, getting a bit more acidity but again not very distinctive.

Anyone with ideas of what I might be missing? Should I go much finer and boomer profile? Just give up?

prisma granite
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What is psph

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Have you just tried a simple 6 bar profile?

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Is the paper filter on top or bottom of the puck.

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If on bottom I suggest removing until you actually enjoy your shot

rough ibex
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Paper on the bottom, screen on top

prisma granite
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I believe it changes the characteristics a lot.

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What beans do you use

rough ibex
rough ibex
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I use only light roasts

prisma granite
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I was trying to go back to basics.

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Because you don't have a baseline of a good shot

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With your gear and beans

rough ibex
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True

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I do 6-7 bars declining pressure ish for my GF lattes but it's cheap coffee that is drowned in milk so not really trying it straight

prisma granite
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Anyhow. This would be my recommendation. But it's just words.

  1. just go finer, go for longer shots in time.
  2. you can grind roughly in the area. Because you have some flex with the flair 58 lever. So you can just keep a 6 bar.
  3. as I was typing this, try your 6-7 bar declining, but stretched out to 1:3
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And not a turbo shot.

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Maybe like 30-40 seconds.

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But I guess it's flexible

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No paper filter

rough ibex
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So longer and slower. And then from there, I can try to adjust to go faster and coarser depending on what I like?

prisma granite
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Yeah. That's my rec. But that's just something to try

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If you like darker coffee, you can do that too

runic token
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My 2¢; try the cheap coffee to you make for you gf. Doesn’t hurt to taste it all

prisma granite
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I agree

prisma granite
narrow merlin
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Try a stable temp with first slower extraction and if that's bitter then play with faster pulls and see if that's better. Also keep in mind not all beans do perfect spro. It's all a matter of taste in the end. Also keep in mind that some beans really benefit from slower extractions and some beans love faster ones so it's not a simple recipe imo.

rough ibex
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Attempt #1 more traditional profile. Medium-light beans. Puck clearly lost integrity halfway through. Even after purging I see dark spots at the edges of the puck. Roastiness is very present but it also has a strong yucky sourness, that becomes worse when diluting.

file.jpg
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Attempt #2, less roastiness, so at least I can detect that, but similarly very harsh sensation in the mouth. Not good either. I want to keep some of that coffee around so will stop there expresser

file_1.jpg
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Attempt #3, a bit coarser, hitting 7 bars max and a bit faster flow, still declining profile. Still same results, some dry spots on the puck, just as disgusting. Getting sick of drinking these so will stop today.

file_2.jpg
narrow merlin
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Are these with the paper filter on the bottom? if yes then try without it. If I'm being honest I steered clear of boomer shots a long time ago and now I just do yeet shots (10-15sec). Keep in mind that the roastiness will go away at a degree by just leaving the beans to rest (hopefully)

prisma granite
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Could also try it as pourover.

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To see a different perspective

rough ibex
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Yeah it's a more classic Brazilian profile, so I'm not expecting full fruit. But hoping to get some chocolate, caramel, not sour bomb

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Will retry without paper when I find motivation

narrow merlin
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Try different beans as well...maybe these are not up to your tastes

rough ibex
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Attempt #4 without paper filter. Was very similar shot times with previous shot, still some dark spots on the puck. But this was a lot more palatable, kinda like classic espresso. Quite bitter but that's probably the green/roast. I'm kinda puzzled now, could the paper be ruining everything 🤔

file_3.jpg
rough ibex
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Tried another coffee that smells fruitier. Wasn't able to keep high pressure with longer shot time, seems to flow faster. Horribly sour again. Again not feeling like I'm making progress, but will keep at it 🤷‍♂️

file_4.jpg
narrow merlin
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Try different beans (even different roast levels)

sullen karma
rough ibex
prisma granite
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What water you using

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I would say the higher kh is probably better for light roast

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So your 20/60 water

bitter sand
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I’m not a lever flair guy. But I will drop that Rotorgeek and I had success at 9bars with 1:2 ratio with this dark roast honey note stuff. Grind size on an Outin Nano and a 9Barista was 1.45 rev on Kinu. Extracts 23-35s. I’ve used 16-18g doses.

Ultimately I’ve found very few beans that like the 1:2 ratio for my tongue.

IMG_9636.jpg
rough ibex
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Still at it but been enjoying some filter cuz troubleshooting is frustrating.

  1. Abaca paper does speed up flow a bit, though not a crazy diff
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  1. Tried another coffee. This one was probably too fine? Took a while to pull, first drop after quite a while, flow didn't really accelerate. But the result was still sour and unpleasant, though it did smell somewhat close to the beans, so that's somewhat of a positive. I guess there was some channelling?
file_5.jpg
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Watched Lance videos and stuff again, based on descriptions it seems the most likely case is I'm underextracting, but grinding that fine doesn't seem to help. Should I try things more like blooming shots instead maybe, to improve contact time thonking

prisma granite
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What water are you using

rough ibex
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It's in the intro post, 20/60 ish. It's very soft bottled water to which I added a bit of bicarb

prisma granite
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Try bumping it to 20/90

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Add another 30 kh of buffer

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Alternatively, if you say it's underextracted

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You can use harder water with same parameters

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So that it'll extract more.

rough ibex
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I thought hardness plays almost no role in extraction, only in flavor presentation

prisma granite
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Well. Since you're struggling. If you can mix water, (or single dose it)

Try 20/90 gh/KH water next time.

And or 80/40 water

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I generally enjoy the 80/40 water style with niche zero or Conical hand grinders and light roasts

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Maybe like 70/30 pulled on a kingrinder p1

15:45 at a 1:3 ratio

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Just two more parameters to try

rough ibex
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Hmm yeah I guess the 064s is more like traditional style than like MPs to I can try to amp up GH a bit

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For ratio yeah I supposed I could try even longer to extract more but hitting the limits of the F58 reservoir 😅 so have to dose less probably but would need to faff with grind size again

prisma granite
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When more active

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So I think you should be able to hit that

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Or do Americano style shots

rough ibex
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Yeah in theory I can do a bit more but the lever is not exactly going to max height because it's hitting the shelf above keknervous 🙈

prisma granite
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New location to pull a shot to try? Lol

rapid vault
sullen karma
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20:60 is super easy, full pull is close to 20:80

rough ibex
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Harder water, did a fast fill then hold to 20s, and pulled at 6 bars peak until 40s ish, 1:3. I think I've gotten to the red zone of the espresso compass (finally?). Bitter, a bit dry. The offensive sourness seems mostly gone.

rough ibex
sullen karma
novel tendon
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hey @rough ibex! what were your results following the change to harder water and what hardness/buffer did you settle on in the end? did you manage to leave that red zone of the espresso compass that you finally reached? sounds a bit like the issues ive been facing

rough ibex
novel tendon
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thats been my issue for years now I think haha. people always suggested to go to the end of the spectrum e.g. very bitter and then go back from there, but when i try it and go back from absolute bitterness, it becomes generic and bland

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its like people are talking about a flavor sweet spot and in my case that sweet spot is generic brown water

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i even swapped my ssp mp burrs for the stock DF64 ones because i thought they were introducing that battery face melting acidity

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but its still there! i pulled a salami kind of shot today, 40g+10+10+10, and in all honesty all of them sucked. the 40gs were sour af, and the other 3 parts were basically bitter water

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anyway sorry for hijacking, wanted to vent a bit haha

rough ibex
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no that's helpful, it means I'm not going to fix my issues by buying MPs expresser

novel tendon
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hahah i thought I'd be brewing turbo shots in 17 seconds with the MPs and that they will taste like in the cafes.

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didnt turn out as planned ehhhh

rough ibex
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I think cafés that do turbos with MPs are pretty hard to come by 👀

novel tendon
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yeah for sure. yesterday i asked a cafe ive been ordering coffee for a while what their yield was, they told me 18g in 135g out. the only word that comes to mind is flabbergasted

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i tried that too though (didnt work)

rough ibex
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oh that's a Caffè crema maybe?

novel tendon
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sypposedly a lungo, dont know what those guys are doing 😂

rough ibex
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a luuuungo maybe

novel tendon
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never seen a 1:8 lungo