PHILOSOPHY CHANNEL

[jade star]

Besides evil is a human construct im pretty sure a god doesnt have values

To him words like evil or lie are meaningless

He merely acts

[wanton lava]

God has to balance many different infinite qualities and anything is by necessity not contingency, so He is unfree by def 2

[wanton lava]

Evil is the absence of good

[jade star]

For humans

[wanton lava]

Axiomatic

[jade star]

Well then how is a God limited by humans values which dont affect him nor exist to Him

[wanton lava]

Objective moral values exist

And any quality of a free being applies infinitely to God

Ex) power or wisdom

Both are human traits but can be sinulated

Simulated*

[jade star]

They can be simulated but there is no reason for a God to abide by them,as you said He merely acts.We have given him the value of absolute good but thats entirely our perspective of how He is.I believe that a god would dictate his own values not based on anything else other than himself since He would be the highest standard

[wanton lava]

The rules we can observe are from Him

[jade star]

Define rules

[wanton lava]

Quantities of God's infinite nature

[jade star]

Ok so if hes able to create rules how are you arguing he isnt free

He has infinite nature but cant utilize it?

[hexed raptor]

Nice status

[wanton lava]

Ty

[wanton lava]

Well, once He made the rules, according to you, He became unfree after following them

[jade star]

Ok so what you are telling me is because God has to follow rules or be absolute good he isnt free due to the fact he can never act evil in any capacity correct?

[wanton lava]

Yes

He doesn't have options

Which is required for your definition

My purpose is to show you ad absurdum that your definition is too strict

[jade star]

Oh thats what you mean

Well thats cause i never actually thought about someone like God as an arguement

Ok so it would be the same but with your current abilities in mind

[wanton lava]

Yeah, I couldn't really argue that we had your definition, merely that it was too strict

[jade star]

No no it makes sense i understand it now

There is still other factors like rules,place of birth money,essentially outside factors that can also affect your freedom when considering what you can do

[wanton lava]

Yes, but philosophers generally say that it is the ability to choose otherwise

However there is 2 different definitions

Here are 3 takes

[jade star]

Yeah i almost forgot what started this

Personally im in the libertarianism group because compatibilism simply doesnt make sense to me and sounds extremely vague

And strict determinism is something that i would never believe in because it would be the most depressing thing i could think of,at least to my way of life

[split jungle]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
— George Orwell, Animal Farm

[pastel osprey]

I would posit that God -- supposing he exists -- is significantly less free than us.
For one thing, he cannot lie, we can. That alone is huge

[wanton lava]

I'm still working on that problem of course but I have that conclusion right now

However only a theory

I could be wrong

[split jungle]

@wanton lava if the universe is determined, and we still have free will, why does it matter?

if God already knows who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, why does it matter what we do? How are we free? Because no matter what we do, its already determined where we go? Then are we really free? And if God already knows who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, why are we even here?

We dont know our ending. We’re living it right now, step by step, action by action. That uncertainty is our test. But are we really free to do what we want, if God already knows who goes to hell and who goes to heaven?

[wanton lava]

I don't believe in hell or heaven, I'm not a Christian. I'm a deist

That's one of the reasons why

Although, objective moral values may be outside human comprehension, I'm still working on my theory

[split jungle]

oh, i see

[wanton lava]

Only 12 percent of Americans are deist 😭

2008 ARIS survey

[split jungle]

damn,

alright i might be getting close to my answer

Gods knowledge is not causation. He gave us free will, he didnt force us to sin or to obey. He just knew we would.

But like, if i swing my arm right now, that was written, but at the same time, i made the conscious decision to swing my arm. But if it was already written, how is that free?

[wanton lava]

Well, if you consciously want to do otherwise so you do otherwise, in my mind, you are free

[wanton lava]

You're the author, but God knows what you'll write

If you have a cousin who loves chocolate ice cream and you let him choose the flavor, is he free to choose chocolate?

Yes

Even though he was predicted

Also, freedom is a spectrum in my view, depending on how much internal influence you have

[split jungle]

yes but what if i already knew he was gonna take the ice cream because i determined he would

does that still make it free ?

[split jungle]

but God doesnt predict, he determined

[split jungle]

hmmm that makes it make way more sense

[split jungle]

freedom isn’t the absence of determination, but a mystery within it

I think im close to accepting that we are not free, and im in humility before what lies beyond the mind

Or its just my mind that cant comprehend it, yet.

[wanton lava]

No, He's the reader of the novel

He doesn't intervene

[wanton lava]

By my definition, yes, but that's my take on freedom.

[wanton lava]

The whole debate is semantics on freedom's definition

Here is a 6th argument for free will, and this one is the simplest. It’s actually very easy, but semantics are used by strict determinists.

Freedom is the ability to make choices
We are aware of our choices
We are aware of our thoughts
Proof that you think. If observation is sufficient for proof that you think, it’s sufficient to prove free will
We have free will, because we can observe it.

But choices can be illusions 🤓:
Well, choices are thoughts that we act on, and thoughts exist, so what? Our decision to act on them doesn’t exist? If I want to pick up a cup, doesn't it exist? How could that make sense?

[split jungle]

hmm alright

[split jungle]

well its clear what free will means

I think im overcomplicating it

[split jungle]

this makes a lot of sense

[wanton lava]

I'll send the video, but that's really the main point

He goes into determinism later in the video

https://youtu.be/0Outp4gYuqE?si=Cc6eNkMRkadGhVd7

[lean cloak]

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[verbal whale]

Box Row is the Truth

[lean cloak]

boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowbox boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowbox boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow

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boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowbox boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowbox boxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrowboxrow

[hexed raptor]

🙏

[lean cloak]

Alrighty

[verbal whale]

Box Row is the Truth

[lean cloak]

Box rowed

Bocks road?

[verbal whale]

Let's row outta here fellas

[lean cloak]

🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️

[hexed raptor]

😨 🚣‍♀️

[verbal whale]

🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️🚣‍♀️

[lean cloak]

What is 🚣‍♂️ without 📦

[hexed raptor]

so true

📦 🚣

[lean cloak]

Real philosophers here

To 📦🚣‍♀️ or not to 📦🚣‍♀️

[hexed raptor]

bro ngl

i think we might muted for months

[verbal whale]

🔔 🫸

[lean cloak]

Gonna be sent to the cock and ball torture channel

😔

[verbal whale]

worth it

ti htrow

wait-🚣‍♂️

[lean cloak]

Idk if they’re gonna thROW us out or BOX us away

[wanton lava]

First offense is the pegging chamber

[ornate hazel]

⚰️⚰️⚰️

[ornate hazel]

a counter argument could be just because you notice yourself making choices doesn’t actully mean those choices are free. Like yeah, you're aware of your thoughts but that doesn't prove you chose them right? Stuff pops into your head all the time without you deciding to think it. And when you say, “Well I wanted to pick up the cup,” sure, but where did that want come from? You didn’t actively choose to want it, it just showed up. You feel like you're choosing, but that feeling could just be your brain running its program and you watching it happen. Is that really freedom? Or just being along for the ride kinda thing

ALSO think about this. if your choices were really free, you could’ve picked anything at any moment right? But you didn’t. You picked EXACTLY what your brain, your past, and your environment pushed you toward. If free will was real like that, you'd be able to break totally from your habits or instincts on command, and honestly most people can't. So where’s the freedom in that

Honestyly it’s really just a feeling we mistake for control

[wanton lava]

The will doesn't think of options, the will chooses to follow or not follow

I didn't will to have the thought of picking up my cup, but I willed to not pick it up

[wanton lava]

Most people can't, but it's a spectrum in this view

[verbal whale]

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

[lean cloak]

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

The box and row danced in equal measure, for light and shadow need each other to exist.

[verbal whale]

All boxes are within reach. All you have to do is to row them

[main wagon]

In a world full of boxes be the mamba who rows

[main wagon]

an evil box will try to trap you while a good box will remove your imbalances

[split jungle]

😭

we got the founders of philosophy over here

[ornate hazel]

Holy shit this is peak

[wanton lava]

untill one day... the column came

He threatened the balanced of power.

In the land, the news was clear

Liberation for the Boxes, slavery for the rows

The evil was smothered and replaced by a new kind, one motivated by ignorant benevolence

[wanton lava]

Knowledge is through experience, but we can only experience mental states directly. Can we know anything about the physical world?

[verbal whale]

every girl wants mamba but they pass by box row every day

[pastel osprey]

I think not beyond any doubt
Only if we accept some things without proof
Like that the phenomena we experience are a translation of real things, and that there is a physical world to experience.
These nay be beyond a reasonable doubt to most, but what is reasonable seems fairly arbitrary

[wanton lava]

while we can know about internal states, I don't think we can ever truly know the external

though any theory of antirealism needs a reason why

I need to work more on my arguement against dreams

[pastel osprey]

Do we need to take a position on realism or anti-realism?
I'm comfortable enough being agnostic about it and will probably remain so unless I find reason to believe we could find out one way or the other

[wanton lava]

Realism is the default and there's no good explanations for antirealism

[wanton lava]

Guys what are my biggest flaws?

[split jungle]

i dont know you that well to say

[verbal whale]

Many follow box row, only few understand it

[verbal whale]

Quiet the box and the row will speak

[hexed raptor]

Deep

[verbal whale]

You either find a box or an excuse

[wanton lava]

phil has made me really good at writing

[ornate hazel]

Thanks Phil for helping him be good at writing

🎀

[lean cloak]

To box or not to box

[sterile turret]

Box all the way

[wanton lava]

Questions for the Atheist:

1. Why is there something, rather than nothing?
2. Why are there laws of physics?
3. If everything came about via quantum fluctuations, then isn't it more likely that you are a boltzmann brain, a random arrangement of particles that has false memories, and will pop out any second?
4. If all of your thought is mere atoms, how can you trust it?
5. How would free will(or the illusion of it) persist, evolutionarily?
6. Why is there a conscious mind, and why doesn't it have executive control over everything, rather than seemingly random control over thoughts?

7. What about the potential cosmological arguement?

8. Why aren't you deist?

9. Is everything indivisible? If not, why? If so, why?

9b) If everything is indivisible, why does there appear to be a limit?

[verbal whale]

Questions for the non-box believer:

1. Why is there box, rather than nothing?
2. Why are there laws of box row?
3. If everything came about via box row, then isn't it more likely that you are a box, a random arrangement of particles that has false memories, and will row any second?
4. If all of your boxes are mere atoms, how can you row it?
5. How would free will to box row(or the illusion of it) persist, evolutionarily?
6. Why is there a conscious box, and why doesn't it row over everything, rather than seemingly random control over thoughts?

[potent vector]

box

[hexed raptor]

Millions shall box the row

[verbal whale]

You will never reach the box if you don't have the courage to row

[sterile turret]

Row the box or box the row?

[main wagon]

Box the ones who refuse to row

[potent vector]

Agnostic Atheist here (agnostic - relating to knowledge: i do not know if there is a god || atheist - relating to belief: i do not believe there is a god)
Generally Atheists dont claim to know or believe things. We understand. We acknowledge our current understandings can change when new evidence emerges. Science doesnt seek to understand WHY but HOW.
Below are my answers and i dont speak for all atheists

1. Why is there something, rather than nothing?
   Answer: Simpy i dont know and claiming to know without evidence is a guess. I dont have evidence to suggest that nothing is even something that can exist.
2. Why are the laws of physics?
   Answer: Science doesnt seek to understand why but how. The laws of physics are what we named the consistent mathematical theories that apply to some parts of nature. Through observation, experimentation, and the development of mathematical models we are able to accurately predict natural phenomena.
3. If everything came about via quantum fluctuations, then isnt it more likely that you are a Boltzmann brain, a random arrangement of particles that has false memories, and will pop out any second?
   Answer: im not familiar with this concept but at a cursory glance, sure it may be more likely for that to occur, but its more likely we are what we observe, evolved beings. The evolution of all species on Earth has taken place for over 3.7 years (the age of our oldest fossil) enough time to develop the genetic diversity we see today.
4. If all of your thought is mere atoms, how can you trust it?
   Answer: it is my understanding as a layperson that thought is an emergent property. Much like heat isnt atoms, but the friction of those atoms. Water boils not because the individual water molecules contain heat but rather because they are rapidly colliding causing friction that emits heat. Thought to my understanding is an emergent property of the brain.

[potent vector]

5. How would free will(or the illusion of it) persist, evolutionarily?
   Answer: im not sure what youre asking here. That being said i dont believe in the existence of free will. (i read your weeks long back and forth with others, as well as the google doc you submitted)
6. Why is there a conscious mind, and why doesnt it have executive control over everything, rather than seemingly random control over thoughts?
   Answer: I understand it’s likely to be an emergent property of the brain. I wouldnt expect it to have control over things outside of one’s body.
7. What about the potential cosmological argument?
   Answer: I see it as an attempt to answer why there is something rather than nothing. That refers you back to the answer in 1. I dont have evidence to suggest that nothing is possible. Also i dont have evidence that a god exists. Let’s just say i do agree and nothing is possible, you would still then have to prove the existence of a god is possible and true and demonstrate it with demonstrable evidence. I could as easily attribute the existence of something instead of nothing to a sentient windmill-like structure that exists outside of our universe that spun the dust in space forming the galaxies. But i dont believe that because i have no evidence of it. This begs the question, where did a god come from? If god existed before nothing, then isnt that something therefor nothing still doesnt exist?
8. Why arent you deist?
   Answer: There is no available evidence to suggest a god is possible or even exists. I heard Aron Ra once say “Any time a supernatural entity reaches into the prime material plane, it should pull its arm out dripping with physics”. We should see the evidence but we have none at this time so i cant know and i dont believe the same way i dont believe in a sentient windmill-like structure.
9. Is everything indivisible? If not, why? If so, why?
   Answer: i dont understand what your question means or is in reference to.

[wanton lava]

Maybe not God, but an unactualized actualizer

[potent vector]

your play refers to an uncaused causer but this assumes there can be nothing. you still have to prove thats possible, therefore its a guess. any supernatural entity posited without testable evidence would not convince me. if evidence is made available i would happily reconsider and shift but at this time i cant conclude this unactualized actualizer can or does exist

[wanton lava]

Logic is stronger than physical experiments

[wanton lava]

You can test the psr

[wanton lava]

Even if there can't be nothing, that doesn't change anything, because there is something

[wanton lava]

The psr's assertion is that anything that exists was caused by something else or its own nature

[wanton lava]

Also thanks for reading my play:)

[potent vector]

happy to read it! i also listened to Chirp by C418 and i really enjoyed the song

i personally dont know if i could assert that one is greater than the other. i think they rely on each other to strengthen a position. if you have a reference point or discussion on the subject id be very interested to check it out.

The PSR or Principle of Sufficient Reason is something im not well versed on so i cant speak to it.
but at a cursory glance it's still an assertion, a powerful but controversial,

[potent vector]

principle. i think overall my main issue is that the PSR sounds nice but still lacks the support needed through some type of demonstration. its still just an assertion that presupposes there can be nothing. it then goes on to jump from there and say that a something can exist within nothing without sullying it only to then create something that revokes its nothing status

[wanton lava]

What would nothing look like?

[wanton lava]

Adapting it to roblox so lmk if there are any topics that are repeated/if it doesn't flow right

Lepiniz and spinoza write about the psr

[potent vector]

i couldnt tell you because i dont know or believe it to exist

as far as the play, i would continue talking to willing atheists, because i feel that Alex's character is a bit flat.
as

[wanton lava]

Yeah, I could add a part about nothingness

Existing is a positive trait tho so something positive must make it

[split jungle]

“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
— Viktor E. Frankl

Master that space?
You master yourself

[wanton lava]

Ik that quote

[split jungle]

yea its a nice one and btw it was unrelated to your guys conversation i just wanted to post it

[wanton lava]

"Man can do what he wills, and he can will not to do what he wills." - me

[lean cloak]

What came first

The box or the row?

[verbal whale]

The mamba

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/765890400715800596/1372981377565458472/image0.gif

[wanton lava]

Begin the morning by saying to thyself, | shall meet with the busybody, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil.

-Marcus Aurelius

[split jungle]

i posted this once before

like a long version

[wanton lava]

Didn't see

Reading meditations

[split jungle]

i pinged u

[azure fractal]

all of this is, like, science

that has nth to do w god

[wanton lava]

If science can't prove something, then either that thing doesn't exist or something supernatural exists

[verbal whale]

Good things take time ahhh

[split jungle]

" When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. " - Socrates

A pretty famous one but I just wanted to post it here.

[hexed raptor]

My favourite quote

[azure fractal]

..no?

also science can prove all of these things

[wanton lava]

Science is the study of the natural world, so if there is something outside of it, science can't study it.

[wanton lava]

All of these questions are easily explained with agnostic deism

But they are challenges to science/empiricism

https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/05/17/life-meaning/

[wanton lava]

(Unrelated)

[azure fractal]

they are not

[azure fractal]

science has studied all of these things tho lol

[wanton lava]

Really?

[azure fractal]

yes

[wanton lava]

Source?

[azure fractal]

uhh…science? physics and biology have studied the « how was the earth born out of nothing »

#3 they’ve agreed is true

4 is bc the entire world is mere atoms and we trust that

6. we have executive control?? and that's bc what we think is our mind is actually only a small portion

[wanton lava]

7

Potentials

One sec

Lets adapt the cosmological argument to potentials. You are alive right now, and you have the potential to turn 70 years old. An apple is red right now, and it has the potential to be eaten. Everything that is potential, can be actualized, and any actualizer in our universe, needs to be actualized. This cannot go on forever, so there must be an unactualized actualizer. This unactualized actualizer must be all powerful, because if they weren’t, then they would have potential, all knowing, because if they weren’t, then they would have potential, and all good, because evil is the absence of good.

[azure fractal]

..ok..?

how does this need god as an explanation

[lean cloak]

With the box or against the row

[wanton lava]

God is an all powerful and omnipotent being that created this universe

[azure fractal]

that doesn’t answer my question

also that’s only if you believe in him??

[wanton lava]

This proves that God has to exist, by logical necessity

[azure fractal]

there’s no more proof for god than for fairies

[azure fractal]

nope!

what if the omnipotent beings of the world is a fairy council

[wanton lava]

Sure

Let's say a pizza is infinitely great, as in this proof, a being must exist with infinity of every attribute present in this universe

The pizza is infinitely great

And so, the pizza is God

It is an omnipotent and omniscient being

No difference

[azure fractal]

in this case why does this prove the existence of god

please explain that since you haven’t yet

[wanton lava]

It shows an additional view. If God doesn't exist, hoe can you answer this questions

[azure fractal]

this argument is really illogical. you’re basically saying « if probability exists why doesn’t god exist »

[wanton lava]

Some of these are actual challenges

Others are just flaws with atheism

[wanton lava]

7

And some aren't either

[azure fractal]

7 is that same probability question

you’re not answering my q’s lol

[wanton lava]

Probability that everything in this universe existed, surr

[azure fractal]

yeah…..

[wanton lava]

But a God must have existed because something exists with potential tial

[azure fractal]

that literally is the study of probability

[wanton lava]

Thr fact that I can turn 20 years old is proof that God exists

[azure fractal]

..no?? girl this is genuinely not a logical sequence of events

[azure fractal]

NO WHAT

explain this to me like i’m five

bc i think you’re SO wrong

[wanton lava]

Here

https://youtu.be/4L64MxbUl3o?si=oFmWfM-a9tsOk1ZX

1:55

Only logical argument is at 1:55

[hexed raptor]

logical ways to disprove god = 0

[ornate hazel]

It's true

Wait lemme read this

[ornate hazel]

Okay so @azure fractal I get where you’re coming from, but I think the issue is that Mooshroom isn’t explaining it clearly enough. The point isn't just "potential = God" it's more like if everything we see HAS potential and needs something else to actualize it (like an apple needs someone to eat it)then there has to be a starting point. Something that doesn’t need anything else to "activate" it. That first cause or unmoved mover is what some people call God. It’s not just about probability but it’s about explaining why anything happens at all, instead of nothtimg at all

Wait lemme find a link rq

[azure fractal]

isn’t that just a start point argument rather than « this dude is still here and also controls all of us »? this basically sounds like you’re saying god is the first domino in the chain or wtv

[ornate hazel]

"1. All bodies are either potentially in motion or actually in motion.
2. "But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality" (419).
3. Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect.
4. Therefore nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality with respect to motion
5. Therefore nothing can move itself; it must be put into motion by something else.
6. If there were no "first mover, moved by no other" there would be no motion.
7. But there is motion.
8. Therefore there is a first mover, God. "

[ornate hazel]

Yeah, it's more about a necessary starting point than a controlling god. The idea is that something had to start the chain without being caused itself. that's what people call God Whether that being still does anything now is a separate question

[azure fractal]

that necessary starting point is basically like asking how the earth was formed. which we have already answered through science?

[ornate hazel]

That explains how Earth formed but not how everything actually began i.e. space, time, matter, energy, and the laws of physics. Science explains what happens after the start, but not what caused the start itself

Science explains what happens in the universe, not why the universe exists in the first place

[azure fractal]

it also explains why it exists tho?

[wanton lava]

I DIDN'T SAY THAT

I asserted that an OO being(God) exists

Omnipotent and Omniscient

Anyways, I'm a writer for the daily drizzle, and I wrote this article, that I'll paste here

[azure fractal]

not necessarily tho…

[wanton lava]

wait

I'll send the link

https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/05/20/proof-for-gods-existence/

[potent vector]

The video provided by mushroom and your further explanation helped clarify some things for me.
I understand the argument to be : something that exists outside the natural universe had to set us into motion since we cant be in a shared state of potency and actuality

if thats accurate, a god could just want to make our universe, move forward with it and then abandon it to let it do what it will.
id ask then, could a god even have a thought and want to make a random universe without having an external mover of its own?
can a thought be had without an initial uncaused causer leading that being to its decision to create something?

Overall i think you still have to prove the concept of nothingness is even possible before a valid claim can be made that suggests a god being exists outside the somethingness of the universe. this opens up so many more questions about that god, are there more like them? how is it they have this unlimited power? is this power physical? magical? etc

as an agnostic atheist im content with the answer of i dont know, but this all feels like the god of the gaps argument asserting that a god is this unmovable mover. could the unknown mover just be a non sentient object if a god's thought cant being had without its own potency?

[pastel osprey]

Why does there have to be an uncaused causer or unactualised actualiser?

If everything we've ever seen has always had a cause, why would the assumption not just be that it's causes all the way down without end?

[wanton lava]

It is sentient, because the being is omniscient. Whether it "knows" in a human sense isn't known

[wanton lava]

I cover that in the article

(Last night I went over counters)

[pastel osprey]

I didn't catch it
I'll read again

[wanton lava]

Last section

[pastel osprey]

I don't see how that means there cannot be an infinite regression

[wanton lava]

Well

If it ends

Then it starts

[pastel osprey]

lots of things start and end within the whole
but that doesn't mean the whole cannot be a constantly bubbling and cycling mass

[wanton lava]

There must be a start to the cycle, due to it ending and restarting

I'm gonna meditate for like 5 minutes I'll brb

[pastel osprey]

must there?
what if it's like a circle
the circle has no start or end
every point is like every other point

[wanton lava]

There was a start to the circle

The circle didn't always exist

Even if the universe cycles, there was a cause of it

[pastel osprey]

I meant more
if we are cycling
then we could plot the timeline out on a circle
and there is no start or end in a circle, all the points equally could be and are not the beginning or end

[pastel osprey]

I simply
don't see how that follows
why must there be a start?

[wanton lava]

There is an end

So it doesn't last for infinity

[pastel osprey]

is there?
I haven't seen an end

[wanton lava]

There is an end to some things

Some things are actualized

Hence, time isn't infinite

[pastel osprey]

again
how did you get from "some things only exist for a finite amount of time" to "time itself is finite"
I don't see the throughline

@manic gull can you see this?

[manic gull]

Found it

[pastel osprey]

aha

[wanton lava]

Time itself may be infinite, but anything is finite, as long as it ends in actualizing something

[pastel osprey]

why?
could there not be an infinite oscillation? Like a pendulum swinging one way and then the other?
sure you can pick out causes and actualisation within
the gravitational potential energy actualises into downward motion
the momentum carries into upward movement actualising potential energy again
each swing starting and stopping, energy being potentiated and actualised over and over
but the system as a whole? infinite

[wanton lava]

2 types of causation - in the article against Hume

[pastel osprey]

either one could exist within an infinite loop though, no?

[wanton lava]

Sequential could

Not essential

[pastel osprey]

why?

[hexed raptor]

Millions must box row 👆

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1287419445937045514/1374402308464574725/ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif

[verbal whale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1287419445937045514/1374402308464574725/ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif

[wanton lava]

If I had a thought, and I imagined a console, with the variable A, set to one or zero, then it has potential to be zero. Now, if I imagine it to have a set of both one and zero, in its nature, then it has been actualized, and the root chain that led me to think this is now finite

I could've wrote this thought, and I did, actualizing my potential to write

[pastel osprey]

sure
but that is not the beginning of the chain
the chain goes back through every action and potential for action that lead us to this moment
and that chain may be finite
but is there really a reason it must be?

[wanton lava]

The reason is that it ends

It must have a start

So it is finite

[wanton lava]

Due to it existing

[pastel osprey]

I don't see how that follows
why couldn't something have an end and no start?

[split jungle]

Late one night, as a young man, Xenophon was walking through an alleyway between two buildings near the Athenian marketplace. Suddenly, a mysterious stranger, hidden in the shadows, blocked his path with a wooden staff.

A voice inquired from the darkness, “Do you know where someone should go if he wants to buy goods?”

Xenophon replied that they were right beside the agora, the finest marketplace in the world. There, you could buy any goods your heart desired: jewelry, food, clothing, and so on.

The stranger paused for a moment before asking another question:

“Where, then, should one go in order to learn how to become a good person?”

Xenophon was dumbstruck. He had no idea how to answer.

The mysterious figure then lowered his staff, stepped out of the shadows, and introduced himself as ||Socrates||.

Im curious, what answer would you guys give?
Where should one go in order to learn how to become a good person?

[shadow obsidian]

If I'm 16 and all of the girls in my class are 17 should I approach the girls from my class or the ones my age that even though they are my age they feel mentally younger since they're grade below?

[shadow obsidian]

Maybe he should find a good person in a place where he/she helps without getting anything for it
Like charity ig

I mean volunteering

not necessarily just donating

[split jungle]

i think you're in the wrong channel

[shadow obsidian]

I mean it's kinda moral question a bit? You can think about it and give diff answers?

[split jungle]

i see

[grizzled venture]

Well I still think that #🌹▸『』relationship-advice would suit beter

[shadow obsidian]

You mean ban me?

my bad I guess

Do you guys know any philosopher jokes or funny stories?

[grizzled venture]

If talking about the moral point of view it's really about you, ± 1 year is nothing you should worry about

[shadow obsidian]

alr thx

[shadow obsidian]

Like Tales from Milet fell down the well or smth like that

[wanton lava]

If something had an end and no start, then it happened instantaneously, as in only at an infinitely small period of time. I don’t observe me doing a pull up in an instant. I misread your question. Anything instantaneous is faster than the speed of light, and that kinda isn't possible in our universe

[wanton lava]

Library and get a few good books, based on your definition of good person

[wanton lava]

It depends on how mature you are and the other person

[wanton lava]

You kinda want a specific connection with sm not just trying to get everyone

[potent vector]

how did you come to the conclusion that it is omniscient?

[wanton lava]

God is pure act

No potential

So the only way it wouldn't know something is if it was illogical

[potent vector]

im not sure i understand.
how do you conclude that god has no potential?
how does it being illogical mean its no longer omniscient?

[verbal whale]

A true box rower doesn't advertise their presence, they remain hidden, unseen, until the box is truly unguarded

[main wagon]

Dont box a row if you can't row a box

[lean cloak]

Within every box is the will to row it

[fresh grail]

What doesn't make you stronger kills you

[potent vector]

BOXSTAR
Somebody once told me the tides are gonna roll me
I ain't the crispest box in the shed

She was looking kind of dumb with her tape gun and her oar
In the shape of an "L" on her box lid

Well, the years start sailin’ and they don't stop sailin’
Fed to the tides and I hit the waves rowin'

Didn't make sense not to live for box
Your box gets wet but your socks do not

So much to row, so much to sow
So what's wrong with taking the back tides?
You'll never know if you don't row

You'll never go if you don't row

[Chorus]
Hey now, you're an box star
Get your box and go row

Hey now, you're a box star
Get the box and go row

(And all that boxes rowed)

Only boxes rowed break the mold

[lean cloak]

Those who dare shut the box must be prepared to row the consequences

[ornate hazel]

Where do you get these quotes from

[verbal whale]

philosophers make their own quotes

[fresh grail]

Only the quotes given by man can one day replace the quotes of box

[main wagon]

!box

[agile shell]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1287419445937045514/1374402308464574725/ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif?ex=68333165&is=6831dfe5&hm=ec0a8061e1cd061a28df3f7bee2abea80bc18e4bcf79dd95eaa995fc41e01472&

[verbal whale]

!box

[agile shell]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1287419445937045514/1374402308464574725/ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif?ex=68333165&is=6831dfe5&hm=ec0a8061e1cd061a28df3f7bee2abea80bc18e4bcf79dd95eaa995fc41e01472&

[shadow obsidian]

Guys do you know any philosophical jokes about ancient philosophers?

Like Socrates, Platon Arystoteles, Zenon from Kiton Epicur, Tales from Miles etc.?

[lean cloak]

How did the box cross the rowd

[shadow obsidian]

It just rolled with it?

[verbal whale]

It just row with it

[split jungle]

The world can't break a man who expects nothing from it.
The devil can’t bribe a man who desires no throne here.

Simplicity isnt weakness, its unshakable power.

[wanton lava]

Or is it

It isn't power or the lack of it

Just one way of expressing it

As long as you know the options and can choose either, you are free and you have power

Not sticking to one path

Not desiring anything is great in theory but not great practically

Cause if you don't desire anything, what do you spend your time doing?

[split jungle]

You're not wrong, having the ability to choose is power.

Desire isnt evil, but when it runs unchecked, it becomes a leash.
I do desire, but what I desire is clarity, discipline, and truth.

I can choose to not be owned by anything, because I think only then im truly free.

[split jungle]

I spend my time building myself, and I can do all of it while being indifferent to like worldly materialistic affairs and stuff

[split jungle]

But what if I choose my path?

I can switch lanes, but I wont

[wanton lava]

Ok

If you aren't happy right now, you'll never be

If you are happy right now, you'll always be

Assuming you don't change anything

[split jungle]

happiness isnt my compass

[split jungle]

" Virtue is good, and vice is bad, but everything else is indifferent. "

From How to Think Like a Roman Emperor

Indifferent doesn't mean I dont care, it means these things arent inherently good or bad.

It doesnt mean I dont care about money, health, success, or comfort.
It means I dont confuse those things with real value.

I can prefer wealth over poverty.
But wealth doesnt make me a better or worse human being, only my virtue does.

[wanton lava]

Quote is from meditations

I read it

Was boring, don't recommend

Virtue and vice are human constructs tho

Saxophone is a human construct

so why isn't saxophone good?

[wanton lava]

https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/05/30/free-will-is-easy-to-prove/

Best argument I wrote

[lean cloak]

When life gives you boxes don’t waste the opportunity to row

[pastel osprey]

Bad question
Saxophone is good

[hearty garden]

https://youtu.be/6sL7ArCWJbc?si=fq2GPlFT0_n3Xm0z

[split jungle]

I wrote that message while reading How to Think Like a Roman Emperor, it was also in there

[split jungle]

I recommend the book I said above then, its fun if you wanna learn about stoicism, how it began, etc.

[split jungle]

not inherently, its about the one using it, a saxophone can be used to play, or used to kill. It doesnt make the saxophone either bad or good.

[split jungle]

Yeah, but calling virtue a construct doesn’t disprove its value ? Its used to evaluate the morality of human actions.

[split jungle]

So whats your take on it actually, I never considered about like something being a human construct or not, like justice, loyalty, etc.

what do you think of human constructs?

and mb if my question is badly worded

[wanton lava]

I like the good ones

Like fairness and hydration

I'm not too virtuous or vicious

[split jungle]

You say good, subjectively or objectively?
Because if you define good based on how it makes you feel, then someone else can define good as power, control, or even harm.
So what separates your ‘good’ from theirs?

[wanton lava]

I talk about this in my play but you should follow morals, but not live and die for them

No unnecessary harm, for example

[split jungle]

I see

in that sense, we're the opposite, for me, what is a man if he wont die for what he believes in

[wanton lava]

I don’t believe in hedonism, rather Aristotles view in a balanced life

[wanton lava]

I'm a chill guy

[split jungle]

I respect that

[wanton lava]

Hedonism is like kind of a dumb idea

Idk if you read my 3 nobler truths

[split jungle]

most people are hedonists without even realising it

[wanton lava]

Or chill guys

[split jungle]

nope

[wanton lava]

Many just go with the flow

[split jungle]

sure

[wanton lava]

Ok 3 nobler truths:
Life is a cycle of pain and pleasure
To break the cycle, break either pain or pleasure
To break pain, make it meaningful

[split jungle]

thats exactly what I mean, hedonism is often unconscious. Most people dont say “I live for pleasure” But their actions show it

slaves to comfort

[wanton lava]

Yeah most people don’t like reflecting

[wanton lava]

I think almost everyone has discomfort in their lives without reflecting

[split jungle]

wdym with break?

[wanton lava]

Reflecting happens in a depression or in a stressful time

[wanton lava]

End the cycle, either having permanent happiness or none

[split jungle]

why break the cycle? pain is my teacher,
pleasure is my test.

[wanton lava]

I mean that's number 3

If you don't want to break it, you already broke it

[split jungle]

damn

deep

what do you choose?

[wanton lava]

Well

It feels like

[split jungle]

I try to reflect everyday

[wanton lava]

There isn't any real sadness anymore in my life except for the gym obviously

So idk

I didn't break it yet but also I don't really want to

[split jungle]

oh

[split jungle]

why not? you still want happiness?

[wanton lava]

I guess but I'm 14 and I'll find it sometime in my life, if I haven't found it yet

[split jungle]

I stopped chasing happiness a while ago, rather I chase the feeling of feeling real and alive. And I enjoy moments in life

[wanton lava]

I'm like working on a bunch of things rn

Chasing happiness reveals a lack of it

[split jungle]

wow man, you're really wise for such a young age, didnt expect you to be 14

[wanton lava]

This is kinda why I don't like putting my age cause philosophers are born in a depression which can happen at any age

[split jungle]

idk if its a good thing or not, I wouldnt wanna be that aware at 14, glad I enjoyed life back then, knowledge isnt a gift, its a burden

[split jungle]

wish you the best with it

[wanton lava]

You too

[wanton lava]

Was a burden

[split jungle]

thank you

[wanton lava]

For like 3 months I was really depressed

Now I'm happy again

I think it'll last this time

[split jungle]

thats a good way to put it, actually now I think about it, I agree, it was a burden in the beginning as all the illusions surrounding me started to crumble one by one, but I know what I live for now and I wouldnt take anything back

[wanton lava]

Yeah

[split jungle]

hope so for you

[wanton lava]

Everything is easy but balancing your energy is hard

Switching is hard

Not comitting

I'm gonna gts now tryl

Ttyl*

[split jungle]

Its easy to commit then, but you say you dont choose a fixed path right? perhaps thats why its hard for you

[split jungle]

alright sleep well man

_ _

I wrote a little something:

One walks a path carved by choice. One direction. One mission. His strength is in stillness, in commitment, in endurance.

Another flows like water. Flexible, unsure, exploring. His strength is in adapting, but his weakness is in never choosing

It reveals the price of never planting roots. When every road is open, none are walked to the end.

When the winds howl and the lights fade,
it’s the man who walks, not the one who waits, who finds the fire.

[wanton lava]

Don't pick a fixed mentality imo

You always will make a bad decision and you should allow growth

Everything is subjective

[ornate hazel]

Damn this is actually pretty well written

I feel like the last 3 lines are kinda confusing imo

Actually nevermind I'm stupid 😭

[wanton lava]

https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/05/31/the-chill-guy/

@split jungle

Here's my view

[wanton lava]

So your view seems to be that everything is indifferent except virtue and vice. Mine goes a step further, saying that virtue and vice are indifferent, except for an observer. The only ideals are life and anti life, good and evil being defined as life

It's a bit more subjective of a view

[split jungle]

I dont hold a ‘fixed mentality’, I hold to a fixed foundation.
A code. My path.
Thats what keeps me from getting lost in the name of evolving

And yesterday I completed my foundation, I've written my code in my notebook in detail, if u want I can share it in dms

[split jungle]

I disagree heavily,

virtue is objectively good
vice is objectively bad

whats the proof? just because we feel it? maybe, but look at it this way:
Kant said apply it to universal law

If everyone in the world was virtuous, the world would be a better place

If everyone in the world followed vice, the world would collapse

[split jungle]

If a man steals bread in the dark, unseen by anyone, is it still theft?

If someone saves a life and never tells a soul, is it still good?

Even if no one sees it, truth is still truth. Virtue is still good. Vice is still bad

_ _

a knife is indifferent: you can use it to spread something on your bread, or you can use it to kill

but virtue cannot be indifferent, its not possible

[split jungle]

and another thing about the observer you said, I did add this to my path, which is: even if no one in the world knows what im doing im still gonna stick to it. Still gonna stick to virtue.

But I believe in God, the only observer who matters

[split jungle]

I see, your view wont help you grow, do you realise that?

[wanton lava]

My view is to go with the flow and I think you grow with it

[wanton lava]

Kant kinda sold with his law. Lying doesn't apply everywhere, so it is bad. But lying to someone to stop them from harming themselves is good.

[wanton lava]

We made up virtue, as we made up everything else

Only objective thing is life

[wanton lava]

You are the observer in this case

[wanton lava]

I don’t understand your justification

[split jungle]

growth requires friction, fscing discomfort, killing the old you, challenging your ego, resisting your lower desires etc.

If you just 'go with the flow' you will stay smooth. Untouched. But whats smooth? A pebble. And whats forged under pressure? A blade.

[wanton lava]

What is a knife that permanently cuts? A rusted, dull one.

Going with the flow embraces discomfort and joy, with the CG method

[split jungle]

who says it doesnt constantly get sharpened?

[wanton lava]

Sharpening a knife c makes it brittle

[split jungle]

I believe all lies are bad, even ones trying to 'save' someone. I believe one way or another, one will pay the price for lying, no matter what context. So yes you can lie to save someone, but there will be consequences. Because it was never 'good'.

[wanton lava]

I believe that is foolish. Who gives the consequences

[split jungle]

Also, lying to stop someone from harming themselves is dangerous. What happens when the illusions crumble? You will have made it worse. You don't grow people by shielding them from truth. You grow them by helping them face it with courage.

[wanton lava]

Getting help takes hope

[split jungle]

the universe, God, someway or another, one will pay the price for vice.

[wanton lava]

I take a secular position so I won't argue with that

[split jungle]

so is injustice?

alright, so murder isnt bad?

[wanton lava]

It is bad, because it takes away life, which is the only objective truth

[split jungle]

id say its not 'made up' but its discovered

[wanton lava]

If that is true, morals should be objective

[split jungle]

what if no one ever sees it?

is it still not bad or good

[wanton lava]

You did

[split jungle]

only if someone sees it? and labels it?

[split jungle]

im saying if someone gets murdered and no one knows, no one saw

[wanton lava]

You saw and they saw

[split jungle]

im saying a knife can be indifferent bc of the way its used. Not the knife itself is good or bad. But virtue cant be 'used' in any other way than whats morally righteous, you cant 'help' someone and its somehow bad? does this make sense?

[wanton lava]

The notion of help is subjective

[split jungle]

Sharpening done right doesn't make the blade brittle,
neglect and improper use do.

If you overtrain, barely rest, dont eat enough, you break.

If you train right, eat right, rest right, you become stronger

[wanton lava]

The more you sharpen, the faster it breaks

[split jungle]

still better than lying

[wanton lava]

(I would know, I'm a boy scout)

[wanton lava]

hope is an illusion

but a necessary one

when I was deeply depressed, hearing that it would get better was techincally a lie, but it helped me through

[split jungle]

can be used in a good way, sometimes I try to manipulate my mind into doing something, like the last rep of a set, you can use it as a tool.

[wanton lava]

I'm going to explain why morals are subjective:
I think that murder is bad.
Ted bundy thinks that murder is ok
I think murder is bad because it is, well bad
Ted bundy thinks murder is ok because it is, well, ok

[split jungle]

but I kinda agree, hope is an illusion, thats why I rely on whats rational

[wanton lava]

sometimes you need more than that

[split jungle]

i see

[wanton lava]

that is the only objective moral you can find

[split jungle]

what about stealing from the poor or r*ping a child?

[wanton lava]

the only proof for the morality of an action is how it makes us feel

so it is subjective because it relates to feeling

[wanton lava]

I mean

Money is trade

and trade is life

so it takes life

[split jungle]

and they are

is what i believe

[wanton lava]

you didn't address my argument though

[split jungle]

no like im not in the frame, just the murderer and the one thats murdered

[wanton lava]

How can you know that your morals are the right ones, and not mine, or Ted Bundy's, or Epsteins, and so on?

The only think reason can do is claim that taking away life is bad

Perhaps you can make a superintelligent AI that determines morals but even then it's just autocorrect

[split jungle]

or misguided intentions

If a man beats a child to make him stronger
it doesnt mean violence is virtuous.
It means the man has twisted logic

[wanton lava]

if the child does become stronger, than why isn't the man virtuous

[split jungle]

virtue holds firm even when someone mislabels their actions

[wanton lava]

Why stick to virtue

Because it's virtuous?

That seems kind of circular

[split jungle]

I would say because abuse is bad, but you would counter with it being subjective am i right?

[wanton lava]

Yes, because the reason why we think abuse is bad is because it makes us feel bad if done to us

Some people like abuse done to them

So, it is subjective

[split jungle]

thats just twisted logic, someone thinking thats its ok doesnt make it ok, its makes them wrong

a flat earther thinks the earth is flat, you think its round, does it make the shape of earth subjective?

no, it means someone is wrong

[wanton lava]

You have empirical proof the earth is round

[wanton lava]

It's the only validation for good morals

[split jungle]

let me try this again, if everyone in the world lied, the world would collapse

now it doesnt matter if you think its right or Ted thinks its wrong

It would just collapse

[wanton lava]

Yes

[split jungle]

bc they're twisted

or maybe a kink

so its subjective

hmm

[wanton lava]

Moral nihilism or moral subjectivism

Those are the 2 logical takes

Denying morals is immoral

So, morals are subjective

[split jungle]

well Im not a scientist or something so i rely on the source of people that have dedicated their life to research about all that stuff, but you're right

[wanton lava]

Look at a boat going away from you

It doesn't shirt proportionally

Shrink*

[split jungle]

oh yea

i get it now

but i never doubted it being round tho

look at flight paths

[split jungle]

well idk how to proof it to you further, ill end with this:

Truth, discipline, and kindness are objectively good, not because they feel good, but because they build, while vice destroys. Thats not opinion, its function.

Moral objectivism aligns with human flourishing, and social harmony

proof that virtue is not just a personal opinion,
but that it has real effects on both the individual soul and the world around him

[wanton lava]

Well not discipline but the others

Isn't sexual activity virtuous too?

[split jungle]

not inherently

[wanton lava]

But

It builds

[split jungle]

so you think its virtuous because it creates life? even when someone is raped?

its moral value depends entirely on context and intention.
done with love, loyalty, and intention to build, virtuous

when driven by lust, ego, addiction, when it causes harm etc. > not virtuous

[split jungle]

without discipline virtue rots into indulgence

[wanton lava]

Isn't addiction virtuous cause you're creating proficiency in a domain?

[split jungle]

addiction is loss of control, opposite of virtue, which teaches mastery of self

[split jungle]

a thief can be proficient in stealing but that doesnt make him virtuous

[wanton lava]

Cause stealing is taking away

[split jungle]

still, there is this argument as well

[wanton lava]

So now virtue is the mastery of self?

I thought you said virtue was acting morally?

[split jungle]

mastery of self is moral action?

[wanton lava]

Also

If everything is indifferent until it is used

then isn't the function of things not indifferent

and if objects have uses

then aren't the objects their use

making them not indifferent?

[wanton lava]

I fail to see how that bridges

Unless you start out moral, becoming more powerful isn't more moral

[split jungle]

Mastering yourself is how you act morally. You cant be kind, honest, or disciplined if you dont control your urges first. That self control is what makes virtue possible

[wanton lava]

Again, I fail to see the bridge.
Self control --> Power --> ???
How is power moral?
Donald Trump has power, and he isn't moral.
Sure, you need self control to be moral.
That isn't causation, just correlation.

Morality is somewhat circular

[split jungle]

where did I say power

self mastery is the foundation, you cant be virtuous if you havent mastered yourself first?

how can you be kind if you cant control your anger?

[wanton lava]

Sure

but like

correlation isn't causation

becoming disiplined doesn't make you kinder

[split jungle]

it doesnt if u dont choose to be, what im saying is that self mastery is needed if u want to be virtuous, but if you master yourself, you can choose to not be virtuous as well.

I can train everyday, resist my urges, but I can still go out and murder someone because i choose to. But im not forced to. This doesnt make me virtuous

[wanton lava]

But then, you acknowledge that virtue and self mastery are different

[split jungle]

ah.. i contradicted myself

[split jungle]

then, you need self mastery for virtue, but you cant be virtuous without self mastery

[wanton lava]

it's fine I do it all the time

but my point is that disipline isn't inherently virtuous, so it isn't an aspect of objective virtue
but you thought it was.
That means that you can be wrong about what makes virtue objective, and that objective morals don't exist

[split jungle]

You’re saying that just because I misidentified a piece of virtue, all virtue becomes subjective? Thats like saying if someone thought salt was sugar, then taste is subjective

And I agree now, discipline is not inherently virtuous

[wanton lava]

well not exactly

epstimically

I'm saying

that we don't know what is the objective morals, if it exists

so practically, we have subjective morals

since you CAN misidentify a piece of virtue, you CAN misidentify every piece about virute, so you CANNOT state that you know objective virtue

[wanton lava]

What you could say is that virtue is a journey

but if it is a journey, you shouldn't stay to a fixed idea of what virtue is

[split jungle]

thats a very interesting view, but wouldnt that mean that someone that has lived 50+ years in pursue of it, has reached the objective destination?

_ _

this also changed my view, I no longer know virtue fully, but i know its real, and i will pursue to find its objective roots, grasping it fully

[split jungle]

I do believe it exists, but it has to be reached through deep discipline, sincerity, wisdom, and guidance.

[wanton lava]

Good luck

[wanton lava]

Someone knows they found virtue when they can explain why it is virtuous without being circular, relying on intuition, or appealing to consequences

[split jungle]

ty, tho i dont believe in luck

[split jungle]

I think its way deeper, you must become it. It cant be reduced to words, or atleast not fully. Like 2 + 2 = 4 , you can memorize that, but until you learn to count, you wont know its true meaning

[wanton lava]

May the quantum fluctuations lead you to the discovery

[wanton lava]

You can make anything a construct

[split jungle]

lmao ty man

[split jungle]

tho even those fluctuations are determined by God thats why i dont believe in luck, but i know you're secular so forget it

[split jungle]

ill try to, objective virtue into words

[split jungle]

@wanton lava you believe in relativism?

[wanton lava]

Mostly

Life is the true good

[split jungle]

I see

[wanton lava]

The only truth I found

[split jungle]

so even in relativism, there is a barrier right, at some point, you cant say nothing is truly wrong even if its abuse, torture, rape, betrayal etc.

(i dont include murder bc you already said life is the only objective good)

So the fact thst there js this barrier, that no one is willing to relativize it anymore, is proof that there is some objectivism in vice being bad? isnt there?

If some things are always wrong, regardless of time, place, or culture,
then morality is not entirely subjective.

the very fact that a line exists: is the beginning of objectivity

[pastel osprey]

I don't think that's true
Plenty of cultures have seen no issue with putting people down in all sorts of torturous ways for religious purposes and there are still cultures today where abuse is normalised and ignored.

I don't think these lines come from any objective morality, mores just that people don't like being hurt and most are willing to agree to not hurt others to avoid getting hurt themselves. We all have largely similar standards for that stuff because we're all humans who can be harmed in similar ways, not because there's some objective good or evil

[split jungle]

If people can justify torture or abuse, that doesnt mean those acts become morally right. It means people can corrupt their conscience

but then again, id say that we all instinctively value loyalty, love, and truth, even across history and tribes, proves that something objective runs deeper than law or custom, but then it can be countered with subjectivism

perhaps a never ending loop..

[pastel osprey]

There is something objective that runs deeper
It's laws of physics and nature. Fear of death and effective survival strategies. Our brains are wired this way because the people who weren't, died out.

[split jungle]

My weakness is: hard to prove. You can’t physically observe “moral truth” its not like a rock or a law of gravity

Your weakness lies in thinking thst: theres no real right or wrong. If morality is just a tool for survival, then rape, slavery, or genocide could be 'right' if they helped a group survive

now what would you rather lean more to?

and would you say thst your weakpoint is not a weakpoint? and would you justify it correct, that all those things are right if they helped a group survive?

[pastel osprey]

I think you misunderstand my position.
It's not that i think right and wrong is whatever aids survival, I simply don't think objective right and wrong exist, but what we feel is right or wrong is influenced by those environmental factors.

I do think it is useful to construct or adopt a system of morality to abide by though.

Also
To be clear
I'm not convinced in any way that an objective morality doesn't exist, I'm just not convinced that it does, or that we could prove it if it did

[atomic viper]

it depends on you desire to define it

we can answer with a rhetorical "anyithng that brigns about the flourishment of you and/or others without losing sigh tof the fuute and the here and now is obejtivly virtuous and ethicla and ergo moral"

or if you want something more pragmatic and stiff. "unjustified killing is amoral" Ergo its moral to not do unjustified killing

[wanton lava]

@split jungle https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/05/31/the-chill-guy/

[split jungle]

You already sent me this last time

[wanton lava]

I forgot

[split jungle]

no worries

[wanton lava]

Morals are a set of standards for intrapersonal and interpersonal conduct

There are multiple different standards (utilitarianism, virtue ethics, etc)

That is what is relative - your set of standards

unless everyone follows your set of standards, morals can vary among people, and if their standards or frame of reference is different, their judgements of right and wrong are different, making it relative

[split jungle]

I understand what you're saying

Also, I live by the commandments of my faith. So I do believe, still, that there is moral objectivism.

[wanton lava]

That makes a lot sense, for some reason I thought you were an atheist

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16yjeyyj2dTEl5InKWZOjSqcyy1AQrjLb41x2CYDZG04/edit?usp=sharing

[wanton lava]

I wrote an introduction to Philosophy

[split jungle]

No I mentioned before that I believe in God. And I wanted to dive into logic and reason to strengthen my beliefs

[wanton lava]

Yes, but I'm a deist

so like

atheist in that I don't believe in a God that does stuff, but religious in that I believe He exists

[split jungle]

I see

[wanton lava]

I thought you were the same for some reason

[split jungle]

Nah

[wanton lava]

you may want to go into religious forums instead of philosophy then

cause a lot of it is on the burden of proof

[split jungle]

I am in one, I ask a lot of questions there as well

[wanton lava]

https://thedailydrizzle.com/2025/06/07/intro-to-philosophy/

[split jungle]

According to my religion, everyone is born with a natural inclination. That means atheism or rejection of God is the contrarian claim, not belief.
So the burden of proof is actually on the one denying God, because they're going against what the soul naturally leans toward.

[pastel osprey]

I would posit that any notion beyond knowing nothing ought to provide proof
if you want people to accept god definitely exists, proof is required
if you want people to accept god definitely doesn't exist, proof is required
the only claim not requiring proof is "I don't know if god exists"

[split jungle]

Yea but this about 2 people, one says he doesnt exist, one says he does exist: on who lies the burden of proof? On the contrary claim, and God is the default. So anyone claiming hes not, has the burden of proof

[pastel osprey]

surely two people could have the reasoning skills to realise both would need proof to convince the other, since each is contrarian to the other

[split jungle]

thats true

[azure fractal]

why is god the default?

[split jungle]

@azure fractal

But I am aware that not everyone believes that

[azure fractal]

so because you believe in god (aka your religion), god is the default

that logic is kinda circular

[split jungle]

Every human is born with a natural inclination. An innate recognition that there is a Higher Power. You can mask it, ignore it, distract yourself from it, but deep down, it cant be erased

[pastel osprey]

That's a big claim though, that also needs proof

[lean cloak]

Nah

[split jungle]

I know

[pastel osprey]

Do you, have any?

[split jungle]

Not “proof” in a scientific sense like physics

[azure fractal]

according to whom or what?

this logic, again, seems circular

[atomic viper]

yeah I doubt such an inclination exists.

Most proiment arguemtn against this off the top of my head is a feral child

religiousity forms from comunities holding together unity. Some sort form in one way or another to brinf togetherness or conformity insdie a group, in some ways to eep evryone togethr and growing, other ways like allt hings this is abused

but like there is no innate lanugage to be spoken in nature, thre is also no innate religion

only consciousness and spirit, which in resreach you eill find interlock with ech othe sevreal rimes. For example, most time whne german philosphy talks about spirit its what youwould in the modenr day refer to as mind

and mind being its own thig which nowadays tends to be unified as to one

if not psriit becoming a sesne of ethics or what have ou

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946520785764372511/1307904175262404648/YAP.gif

[pastel osprey]

I'm not inclined to treat the mind as a separate thing fron the body without good reason. Just because the 3lb hunk of meat in our skull is a bit of a black box that we don't fully understand doesn't mean there's something extra in the black box

[fresh grail]

I think there is

Because if brain not brain why would brain brain

[verbal whale]

black box 🥵

[pastel osprey]

sometimes emergent properties come from simpler things
the same way when you zoom in waves aren't really a thing so much as just a lot of little particles bouncing off each other
but when you zoom out somehow there is now a single thing that is a wave
I think unless there is further evidence there's no reason to believe the brain braining is anything other than a far more complex version of that

[wanton lava]

Because someone has an intuition from the start

[wanton lava]

True, except when you look at what a soul is, a essence of someone separate from matter. The mind is an essence of someone, and specific matter isn't self aware, so awareness makes a soul distinct. I do believe with the German philosophers that soul is synonymous with mind and that it will die one day

[wanton lava]

According to intuition and his religion, I'm sure they have arguments for it, which he doesn't provide

[pastel osprey]

Is it separate from the matter? Or is it simply an emergent quality of the matter under the right circumstances?

[wanton lava]

What makes a metal separate from a noble gas? It's its properties. Properties makes something separate. The self awareness of an object is a property, and that's the soul.

[split jungle]

Thoughts?

[lean cloak]

Big ass rock right next to him

[split jungle]

the man is sisyphus

[lean cloak]

Yo I ain’t gonna lie I don’t think he was pushing the rock for fun

[split jungle]

Ofc not

[atomic viper]

Some research showed “souls” or the proper term being your spirit does have a mass of some sorts to it

Albiet this stuff is highly suspect and can’t really be replicated without breaking humanitarian laws

[lean cloak]

Guys this is deep💔

[atomic viper]

go out a legend or go on with an STD

[verbal whale]

Start with the gorilla and end with the chick 🥵

[wanton lava]

God's forgot about him

[split jungle]

I think, to survive in this world, you need two things:
Rationality
Madness

If you are only rational, you become a machine, and fold the moment logic says “give up”
If you are only mad, you become a reckless fool, burning out in chaos

Madness is belief that defies logic.
It’s doing reps when your mind thinks it already hit failure ( i.e. how eddie hall lifted 500kg)

Balancing the two

[lean cloak]

Nah

Only 2 things you need

Bottle of jack daniels and some car keys

[atomic viper]

to wuote doctor who: thast too binary, there is order and chaos, but there is also play

[stone osprey]

I mean, I'd do the same thing to both

[lean cloak]

Ur gonna bang a gorilla

[grizzled venture]

Huh?

[stone osprey]

no, I'd beat both of them up

and torture them with among us clickbait videos

[grizzled venture]

Oh, makes sense

[lean cloak]

Ur gonna beat that ass up😨

Bro has a preference ig….

[stone osprey]

nah that's for my gf

[lean cloak]

Is she a gorrila

[stone osprey]

yuh

no

she's stronger

and even prettier

[sterile turret]

Y'all let's talk about sharing everything with AI and its effects. Pretty common nowadays

[pastel osprey]

what kind of effects?
people have been carrying devices with microphones everywhere in their pockets for decades now so it's not like big corporations are getting any more data now than they already have

[fresh grail]

Now they see me

[hearty garden]

Gorilla

I’d rather get ripped in half than contract the cordyceps

[hearty garden]

Sissy squats are cool

[atomic viper]

Philosophy is not one of the natural sciences. The object of philosophy is the logical clarification of thoughts. Philosophy is not a theory but activity. The result of philosophy is not a number of 'philosophical proposition' but to make propositions clear philosophy should make clear and delimit sharply the thoughts which otherwise are, as it were, opaque and blurred.

[ember tulip]

Is religion and the bible only the basis of determining what is right or wrong?

[atomic viper]

No

[sullen comet]

mmh idk

probably not

parents are the one who sets morals for kids. as kids grow up, they have a choice to break or keep the morals that their parents have taught them. throughout their life, the more morals they break, the more they’ll feel less empathy.
at the same time, the people around them set their morals and their friends, family, and teachings might or might lead them to or away from a moral

[ember tulip]

you guys are so smart!!! why i had never thought about this!

[wanton lava]

There's many systems of determining what is right and what is wrong

Utilitarianism, Consequentialism, Virtue Ethics, etc.

Or you could say nothing is truly right or wrong

Or even your parents or your friend group can decide

[wanton lava]

Replaced "Just ask google" with "Just ask chagpt"

Bad for 3 reasons
-ChatGPT is a yes man, and never admits when wrong + always takes your side
-Dependence on AI
-ChatGPT only makes predictions with data, so it will always be one step behind

[wanton lava]

what about food

[sterile turret]

This is just general stuff. I'm talking about sharing everything, even personal stuff with gpt

[split jungle]

optional

[wanton lava]

The internet already knows everything

[wanton lava]

Water?

[sterile turret]

Then what's the point of protecting your privacy if it doesn't even exist.

Is privacy even a concept anymore

[wanton lava]

Carbon hydrogen nitrogen oxygrn phosphorus sulfur?

[split jungle]

damn

[wanton lava]

I don't really care about privacy that much

[split jungle]

beyond my comprehension

[wanton lava]

Just get a VPN at that pont

Or make your own

[wanton lava]

Chnops

[sterile turret]

If everything you do is shared by multiple billion companies than doesn't that mean they know pretty much everything about you

[split jungle]

nah

[wanton lava]

Just make a VPN 🥀🪿🪿

[split jungle]

if you're on the internet your data is already somewhere

[sterile turret]

What if they start using it against you one day

What if they used our data against us

[split jungle]

then what

what do you wanna do

[sterile turret]

vpn drains my battery 😭

But nvm that

Philosophy!

[split jungle]

androids

[split jungle]

fight like gohan

[sterile turret]

Gohan doesn't have a search history that he's not proud of

Or maybe he does

[wanton lava]

I'm sure the terrorists of tomorrow will liberate us

[sterile turret]

We may never know

[split jungle]

well if you got a p addiction thats not on the companies

[sterile turret]

So called rebels

[sterile turret]

Lmao i don't just a joke

And a thought

[split jungle]

nah ik im not saying you specifically

[sterile turret]

Ah

My bad

[split jungle]

no worries bro

[ornate hazel]

What happened to this thread 😭

[ornate hazel]

I mean those companies exploit human psychology for profit, designing content to be addictive. That makes them partly responsible 🤷‍♀️

[split jungle]

partly, but you still choose with your own will

[pastel osprey]

Nooooo
You can't acknowledge that brains are electrochemical meat machines that can be gamed and manipulated
Then you can't just blame people for ending up where they do and feel good about being superior!

[split jungle]

you're right in a way, and im guilty of it

[ornate hazel]

Sure we make choices but willpower isn’t limitless, and these companies spend billions to break it. Saying “you still choose” ignores how much control they have over shaping that choice in the first place. It’s not really a fair fight tbh

[ornate hazel]

yeah But that’s the point< if we know brains can be gamed like machines, why pretend people just "ended up there" by bad personal decisions? Acknowledging manipulation doesn’t actually imo remove responsibility, it calls out the systems designed to exploit us. Ignoring that just lets those systems off the hook

And honestly, pretending everyone has full control just makes it easier to blame and shame people instead of asking why so many are getting hooked in the first place. If the same patterns keep happening to millions and millions of people that’s not just a bunch of weak individuals, that’s a system working exactly as intended. should we ignore that just to feel morally superior?

[pastel osprey]

It's more than just porn really, the whole modern world is fucked
What willpower evolved for: daring to hunt a large animal and pushing through physical discomfort
What is expected of it today: resisting the machinations of multibillion dollar corporations employing leagues of scientists and analysts to find the best methods to trap you
I don't think it's impossible, but it's hardly any individual's fault for failing against such a power

[graceful stump]

.

[wanton lava]

I'm Californian 😎

[atomic viper]

Sometimes when we say words we can correlate it between sentences and words. For example if we are working on something and I say "hammer" with my hand extended then does that not mean "give me the hammer." And if so how would say a foreigner comprehend the difference between these words if we are insistent on saying "give me the hammer" would he perceive this as many words or one word? Are you aware of what you are going when you say "give me the hammer?" Yes we know these words and that it's a sentence but is this knowing an active consciousness when saying it? Surely to us it's the same as "hammer" no? Both can be sentences cause they both give the same meaning within the context around it.

[atomic viper]

Furthermore in terms of communication we can so futility in written word alone on things such as questions which are actually commands. Or something such like difference between prophecy and command like "you will do this"
Although miscommunication does exist i do feel at some level an alternative form on interpersonal intelligence is created with our modern world being so text based in communication. At least out world in the sense of how you and I interact with each other mostly.
We have no visual non verbal communication but by paying attention to writing patterns and variety of responses etc etc we can give a context to things without an empty assumption. Which can avoid redundantcy of assertions.

[wanton lava]

What's your point?

[atomic viper]

Tho if I say "it is asserted that such and such is the case" then becomes "such and such is the case" it becomes very empty and meaningless. Or if we consider language a game or a form of play no move has been done by saying "such and such is the case" or at least a move that hasn't been done before. The "it is asserted" suddenly has this logical meaning despite you and I knowing it'd meaninglessness. But we need it still for any prevention of misinterpretation of those who aren't us.
Tho asserting can be done in question and seemingly be viable in normality and logic and so sort of communication with an outside sphere of influence
Tho anymore of this and assetion does get into concepts of forms of sentences which raises questions about communication and how complete our languages are. Hegel said Sanskrit is the most complete language, at least grammatically, but what use is that with the mass amounts of development of life in general since then? How is such progression shared? It's completeness is also it's hindering.
If assetion is only seen as entertaining or bringing some truth value to it it is to be assumed that the following must only go to the sentence sign by sign (words of value) but then we consider are any part of this sentence written or said have any meaning of thought behind them? Is there a true knowing of what we are saying or is it the meer copying pf what is seen such as sheer music notes being read and copied by playing them.
Is that still what Aristotle(maybe Plato I forget) would call immitation

[atomic viper]

Just riffing on linguistic philosophy

[wanton lava]

What are you doing after college

Are there any j*bs

[atomic viper]

I guess if I got the doctorate I'd teach

But idc. I do what I do

I don't need to work a certain job or make a certain amount of money.

So we can say something and me and you (you is not so literal here more place holder) and between us it's understood fully. But given this same usage of words to another person who isn't us will warrant different results. Since now it isn't something so to speak inherit or of our culture/influence. Now we must be active on how we say things. Understanding our words and definitions of those words etc etc. and how also in some form understanding the world towards the people we explain and are translating to.

[split jungle]

just a question, do u have a purpose?

[atomic viper]

Sure. Keep learning, keep improving

[atomic viper]

Let's say I have something... Say the letter R. Now is that sign a word or sentence. If I am to describe something ans I say "R" that very well is a sentence.. at least vocally. But if I'm naming it "r" it's only a word. Is it not strange to say something like an element can only be named? Certainlly it is obvious to say naming and describing are two different levels. It would be like saying that when I set up a chess board then that is a move in chess. A man called frege said a word only had meaning in the context of a sentence. Similar can be said for movement. Macro movement, micro movement. Is this process existence to be on its own only merely a step in something bigger. We all agree a deadlift is a dead lift. But a deadlift is also a segment/elenent of a clean or snatch. And is not a clean merely an aspect of a clean and jerk? Such you would see in the Olympics? What about mere movement of bodyweight. Is me standing on one leg the movement in whole or is it the aspect of a pistol squat or climbing stairs?

[atomic viper]

Philosophical concept: consider something that is used every day that is made of multiple things. Like a broom. The broom stick and the brush. Certainly it's redundant to say "give the broom stick and brush which are attached to each other ona. Way that allows me to sweep" as opposed to "give me the broom". Now think of what use you have of such an object made of multiple parts but you only know the complete object. You have no name for the distinct parts? What such an item exists or what item do you think will become like this in the future?

[outer spindle]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[wanton lava]

AI

Like neural networks

We don't know the parts or specific code, but we know it and it's function

[cloud flint]

Service work is like a marathon

You have to pace yourself

Balancing your energy with providing the best service you can

[split jungle]

man cannot bear life without surrendering to something higher

[atomic viper]

Yeah they can

[ornate hazel]

Of course we can

Unless it's something obscure like morals or something

[atomic viper]

If it comes down to morality then we have to separate it into two factors. Something more tribalistic and then morals of the more enlightening sense

[pastel osprey]

I think the something higher can also be like, purpose
purpose is a real useful buffer against existential dread

[pastel osprey]

Its the guy!
Who loves um
Pushing rocks or smth idk

[atomic viper]

Yes exactly

[jade star]

My glorious king🔥

[ornate hazel]

Who is that :0

[pastel osprey]

Albert Camus
a french philosopher
famous for the quote "we must imagine sisyphus happy"

[ornate hazel]

OHHH THAT GUY THAT GUY

It's weird associating a face to it

[hexed raptor]

lol

[atomic viper]

You should try his novels sometime

[split jungle]

The world is a heat haze

Maybe im addicted to the longing, and once I have it, I lose a part of myself

[visual vine]

Hoho MANGO🥭 🥭

[wanton lava]

That's what B values are for

Abraham Maslow

[wanton lava]

Depends on the human

[split jungle]

yes thats what I strive for, its what makes me feel alive

[wanton lava]

Honestly I've gotten a lot more chill since the last time I was here
"Life will be lived all the better without meaning"
I like to think I'm an intelligent man that will do great things but right now all I want to do is understand everything big picture. I don't really look into philosophy that much aside from lesswrong

[wanton lava]

⬆️

[wanton lava]

The b values are great but the only one I'm persuing is intelligence

Which I see as connections

[split jungle]

Im glad to hear that, havent seen you in a while too

[split jungle]

I see

Im pursuing truth, simplicity and self sufficiency

[wanton lava]

Radical freedom

The best way to live

Idk why I want truth, or why truth makes something meaningful

I'll ponder that later

Cause I gotta go to water polo

[split jungle]

Yes, but I do still believe in God, and His decree, but I know that we still have our own free will to make choices

Its a difficult paradox I dont entirely grasp, yet

[wanton lava]

Who says God has to be omniscient?

It's best if His constituents believes He is

[split jungle]

because its beautiful, its perfect, its objective

truth is just so objective i cant explain i love it so much

in a world full of lies, its beautiful

[wanton lava]

Objectivity is a new answer

Well cause I didn't think much

[split jungle]

alright enjoy

[split jungle]

I believe that, with conviction

why wouldnt He be

[wanton lava]

Bye

[wanton lava]

He doesn't need to be

I'm not omniscient cause I didn't find every connection, not the opposite

[split jungle]

Then Hes no longer God

[split jungle]

A finite being cant be compared with the infinite, hes outside time and matter

[wanton lava]

Are things infinite by default or nothing by default?

[wanton lava]

Ok, thoughts
Happiness/Experience is the most basic part of myself. To live is to do. Doing is the second part of myself. To do is to learn. Exploration is the third part of myself.

Meaning comes from importance. Something false has no impact, so it's only imporant in it's context.

[split jungle]

"something false has no impact, so only important in its context"

If im understanding it correctly, do you mean outside that context, its meaningless, like someone on social media chasing fame and likes, but its important only in that context, someone thst doesnt have the app for example would never care abt it or them?

_ _

wait i think im getting it now, the false things only matter while the illusion lasts

[wanton lava]

Perfectly stated

The question is should you care abt the illusion while it lasts or if it's indefinite

[split jungle]

it depends

theres harmless illusions like gaming, it gives meaning in the moment, but when you're done, then its over

and harmful illusions, like chasing clout, but once its gone, you're empty

and most of the times people do regretable shit to get chase clout

so it will haunt them (most likely)

[wanton lava]

If it's better after 10 minutes, pursue it

That's a good generalization I think

[split jungle]

10 mins?

isnt that, way too short

yk how many illusions last longer than 10 mins

[wanton lava]

10 mins AFTER illusion

[split jungle]

ohh that makes sense

[split jungle]

sometimes its longer tho, like imagine buying a new car, I think that lasts for a few months before you realise you want more and better

and that one loses meaning

or am i saying something different

[split jungle]

infinity is not an attributie of God, its His essence

Everything in creation is possible existence, but for anything to exist, there must be something higher, a being outside of the creation , not bound by anything

Or it would be part of the creation

He has no beginning, and no end

Because He is outside time and space

And if He did have a beginning, then even He would have been caused, by something before, but then its an endless loop? which makes no sense, therefore, He has no beginning, or He would not be God

[wanton lava]

Would you believe it if I said atheists believe the same thing?
An argument is for something to exist there must be something, you can't make nothing from something.
Although they call it a quantum vaccum

[split jungle]

if its just quantum vacuum, then why does it have all these laws? why exist at all?
I believe God is existence itself sustaining everything

even energy needs God

the difference is ‘quantum vacuum’ is still part of creation and bound by laws, while God isn't

[wanton lava]

I think all physics domains address a logical loop. Thermodynamics - entropy, how stuff spreads. Philosophical so we don't need a loop. Quantum mechanics - how information travels. No laws needed for that, obvioisly. Classical mechanics is justified with gravity

[split jungle]

you're giving descriptions of how they work, not an explanation of why they exist

physics describes the rules, but never explains why they exist

[wanton lava]

Because of logical necessity

[pastel osprey]

Doesn't that just add another step from "why does this stuff exist?" To "why does god exist?"

And if the answer is just "god exists for no reason" or "god exists out of necessity" why couldn't those same answers be applied to the laws of physics or material world, skipping the whole god step?

[split jungle]

Only a being that is outside change, time, and causation can truly be “logically necessary”

[wanton lava]

If it's outside causation then it can't do anything

[split jungle]

Because the universe is full of contingency, so it cannot be necessary

God is necessary existence itself

[wanton lava]

Without effects it doesn't exist

[wanton lava]

Problem of induction

We don't really know that

[split jungle]

hes outside the chain of causes, but God is the source of the chain, im not saying he cant do anything

[split jungle]

the effect is the universe

[split jungle]

i cant comprehend what this means

i cant think anymore rn ill answer tomorrow

[atomic viper]

Things are things by default. The fact they are "things" grants them existence no? So is it logical to say "nothing is real" or "this particular thing right here is nothing" that would mean it's not a thing at all would it not?

[wanton lava]

It is null in some categories and some in others

Existing doesn't need to be everywhere

In all quantities

[atomic viper]

A fallacy in Plato's theory of forms. If I am to define what encaples all forms/aspects this form can be i must then make a new definition to encapsel that itself. But why should I try to encapsel that which encapsels? That would just discredit the encapselation itself.

[atomic viper]

Ehhhh depends on lines of thoughts. To be fair all we know is existence. Everything we see view and comprehend is existence is it not? And any illusion that stems from existence must be logical for us to comprehend it in some way or form. Some people say it is impossible to think of something illogical. Some people may disagree with that but it's that's person mind itself that creates the logic for the thing they imagined

[wanton lava]

Or the negation of it. I have a null amount of people that would tell me they will give me a million dollars to jump for 3 minutes. Those people don't exist

Let's pump the value to a grahams number. To be safe

[wanton lava]

Illogical statement:
A ≠ A
I can comprehend it

[atomic viper]

We can comprehend the fallacy in it

But only because it comes from something logical

Ergo that statement itself holds logic

In a way of thinking in line with Fichte, all we did is demonstrate what has been revealed before. Revelation can only become god (or so says fichte) and anything else is either falsehood in some way or developed from that revelation or demonstrates that revelation

But even if this world the whole set of it good and evil and deities and heaven is all illusion. Does not mean that the pure truth itself is incomprehensible or illogical

[split jungle]

we know what we see: the universe changes, decays, and depends. Thats contingency. Necessary existence cant have those traits

[split jungle]

that regress applies to Plato’s forms, not to God, God isnt an abstract form that needs a higher explanation. His essence is necessary existence itself

[wanton lava]

Is A≠A true? No, but we know why. We can understand that it does not have the category of logic. It doesn't exist in that somain. It's null. We still know if. From this we see if it doesn't exist in some regard, it's null, and has no effects

[atomic viper]

You statement on existence is Plato's forms is my point

[next karma]

descartes has an interesting ontological argument for god

[wanton lava]

Unfortunately I can't imagine a being of infinite greatness, just one with no flaws

[wanton lava]

Unfortunately I can't imagine a being of infinite greatness, just one with no flaws

[paper trellis]

yes

also leibiniz and newton

they argued abt it

[visual vine]

why is penis define testotren

[ember tulip]

because science said so

[verbal whale]

penis told me in my dreams

[wanton lava]

It was unfalsifiable when proposed and sounded right enough so ppl believed it (0.04 r squared btw). What are you going to do, say you have a 2 incher?

[visual vine]

Estrogen mango👶

[latent remnant]

philosophise this!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/957528534421737502/1404522649924665504/IMG_9626.gif

[split jungle]

free will vs determinism, is the cat truly dancing, or is it merely a puppet in human hands?

But the cat's indifference suggests a higher freedom: it doesnt care

cat is free

[latent remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cute-kitty-hump-fast-gif-26504795

[wanton lava]

But where does it's caring come from? Surely it's immaterial. That means we don't know if it cares or not. We don't know if its free

[split jungle]

right, but cat butt wiggle and cat no reaction

[wanton lava]

But we don't know if cat feel and can be free. Maybe cat is just electricity

[ornate hazel]

solipsism

[wanton lava]

Maybe I'm js electricity,
nolism

[atomic viper]

I enjoyed full metal alchemist. Tho Imo tying it to specific things (like middle eastern war) although correct I think distracts you or even blocks your from adaptability of the story into brighter ( as in spotlight into sunlight) and more flourishing horizons you can give the message of the story into. Certainly we can have criticisms on Dante and his snarkiness and somewhat edgy opinions on what people in hell are where and the like given his attitude towards certain people. But we can expand it by his usage of structure of hell and compare it to his concepts of heaven. And taking this comparing and push into categorizing other things and how we can show light of negative and positive things. But if we kept it at "here is the people he is making fun of and these are the people he likes" it's just like ten fun facts on the news channel before transitioning into a new segment. Knowing the facts to go of a thing must be used in order to not mistranslate or misunderstand a work. In the sense of David Lewis' sense. So something is absolutely understood and doesn't misrepresent what it is. Although I say Even if it's misrepresented or goes again the message it's still ok as long as you can explain correctly how you got your concept from and be a me to explain the concept correctly so any misinterpretation is not the fault of you... Now this can get into "it can't be interpreted this way because of the facts behind it." Tho as Werner Herzog said "facts don't give truths" and that's what this is, the truth you get from a work and that truth shouldn't be restricted but what is being put into the creation. But come of the creation..not from it

[wanton lava]

Join secularlist atp

(My tag)

[atomic viper]

Huh

[wanton lava]

Philosophy server

[atomic viper]

Ok send me the link

[wanton lava]

It's my tag

"God"

[split jungle]

so power reveals, not corrupts, assuming we're on the same page here

basically most people are virtuous built on lack of oppurtunity

but giving them power reveals them

but does thst mean all people are hypocrites

what about the ones that have seen through this, eventho they indeed still have lack oppurtunity, they still build themselves, face it, discipline, to prepare for it

and then say to themselves with belief that power cant rot them anymore
they are not rotten anymore , bc they built themselves etc etc

they are virtuous by choice now

is it so? or do u guys think even this person will still fumble when given power?
or do u guys think there are truly virtuous people?

I think there are

hope u get what im trying to say

[atomic viper]

I feel like I'm missing context

[split jungle]

there is no context behind this, maybe my way of writing it is just confusing

[atomic viper]

I think most people are good and therefore disagree with the core of this argument. It's the ignorance a person has in their choices and actions that mainly leads to the bad.

[wanton lava]

I think that power corrupts when idealists justify their actions for the greater good and see all dissent as ignorance, treason, or rivalry

For virtuous people like myself that want power for social good

I don't want to be corrupt, so I was researching how it happens

For your point, power doesn't corrupt, sychopancy and excuses do

[split jungle]

hmmm that makes sense

[split jungle]

hmm yea kinda aligns with ignorance

[visual vine]

this channel so tuff mangoe

[split jungle]

" For I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed. " - Marcus Aurelius

_ _

" I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others. "

Marcus Aurelius

[strange summit]

Can people do anything that is not for themselves ?

[atomic viper]

Yeah typically all the time

[strange summit]

For example

Even if you were to do something for someone else it would only be because you want to

You can’t do something without wanting to do it

Meaning it’s for yourself

Even if you had to cut off your arm to save yourself it’s because you want to