#Uneven extraction with Breville Dual Boiler & DF83

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

granite idol
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I've been having this issue off and on for over a year. Here's what happens.

  1. WDT
    2.Self leveling tamper.
  2. Naked portafilter.
  3. Coin test to make sure I have the right amount of coffee.
  4. Adjust for a puck screen.
  5. Shot tends to start on the right side and slowly fills in the rest of the basket.

When I started doing the coin test about a month ago, I was getting much better shots. You could see the shot would start somewhere but the rest would fill in quickly. It doesn't fill in quickly anymore. Starts on the right side a slowly fills in the rest. That's clearly an uneven extraction. I've tried messing with preinfusion. Doesn't seem to make a difference.

I just remembered the razor tool. Might give that a try next time. Could tell me if the puck screen is at the right level.

Puck prep seems to be everyone's suggestion. I can't think of anything that I haven't tried. As I said before, I started doing the coin test about a month ago. That did make a difference but didn't seem to work this morning.

Any suggestions?

knotty sparrow
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Look at water from the shower screen and see if it's coming from one side, it may be a biased shower screen

bright marten
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If you haven't already, you could check the shower screen is not over-tightened. It should still be able to spin (with a bit of resistance) with a finger.

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Also - post up a vid if you can.

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Also the plastic inner screen and shower screen have a certain up/down. Could double check it's the correct way.

bright marten
knotty sparrow
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hi chat

granite idol
granite idol
granite idol
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@Victor I just realized that your suggestions are new ones for me. I may have heard about the over-tightening of the shower screen, but I don't think it was suggested as a solution to my problem. I should know by tomorrow if this works. Thanks!

bright marten
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To be clear, I am guessing! I've not exeprienced the issue you are.

However my troubleshooting approach would be start at the source and work forward from there.

One other thought, when was the last time you deep cleaned your shower screen assembly and portafilter basket? Might be worth ruling that out too.

granite idol
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Just installed this - Stainless Steel Precision Kit Compatible with Double Boiler Breville/Sage. IMS Precision Screen, Stainless Shower Holder, Silicone Gasket. Fits 900 Series, Oracle, Dual Boiler

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There is a difference in extraction. I've gotten slightly better results but I'm still missing something.

drifting storm
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Hey, i saw somone having similar issues on HB a few years back and turn out he just wasnt tightening his PF as tightly as he should have been. Check out this thread and I hope that is you need to fix your issue. https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/uneven-extraction-with-bes920xl-t56607-10.html

Home-Barista.com
Uneven extraction with BES920XL - Page 2

I'm not familiar with the Breville's water dispersion system (the arrangement of ports above the shower screen). But on most machines, dispersion is not symmetrical, and the problem you are having indicates that your are not leaving enough head space for the puck to soak evenly. Try using a lower dose and finer grind, or using a larger basket so...

granite idol
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Replaced the group head gasket and extractions are much better. Shot starts off in the middle and spreads very quickly to the rest of the basket. I still have the new shower screen installed but I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes. I think the new gasket did the trick. Getting consistent shots.

bright marten
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Great to hear you found a solution!

granite idol
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Started using my 1Zpresso X-Pro S hand grinder for espresso. Amazing! This had the biggest impact. Shots start at the edge and quickly fill in the rest of the basket. Extractions are way more even than before. I'm sure the new gasket and shower screen helped, but not as much as switching grinders. Used a DF83 before.

knotty sparrow
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shouldnt the df83 be better?

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or maybe its just not dialed in properly

bright marten
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Not necessarily. We don't know which burrs they have in the DF83.

knotty sparrow
granite idol
granite idol
knotty sparrow
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are they properly alligned?

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the stock italmil burrs are not the best

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ssp burrs would make a huge dif

granite idol
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I did my best to align the burrs. Much better than what they were before alignment.

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Would it be cost effective to try SSP burs in the DF83?

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I'm not so sure it's worth it.

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But it would be nice to have a backup grinder.

knotty sparrow
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but ssp burrs should make a diff

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make sure ur burrs are alligned well first tho before u buy them

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could just be the burrs are badly alligned

bright marten
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I wouldn't suggest throwing money at a problem until you can define what that problem is.

What are you missing / not enjoying about your current espresso shots with the DF83? Was is just how the shots looked from under the portafilter?

knotty sparrow
granite idol
granite idol
abstract jetty
quick mango
knotty sparrow
abstract jetty
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This really sounds like a puck prep issue

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Or machine not being level, yeah. Hand grinder will cover this issue up cause of the fines migration evening things out a bit

knotty sparrow
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sounds like op isnt doing wdt enough and isnt tamping level

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theres probably more grinds on 1 side before tamping

quick mango
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You can also look into grinding slightly coarser.

abstract jetty
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#beginners-corner message

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perfect timing! Read this, better explanation of what I said above

quick mango
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I wouldn't personally worry about how the shot looks like coming out the basket but if it tastes like it has uneven extraction, grinding coarser usually helps.

granite idol
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I should be able to do some testing this weekend. I'll pull some shots with the DF83 and the hand grinder.

abstract jetty
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Upon upping dose, I had to tap the portafilter to get the grounds a little further in the basket before tamping

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And you could tell visibly one side was slightly lower than the other

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And sure enough it pulled more to the lower density side

knotty sparrow
granite idol
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Did a test shot using the DF83. No idea why it does this, but the shot started out on the right side and slowly filled in the left. Clearly an uneven extraction.

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My 1ZPresso X-Pro S fills in the basket almost all at once. No idea why there’s such a big difference between the two grinders.

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Shots from the DF83 taste horrible. Shots from the 1ZPresso are way better. Balanced, flavorful and tasty.

zenith ledge
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before you head into the grinders could you please check or even better send us a video of the shower screen when you're running some water without the pf? my duo temp pro had the water output on the right side hence why i was seeing the water come out faster on the right side when pulling a shot. Now since you're using a puck screen this should be mitigated a bit. Now for the taste part:

  1. You're comparing a conical burr grinder (x pro) to a flat burr grinder which has a different philosophy altogether.
  2. Flat burrs (even the stock italmil) are known to have much more clarity even on medium to dark roasts and can bring up some unwanted tastes.
  3. Your X pro is better suited for more chocolatey and nutty flavours while the Df83 is targeting more clarity hence why many people including me prefer anything but chocolatey and nutty flavours.

Lastly if you have the opportunity try an electric conical grinder like the niche zero

quick mango
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If it's both, consider grinding coarser.

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I will say that you shouldn't use what's coming out of the basket as an indication of anything. It is very misleading. If it tastes like uneven extraction, grind coarser. If it tastes like over extraction, grind coarser.

granite idol
knotty sparrow
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what beans

granite idol
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Doesn't mater what beans I use. Most of the shots from the DF83 are uneven and terrible.

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It doesn't make sense to me why the hand grinder would be better than the DF83.

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I did spend a lot of time trying to align the burrs on the DF83. Maybe I should check them again.

quick mango
granite idol
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That doesn't help any

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No mater what the grind setting it doesn't produce a consistent, tasty shot.

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I can get a decent shot from the hand grinder without too much work.

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Like I was saying, there is a big difference between the two grinders.

knotty sparrow
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Conical burr

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More blended

granite idol
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Could be all of the above but I really have no idea why it's better.

abstract jetty
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That would give you a baseline of what to strive for on the DF83.

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Cuz reading thru this post more kinda just seems like you might enjoy the rounder, sweeter, more balanced profile that a blendy conical gives.

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(which is a-ok btw just sell the df83 and get a niche, or stick to the 1zpresso expresser )

granite idol
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This isn't a case of preferring one over the other. Espresso from the DF83 sucks. The hand grinder in this case is on another planet. The espresso is so much better you can't even compare the two.

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I'm waiting on a Zerno. Crossing fingers the Zerno creates amazing espresso. If it does I'll know for sure the DF83 is the problem.

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It could be that I made a mistake when aligning the burrs on the DF83. At this point I'm having a hard time justifying any more time on it. I would want something at that price point to at least produce a decent cup out of the box.

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I think I made a mistake when I opted not to have the burrs aligned by the DF83 team.

abstract jetty
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So whether it’s puck prep, alignment, or whatever the issue may be - it’s probably not the machine itself.

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That being said, ultimately they’re fussy and you’ve gotta jump through hoops sometimes to make those things perform well.

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That’s why I sold mine expresser

tender flax
# granite idol It could be that I made a mistake when aligning the burrs on the DF83. At this p...

Damien, are you trying to hit the same recipe parameters between the two grinders?
Same dose, yield, time, temperature?

Let us know what recipe/s you’ve been trying. Which leads into this next question..

Sour? Acid? Salty? Astringent? Dry? Bitter? Harsh? Thin? Watery?
Let us know the most prevalent/forward of those descriptors and the next most prevalent.

When you aligned the burrs, did you very slowly turn the collar until you just slightly heard a scratch sound?

Often people go full bore and ‘slam’ the burrs together (exaggerating). Doing that, you don’t see truly how out of alignment they are because they’re forced to rub harder together and thereby make more contact around the circumference.

granite idol
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I should point out that I also have a Eureka Mignon Specialita that gives me similar rusts to the DF83. I should test that again.

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On the DF83 shots on a naked portfilter fill in half a basket. Little bit of an exaggeration but not too far off the mark. I don’t see how anyone can call that close to an even extraction.

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So far my experience trying to adjust grind size etc hasn’t helped at all.

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The hand grinder gives me an even extraction in that the naked basket is filled in at the same time. Shots are very close to being dialed in properly. I normally get slightly sour or bitter shots.

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I have had shots with other beans on the hand grinder that were rich and chocolatey.

abstract jetty
# granite idol I have had shots with other beans on the hand grinder that were rich and chocola...

Okay so this is kinda what I was getting at in an earlier message, that is just what the conical handgrinder profile is typical of. Big flats are often sharp, sour, and unbalanced if you’re not used to them. If you want chocolate, continue using your hand grinder. If you come across light roast beans that have difficulty extracting in traditional spro, the DF83 stock italmils will probably do a great job.

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It is really a wildly different comparison if you AB test them, even dialed to the same exact parameters

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Naked filters lie all the time, it’s not the arbiter of a good vs bad extraction

tender flax
granite idol
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Why do shots from the hand grinder evenly fill in the basket and shots from the DF83 do not? Why are shots from the hand grinder way better than ones from the DF83?

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If this were a grind finer or recipe issue, wouldn’t I have the same issues with the hand grinder?

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This isn’t a case of preferring the hand grinder over the DF83. Shots from the DF83 are horrible. Not even close to being good.

abstract jetty
granite idol
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Ha

abstract jetty
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No but for real, open your mind a lil. Shots being horrible can totally be a grinder issue.

I, and many other people that have tried to give you advice here agree that it doesn’t seem to be the case here.

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Taste preferences are a powerful thing, and without giving us any details or sending videos of what you’re talking about, it just sounds like a case of preference

granite idol
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The grinder has to be the issue. I can clearly see and taste a difference between the two grinders.

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And yes, I really should do a video.

abstract jetty
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What’s your input/output/time for the df83?

What are the same parameters for the hand grinder?

Have you attempted different styles of spro?

Are you using a light, medium, or dark coffee? Each of these will perform differently on different grinders.

granite idol
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Light, dark, medium are all the same on the DF83. Doesn’t matter what the recipe is. Results are inconsistent and bad shots.

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The only reason I know it’s the DF83 is because the hand grinder looks and tastes better.

tender flax
abstract jetty
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Details if you can, there’s so many variables here that anything could be the problem.

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Also yes, please disregard looks of the bottomless

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If you’re confident in distributing and you know your machine is level, uneven fill isn’t an issue.

granite idol
abstract jetty
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How many grams of espresso are you filling the basket with? How many g’s out? Recipe matters a ton here

granite idol
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I’ve given up on the DF83 for now. I’ve only been using the hand grinder to save beans.

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But on the hand grinder I’m doing about 19.3 grams in, 36 out in about 33 seconds

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10 seconds of pre infusion

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My latte was a bit bitter but very close to being good.

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Might shorten the shot next time. Go for something like 35 out.

abstract jetty
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So yeah, that’s a classic “boomer shot”

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Gonna taste good on a conical

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Might taste bad on big flat burrs

granite idol
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I can’t do this kind of dialing in with the DF83. It’s way too inconsistent.

abstract jetty
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My df83 lived in the 22-25 second range at 18/50

granite idol
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Did you get good shots on your DF83?

abstract jetty
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Yep. Good shots with stock, amazing shots on SSP HUs

granite idol
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Nice! Did you have to align the burrs?

abstract jetty
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Did you take the grinder apart and carefully inspect the wave spring and rubber grommets?

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I did not.

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Bone stock

granite idol
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Interesting.

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Well, I’m waiting on a Zerno. Maybe that will tell me something.

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Hoping to have that sooner than later

abstract jetty
# granite idol Interesting.

If you wanna take a crack at it, there’s 2 rubber grommets that hold in the burr carrier. They get flipped upside down very easily and this will cause terrible inconsistency

granite idol
abstract jetty
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They have a thin, sloped bottom, and the top is wider

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Wider part goes up for both sides

granite idol
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Got it. I know what you are talking about.

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I’ll double check next time I decide to use it.

abstract jetty
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Word. Good luck dude

knotty sparrow
knotty sparrow
granite idol
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I haven’t used the Specialita in a long time so I shouldn’t comment.

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I’ll have to try it soon and compare

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Maybe I need to do 3 grinder test.

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Hand vs two electric grinders.

tender flax
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I’m speaking about the grind distribution. The DF is likely* giving more uniform particle size which is more ‘mono-modal’ and the X-Pro is likely* giving a wider distribution of particle size which might look like two plateaus if the particle percentage was graphed out. With a wider distribution you will have a thicker espresso if doing a traditional recipe/style. Being thicker and since it does contain oil, it will stick to the basket better so it will look ‘better’ if comparing to something that isn’t as thick.
No, nothing wrong with having a preference.
Just trying to help troubleshoot the issue; when you say shots from the DF start with around half the basket, is it always the same exact spot?
Always like a half moon? Or just random spots adding up to half?
If it’s consistent, I do wonder what a paper filter on the bottom when using the X-Pro would look like, that would hopefully reduce the body enough to show the basket flow similar to the DF.
Hope those thoughts help you.
Also waiting on my (August) Z1.

knotty sparrow
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Seems like he wants cones

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He needs a key

tender flax
# knotty sparrow He needs a key

I’ve got a Mk1 for my Cone days. Can still get some note separation from it but definitely easier to dial in than the flats. Not as easy as the NZ, but does taste better.

knotty sparrow
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Blended

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Like cone and flat mix

tender flax
knotty sparrow
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Stock dlc burrs