PHILOSOPHY CHANNEL

[azure fractal]

also! IQ has its roots in eugenics

so it's not actually like a scientific intelligence calculator lol

[weak horizon]

IQ is overrated

😎

[ornate hazel]

can a person really and truly change their gender? <@&1305977291695718462>

[weak horizon]

oh boy

[grizzled venture]

dont think so

[weak horizon]

are we talking theory or science...

gender has been referred to as an ideology, rather than the person's sex, which is biological science and factual.

and in theory you can believe whatever you want to

whether what you believe is true or false is irrelevant. It's just an idea, an opinion

[coarse glade]

i think so yeah
as a cis man i might not understand what it's like to feel that your gender does not match your biological sex
but i've seen friends go from miserable to happy people by transitioning

[weak horizon]

that depends on the person though, how they feel about it

there are cases where it's the opposite

[coarse glade]

where they go from happy to miserable ?

[weak horizon]

so it's not really a sign or proof of it working, but it's a possibility

mustard ×D

[weak horizon]

that or going from miserable to even more miserable

[coarse glade]

hmm

the detransition rate was like 1% i think right?

[weak horizon]

i don't know, i'm not looking at those statistics

[coarse glade]

usually caused by social pressure - non acceptance

[weak horizon]

but i have seen and heard stories of people regretting doing hormone therapy in their teenage years. People who felt more miserable after the change, people developing body dis-morphia

[weak horizon]

yeah, that's big part of it why those people become more depressed or miserable

[coarse glade]

dismorphia or disphoria?

[weak horizon]

but also the hormone therapy changed their looks and they didn't like it

[weak horizon]

body dysmorphia*

[coarse glade]

ah ok

[coarse glade]

yeah i bet, i think that with every surgery or physical appearance change there's people who will regret or dislike it

[weak horizon]

but then again, functionally they can't change. Only appearance and mindset

later when we will live in the cyberpunk era, cybernetics, etc

then maybe functionality will be a possibility

but then people will argue that it's not natural, it's artificial...

[burnt tartan]

a person can do whatever they be wanting to do with they gender. Sex however? cant be change

[weak horizon]

ideologies will never be globally accepted.

[ornate hazel]

yeah i agree with this

💀

[weak horizon]

🤷‍♂️

[ornate hazel]

Some people argue that sex can be changed with medical help. Through things like hormone therapy or surgery, a person can make their body look more like the opposite sex even though chromosomes might stay the same, these changes can make a person’s body match their gender identity. So, some believe sex can be changed to fit who someone really is

its a weird topic tho ibr

[weak horizon]

again, it's just an appearance change, not functionality.

[stone osprey]

it really is

[stone osprey]

idk I'm new

[weak horizon]

hello new, I'm Azta

[sullen comet]

i honestly am still confused what gender is so i can’t give an opinion lol

[weak horizon]

gender is what you identify as ( your choice/opinion ), sex is biological

[sullen comet]

doesn’t really make sense in my head tho. cause what does it mean to identify as another gender if it’s not based on masculinity or femininity? like tomboys and femgirls exists

[weak horizon]

tomboy and femgirl are totally different thing

they don't really wish or want to change to their opposite genders, they just act like the opposite gender.

[weak horizon]

and to identify as one or the other, it's just you making up your mind, nothing else. That's why it doesn't matter with gender if you are masculine or feminine, or you have XY or whatever chromosomes. You just believe whichever you want to be.

[sullen comet]

that’s

so

confusing

[weak horizon]

it is what it is 🤷‍♂️

it's as confusing as people believing the earth is flat

or having any belief. People can believe whatever they want

[sullen comet]

well the earth being round has some scientific proof lol

gender got no scientific proof

[weak horizon]

what do you mean?

biology is science

i thought you were confused on how can someone just pick what gender they are. That has nothing to do with science or biology

sex is biology and science, gender is not

[grizzled venture]

So gender has no scientific proof?

[weak horizon]

gender is an ideology, a social construct

i don't see anything scientific about that

that's why gender and sex separated

[grizzled venture]

I mean ig

[sullen comet]

oh wait i misunderstood lol

my apologies

[weak horizon]

it's okay, it can be misunderstood easily

[sturdy lake]

asking the hard questions cass 👏👏🗣️🗣️🗣️

[ornate hazel]

I'm hard

[ornate hazel]

Do you think guilt ever really fades or do we just learn to live with it? <@&1305977291695718462>

[sturdy lake]

hard to say

[weak horizon]

depends... normally you would have to learn from whatever caused that guilt feeling

improve and forgive yourself

[cloud flint]

Hm

Yea guilt goes away

Once you resolve the problem and have done everything in your power to fix the incident

For the most part

Survivors guilt and whatnot

[stone osprey]

yesn't

depends what you did

There are some things that I will never be able to forget that I did

[wanton lava]

Obviously but there isn't a good definition for iq

[sturdy lake]

what ab typing speed

[wanton lava]

😡

[sturdy lake]

😥

[wanton lava]

🔫

[sturdy lake]

🥺

[wanton lava]

💰

[sturdy lake]

😔

[wanton lava]

☺️

[sturdy lake]

🫣

[wanton lava]

🍬🚐

[sturdy lake]

😲😋

[wanton lava]

😂

[sturdy lake]

🚐🏃

[wanton lava]

🚐💨

[stone osprey]

ez clap

[ornate hazel]

If you caused an accident and a person dies do you think the guilt of that would ever go away?

[ancient wharf]

No

[ornate hazel]

Hmm

[ancient wharf]

Both

[cloud flint]

yeah

it isn't gonna be easy

but it wasn't your fault

you'll have to accept that to move on

[cloud flint]

Gender yeah, its just how you identify

Sex no

It’s semantics though

You can’t change XY or XX chromosome to my knowledge

But you can still change ur body which effectively reaches the same goal

Weather that’s ethical or whatnot isn’t for me to decide

[sturdy lake]

imagjne if ur typing speed was ur iq, i would be a potato

[stone osprey]

I'd have an iq about 60% higher than einstein

[sturdy lake]

einsteins typing speed is prbly 2

[sullen comet]

hmm neither. guilt is something we have to learn to overcome. it's hard, especially when you've made a lot of mistakes that have hurt or killed people. but people who have guilt either forgive themselves or just live with it

[azure fractal]

given that he had no keyboards yea

[grizzled venture]

He could have a typewriter tho

[azure fractal]

typewriters were v slow to type in unless you were trained

most men weren’t; that was seen as a woman’s job

[wanton lava]

It can do both. You can hate someone enough that you don't feel guilt anymore

[ornate hazel]

Just pure hatred 😭

[ornate hazel]

Hmm yeah I guess so

[sullen comet]

guilt is a form of self hatred in a sense

[cloud flint]

Guilt is your natural inclination to right a wrong/do better

[ornate hazel]

What does a person with no eyeballs actually perceive

Like

Is it blackness

Or just nothing

What is nothing?

[grizzled venture]

If they are born without eyeballs they see nothing

[graceful stump]

Hard to imagine nothing

But same shit ur seeing from ur elbow

[grizzled venture]

Yeah

[ornate hazel]

That's true

[ornate hazel]

CHAT WHAT IS NOTHING

HOW DO YOU PERCIEVE NOTHING

[jade star]

My idea of nothing is something we cannot even perceive.The inside of a black hole would be nothing

No sight,smell or sound

Nothing would be something we think of as the absence of something

[sullen comet]

the opposite of everything

i don’t think blind people see darkness because that’s what we see when we close our eyes

sane thing when i take off my hearing aids, i don’t hear silence but it’s not noise either, it’s just nothingness. it’s hard to explain when you don’t really have it lol

[weak horizon]

that depends on the blindness. I have been at an expo many years ago, which was showcasing how blind people live day to day. We went through rooms that was setup like a normal living house, and our tour guides were blind people. All the rooms were pitch-black, no light source at all. It was an interesting experience.

someone who goes blind, for them everything can turn black. For people who were born blind ( or no sight ), we have no idea as they have no concept of blackness or any color or light.

[sullen comet]

i’m referring to complete blind people

[weak horizon]

me too

[sullen comet]

uhh

wdym by “depends on the blindness’”?

[weak horizon]

i mentioned 2 types of blindness

[sullen comet]

OHHH

[grizzled venture]

Depends if you were born blind

[weak horizon]

one who was born that way, one who became blind ( either temporarily or permanent )

[sullen comet]

wait my brain is still waking up 😭

my apologies

[sullen comet]

that’s understandable

[weak horizon]

there is a third one too. Poor eye sight, they just see things blurry, but that can be to a point where they are unable to see things clearly.

[sullen comet]

ohhh

true

[stone osprey]

Imagine the missing shade of blue

[sturdy lake]

nooo our role got died 😔

[sullen comet]

:(

wait

azta left

dang

[sturdy lake]

:(

[ornate hazel]

NUHUH

NOT ON MY WATCH

[jade star]

He did?

Damn...

[fresh grail]

Oi bruvs

[ornate hazel]

Yuh

[azure fractal]

disagree

guilt is when you feel responsible

[azure fractal]

most blind people aren’t completely blind /have some usable vision or light perception left

[cloud flint]

Yea u can not be responsible and still feel inclined to act

[azure fractal]

yeah exactly

[graceful stump]

Would kanye being the president be a lot worse than current situation

[ancient wharf]

It would be the best

Hes alot better than trump

[fresh grail]

Probably

He's kind of nuts

[azure fractal]

um?? he's a literal nazi?? they're both awful?? also he's unmedicated and bipolar

[azure fractal]

probably equally bad

[fresh grail]

But it was a Jewish doctor

[wanton lava]

Do*

[ornate hazel]

Why is that so poetic 😭

Writing that in my notes fr

[ancient wharf]

Yea i was being sarcastic

[azure fractal]

ohh i couldn’t tell lol

[wanton lava]

no cause at least kanye would just tweet random stuff and try to not do anything

Trump thinks he is a good president and is doing many things

and at least Kanye won't impose as much tariffs on our allies

[inner crystal]

Hi

[fresh grail]

You never know he might decide to do things

What if he abolishes Jews

[ember tulip]

its impossible to do such a thing

[ornate hazel]

Jews will always come back

[fresh grail]

Why

[ember tulip]

no one attempted successfully this kind of feat

[graceful stump]

this aint fnaf lil bro

[sturdy lake]

why this sound so ominous 😭

i have my first question for philosophy channel

can love be real if u ask for it 😔

[stone osprey]

not if I have something to do about it

[stone osprey]

I think it's a natural thing that both people kinda feel right away

[ember tulip]

Through practice, practice, practice...Practice makes what?

[ancient wharf]

Perfect

[ember tulip]

dismantle that belief

practice makes improvement

[ancient wharf]

I make perfect

Yall dont

[sturdy lake]

practice makes consistent

[ornate hazel]

Love can definitely be real if you ask for it, but it’s more about finding someone who feels the same way. Real love takes time to grow and depends on both people connecting genuinely

[ornate hazel]

nuhuh, practice doesn't always lead to improvement if you're repeating mistakes. Without reflection or adjustments, you prolly might just get stuck in a cycle

[inner crystal]

I am an agnostic but the more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards atheism. I have also been reflecting on the limits of the human mind, the so-called Kantian limits. Is it true that something organic like the human brain could try to understand the universe? I believe that in the end the universe is everything, it just is and there is nothing beyond it, it just is. And time itself never began, it just is. It is impossible for us to understand but it is like quantum and particle wave duality in which the wave behaves differently depending on whether it is being observed, are things that we can not understand but of course not understand something is impossible to understand for us. It is like if you try to make a fly (us) understand mathematics (the “sense” that we cannot see). Another question that I ask myself a lot is at what moment inert matter became alive and decided to grow and survive, that is, because it wanted to go ahead if in the end it is only matter. I don't know if that is the nature of organic matter but I simply don't understand why. Why does inert matter, when it becomes living matter, which is nothing more than a set of inert matter, try to survive? I also think that they are nothing more than chemical reactions. This is why I am more and more inclined to atheism. I have tried to choose the most adequate words but even so now reading it I feel that I have not expressed myself completely, it is difficult to explain.

I don't know if anyone here has also reflected on these questions but I would love to talk to someone about the issue of reality from their point of view.

[ember tulip]

true, studying rn this complicated topic called proof of cash and i cant figure it out which account is right

[graceful stump]

Tldr

[jade star]

Its odd that thinking about the universe as just existing with no meaning behind it would lead you to atheism,however it also makes sense considering using god as a way to explain what we dont know is simply the easier solution.As for me i never believed in any gods at all considering that if they did exist that would mean we could see them act and ive never experienced nor heard that happen anywhere.Personally going atheist can lead you to some dark paths if you arent careful like complete nihilism where if god doesnt exist and nothing matters,why even do anything at all.

[inner crystal]

Atheists are also believers, believers that God does not exist. They cannot prove it, but they still believe it, so they are believers. I am an agnostic, which means I can prove neither one thing nor the other, however, if I were forced to choose which of the two is correct, I think atheism is less far-fetched.

And why do anything, well, because our biology drives us to continue, because the meaning of life is life itself.

[ember tulip]

Do you actually want it or do you want others to know that you have it

[heady heart]

now that I think about it, im probably one of the luckiest people ever, throught my school like, from kinder, junior, senior, up to college, i always had a that one friend that I could really just chill with, I guess im just appreciative of that

[ember tulip]

is it that one friend who you've been friend with from kinder to college til now

[heady heart]

I also noticed ive never really talked to them after every stage, so I just kept moving on from one healthy relationship to another, so when that persons gone, i have this feeling of just being lonely its weird

[heady heart]

no one friend in kinder, move on, anothe friend in junior, move on

[ember tulip]

oh so like new chill friend at some point in life

[heady heart]

its just a thing I can reflect on i guess

[heady heart]

yep

[ember tulip]

i see

i mean like finding and meet new people is inevitable

which is a good thing for development

[heady heart]

maybe I can prolly reach out to old friends that I used to vibe with, but doing that could lead to something not as expected since everyone changes, and me not reaching out for so long is kinda douchy

[ember tulip]

just interact with your old friends at a right atmosphere or right time (like a reunion ig)

[heady heart]

I also recall mentioning to a friend in senior high, "you know after this were prolly never gonna meet again" and I guess that kinda still stuck with me

[heady heart]

that ties into what I was refering to

[ember tulip]

i still stay in touch with my 2 close friends (from SHS) through sharing reels

each other

[heady heart]

like "if god wills us to meet again,"

[heady heart]

thats sweet

I still have that one friend I rarely talk to, like when I have trouble or when i have some achievements, we just talk for a long time and stop talking after a month repeat

[ember tulip]

haha i still remember grade 11, i told (not sure the past tense of it) my first best friend in shs that line similarly

[heady heart]

lol

[heady heart]

it just happened so often its like a pattern almost

[ember tulip]

so like rn im in a different university meanwhile my 2 close friends and other friends are still in that school university

[heady heart]

since its true, you wont have time to meet up, youd be busy, youd have new friends, new hobbies, etc

growing up is nice, you get to reflect a bunch of shit

[ember tulip]

i just decided to go to a different school of wanting to experience a new environment, striving for bigger challenges which i regret and wanting to improve myself in lots of ways

like i recently develop my confidence back (not yet completely but i reduce my anxiety and so)

i interact lots of people (still an introvert tho, mostly talk to my classmates)

or close friends

which i found a new circle

and if you notice, like back then i was very active here last semester, and this semester i only sometimes or barely be active here rn

[heady heart]

i never got that feeling, it just happens i guess, idk why but I started to work out once I bought gym rings, thanks to @reef star and started getting more fit, lossing quite a bit of fat that people visibly notice my ID me looked fat and I look much better now, I'm way smarter than I used to be being a top scorer in our class, yet I still feel as if I started to shift personalities of being conservative, chill, to being an arrogant piece of shit that everyone likes since its kind of a joke but yet again people think im dumb and immature which is kinda hurtful,

[ember tulip]

cuzzz busy stuff and good stuff happen

[ember tulip]

just do you

thats what i did

[heady heart]

just dont rush it like i did, I found confidence in being competent, and that led me to being too arrogant to a fault

I kinda miss my old self but not really, because I used to be lonely asf during senior high at times, bullied a lot, but I had really good relationships with friends

now I have a shit ton of friends, and only one good one

which is not good i think

[ember tulip]

haha ofc, we had this subject or minor subject called purposive communication, every sessions our proffessor never discuss any lectures, instead all of us present our reflection speech every meeting

led me to develop my confidence

but mind blocking is quite a challenge

presenting your speech and suddenly you forgot that one part

and then 50/50 be good or bad

[ember tulip]

do you atleast present your humor personality to them

[heady heart]

I think the shift happened, like me working out, and me getting more into studies was when i wanted to be that one friend I got every new school year, which was a person that stood up for what was right, because before that I went to seek counseling talking about how lonely it was during first semester

[ember tulip]

i see

[heady heart]

I got my humour from a smart friend I used to have, he would make such stupid jokes it was actually funny

but I should find a way to do that but at the same time not really do it infront of people I dont respect as much

[ember tulip]

how do you deal with procastination

may i ask

[heady heart]

i dont? since i actually listen, and if I dont i study 2-3days before hand if I have time

and I noticed studying with people is kinda bad for me ngl,

[ember tulip]

recently i posted a meme about myself in instagram. my classmates and friends, find it funny and compliments and wanting me to post more that kind of stuff and that eventually led me to gain or increase my social status as a classmate

which i safely assume

[ember tulip]

i see

[heady heart]

tbh i dont think I know when that happened for me

i guess I just had good grades and thought it would be funny to show off?

and people didnt mind

i guess

[heady heart]

replying to this

[ember tulip]

i see

[heady heart]

anyways time to eat brb

[ember tulip]

okay eat well

finish your food

[ornate hazel]

Oh man I missed something good

Lemme read this

[dense bane]

Causality and decision making rambling

It’s been said time and time again to make choices and learn from them; mistakes are never permanent.

But that’s just wrong.

It’s a fact that literally any decision has profound and infinite consequences.

Your decision to pick up that penny could somehow kill you in a roundabout way down the line.

Or the decision to smile at a homeless man could bring you fortune like you’d never imagine when he sends you an invitation to his manor party after having become a millionaire.

So I’ve made it a point to ALWAYS pick the best decision in a given situation.

However, I’ve found myself faltering more and more often, until now; having fallen down for the second time in the last month.

As a result, I’ve begun to question the very notion of the “Best” choice, and I think I’ve changed my perspective.

”If worrying about making the best decision leads to a worse outcome, then how can it hold that title? “

I don’t believe it can.

But, what have I done in response?

Well, I’m still working through it, but I’ll give it a go.

I think the “just do it” cliche has more merit than the previous tenet. But more than that, it should be “just pick a decent choice.”

It’s not at all false that some choices are more likely to lead you to an undesirable outcome than others, but pondering too much is guaranteed to increase the chances.

So the middle ground is best

How to know when to stop thinking, or how long to?

That’s the part I’m still considering, but for now, I think you could ponder as much that you’re not anxious but also not blindly embracing a decision

[ember tulip]

you would love to read my message right now as your reading this comment

[jade star]

Question:can you always define the best choice in any given scenario no matter the person?

Also its important to define best choice based on what exactly

[ember tulip]

a choice that satisfies you and it does not result to in vain

[jade star]

So doing something that is simply fun without anybody hurting could be defined as the best choice no?

[ember tulip]

yes, for the better good (the public good or something) plus this involves with rational and morality

but that kind of choice, doesnt always happen neccessarily

lets say you face up an troublesome problem, where there should be no biases involve even if someone you know or loved is involve, make a choice that benefit both sides or atleast give a good impact

but making a rational decision involving people you know is hard

morality thinking

[jade star]

Yeah but thats not necessarily the best choice for you its the best for everyone including you

If we want the best choice for just you its different

Even in said example

[ember tulip]

yeah i learned that from utilitarianism topic

my proff yap that

ethics subject course

[jade star]

Lol im just yapping im a statistician lol

But for me when he asked the question its as if he has a clear definition of morality

Essentially what is white and black can always be defined

[wanton lava]

kill the devil

if you die then thats alr I'm sure God will understand

[ornate hazel]

Honestly, I don’t think there’s always one “best” choice for everyone, ‘cause it kinda depends on what you care about most. Like, is it what makes you happiest, or what helps you later on, or what’s right and wrong? Everyone sees it differently, and sometimes you won’t even know if you picked the best thing until way later

Yeah, it’s super subjective honestly. What’s best for one person might not be best for someone else

[reef star]

@split jungle here it is

[split jungle]

appreciate it a lot !

[ornate hazel]

More proof we need the @philosopher role back

Dunno why I pinged

[reef star]

Why can't you share the vent role

[ornate hazel]

HOW IS PHILOSOHY THE SAME AS VENTING

[reef star]

It doesn't have to be

[ornate hazel]

HAMPTON HOW IS THIS VENTING

READ IT DAMN YOU

[reef star]

Neither role is used that much

Why can't they just be shared instead of doubled

You can ignore the ones in a certain channel

[ornate hazel]

it's just a single more role 🥲

Just 1

[reef star]

Each role is a single more role

No pressure to use it more if you don't want to

But if it's used more we can change it

[ornate hazel]

And yet we have a role that asks us if we are the 'darker side of the force' WHAT FOES THAT MEAN

[reef star]

Or just get 5-10 people to agree to change back to philosopher and I'll change it back

[reef star]

That's light mode, dark mode, and amoled mode

[ornate hazel]

WHY DO PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THAT OVER A PHILOSOPHY ROLE

Actually

[reef star]

It's from 2020

[ornate hazel]

I'll stop talking since this is an unofficial thread lol

Mb Hampton

[reef star]

Oh no you're okay it doesn't bother me lol

If enough people use a role we can use it

[ornate hazel]

Okok I'm working on it

[reef star]

The bigger the grouping the better

It can just be "yap" and apply to many things

Or something

[split jungle]

alright i put this in vent bc i didnt know where to put it but im gonna copy paste it here
:

theres a dark truth about people i always think about. "If they could, they would."
Alright so remember that for a second im gonna break it down.

A lot of people mistake lack of opportunity for virtue. they think they’re humble, when in reality they just don’t have the means to flex.
People will say “I don’t need validation. Im humble” But they’ve never had the power or status to know what they’d do if it was offered.

Put a man in a position of power, then you’ll see who he really is. power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals.

The short guy who says or thinks he’s humble, might not be saying that if he was tall, broad-shouldered, insane jawline. He’s humbled by circumstance, not by choice.

(im using short guy as an example because im short myself)

Most people don’t choose humility. They’re forced into it by life. They wear humility like a badge, but they’ve never been tested with power. If they had it? They might flex just as hard as the people they judge.

I know this for sure because i myself am this. Im humbled by my circumstances as well. I know for a fact that if i had better genetics i would have done some things differently. I can say or think by myself that i wouldnt (which i do), but lets be real here, its almost inevitable.

Ask yourself this: If I wasn’t tested, if I had everything handed to me—would I still be humble?

And also, im not calling myself virtious

[split jungle]

Now ive been thinking again and i realise that there arent actual genuine humble people. And when you think about it, the not humble or cocky ones are more real than the humble ones. At least they're honest about who they are. They dont put on a mask. Even if its ugly, it feels truer than the ones that put on a mask of humility. You can see the true character of a man in the way he treats those who can do nothing for him. But no one would be humble unless they were forced by life. But maybe there are actual genuine humble people, that even with looks, power and strength still treat people with mercy and respect. I hope to find one one day.

[sullen comet]

i mean

what does it mean to be humbled?

to not boast or to show off basically

[sullen comet]

it's possible to do that. everyone has shown off every now and then cause we're humans and humans like attention so we show off our art pieces to our parents when we were younger and show the achievements we've made to our friends and family. it's not necessary a bad thing per say (unless you tell everyone everything and show it all off, that kind of seems like you're trying to gain their approval of being your friend or something (it's also just rude to not want to get to know the other person lol aka asking questions))

there's are genuine humble people tho. i know some of them. i used to go to a pretty good christian church and there's a lot of people there that actually shows what it means to be a christian which is pretty cool. there are humble people, not many but they exist lol.

[sullen comet]

this is just me talking to myself tbh lol

[split jungle]

part of it

well i dont believe there are actual genuine humble people, i believe one way or another they all lack oppurtunity which forced them into humility. Circumstances that drive them into being humble.

[split jungle]

i meant to reply the text above to this

[sullen comet]

i mean you can't really be genuinely humble if you're talking about human nature

cause humans like to show off

humans like to do the exact oppposite of what humble is lol

so if you're talking about in that sense, then yeah i would agree that there's no humble people where their body wanted to be humble

[split jungle]

well humbleness isnt just about not showing off, its also about thinking less of yourself and how you treat people and stuff

[split jungle]

" Man desires happiness yet sabotages himself at every turn. Man is sometimes extraordinarily, passionately in love with suffering. He does not seek peace. He seeks chaos. Because without struggle, he is nothing. " - Dostoevsky

i think without struggle im also nothing. People wont respect if u dont struggle. If u sit around all day doing nothing, whos gonna respect that? When someone sees another struggle and suffer, they somehow respect that. I try to seek struggle as much as possible, doing stuff i really dont want to do, but when i do it, i feel a sense of relief. This is probably what dostoevsky meant. And also, i feel like i have to suffer, so i can 'earn' my life. Simple stuff like taking a shower, eating a meal. I have to earn these things by suffering, or else its not fair. I dont think its fair. Because on the other side of the world, someone doesn't have any of those, no shower, barely any food. So then how can I be content with living without atleast trying to earn it? Or am i going crazy

[atomic viper]

humility and humble can be different things. SHowing off doesn't have to be egotistical it can be to entertain.

[atomic viper]

wisdom is a faceless practice. The monk sits around all day and becomes enlightned. The clerk sits around all day and becomes deprssed and gets a small paycheck. It looks the same from the face of it what is appening inside

The book a job can be a great study on why humans suffer. Suffering may be aprt of human lfie but that doesn't mean you should seek out suffeirng. I think you confuse suffering and effort/ trying to do things. We are humans first. To keep things simple humans do things, and adapt to our enviroments. Its not not suffering thast the issue, its stagnation. this idea of "I have suffered so I hav earned this ease" is not a good mindset.

[split jungle]

you make some fair points and you might be right with me confusing it with effort/trying to do things

but ofc suffering isnt the point of my life, its just what helps shaping me, but then again i might confuse the word suffering sometimes with grit

im also leaning more towards stoicism

[atomic viper]

and waht do yuo define as soticsm

[fresh grail]

Job

[split jungle]

enduring hardships without complaining or losing yourself, and accept what i cant change. I will do everything I can to improve with whats in my control

[atomic viper]

You can change more than you think. It’s just sometimes that leads to a shitty lifd

[atomic viper]

Perhaps you should lean into absurdism more than stoicism

[split jungle]

No because i do believe in god, i dont believe life is meaningless

[atomic viper]

Rhats not what absurdism is

Simply put absurdism is that life has the meaning you define it as.

If you want to keep it biblical it could be seen as a criticism of Calvinism

[atomic viper]

"i am good why bad thing happpen" can be and is a question in absurdism. Peopel wanna say "oh you msut have been doing this and that" when in reality bad things happen becasue they happen. WHat we do in the face of suffeirng and hardship is also a topic that can be had under absurdism.

[split jungle]

ooh mb

well yea maybe leaning into that a bit then, but not my focus

[wanton lava]

stoicism is living in accordince with nature

[wanton lava]

"you can't have pleasure without pain"

[atomic viper]

Sure you can.

What pain is there in a donut

Or smelling a rose

[wanton lava]

Well

If no pain ever existed

No bad smells

[split jungle]

there is an equal and opposite force for everything, every good thing has a bad side. id feel safer to do something hard every day and then be grateful with the blessings i have everyday, this is my way of showing gratitude

[wanton lava]

Then you would compare it with the best smells

And it would be bad in comparison

Because it is the worst smell you'd ever sense

So it is painful

[atomic viper]

you can have neurtral smells

Its very dogmatic to se good and bad things a sdependent on each other. Spiritually speaking bad things are certainly bad for you. Things that have no benefit for your growth. That is bad and your life would eb ebtter without them

This has no effect on the goodness you expreince at all

[runic crane]

If the only smell you've ever known is roses since you were a baby, it won't smell good, or really anything
It'd be like the smell of air
But in life, you remember what shit smells like (and nothingness too). So when you smell roses, you know it's better than that - it could have been shit instead

[split jungle]

" You think you own money? Look closer, it owns you. " - Voltaire

[split jungle]

so ive been thinking about the quote for a while and i got myself into one of the deepest paradoxes of the human condition—
A spiritual riddle wrapped in economy, ego, and desire.

What if you cannot be rich without money owning you? Can you get rich, without the obsession and being owned and blinded by money?

I mean, look at the rich people, they always want to get richer and richer, its never enough. When will it be enough? To detach yourself, so to speak, from this money obsession, by not letting it own you, does it mean you will not be rich? But what if you only think that way, and detach yourself from money and materialistic things, because you are poor?

Would one have acted the same way, if they did have the money? if they suddenly became rich? Would it still be nothing to them?

I mean, i was thinking by myself just a few minutes ago that if i got rich, i would still be the same person i am, i would not let money blind me and i would not let it own me. I would show my gratitude and spend it wisely, not seeking validation nor showing off. But what if because i think this way, i will never be rich in the first place?
Because maybe only the ones that obsess over it, will get it?

Do you understand the loophole im entering?

Can a man be rich…
without being owned by the very thing that makes him rich?

People saying i dont care about money: Perhaps they say this not from true detachment, but because they have no access to it.

[wanton lava]

People can be because there is no reason they can't be

[split jungle]

maybe but ive never come across one

so it remains a question for me

[jade star]

I believe the problem you dont seem to understand is that to even become rich one must act in ways most would consider cruel,meaning looking for pure profit at the cost of everything else

[wanton lava]

Correlation ≠ Causation

The personality someone needs to be rich is almost always one that makes them greedy

Or gamblers

Or WSB

You can be rich, but you need a reason to, if you don't, then it is just greed

Ex) philanthropist want to help people with money, so they aren't controlled by it

[split jungle]

exactly

[wanton lava]

Almost though

[sullen comet]

what defines a human if it’s not by his actions?

[ornate hazel]

A human is really about consciousness, self-awareness, and emotions, not just what we do. It’s those inner thoughts and feelings that make us who we are even if others don't see it

A person is still a human even if they are away from society/other people

[atomic viper]

I would like my Paper Topic to be environmentally based and seeing virtues as rarities/trying to achieve perfection or mastery of certain aspects is detrimental to humans and the environment. I would like to do this mostly through showing the adaptability of humans when it comes to interacting with their environments and life.

does this sound like a good paper proposal

[fresh grail]

Humans are featherless bipeds

[sullen comet]

so what about consciousness, self-awareness, and emotions does it define a human?

[sullen comet]

real

[sullen comet]

i do i do

honestly depends who you ask tho cauze some people might find it interesting while others wouldn’t

[atomic viper]

Response from the teacher: So, the basic idea is going to be something like we should adapt to our circumstances more than we should be adapting our circumstances to us, at least as a default orientation. And it turns out we're pretty good at adapting to circumstances and can have a decent life that way. Whereeas livng according to "perfectionism" to reference Jeffrey or "the control stance" to reference McPherson does not work out so well for us.

Approved.

[dense bane]

Circumstances

[wanton lava]

Questions

That weren't made by someone else

[dense bane]

nard

Frogging needs

friggin nards

[wanton lava]

You use Celsius

Shut up

[dense bane]

https://tenor.com/view/uuh-ahh-turtle-tortoise-interview-gif-2275475775004195204

[atomic viper]

Do you think loyality is vitueous when it comes ot hadning virtue in people with disabiliites

[burnt tartan]

Whay

What

[ornate hazel]

Hurh

Huh

[atomic viper]

In philosophy class today we talked about what things are virtuous. Loyalty was one of them. And I thought in regards to be virtuous to the environment or people with disability, how is loyalty applicable and what does it look like

[ember tulip]

If one culture is bad and harm their own people but thinking it is normal for them and justify it with their religious or culture stuff and plant it to their new off springs or new young or adult individuals to practice it daily or in special occasions, and if few individuals dont want to do it or rebel against it, they will be punished or treated badly by their other fellow people within the community. From the outsider perspective. "Is it morally right to try to criticize those kinds of culture where there are harmful practices within the community but thinking for most cultured individuals as normal but few go against it (examples: the bad practices of FGM) and if you try to criticize those kinds of different cultures , your promoting ethnocentrism.".

[ornate hazel]

If a culture is out here doing messed up stuff like hurting their own people and calling it “tradition,” then yeah, it should be called out. Just because something’s been done for years doesn’t mean it’s not straight-up wrong. If people are getting punished for not wanting to be part of some painful or abusive ritual, that’s not culture that’s control. And if someone says criticizing that is “ethnocentrism,” maybe they’re just too scared to admit some traditions need to die. Not everything old is worth keeping

[dense bane]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/670830310232948757/1008991777451159592/unknown.gif

[pastel osprey]

That kinda reminds me of a great quote
During the colonial era in India some hindus were upset that the British banned their custom of burning widows alive on their husband's funeral pyre.

"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

[atomic viper]

it can be harmful and sitll be culture. That doesn't detrack from what you said, what would be importnat is finding if any aspect of that tradiotnal exists that solve some need of survivablity and flourishment even of a tribe/person. Becaue if it is only detrimental than it is artifical tradition.

[wanton lava]

I think that meat is extremely, extremely immoral. I haven't said anything about it, because thats kind of a downer, but I want to see a meat-eaters thoughts. Natural fishing and hunting are morally fine by me however, and if you need to save yourself, by all means. I think that in our society, meat should be extremely rare, and more humane.

I am vegetarian, not vegan

(also I'm American and the meat industry is awful)

[pastel osprey]

Idk about industrial and factory farming or whatever, but I grew up around a fair bit of regular farming, cows and sheep in fields, chickens running around the backyard, etc.
And I never really got the problem ig. Getting fed and protected and cared for and then being put down quickly seems like a pretty good life and death compared to living with starvation, disease, probably getting ripped to shreds by a wolf in the end who has no qualms about it being long and drawn out

[wanton lava]

Absurdism states that because there is no universal meaning, we should cope. It doesn't mention that we can make our own, or that we should make our own. I dislike it for that, and other reasons. Nihilism says that meaning isn't true. Thought is evidence that contructs exist. Meaning is a construct, so it must exist in some form, that we can make. Existentialism is the best option.

[wanton lava]

I see your point here

However I'm from Socal and most, not all, of our meat, especially the processed ones, are made in deeply immoral ways.

Even if you think that animals aren't conscious, the workers are mistreated. Until The Jungle released, workers had to piss next to where they worked.

(I had to read a book a long time ago about the meat industry for school btw)

[pastel osprey]

That's fucked
Even outside of the moral stuff
Isn't that a major hygiene concern???

[flat turtle]

Realistically probably not too big of a deal since people cook their meat normally

Yea it shouldn't happen

but idk if it would affect it too much

[flat turtle]

So how do you feel about normal people farming

[wanton lava]

?

[flat turtle]

Cuz to me it's the same as fishing and hunting

like normal people raising chickens to slaughter and eat

[wanton lava]

I believe that the problem is there is more suffering than pleasure

[flat turtle]

Chicken deaths are fairly quick

i can't think of a farm animal's death that isn't quick

unless of course they have disease or something

I know with emus they did weird stuff

but those are rarely farmed nowadays

at least in usa

Most farmers keep their animals fairly happy that I know at least. Like with my parent's chickens they were free range until they kept getting eaten by raccoons now they have about a quarter of an acre I think

and I can't think of anything that would cause suffering besides them just being killed

Besides not getting enough mealworm treats maybe haha

If anything I'd argue fish suffer more

[pastel osprey]

Happy animals make better food

[flat turtle]

So true

[flat turtle]

They basically land drown

then get their head cut off

not very quick death at all

Idk i may be looking at this from the wrong angle but I don't see the suffering aspect besides the death but that happens in fishing and hunting too

(talking about regular farming)

[split jungle]

I think I understand now why people go to war, go monk mode, or grind for something bigger. Because they’ve figured out: “If I don’t give myself a mission… I’ll self-destruct.”

If your mind is empty or soft, bad habits will reign. But if your mind is on fire with something bigger, they will back off.

And now the override principle, which I discovered:

Your body, and your brain, can only process so much at once. When a stronger signal comes in, it overrides the weaker one. This isn’t just physical. It’s psychological, emotional, and spiritual.

Example: I sat in the same position for quite a while, eventually my ankle started hurting, then I pinched my hand very very hard, and it overrode the pain of the ankle. " When a stronger signal comes in, it overrides the weaker one. "

So I think, to fix a problem, you just need a bigger one.

[atomic viper]

well someone has an ego on them. BUt I think you are abit misontrued, cause the problem was never fixed, you just lost fcus on it. Now you have two problems and double the work.

[split jungle]

or what if the small one now becomes irrelevant, so its no longer a problem?

lets say that problem was social anxiety, at some point, something might occur to you (like a very big problem) that overrides that whole anxiety thing and you dont even care about that anymore?

or am i making no sense

[split jungle]

huh you mean i have an ego?

[sturdy lake]

my sister went vegetarian ab last april, but afterwards she said she was ok w fish and seafood bc apparently they cant feel love??? T-T

[flat turtle]

huh well good to know from a different perspective i guess

[wanton lava]

4/15/2025. Do we have free will? Yes. Is everything determined? Maybe. How can we have free will if everything is determined(assuming everything is)? Determinism doesn’t take away freedom. What is freedom? Isn’t it the ability to choose otherwise? Yes. Freedom is the ability to choose otherwise, if you want to. Take ordering ice cream. If you want chocolate over vanilla, and get vanilla, it was a free choice. You wanted chocolate, and no external factors constrained your decision. It doesn’t matter if God knew that you would pick chocolate, you still could freely choose it. Well, you couldn’t choose otherwise in the same situation. Maybe, but that is a good thing, no? You aren’t controlled by randomness. Also, you still acted according to yourself, your preferences, and your mind. It doesn’t matter if everyone knew that you’d pick chocolate. If everyone knew that you loved chocolate, and they knew that you would pick chocolate, it is still a free choice to pick chocolate. You could’ve picked vanilla if you wanted to, but you didn’t want to. Acting according to your wants is freedom. And if we can control quantum states(unproven theory), then we do have freedom, and we are uncaused. If God gave us free will, then we have it. We can’t feel an illusion of freedom. It doesn’t work. What if I make an conscious agent, A, in a simulation, and let him choose the path to walk on, and tell him that he is free, but I code that he can only walk on a path? Well, agent A, can try another path, and see that he can only walk on path A, breaking the illusion of freedom. If A was conscious(conscious means aware), then A would be conscious of the other options and try them(assuming no incentive for either path). Agent A either has to be free, or has to be able to see the illusion. Therefore, you can’t simulate free will, however this is a weak point of my argument and I’d prefer this part not be attacked

Edit: forgot the last d when typing

Suppose someone’s desires were programmed by a neuroscientist. They act according to their desires, but were they truly free? Well, they can fight their desires. For freedom, it is necessary to question everything. For example, I, as many others, have questioned nearly everything. As a species, we founded psychology to study the mind and the mind’s desires. We have found ways to “break” desires, through therapy. Now this ties into awareness, as once you find a desire that doesn’t have a reason behind it, you can break it. However, if the desire makes you live a better life, adds more color, or meaning, it is a good desire and a good thing to have. That would be passion. You can tell what is desire and what is passion based off of how good you feel after completing it.

This ties into my existentialist philosophy, which you may or may not belive in

In addition, I try to exclude religion, as I believe it should be seperated from philosophical arguments since people believe different things

[wanton lava]

However, this is a weak rebuttal. There is another lens you can take. The manipulation argument states that neuroscientists reprogram the brain. However, reprogramming the brain eliminates the possibility for self reflection. That is a facet of consciousness, and of freedom itself. It’s basically saying: If we take away your freedom, you are unfree. A deterministic environment does not interfere with self reflection and/or change. That is separate from manipulation. Manipulation is a type of causation, but causation isn’t always manipulation.

Freedom is not the absence of a cause. It’s the presence of a conscious response.

[wanton lava]

Killed chat 😭

[split jungle]

😭

[grizzled venture]

Too many words to read

[atomic viper]

Ok gonna write my philosophy essay tonight

[wanton lava]

are you actually doing philosophy

like in college or whatever?

[atomic viper]

yes

[wanton lava]

On what

What are you writing your exam on?

[atomic viper]

This semster is virtue rthics

Virtue Ethics

[wanton lava]

Yeah I was pondering abt that recently

[atomic viper]

what about it

[wanton lava]

trying to build an ethics system that doesn't require a God

/justification

[atomic viper]

The oen you are living right now

[wanton lava]

It works ig, but a better one

[atomic viper]

Then be SUPER tradtionalsit aobut ti in aporach

[wanton lava]

This one also isn't very effective at stopping crime and unethical behavior

[atomic viper]

The Code of Ur Nammu, odlest known laws we have, some laws are dated but if you eant the inate structure of human society, thats a good place to start

[atomic viper]

Neither was religion

[wanton lava]

Did you read what I wrote above?

[atomic viper]

I tohut you ment the one we are currently in

[wanton lava]

?

[atomic viper]

We are not in a ethical society based on religion

[wanton lava]

ik

[atomic viper]

SO its not effectice so to speak at stopping crime and unethical behavior then?

[wanton lava]

Honestly democratically agreeing on laws to follow in specific regions is probably a really good system

[wanton lava]

that's what I was pondering about

[atomic viper]

Ok then

What do you think is societal and what do you think is natural

[wanton lava]

I'm going to exclude psychopaths from my definitions btw

[atomic viper]

Ok

[wanton lava]

I think that natural ethics are about stopping pain to yourself and people similar to yourself, because a psychological tension forms

Societal ethics are collective agreements to refrain from acts for the benefit of everyone

[atomic viper]

Think broader

We are social creatures, at least 88ish% of the time

[wanton lava]

Natural ethics: Avoiding pain and Wanting pleasure

[atomic viper]

So that measn we are part of tribes

[atomic viper]

so hedonistic is your view

[wanton lava]

Societal Ethics: Collectively agreeing to not do actions for the good of everyone

[wanton lava]

I suppose

[atomic viper]

Very good, good of everyone in the tribe, or the palnet if you wanan be... somewaht one world government with it but

The association with thes other tribes is whats important here

[wanton lava]

You get pleasure from helping others because you resolve tension formed by others suffering

[atomic viper]

Not that everyone agrees

[wanton lava]

but most do

[atomic viper]

SO what si good for the tribe is doing actiosn thats good for evryone in that tribe

What si good for any group and tribe

[wanton lava]

yes?

[atomic viper]

Tell me, waht does it mean for a tribe that good things happening

What does it look like

[wanton lava]

like

Happiness, lack of pain

[atomic viper]

Ok thats good thats fine

But is that all?

painkillers and ice cream and saturday mornign cartoons?

[wanton lava]

Yeah

There are some pleasures higher than others

[atomic viper]

Would we be here if that was it?

If this was all for pleasure?

[wanton lava]

I count creativity as a pleasure

I count love and friendship as a pleasure

because they reduce and eradicate pain

[atomic viper]

ok, but that jsut means boredom

Which si fine

[wanton lava]

boredom is a pain

[atomic viper]

lots of great things came from boredom

[wanton lava]

pleasure and pain is a cycle

[atomic viper]

like kettlebells and card games

But how do you decipher waht pleaures are ethical or not

[wanton lava]

you do

[atomic viper]

I asked you how, not if its possible or not

[wanton lava]

based on how others are affected

also, a good rule of thumb is

[atomic viper]

and how should they be affected

[wanton lava]

if you feel better the day after

[atomic viper]

don't forget how you yourslef are affected, you are part of the tribe afterall

[wanton lava]

neutrally or benefitted

yeah

you too then

[atomic viper]

Benefitted, and what happesn when things are benficial for tribe, how does that look

[wanton lava]

There is less pain

or more pleasure

however you want to look at it

[atomic viper]

But what oes that look like, when things are going good for a tribe or city what does that look like

[wanton lava]

it means that life satisfaction is higher on surveys

[atomic viper]

So lfie gets better then

[wanton lava]

yes

[atomic viper]

And its virtous for lfie to get better

[wanton lava]

Yes, long term

It isn't virtuous to prioritize the short term

[atomic viper]

My arms broke, it has to be casted, thats short term

[wanton lava]

Fair

[atomic viper]

Im thirsty, should I wait till im dehydrated to dirnk

[wanton lava]

Also Fair

[atomic viper]

SO virtue, is beneftical to yourslef and those in your tribe.

[wanton lava]

Yes

[atomic viper]

SO what deos that make for your ethics to be virtuous

[wanton lava]

I believe in 3 domains

Pleasure/Pain, Freedom, Creativity

[atomic viper]

And how were these revealed to you

[wanton lava]

existential crisis

[atomic viper]

ANd have you developed them past the crisis?

[wanton lava]

a 4th could be social interactions though that goes with 1) and 3) if you think about it

[wanton lava]

I'm almost done

[atomic viper]

And do you think you are prepared to demostrate such revelation

[wanton lava]

You must be free, because if you aren't free, then you are trapped by pleasure, pain, impulse, and randomness. You must have pleasure and pain to be happy. And Creativity is the highest good that I could come up with, though that is personal

[atomic viper]

randomness

So ypu think control msut be had to be free

[wanton lava]

yeah

its either control or randomness

and happiness through randomness is... well... random

[atomic viper]

And what aboutt higns you cannot control

[wanton lava]

if you can find happiness through disipline then you will always be happy

[wanton lava]

you must find peace with your mind. If you do, you won't stress about them

[atomic viper]

You would ratehr have no stress thans means of handling the stress that comes to you then

[wanton lava]

There is nothing to stress about

One second

[atomic viper]

Whast wrong with stress

[wanton lava]

nothing, as long as it doesn't lead to suffering

suffering for a cause is deeper pleasure as it is expressing the meaning that you forged in life

suffering out of stress is pointless

[atomic viper]

So in more fancy words, you see the suffeirng coming from stress not benficial to the florushiment of yourself and other?

[wanton lava]

I confused stress and anxiety

stress is motivational, anxiety is inhibitory. while both have their place, I've been over stressing

[atomic viper]

And is one of these bad in itself

[wanton lava]

I don't think so, its just that when one is unbalanced, it can be bad

And for me, one was unbalanced for a long time

I suppose no emotions are bad, if balanced

So maybe the true virtue is balance

[atomic viper]

Which is soemthing aristotlian

or maybe alos platonian if you perceive it as such

[wanton lava]

Idk much of the famous ones

I know who they are just not their beliefs

[atomic viper]

Aristotle is famosu for. lot of insight but modernly it is most liekly known for the golden mean and Eudaimonia, a word meaning the fullfilling of lfie through authhenic self-realization. Living in accorance to one's true values and purpose

But that mindset lead us away from ethics more and more

[wanton lava]

Ig

Meaning is creation, observation, and destruction. The subjective meaning of life is the ideal combination in specific areas

[atomic viper]

Braoden your horizons some

The univers eis uncarring in your quest to give life meaning

[wanton lava]

It is a human quest

[atomic viper]

Its an individaul quest

There is no absolute authoritiative meaning, only the oens you give it

[wanton lava]

Just curious, what is virtue for you?

[atomic viper]

Expression in a means of no detriment to yourself and others of course to me detriment is soemthing you can't recover/learn anything from (no advancememt can be ahd from it, you are no ebtter or have no means to be beter than befoer it has happend) To this we can add needed destrouction is not virtous and care for the environment yadda yadda. And if that is not a good definiton. of virtue to you the cosndier it soemthing that brings fourth flourshment to you and your people.

The altter is much easier to gain info and insight from

[wanton lava]

Sometimes you need destruction for creation

[atomic viper]

Creation adn destruction are irrelevant to me, people die, and new peopel are born. That in itself si detruction adn creation

But ocne again,new people is part of floursishment or at leasta. strive to do so

@wanton lava what is a human to you

[wanton lava]

A type of bipedal monkey

[atomic viper]

And what do humans do

[wanton lava]

many things

either a survival thing or an aesthetic thing

[atomic viper]

What would you say is something all humans do

[grizzled venture]

Sleep

[atomic viper]

And how do you go to sleep

[grizzled venture]

I lay in bed and hope that it won't take longer than like 30 minutes to fall asleep

[atomic viper]

So you lay down

What about eating. How do you get food

[grizzled venture]

Usually my mum makes it for me

[atomic viper]

And what do you do with the food

[grizzled venture]

Eat it?

[atomic viper]

Yes

So eating, sleeping, drinking water. All things every human does

And how does a human do these things?

Movement

Every human moves

[grizzled venture]

Not everyone, some are disabled

[atomic viper]

And disabled people don’t move?

[grizzled venture]

Some don't

Like completely paralyzed

[atomic viper]

Then tell me. How can that person be virtuous

[grizzled venture]

Wdym?

[atomic viper]

They have no possible way to interact

Can that person be virtuous

[grizzled venture]

What's the meaning of virtuous?

[atomic viper]

How would you like to describe it

[grizzled venture]

I simply don't know that word

[atomic viper]

A typical definition is having or showing high moral standards

[grizzled venture]

If they can't move they can't show anything

[atomic viper]

So what is there to gain by keeping them alive

[grizzled venture]

Nothing, if there is no way they can get better I think they should let them die

Even tho I believe in miracles, so there is always a possibility

[atomic viper]

Nothing eh

What about the understanding of how to care for a person

[grizzled venture]

Ig

But I still feel like it's pretty selfish

[atomic viper]

That’s pretty good.

[grizzled venture]

Idk about you, but if I'd have to choose between never being able to move or dying rn I'd choose the second option

[wanton lava]

Meaning is significance, and significance is impact, and impact is relative, based on the indivisual

@atomic viper What do you think of Camus?

Me personally, I see his interpretation of Sisyphus as an existentialist one

Sisyphus makes his own meaning and journey out of pushing the rock

[grizzled venture]

But he didn't choose it

And I am 100% sure that he'd stop if he could

[atomic viper]

Pretty good comprehension for absurdism. You should read his novel “the plague”

[wanton lava]

But isn't absurdism either optimistic nihilism or existentialism

[wanton lava]

He chooses his response, which is to eagerly keep pushing the rock

[grizzled venture]

What response, pushing rock is what he was sentenced to

[atomic viper]

Absurdism can also be defiance against a universe that gives no meaning or care to you and your people. Or the idea that we give meaning to things/ the meaning of life is what we give it

[wanton lava]

Isn't that existentialism

[flat turtle]

me

[atomic viper]

busridsm relates more to out inate desire tos trive to find meaning

[wanton lava]

Meaning is either creating or destroying

Meaning = significance = impact

[atomic viper]

Why cant meaning be existing

[atomic viper]

Man I still feel bothered abotu his philsophy essay I wrote, it could eb so muhc more

[split jungle]

Can one chase the world without losing his soul?
Or does he have to detach himself from wordly affairs, to keep his soul?

It sounds impossible to have both

I would choose my soul first, do you guys think that if you chase your soul first, the rest will follow? Or because you chase your soul, the rest (worldy shit) cannot follow? Because to keep your soul, you must be detached from all those things? Am i making sense or am i going crazy

oh wait maybe marcus aurelius is an example of it, he was an emperor but also kinda humble

[heady heart]

whats even the difference between love and friendship for yall?

I feel like Finn right now, his deepest love is his friend Jake, my deepest love is my friends, theyve stuck with me during times I ignored, insulted, and even abandoned them, I learned from those mistakes, I became a better person with their guidance, and as of now I feel as if I can't possibly experience such love in the future, its not that I don't want love its just the idea of it is so confusing to me. For friendship, real friendship is where you can do whatever the heck you want, you have the freedom to not go with them, you have the freedom to choose to go with them, and its rare to find ones that stick with you knowing those two options exists, such as me for example, so to me love is just another layer of a good solid foundation of friendship but with an extra layer above it,

i guess I just dislike the idea of fast love being how the media portrays it like fast fashion, you see something you like instant love, and i'm more into a place where I have breathing room, no cravings, no nada, just you and people you can go to if theyre available, if not CHATGPT BABY!

[jade star]

Its a tough question considering i lack the experience but if i had to give my opinion it would be someone that means a lot to me and i would choose to spend the rest of my life with.Now a friend could be argued to be very similar but to me a lover would be someone thats a step above my best friend so they would be similar in meaning but different in power.That and usually you dont love someone thats the same gender as you so theres already the difference in gender to consider

[atomic viper]

To quote a Buddahist way more devouted than me: “dude you’re grinding in world of Warcraft. Step away from the computer. Wake up. It’s just a game. You are grinding in world of Warcraft m. All these spiritual practices are you trying to add experience points to a character that doesn’t exist. You forgot you were playing a game.”

[pastel osprey]

I might be a tad old fashioned, but to me the difference is that my friends and I are still separate people, we have our own lives, we're close, but we are two entities close together. When I think of what I want from love, I think of building one life with someone, sharing a home, a life, an everything. It's not two close people, but one couple. Like the bible said "A man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"

[split jungle]

hmmm i understand

[wanton lava]

Yeah obviously

[wanton lava]

I walk a lot to take in my beautiful city

I don't lose my soul, it grows stronger

I like to read

I don't lose my soul, it grows stronger

[split jungle]

u didnt get what i meant then

[wanton lava]

Did you mean money?

[split jungle]

yes

the world says: I will give you riches, in return give me your soul

[wanton lava]

4/23/2025

Realism Philosophy + Radical Skepticism

1. Antirealism needs a valid reason, and realism doesn't.
2. There are no reasons that are valid for antirealism(simulation theory is still realism)
3. Realism is valid

Free will

1. A free action has no constraints
2. The conscious mind is aware [of constraints]
3. The conscious mind can choose what thoughts to follow
4. Thoughts to follow cause actions
5. The conscious mind can do actions
6. Actions can take away constraints
7. The conscious mind can take away constraints
8. Acting without constraints is freedom
9. The conscious mind can become free by removing external and internal constraints
10. (Out of order) The conscious mind is aware of it and the unconscious through techniques
11. This proposes radical freedom once you become free
12. This does NOT require libertarianism and is compatible with determinism, however libertarianism could be true.

Religion:

1. Everything in our universe needs a cause
2. Our universe needs a cause
3. (For the rest of argument, I'll presuppose quantum fluctuations as the cause) Quantum Fluctuations have rules that they follow
4. Something or Someone must've made those rules
5. That entity is God
6. It is unknown if God intervenes personally

Why suicide shouldn't be persued(secular)

1. The opposite of suicide is living
2. Living is the default
3. There is no reason to die
4. You should go with the default
5. Getting closer to suicide from living like cutting is bad(physically, emotionally, spiritually)
6. The ultimate form of self harm must be bad
   (5 and 6 are weaker and optional)

[wanton lava]

bet

but if you're rich you can explore art, music, books, the great outdoors

most naturalists were rich

media polarizes the rich, most live out in secret wealth

[pastel osprey]

On the free will part
How do we prove 3?

[fresh grail]

I think it's one of those things that proves itself

[wanton lava]

Simply that thinking

Think about a red elephant

Then change to a blue elephant

Then change back

[pastel osprey]

I can complete those actions
And I might "choose" to
But how can we say that there was an actual choice there and that it wasn't predetermined? Just a consequences of photons hitting nerves and neurons firing as physics dictates?

[wanton lava]

So what? Just because it is determined doesn't make it less free

Compatabilism

You could have done otherwise, if you wanted to or found it to be better

[pastel osprey]

Perhaps
But could I have wanted that or found it to be better? Or were my wills and desires always set to be such?

Where is the freedom?

[wanton lava]

Conscious control

[wanton lava]

Conscious freedom

[pastel osprey]

Does the consciousness have any freedom or control?

[wanton lava]

Yes, to shape itself and to shape the subconscious

[pastel osprey]

Is this just an axiom that you're starting with? Because I'm not really sure about it

[wanton lava]

It is taken as true for the argument

Everything hinges on it

[wanton lava]

You made the choice, you are the thing determining it

[pastel osprey]

If we take that as true, I can see how everything else falls in place
I'm just not sure I'm on board with that important bit

[wanton lava]

I take it as true because of my subjective experience

A weaker point

So I guess I can't prove it definitively

[pastel osprey]

I would like to believe it's true
And I can't say i know either way
I just sometimes doubt it even if I want it

[wanton lava]

Satre said that we are condemned to be free

Radical freedom

[pastel osprey]

I need to actually read philosophy one of these days
I tried, a while back, but couldn't get into it very far before feeling mentally exhausted

[wanton lava]

I believe any conscious action is free but idk about how others are conscious

[wanton lava]

I used chatgpt to summarize it and eventually I could reas by myself

Try this ine

Easier to read except for light cone

[pastel osprey]

Thanks
I'll give it a go

[wanton lava]

Free will argument for those who didn't see it

[split jungle]

A great ship, called the Ship of Theseus, is preserved in a museum.
Over time, its wooden parts start to rot, and piece by piece, the planks are replaced.
Eventually, every single part of the ship has been swapped out.

Question:
Is it still the same ship?

And it goes further:

Let’s say someone gathered all the original, rotted pieces and built a ship from them.
Now that ship also stands somewhere.
So which one is the real Ship of Theseus?

[fresh grail]

Neither

[grizzled venture]

It's not the same ship, but it's still a Ship of Theseus

That whole question is basically if we value more the idea of some thing or that thing as a object

[hexed raptor]

i dont think it can be simplified that much

[median fern]

why is sisyphus happy? is he stupid?

[grizzled venture]

Why should he be happy?

[ember tulip]

I welcome greenies.

[fresh grail]

No you don’t

[split jungle]

The Story of Diogenes and Alexander the Great

One day, Alexander the Great, ruler of the known world, the most powerful man alive, heard about a strange philosopher named Diogenes.

Diogenes lived without luxury: no house, no fine clothes, no possessions.
He slept in a large clay jar (some say a barrel) and owned almost nothing but a cloak, a staff, and a bowl — which he later threw away when he saw a boy drinking water with his hands.
(He said, "A child has outdone me in simplicity.")

He was a man who rejected society’s illusions of wealth, fame, status, and comfort.

Alexander, curious, decided to visit this strange man.

When he found Diogenes, he saw him lying in the sun, relaxed, without a care in the world.

Alexander, standing tall and magnificent, said:

"I am Alexander the Great. Ask anything you wish of me, and I shall grant it."

Diogenes, without even sitting up, casually replied:

"Yes. Stand a little out of my sunlight."

No flattery.
No begging.
No recognition of the "greatness" standing before him.

Alexander reportedly said afterward:

"If I were not Alexander, I would wish to be Diogenes."

Because he realized in that moment,
Diogenes had a freedom that even Alexander, with all his armies and treasures, did not have.

[atomic viper]

Diogenes once hired a hooker but she took to long to show up so he relieved himself instead

[jade star]

Also i once talked with someone that told me at the end of his life he literally became a slave to a rich person or something along those lines

[split jungle]

damn, i didnt know that

[split jungle]

so even he could not resist lust

[ornate hazel]

How does bro know this

[split jungle]

its a rumor

[split jungle]

Most people are slaves to it. So when you mention it, they will react back aggressively or with hate.
Their ego kicks in, instead of facing it, they mock. A childish defense mechanism.

Clarity comes with pain. Am i insane for being disgusted? Or is it the price of awareness?

I will question and dismantle. It is not only normalized, its worshipped. These people are living proof that the devil doesn't even need to hide anymore.

[fresh grail]

Are you talking about phones

[split jungle]

no, lust

[fresh grail]

Oh basically same thing

[azure fractal]

aromantic ppl found the cheat code

[split jungle]

i agree

[hearty garden]

https://youtu.be/E2x2WTWjcEA?si=KIp9wre76OyUvIPS

[split jungle]

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes."
— Marcel Proust

[wanton lava]

Albert Camus days that he knows that his task is pointless, but that he decides to rebell against nihilism, which gives his life meaning and he champions over his fate

[wanton lava]

So, what's the problem here? Not being able to control it?

[wanton lava]

Do not agree with Camus, as many don't

[split jungle]

Its deeper, a person not being able to control lust becomes programmable. Marketable. Controllable. It ruins commitment. It makes people disposable.

It destroys your soul. Empires fall from within.
Rome decayed through gluttony and sexual indulgence.
Men no longer trained. Women no longer raised children with values.
And when the enemy came, no one had the strength to fight back.

It helps collapse society.

And nowadays, no man dares to conquer it

[pastel osprey]

Are we sure it was the food and sex that led to the fall and not like, powerhungry backstabbing, unsustainable expansionism, an economic system that was more fitted to a city state than a continental power, and poor understanding of germ theory for how connected and urbanised they'd become?

That's not even addressing external and circumstantial pressures that are basically bad luck like the Huns driving goths into Roman territory leading to cultural divides, christianity adding to the lack of cohesion and homogeneity, or epidemics and pandemics springing up on top of all this instability

[split jungle]

sure, but they are all factors

[wanton lava]

Lowk it's not that deep. Lust is controlled by overcoming desires step by step and practicing self compassion. It is important to not be too hard on yourself. If so many people had a problem, then why don't I see them in person?

Have, not had*

[split jungle]

You don’t see them fighting it because most people aren’t fighting. They’ve surrendered.
No one dares to confront their own darkness, so they mask it, justify it, normalize it.
But if you look close enough and open your eyes and look around you, you will see the chains around every person. Trust me, its not about whats visible. Its about whats avoided

Most people dont talk about it because they’ve already surrendered to it. They normalize it. Joke about it. They dont see the chains because they’ve never lived without them. They enjoy their cage, decorate it, and love being held by a leash.

If you’re not disgusted by that, maybe you haven’t gone deep enough yet.

You think just because no one talks about it, it’s not there?

[wanton lava]

So if these chains are invisible, how do you know that they exost

Exist*

And how do you know that people aren't trying to fight

Maybe they're embarrassed

[split jungle]

I see dead men walking every day, men who sold their fire for comfort. Talk about ‘self-compassion’? Tell that to the relations that fell because they couldn’t keep it in their pants. Tell that to the broken marriages, to the numb teens, to the people who need lust just to feel something.

[wanton lava]

That's not my question

How do you know that it is a holoendemic

[split jungle]

if you look close enough, you can tell, you’ll see it in their eyes, in their habits, in their emptiness

[wanton lava]

And not a rare occurrence

[split jungle]

the chains of lust? they are invisible to those who dont dare to confront it, who think its normal

[wanton lava]

So, if I never watch porn, I have chains cause they are invisible?

[split jungle]

what? you didnt get my point

[wanton lava]

Your point as I understand it is that most people have chains of lust and don't know it

My objection is that you don't know if most people have it or just a few

[split jungle]

ah, i mean that most people have chains of lust, they might know it, but because they normalize it, the chains become invisible and the people are no longer aware of the chains, does this make sense?

[wanton lava]

Yeah but why is it a problem?

[split jungle]

you dont think lust is a problem?

[wanton lava]

If someone does it only a few minutes everyday, sure it's not great, but it's not that deep

[split jungle]

i dont blame lust itself, but the ones who cant control it

[split jungle]

Maybe you're right, maybe for some, it isnt that deep. But that doesnt mean it isn't deep for those who actually fight it.

[wanton lava]

You can't convince the people without shame

If someone doesn't think they have a problem, they won't listen to your solution

[split jungle]

Because we live in it. Swim in it. Breathe it. But most are too numb, too afraid, too weak to name the poison. Lust is not just a sin. It's the leash. And most people? They wear it proudly.

[split jungle]

then they are blind

[wanton lava]

Not necessarily. True, it is accessible, but not forced.

Like a climbing a tree in a forest

You can, it isn't forced

[split jungle]

Not forced? Are you kidding me? It’s in every ad, every scroll, every trend. Women turned into products. Men reduced to consumers. You cant even walk through a mall without being flashed by lingerie models on glass. Every popular app? Engineered to exploit your dopamine through lust. Instagram, TikTok, even Twitter, it’s a softcore buffet 24/7. The music? Sexualized. The fashion? Sexualized. The humor? Sexualized. Kids are exposed to this shit before they even hit puberty.

*orn sites have more traffic than Netflix, Amazon, and Twitter combined. BILLIONS of views a day.

So tell me, is it not forced?

[wanton lava]

Still an option

Get yt premium or something

[split jungle]

You think rubbing one out daily isnt a big deal? Its because they've already sold their soul so many times they dont even hear it screaming anymore. They’ve normalized weakness. They’ve made peace with slavery. They ask the devil for more while it pets their head saying good boy. Lust is feeding on your brain, your drive, your life force, and you’re just sitting there, calling it "not a problem" while your spine rots and your will withers

[split jungle]

not just the ads bro

[wanton lava]

What's wrong though. You keep talking about chains, but moderation is the best thing

Sure, overeating is a chain

But regular eating is fine

Sure, overconsuming is a chain

But under consuming is one too

A life of moderation is best

[split jungle]

Moderation is only freedom when you choose it. But most dont. Lust isnt being moderated, its being tolerated. There’s a difference. People aren’t in control of it, they’re ruled by it, yet they convince themselves they’ve chosen it. Thats not moderation. Thats enslavement in disguise.

True moderation is only possible when you’ve first mastered abstinence, when you know you can walk away at any time, and still do it out of discipline, not desire. Most people dont know that place. So dont call it balance. Call it what it is: coping

And if you think you have mastered it, ask yourself: Can u last 365 days without it? If you even have a single drop of doubt, you already got your answer.

[wanton lava]

So how do I know if I'm disciplined or if I'm enslaved?

A year is likely far too much for your point, but I could if given a reason to.

[split jungle]

No its not, lets say the reason is to conquer your desire. Would you be able to do it?

Or the reason is to prove you're not a slave to it, would you be able to break free from the cage?

[wanton lava]

I very rarely do it. My argument is that it is fine to do it occasionally

[split jungle]

Alright, if you’re fine with it

[wanton lava]

Do you believe in free will?

I do, and I have a novel theory

Freedom isn't the absence of constraints, but the ability to choose them

Every want or constraint has another opposite one that you can choose

It's expanded deeply in a play that I wrote and will post here soon

[split jungle]

Yes i do as well and I agree with that totally

[split jungle]

i meant to answer to this

but honestly, i only apply it to me most of the time, like everyone can do as they wish. Whether it’s right or wrong, that’s not for me to judge. My only duty is to master myself.

But ofcourse, i am not perfect

[wanton lava]

However I believe that freedom includes the ability to stop or continue a constraint

[wanton lava]

Same but we do it in very different ways. Do you knoe thr BSA 3 core values?

[split jungle]

no

[wanton lava]

Physically strong, mentally awake, morally straight

Those are the 3 I try to expand

[split jungle]

sure, but i believe some must be permanent, for me, its sticking to the truth, even if it kills me

[split jungle]

I totally relate to that

[wanton lava]

I do too. You should read my play. I'll post it soon

[split jungle]

Alright

its nice seeing a different perspective

[wanton lava]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1stgvrzaooEcrpkp4vRTD05QkGgoi6zirjSuzgCR3jWQ/edit?usp=sharing

@split jungle Here. It's pretty short, it'll take around 30 minutes to read

[split jungle]

alright

[pastel osprey]

I don't really see the difference between being a slave to what your consider to be virtues and what you consider to be vices.

At the end of the day, you are doing whatever you do because you have a stronger desire for one thing than another.

You're still a slave to your desires even if your desire is to be whatever your idea of virtuous is.

Edit: I recognise the world in general and maybe even on an individual level would probably be better, my main qualm is with whether vices are any more chains than virtues

[wanton lava]

Yes, except for one thing

You have a conscious mind

You can stop start or continue a thought

And the conscious isn't studiable with science

Cause it isn't a part of the natural world, and it can't be broken into separate parts

[wanton lava]

Living one or the other completely is bad, but moderation is key

Here's another angle

Freedom is the absence of constraints

We can take away constraints

Virtues and Vices according to our conscious will

[wanton lava]

Alex O Connor brought this point up and there are many refutations but I think mine is the most coherent

[pastel osprey]

I'm still not sold on all this conscious mind stuff
if it's so unstudiable, how can we say for certain these things about it
that we can stop or start or continue thoughts, and that it doesn't just do that on its own regardless of what we might like

[wanton lava]

Slave implies you can't overcome it

[wanton lava]

That is studying the subconscious

That's what psychology is

And limited awareness

[wanton lava]

Our only evidence is experience

Your argument as I understand it: Either you make a decision out of virtue or vice. Because you need a reason, you aren't free. But you decide between the two, no?

[split jungle]

Everyone is a slave to something
The truth is, true freedom doesn't come from having no master, its about choosing the right master
Being a slave to your lower desires? Thats prison
Being a slave to your mission? Thats liberation

[pastel osprey]

no deciding
you want to be virtuous or you want to enjoy vice more
and you follow that want
I don't see any reason to believe the amount of desire leading one way or the other isn't predetermined

I have given into temptation in the past, gluttony, sloth, etc
and I have also upheld virtue on occasion, truth, loyalty, kindness, and so on
and I'm not sure I had any say in wanting to be truthful or loyal or kind
it feels good and right, and I wanted to be that, and so I did it
but I didn't choose for those good things to feel good, that's just how I am, whether my nature or nurture

[wanton lava]

Do you like to lift really heavy weights?

[pastel osprey]

yeah

[wanton lava]

Another objection: Why aren't we free? If I want to be an astronaut, I can be one. If I want to be jacked, I can be. I want to do both, but I can choose to follow it or do something else

[wanton lava]

Did you always like it?

[pastel osprey]

I think so

[wanton lava]

If you learned that it was actually tearing our arm and it wasn't healthy, would you stop liking it?

[pastel osprey]

the first part I agree with
if you want something, you can pursue it
but what I'm putting forward is that man is not free to choose his wants
some wants are ingrained, instinctual, other wants are culturally informed, others might be entirely personal or circumstantial
but I'm not convinced any are chosen

[wanton lava]

Well. Second order desires - Frankfurt

Also, this implies that every thought you get you are doomed to follow. But you can override thoughts

Thoughts go to actions

[pastel osprey]

maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't, hard to say without it happening
but that wouldn't answer the question of whether I made a choice to stop liking it or continue liking it, or whether either outcome was the inevitable consequence of finding out

[wanton lava]

I have like 4 arguments for free will in my play above

[wanton lava]

Here

Control F

[pastel osprey]

aight

[wanton lava]

@pastel osprey ChatGPT summarized them here:

1. Theological Argument:
   "God is free, so anything he makes must be free."

Explanation: Since God is presumed to have free will, His creations (humans) must also have a capacity for freedom. Even if humans are born with constraints (biological, social, psychological), they have the potential to remove or overcome these constraints, which implies free will is attainable.

Purpose in the play: Supports the idea that freedom is something intrinsic but must be developed or discovered.

2. Illusion of Choice Argument:
   "Freedom is the ability to choose. You cannot simulate an illusion of choice."

Explanation: This argues that even if we live in a deterministic universe, the subjective experience of making a choice cannot be faked or simulated. If you feel like you're choosing, you are exercising free will in a meaningful way.

Philosophical implication: Leans on compatibilist thinking—subjective experience matters even if determinism is true.

3. Hierarchy of Desires Argument (Internal Conflict Model):
   "Even if you can’t change a want, since you have multiple wants for a given thing, and you can choose how much power to give a certain want, then you still have free choice."

Explanation: Even if you can’t control your initial impulses or desires, you can prioritize them. This control over which desires win out is an exercise of free will.

Philosophical basis: Similar to Harry Frankfurt’s “second-order desires” argument—freedom lies in aligning actions with higher-order preferences.

4. Practical Agency Argument:
   "Any action you do..." (implied continuation: is yours to own, regardless of determinism)

Explanation: While not fully expanded, the implication is that your actions stem from you, your mind, and your agency. Even if they are determined by prior causes, they are still your actions.

Function: Reinforces the earlier point that you are the one determining your life, so in a practical sense, you are free.

[pastel osprey]

I think the hierarchy of desires argument is the most similar to how things seem to work to me
except that I'm not convinced we are choosing how much power to give the want
It seems like we fall into a never ending loop of
"we choose to empower some desires over others"
"and this is due to a desire for one to win out over the other?"
"yes, we can choose which desire we would like to win"
"but how can we know that we have any control over which desire we desire to win?"
"well we can choose to..."
forever

the illusion of choice argument makes a pretty big unproven assertion at "the subjective experience of choice cannot be faked or simulated"
really? are you certain? how?

[wanton lava]

It posits that since God is free, everything He created is free, except for constraints, but we can break them, so we can be free

[wanton lava]

Well the conscious doesn't really physicality care at the start

Only the subconscious

Or id

Conscious chooses according to itself

[pastel osprey]

I don't think I'm understanding anymore

[wanton lava]

Ok. So the conscious mind is separate from the body

Dualism

It's a belief I take but isn't proven as of right now

It explains many things beautifully

[split jungle]

wow man this taught me a lot, but there are quite some things i dont understand, yet

but for now im taking a break from my mind because im tired

[wanton lava]

Ty

[split jungle]

i spent way too much time reading that

[wanton lava]

Thinking of publishing it

I want to refine it more tho

[split jungle]

you should, for those who might understand it would be really helpful

[wanton lava]

Are you depressed? If not, did it make you happier or sadder?

[split jungle]

Im not depressed. It made me feel.. dumb? Because i dont know so many things

[wanton lava]

It goes over the major ideas of many philosophers at once

so it may be desne

I write densely though

[split jungle]

yea i recognized some

[split jungle]

yea it was kinda hard for me because my english isnt that advanced, so i had to constantly look up the meaning of some words

[wanton lava]

I'm working on my vocabulary so that might be why

Also I have a few paragraphs that are dense because I didn't want it to be a very long read

[split jungle]

oh i respect that

[wanton lava]

@pastel osprey William James: A man walking down a road sees two churches on opposite sides of road. One is church of Determination, the other the Church of Free Will. He goes into the Church of Determination, and is asked why he wants to join? He answers, because I choose to, and is thrown out. He then goes into the Church of Free Will, and is asked why he wants to join? He answers, because I have to, and is thrown out.

[wanton lava]

Well, free will is impossible because of memories. Strict determinism is impossible because some internal things still exist. Some internal things exist, some external things exist, so neither is a rational conclusion

The conscious mind(internal) is a choice that comes from us, so strict determinism isn't possible either(different than casual determinism)

At the end of the day, it's a mix

[pastel osprey]

That's funny as hell

[fresh grail]

A rabbit, a priest, and a minister walk into a blood drive. The priest and minister are on file, but they ask the rabbit his blood type. He says “I’m probably a type O”

[wanton lava]

There are 3 positions in the free will debate:
Libertarianism: You have freedom, and the universe isn't determined
Compatibilism: The universe being determined or not doesn't matter to free will/conscious freedom is freedom
Strict Determinism: The universe being determined takes away free will

Most Philosophers choose Compatablism(~70%), forgot the survey name so trust me bro

[fresh grail]

What about cannibalism

[wanton lava]

...

[jade star]

Hold up how can the universe be predetermined and also have an arguement of free will

[wanton lava]

What does determined have to do with freedom?

Also, you're the thing determining it

[jade star]

Well you say that everything is predetermined

Meaning even your response to it

So the fact you know or dont is already something that is calculated

Thats at least my interpretation of it

[wanton lava]

Not necessarily

What do you define freedom as

[jade star]

Freedom is when i am able to act in a seemingly infinite amount of ways with zero restrictions

[wanton lava]

So, God isn't free?

[wanton lava]

Also, I can't argue against that

[jade star]

Well god should be able to act but he chooses not to according to religion at least

So it isnt that he isnt free but he either chooses not to use said freedom

Or there are laws that forbid him

[wanton lava]

God is pure act

No potential

Watch redeemed zoomer arguments for God cosmological argument

He can't lie

[jade star]

Nahh did you give me a source lol

[wanton lava]

Does that make Him unfree?

[wanton lava]

I don't want to explain it

[jade star]

If you cant lie that simply means you change how you speak the truth

[wanton lava]

He can't change

He can't do evil

So, is He free?

Also, no restrictions means no medium to act on

[jade star]

Well he still has ways to act it doesn't mean hes not free it just means that he has less options,the way i think of it is that if you remove half of infinity to infinity which would be all evil options in said arguement you would still have infinite options.

But if we are using a different idea for freedom which would be actually doing everything possible then its either you change it to what hes actually able to do or he isnt free

Now what hes able to do would be what he can do while having some sort of rule or disability forced on him

As for example someone with no legs cant run but that doesnt mean he isnt free if hes able to do everything else while removing the options that need functioning legs

[wanton lava]

Well

God has no potential

Only act

So is God free?

Yes

But how?

He is free from the external

[jade star]

Thats another type of freedom,as in hes free from the plight of mortality or hes free from any influence

[wanton lava]

Well, free from outside influence is different than infinite possibilities

So, you changed your definition of freedom

[jade star]

Well what i dont get is that im arguing that god still has said possibilities,the fact he cant lie or be evil doesnt change his ability to act in seemingly infinite ways

[jade star]

I already argued this above right here