Balance / Magic shield discussion

[left tendon]

This post is not a hate campaign against Mahj, I love the pack. I truly do.
I simply want to showcase how the current way of balancing is really not sustainable for continuous play.

Here's the BASIC premise of past updates (I came in in 1.0 so don't clown on me too hard)

1.0 - Crit was crazy broken. Arrow totem had ppl hitting 3.5m dps, chicken and Laplace both had over 3.5m dps. Chicken using golems for infinite healing with healing power from int. While Laplace used Hallow palm and stacking to 930+ Dex to be a true glass cannon.

1.1 - Crit was practically gutted (I mean you almost are REQUIRED to play blessed aim if you want to play ANY weapon you want) --- BiS mythics can hit flat 5%, then 2.5% flat from rune. Mahj also nerfed flat crit chance from 6 to 5. He also nerfed the most played spells in Resonance and Arrow Totem, as he gave them charge recovery. Which if you're not ultra end-game is semi hard to get on jewels.

Now let's get to predicting / discussing my main reason for this post.

1.2 will easily have the biggest hit to Magic Shield (as it wasn't addressed in 1.1) Mahj has LITERALLY admitted it himself that he "overly nerfs things". Which he'll then push back up in power in the next update (this being 3-5 months typically)
This balance way is EXTREMELY unforgiving in my eyes. It incentives you to basically swap between crit / Magic shield every other patch.

Overall, with the expected change of Magic Shield in 1.2, there's a chance the nerf is over done to a point MS falls off extremely hard compared to crit. (It's a cake walk to hit 300%+ crit dmg, also this really pushes for Bloodmage to be in nearly every build)

Overall I 100% think a "balance team" will solve 95% of these problems. Meaning, select few of lv 100s / players who've played a long time can help on a test world of some sort for skills / dmg numbers.

[wet abyss]

tbh i dont get your part about crits, its still fairly easy to reach 100% crit chance (im playing whirlwind and i do not take ANY crit chance nodes in tree and have 100% and capped 5x crit damage)

as for magic shield i think it should be nuked hard because currently it is enough to just equip high MS gear and become unkillable.

[fiery arrow]

where do you even get this information from

i have never once mentioned any thing about magic shield

the fuck

stop spreading misinformation

balance team is dumb we tried it in the past and it just doenst work that well. there's just too many factors in play, not enough testers, too much time, this is just a hobby

even a team of like 4 people is not remotely enough and you cant' test everything

[left tendon]

My conversations in discord with Creator I got the impression you're well aware of the imbalance of MS....
So it's only to be expected that you would nerf it next patch...

[fiery arrow]

plus i can count on one hand the numbe of people who actually know the system of mns in and out

[fiery arrow]

even if you think i am do you think its right to tell people i will be?

[left tendon]

Very true, as I'm only in view of end-game stuff. As I have more items than I know what to do with. I was simply wanting to see if there's a solution other than "over nerf", then come back to it.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just was kinda sad when I couldn't keep playing str only stack for Crit based builds.

[fiery arrow]

for the record, i never said anything about ms, havent talked to creator or mentioned anything about it to anyone

i really doubt creator implied anything like that, you might have misunderstood what he was saying

[fiery arrow]

i get it

[left tendon]

Can i respond to this post with direct feedback related to MS?
I've hit 69k now so I know how I did it

[fiery arrow]

yes absolutely

i do think thats really high, if its something exploitable i would like to know about it

[left tendon]

I think there's 100% a calculation oversight.

But that's me who's dumb and knows nothing about code.

[tacit ibex]

I kinda like the idea of a balance team, but I can see how it wouldn't work out that well in this case. Maybe we could find overpowered stuff, but getting it to a "perfect" level is not realistic with a couple people testing in their free time. Maybe it could still help a little though?

As for the nerfs, I think it makes sense to over nerf then bring the power level back up if it was too much. I get why it can feel frustrating though if it takes a couple months until that happens. Mahj is just one guy working on this as a hobby, and I think he's doing a great job.

Even if one build is way better than the others, I don't think you should force yourself to play it just because of that. You can do other builds simply for fun, and I'm sure there are some good combos out there that people haven't found yet.

TLDR: I'm pretty happy with the current state of the modpack. Sure balance could be better, but it will never be perfect.

[slate forge]

Balance is always WIP
i think the problem here is pulling info out of who knows where and assuming it is what it is and confirmed by who knows who

[left tendon]

I suck at wording, I truly do.

I more meant it as "If we follow what happened to Arrow Totem / Resonance, It's SAFE to assume some sort of change would come to "the most played" stuff" from 1.1 when 1.2 drops.

Like i said, I only started in 1.0. So my data to go off of for changes is extremely skewed from 1.0->1.1...
But it was the best I had to go off in order to give constructive feedback. I more was trying to ask if a balance team is at all possible. While also bringing to light the downtime between builds possibly being relavent again.

[slate forge]

i feel like im listening to some politician speech, i see a lot of words, but no condensed idea or actual feedback, its just going in rounds

instead of trying to beautify your speech - try to give more exact data and ideas

[left tendon]

My numbers on that build where very wrong. Sorry about that.

I'm going to do a write up now

[wet abyss]

tbh you don't really have much data. i started playing this modpack a long long time ago, and over the years, it is much more polished for a minecraft modpack. it is almost feel like a separate game.

speaking of balance, it is impossible to balance out everything and there is no point of doing so because if everything is strong/weak about the same, then youll lost that feel of setting up a cool build. some builds are stronger now, some weaker. some can be made with a few items but have no growth potential, some are very expensive and need an exact uniques to function.

[stray dawn]

i count 4

[left tendon]

Written feedback:
My current TOP magic shield: 71917 - Uptime is 100%

My current build has 104% "more magic shield"

Towering physique: 15% more magic shield
Towering physique: Corruption of 17 int + 4% more magic shield
Vitality Augment: 9.9% more
Ascendency: Thick cloat - 15% more magic shield
Stare of the abyss: 50% more magic shield
Defender Game changer: 10% more magic shield

Total MORE magic shield:
2.494x more

My magic shield without any of these "More" options:
21980

With these "more" options:
71917

[stray dawn]

this post is dumb, it just comes off as sour grapes. magic shield and crit had historically always been an issue, we know. this really comes across as “i want the balancing for the stuff i play to be the way i want it to”

data helps tho

numbers hell

help

[left tendon]

I was more trying to help him more reasonably balance MS (I have fear it's an arrow totem situation where I login and I have 1/30th of my dmg instantly xD
(i totally disregarded charge recovery stuff which was omega stupid of me)

I think the video I made / numbers after taking all my more multipiers away should help him somewhat.

[stray dawn]

fair enough but i wouldnt go and assume things or try to get us to leak info and shit and then speculate based off that cuz ik you been trying little scamp

[left tendon]

Also, my game file is attached to the public server. So you can guys can access all of my data. (If mahj doesn't know, I play Wraeclast)

[stray dawn]

also you reallt cannot nor will we balance around the top 1% of ppl who look to optimize super hard, that isnt sustainable. chicken and laplace find the broken shit and use it cuz its fun to do, but not everyone is doing it, most ppl are just using whatever build. if there was an overtune, fair enough it should be suggested to change. but to suggest the overall balancing theory is out of wack cuz two very number crunching intensive stats are not tuned right isnt correct. we had the same issue in dissonance

im confused cuz u said crit was gutted but you then say its a cakewalk to hit 300+% dmg

[left tendon]

crit chance. (using str stack)
I think context of blessed aim being mentioned was fine

[stray dawn]

ms is fucked tho

[left tendon]

I'm probably 100% overreacting in terms of what the impact will be.
Even if i keep like +50% more ms, it's still around 40k. If he nerfs battery to .75% (which is halfing it's current stats)
That's still like 5x or so additive dmg. Which is basically what crit rate hits. (I think crit might have more options for "more" scaling iirc.

The build is kinda only OMEGA OP with Clamor / Holy fire (AKA 2/3 of the totally uncapped spells)

The reason we haven't really dove into Forbidden rite is bc it's projectiles are difficult to deal with. Holy fire is AOE circle, and clamor nukes rooms.

Balance / Magic shield discussion

[steady grotto]

ya idk i think the balance is relatively really good these days, at least compared to earlier updates

i think mahj does a fantastic job with balancing with each update considering all of the variables and lack of testing

it's never gonna be perfect- and that's okay <3

i'm happy as long as people are having fun

[stray dawn]

i fuckin HATE mahjs balancing thats why ive been here for almost FOUR YEARS

[steady grotto]

yeah so true

the balance team idea seems okay on paper but i think this game is more casual than that

i don't rlly think we need anything more than people just giving constructive feedback and testing

which is already what happens, and mahj does great following up on it :3

[ripe surge]

300% is easy to hit

Valor is a crazy buff

• one of the charges gives 25% crit

[stray dawn]

ya exactly

[ripe surge]

chance*

So u can keep that on perm if you have spiders or smt

[ripe surge]

I will admit tho

It’s very hard to get 100% crit

Chance

If you don’t have blessed aim

It’s pretty much not gonna happen

Strength rune word on hammer helps a lot

[ripe surge]

And

Ur right not everyone is gonna get 4 gear defense on every piece

And corrupt everything

I was early game in the old patch so I didn’t even use jewels idk I think they gave crit chance or smt

Crit isn’t bad it just ur forced to go crusader for 100% so ur kinda locked in

And arrow totem was fun and the charge recovery was a good nerf it kinda does make the build almost balanced because of the sheer amount of nodes you have to path to now

[left tendon]

I typically try to play the BiS builds as I like to nuke bosses, while also nuking the large pack mobs.

So 1.0 I played arrow totem or resonance, then now I’m playing MS scaling to the moon Holy fire / Clamor depending on the mood I’m in.

I understand it’s probably an issue with my playstyle, but it’s how I’ve played POE / all other ARPGs

[steady grotto]

yeah that's fine you can play how you want, no one is saying otherwise

[proud tide]

I think it's more so that a balance team just isn't the right approach for how mahj's development style is, as you said I think it's more practical to work on balance on a case-by-case basis through feedback

unfortunately it does seem kind of rare for balance discussions to actually take place on the forums compared to bugs or other kinds of suggestions

so if you think something about the pack needs work in terms of balance, go make a post about that specific thing and include some data, comparisons and suggestions. Simply saying balance bad mahj is gonna nerf my build isn't gonna help anyone

it's no wonder they take the overnerf initially then improve later approach when it's not like they have many suggestions or that much feedback to work with in terms of balance

tho I guess I'm still new so idk what I'm talking about :p

[left tendon]

I think 1-2 weeks after every major update I’ll b making a discussion post in suggestions tab. Even though I’d rather a designated spot for it.

[stray dawn]

this is the designated spot lol

[left tendon]

Here’s some more feedback:

Heart of ice is basically its own issue, outside of Battery. It’s flat is 300, which I have EASILY BTW 100% uptime. Which results in +5-6k total magic shield

main reason why I’m truly immortal is the fact that Magma Orb leeches 7.3% of my fire dmg as magic shield.

Playing holy fire version, I’m completely immortal so long as there’s mobs near me. If there’s zero mobs, I degen insanely fast (in 10-20 maps I’ve died 4 times)

I think some combination of nerfing battery as well as changing magma orbs values will b good to somewhat nerf my build.

[proud tide]

that's fair and a good idea

[proud tide]

witterwy

[gloomy night]

Unrelated to magic shield specifically, but more related to build diversity and balance.

I think you should uncap a lot of stats, or if you're worried about some exploit, then just make the cap something WAYYYY higher/ virtually unobtainable.

If I want my whole tree to be AoE so I can hit the whole screen with something then why not? Why is AoE capped at 100%? Why is critical strike damage capped at 400%? Why are we limited to 9 jewels?
If you want to limit to 9 jewels because "they're too strong" then maybe it's time to make the tree less weak to compensate.
All over the tree it's: 3 points for "2% increased damage, 2% increased damage 10% increased damage"
Also why is there a little Intelligence "Wheel" at the top, but not a little Strength or Dexterity "Wheel" bottom left/right? ( there is a 10 dex node bottom right, but the 10 str node is in the like "shadow" area? lol )

[proud tide]

yeah I found the placements of the +10 stat nodes to be really odd, any int build can grab a free +10 int or +20 if they veer slightly to the left of the tree but god forbid you want +10 strength and you start at the strength tree

the 100% aoe cap seems like the most arbitrary to me because it's only "very strong" in cases where abilities don't use line of sight or blocked by walls. Otherwise going over 100% doesn't actually do anything to improve a build other than be funny

[wet abyss]

are you complaining about "2% increased damage" tre node in every game?

so you just want that every small node become "game changer" node right?

it is fine as it is, it provides some diversity, but i agree, some of them place in strange places and some need change imo but i wont be saying about this here.

and you are right, thats completely unrelated

[proud tide]

I mean it's not entirely unrelated, the post is partly titled balance discussion

[gloomy night]

? No I'm not complaining about "2% increased damage" tre node in every game. I'm saying if the thought process behind "let's limit players to only 9 jewels" is because "more jewels would be too OP" then I suggest making traveling nodes and notables more appealing.

I don't want every small node to become a "Game Changer" but I guess when there are "Game Changers" that just give 20% increased damage and +208 accuracy at the cost of all your crit damage... then maybe some should be like that yea lol

[gloomy night]

Also strength giving global damage instead of just melee damage means that playing strength stack as anything but projectiles or spells ( for iron will support / diamond will / iron grip ) makes no sense lol the reason those work in PoE is because strength gives only bonus damage to melee 😛

[steady grotto]

i kinda wish it gave more melee damage tbh

i think strength is kinda bad outside of abusing uniques/gimmick damage conversion things

[stray dawn]

what would makekt better

[steady grotto]

i'd honestly make it give you a bit more damage than current

[ripe surge]

i think str has pretty mid bonuses

[steady grotto]

either by increasing the weapon damage it gives or adding melee damage to it since it is kinda weird that it has better synergy with the other damage types on paper

[ripe surge]

int and dex have cheesy builds

str is forced into 1 corner

[steady grotto]

i agree like with 1k strength you only deal 2x damage

yea

[ripe surge]

btw

only reso works with this

and i have to heavy invest in charge recovery

and i have to play these annoying bard spells 24/7

garden of thorns is hot dog water becasue it cant hit in the air

and feels weird to use

[steady grotto]

it's pesky..

[thorn shuttle]

tbf str got hit quite a bit of nerfs and MS is just living. Strength was nerfed to give less health back when bloodsparks was problematic, now there's multiple different stat scaling items for other stats, but strength was left its nerfed state

So kinda felt like other archetypes were improved while strength got left behind

[ripe surge]

str got walked so ms could fly

[stray dawn]

magic shield is a dumb mechanic imo it should never have been a mainable stat, just an addon to whatever

like for mages specifically

[ripe surge]

bro

its fucking ice heart

the 60k magic shield isnt the problem

its the fact they can regen

30% of it

per second 🥀

forever

u can have perm uptime on that so that means u DONT need a magic shield regen augment

so u can min max ur tree for literally only magic shield and have 0 downsides for somereason

so broken

[steady grotto]

yeah lol

[ripe surge]

60k is cool but if the cant regen it who cares

30% per second is crazy

[left tendon]

30% only last for 3s
The infinite part is the flat 331 MS, which translates to around 4-5k bonus magic shield.

My regen is from the game changer where ALL my damage leeches for 5% of the dmg dealt. (Mahj, Maybe it’s worth to look into the interactions between leech and magma orb, it might double dip so there’s a chance I have like 12% leech)

In terms of calculations for MS. After going back and looking at the numbers, they seem to add up. (Off by a small % as rounding issues and I haven’t looked at game files for exacts)

My final feedback for Mahj in terms of upper limits. I’m 99% sure the upper limit of my build is around 80-85k MS. I’ll check back in once I create near BiS gear, but currently that’s where I feel like a good landing spot is.

[ripe surge]

mahj should of just kept it how it was

having 30% overtime then 1 big heal

means that you can go into a big group of mobs and tank multiple 20k hits

and come out unscathed compared to 1 big heal then dying while its on cooldown

[gloomy night]

yea but the point is that giving it generic damage bonus sort of makes diamond/iron will & iron grip the obvious go-to for strength stacking since there isn't a "trade off" like in PoE where you're saying:
"Ok I'm not going to get the big melee damage bonus, but I can use THESE MECHANICS to get bonuses instead"

[gloomy night]

perm uptime on the 30% regen per second? you just mean perm uptime on the extra ES bonus right?

[ripe surge]

perm uptime on the extra

very short cd on other

[gloomy night]

yea, I agree that heart of ice is problematic, if it got nerfed to be like 8-10% it'd be a lot more reasonable. or be like 75% recovered but only last half a second by default something like that so it's basically just a 1 time use heal cuz right now you can just wait until you're low, use it, and then facetank your entire ES pool for like 3 seconds straight

also HoI sorta pigeon holes anyone wanting to do ES stacking into elementalist which sucks

[ripe surge]

did u make the build @gloomy night

[left tendon]

Well having it on W results in perm sustain as mobs take time to hit you.

Heart of ice has its own unique, which a lot of the nerds I’ve talked to say if a skill has a unique AND pigeon holes you, just use the unique (Sparks ring for many lightning focused builds)

I think heart of ice change to be 10% instead of 30 is still bad. As you can just use magma orb / even the 5% leech and you’re chilling.

All of these mechanics work in tandem to make end game builds immortals.

Lowering heart of ice flat won’t do much. Losing like 5k magic shield isn’t too too big.

The large heal part of it + Battery support dropping to 1% would nerf dmg a lot.

[gloomy night]

what build?

[proud tide]

I think the big issue with MS being so strong is the existence of battery; when you look at other forms of defense = damage such as bloodspark, you see they come with hefty downsides, or in the case of the unique set, you need to not only have the full set but you lose a lot of important stats

battery has a laughably negligible downside, it may as well not exist

not to mention how much easier it is to scale MS compared to HP because of the large difference in HP compared to MS that can be acquired on gear

on top of int giving natural MS% scaling whereas str gives flat health scaling

[thorn shuttle]

life is on life support

jk big of exaggeration. but it is in a much lower spot than MS

[proud tide]

yeah..

[thorn shuttle]

min max HP isnt even close to half of min-max MS, like damn bro

[proud tide]

an easy way to feel just how night and day the difference between HP and MS is, just try a HP clamor build vs an MS clamor build

[thorn shuttle]

ceiling ive seen people talk about for HP is 20k range. ms is in the 60-80K potential currentally

steve is trying to push 80k if he hasnt already so yea lol

[proud tide]

that's not even including the existence of battery either, slap battery on the latter and it's silly how incomparable the two are

[left tendon]

Went up roughly 3.5K MS.
I hit 100% flat magic shield augment (520)
I hit total of +8% augment effect
I got +150 magic shield from my armor

Closing in on 80k!!!

[gloomy night]

honestly the only problem I see with this, is that other builds & archetypes need to be buffed / have their arbitrary cap removed so they can catch up

not saying everything should be "overtuned" and "OP" and ez mode, just that min maxing super end game builds SHOULD trivialize a lot of the content in most ways.
there are still things this build can struggle with ( which is fine ) or other builds do better, and that's how it should be imo
if anything it should be inspiration for more & harder & more lucrative end game content to be added to the mod 🙂

[thorn shuttle]

this doesn't even have to do anything with caps. life and MS have never been capped. Caps are irrelevant to what everyone is talking about here

[left tendon]

He means caps for dmg. (Abilties with "capped to 103% weapon dmg")

Clamor, Asura, Holy fire are all uncapped. So the dmg u can "easily" pull on those is outta this world.

[thorn shuttle]

they are uncapped for a reason. having no caps on everything is a bad idea imo. Just play SP and turn them off at that point.

each one you listed relies on a gimmick others ones dont. even when minion explode had its prime, you could hit 7 figure numbers per zombie exploded and it had a cap. Bringing up things that are weaker is better than just uncapping everything.

[gloomy night]

crit damage capped at 400%, skills scaling with energy being capped at certain amounts, aoe capped at 100%, etc

i said it before but if things are going to be capped out of concern of "well maybe someone figures some exploit to get inifnite numbers" or something, then make the caps something way higher that's basically unobtainable anyway... like 500% aoe, 2000% crit multi, etc

the way it is now it just limits build diversity and pushes ppl in to things like ES stacking

[thorn shuttle]

its more so the pack is balanced around those caps removing them means rebalancing the entire pack aswell as everything. the AoE cap wasnt there. but crit multi was always there and its been fine. In most cases its always the most damage build vs ailment. No cap on it, just makes ailments fall even more behind. That's just one example of an outcome

and how would you even buff ailments to compete at that point, they arent limited by a damage cap multiplier like crit is.

"remove all caps" doesnt think of things like that

[gloomy night]

if the problem with removing crit cap is that people will invest further into crit damage, but there is no amount of investment that can make ailments ever compete with crit then i don't think the problem is whether or not there is a cap on crit my guy

crit cap or not i don't think ailments are competing with crit, ailments feel more like a tertiary objective in my limited experience with them... "damage over time" in general seems weird since a lot of stuff "hits every .5s" but isn't "damage over time"

also if you say "it's been fine" then you can't really complain about ES stacking or battery being too OP imo, it's all part of the same system lol

if i had a gem / item that said "gain crit damage per MS" and then i had one that gave skill damage per MS, then i'd probably drop crit and stack more MS assuming that's a choice ( or just do both if possible lol... i'm typing this out and realizing it's not the best example )

[thorn shuttle]

not same thing but sure go off.

people have provided exact examples already why that is

[gloomy night]

it's like what i said the other day about jewels though, jewels being limited to 9 seems like a bandaid fix to a larger problem

[gloomy night]

exact examples of what?

[thorn shuttle]

blood sparks negative crit. no way is MS equivalent to HP. has nothing to do with crit (no idea how you related it but ok)

zero downsides for stacking MS. downsides for other stacking types. You took what i said about crit and applied it out of context

[gloomy night]

my argument is about overall build diversity in the game at end game, i'm not talking about life vs ms

[gloomy night]

the "downside" would be, you can't do it on every single build

there are builds that require half the investment and do way more single target damage(and are very tanky), that can't be played as MS stacking trickster

my argument is there would be MORE builds that are fun & competitive with ES stacking if there were less arbitrary limitations

[thorn shuttle]

mine was that, even with some caps some things are still strong as hell. That's where the "its fine" came from for crit. I was saying that even with its cap its strong.
Some are arbitrary but i dont believe that all are.

[gloomy night]

so where do you draw the line then? why are other archetypes not allowed to be min maxed beyond a certain point, but if MS stacking is, then it's worthy of being gutted / capped

like there are clearly opportunity costs involved with stacking crit damage or AoE or jewels or other things that are capped

just like how I'm pretty sure you're not going to reach 60k+ shield and also be a crit build with worthwhile investment into it

[steady grotto]

i feel like we kinda already established the issue just fine earlier ;-;

[gloomy night]

what issue?

[steady grotto]

the imbalace of magic shield / other archetypes

the gist of it is really just that ms has gotten buffed both directly and indirectly for several patches, while hp has been receiving the opposite generally

like battery support gem or the crazy % regeneration or the non reliance of end runes for your gear, etc

[gloomy night]

i don't think it's as black and white as "MS good, Life bad" I think there are MS builds that aren't any good because of other factors, and the solution isn't just "lul stack more ES" and I also think that there are life builds that are just as good by every relevant metric

[steady grotto]

i mean

if that was the case then there wouldn't be a post here discussing that issue

[gloomy night]

u think that's how it works?

[steady grotto]

i believe ms just has a higher ceiling because more mechanics are supporting it atm

so yes

[gloomy night]

do you think explode minion should be nerfed?

i could make a post right now talking about how it's over tuned and should be nerfed

lol

doesn't mean that i'm right

[steady grotto]

wasn't that bugged to scale off your hp and not minions

[gloomy night]

i think they fixed that

yea, was fixed in 1.1.0 (10-22-2025)

I'm obv not saying that MS stacking isn't good, i used to play it for a long time, and I think it's the best way to play Holy Fire for sure... I'm just saying I don't think that nerfing battery / MS numbers is the right call, and I don't think that making life numbers bigger would solve everything... not everyone wants to run blood spark lol

[steady grotto]

even if that skill is insane, which minion builds are strong for raw single target (not the only metric of strength anyway), ms is more flexible imo

the battery support gem is just insane for what it can provide you

the regen and phys resistance available just provide you immortality and it feels like there's not much investment going into that

idk that's just my take on it

i hate stupid gimmick mechanics like blood spark or battery

because they just throw the balance of the game out of wack and warp it around themselves if they're even slightly too good

[gloomy night]

i guess that just depends on the vision for what end game should look like... to be fair, I'm basing most of my argument off "yea, if I have spent dozens and dozens of hours blasting maps & farming all the gear & rolling all the uniques / mythics... then I should be able to clear at walk speed MOST content and should be able to do bosses in a relatively short amount of time"

[steady grotto]

ya i agree that's a generally agreeable thing to want

because the bar is subjective at the end of the day

but ya just some things that are out of line atm

[gloomy night]

from that point of view, i don't think battery is "insane" unless you're just comparing it to the "insanity" of MOST of our lackluster alternatives

[steady grotto]

like i can sit here with perfect gear and perfectly theorycraft the best asura build and it seems like it never could come close to a lot of things

or holy fire just seeming blatantly overtuned with magic shield stack

[steady grotto]

yeah it's literally got nothing to compare to because the alternatives are uhmmmmm

[gloomy night]

i completely disagree with this

[steady grotto]

2 unique items and a gimmick

[gloomy night]

most i was ever able to get out of holy fire was still less than 1m single target dps

[steady grotto]

versus the general "i am tankier therefor i deal more damage"

[gloomy night]

yea i think we fundamentally disagree on the idea of stat stacking but i agree that there aren't a lot of fun/viable alternatives

[steady grotto]

idk it isnt like ive played it but it seems to have some of the most ridiculous scaling in the whole game compared to your average weapon damage skill

[gloomy night]

i think if battery IS going to get nerfed, then just have it have a downside unrelated to damage like a giant attack speed & cast speed reduction... or even tie it TO shield, like .01% reduced cast speed & attack speed per 10 MS ( numbers pulled out of thin air... i'd put more thought into it if was actually solidifying it lol )

[steady grotto]

i like

find stacking fun sure

but when it's the only thing to do

it just completely disrespects honest buildmaking

[gloomy night]

feels more like D3 sets

[steady grotto]

like i could go get minmax godroll 2h weapon with 700 damage and it would never compare to the few "lol stack ms or strength or health"

i really hate skills that just have entirely uncapped stats

that scale off of your health or ms

even asura, the example i gave scales with energy technically

but it is laughably Capped out to your weapon damage

not that you could Ever hit that cap reasonably with how energy is so barebones

[gloomy night]

i think they should all have uncapped stats, especially the ones that scale of energy / mana... i just think that the energy ascendancy needs to get fixed first of all lolol, but also, things that DON'T have obvious scalers like that should still be able to stand on their own and their stats should reflect that

[steady grotto]

that's getting aside the point tho ;-;

i'd prefer if weapon damage was the end all be all for base damage scaling

[gloomy night]

like if you're going to have a skill that scales off something, then other skills should have damage relative to a "slightly higher than average" number of that ( for instance you should make it where a mana stacking skill doesn't become better than just your avg joe blow weapon scaling skill until you get like 3k-4k mana or something )

[steady grotto]

battery can exist but it's probably overtuned still

[gloomy night]

that's fair, if they're going to do that then i would just suggest the same thing i just said, but with the support gems

[steady grotto]

and like yeah there should be some opportunity cost for scaling from another stat because you're basically getting a 2 for 1 special

[gloomy night]

don't make "battery support" or "mageblade" or w/e better than like "fire damage support" or some other competitor until like ~35k es or 3-4k mana or w/e

yea i mean if you're investing all ur defense in 1 stat like MS then you also can't do content that significantly nerfs that... like for all steve says about being "immortal"... that build can definitely die lolol it's far from immortal, and you can be way tankier with only 5k health... just probably also can't get the same kind of DPS

[steady grotto]

the map affixes? i mean they can influence both anyways so i don't think that appiles

[gloomy night]

i know it was mentioned b4 but the REAL problem with ES stacking is the existence of heart of ice in it's current state

[steady grotto]

definitely a biggie ;-;

i get what you mean ya

[ripe surge]

no no its good

i love resonance

[steady grotto]

it was mentioned earlier how str has more synergy with magic and proj on paper

[ripe surge]

it literally does

but what sucked is

im forced to play resonance

to hit magic or projectile

or garden

and garden feels weird and nasty

[steady grotto]

but i think those are made with this vague idea in mind that "these damage types are harder to work with on a strength build"

which...

[ripe surge]

they are

it means i cant use a melee move or anything

im stuck in 1 box of tags

[steady grotto]

i mean more in opportunity cost of the build rather than available options

[ripe surge]

nah resonance is beautiful

it just takes ALOT of skill points

to make it work

so you lose out on alot because of charge recov

[steady grotto]

not that using melee is necessarily like appealing to me at least

oh mkay so that change did goog then

[ripe surge]

are u a weirdo that swings or

a smart and strong individual that uses moves

[steady grotto]

brawler has to unless you have thorns

[ripe surge]

fucking hate sewinging

swinging

sry mid map

[wooden scroll]

personally i prefer crochet

[left tendon]

For balance reasons i'll let you all in on a secret...

If u actually care to click MORE THAN 2 buttons, u can use minstrel skills to get clamor to do about 3-6m dps. Currently my dps with clamor is around 1.6m bc my cd for it is like 2.5-3.5s

Prestissimo / having someone buff me with only minstrel skills allows me to completely nuke basically all ubers.

[ripe surge]

but ur not bard at all so

[left tendon]

If i get an abyssal eye if it's maxed I'll b at 83.6k MS

[left tendon]

#makequakegreatagain

[stray dawn]

remove all caps is a bad idea for whoever suggested it btw

[elder quartz]

Looks to have been Relish.

#1439785149658038332 message

[icy mulch]

the only way to solve all balance issues is to delete build making

[elder quartz]

Reminds me of people doomposting in the patch notes for Grim Dawn, I think it was.

Decrying any balance change, nerf, or bug fix as a malicious act towards the people who make and share builds.

[steady grotto]

personally, i don't really see the connection, as the discussion in this thread has mostly tried to be productive

[elder quartz]

Was referring to this comment.

To be more on topic though, a solution regarding battery may be to either make the penalty scale more with the benefits for higher tier(?) of the support gems or put an effective cap on the max damage conversion.

No idea how that could be accomplished though

[left tendon]

I think if he just cuts the strength of it by -50% or maybe to start cutting it by -25%.

(Make it scale .75% is 1/2 current)
(Make it scale 1.0% is 2/3 current)

Obviously I’m biased and apparently MS has been ultra strong for a while now. Honestly the dps ppl hit with 45k MS is fairly reasonable.

I’m only hitting 2.2-4.4m dps bc my MS is top 0.01% of players.
(2.2m dps on Holy fire)
4.4m dps WITH someone buffing me in an uber fight. I do not like clicking more than 2 buttons. So I refuse to use hard mechanics to make me do more dmg xD

[thorn shuttle]

it was a joke, hes the MnS mod maker lol

[elder quartz]

Yes, i know.

[gloomy night]

can you explain why raising caps to 4-5x the amount ( basically only obtainable through exploits ) would be a bad idea
or why having a jewel cap is a good idea?

[stray dawn]

cuz then ppl would hyperfocus and break balance prob even easier

as has happened in this pack and previous

[left tendon]

0.7 - 0.9 had its large share of crazy, broken skills.
(I returned to the patch a couple of months ago to see how much changes from 0.7-1.0)

I’ve heard of the crazy Detonate minions / quake chaining and completely nuking everything.
1.0 had 3-4 completely busted builds.

All 3 main people for the builds hit over 3m dps (that’s ALSO only from builds that ppl were willing to share)

Currently, in 1.1, I’m only at 2.2m dps on holy fire. Chicken mentioned he hit 10m dmg in a single hit with chronobreak. But he’s one of them that makes the broken builds.

[stray dawn]

broken builds are fine if its like, specifically built for it but it shouldnt be just too too easy

like

end game stuff will always be breakable

but the point is to limit it

[left tendon]

That pushes ppl to certain skills though.
Let’s say you’re on a server, you’d want to maintain competitive with ppl who are zooming through maps, making a ton of currency.

So in terms of “wanting to play efficiently” it’s kinda locking you in place.

[stray dawn]

uh

yeah

theres always going to be a most efficient

unless we make everything the same

most xp per hour, most gold per hour

[left tendon]

I really wish Mahj would just uncap like 1 spell in every class.

Hopefully the spell has AOE tag so it CAN ACTUALLY be competitive

[stray dawn]

the point is to balance it in such a way there isnt something so egregious that its that way or no way

also my point of "people will optimize the fun out of the game" is incredibly true in ur statement

finding most efficient is fine but expecting it to be the only way to play is inherently flawed

[gloomy night]

like if i can invest into damage somewhere... you're worried i might do that?

scawwy

[gloomy night]

optimizing the game for some people is HOW it becomes fun

it's why a lot of ppl complain about D3 but love PoE

[stray dawn]

and yeah thats fine

no one is saying it isnt lol

but the point that the entire game should be about the end game big numbers is flawed imo

same way i dont like the idea of justm playing an mmo to insta level to max level

this is literally the entire point of what i said: you are optimizing the fun out of your own game by pushing the game to the limit and then complaining youve reached the limit, like ???

[left tendon]

I wanted to push MS to the highest physically possible, so there’s kinda always a goal. (Even if it takes me 2 weeks to get 58 magic shield)

So that’s how I have fun in the game

[steady grotto]

spoken perfectly tbh, i couldn't have said it better myself really

[gloomy night]

wait who is complaining they've reached the limit? the only thing that i've personally done that comes close to that is suggesting that if the devs thing that builds are "too OP" at end game when min max'd and hundreds of hours of farming for the loot for them, then that should be inspiration to add more & harder end game content to the pack, not to gut everything that's good

I don't think steve is complaining that he's reached the limit, i could be wrong here, but i think he's just trying to find the upper limits of what's possible... since there isn't really much else to do, and that's what is fun for him to do right now 👍

my point about the D3 tho has nothing to do with "end game big numbers" it's about the choice being removed because of the lack of depth and answers all being provided to you
if everything was just "skill does 100% of weapon damage" then biggest weapon damage = win
having alternate ways of scaling things leads to more build diversity, if crit is capped at 400% then you get to the point where every crit build should just get to 400% and there is no thought beyond that.
If it was capped at like 1500% or something then it'd probably never actually be reasonably achieved, but it'd allow players to decide if they wanted to skip out on life or attack speed or other stats in order to get more and more crit damage.
I don't know why you think there needs to be such low/moderate caps on certain stats, but also have such disparity between the skills themselves AND have the skills be gated behind the different classes

[left tendon]

I can hit 90k with the Abyssal eye with 10% more MS.
Then i can hit like 92-95k with equippping BiS boots

[ripe surge]

^

[left tendon]

87.5K

[ripe surge]

^

[gloomy night]

pointing up at a strawman lol

unless maybe i missed the part where steve is complaining that he's reaching the limit

but also raiden was somehow responding to me when it had nothing to do with anything i was talking about

[ripe surge]

It’s funny

[left tendon]

I'm not complaining. I'm actively seeking it.
I've said in VC that's it's sad to only have 2 choices, but I completely understand it's my fault as I love chasing numbers nobody else has gotten legit.

Pushing upward limits always makes me happy. Maybe once i start seeing only 10-50 MS change I'll slow down. But currently my goal is to hit the 100k mark. (I just surpassed my goal of 83k)

I hit the Watcher's eye that gives +% more MS
But it's 7.4 instead of 10.0

[ripe surge]

Ts build min maxed 🥀 ofc its gonna have 900000 magic shield

[gloomy night]

yea i just donno why everyone popping off about some random ass strawman raiden was saying earlier lol like i donno who dude was talkin to

YoU aRe OpTiMiZiNg ThE fUn OuT oF yOuR oWn GaMe By PuShInG tHe GaMe To ThE lImIt AnD tHeN cOmPlAiNiNg YoUvE rEaChEd ThE lImIt, LiKe ???

[left tendon]

Ok this is getting off topic of what this thread is supposed to b for. Which is Showcasing my upper limits as well as discussing / debating ideas to nerf MS where it's NOT a nuclear blast.

Also as an avenue to explain why skills aren't balanced, but in a respectful manor.

[ripe surge]

I’m joking I just thought it was funny

Cuz it’s somewhat true

[gloomy night]

sry i came in pre-tilted :^)

[ripe surge]

Tho I think being able to make such a high number

And min maxing adds diversity for people to play however they want

[tacit ibex]

Yep, allowing min-max is good. I'm sure Mahj got what he needed from this. Magic shield just way overtuned compared to health obviously, and too few sources of crit at the moment.

[thorn shuttle]

how is it a strawman when you brought it up though? Do you forget about what you said? No one is stalking about steve guy, you're the one who complained about the caps lol

[gloomy night]

i'm not "optimizing the fun out of my own game by pushing the game to the limit and then complaining that i've reached the limit"

i am suggesting that caps be removed as it limits build diversity, there are a ton of caps that i'd advocate for them to be removed that i've never even interacted with

any "fun" that's being removed has nothing to do with me grabbing the max amount allowed of whatever stat lol

[thorn shuttle]

so you made suggestions based off things off pure speculation then. "there are a ton of caps that i'd advocate for them to be removed that i've never even interacted with" Should actually understand the systems first before hand

[gloomy night]

so i don't have to try something to understand how it works based of similar mechanics lol it's not pure speculation...
but also there are still mechanics that i HAVE interacted with that i'm saying they should have their caps removed
i said yesterday the exact opposite of what raiden is suggesting though
https://i.imgur.com/KuXntGz.png

it's not ruining the fun for me to sit around and test builds

or build swap over and over

thankfull it's cheap in the pack cuz that'd probably ruin my fun if i had to re-level every single time i wanted to change classes lol

[proud tide]

I think most of the caps are fine, they're there for a reason and a lot of builds won't reach most of them unless they specifically pertain to your build (at least in regards to stat caps like crit dmg)

I'm not really a fan of some of the capped skills though, such as the ones that scale with mana all being capped

it just feels like other resources don't get to have fun like MS or HP skills do because of their uncapped damage and supports

[gloomy night]

what's the reason for jewels being capped at 9? or magic find being capped at 150%? or increased area of effect being capped at 100%? or crit damage at 400%? or like you said, a lot of the energy & mana scaling skills?
obv i know some caps should exist like block chance or cast speed or cooldown reduction stuff... but others i don't get

[icy mulch]

well the caps are typically things i or mahj decide should be the limit .. for whatever reason. Maybe that's arbitary but the opposite would be no caps, and that'd be something i personally dislike. Typically they serve as guardrails, like yeah, it'd be amazing if i had a team of workers and told them "make sure players cant get above 400% crit damage" but as a solo dev, it's way easier to just slap on a hard cap 🤷‍♂️

[proud tide]

that's fair

the problem with capping everything and then leaving a few sources uncapped is that it becomes very difficult to meaningfully scale damage in the endgame without resorting to using an uncapped skill

which then kinda funnels you into picking up an uncapped skill, support or unique

leaving very few actual options for build diversity

[gloomy night]

yea as i've said b4 i understand wanting a cap as like a "what if someone finds some exploit" like getting food buffs to stack infinite and then u can just get infinite stats... but having caps that are way more obtainable just seems weird to me like what would be so gamebreaking if i did a build that had 10 jewel slots, 462% crit damage and 122% increased aoe

[icy mulch]

maybe not gamebreaking but something i personally wouldnt like. Things like super high aoe i dont want in game, idk about mahj

[gloomy night]

yea I kind of just default to what Puce said... if I can only scale some things to a certain point and others way further... and some skills have good aoe and damage and others feel like melee basic attacks... I feel sort of funneled into playing a select few skills, which is extremely exacerbated by the fact that i might already want to play OTHER things that made me already select 1 or 2 classes

i'm not saying i've tested literally every single thing or have spawned in every perfect combination of gear, but some skills/builds feel like no matter how much love i try to give them... they kinda fall flat

[ripe surge]

more orbs for dif stacking

supports

so ppl can stack different things and use dif skills

ive only see 1 cool build that was unique

and kacie made that with like a beserker build

rest is copy and paste

[steady grotto]

o3o

[ripe surge]

ye i liked ur build alot

in a world of magic shield clones its actually unique

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1440118723531771965/1441762632389623900/caption.webp?ex=6922f996&is=6921a816&hm=6e91cdf218413bdac5c82b395049cbf89dadab83cb5b7cfd129d7fc0c5db96cb&

😂

[steady grotto]

LMAO

[proud tide]

😭

so real

[left tendon]

Looks like I need to come in an show everyone the 26.5k hp build I think I can cook up

(Jk bc you only can get like 2-3 MORE hp scalings)

[fiery arrow]

2 much text

[left tendon]

what for u to go through and read?

Idk what u mean

[fiery arrow]

yes

[icy mulch]

some general balance complaints and not liking stat caps

[left tendon]

I'll respond to the ones I did and I'll say "For Mahj"

For for starters, Forbidden rite having AOE tag please 😉

[left tendon]

Mahj this is the most important one prob

I also wanted to post feedback - I have around 1m consistent dps on holy fire. Dps meter has shown 4.5 a few times though.

On clamor, if i have someone giving me bard buffs, I can hit like 3-8m dps in 1 hit iirc.

Some people are calling for Heart of ice to be nerfed. They don't like how it's a 1%-100% heal nearly instantly.
(If u make it the change you did on Frost nova idk how the balance would feel)
You did kinda gut Chicken's build... So you might gut MOST MS builds with that change. Idk though

[left tendon]

This is balance feedback

Then my original post's feedback. If u click the jump to top button.

[left tendon]

TY TO EVERYONE WHO MADE THIS POSSIBLE. GGWP

101,687

[left tendon]

I won't b trying, but 115-120k is highest I'll hit on Wraeclast

[wet abyss]

give examples

[tacit ibex]

Flamethrower totem 🤣

[tacit tangle]

i just learned poe has a diminishing returns solution for this: inc aoe literally scales area instead of radius

[icy mulch]

can you explain that lol

[tacit tangle]

A = pi*r^2, r = sqrt(A/pi)

[icy mulch]

ahh, so they increase the area, then calculate the radius from it. so the +aoe is way less effective

[tacit tangle]

ya

[left tendon]

That solution would result in devs recalculating AOE spells. IE: if they want to keep holy fire at the current size.

But that’d honestly be a good change.

Also while he’s at that, MIGHT AS WELL add AOE tag to forbidden rite…

[ripe surge]

Forbidden doesn’t deserve it

[tacit tangle]

no need, you can sqrt the multiplier to radius for the same effect

but it would require aoe nodes to be rebalanced

that’s not too hard though. set a baseline of how many aoe nodes/clusters you expect a typical build to take, square the value from that, and adjust all nodes proportionately

[tacit tangle]

do you think it’s strong? ppl were doubting it

[ripe surge]

could be

depending on tags

it has magic tag

and prog

if u str stack

[tacit tangle]

yea exactly

[ripe surge]

resonance is the best skill in the game

🥀

its projectile magic and physical

and it gives charges

and its multi hit

[tacit tangle]

tru

[ripe surge]

ts does like 400k times 8

when i use it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1432925252308041738/1446514872656466071/9DFFC131-EB57-4824-A363-F7EB3BD8FE4F.png?ex=69398974&is=693837f4&hm=5dc98ed44af2ab9e0be211db25f29de208dd9b644d8473511ec271a5dd2a5cad&

forbidden has the tags of a goat...

i gues aoe would be nice

its just weird to hit

[tacit tangle]

but i also like chaos str stack because of death lich’s double regen

[ripe surge]

oh

uh

ascendant would prob be better

u would prob go necro bard

[tacit tangle]

i’m necro pally for passives and blessed aim

but i want to see what it can do with actual str gear

i don’t feel like grinding endgame in cte myself

also why ascendant

oh it's +25% strength, i thought it was 15

death lich is still 24.2% more chaos total

both look valid

[ripe surge]

@tacit tangle

i could try it later

when i feel less lazy

yeah

[tacit tangle]

sick

[ripe surge]

snowballs better

i wanna test but god i hate uh

switching classes n stuff

relish showed me

i wonder if zombies would be good actually

[gloomy night]

p good

[ripe surge]

is that single hit

[gloomy night]

ye

[ripe surge]

hmm

not worth then

[gloomy night]

[ripe surge]

cuz

reso does like

6m dps per sec

[gloomy night]

oh yea, maybe with YOUR gear

[ripe surge]

that is true

[gloomy night]

i had like 670 str

[tacit tangle]

oh yea ascendant is surely better with pillar

[ripe surge]

and u can double pillar

and get like crazy ah weapon dmg

[ripe surge]

OHH

i forgot

immortal king is crazy

all the dmg comes from 2 things

[gloomy night]

yea you can probably get like 10m dps

also if you're doing your bard shit, probably even more?

[ripe surge]

yeah

i wen tto element

and i can get like 13

if i really really try

the main dmg buffs

are these 2

buffing ur song skill dmg is so crazy

[gloomy night]

u should've rolled it up to 4 before corrupting

😛

[ripe surge]

its 9.1*9

[ripe surge]

i actually was like

i said in my head this shit isnt gonna hit

so ima just use the orb and call it a day

very lazy mistkae

i have this one

but its not as good cuz no str

but the cheese comes from uh

tourmaline

these both are defensive tag

which means u can survive the overheat resource regen gutt

which lets u have overheat on forever which is crazy

[gloomy night]

clever use of mechanics interacting with each other?

better nerf!

[ripe surge]

deadass

the only issue with this build

is that you have to cast

Magic Circle
power chord resonance Buff 1
power chord resonance Buff 2
power chord resonance Buff 3
power chord resonance Pretissmo
Swing sword

Loop

i just macro it tho so its lowkey braindead

[tacit tangle]

cheats

jail

[ripe surge]

not rly cheatin

@gloomy night @tacit tangle

[river shadow]

Speed hax

[ripe surge]

oh my god another chance to land a corruption

[gloomy night]

clean

[ripe surge]

well igive up for today

[gloomy night]

i'm surprised you're still playing

lol

[ripe surge]

idk

i get on for like hour or 2

but now i get on for like 20m and get off

idk what 2 do

[left tendon]

I figured out something…

This really is like the first patch where we get to feel out what TRUE end game is..
Previously you were just hoping that you drop something with 3-5 mythic rolls and then quality it and call it a day.

Now we get to make items with 5-7 mythic stats, try to roll the rolls to be within 95% and then we say “that’s acceptable”

Hitting 3m+ is probably expected by Mahj as we’re literally pushing the min-max to upper limits.

I’m curious how he’ll balance it.

My hope is HE PUTS OUT A POLL
He does @ everyone and simply does a poll of
“how many hours have you put into your world in your play through”

Bc I know for a fact some ppl quit after act 5 bc the game leaves you for like 40+ lvls.
Then ppl quit at 88-92 bc they got bored of mapping and final dims aren’t really fun. You might do them once for completion / maybe return to twilight for the mining part of it.
Ig otherside is BiS for warden farm but by that time you’ll probably have all 100 heart containers.

Basically I’m saying- I have no idea how to balance around the fact that many players won’t ever hit 100 and get into the top 1-5% of gear.

Bc the fundamentals of “160% of weapon” CAPPED. Results in certain spells NEVER being able to hit what others can.

So those aren’t viable for endgame.

With this being the first major patch of having the ultra targeted endgame crafting, I think it’ll b 1-2 years before the 1-100 grind is truly what Mahj has envisioned

[magic dawn]

I don't know how feasible it would be but I think adding 2 more dimensions/quests BEFORE twilight forest such as Atum and Aether would help reduce that "last mile" grind to 100. I do think that 80-99 grind is rough, it's map after map after map; but like you said the level 100's pushing BiS is a small minority.

Getting more people to 100 would be nice as more people can provide more feedback about endgame as well.

[thorn shuttle]

idk if that would necessarily help because once you hit maps, its just the fastest way to level. adding new dimensions would still be slower than just doing maps

sure quest exp, but the time it takes to complete a quest you couldve ran multiple maps making more exp than it took to complete the quest

[magic dawn]

If the goal is to have players run maps @ 55, then I think you hit the goal. Quests can be used to help break up the monotony of running maps to level, then running the same maps, just stronger enemies, to grind endgame. Also, quest XP can be tweaked/set a bit higher to make on par or a bit less than map running.

[thorn shuttle]

i do agree on more end game content but idk if dimensions would be the best way of doing it. cause the more dimensions you add the more samey they start to feel if that makes sense.

I feel like new content in a different form might be better than more dimensions if its to break up monotony.

Even obelisks and harvests are very similar to just mapping.

[icy mulch]

things would have to change from killing mobs to.. different types of survival in different dimensions or something like that lol

[magic dawn]

I disagree on the dimensions being the same, I feel the ones in the pack currently are a good spread and Atum would be a nice fit as it's a different feel. Now, there are some modpacks that add ALL different dimensions as is and it's terrible. I don't know how feasible it would be but, it seems like the maps are "room" based for generation purposes but having a time when community members can maybe each make a room(s) and have those all combined in one map would be cool. But yea, endgame is kind of monotonous but I know I am in the minority so saying, "hey make it fun for me!" Might not be the best time investment.

[icy mulch]

i remember we had more maps before but the complaint was 'i want to do the most efficient map, but i have to reroll all these other yucky inefficient maps'

[thorn shuttle]

owl had a cool roguelike mode idea but would take a lot to implement its definitely cool though

[icy mulch]

in the end it'd have to be on the same scale as the map dimension mod .. just different

[thorn shuttle]

like you cant take shit from normal play into it, but you can take stuff you earned from the mode out into regular play

[magic dawn]

There will always be what I call extreme min/max, ultra efficient runners but I feel those are the .1% minority.

Or have an item that can be combined with a map to get a certain layout

[thorn shuttle]

lol we got map names now but we still get map reroll complaints

[thorn shuttle]

layout as in map type or actual map layout? because if its the latter it wont be a thing for current maps as they are randomized

[magic dawn]

Something like the entangled items from obelisk maps are a good idea, to where something is in there to choose map

[magic dawn]

I say layout but I mean theme/name

[thorn shuttle]

ah, that might be broken unless there's an exlusion list of maps you can obtain that way.
without the exlusion literally everyone would only run moo map

and removes the whole point of "map rarity" by doing so

[magic dawn]

Yea, no that should def be a non craft able rare chance map

[icy mulch]

i think the only solution is make each map have exclusive loot

the 'everything drops everything' just creates a problem where efficiency is the only thing that matters

[magic dawn]

While that sounds good, is that feasible/efficient to do with y'all s resources/time.

And it would be nice knowing that a map will only drop say plate items

Or staves

And facilitate trading maps

[icy mulch]

there's always ways to be more efficient-dev-wise

[thorn shuttle]

another idea but more work to implement is having another end game alternative to maps. then each map doesnt have to get its own loot, but there would be different content that provides different purposes.

Content with a purpose for doing it over others might break up the monotony.

[icy mulch]

thats the same idea

[thorn shuttle]

but the other issue is actually having rewards for the content

[icy mulch]

its simple. 1 content can drop gems, other content can drop runes etc

[magic dawn]

I do like Kekw's (never thought I'd type that in my life) exclusive loot to certain maps, there's certainly enough variety of both

[magic dawn]

But what about relics now? If gems and runes get thrown in to exclusivity, it'd been a loot pinata if the map and relics stacked lol

[thorn shuttle]

sort of, i guess main difference in this case, is would be not having to do the same thing.

result would be the same but, content wise would be different. But that's why i said more work cause your idea uses what's already there to achieve the result.

Im just trying to think of things outside of maps cause that's what at least penny was talking about, avoiding having to do maps for everything. Even if we split the loot between maps to be different, you still would be running tons of maps.

[icy mulch]

exclusive loot solves that, just need to think what to use for it.. the entire reason we focused on maps though is because everything else in MC can be cheesed

[magic dawn]

I think the different maps for different loot would be a start if quick to implement

[icy mulch]

like we can make frost gems drop with fishing.. yay content.. except everyone can auto fish somehow

[thorn shuttle]

yea anti build helps remove majority of the cheese aswell as map rules like banned items etc.

[magic dawn]

Lol

[icy mulch]

and even with no building and banned items, sometimes shit goes through the cracks and people exploit it

[magic dawn]

Always will

I've yet to meet anything in life that is 100% unexploitable

[icy mulch]

but banned items just places the responsibility on the modpack

[magic dawn]

Games or life

[icy mulch]

its still the least cheesable system yet

[magic dawn]

True

[icy mulch]

just boring to play for months on end i guess

[stray dawn]

is robert fighting ppl

i havent read

i havent had a good robert fight in a while

[magic dawn]

Well, at the next big CTE dev summit, keep in mind these ideas

[icy mulch]

they are already dead

[magic dawn]

Nah, big circle jerk is all

[thorn shuttle]

lol nah not really he's been giving good points

its been pretty chill and civil

[stray dawn]

can u tldr

[magic dawn]

1. Make the last bit of leveling from 80's-99 not be a drag.
2. Maps from 55-forver are monotonous and something to break it up is needed.
3. Maps are being chosen/run for efficiency, despite the wide variety.
4. Robert brought up the idea of specific map themes having specific loot to push more people to run a variety of maps if targeting say, plate armor, gems, etc.

My suggestion for the leveling drag is maybe adding Atum before Twilight Forest as questing does break up mapping.

[stray dawn]

is atum 1.20.1

i thought it was like 1.18

i looked at it long ago

[magic dawn]

Oh, and then Robert pushed me into a corner and told me he would beat me up if I didn't give him my pepperoni pizza lunachable.

[magic dawn]

Yep, not 1.20.1 damn

[thorn shuttle]

if atum is 1.18. you did suggest aether and i am a sucker for that mod lol. only issue is someone has to remove the tool exclusivity like we did in blue skies.

or else we cant like mine in that dimension with other tools aswell as cant damage the mobs without aether gear. idk how hard that was to do for blue skies

[magic dawn]

Aether is showing for 1.20.1 and for neoforge

[ripe surge]

Uh

[ripe surge]

I think it’s balanced

Except for other builds not being able to hit like 2m + like battery

Every build can be good if you have good armor

And making armor is a fun endgame

You can’t hit crazy numbers unless you make good armor

So balancing it doesn’t really make any sense considering u need near perfect gear to hit the dmg

[tacit tangle]

i think the fundamental issue with battery is that it allows too many layers of scaling

you're taking one heavily scalable value and turning it into a multiplier for another

and the fact that its converting a scaled value into an increase means balancing it for 6 digit MS beasts will make it awful for everyone else

it should be flat dmg imo

[left tendon]

well for example, health in POE can scale to like 12k with a few builds. Then some top hp builds can be like 15k-17k.
Then ES enjoyers can be at 32k-44k.

Those values are nearly IDENTICAL in terms of ES vs HP.

[tacit tangle]

top end ES in PoE can hit like 90k

and the main ES to dmg scaling is ephemeral edge which is flat

[left tendon]

Wym by this?? u mean like "added magic dmg equal to 1.5% magic shield"??
Bc the additive number goes up with magic shield on abilities. IE: 100k MS = 20x multi on base number.

[tacit tangle]

yes

[left tendon]

Oh i was thinking more along the lines of archmage mana + ms stack. I've never seen a pure ms stack in poe before actually

[tacit tangle]

ephemeral edge trickster with doryani's prototype merc was the giga build last league

[left tendon]

I would love if he reowkred the dmg calc on the battlemage stuff.
If we can hit 30k mana we can hit like 600 es flat.
Which would be AMAZING if we can scale it with "more" modifiers xDDDD

Battlemage is baiscally doryani's prototype levels of OP. Too bad lots of lightning skills suck

[tacit tangle]

with the mana to MS unique?

and wdym about the damage calc

[left tendon]

Order of operations.

The MS to mana conversion on battlemage happens after your more modifiers are applied.
So if u have 10000 ms, you’ll end up having +200 or 10200 instead of having the 200 scaled with your more modifiers too.

[left tendon]

Battlemage ascendency.

[tacit tangle]

that has armor as mana and health as mana

[left tendon]

I’ll look in a few. I thought there’s mana to MS conversion somewhere and it’s really bad

[tacit tangle]

arcanist has it

but yea i don't like the conversion rules

and damage conversion works the opposite way

[ripe surge]

This shit needs a gutt

Str and int need a nerf

Dex should be on top

🥹

Crazy idea I know this is a horrid take but make crit dmg scale off dex instead of str cuz they are nimble n shit