bring more flavor to my pulls

[haughty plaza]

Hey 👋

Bringing this conversation from #water-table and #retail-coffee

I own a BBE for more than one year. It has the OPV mod to 10bar and dimmer mod.
It is paired with a DF64 with SSP HU burrs.
I make my own water for it (currently 70 GH, 50KH) and I drink coffee from Nomad, where I have a subscription.
I WDT, RDT, use a normcore tamper and use aeropress paper filters on the bottom of the PF.

I’d say I can handle this machine pretty well, shots are well extracted, pucks are even in color (some exceptions at the edges sometimes) and I can adjust coffee to taste, etc.

The thing is that when I’m in the ballpark of good the coffee do not have real pronounced flavors other than sweet or acidic, it lacks the nuances of chocolate or apple that I can taste at the coffee shop.

Since I can’t test more machines or grinders I don’t know if it’s any equipment limitation or that I actually haven’t mastered my machine yet.

Local coffee shop only uses BWT filter to add some magnesium, no RO system. They have a mythos grinder and a Victoria arduino machine.

At this point I’m considering upgrading to a Lelit Bianca or the Sage/breville dual boiler but it would be a disappointment if at the end the coffee tasted the same 😦

I’m with my custom water (50/70) and using 93c would increase temp or change water composition fix it or is just my machine that can’t make it better?

Advices needed!
Thanks

[fervent frost]

Bringing my comment over here too:
I think you’re going to have to try a few things. 1) your burrs are kinda like this to some degree. 2) your buffer is on the high end, not too high necessarily but it’s definitely not low. Ime with buffer that high I start to lose the ability to identify flavors with more specificity. 3) it could just be the coffee. Any random batch can get blown out and lose definition. 4) you’re at 10 bars. Please, come down to 6. You will get more clarity. More of many good things. 10 is not a deal breaker and probably the least important of what I’ve mentioned so far but it’s not making anything easier.

Re your question about buffer, I use 40 cacl, 10 Epsom : 20 baking. I typically suggest people start with holy water and adjust from there.

[haughty plaza]

I use holy water for filter. I’ll give it a go. I’ll also try to decrease max pressure a little more

[gaunt shard]

Have you considered really slow shots near 1:3? The fruitiest shot i got from these Natural Ethiopian beans i got when i made a choked shot slowly break through and fill my cup in excess of 60 seconds, I'm now with dimmer mod trying to get close inside of the 60secs.
I'm doing 5-10secss PI, turn off pump for 10secs and pull with ~4 bar for 1:3, not there yet but i start to sense the fruitiness again. Not bitter, not sour, overall best shots I've had with BBE, sans the extreme fruit flavor that's not quite back yet.
I'm using a top paper filter, not sure if that plays into anything.

[fervent frost]

FWIW, Ime longer shots like that diminish definition/clarity. I like the high EY from them but find it to diminish nuance which is what I think rony is looking for.

[gaunt shard]

"no distinct notes" to me means they're after the "passion fruit", "pine apple" "lychee" notes? I was trying to mention where on my unmodded BBE i had that (passion fruit anyways) and which direction I'm going with dimmer, starting to get more of it back, and that I'm not where the Passion fruit just slaps you in the face again just yet 🙂
Anything 6 bar and below would also give an extra 15 secs of extraction before auto stop kicks in on BBE.

I'm not sure if @haughty plaza has already noticed that part or not though, i didn't notice the conversation and haven't seen the start yet

There is a lot that can be done with the dimmer that doesn't require setting the OPV ultra low, not on a machine that just dumps water anyway.

[haughty plaza]

I’ve lowered the OPV to 8 bar, and I’ll change the water. Although that’s a path I can go, the truth is that on the coffee shop no dimmer is used and those notes are there, I’d like to be able to do the same at home 🙂 simple and good

[gaunt shard]

What flow do they have is the question

Dimmer is just flow control

Bigger machines aren't exactly BBE when it comes to flow

When we mod the OPV we divert flow too, OPV mod is just the least flexible way to do it. And not needed with the dimmer.

[haughty plaza]

The coffee shop machine is at 9 bar

[gaunt shard]

How long is their shot? For what yield?

[haughty plaza]

30s, 1:2.2

[haughty plaza]

First shot with holy water and 8 bar shot was strange. Pressure didn’t built pass 6 bar and only took 23s. Flavor was different than previous, acidity was there as before, not more but different. No pronounced flavors I’ll try to increase shot time

[haughty plaza]

Second shot, new nomad bag beans.
Same grind setting
31s
1:2.74 yield (15.2/41.6)
Holy water
Shot at 8 bar (actually max is 7.9) and decreased to 6 during the shot.

This one had lot of acidity (good one) I could sense some fruity notes, it’s a new bag from Colombia. But I still think flavors were muted out (could this be nomad flavor profile? 🤔)

Beans have 39 days. I always let them rest ~20 days.

One more thing, my naked PF with these beans never have a pretty instagram like visual. Usually not all the PF gets filled with coffee but pucks look even, with some zones underextracted in the margin.

Puck from today

[haughty plaza]

Another shot, I went finer. I prefer this beans more than previous but same flavors thing. Citric and sweet but not tangerine.

I’d expect these shots to loose less pressure as the OPV is lower but this also went to 6 bar. Is this expected?

In/out 1:2.63 (15/39.4)
Time: 29s
Holy water

[pliant shard]

What do you mean with "loose pressure"

[gaunt shard]

I think your times suggest you're in grind finer territory as time is ballpark for 1:2 shots and you're pulling longer without the associated longer time on conventional shots

And unhappy with taste, so we can't go the "anything is ok off it tastes good" route

[haughty plaza]

I mean loose less pressure.
For the same grind setting and beans previous pulls with OPV at 10 bar the shot started at 10 and decreased to 8.5/9 as the shot progress and puck degrades. Now they start at 8 and decrease to 6. I’d expect them to keep more time at 8 bar as there’s less pressure applied and the puck should hold longer at max pressure 🤔

[haughty plaza]

I’m not sure if unhappy is accurate. Shot is not bitter or sour, so looks like it’s on the right zone, but lacks distinct flavor notes

[pliant shard]

but the puck / coffee extracts either way, so it will erode linearly to the TDS?

erode seems so negative 🤔

erode = extract amirite

[haughty plaza]

I don’t have a TDS meter 😦 but I might get one 😅

Meanwhile

#beginners-corner message

[fervent frost]

I have seen people complain about inconsistency with Nomad. And they blame it on their Probat. But that’s over my head.

[marsh badger]

What basket are you using? I assume something sensible like the IMS for Sage baskets?

[haughty plaza]

VST

[haughty plaza]

Really? I haven’t seen anything about nomad here 😦

The other thing that occurred me is that I might be opening the bags too late as they are close to 30 days. My last bag is always around 60 days when finished

[marsh badger]

VST don’t do a 54mm basket do they?

[haughty plaza]

IMS, sorry

[marsh badger]

You could change roasters for a month, Manhattan would be a good shout as I’ve found their coffee to have very clearly pronounced flavours.

It may be that Nomad + your specific setup just isn’t producing the results you’d get on another setup for some reason. Easy enough to test.

[haughty plaza]

Indeed, that’s what I’ll do.
Also with nomad I’ve always have to grind close to zero (3/4).
I just pulled a coffee from coffee collective (it’s filter but I gave it a try) and at 6 bar the shot took 42s. I could taste berries though 🙂

[marsh badger]

I only pull filter/omni roasts as spro these days. they’re so much better than espresso roaste.

[haughty plaza]

I usually user espresso roast from nomad to my hario switch, even espresso is pretty light I can make good cups

[marsh badger]

Try some filter roasts especially from Manhattan.

[haughty plaza]

I might have to reduce coffees the next days as I’m over coffeenating

4 double shots yesterday

I’m kind of nauseous 😂

[marsh badger]

Yeah I tend to tap out around 3 doubles, or 2 18g filters, or 1 cupping session + 1 other coffee personally.

[haughty plaza]

Yes 3 doubles also my limit

Usually I do 1 filter and one double

[fervent frost]

This doesn’t sound too old.

[haughty plaza]

I also think so, but I’m exploring all options here

[haughty plaza]

How can I solve this without going turbo shots?

I use the aeropress filter so I’d expect to reach better the edges

This is from another coffee collective, which took 30s for a 1:2.7 ratio. And I could taste berries!

[haughty plaza]

Ouch they are really expensive and without free shipping 😢

[marsh badger]

Depends on country. I get free shipping to the U.K.

[haughty plaza]

Really? For Portugal is 13€

[marsh badger]

Spend €60 and it’ll be free.

I think.

[fervent frost]

You can’t really but also, do you need to? Seems like you liked the taste. Isn’t that the point?

[haughty plaza]

Yes, but aren’t even extractions the el dorado? 😃

[marsh badger]

El dorado is whatever you think it is. My read on this was that you’re having the same exact coffees at a local cafe and getting green apple & plum flavours say, but at home you just get mild acidity and maybe indefinite stone fruitiness, is that about that size of things?

[haughty plaza]

At home I get acidity and sweetness but no clear flavors, yes 😦

[marsh badger]

Have you tried putting the italmills back in your grinder?

Cos I have three hypotheses for you:
1). Coffee is just mismatched to your setup somehow (test by buying a known powerfully flavoured coffee ie. La Huella from Manhattan)
2). Your burrs just aren’t producing the right PSD for spro (test by changing burrs)
3). BBE’s poor water distribution at group is causing uneven extraction inside the puck (test by using the same grind and coffee on another machine mimicking the BBE shot profile so… Bianca or similar)

[haughty plaza]

I can even try to grind on the BBE grinder. On the weekend I’ll try to put the Itamil back on. But HU should provide more clarity than Itamil, no?

As for the 3, other than the coffee shop I only know people with same machine as mine 😅🥹

Btw even 60€ Manhattan charges shipping. But I think I’ll give it a shot

[marsh badger]

Where are you shipping to?

[haughty plaza]

Portugal

[haughty plaza]

Btw, we never discussed temperature. Should I change that variable?

[marsh badger]

You can try it, it’s not going to harm anything, higher temps tend to flow a little faster. Which is somewhat counterintuitive.

[haughty plaza]

I just did some temp measurements using the thermometer from my multimeter.
I removed the shower screen and inserted the tip into the water hole and found some interesting stuff.

[marsh badger]

Probably water flowing out is around 89C(ish)?

[haughty plaza]

first thing I discovered is that temp stability sucks! During the 60s the temp decreased

PI only mod hold better the temp, but still too low

So in PI only mod and temp at default (93):

[marsh badger]

That’s actually semi-ideal… a forced sharply declining temperature profile has been a preference of mine for some of my lighter roasts. But even with my machine you’re gonna get a slightly declining temp profile over the shot.

[haughty plaza]

water started at 96ºc
and was at 80ºc after 60 sec

in normal mode (PI+full power)
water started at 96ºc
and was at 69ºC after 60 sec

In PI only mod and temp at max (95):
water started at 97ºc
and was at 83ºc at 60s
in normal mode (PI+full power)
water started at 96ºc
and was at 69ºC after 60 sec

so, increasing temperature did not produced any impact in temperature

[marsh badger]

I think you’ll find it produced a substantial difference in median and mean temperature and a very different temperature curve.

[haughty plaza]

Then I measured temperature at 15s and 30s, which would be in the ballpark of a regular shot.

[marsh badger]

Shame you can’t do a live plot out via BT or something. That would be a way of seeing what I’m talking about.

[haughty plaza]

indeed

at both temperature settings I got readings between 85-88ºC at 15s and 76-79ºc at 30s

no clear increase in temp

I did 5 readings for each tem setting

and spent 4/5 full water tanks during the hole process

[marsh badger]

That’s a lot of water…

I think it’s worth looking at relative rather than absolute difference. Assuming your probe is accurate to +/- 0.5°c or so you’re around 3% increase from 76°c - 79°c which is likely significant

[haughty plaza]

I'm considering that this can have a real impact on being able to extract flavours from light roasts

[marsh badger]

Assuming you got the higher readings from the higher setting.

[haughty plaza]

actually in the high temp setting at 30s it moved between 76-78ºc and at lower at 30s from 76-79ºc

it might not be 100% accurate but it's far from the ideal ~80ºc something, right?

turbo shots might be more consistent as at 15s temp is still high around 85/88

[marsh badger]

Temperature profiling and temp curves are a whole other thing and deciding on what’s ideal is pretty complicated.

One thing we think we might possibly know is a fixed constant temperature might not be ideal.

see how couched in caveats that is for how much we actually know about this topic

However… for reference I pull most of my lighter roasts at 95C+, some of them with a temp profile declining to 85C over the course of a 45s or so shot (usually to tidy up high extraction bitterness in the finish).

If I’m doing turbos I tend to push the temperature down towards 93C though, I have enjoyed some fast flow/large ratio style shots at 98C but in general I find it a bit too tart with lights.

[haughty plaza]

Which machine do you have?

And that temp is measured at the boiler or at the PF exit?

Just to compare with mine

[marsh badger]

Lelit Bianca, which means that’s the temperature of the water circulating in the group’s thermosiphon system, which comes from the brew boiler along a different path to the brew water.

But it’s also the temperature of the brew boiler set point minus the variable offset coded into the LCC to achieve that temperature at the group in theory.

At least I think that’s how it works… I’d need to consult an expert with a diagram to properly understand how Bianca manages brew temperature.

[haughty plaza]

According to Lance’s video on V3 the temp at group head is 5/7c less than what is at the boiler, and the offset does not work

So he sets it to around 97

https://youtu.be/p-oFv_1pBAI

So, if it’s true that higher temps can extract better and that play a more important role for light roasts that are hard to extract, it can explain the lack of flavors I’m getting

[fervent frost]

If you’re going to try to measure how much your temp drops over the duration of your shot you wanna measure the temp after the amount of water you need has been dispensed. So that’s probably about 75ml. And depending on the water debit probably about 11s duration. I think you’re fine.

[haughty plaza]

I’ll put the probe in the PF with the blind shot, it will give a more accurate reading

[fervent frost]

But the blind is a heat sink, no?

[haughty plaza]

No, but I’d say Is more accurate as it builds pressure and sends water through OPV as well.

[marsh badger]

Yes but it also won’t achieve outflow. The only real way to measure this is… well actually we don’t really have one but shoving a sensor into the puck * kinda* works… or a scace if you happen to have money to burn.

[haughty plaza]

Yeah I know

But results should be between using a blind shot and running a free shot

Just did a small test

I’ve ran 60s of water at default temp and put the sensor

82c at 15s and 86c at 30s

But water was coming out.

Then I put max temp, ran again 60s of water

82c at 15
80c at 30
79 through the remaining 30s

Then back to default temp

Another 60s of water

87c at 15s
86c at 30s

The machine was turned on for 1hr

I’ll have to run more shots to get an average and see if these numbers stabilize

[fervent frost]

You can make amazing coffee with 80c water at the puck.

[haughty plaza]

Light roasts?

[fervent frost]

Yes

[marsh badger]

In general the gap between great and fine is not the equipment being subpar, it’s a skill gap.

Can great equipment make the skills easier to learn? Sure. Is it necessary? Not really.

[haughty plaza]

In that case I don’t know what’s wrong here 🥲

I might try TWW water recipe and see if water can change anything.

[marsh badger]

Water changes everything but maybe don’t go TWW full and go like TWW 50/50 distilled or 30/70 even. It’s pretty hard and not great on spro machines.

Or go full nutjob like me and get a zero pitcher, a microbalance, and minerals and direct dose your minerals into your water… more useful if you also brew filter and want to experiment with different waters.

[haughty plaza]

That’s what I use: zero pitcher, magnesium and bicarbonate concentrates 🙂

Ive used same water profile as nomad and also as the coffee shop I use as comparison and water haven’t put me on the same flavor. I might go wild just to see what happens 😂

[marsh badger]

Try 60/90 water it’s pretty solid.

[haughty plaza]

Well, I just did 160/70 with bicarb soda instead of potassium. And, f*ck me! Clear toffee and apple smell and taste. If this fixes my espresso it’s totally unexpected 😅😂

[marsh badger]

Water is the real MVP when it comes to spro. Although I haven’t quite figured out the things I want to know, to know what I need to understand about it myself. 😅

[haughty plaza]

I just not give it a 100/100 because I had some sourness at the end. the yield was 1:2.3, moving it to 1:2.5 should fix it.

Yeah i was trying to mimic water from tree coffee shop but this was WOW

[marsh badger]

Burr / Machine / Water combination is crazy complex and not amenable to swapping individual pieces really.

[haughty plaza]

Well, I think that I might have solve this issue for good 🙂

Usually I open new beans ~30/35days after roast and the last bag at +50 days as someone recommended to rest them at least 4 weeks since they are light roasts.

I opened a bag yesterday with 22 days and my last 4 shots have all been pretty tasty with clear notes on all, which is something I've never had.
Also, although not important, visually wise the shots are viscous and fill completely the naked PF, like you see on all the videos 😄

So, I might have been drinking coffee that is past it's peakness, which follow along with Dr Samo post about freshness on instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ck-zJPaqSuI/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

Since I drink ~1Kg of coffee ideally I'd have 500gr delivered at start of month and another 500gr at the middle but I wasn't able to find subscription plan that does that 😄

samosmrke

This is part three of the posts about peak freshness of a coffee. Please read the previous posts for a full understanding of the topic.
.
Thank you for all the discussion that happened with first two posts, it already gave new ideas for tests (and at least part IV of a future post).
.
If you found these too technical, I will do more coffee scien...

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[haughty plaza]

2 more shots and flavors are still there. It looks like the Problem is solved ☺️

[glacial peak]

Can you explain what you did to fix? I’m kinda new and don’t understand the meaning of 160/70 and how it fixed this for you. Thanks!

[haughty plaza]

What fixed for me was a new espresso machine

😅