PHILOSOPHY CHANNEL

[dusty oasis]

Yes

All of us deserve punishment because all of us are sinners beliving ing God and what he did for you saves you from punishment

[cloud flint]

One thing I like to think about

Does an infant or stillborn go to hell

They never had a chance to belive in god

[sullen comet]

nah, kids who don’t really have an inner thought or like “control” go to heaven

cause they never did anything bad if they can’t even really control their body

[cloud flint]

But all sinners go to hell and we’re born sinners

[sullen comet]

if yk what i mean

[cloud flint]

Moreover what about someone who hasn’t had the chance to understand the concept of religion

[sullen comet]

yes, however, it’s different for kids because they dont really have the capacity to understand anything

[cloud flint]

Like tarzan

Does he go to hell?

[sullen comet]

he’s not even real

[cloud flint]

It’s the concept

[sullen comet]

yeah, that’s why God tells us to preach so we can spread the good news

[cloud flint]

Ppl who have never been introduced to the idea

[sullen comet]

so we miss no one

[cloud flint]

So is it based on intent with knowlege or simply intent?

Like feral children have no concept of god

[sullen comet]

well.. you can’t really know God if you can’t even understand the concept of God

of religion

[cloud flint]

Because the stillborn is absolved because they don’t have the privilege of choice tet

[sullen comet]

pretty much

[sullen comet]

yes

pretty much

[cloud flint]

The point in kinda pushing is how much agency is involved in the choice

Even if you know god exists but you’re raped by a priest is it your fault for not believing?

[sullen comet]

yes because God shouldn’t be defined by the community or the people

God should be defined as he is

[cloud flint]

But then the church is an exercise in futulity

Because it’s god defined as community and people

Also then pagans

Or any religion

Can be god defined as he is

Wait no I guess the bible stops that

[sullen comet]

yeahhh

haha

[cloud flint]

Religion is weird because there’s a justification for anything really

For me there’s too many holes to accept

Maybe there’s a divine creator but I doubt the bible is his word

Too vauge contradicory and obtuse

[sullen comet]

well it seems contradictory but it’s not if you look at context of the two texts
it seems vague but there’s a lot written, you just have to remember it’s translated and was written a looooong time ago
idk wdym by obtuse

[cloud flint]

If the point of the divine word of god is to convert non believers why would you make it so difficult to understand?

14 year old me could parse problems with the text and it takes a whole lotta justification to make it make sense

One hole I can get, I can chalk it up to god’s plan or whatever

But when there’s dozens of holes?

I can’t patch that

[sullen comet]

because what God wants us to understand isn’t really easy to understand or comprehend in the first place

there’s also a lot of false preachers/teachers

so it makes a little more complicated

[celest bridge]

Quite a few of em.

[sullen comet]

indeed

[cloud flint]

It’s easy to justify hard to solve. Maybe I’ll be a believer if things change but right now I have no incentive to convert again.

[sullen comet]

understandable

[celest bridge]

Imo there aren't really any contradictions in the Bible (I haven't researched this specific subject enough so maybe I'm wrong) but the contradictions mainly are with the people who supposedly believe in the Bible.

[sullen comet]

i mean the Bible also uses a lot of metaphors and a lot of contradictions are either cause one of them is a metaphor and the other means literally

and also context cause some contradictions looks like it’s contradictory until you read the context and it’s talking about something else than what the other text is talking about

[celest bridge]

But when literally everyone you know who say they're following the Bible are doing horrible things it kinda makes you not wanna follow the Bible.

[cloud flint]

One thing is the rules set in the bible just aren’t applicable to the modern day. With so many false preachers and misrepresentations how is one to know when the “right” example manifests?

[sullen comet]

are they really devout Christians if they’re doing horrible things :/

[celest bridge]

No and yes. The Bible as far as I'm aware allows for quite a few horrible things to take place. Stoning people and whatnot.

[sullen comet]

HUH?

i’ve been reading the Bible for the past 2 yrs and i never heard such thing

[celest bridge]

You've never heard of stoning people? What?

[sullen comet]

it’s possible it was of the old covenant

[sullen comet]

no

well

i could also just have terrible memory

💀

(i do have terrible memory)

[ancient wharf]

im pretty sure thats only if someone commits a crime

[celest bridge]

Yes. Because if you've read the Bible at all, especially with Jesus specifically, you've heard of stoning people.

[sullen comet]

probably yes

[celest bridge]

And who gets to decide what's a crime in that case?

[sullen comet]

oh wait

[ancient wharf]

in Islam if a married man/woman has intimacy with another man/women he/she have to get stoned

[sullen comet]

that’s the old testament

the old covenant and the new covenant are different

[ancient wharf]

god

[celest bridge]

So were those people not devout Christians? Genuine question.

[sullen comet]

i mean the old testament is before Jesus came to earth to save us from our sins. the people were devout Christians because they had to do the works in order to be relieved of their sins unlike today, where you can just have faith in God and believe faithfully. you actually had to work for it in the old covenant

covenant = law

btw

[dusty oasis]

I must say i have a doubt i belive in predestination which is that God chosses who to lead out of alp ofnus infected with sin. Its like that because we rebelled against God (Adam and Eve eating fruit in the garden). But God basically just said dont eat from it you will die (basically get infected with sin) but he didint mention about hell and how he will choose who to savw because no one can save themselves if we rebell

[celest bridge]

Ngl I've always been uncomfortable with the garden of Eden. Why put the tree there? Why let the serpent in? If they were truly free of sin and haven't faced a single consequence how on earth were they supposed to know what would happen? How long could they have been there before they ate the fruit?

[ancient wharf]

Adam and Eve was tricked by the devil into eating the fruit

they were not rebelling

[dusty oasis]

Honestly yeah, devil did rebell against God but God should have had power to not let him in why if we are his favorite creation made in his image.

[celest bridge]

Is a similar thing with the first murder as well. He was a vegan typa person, he had no experience with death. He could've legitimately not understood what would happen when he wacked his brother with a rock.

[dusty oasis]

Yeah but i mean God told tp not do it and they did it so yeah they rebelled, were tricked into rebelling

[ancient wharf]

yea

[dusty oasis]

Fro this i mean u kinda always can kbow you are going twoards a bad oath if u feel like angry twoards someone, so idk abt this

[celest bridge]

Who was there to teach them not to? The equally as ignorant Adam and Eve?

[ancient wharf]

God obviously had the power. It was a test

[dusty oasis]

I mean existence would be better wirhout it imo

I havw a lot of doubts like this

[ancient wharf]

this world is a test. If the devil didnt exist then who would give us temptation to do evil all the time?

[dusty oasis]

Wait are you talking about those 2 brothers and how one killed the other? I dont really remember that story well imo

[celest bridge]

Yes.

[sullen comet]

well then it wouldn’t be free will

[dusty oasis]

Yeah i struggle to understand whs God let devil do stuff what makes it better why didint he just destroy him right away

[dusty oasis]

Ah

[celest bridge]

Here's another philosophical question, is all the suffering truly worth it for free will?

[sullen comet]

i mean we would be robots then

[celest bridge]

Cause I feel like I hear that all the time and it just feels like a lack luster argument.

[sullen comet]

the devil is the absence of God just how dark is the absence of light

[celest bridge]

And what would be wrong with that?

[sullen comet]

uhh no emotions lol

no train of thought*

[celest bridge]

I would be fine without emotions ngl, they don't have a good track record.

[dusty oasis]

We did have free wil to choose. And i kbow about argument that we would be bunch of robots that would just listen and do right thing because we wouldnt have free will. While that sounds robotif and dry it definetly sounds better than eternal suffering that u could experience

[sullen comet]

i mean there’s positive emotions and negative emotions
obviously we can’t ask why we’re humans so it’s not really something i can answer tbh

[celest bridge]

I would gladly give up my free will to if it meant I wouldn't go to hell.

[dusty oasis]

Same

[ancient wharf]

then life would be too easy. as i said this world is a test. after we die we will go to heaven/hell depending on the results. there wont be no devil in heaven

[celest bridge]

What's wrong with the world being easy?

[sullen comet]

well can’t say why God doesn’t

or does

[dusty oasis]

But think about if we never ate from fruit we would be perfectly free of sin, bad stuff

[ancient wharf]

if there was no devil everyone would end up in heaven

the point of the world is to find out the people that had proper belief in God despite the temptations and evils of the world

[dusty oasis]

It sounds logical that if there is no bad it wohld be very panful to live but if we are talking about state of no sin then that obivously has to be good and perfect state

[celest bridge]

Why though?

[ancient wharf]

because God wants to reward the faithful people with heaven and punish the bad people with hell

[celest bridge]

So he wants to inflict suffering for the temptation that he himself caused?

[patent veldt]

Also that women are meant to submit to men, wth

[dusty oasis]

Cant wait to be called sexist and what not but through whole history males were leaders and we see in what stupidity society has become now with secular culture

[celest bridge]

Are males not still leaders in secular culture?

[sullen comet]

^

[patent veldt]

That’s a terrible take - males are physiologically predisposed to being leaders in tribal times, as they are physically stronger. It’s easy for those things to persist over many ages. Secondly, the world is better now than it was 50, 100, or 1000 years ago, so your second point is mute.

[sullen comet]

i personally don’t want to lead a relationship 💀

[dusty oasis]

Well most in politics but now there are this weird mindsets where male is at home and female a business man im not saying a female should stay at home but fact that male stays is so weird and wrong.

[ancient wharf]

God allows the presence of temptation through Satan, this does not mean that God is punishing people for something He directly caused. Rather, He has given humans free will to choose between right and wrong, and the temptation is part of the test of life. Humans are judged based on their own choices, not because of the temptations they face.

[celest bridge]

Why though? Men can take care of kids and clean just as well as women and there are plenty of fields of work women are great at.

[dusty oasis]

Yes they should lead because they are stronger, and a lot of us feel miserable tho life has never been easier and we are in this society that promotes a ton of this sexual stuff and what not its awful

[patent veldt]

Physical strength doesn’t equate to ability to lead, terrible point

[dusty oasis]

But males are stronger and tougber they should do harder stuff and if u are better at doing this dangerous stuff u should be leader

[sullen comet]

men aren’t stronger, they’re just better at dealing with intense stress

[dusty oasis]

Since males do tougher stuff tjey will be of tougber mindset too atleast it should be like that so they should lead

[patent veldt]

Why is that at all obvious

I disagree

[dusty oasis]

Thats a litreally strenght, a mental one😂

[sullen comet]

true lol

[celest bridge]

There's plenty of hard work to be done at home too and just because you're staying home doesn't mean you aren't a leader.

[dusty oasis]

In these society where most of us males are weak morons its honestly not evem a suprise that so many people in secular areas disagree

[patent veldt]

Cringe response

Not addressing my point at all

[dusty oasis]

Not as much as beaing a firefighter or something thats a literal fact lol

[sullen comet]

i think y’all have a different definitions for leadership

[dusty oasis]

Sadly true

[dusty oasis]

Do u ask why i find my point obivous or?

[celest bridge]

My dad goes to work as a teacher. He ain't doing hard work like a firefighter.

[dusty oasis]

I gave an example

[patent veldt]

I ask you to provide sound reasoning that physical strength equates to mental strength

[dusty oasis]

Male was always a strpnger gender and was treated more harshly and it should stay like it

[celest bridge]

Yes, but I also gave a real world example of a not hard working job which kinda invalidates the idea that men are required to do hard working jobs.

[dusty oasis]

Males usally do harder physcixal stuff because they simply can and it can get tought and they can keep goibg more than woman usually so yeah

[dusty oasis]

They dont need to all of them but what 99% are man that do for a reason lol

Stronger individual should be a leader, dont ur instinct agree with somethibg like that?

[celest bridge]

But you do you realize that even if what you said is true that there are plenty of jobs that do not require hard labor that a woman can do instead of a man? Thus making it to where the man can stay at home raising the kids?

[sullen comet]

my dad doesn’t like to do physical work lol

nothing wrong with a man staying home and the woman working

[celest bridge]

Not really. Intelligence is more important for being a leader in this day and age. Sure before someone who was strong would be able to hunt and thus bring more food making them more valuable but now for food I would say intelligence is far more important.

We don't vote for bodybuilders for president do we?

[sullen comet]

PFT

imagine

[dusty oasis]

Dude who through history and now goes to wars man, and thats a tough place to be in, why they go there, because they are stronger meaning they can go longer they have more endurance so they wont give up as eawy as most females would

[celest bridge]

Imo we should just put all the candidates in a ring with a bear and whoever is the last man standing should be president (I want the bear to be president)

[sullen comet]

i mean, women got mental strength for sure. they probably have the same mental strength as men do. it’s just how men can handle intense stress better so it’s harder for a woman to go through intense stress but she is capable to do anything she puts her mind to

[dusty oasis]

Im not conparing bodybuilder to female but average male to avergae female. Man are also in wars, man were hunti g before killing huge aninals so it makes sense to say we are better at tactical thinking

[sullen comet]

LOL

that’ll be so funny

[dusty oasis]

Well sure because of physcicall attributes it is. And also males are usually more attracted to intense stuff like strenght training and that while woman like peacful stuff so its also simply our biology

[sullen comet]

no. men are just single taskers so it’s easier to accomplish at things. you notice the greatest chess player or the richest person is a man because he’s single minded. women are typically better at multitasking so they tend to do multiple things :p

[patent veldt]

You sure are good at oversimplifying incredible complex topics

[dusty oasis]

I think males are better at tactical thinking which is requierd because males go to war through whole history its in our blood

[sullen comet]

eh, preferences

[patent veldt]

How much biology have you studied to make that claim?

[celest bridge]

Even if everything you're saying is true you do realize that women can still work right? And if they make enough money it allows for the man to stay home, right?

[dusty oasis]

I like to keep stuff simple

[patent veldt]

The world ain’t simple so that falls apart

[ancient wharf]

just to clarify, all the things i said are from Islam since im a muslim so i dont know if it is relevant with other religions

[dusty oasis]

Sure yeah i agree woman are better at multitasking. But how often do u see a male doing intense training and how often woman.

[dusty oasis]

Yeah prefrences because of different attributes

[sullen comet]

mostly cause it’s not so hard for men as is it for women

[sullen comet]

indeed

[dusty oasis]

Behaviou of males through history shows everything. Now it got different because life is easier

[patent veldt]

Bruh, just because fewer women do resistance training doesn’t mean they are mentally weak

[patent veldt]

That’s not anything, that is 0 credibility

[sullen comet]

hmm muslims apply most of the old covenant (in addition to the new covenant) while Christians don’t apply the old covenant

[dusty oasis]

I never said woman cant work. Look im no good male but i would be vers very very dissapointed in myself if i would stay at home, i think its a shame

[ancient wharf]

by covenant you mean testament?

[sullen comet]

covenant = law

[dusty oasis]

It simply feels wrong and embarassing

[ancient wharf]

oh

[sullen comet]

yesyes

[celest bridge]

Why is it a shame?

[ancient wharf]

well we just follow the Quran and Hadith

[sullen comet]

yes, the quran is the first 5 books of the Bible if i recall correctly

idk about the hadith

[ancient wharf]

but yeah there are lots of similarities between Christianity and Islam

[sullen comet]

yes

[ancient wharf]

i have to look into that

[sullen comet]

alright

[sullen comet]

let me know what you find when you get to it

[ancient wharf]

sure

[dusty oasis]

Males are more attracted to chalanging themsleves intensley is what this shows. Who through history is daying in wars? Not that they wanted to but who should go other than them who are stronger and tougher. Therefore u wanna make thek not leaders?

[patent veldt]

You should learn how to write mathematical proofs, the logic is jumping all over the place there

[celest bridge]

Btw if you say it's a preference or biological imma be annoyed cause personal preference doesn't really matter here and it sure ain't a inherently biological thing all men have.

[sullen comet]

^

[dusty oasis]

I dont see a female training intensly to their limits. Boys are the one doing stupidity, doing hard challanges in schools, not girls

[patent veldt]

Yes, men fought in wars, but wars literally require physical strength so men are going to be selected

That has nothing to do with mental strength

[sullen comet]

LOL cause girls are smart enough to not be stupid. boys also typically have more energy so they have more chance of doing stupid stuff cause of them being active lol

[dusty oasis]

What is there left to do than try to simply navigate and come to conclusions, what should i do say for everything that im not sure or follow all that id considered right or simply explaining stuff to myself so i navigate in this place?

[ancient wharf]

that was torah which was revealed to musa or moses in english

[sullen comet]

girls are doing hard challenges in school tho

[patent veldt]

Try to reach real conclusions that are logically sound, even if they aren’t simple

[sullen comet]

not just guys

[celest bridge]

Also a lot of the differences are taught not necessarily biological.

[sullen comet]

OH
well that makes more sense

[patent veldt]

^^^

[sullen comet]

wdym by differences?

[celest bridge]

Between boys and girls, like what they prefer to do and whatnot.

[sullen comet]

ohhhh, that’s true
i mean energy wise, men are more energetic overall since they live on a 24 hr cycle like women live on a 28 days cycle

[patent veldt]

Huh

What

[sullen comet]

so men are more likely to be out and doing stuff while women still do but probably not as much :p

[celest bridge]

Especially in regards to color I would say. Pink is a manly color and it always will be.

[sullen comet]

the menstrual cycle

it’s 28 days

[patent veldt]

Okay, does that really mean women are less energetic in day to day life?

I just think those are unrelated

[dusty oasis]

Are u a male or female? What less tough female should be stressing on a job with her stupid boss for example being a jerk and its not shameful for men to avoid that. As i said if woman wnat to worl let it be jobs that woman can do but for men to avkid job is crazy. Males are ones that provide. Males would hunt and bring food it should be like that males should definetly bring income to family

[sullen comet]

lol pink and blue were set as girl and blue for gender reveals because of the greek gods or something like that

[sullen comet]

yes

it affects the mood and energy of the woman

[dusty oasis]

Where am i contradicting myself. Im talking to 2 of u at the samw time i cant really do my best here lol

[patent veldt]

No contradictions, you made 2 unrelated statements and then said therefore another statement

[patent veldt]

While you are on your period sure, but I’m skeptical that it reaches weeks past that

Maybe I’m wrong

[dusty oasis]

Since men are ones that would go through more pain for the most part they developed more mental strenght. What everyday in war fearing to not die in war and not come to ur family ever again doesent make u mentally strong??

[patent veldt]

Also, in that case, is there no difference between kids

[celest bridge]

I'm male, and I do not have a biological need to do that. Also staying at home and raising kids, working on the house, cleaning, and cooking is still providing.

[patent veldt]

Most men don’t do that. Your ancestors fighting wars doesn’t give you any right to claim that men are mentally stronger than women

[dusty oasis]

Yes and males have more of a need to prove themselves, they are much more competitive

[dusty oasis]

What are girls doing lol maybe there are wilder ones lol but thats rare

[patent veldt]

^

[dusty oasis]

Oh im logical to myself if u disagree cool

[sullen comet]

lol there’s 4 stages in a 28 days cycle: menstrual, follicular, ovulation, and luteal

menstrual is our weakest point, follicular is our strongest point

we get mood swings more often in the luteal and we get more freaky during ovulation

buh

[patent veldt]

Oki doki

[mystic shale]

To be or not to be

[sullen comet]

indeed

[celest bridge]

So true.

[sullen comet]

hmm well they’re doing AP classes

and stuff

idek

i’m homeschooled atm :p

[coarse glade]

so like buff after the bleeding stops?

[mystic shale]

Ive done so much gun stuff that AP means armor piercing to me

[sullen comet]

pretty much lol

[sullen comet]

advanced placement lol

[mystic shale]

Buff: Rivers Of Blood acquired

[sullen comet]

LOL

[coarse glade]

dang

[dusty oasis]

Brother people that live around me fought in a very dark war lol. Males are built for bad stuff to go through thek better than females whifh requiers more mental strenght. And its fact that we have more drive for challanging stuff

[mystic shale]

But to attribute to philosophy

In this day and age i feel that people have too big of a need to react to everything

[coarse glade]

no

[mystic shale]

Rather than let other people do their stuff and rather observe

[dusty oasis]

Yes it is providinf but in history male would go outside and provide from there thats my point. Ajd i do jot understand u at all

[mystic shale]

And the constant need to get somehow offended and then tell another person that they are wrong just to feel somehow a better person or something

[celest bridge]

I also feel like you can't really see the not vocal party and thus can't tell how many stay silent.

[dusty oasis]

Whats that

[mystic shale]

Yea, its more that we only see the barking dogs

[sullen comet]

advanced classes basically

[mystic shale]

But the truth in the society is very different

[celest bridge]

It appears we are at a stand still once again.

[mystic shale]

Because the people who live their life not arguing online live very differently and dont feel that they are in such a bad society as social media lets us understand

[celest bridge]

For me it's more about trying to understand the others perspective.

[coarse glade]

yeah

[dusty oasis]

Oh i was more thinking about physcical stuff thatvis aslo mentally challanging like pain tolerance, we do a wild stuff xd

[stone osprey]

real

[sullen comet]

ohhhh
i mean women do typically have a higher pain tolerance than men :p

[stone osprey]

I didn't know what AP meant until a couple months ago

[mystic shale]

I like to understand perspectives but often people choose to butt heads rather than have a real conversation

[coarse glade]

yeah i think that's a real shame

[stone osprey]

in the context of schooling

[mystic shale]

But most of the stuff going on i dont really understand but if its not harmful i co exist

[coarse glade]

with women i usually have very pleasant conversations

[dusty oasis]

Then why are there not male vs female combat sport matches😂

[mystic shale]

I welcome people of all kinds when they dont aim to shoot me down

[celest bridge]

I love hearing the tea.

[sullen comet]

.. cause women would be absolutely dominated LOL

[coarse glade]

because males have some physical advantages

[sullen comet]

😭

^

[mystic shale]

I might not understand them but i co exist if i can vibe with them most of the time

[dusty oasis]

There is instance when it happened dude that was tran broke females skull males are.more damage resistant

[mystic shale]

But some people seem stuck of disagreeing

And starting conflict

[celest bridge]

Smh I want that to happen to me instead.

[dusty oasis]

Such as pain/damage resistance

[coarse glade]

W

[sullen comet]

lol well you’re biologically stronger :p

[mystic shale]

Yea my body fat buff gives me - 10% physical damage

[coarse glade]

females have a higher pain tolerance

[mystic shale]

With +20 mental damage debuff

[mystic shale]

Hit them in the balls and ask then

[sullen comet]

yeah men’s bodies are more durable when it comes to defense i’d say

[mystic shale]

But u cant

See

[coarse glade]

some women have balls

[celest bridge]

Are we sure women are even real? I haven't seen one.

[mystic shale]

But yea, often just being heavier results in you not getting as much damage

[sullen comet]

huh? are they even a woman then?

[coarse glade]

you've never seen women in your family?

[sullen comet]

real

[coarse glade]

that's kinda sad ngl

[coarse glade]

trans women yes

[sullen comet]

ohh

[sullen comet]

i mean we’re referring to females when we say women

[dusty oasis]

How no way female would survive more equal punches as man would from another man

[dusty oasis]

Thats what im talking about

[sullen comet]

female sounds so bleh

[coarse glade]

pain tolerance is mental
strength is physical

[celest bridge]

I was a single child thrown into the sea and raised by the ocean wolves (cuttlefishes)

[sullen comet]

lol females are iron man

[coarse glade]

cute 🥰

[dusty oasis]

Its both, ans i think males are usually mentalls stronger because they are built that way because the do harder stuff usually and have more drive for them

[mystic shale]

How bout

Men with no pp

[coarse glade]

it's also dumb that female has male in it

i think

[sullen comet]

i mean technically female is a male

[celest bridge]

Well woman also has man in it.

[mystic shale]

Well thats propably because all old stuff propably used the male as the definition or point zero

[coarse glade]

i personally think they're capable of equal things but you're allowed to have your opinion ofcourse

[coarse glade]

exaaactly

[celest bridge]

As far as I'm aware it's actually the opposite.

[mystic shale]

Well im no expert

[sullen comet]

“Some Renaissance linguists believed the word woman to be derived from "womb man" (man meaning “human” or “person” in Old English). The word is actually derived from the Old English compound "wyf man", with "wyf" used in Old English for both married and unmarried women.”

LOL

[mystic shale]

I just feel that society revolved alot more around men back in the day

As womens positions were mostly weaker

[coarse glade]

i want a wife

[sullen comet]

yeah women used to be supressed

idk y

[celest bridge]

A lot of stuff still revolved around women though cause ya know, they give birth to people.

[sullen comet]

ooo i’m already a wife

[mystic shale]

Yes ofc

[coarse glade]

good for you :D

[mystic shale]

But just that society was more male positive

[dense bane]

males are so weak in these days

[sullen comet]

thank you :]

[mystic shale]

As in males were often more educated

Had better chances of going up in society

[dense bane]

we need to work more

[sullen comet]

physically or mentally?

[mystic shale]

You can work for me

[dense bane]

both, and they dont have skills

[dusty oasis]

Im gona write my point here again since i was going all over the place talking to 3 people at the same time at one point. Through history males go hunt, go in wars and that they do ugly stuff generally and therefore should be leaders. They have better tactical thinking because its in our blood. Have you ever seen a female army general? We arw stronger becazse we are built for tougher stuff its biology. Our mindset is different we are more wild and strive for challanges, i will admit strive for stupid stuff lol. I think im talking perfectly normal stuff both genders are needed ofc a nd both are better at certian stuff and cant function without each other.

[coarse glade]

i disagree

[mystic shale]

Handstand isnt the golden standard skill of society pend

[dense bane]

ok , i started to like working

[dusty oasis]

A male wnat to prove himself more, want to be brave more than woman frim my life experience

[sullen comet]

hmm depends honestly
i’ve seen weak men and strong men
but if we’re talking about the majority, there’s definitely more weak men than there are strong men, and it’s opposite for the ladies somehow

[coarse glade]

that is purely societal

[mystic shale]

But yea i think people need to have some more mechanical skills and so on

[dusty oasis]

So u are on side of completely changing purpose of male lol ignoring how it was in history

[dense bane]

i mean skills that can give u over average salary and good knowledge how to invest them

[celest bridge]

None of that excludes a man being a stay at home dad though.

[coarse glade]

i'm on the side of the right equality for everyone

[sullen comet]

china has a female army tho

[mystic shale]

I would say people need more basic survival skills and stuff of every day life too

Like changing a light bum

Bulb

Making a fire

Living without electricity

[dense bane]

women better , i will try to get over average

[mystic shale]

Most people are starting to lack these basic skills

[sullen comet]

you should

it’s hard to find traditional men nowadays

[dense bane]

i do , but sometimes i cheat with some benzine 😅

[mystic shale]

People dont even prepare for any sort of situations. Like if you are out of water or cant go to the store

[coarse glade]

yeah i saw that

[mystic shale]

Most people dont survive that

[dusty oasis]

Yes our mindest depends on our place u live in. I live in balkans so i have much diffwrent mindste than all of u here. Im just having values somewhat same as it was before because its much more better to me than what types of males we have now. Ajd its not like im some alpha male nowehre near that in fact prob more screwed than all of u but i strive for beaing better thid way that is right to me

[coarse glade]

alright, that helps me understand you better,
you be you

[dense bane]

i just learned to swim few months ago , but i dont like to water much so

[dusty oasis]

Im talking about general, ans that army is definetls not as effective as male.

[mystic shale]

I think there are alot but most just cant say much in this society of today without someone being offended for no reason

[celest bridge]

Well just because it's right to you doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

[coarse glade]

we can agree to disagree

[dense bane]

im feel bad bc of that :/

[dusty oasis]

Ok i wanted to express myself better

[dense bane]

bro who dont know that ?

[mystic shale]

Well some people dont know how to change a tire either

[celest bridge]

@dusty oasis And it certainly doesn't mean that every man has a biological need for that.

[mystic shale]

Etc

[sullen comet]

buh

[mystic shale]

These basic skills are left to "professionals" these days

[dense bane]

if u will say to make an electical instalation then sure idk , and i will study from internet for weeks before to start

[mystic shale]

Im not saying you have to know everything

But you should now some basics of things you use in daily life

Like lights, water, your transportation vehicle etc

[dense bane]

yes i agree

[dusty oasis]

I forgot abt that imo. Dude u say u dont feel shamw abt rhat i simoly do because it was never like that. When i look at strong men in histors i get inspired those who would go out of their homes. Females mostly take care of kids and shouls be like that women are better at that, at giving love to a child. Thats how it always was even in our eaely stages and what are we really doing is swapping roles messing up how stuff should be done.

[mystic shale]

And if you cant get water or food or electricity or heating for 3 or more days people should be prepared @dense bane

[dense bane]

eh , i prefer to use train and metro over to drive (i do very rare so im not a decent driver)

[mystic shale]

But in the age of 24/7 stores people go to the store for a few items every day

[mystic shale]

Yea but even repairing your bicycle if you use one should be something you can do

[dense bane]

bro is easy to find water

[mystic shale]

But water that wont give you the shits

[dense bane]

for food i will go to work :))

[mystic shale]

You need to know how to make clean water

Flowing water is a bit safer ofc

[dense bane]

like i need to buy some things , i cant grow all

[mystic shale]

But if you live in a big city you can be far from drinkable water

[dusty oasis]

Yeah i cant deny that. Most do tho, and in my opinon all should

[dense bane]

bro im not in forest , probably u need just some sand

[dusty oasis]

Yeah ofc, it all really depends on what u were told and learned to think, im just on side society has been thrkugh history until recently when we aslo got a bucnh of sick stuff

[dense bane]

i drink from parks

:))

when i run

[mystic shale]

But most people lack these skills to cuz they are used to getting water from the tap

I even saw some people bamboozled that you can eat a fruit straight off a tree

Like if this sort of basic knowledge is gone

We are ruined as a society

[dense bane]

im not even close to that situation , ok compared with my dad idk many things (like elwctrical instalations and water instalation)

also few more things

[celest bridge]

Btw am leaving this conversation. I feel like there may have been a couple good points but we are at a standstill and I have to get on with my day.

[dense bane]

im sure we can survive

but i want to be better than just that

why men so weak these days ?

why im so weak

ik

bc im lazy

[dusty oasis]

Im on side of both genders doing what they are special at. Males to lead because they are tactical. And females to take care of kids because they are better at it. So teaditional view.

[dense bane]

yes , that makes concurence

motivation for me

bc im lazy

[sullen comet]

long conversation today lol

[dense bane]

i didnt read

[dusty oasis]

And bible saying women should submit to men simply says that woemb should be helper to men that shoild be leaders

[coarse glade]

are you a christian

[dusty oasis]

Since i think males are more tactical they should make decisions and women should trust them but ofc im not sayint that they should shut up and accept everything without giving any tought its not like us males just spit the truth and if male is requiering something unreasonable ofc dont submit

[dusty oasis]

Yes, not a good one

[coarse glade]

ok

[celest bridge]

As far as I'm aware the line in the Bible with Eve that says she was made as a helper was heavily altered to be like that when it was being translated. Pretty sure the original says that God took literally half of Adam and not just a rib as well to make Eve.

[dense bane]

i prefer women to be free and equal in rights

[dusty oasis]

Really? I think its just takinf a rib, but what does that even have to do with this or anything contorversial lol

[dense bane]

idk that , i need to search if is true

[celest bridge]

You were saying that the Bible said that women are supposed to be helpers, it has to do with this conversation cause translation stuff means that that isn't really true.

[dusty oasis]

If she is unhally bwcause her husband is requiering worng stuff she should definetly not submit. Its that if a male is normal good person that she should comfratavly put her trust in him

[dense bane]

study bit and see

not all what ppl say is true

i dk

[celest bridge]

Ye, definitely fact check me. I'm very stupid and very likely to be wrong.

[dusty oasis]

How? God said that its not good for male to be alone so he made a helper to Adam

[dense bane]

ok then

[celest bridge]

And as far as I'm aware the original translation has different wording and how it says it it talks about them being more like equals.

[dusty oasis]

Im bad ar fully expressibg myself alos i was talkig to 3 people at the same times so i get that this was so controversial, but i truly dont think im controversial or anything or have harmful mindset or anything

[dusty oasis]

What in like hebrew?

[dense bane]

bc are equals

[celest bridge]

Yes.

I think.

[dusty oasis]

Oh, i mean look im no person to go and check translations i really just have to trust what i have. Im sure there would be a lot of controvery and reactions of ppl if it was dedinetly proven it was changed. I dont see why would thaz be the case since that mindset was not controversial at all back then. However exploring if translations changed actual text and that is interesting i might explore that there is a lot of stuff to explore. Its quite overwhelming lol

Anyways i dont have nothing to say anymore

[celest bridge]

Definitely need to look at a buncha different translations of the Bible. How it words things is very important. At least in the circles I'm in it's very known that the different translations have different meanings otherwise you wouldn't have all the different versions of Christianity that we have today.

[dusty oasis]

Yeah thats true

[fresh grail]

וַיִּבְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ אֶת־הָֽאָדָם֙ בְּצַלְמו בְּצֶ֥לֶם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בָּרָ֣א אֹת֑וֹ זָכָ֥ר ונקבָה בָּרָ֥א אֹתָֽם׃
And God created man in his image, in the image of God he created him, male and female He created them

This is the word for word translation

[sullen comet]

equal in value. different in roles

[sullen comet]

there’s word for word translations and thought for thought translations. you just search that up and you can find graphs of word for word and thought for thought translations

[dusty oasis]

fellow believers in God what are your biggest reasons you belive he exists and for atheists what are biggest reasons you don't belive

[dusty oasis]

exactly

[celest bridge]

The sheer amount of hate I see from Christians I know irl puts me off. That and the fact that the supposed joy I was constantly told about that I could find in God never showed up.

[stone osprey]

real

[sullen comet]

i don’t blame you. there’s a lot of Christians who are really hateful and don’t even do the 2nd commandment which is weird (love your neighbor like yourself). i’ve met a lot of Christians like that and it’s really disappointing to see how they express their so-called “love”

the second statement you said, i can definitely relate to. i still believe in God and believe the things he does for people but he haven’t really done much for me (mentally) so

[sullen comet]

i believe in God because it’s literally impossible for him to not exist. a creation needs a Creator. God is the beginning and the end so he simply already existed because he came along with the “beginning”. it’s inevitable - it would be impossible for me to not believe God to exist when he created nature and miracles and love

badum

[cloud flint]

you ever think that's just your human way of thinking

we are evolved to think A -> B

every action action precedes a reaction

we could just be insignificant

like it makes sense that we would just start existing due to the laws of the universe

atoms, molecules, ect

a self replicating molecule has a higher chance of existing than one that doesn't

so after a few billion years

you end up with beings which are good at replicating

[cloud flint]

No offence Kat but I think some of your thinking is limited by ignorance

if you took some time and learned the how and why of science I think you'd have more faith in the idea of evolution ect

the scientific process is the closest thing to infallibal we can get

science has dropped mortality rates from ~50% to 4.3%

Science provides us with models and ideas that have allowed us to fly, get to the moon, eradicate smallpox, feed millions, and create or destroy

the one thing it asks for us to do is question everything, and admit when we're wrong

[sullen comet]

💀

bruh

you say no offense and say that 😭

[cloud flint]

Was I too blunt?

[sullen comet]

yes

[cloud flint]

I meant it constructively

[sullen comet]

😭

[cloud flint]

Sorry

[sullen comet]

it’s okay

ik you don’t mean it rudely

[cloud flint]

Still I should be more aware

[ancient wharf]

i dont think so

[stone osprey]

Paenarthrobacter ureafaciens KI72 proves that evolution is real, the bacterial strand didn't even exist before nylon was invented in 1935

well after a god would've created the Earth

and we tracked its development

[sullen comet]

evolution is real duh

but human evolution is a different topic

buh

anyway i should be sleeping, not typing 💀

goodnight

[stone osprey]

humans have evolved in small ways over time

[ancient wharf]

so ur telling me we went from a clumped mass to all the things we have today

[stone osprey]

species evolution slows when it's not necessary to evolve

humans currently don't have anything we need to evolve for in any dramatic fashion, so any evolutionary process happening to our species would be going quite slowly

[cloud flint]

Ok this is gonna sound more mean but I don’t mean it that way, it’s just typical of humans and awareness helps us combat it. It’s easy to feel entitled to understanding of the universe, and when a topic or idea is too complex it can’t be true but we need to understand that not everything we feel is reality

[stone osprey]

what if the universe doesn't have to have a logical explanation

or what if that explanation for its existence is perfectly logical, but we simply cannot comprehend it

[ancient wharf]

these are too complex for me aaaaah

[cloud flint]

Even then we’re evolving slow but noticeable changes probably. Bill nye talked about how we’re indirectly selecting for women who can reproduce at an older age because women are doing careers and settling down later

[cloud flint]

You can googlr

Kertgerzaught

I can’t spell that shit

CGP grey

Varatasium

[stone osprey]

for example, us humans evolved to live in a 3-dimensional world. Along with the vast majority of other living organisms that we're aware of. We cannot comprehend a higher dimension because our brains didn't evolve to understand it or live in it

[stone osprey]

Kurzgesagt I think

[ancient wharf]

oh the yt channel

[stone osprey]

yes

he is very good

[cloud flint]

Yeah

Kyle hill

[stone osprey]

Veritasium

[cloud flint]

[stone osprey]

lol

[cloud flint]

Science buddy

[stone osprey]

never thought about that, but it makes perfect sense

[stone osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/bill-nye-billnye-sciencerules-science-gif-5866727

[cloud flint]

Also I feel like ppl are getting taller and more mature

[stone osprey]

yes

[cloud flint]

But that might just be me

[stone osprey]

people have been getting taller faster

more mature is subjective

so we can't really measure that with any set metric

[cloud flint]

Well more self aware

[stone osprey]

you can kind of just feel when someone is mature

[cloud flint]

Yeah

[stone osprey]

there's no algorithm for it

[cloud flint]

Well it depends on a ton of things

A good question is acting mature = being mature?

[ancient wharf]

yall know people were taller before

[stone osprey]

does acting smart make you smart?

acting a certain way doesn't make you that thing

[ancient wharf]

and the more we evolve the more shorter we get

[cloud flint]

I’d argue that there is some traits

Humility, self awareness

[stone osprey]

huh??

before when exactly

[ancient wharf]

im talking about Adam

[cloud flint]

[stone osprey]

buh

I was gonna say, according to available research, the average human height during the time of "cavemen" (early Homo sapiens) was significantly shorter than today, with estimates placing the average male height at around 5 feet (152cm). So I was hella confused when you said we were taller before.

Cause at no point in human evolution have we gotten shorter

[cloud flint]

Holy shit adam was 27 mtrs tall

[stone osprey]

I'd love to see him play basketball xd

[cloud flint]

Lol

[cloud flint]

You can’t prove adam existed

[stone osprey]

he can dunk from the height of his kneecaps fr

[ancient wharf]

religion:

[cloud flint]

https://tenor.com/view/darksouls-gif-20991094

[stone osprey]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/841870595461087233/1179248576862363709/caption.gif?ex=657917d2&is=6566a2d2&hm=4f63000b6be68dfcdd662f1887ba06cbb3b4bef0c3f3ed7e67e8bd05a2907333&

[cloud flint]

Religion is not proof it’s a fabricated history

[stone osprey]

religion didn't exist before humans, so if we invented it then like

[cloud flint]

It’s human interpretation of gods word if anything

[stone osprey]

wha

[cloud flint]

Thats a big if too

[stone osprey]

for all we know the whole thing could've started with some guy who ate some funky mushrooms and was just writing a cool story

[ancient wharf]

damn

nathan are u an atheist?

[stone osprey]

I'm not gonna lie the stories in the bible are cool as hell sometimes

[cloud flint]

No I believe if a creator exists we’re outside of it’s scope of understanding

[stone osprey]

like a guy just splitting a whole sea in half so a bunch of people can get across it quickly

[cloud flint]

Real shit

[stone osprey]

I'm glad in a way that religion existed, because it gave humans before us a way to explain the world around them. It gave them reassurance and explained a lot of things that we couldn't find out ourselves at the time.

[cloud flint]

If god exists it’s not our interpretation of god

It’s arrogant to think god would conform the the ideals and morals we prescribe to it

God would probably be amoral

[stone osprey]

It's weird in my mind to call ancient Greek, Nordic, Roman, and many others "mythology" when it's no different from Christianity

cause if you call Christianity mythology someone is gonna shoot you probably

[cloud flint]

Real

[stone osprey]

it's just declaring their whole religion is fake

and yours is the real one

when neither side can prove any of it

[cloud flint]

Thats why I’m wavering towards anti-theist

[stone osprey]

it's like two kids arguing about whose super hero won when playing a pretend game

[cloud flint]

In terms of traditional constructions of religion

[cloud flint]

Exactly

And ppl die bc of it

[stone osprey]

yeah that is kinda

[cloud flint]

Religion is another excuse for humans to fight each other instead of working for mutual benefit

[stone osprey]

because of religion related war humanity lost an estimated maximum of 900 years of technological development

[cloud flint]

The dark ages

[stone osprey]

yeah 😔

I'm not trying to shit on religion cause people can think whatever they want

but everything about it goes against all logic in my mind

[cloud flint]

The thing is religion has to be really good at makkng people belive

Otherwise it wouldn’t exist

[stone osprey]

I don't even think everything started in just one really small infinitely dense space, cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either

[cloud flint]

It’s quite literally thought evolution

[stone osprey]

I'm not sure how it started or why we're here

I choose to believe that the explanation for our existence is simply one we cannot comprehend

[cloud flint]

The beginning and the end are concepts humans will always struggle to comprehend

[stone osprey]

it's too far fetched for any mind or computer to understand or calculate

[cloud flint]

It’s against our nature

[stone osprey]

far fetched might not be the right term

but something like that

[stone osprey]

yes

because we can't accept that there can be a beginning or an end to everything

we love to imagine that something had to come before

and something must always come after

[cloud flint]

We’re not built to see the world as it is we’re built to see it in the way that will make us survive the longest

[stone osprey]

it hurts my brain to imagine time before things existed, hell even a time before time existed

like

would it even be black?

blackness is just the absence of light

but light didn't exist yet

so like

what would it have been like

what is nothing??

we literally cannot comprehend that

[cloud flint]

😵‍💫

[stone osprey]

so I choose to believe that there is no explanation

we're here because of something we cannot understand

[cloud flint]

I choose to belive there is no explanation I will understand

[stone osprey]

a god we can understand, an infinitely dense and small area we can understand

[cloud flint]

Same

[stone osprey]

we can describe those ideas with words

and sort of imagine them

[cloud flint]

Funny idea but the anti life equation in DC

[stone osprey]

what's that?

[cloud flint]

Uhh

Like

Zombie virus

It’s based on the idea that seeing a pattern activeates it

Like

Just in general the idea of a concept that if you understand it will push you to suicide

Some things are better left unexplored

Idk it’s some DC nerd stuff you can look into it

[stone osprey]

sounds interesting

[cloud flint]

Religion it’s just human nature really

[stone osprey]

honestly every time that my mind gets close to imagining what true nothingness would be like, my entire head feels a sharp widespread pain then goes numb and I completely lose it

every single time it happens

[cloud flint]

Humans want answers and want to fight

Religion does both

[stone osprey]

it's like my brain literally crashes

[stone osprey]

yup :p

[cloud flint]

Try alt-f4

[stone osprey]

lol

[cloud flint]

But yeah back to what haseeb said I don’t belive that our ideas on religion and god are correct if a god exists

[ancient wharf]

i do

[cloud flint]

Why would god reflect our morality or any ideas

[ancient wharf]

because the Quran contains miracles, prophecies, and scientific knowledge the no individual could possess 1400 years ago

[cloud flint]

I haven’t read the quran so I wouldn’t know

[stone osprey]

According to current knowledge, the earliest known star observation site is considered to be the stone circle at Nabta Playa in Egypt, dating back around 6,500 - 6,000 years ago, making it the oldest astronomical observatory in the world. There are also many others all around the world. We had the constellations and were tracking other astronomical objects and features before most cultures existed.

it's not too unbelievable to think that people 1400 years ago knew a LOT more than we thought they did

[cloud flint]

Just philosophically how can god exist and conform to our ideas of morality and thinking patterns

[stone osprey]

lots of people think about humans 3000 years ago and imagine them using stone tools

bronze was made over 5000 years ago

we could already melt, refine, and shape metals back then

hell, we figured out how to make alcohol before we invented wheels

our progression makes no damn sense

but that's how it happened

[cloud flint]

Yeah

Like it isn’t hard to find contradictions and false claims in religious texts

They’re products of humanity just like us

God to me is the perfect omnipotent being

Perfect would mean removed from our way of thinkjng and ideals

Or they’re not perfect and subject to all the flaws we are

Nothing should be worshipped as dogma

[ancient wharf]

wait ill give yall a list im a bit busy rn

[cloud flint]

Lol

You see how religious establishments use these as tactics to maintain control? They bog you down with specifics which are easily disproven but take time to do so

Even if we start conceptually it doesn’t track

Religion at the heart of it makes us feel good

It creates a sense of belonging and control in life

It’s so easy to accept because it’s already intuitive

That doesn’t mean it’s right

We are flawed beings that see things with bias

Religion is an exercise in arrogance because it centers around the idea that something created US. At the center of religion is always humanity

It’s never about why god exists or what purpose it serves but what our purpose is and how do we relate to god

[stone osprey]

it's all good, I'm not trying to shit on what you believe in either btw. I think it's great you have enough trust and faith in something to take it as your truth

[cloud flint]

If it makes you feel good I guess do as you wish

This is a good video that kind of relates

https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc?si=5Szmr1vSeWxFLdIK

After watching consider religion as a “thought germ”

Over millions of years it’s evolved to be the best possible way to get people to fight and think about it

I go brd no gn

[ancient wharf]

yes its all fine dw

[dense bane]

then laws of universe will be my god :))

[dense bane]

i cant tell if is real

[dense bane]

what animals evolve fast ?

[dense bane]

sure we need to study it

[stone osprey]

smaller organisms

such as bacteria

new strands of the flu and coronavirus for example come up all the time

sometimes multiple times a year

because of how quickly such a small organism can change

[dense bane]

thats right

still i dont beleive in darwinism

sure exist evolution

but not in that way

[dense bane]

no is not arrogance

i just admit that i cannot be saved through my own strength

so nothing to be proud by myself

[ancient wharf]

we Muslims dont follow any "tactics" of our establishments.

also wdym by tactics of religious establishments

there is no such thing like that in Islam

[dense bane]

tactics like music , thats right

i dont realy enjoy religious music

[ancient wharf]

music is totally forbidden in Islam

[dense bane]

intersting

i think music is fine

as time is not too much

[ancient wharf]

some specific music frequencies mess with our brains

[dense bane]

yep

i agree

[ancient wharf]

also kind of leads to addiction, but this topic is not talked about much. Because you will see people saying "i cannot live without music"

for example if you listen to music with depressing lyrics then you will feel more depressing

[dense bane]

yes can be an adddiction

like u cant work well without music

[dense bane]

can happen , i like sad ones with hope

[dense bane]

lyrics are important for me

[dusty oasis]

Yeqh its dissapointing, hopefully God leads you one day

I also currently feel like he is distant from me but that is my fault so yeh

[dense bane]

sad many christians dont understand love and become hypocrites (can happen to me too)

[dusty oasis]

That is one of the strongest arguements but i never really explored it much. I heard arguement from alex o connor if u know him that we really just create stuff from materials that were always on earth so ig u could say that this all got created from stuff, materials, molecules whatever it is idk much abt science from stuff that was always there. So we really just dont create something we just make different shapes of it. We take metal and make it into a car for example. We just discover stuff and reshape them. Whs do we then belive everything needs a creator if we just simply reshape stuff, not create something unique. But then again idea of everything accidentally becoming is ridicilous to me i need to explore this more. On earth we see that we dint create stuff but reshape, why does it make sense so much that there even is creator if we really havent seen one. But then again who gave all of this, it simply randomly apperaed

[dense bane]

random laws ? no way

[celest bridge]

Well I feel like that argument is a little lack luster. Because you're saying that for us to exist someone would have to have created us but if that was true then wouldn't something have to have also created God? Why can the world not exist without a true beginning but God can?

[dusty oasis]

I mean u cant just say that there is no evidence, there is historical evidence (bible)

[dense bane]

bc is over laws of universe

[ancient wharf]

and the Quran

[dusty oasis]

Yeh forgot abt that lol

[dense bane]

u can belive even without evidence but u cant force others to belive without 100% evidence

(i dont say u forced someone to belive)

[dusty oasis]

I mean since we like create stuff, tho we dont we really just reshape. There has to be also a creator a supreme one that started eversthing, whk is not limited by weaknesses like time and that so he was there frkm the start and always will be. No one is better thsn him so he cant have a creator

He is that grand creator

[dusty oasis]

Thats true

[celest bridge]

But that doesn't explain how he exists in the first place. How did he come into being? And if he simply always existed then what's to say the world couldn't have also just always have existed too?

[dusty oasis]

Wdym, if u mean how its weird thaz all thos molecules whatever merged together and created all of this randomly then yeah. Even tho we dont create bht reshale stuff its still weird to just think it all got randomls here it dkesent make sense to me

[dense bane]

how exist laws of universe ?

[dusty oasis]

World cant because we are his creation we are limited we have weaknesses while he does not. He is creator of everything time and all that so he is not affected by it. He is complex perfevt beinf much more comolex than us so we cant fully understand it because on earth its different

[dusty oasis]

Btw for this all of that wqs always there that creates everything than its tehnically our god, but then our god would be simply some molecules that got destroyed from massive explosion in that process lol. And they are not complex molecules cant think right, atleast i think so i mean, they all just randomly kerged together. While idea of God show a mind that created everything

[celest bridge]

I feel like that doesn't answer my questions.

[dense bane]

he said he cant bc is impossible

God know

something like that

[dusty oasis]

How?

Im saying that it makes sense for creator of everything, so big stuff to be complex being thatvis not limited like us

I cant understand truly how someone has no beginning, what is infinite but it makes sense

Because if he woild have he would need to be created right?

[celest bridge]

If he doesn't have to have a beginning than why does the world inherently have to have a beginning?

[dusty oasis]

Because he decided so, his rules

Btw if there is no end to something u cant really start new stuff, earth would be much different and because he has no end he is always like he is so his nature is always the same

[dense bane]

same in the case of science so

we dont know

https://tenor.com/view/cat-what-que-recalculando-loading-gif-19097337

like that

[celest bridge]

Yeah, we don't actually know for sure in either case what the "beginning" looked like. I'm just saying that imo it isn't a good argument for saying that a god must be involved.

[dense bane]

isnt a good argument

sure

i still belive in God bc some things cant be created without laws

[celest bridge]

Cause if we're saying that something cannot come out of nothing and therefore that means a creator exists then that would mean that that creator would have also have come from something and so forth which I feel doesn't really work because that would mean that God isn't all powerful because there would have to be something above him to create him.

And if we're saying that he simply has always existed then that argument can also apply to the world itself as the world could have just always have existed without a creator.

[dense bane]

yes , but same for laws of universe (these sure exist:))

[dense bane]

yes , u have 2 options with same problem

[dusty oasis]

But God is infinited alwqys been there there was nothing before him, and everythinf that got created was after him

[dusty oasis]

If u fully accept theors that God is infinite than there is no problem with that theory

[celest bridge]

So why couldn't we also argue that the world is infinite without a creator?

[dusty oasis]

Do u mean specifically earth?

[celest bridge]

If something can exist without a creator then that means that the world could exist without a creator.

[celest bridge]

Our universe, the earth, the stars, and whatnot.

[dusty oasis]

Then that would bean that it got randomly here, who reshaled metal into a car? It got randomly there? No humans, a mind created it. So it makes sense that a mind something that is aware created stuff

[dusty oasis]

If eversthing needs a creator than there is no grand creator which would mean this chain got randomly started..

Brb

[celest bridge]

I mean kinda.

I dunno how it started but saying that God is self evident in that fashion doesn't really explain it any better.

Btw I'm not trying to argue against god here I'm just saying that this specific argument is not infallible because it relies on concepts that are literally unknowable.

[dense bane]

for me now these things dont matter much , bc is to only solution i found for my problem

[dense bane]

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

^thats for me

[dense bane]

yes

i can agree

some things we need to believe

[dusty oasis]

Alr, i just wanna explore all of this ajd come to my conclusions

[dense bane]

do it

[dusty oasis]

But it shows that we dont know so much, and it all point twoards submitting to grand supreme creator, God.

[dusty oasis]

Will

[dusty oasis]

Because we can litreally logically point twoards him

Atleast thats my opinion

[celest bridge]

I mean maybe but that isn't really what this discussion was about.

[celest bridge]

Maybe but not via this specific argument.

[dusty oasis]

Im trying to point twoards that we are talking abt what was the cause of universe and to me it is fascinating that we can logically provebit yet we know so little

[dusty oasis]

Btw did u hear abt math arguement for God?

And i belive we can since we are basically discussing idwa of gran creator

[celest bridge]

I've heard about it but I've never heard the actual argument.

[celest bridge]

Mainly have just heard it in passing.

[dusty oasis]

Ah i recommend exploring it. I dont really remember it well so im a bjt scared to mess it up but basically since math is infinite amd it describes thid worl and we didint invent it but discovered it it point that since itnis infinite its stored in infinite mind God. I hope i told it right lol

[dusty oasis]

Ah

Anyways i gtg go now

[celest bridge]

I also have to go. Is time for sleep.

[dense bane]

GN

[dense bane]

bye

[ancient wharf]

i have spent quite some time making this. Please read it in your free time @cloud flint @stone osprey

[cloud flint]

I’ve read through most of these but most of them are extremely vague and the other half are obvious

Water being a cornerstone of biology is obvious you can cut open any living thing and find watee

The heavens being gaseous is so vague and unless you have a very specific understanding could be anything

[ancient wharf]

u gotta look at it with the perspective of 1400 yrs ago

its pretty obvious now

[cloud flint]

The idea of sperm and the egg is nothing new

Hell, look at roman philosopher Nostradamus

He’s said to predicted most of the worlds major events

[ancient wharf]

it was nothing new in the 7th century?

[cloud flint]

All he said was stuff like “there will be war” and “a plague is coming”

[cloud flint]

The concept of seed in men and egg in women is not new

Even in historical times

17th century philosophers had specific details on the anatomy of the human sperm and egg so it isn’t hard to belive that before that humans knew a ton already

[ancient wharf]

yeah thats 10 centuries after the Quran

thats my point right there

[cloud flint]

You can infer a lot from “seed go in, child come out” and “no seed go in no child come out”

[ancient wharf]

same with the big bang theory

[cloud flint]

Oh come on they say the heaven and earth was “opened up” by god how are you supposed to interpret that

[ancient wharf]

people in the 7th century definitely did not even imagine that

[cloud flint]

If it said “cosmic background radiation tells us the universe is constantly expanding” then I would agree

[cloud flint]

People have been shagging since the beginning of time

Is it hard to belive they would speculate on how it works?

[ancient wharf]

no offence but ur acting like im talking about like 100 or 200 years ago

[dense bane]

what about here ?

[cloud flint]

Also statistically when you have a big enough text your bound to say some stuff which is true, and some stuff which is wrong. Unless your claiming that the Quran hasn’t changed since it’s conception, you can see how correct interpretations would be maintained while falsified statements would be omitted

[dense bane]

i dont even understand whats the question ?

[ancient wharf]

modern biology and genetics was not a thing during the 7th century

[ancient wharf]

yeah it has not changed a single letter

not a single letter at all

[dense bane]

intersting

[cloud flint]

Idk man they didn’t have science back then but they could still observe the world.

Like

[ancient wharf]

as a matter of fact, million of people have memorized it throughout their lives

the entire Quran

[dense bane]

maybe not average

[cloud flint]

Half of these are observations on the human condition

I can know these with no inference

[ancient wharf]

no technology wasnt so good at that time

[cloud flint]

Life needs water

[dense bane]

sure

[cloud flint]

You can tell, if you ejactulate inside a female you can concieve a child, and if you don’t you don’t get a child

[ancient wharf]

look, they way you are thinking now, you cannot compare it with a thought of a person from the 7th century

[dense bane]

lol

[cloud flint]

Off of that you can get the idea of “seed” and “egg”

[ancient wharf]

yeah everybody knows that but they didnt know about sperm cells and the egg

[dense bane]

first is more funny

[cloud flint]

They never specifically state sperm and egg. It’s purposely vague and left up to interpretation

[dense bane]

not some kids

[ancient wharf]

how do you know that do you understand Arabic????

[cloud flint]

No but they don’t know anythingn they shouldn’t be able to know

Your asusming everyone back them was stupidly ignorant

Humans are really fucking smart dude, and we can infer a ton from our environment without understanding

[dense bane]

nah , they was like us

[cloud flint]

Unless they get into the four stages of reproduction and interphase

“We sent down iron” doesn’t become “the earth is made of iron” unless you know astrophysics and geology

[dense bane]

^ i like that more

:))

[ancient wharf]

who said the earth is made of iron

iron is not a material from earth do you researches

[dense bane]

iron cross

[ancient wharf]

according to science iron came from stars

[cloud flint]

With that logic all materials other than hydrogen and whatever are from supernovae

[ancient wharf]

how?

[cloud flint]

Everything above iron should also have been sent down

[dense bane]

i realy dont care about that

[cloud flint]

Everything heavier than iron is created through nuclear fission in stars

[dense bane]

like density ?

[cloud flint]

Atomic mass

[dense bane]

g/m³

[cloud flint]

More electrons n stuff

[dense bane]

ah oki :))

[ancient wharf]

so ur telling me gases are heavier than iron?

[dense bane]

more neutrons and protons bc electrons are ~0

[ancient wharf]

u mentioned hydrogen before

[dense bane]

nope

[cloud flint]

Yes. Xenon is heavier than iron. It’s less densly packed than iron though so it floats

[cloud flint]

U need to have more of all three otherwise you get an ionized partical but yeah ik what you mean

[ancient wharf]

oh wait i forgot bruh the text file i gave has scientific meanings in it

he Quran refers to iron as being "sent down," which some interpret as a reference to the fact that iron is believed to have originated from supernovae explosions in space and was delivered to Earth through meteors and asteroid impacts. This aligns with the modern scientific understanding that most of the iron on Earth originated from outer space.

didnt u read this

[dense bane]

sure u need more electrons

anyway i dont know what is about here

[cloud flint]

Why then is everything other than iron not considered “sent down”?

I did btw

That sentence on it’s own is completely obtuse

[dense bane]

why that even matter ?

[cloud flint]

It’s proof of the quaran being a divine text

Sent by god

[dense bane]

ah ok

[ancient wharf]

during the time, iron was considered to be a very strong material and was commonly used for making tools, weapons.Iron is also significant because it is one of the elements that can withstand immense pressure and is vital for physical strength, making it a metaphor for strength.

[cloud flint]

None of these claims stand on their own. They all rely on modern knowledge and inference to make sense. Without them they are just more religious metaphors for things in everyday life

[ancient wharf]

false

you are ignorant

[cloud flint]

Exactly the metaphor without inferring just refers to iron’s strength and how it’s a gift from god

[ancient wharf]

how are you saying they rely on modern knowledge when im saying for like the 10th time now that it was revealed in the 7th century

[dense bane]

idk even the text

[cloud flint]

We choose to interpret it as supernovae creating heavy elements

[ancient wharf]

what im trying to prove here is that scientists only knew that iron came from supernovas after the 20th century

[cloud flint]

In order to justify that it’s stuff that people wouldn’t know in the 7th century your prescribing your own inferences onto their writings

[cloud flint]

Haseeb here is an example

[ancient wharf]

you talk like u have lived in the 7th century

[ancient wharf]

wdym?

brb

[dense bane]

we should to keep things clear to get a conclusion

[cloud flint]

If I say “water is a gift that runs through all life” that has many interpretations but once we discover that all life is based on water I can change my interpretations to “woah look I predicted the nature of the universe!”

As a primitive human I can know water is a gift and we all need it to survive

[dense bane]

hey thats not that wow , trees , animals need water so

no water no plants

no plants no animals

[cloud flint]

Exactly

[dense bane]

no plants and animals no humans

ez

so water is a gift

wich is true

[cloud flint]

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran

Conceptually religion is never about god it’s about what he said to us or what he gave to us

[ancient wharf]

you are completely ignoring the point im trying to prove by saying irrelevant things. My point here is to prove that the Quran has said scientific statements that are being discovered up until now. The big bang theory is mentioned was discovered during the early 20th century. The protective layer of earth is mentioned which has been discovered in the 20th century. And the role of mountains to stabilize the earth. this has been discovered after the plate tectonic theory so its post-1960s

also the seperation of salt water and freshwater

the entirety of the text was to prove this point yet you are here talking about interpretations and why other elements did not "come down"

this is what i meant when i said u are ignorant

you clearly didnt read the text properly

[cloud flint]

this

also

no the point your trying to prove is that people 1400 years ago knew things they should be able to know without science

[ancient wharf]

no im not

[cloud flint]

but the thing is none of this stuff is explitly true and uses extremely vague claims and idea's to claim that this is stuff people knew without sicence

if the point is even religious establishments did science your not wrong

I know that

science is just a process

nothing divine about it

[ancient wharf]

see you are calling it false

so whats the point of the debate

[cloud flint]

not false, but blatantly vague

it ignores nuance and relys on human intuition to get the point you want accross

without my understanding on the nature of the universe it tells me nothing I can't infer from my surroundings

"iron is a gift from the heavens" hell yeah medival me probably has one iron hoe that allows me to farm and survive

ofc iron would seem like a gift from god

and I guess it is if you consider that god is something we can't understand

the point I'm trying to say is nothing about this is false. It's blatantly vague to where anyone can infer whatever meaning they want from it

Like I can choose to infer from the iron thing that god came down and actually handed it to us personally

[sullen comet]

we still on this topic 😭

[cloud flint]

yeah religion is a big topic

we should give it the proper respect of being thourough if we want to talk about it

[sullen comet]

indeed

[cloud flint]

my main problem with it is it has killed so many

[ancient wharf]

the website you gave is just false

its an anti-islam site

i could tell after reading like 2 minutes into it

[cloud flint]

I did five minutes of googling mb

[dense bane]

never ends , i think i can demostarte why we will cant have a good concluion

[ancient wharf]

yeah its fine dw

[dense bane]

maybe bc of terorists

[ancient wharf]

no its just wants to defame Islam

like the articles on there was only about the bad side of the religion and most of it is false

also whenever you see a website or anything that has ☪️ this moon and star logo it is most likely incorrect cause the logo was never a part of Islam. It was more of a cultural innovation created by the ottoman empire

[stone osprey]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/846621263895330847/1179259590311936011/caption.gif?ex=65792213&is=6566ad13&hm=1a9dcb99c1cde5b6875b12ff273696ac134abd0db6257c4b27ec7a54139f844a&

[stone osprey]

ooo nice

[stone osprey]

I feel like most of those are pretty easy to figure out, and others are too unclear and could be interpreted in a lot of ways

[cloud flint]

religion is both good and bad. At it's best it brings people together and helps create positive change and morals, at its worst it pushes us to our worst tendencies

[cloud flint]

Yeah

Wsg kep

Hru

[stone osprey]

chocolate milk

[stone osprey]

I feel ded

[cloud flint]

😋

[cloud flint]

Like physically or emotionally or what

[stone osprey]

physically

[cloud flint]

Oof

Rip

[celest bridge]

Ngl I dislike the moral argument for religion cause that would imply that if you're following said religion that means you're moral when that has been proven to be wrong time and time again by all the horrible people in religion. It doesn't necessarily mean the religion itself is bad but it certainly doesn't do it any favors.

I feel like morality is decided by the people within a group and not the rules for the group.

Bad people will do bad things no matter what morals they're supposedly following.

[dense bane]

yes

[dense bane]

idk that , i prefer what Jesus said