Shots over/underextracted with barely any yield (Breville Bambino Plus) | Espresso Aficionados | Page 1

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:03 PM

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Originally posted on here having trouble with shots being too acidic while I only had a blade grinder to use. Added 3g of sodium bicarbonate to water to try to minimize it in the meantime.
Got KINGrinder K4 a couple weeks ago and so far have had varying results. The yield is almost always half of the original dose even if I try to extend the shot.
Today I got fresh coffee that was roasted about a week ago and here are my results.

First is dose to yield, grind setting/coffee name, result, and time. Coffee is a medium roast.

14.9g > 0g
setting = 55 breakfast blend
machine choked

14.9g > 22g
setting = 57 breakfast blend
under extracted
60 seconds

15 ish g > less than 1g
setting = 56 breakfast blend
over extracted

I think yield may be the largest issue as it is always under any form of 1:2 ratio. Based on my notes it has extracted in something resembling a 1:2 ratio in the past, but since I started using the grinder it hasn't.

This has been confusing me for weeks and there is probably something obvious that I'm missing, but every search for something like this has given me absolutely nothing.
I would be very grateful for literally anything you can provide.

worthy field Mar 28, 2023, 9:27 PM

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blazing horizon Originally posted on here having trouble with shots being too acidic while I onl...

Grind a lot coarser (I don’t know the K4, but like.. 65? To start)

Get 15-45 in 22s from button press.

If you only get 2ml out you can’t say anything about taste

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:30 PM

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worthy field Grind a lot coarser (I don’t know the K4, but like.. 65? To start) Get 15-45 i...

Alr, I originally started at 70 then went to 60, etc etc
but they all tasted very acidic until getting to the point where it chokes the machine or barely extracts

worthy field Mar 28, 2023, 9:32 PM

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blazing horizon Alr, I originally started at 70 then went to 60, etc etc but they all tasted ve...

Good coffee is often a bit acidic

I’d first try to get a base reading at 15in 45 out in ~20-25s from button and then grind finer or coarser to get that in more or less time.

Adjust one variable at a time (grind setting)

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:34 PM

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worthy field Good coffee is often a bit acidic I’d first try to get a base reading at 15in 4...

It was uncomfortably acidic to the point where I immediately wanted to spit it out, thats all.

Any grind setting suggestions to start with?

worthy field Mar 28, 2023, 9:37 PM

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blazing horizon It was uncomfortably acidic to the point where I immediately wanted to spit it o...

Nope. Maybe there’s some temperature setting on the BB+ you could change? I don’t know it.

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:38 PM

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worthy field Nope. Maybe there’s some temperature setting on the BB+ you could change? I don’...

Nope, stays at 200C

worthy field Mar 28, 2023, 9:38 PM

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Okay. Just make sure you always do 15 in 45 out. Then adjust grind setting so it does that faster or slower.

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And to start off with, aim for 25s if you find it acidic

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:39 PM

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Alright thank you.

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:46 PM

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Idk of you're coming here from Reddit but you seem to be caught up on the wildly incorrect assertion that grinding finer will increase your extraction

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So I'd take a guess you came from Reddit 😅

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:50 PM

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Lmaoo, nope have not been on reddit and no I did not believe that since my results have either been skewed to over or under extracted and rarely in between

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:51 PM

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Well don't go there aha

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Just get your grind setting to a reasonable point in the 20-30s range and use yield to dial in your desired taste

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:52 PM

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Got 15g and 25 seconds for a yield of 3g

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:53 PM

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You're doing this wrong

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Don't stop at a specific time

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Stop at a specific yield

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:53 PM

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the other person said to stop at 25s

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so i just tried that to see

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:53 PM

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They're wrong 😅

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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lovely

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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I'm sure you realized 3g is useless

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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obviously

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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Which is why you don't stop based on timing

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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either way, grind is still overextracted

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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You could've continued that shot to get your desired yield of 45g or whatever

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:54 PM

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didnt start until 12s ish

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okay okay, yes sorry

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:55 PM

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And it might still not have been great, but it could've been drinkable and it would tell you a lot more about what needs to change

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Obviously you're right you need to go coarser

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:55 PM

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going to grind coarser by 1 setting probably go for 15 to 45?

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:56 PM

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Yes. Pick a ratio. For now let's say that's 15:45. That's fine.

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Don't touch anything except just adjust your grind until you get that 15:45 somewhere in the 25-45s ballpark

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 9:57 PM

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would 2 settings be too drastic?

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:57 PM

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Let's say you successfully found the grind size that got you there. Ok, so how did the shot taste? Now here is where you adjust your ratio (and nothing else!) To get your desired taste

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That might mean 15:50+ if it's light or maybe you dial that back to 15:30 if it's an easily extracting bean

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Find the ratio you like for that coffee, and you should be 90% there. Now make super minor grind changes if you want to tweak still, but be aware this will be much more subtle than your ratio adjustments

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 9:59 PM

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blazing horizon would 2 settings be too drastic?

I'm not familiar with the grinder. After you pull a handful of extra shots you'll figure it out yourself very soon

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Another reason to always pull to a consistent yield even if you choke it. You'll very quickly learn how many clicks changed your shot time by how many seconds

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:00 PM

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yeah im overeager, 1 setting makes a huge difference

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:00 PM

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Like you might find ok it took me 65 seconds to pull that shot, that means I need to adjust 4 or 5 or something

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:00 PM

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only issue is that the machine automatically shuts off at 60s

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:01 PM

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I mean yeah obviously in they case you're pretty choked

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:01 PM

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so its hard to go any further, and usually im not at target yield

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it was underextracted so idk?

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:02 PM

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But if you hit 1g in 60s that will tell you something very different from you having hit 40g in that 60s lol

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:02 PM

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fair enough, thank you

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:02 PM

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No that's a misnomer

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If you choke it, it will be under extracted

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This is why you have to roughly get grind in the ballpark first, then adjust yield, then fine tune grind again

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If your grind is ridiculously off, everything will taste like shit regardless lol

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:04 PM

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fair, alr 15g setting 58

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aw fuck my funnel is breaking

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:05 PM

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Yeah get that 1:3 to pull in a reasonable time and then come back here with your thoughts to see what can be tweaked next

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:06 PM

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blazing horizon aw fuck my funnel is breaking

it snapped as soon as i got it off the 3d printer 🤦‍♂️

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I let it go for a full min before it automatically shut off

15g yielded 30g exactly

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:13 PM

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Sounds worth tasting

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Though I doubt it's too good

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:13 PM

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it does not taste like coffee

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that is for certain

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:14 PM

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😅

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Ok so that took was one notch coarser and only got 30g in 60s

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What was your previous shot again?

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:15 PM

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Setting or yield?

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:15 PM

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Yield and time

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Or was that the one that was totally choked

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:16 PM

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No, stopped it at 25s

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:16 PM

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Ok

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:16 PM

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Yeah 3g kekcry

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:17 PM

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Ok so rough math you went from average flow of . 1g/s output on your first shot

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To .5g/s on this shot

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So roughly .4 g/s per click?

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Go 2 coarser and I bet you'll be in the ballpark

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:18 PM

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So thatd be exactly 60 I think

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Will do

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:18 PM

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Let it rip

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:19 PM

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bottom of the last puck is sticking to the pf

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but the top is wet

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do you think its because i ran it for 60s?

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:28 PM

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austere acorn Let it rip

15g resulted in 24g, I let it run the full 60 seconds

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:28 PM

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Hmm

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:28 PM

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more uncomfortably sour than the last one

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:29 PM

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Yeah I mean less yield so certainly more sour

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:29 PM

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crema is gathering in a foam type of thing at the top, which i havent seen before

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:29 PM

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You are clearly much too fine on the grind still

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There may be a puck prep issue causing some inconsistent timing results

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But probably not worth concerning with that too much yet until we get grind in ballpark

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:30 PM

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yeah im just using the pf that came with the machine and not a bottomless one, but the spouts are inconsistent

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:30 PM

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Have you pulled any shots where you were able to get desired yield?

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Wait, you're using standard basket right? Not the pressurized one?

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:31 PM

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recently no, but I havent let it run to 60s much

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standard yes

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:31 PM

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Ok 😅

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:31 PM

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😭

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:31 PM

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So every shot ever has choked?

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:32 PM

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well it starts at 11-12 ish seconds, for the last two anyways

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:32 PM

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Sorry, not choked

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But much too fine

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:33 PM

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possibly? based on the amount of time it takes I'd say yes

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:33 PM

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Ok

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Well again I don't know your grind but it seems like you need to make a pretty large adjustment since you're pretty far off still

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Unfortunately with new equipment you might need to waste half a bag until you figure out what's needed

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:34 PM

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hmmm alright, also I have like 1000 g worth so I can

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:34 PM

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🤣

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:34 PM

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just not liking wasting it obviously

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:35 PM

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Don't worry this will mostly be a one time thing

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Just write all this down for reference. Dose, yield, time, grind setting

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You'll quickly map out what the grind settings adjustments do

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And soon enough even know a starting point for various coffees

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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Yeah I always write them down, but what they do is difficult to figure out

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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Honestly it's because you're so far off still lol

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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I went down as low as 10 before figuring out I needed to go higher from the internet 😭

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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So it's kinda meaningless

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😅

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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the grind looked coarse

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:36 PM

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Picture...?

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:37 PM

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Didn't take one when I did it

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I mean... I could now but it takes a lot of effort

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:37 PM

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Was that with the blade grinder though

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:37 PM

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Nope, K4

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:37 PM

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Or your new one

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Gotcha

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:38 PM

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yeah not basing anything off of blade grinder 😅

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:38 PM

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Good lol

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:38 PM

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Idk should I go from 60 to 70?

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I found a post with someone with the same machine and grinder who used 70 but thought it should be coarser

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:40 PM

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I mean, worst case it's too coarse and then you meet in the middle

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Or you keep stepping up

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Up to you really

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You'll get the same place eventually

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 10:42 PM

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alr, not sure what I'm getting to though or how the grind sizes fully work but I will keep testing
So 70 - 15g with the intent to yield 45

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 10:43 PM

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Start blasting

blazing horizon Mar 28, 2023, 11:26 PM

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austere acorn Start blasting

results:
15 > 51
setting = 70 espresso
33s

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15 > 52
setting = 68
44s

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definitely more in the ballpark of desired yield and time but it still is very acidic...

austere acorn Mar 28, 2023, 11:57 PM

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Ok awesome

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I would pick 69 or 70 and stick with it

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Go to 60g and see how that compares to the 51g shot

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What coffee is this?

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:08 PM

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austere acorn Go to 60g and see how that compares to the 51g shot

Hi, sorry for not responding. I got super busy all of a sudden and wasn't able to dedicate time to this, if you're not able to help me now then that's completely fine

though if you still are then I just did a test with it.
15g > 62.80g
setting = 69
41.75 seconds
Shot still has acidity (less than 51g) and tastes watery, not detecting any form of coffee flavors.

coffee is described as "medium-dark roast" labeled as espresso by the company, though I do have one that they consider darker.

Unsure how to proceed, should I grind finer?

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:28 PM

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You may just not like the coffee. It sounds like you've experimented with yield and weren't super happy with any results. There's not really any other major changes you can make

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You can try picking your favorite ratio (yield) and adjust the grinder 1 click finer or coarser to see how it compares

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:29 PM

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Yeah I ground finer and it was more acidic and took longer to reach the desired yield

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:29 PM

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Adding a bottom paper filter will also greatly improve your extraction and likely help to reduce some acidity

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:30 PM

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I have a puck screen, does that affect it?

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:30 PM

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blazing horizon Yeah I ground finer and it was more acidic and took longer to reach the desired ...

Yeah when you're not working with a perfect grinder, often times going too fine just means more channeling and more gross flavors

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Bottom paper filter is different from the puck screen on top

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Many do both

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:31 PM

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Ok, I'll try the darker roast with similar settings and hope it tastes better

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:32 PM

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The best advice is to just slowly and painstakingly try every variable at a time. Choose one variable and go in both directions and just learn what they're doing for your specific setup and palate

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:34 PM

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Yeah got it, I've been trying to watch a ton of videos on dialing in but it's difficult to figure out what variable to change to get the best result.
Either way, thanks for your help,

are you able to answer any other questions once I try the darker roast? If not then I don't want to bother you with this 😅

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:35 PM

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blazing horizon Yeah got it, I've been trying to watch a ton of videos on dialing in but it's di...

Honestly I have very little experience with dark roasts so I'm probably not the best person for it

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Would be interested in your thoughts though. I will certainly say for a dark roast you'll likely want to be more in the 1:2-1:2.5 ratio range

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:36 PM

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Do you think increasing dose would help for the medium roast btw? I just got an 18-20g basket

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:36 PM

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austere acorn Would be interested in your thoughts though. I will certainly say for a dark roa...

Got it, I'll probably shoot for 30 then

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 6:37 PM

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You could experiment for sure. The flavors are a bit different, and you might end up with a more even extraction on the higher dose

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Just keep in mind it will change your necessary grind size, so it's not an easy task to compare various doses

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 6:37 PM

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Yeah I just don't want to waste too much coffee, but I don't see anything else I could change.
Ok

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 7:05 PM

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changed out the water to distilled with .3g of baking soda and oh my god its so much better

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IT IS PLEASANTLY ACIDIC OH MY GOD THIS IS SO GOOD

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 8:56 PM

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Lol nice

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I'd be very surprised if it was actually water and not placebo. But keep testing and if you found the magic recipe then write it down and keep doing that

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 9:16 PM

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austere acorn I'd be very surprised if it was actually water and not placebo. But keep testing...

Lmao, no I think it's the water bc I was using tap water before and it has a bunch of extra stuff in it. The shot came out faster and took less time.

15g > 66.38g
setting = 68
56.90 sec

15g > 68.76g - using distilled water
setting = 68
37.37 seconds

The only difference in variables is the water.

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 9:29 PM

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There's no way water should be having a 20s change on your extraction time

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You can certainly try to repeat those results but that would be wild. I bet you just likely the 2nd shot more because it was a more reasonable flow rate that created less channeling

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 9:36 PM

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Alr alr, I'll try and do it again.

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15.03g > 68.89g
setting = 68
31.85 seconds

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tastes a bit more acidic than the other shot.... idk

austere acorn Apr 1, 2023, 9:53 PM

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It seems like you're still really struggling with shot to shot consistency which is either a function of your grinder or your puck prep

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20s difference is a massive difference in flow rate and therefore flavor, so it's really hard to dial in if you can't expect to have consistency there.

blazing horizon Apr 1, 2023, 9:56 PM

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Yup fair, puck prep wise, what would have such drastic changes?

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Usually I weigh out the beans in a separate container, grind them, then put in pf, wdt in circles around the edge and then squiggles in the middle, level it by tapping it on the counter, tamp with an autoleveling tamper, and then put the puck screen on

worthy field Apr 2, 2023, 8:18 AM

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Sounds reasonable, record it so we can see if you’re doing anything weird

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But since it’s a BB+ you don’t have an OPV. (Right?) Small differences in puck prep can result in vastly different results.

Maybe try going even courser and longer. You want to avoid too much pressure being built up against the puck - that’ll compact it and make it channel

blazing horizon Apr 2, 2023, 4:16 PM

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worthy field Sounds reasonable, record it so we can see if you’re doing anything weird

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvNDgfGJegA

YouTube

Somber

Puck prep

▶ Play video

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Uploaded to youtube since I dont have nitro.
15g > 69.13g
setting = 68
23.85 seconds
this was the result, took less time and was more acidic than the last one

austere acorn Apr 2, 2023, 5:49 PM

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blazing horizon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvNDgfGJegA

It's hard to tell from the video but I'm almost positive your basket is way too full

austere acorn Apr 2, 2023, 6:11 PM

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Also your wdt technique definitely seems to need work, but I doubt it's causing 30s variance

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Have you done the coin test

blazing horizon Apr 2, 2023, 6:30 PM

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Nope, will try it now

blazing horizon Apr 2, 2023, 7:56 PM

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austere acorn Have you done the coin test

It was only disturbed when I tried to lift it off I think?

austere acorn Apr 2, 2023, 9:16 PM

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Looks like an imprint to me but I'm sure you can see better irl

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Are you using a puck screen too?

blazing horizon Apr 2, 2023, 10:21 PM

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austere acorn Are you using a puck screen too?

not when i just used the coin, used a puck screen when I pulled the shot after reducing it to 14g to see if it made a difference

14g > 81.22
setting = 68
27.33 seconds

it did not and the ratio seems to be getting weirder

austere acorn Apr 2, 2023, 10:24 PM

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Why did you change the ratio? Just an accident?

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Also the fact that that shot went a few seconds longer than your last, despite being 1g lower dose, might indicate you were indeed a bit too full

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Keep in mind with lower dose you'll need a finer grind

blazing horizon Apr 3, 2023, 12:35 AM

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austere acorn Why did you change the ratio? Just an accident?

Changed the ratio to see if the output was different. So maybe grind a few settings finer and reduce to 14 or should I go lower?

austere acorn Apr 3, 2023, 12:50 AM

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14 is definitely fine. Or you can get a larger basket if you want to go larger

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Your 1:6 ratio is starting to get a bit ridiculous though lol. I would probably learn like a standard 1:2 or 1:3 shot first

worthy field Apr 3, 2023, 7:23 AM

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Maybe long ratio (1:3-1:4) isn’t a bad idea to aim for, since no OPV

#Shots over/underextracted with barely any yield (Breville Bambino Plus)