#What dev help to hire and How...

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

cerulean orchid
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Hello,
I am planning to hire dev help but I am a confused.
I really value the people here and would appreciate your views / your questions to help me think this through and clarify what would how help me most and how to ask for it... .

Two distinct activity:
1-Overall 'tech' review to understand what I really need to do to actually be able to release my game one day (I lack experience, and don't want to see my mistakes in 1 year)
2-An extra pair of hands on gameplay tasks (requires both gamedesign + dev skills, very iterative, very collaborative)

Project is quite big... at least to my standards (250 objects, 760 scripts (660 from libraries :P), 80 to 120K lines of code ..

-To me this seems two different people ?
-I think I need 1- before 2- ?
-I hire 1- because I can't do it... so I am not even sure what to ask? and what I need now (or can postpone until I am more confident with the project)

Thx for reading (and maybe helping:P)

proven idolBOT
limber yacht
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counting semicolons is an interesting way of counting lines of code 🤔

fallen badge
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It definitely is

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I've used something like this in the past to analyze a project line by line

limber yacht
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i'd estimate that's probably 50% of the actual number??

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You can tell how big my project is lol

A_Pioneers_Journey.yyp_1.png
cerulean orchid
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But nonethelss

cerulean orchid
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Did you drag in the whole folder

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Or the project yyp itself?

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If you did the former, that's interesting

cerulean orchid
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the .yyp

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If you did the latter, that's why lol

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Yeah

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Step out of the project folder

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And then drag the whole folder

cerulean orchid
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😛

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cerulean orchid
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oh yes it IS written 😛

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Easy to miss I'd say

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Don't blame you

cerulean orchid
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Total lines of GML code: 121416

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I have a lot of external .json included files with my level data... maybe it is counting that also.

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Thas is a nice tool

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even if the how to use instructions are not clear 😜

fallen badge
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Hahah yeah

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It's not accurate for me too

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Because I have a bunch of game code that's loaded externally via catspeak

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And it doesn't read those 😛

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It's a neat lil tool, quick to look up some statistics

cerulean orchid
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yes thank you very much for pointing this out !

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No worries

limber yacht
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ooph 33% of the actual number

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interesting

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good estimate though

cerulean orchid
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mmm... gave me the same number without my json files

fallen badge
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I don't believe it reads any of your included file data

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Just the project assets

cerulean orchid
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yep figures did not change with / without included files

limber yacht
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to answer your actual question, (1) is a consultant, (2) is a co-developer

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can be the same person, could be different people

fallen badge
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In some more specific cases, more than two people

cerulean orchid
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I hope I have scoped my game properly to have no more than 2 😛 Budget-wise

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I like to think there's plenty of programmers out there with varying prices

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Provided that the task itself is equally worth that price (in your honest opinion)

cerulean orchid
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yes me too. And there are lots of good reasons for varying prices...

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Indeed sometimes it is the proper price but you can consider it's not that valuable to your particular situation (i.e. things I can do by myself in mycase etc...)

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In this case I'm convinced I need someone way more saavy that I am

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To avoid me making stupid mistakes that will costs me more at the end

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more money / more time

fallen badge
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A price to everything, whether it's time or money

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But yeah beyond that, it just comes down to what you need done

cerulean orchid
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Part of my issue is that I have a list of things I need done but I'm not sure this is the proper list. I mean I pushed a game to itch, a tiny dead cells clones, It worked, I had analytics, I managed some updates... So I planning based on this experience. But often times when I see discussion, I realize there is a whole world beyond that I'm not aware of

fallen badge
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I like to think that every project is unique and has its own set of defined rules and ideas in mind

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Granted, there's some common rules and things you should follow, but a lot of things in development does not need to be picked up or utilized 1:1

cerulean orchid
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Yes It's what I like about indie dev...

fallen badge
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Indie dev can have the same kind of development professionalism as an AAA game studio, but it's just rarer because well, we're not pockets full of money enough to buy 20x Lamborghinis

cerulean orchid
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At least, you come up with your own way of doing stuff. It always work. 9/10 you discover later that there was a standard approach that was way better (peformence, gamefeel etc....) and 1 time out of 10, you have came up with something that is actually smarter... at least in your case

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Overall, flexibility is mostly common yeah

cerulean orchid
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True!

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But if it works, there isn't a need to change it outright, unless it isn't what you like to be

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Like

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I kept on seeing decal systems made for GameMaker that only uses surfaces, particles, or a dozen instances that stay alive for basically "forever"

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I don't like those systems, it feels very wasteful on performance and memory (in both cases)

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So I've made my own decal system, that just uses vertex buffers

fallen badge
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You don't need something overkill for everything

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Or to be done right every time

cerulean orchid
limber yacht
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what game is it Michel?

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i've lost track of what everyone is making

cerulean orchid
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lol

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I don't blame you Juju

cerulean orchid
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and a lot of good games currently

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I've lost track of what you're working on

cerulean orchid
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you wouldn't like my initial design idea when I decided to make it

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If the resource already exists, then the "best" solution is whatever someone can grab online

cerulean orchid
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true, and as often sayd 'If it works it works'

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Exactly

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I can't comment much on my own decal system, but I do know who has integrated mine into their games 😉

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cerulean orchid
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art is all placeholders and audio even worst (fear of judgment 😛 )

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The best kind of indiedev progress: dev assets

cerulean orchid
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cerulean orchid
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ah 😛

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This was way back when it started out in development

limber yacht
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mmok from the perspective of a "tech read" you'll want to define the release scope of your project. PC, console, mobile, business plan etc.

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don't need to go into huge amounts of detail but knowing where you want to go is crucial

fallen badge
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Yeah, kind of like an end goal sort of deal

limber yacht
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i would expect that person to (after signing an NDA) read through the code and compile the game, do some light sanity check QA, and then prepare a report

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a detailed report can take days

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a report would identify risk areas, technological shortcomings, and recommendations for solutions where possible

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the report would also highlight good areas too. i've read a few that are 100% negative and this isn't helpful

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carrot and stick, folks

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such a report would largely be unconcerned with design other than how it impacts the choice of technology. to a certain extent you need to "know how to read" these reports. a debrief is helpful

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Q&A session basically

cerulean orchid
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interesting.... and I was thinking maybe I could ask he/she could size the 'actions' and prioritize in time (not the exact planning but in what order to approach them)

limber yacht
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prioritizing the order that things get done is not usually within the remit of a consultancy

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they'd advise on severity of risk

cerulean orchid
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ah ok

limber yacht
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but ultimately you are the one who is managing the project. a consultant isn't gonna tell you how to make your sausage, just where the gristle is

cerulean orchid
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lol

limber yacht
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at the end of the day, a consultant can make a really cool plan for fixing your game but if you 1) don't agree! or 2) don't have the time or money then their plan might end up being pointless

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you'd be paying for someone to advise you beyond the extent of their knowledge, basically

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if you want a production consultancy (which is what you're sort of asking for) then that's a separate thing and you wouldn't find toooo many people who'd do tech and production at the same time

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they do exist, and they're known as "overconfident producers" or "opinionated programmers"

cerulean orchid
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I guess I can also clarify constraints as per my deployment budget/planning to make sure the report is useful

limber yacht
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yep! that is essential

cerulean orchid
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It was / is one of my concern, that the recommandations just make sense in a general sense but not to me...

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mmm.. interesting

limber yacht
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the more you can share about your goals and current situation the more accurate things will be

cerulean orchid
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(meaning I'm thinking)

limber yacht
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obvs ... sign an NDA

cerulean orchid
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ah yes thanks

limber yacht
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please don't just trust people, especially if they're a publisher

cerulean orchid
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We don't trust publishers

fallen badge
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Especially if they look like me, or Juju, with a moustache

cerulean orchid
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what...

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😛

limber yacht
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fake nose, glasses, weird chin

cerulean orchid
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I hear you

fallen badge
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You may trust us, but we shouldn't be exempted from an NDA of course lol

limber yacht
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one huuuundred percent

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had two people talk to me recently about business plans and i'm like "yo you wanna NDA?" and they're like "nah lmao"

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🤦

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Hey

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They're just giving you free trade secrets

limber yacht
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nice to be trusted but woof they are gonna get played one day

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Definitely

limber yacht
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anything you feel like you wanna add Tab?

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thanks for givin me the space to chat my thing

fallen badge
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Always bby ❤️

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I think what you said is good, somethings I did not consider!

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Always good to take notes 🙂

cerulean orchid
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So I'll write a 'hire' post looking for a positive consultant without moustache that can point me where the gristle is

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👍

limber yacht
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as for job 2 ... that's a wider area. because you're looking for someone to be inside your development loop, you're really looking for skill as much as personality

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Yeah, definitely someone who has experience, and can adapt to your codebase

cerulean orchid
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That would also mean knowing things like, naming conventions, whether you prioritize spaces or tabs for indenting (some programmers don't care, Juju loves his spaces and I love my tabs)

cerulean orchid
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in a world where I pay room mates

fallen badge
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There's a sort of project guideline that gets involved at that stage

cerulean orchid
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Hah no

cerulean orchid
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shoot

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Tabular came from something that no one expects

cerulean orchid
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listening...

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||Xbox Live name generator||

cerulean orchid
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is it an actual thing

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I'm not THAT creative lol

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Yes

cerulean orchid
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the prehistory of chatgpt then

fallen badge
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When my parents bought my siblings and I an Xbox 360, I made myself an account

cerulean orchid
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'give me a name'

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Xbox Live gave me "TabularElfXXXX"

cerulean orchid
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LOL

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(The Xs are numbers in this case)

cerulean orchid
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and you keep it. First go

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Yeah

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It was nice for a gaming name

cerulean orchid
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You were in a hurry to play also 😛

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I was like 10? 12?

cerulean orchid
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depends on the X... 😛

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Yeah 12

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I didn't really care too much lmao

cerulean orchid
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TabularElf666

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I just liked to get on CoD: Black Ops Zombies

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Oh no!

fallen badge
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Some project managers (and or leaders) will also have a contribution guideline

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Some people just push to a branch and then add that to main

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Others you'll see do a branch -> Pull Request -> review

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It's a bit more of the ittybitty details there, but it's the kind of things you want to make sure that whoever you're hiring, knows what to follow and what you expect

cerulean orchid
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yes it's something I have captured from another hire post: "Define the principles of a collaboration pipeline including planning, acceptance and integration (=source control)."

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I grab the concept because I am delivering 'big' projects but I am not git proficient enough, working alone for now.

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But yes thanks. That's an item I'll add to the "checklist"

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and when I think about it... it's more here that I am concerned about NDA

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Yeah NDA is the big one

cerulean orchid
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I mean for the no moustache consultant, he/she will deliver expertise... and cannot steal me much appart from idea

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The one you want to have covered first imo

fallen badge
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Moreso like copying the idea of a homework, and then tweaking the idea 😂

cerulean orchid
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But in this case, at this step, for the 'gameplay' colleague it will be closer to the end... More stuff. And also I need to make IP clear to go to commercialization.

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I am from those who say that the idea has limited value, what brings value is realization, making it an actual thing and a GOOD thing

fallen badge
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Ideas are abundant at the end of the day. Could get an idea from anywhere. Execution is the hard part!

cerulean orchid
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yep

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And sometimes ideas seem smart at start and as you move on with execution your realize they are not that good

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oh shoot 16:42 ... haircut is waiting for me

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Thank you so much for your advices !!!

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🫡

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No worries! Happy to chat 🙂

cerulean orchid
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Good luck!!!

red rune
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Yukyo has left a big single player viby platformer hole in my heart that needs filling.

cerulean orchid
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Hello Gleb

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Currently walking towards the cut but I’ll come back to you

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I will have to make sure that you wear no moustache 🥸 😁😁

fallen badge
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Or a monocule, or a top hat, or with a nice fancy suit

red rune
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Neither of those for sure lol.

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I’ll take a selfie if needed 😀

cerulean orchid
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Freshly cut...

cerulean orchid
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I am away next week but we can discuss when I come back... I have a rough list of what I need I will share with you

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At the end of the day, I'll post something on the jobs_and_biz

red rune
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Sounds good.

snow fractal
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I believe there's more to say about task 1 than what was already mentioned.

If you haven't already, I believe you need to identify the minimal viable game first (it seems that you're doing that right now). A consultant with some background in project management and/or game design can help with that as well (more the former than the latter). The more you can prepare for such a discussion (also in writing), the better.

This becomes the input for scoping and prioritizing your work packages (requires both project management and technical input), as well as a technical assessment to check whether your current code base can handle the requirements and expected complexity (if I understand correctly, this is one of your main concerns).

What irks me a little is that the latter requires getting familiar with the codebase, something that can be very time-consuming and has to be done by anyone taking on task 2 as well. So perhaps ideally, the person doing the tech review is also the one dealing with its findings. Depends on their rates, obviously, but codebase assessment usually is an iterative process as well, so it's nice if you have someone who can adapt the recommendations while they're working on it.

But finally, you also hinted that you want the publishing angle covered. I think you need to be more specific there, and perhaps even consult someone else for these aspects, especially if it's about budget, costs, marketing, market analysis, and so on.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

cerulean orchid
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Thank you for this! That is helpful.

Sorry if I was unclear... I am not looking for advices on the publishing part... It may come one day. I meant for the Game to be technically ready for what comes after release: mainly with updates and such.

So the MVP question is a good question. Depends on what you call a MVP... I have defined milestones that requires bigger and bigger scope / features as the game progresses: Gameplay playtest / Level playtest / First Vertical...
I would say that I am trying to reach First Vertical with…
1-something that really is a First Vertical and that will not require me to rework everything because I did not plan it to scale or because I forgot something.
2-an efficient level design pipeline meaning (= levels are quick to build and the engine handles the rest)
mmm... That's more or less the brief I would say. Thanks for your questions and comments, this helps claryfing how I can ask it.

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As regard to scope, I have identify scopes for my game at those various stages of progress (for example, I decided I will only need Sentry for the 1st Vertical playtest, not before... or that I will only need to manage achievements after that for feature-ready). All using my vocabulary which may not be the good one. I have plan and I will be happy to share those and discuss with the 'reviewer' because I am sure it's not complete

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And yes making sure my current code base can handle requirements is one of my point. Everything the game needs to run is there but I don’t know what can stay like that and what needs to upgrade. I mean some things are obvious (like I am still prototyping some player’s state and I am sure there has to be smarter way to manage room init) but I am also missing other stuff.
It makes sense that task 2 and task 1 may be done by the same person... I’ll be open to it (but as you say, here the rates come into play). For sure, investing a lot of time understanding the current project, and then investing more time analysing and building a recommandations plan... it make a lot of sense if this person can go on with implementing

snow fractal
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It seems to me that you're on a good track already. When you make your first vertical slice of the game, you are bound to find technical shortcomings. I would try to get there fast, even if it means cutting some corners that work vertically but not horizontally, if that makes sense.
It is so much easier for any third party to do good work if they're aligned with your idea of the game and understand all the technical requirements.

The asset/level pipeline is the important next step after that to scale the game horizontally, so that's also a solid plan.

Vocabulary really is difficult and I would always make sure everyone operates on the same definitions. For example, it's already very easy to think of an MVP being the same as a vertical slice, but there are differences and everyone draws their lines slightly differently.

Anywho, perhaps that helps narrowing down the areas where you'd seek outside help a little bit.