PHILOSOPHY CHANNEL

[stone osprey]

nor did I imply it

what I think makes us conscious and not AI is a realization of desires, and having desires in the first place

AI can't have that, maybe it will eventually

but idk

[gusty ermine]

you didn't say that in the sentence but that's what you replied to bro

I asked at what point does ai become sentient
you said when it has thoughts and feelings
I said at what point does it have thoughts and feelings
you said when it has realisation of desires
I asked if babies don't have realisation are they not sentient? To ask why does realisation matter
you said they do since they cry
I said cries are just instinct
you said instincts are realisation caused by nerves
you said nerves still realise
I said they don't
then you said nerves don't make sentience
???

Do you forget the conversation or something 😭😭😭😭

[ancient wharf]

Dementia ahh moment

[stone osprey]

ah, I'm referring to a conscious realization made by babies (or even adults) because of a nervous reaction or other stimulation that makes consciousness. My reasoning for babies was a bit confusing. Nerves don't equal consciousness, but a reaction made consciously to that nervous (or other stimulation/reaction) does.

[stone osprey]

I said it in a confusing way I think

[stone osprey]

I hope this makes better sense

[gusty ermine]

So, when you touch a hot stove and pull back your hand instinctively before realising the stove was hot, you weren't conscious during the period of time of you touching the stove and pulling your hand back since you didn't consciously react to the stimulus of the stove being hot then?

[stone osprey]

well you were still conscious I'd assume, but your reaction wasn't conscious

it just happened

[gusty ermine]

then clearly a conscious reaction doesn't matter for being conscious

[stone osprey]

how?

[gusty ermine]

you just said it

[stone osprey]

huh??

when

[gusty ermine]

you were still concious while doing a reaction that wasn't conscious

[stone osprey]

yeah?

[gusty ermine]

literally what you said bruv 😭

[stone osprey]

how is that relevant to if you're conscious or not

maybe I'm really bad at explaining

[gusty ermine]

or understanding

[stone osprey]

nah I'm great at understanding

what is confusing to you

[gusty ermine]

it's relevant because if you can be CONSCIOUS while doing something that doesn't require consciousness like you just said then clearly a conscious activity is not required for being conscious

[stone osprey]

cause I'm saying pretty clearly what I'm trying to get across

[gusty ermine]

How is this trail of thought hard to understand 😭

[stone osprey]

when you're conscious you're always doing something that requires consciousness

unless you're completely limp and not actively doing anything inside or outside your mind

then you're conscious without doing anything requiring consciousness

[gusty ermine]

bro

okay let me lay it out completely

just wait

[stone osprey]

I don't think we're disagreeing, I think something was misinterpreted

[gusty ermine]

I'll sum up like the last 10 or so messages

in a systematic way

[gusty ermine]

you: assumption: conscious reactions are required to be conscious

me: example: an instinct is an unconscious reaction (like the hot stove example), so it must mean that if consciousness is present only during a conscious reaction, consciousness doesn't exist in an unconscious reaction like an instinct

you: consciousness still exists but the reaction wasn't conscious

this contradicts the initial assumption that conscious reactions are required to be conscious since as we just saw, consciousness can exist in an unconscious reaction as well.

This implies that conscious reactions are NOT required to be conscious.

This means that machines can be conscious while not doing conscious actions (since conscious reactions are not required for consciousness).

This means that the bar for consciousness in machines to be able to do things with intent/desires was wrong, since consciousness can clearly exist without intentional reaction like we just logically saw.

I can't believe I had to type that all out, genuinely 😭

[stone osprey]

ah, it was a misunderstanding

[gusty ermine]

and before you say instincts are conscious, they are psychologically proven to be not to, if I'm not mistaken but let me just look it up to be sure

[stone osprey]

I don't think they are

idk how else to say what I'm trying to say

[gusty ermine]

yeah they aren't, just looked it up to check

[stone osprey]

but you misunderstood what I was saying

[gusty ermine]

at what line was the misunderstanding present in the message?

[stone osprey]

it doesn't imply that conscious reactions are not required to be conscious

I don't know how else to explain this

[sullen comet]

what does it mean to be conscious tho

[stone osprey]

dies

[sullen comet]

noo, you can’t die :(

[stone osprey]

I can't keep talking about consciousness cause I seem to be unable to explain it plainly enough

[sullen comet]

usually when that happens, it just means that you don’t have a deep enough understanding of it lol

[stone osprey]

I understand perfectly

[sullen comet]

than how

[stone osprey]

I just can't come up with anything simpler

not without more time anyway

[sullen comet]

you can, there’s always something simpler lol

ah

[stone osprey]

more time than I'd like to invest into the conversation rn

cause I'm still in class

[sullen comet]

and you’re on your phone

smh

[gusty ermine]

How? If you say burgers are required to not be hungry, and then you eat an apple and satiate your hunger, then that implies that burgers are NOT required to not be hungry, i.e., you can satiate hunger without burgers as well

Similarly, if you say conscious/intentionally reactions are required to be conscious/sentient, and then you do an unconscious/unintentional reaction like an instinct and say you're conscious, then that implies that instinctual/conscious reactions are NOT required to be conscious, i.e., you can be conscious without needing to do an intentional/conscious reaction.

1 to 1 example

If you don't understand this, you simply don't want to, atp tbh

[stone osprey]

yes

I agree with you

lol

[sullen comet]

lol

[stone osprey]

like I said I don't think we're disagreeing

[sullen comet]

misunderstandings

[gusty ermine]

but we literally are

[stone osprey]

ok

[stone osprey]

that's how I'm reading the situation

[gusty ermine]

your stance is that conscious behaviour is required for something to be conscious

Mine is that they are not

[stone osprey]

I agree with him

[gusty ermine]

this is a disagreement

[stone osprey]

nono you misunderstood what I was meaning

[gusty ermine]

bro that's literally verbatim of what you said

[sullen comet]

yeah, 99% of debates and arguments tend to be misunderstandings tbf lol

[gusty ermine]

like actual verbatim

[stone osprey]

the capability of consciousness behavior is required, to be conscious. But It's not required 24/7 like how you think I'm saying it

[stone osprey]

yeah

[gusty ermine]

misunderstand and then say the other person misunderstood 😭😭

[stone osprey]

I agree with you existence, it just seems what I said might’ve came across incorrectly to you

[stone osprey]

I did misunderstand you initially but realized you also misunderstood what I said

glad this is cleared up now xd

at least to me it seems to be

[sullen comet]

imagine

misunderstanding

[gusty ermine]

"how" here means you disagree with this, right?

Just understanding the verbage

[stone osprey]

my word choice probably could've been better

[stone osprey]

OH

we agreed this whole time 💀

[gusty ermine]

we didn't

[stone osprey]

I thought you meant this as an absolute

that's how I misunderstood you

lmao

[gusty ermine]

okay so now that that's out of the way

[sullen comet]

lol

new question?

[gusty ermine]

since conscious intentional actions aren't required to be conscious, you can say a machine that can do everything a human can is the same as the human, right?

[stone osprey]

yeah, in the situation where a human isn't making any actions consciously

[gusty ermine]

btw, when someone says "aren't required" it de facto by default means they can be involved and can also not be involved

[stone osprey]

yeah I probably misread it because my teacher was saying something idk

[gusty ermine]

we are not talking about humans anymore, homie

[stone osprey]

okay

[stone osprey]

in the situation you're giving I'd say yes

however it doesn't mean the machine is conscious either

[gusty ermine]

okay go on

i like where this is going

[stone osprey]

it's capable of the same things (in this scenario) that the human is doing. The human could still be conscious while not doing anything consciously just like how the machine can do what the human is doing without needing a consciousness

I hope that makes sense

[sullen comet]

no it doesn’t 😭

[stone osprey]

well shit

[gusty ermine]

human does thing -> conscious
machine does the same thing -> not conscious?

[sullen comet]

LOL

[gusty ermine]

well atp you're just biased now

this isn't even a logical argument anymore

[sullen comet]

let’s not assume yet 😂

[stone osprey]

the machine is doing something without a conscious realization of what it's doing. If the human is doing something it's making the conscious action to do that thing. Like lifting a box for example. The machine can do that automatically without having a conscious thought about doing it. A human needs to think about doing it.

unless the human is given very specific electrical impulses to make it lift that box

then I suppose the human could lift the box unconsciously

[stone osprey]

I'm not

[stone osprey]

this is how I'm understanding your scenario

I hope it's correct

[burnt tartan]

damn yall still talki

[gusty ermine]

okay but your thoughts and intentions are also just specific electrical impulses coursing through the neurons of your prefrontal cortex stimulated by past behaviour, smell, objects, vision, sense of touch, etc, though

[sullen comet]

lol fr

[gusty ermine]

that's literally all they are

the machine is going though the same process

you just aren't using the word "thoughts" for that

[stone osprey]

true

hmm

[burnt tartan]

yall consider comatosed/ vegetable people to be conscious ?

[sullen comet]

LOL

[stone osprey]

actually I don't think we've figured out what makes us conscious yet

now that I think about it

[sullen comet]

nuerons go boom and boom

[gusty ermine]

good question, I do

[stone osprey]

I'm just doing my best to explain it :p

[burnt tartan]

ive seen a few vegetable people communicate in unique ways on yt, and apparently comatosed people can dream

[gusty ermine]

@stone osprey

[gusty ermine]

this is what pendiam said ten billion years ago, and I responded to that the same thing that I'm gonna respond to you with: that's what philosophical discussions are about

[sullen comet]

i was thinking of you talking about vegetarians and then i searched up with comatose meant 💀

[gusty ermine]

If we knew scientifically what constitutes consciousness and what doesn't then this wouldn't be a discussion

you could just say the machines fills these criteria for consciousness but not these therefore it is not conscious

but as we know, no such criteria exist

[stone osprey]

when comatose I'm pretty sure that they're considered unconscious.

[gusty ermine]

they definitely are conscious

[stone osprey]

yuh

[gusty ermine]

brain activity of them have shown responses to what people outside say, I think

[stone osprey]

yeah that has happened too

hmmm

[gusty ermine]

different parts of the brain, amygdala, prefrontal cortex, etc firing up

@rustic dragon still waiting for your response about free will

[rustic dragon]

Thanks! Just got out of practice, and somehow it saved my partial response. xD

I think a lot of people confuse "can be explained by scientific theories" with "the same as machinery."

We have the ability to consider, to think, to feel, to love, etc. We have the ability to choose where we work, how much focus to put into school, whether to exercise, follow through on an agreement or obey the law, etc. And we live with the consequences of those choices.

We may be manipulated, influenced by our upbringing, genetics, and physical and mental health, as well as by media we consume and the thoughts we allow to grow. But as someone who writes there is a big difference between forcing a character to act "out of character" and knowing what the fictional person would naturally choose. (Giving them "free will," as it were, which is a very common phenomenon, perhaps only understood by authors and roleplayers 😅 ).

I also know that (personally) my belief in God, and in my own free will, and being proactive puts me in a much more mentally healthy space than when I'm reactive to circumstances around me. The fact that excercising your will is healthy, seems also an evidence to me that this is the way we were meant to function.

[rustic dragon]

noted

[dense bane]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-you-become-the-person-you-want-to-be-big-think-david-goggins-how-do-you-want-to-improve-yourself-what-do-you-do-to-be-the-person-you-wanted-to-be-gif-24136592

https://tenor.com/view/david-goggins-stay-hard-stay-fucking-hard-inspirational-gif-16058965

:))

[rustic dragon]

Yep! Often to be healthy we have to step outside of the present moment and do things that don't instinctually feel good. :)

[dense bane]

a thing i like at Goggins is that

dont matter what , do what should to do

[rustic dragon]

min.exe stopped working

"It shouldn't matter what, do what you should do"?

[rustic dragon]

(Is the above what this means?

[dense bane]

yes

that

idk i use romanian grammar and i hope is fine

:))

[rustic dragon]

ohhhh that's actually very cool to know! I can get Romanian grammar lessons just by paying attention to your messages 🤩

[dense bane]

ok 80% is Romanian

[rustic dragon]

noted 😄

[stone osprey]

lol

[sullen comet]

is pride a good or bad thing?

cause ik there’s some cultures who encourage pride and other cultures that discourage it

[dense bane]

bad , both of them

[sullen comet]

eh? but pride is one thing?

[stone osprey]

I think he means its good and bad

which is true

[dense bane]

pride is bad , but dont be too humble , we all are humans

idk how to say better

[stone osprey]

yeah

[rustic dragon]

I think we use pride in two different ways.

One is a deep sense of self-satisfaction, while another is arrogance 🤔

[dense bane]

satisfied vs arrogant

[sullen comet]

ah that makes more sense

[sullen comet]

understandable

[cloud flint]

<@&1305977291695718462> how real is mansplaining, is it ever ok, and how do we avoid it?

[stone osprey]

I don't really have a good idea of what it is

[sullen comet]

for those who don't know what mansplaining is

[stone osprey]

oh

sounds cringe

[sullen comet]

imo, i think mansplaining is okay to an extent. as someone who forgets things easily and a lot of stuff, i find it helpful sometimes when someone repeats something to me that I think i already know but i actually don't. In this case, i'll use my dad since he "lectures" me a lot. earlier today, i had some things going on and i told my dad. i knew what to do already but having my dad to explain something that i already know really helped me understand what i needed to do despite my wants not matching my needs.

one thing i'm confused about is why it's call mansplaining and not just personsplaning 💀 . in my experience, women tend to do it more than men. even i do it sometimes without the intention of doing it - it's something i'm working on lol

the grammar in this paragraph is so bad 💀

anyway

[stone osprey]

hm

I don't know if I've experienced it

[rustic dragon]

I think it could form a damaging stereotype to equate "explaining condescendingly" with "men."

(The form of the word seems to say "if a man is explaining, it will be condescending.")

But I'm sure some men do explain things in a condescending way.

[rustic dragon]

Probably was invented by some women annoyed with some men 🤣

"Downsplaining" would be more descriptive. Saying someone is explaining something down to your level.

(Or to a lower perceived level)

[celest bridge]

I feel like for that it's like why we don't give monkeys rights. They're kinda similar to humans aren't they? But they aren't so they don't get human rights.

[cloud flint]

I think to an extent we need to be more tolerant about being talked down to

people almost never accept criticsism, even if its good natured

obviously we should aim to talk to everyone like equals but I think a level of condisension is inevitable when teaching someone

[sullen comet]

i absolutely agree with this. people do it with good intention most of the time. i play a lot of sports with my dad and usually it's my dad teaching me so he knows most of it. he teaches and taught me how to play tennis, golf, swimming, martial arts, etc. a lot of time, i get annoyed cause he keeps correctly me, but you learn to tolerate it and not get as annoyed about it lol. it's a different case if someone keeps correcting you about the same thing over and over again to the point it's not neccessary

[burnt tartan]

Yeah

[gusty ermine]

I don't really see any reason for free will in your response. You said you can be manipulated, influenced, etc but still have free will, but don't explain how or why. And that forcing someone and having free will is different. And then god.

[gusty ermine]

They are not similar to human beings. They don't have the same level of intelligence to understand human rights, justice, philosophy, morality, etc. I'm not saying they don't have morality, they do, but it's more instinctual rather than philosophised higher level of morality like ours. If one of theirs gets killed by an opposing clans, they wage war on the opposite clan, but not because they understand why it's bad, it's mostly just a very basic level of morality that one of ours got killed, so they must die. Also, keeping their basic emotions in mind, they do have basic rights like right to life, right to their own land, right to freedom, etc where the government protects certain areas for them to thrive.

[sullen comet]

what's your stance in this conversation?

or debate

or whatever

[gusty ermine]

I'm mostly neutral

Mostly because I think I lean a little towards giving AI rights but not fully

"does ai deserve rights" is a neutral question and when people say they don't, I'm just dissecting their arguments to better understand how and why they think that, what their basic values/understanding, etc of human consciousness, justice, morality, etc are with which they say that rather than trying to oppose them

because this is a discussion channel right, people saying "no they don't" isn't exactly a satisfactory response which warrants discussion

most responses I've gotten are just "no they don't" without anymore depth to it

some people have mentioned free will, consciousness, intention, etc but they never really explained why free will, consciousness, intention, etc matters or exists or doesn't exist with AI and only humans

@sullen comet

A good response that I was looking for when i asked the question would be on the lines of: there's a fundamental difference between humans+animals and AI. This fundamental difference exists in humans+animals because of this reason. This fundamental difference in humans+animals doesn't exist in AI, no matter how smart or advanced the AI gets. This fundamental difference is essential for rights and looking at things as "live". The reason for that is this.

most people just mention the fundamental difference as "consciousness", "free will", etc and never go further

[sullen comet]

hmm

i can respond in a bit

when i finish eating lol

[gusty ermine]

or you know, if you're arguing that they do deserve rights, then the same thing except for fundamental difference, you mention the fundamental cause of looking at things as live and deserving of rights and whatnot

and why AI has that fundamental cause

[celest bridge]

Yeah. They have rights but not human rights. I feel like the same would apply to ai.

[gusty ermine]

Why? They don't have human rights because of the reasons I mentioned. But an AI can have human level of banter ability, philosophy, emotion, etc. so why not?

[gusty ermine]

@celest bridge @rustic dragon

[rustic dragon]

I spoke of the ability to choose. But I'm uncertain how to properly articulate that to someone who believes every choice is the product of a chemical reaction, and therefore not free. 🤔

Because those who believe that would believe that even fighting addiction and struggling against your instincts is random and uncontrollable chemical reactions, right?

[celest bridge]

If we create ai that is on a human level that has emotions and whatnot we should probably give them some rights but I do not believe that they should have the same rights. I simply feel like an ai that's lower than us should be given similar rights to animals and if it's higher than us than we gotta do something to prevent them from taking over. I also feel like ai should be treated more as a tool than as a proper intelligence unless of course we're able to make something that we could reasonably assume has proper intelligence.

[celest bridge]

Oh ye, I feel like basing rights on free will and consciousness is kinda dumb as we can't even prove if other humans have that.

[gusty ermine]

chemical reactions ≠ random. Certain conditions like pressure (atm for us mostly), temperature, the passing of time on earth, heat reception in our various organs, our whole environment have very specific conditions that make us do very specific tasks and engage in behaviour. Also, I'm not saying that humans don't have free will any greater than the sum of their chemical reactions and what not, but I'm also not saying they do. I'm just trying to understand if they do

A lot of the times the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts, I'm just looking for you guys' opinions (including reasons) of whether you think that is the case here or not

Also, you're the only one yet (I'm yet to read Cuttlefish's reply) to give me a coherent well articulated reply, so thank you for that 😭😭🙏

Ankles' response was also well articulated but it didn't go much further

[gusty ermine]

Hm, so you think if they are as intelligent they should get rights but if they aren't, they don't? Right?

[rustic dragon]

Maybe a good argument for free will is that the philosophy of no free will leads to an illogical conclusion - why would we discipline children? They can't help their actions. But then again neither could the parent who yelled at them. The abuser had no choice, nor the one who broke that cycle. And what are self-help books anyway?

If there is no free will, then society and loses meaning. 🤔

But if we have free will (tempered by dependency on substances, influences, etc), the world makes logical sense.

[rustic dragon]

Awe you're welcome and thank you.

[rustic dragon]

Yes, I like reading Ankles responses :D

[celest bridge]

Yes. If we don't give animals human rights because they're either not human or because of their lesser intelligence than why would we treat ai differently. Of course I feel like even ai of lesser intelligence should be given some rights as even if we cannot confirm that they actually feel pain or sadness there's still a chance that they do.

[gusty ermine]

That is if you're looking at that with a lens that believes that free will exists. If you look at that with a lens that doesn't believe free will exists then it would be something like this and perfectly logical:
We discipline children not because of our own free will but because our socio-cultural environment has programmed us to do and the discipline further socio-culturally programs the children to have the same behaviour as well, it doesn't change their behaviour because of their free will, but because of the continuous stimuli that we feed them in the form of discipline that their chemical processes adapt to the changes of their environment as an effect to the discipline (more or less serotonin/dopamine/cortisol/oxytocin/norepinephrine, etc releasing or not releasing in response to punishment, award, etc changing their potassium ion levels between their synapses changing their electrical impulses through their neurons and thereby changing their thoughts and actions)

Same with abuser, and parents yelling. We criticise them because firstly we are already programmed to criticise that behaviour (a stimulus for us and our working brain and nervous system, going through the same mechanism I mentioned above to trigger behaviour), and secondly because that behaviour changes because of the change in their environmental conditions caused by our criticism and preventative action (whether it be punishment, social outcast, or whatever) rather than them consciously changing their abusive/yelling behaviour out of their own free will. Same with self help books. So society still doesn't lose its meaning and stays perfectly logical.

[gusty ermine]

So you believe there's no difference between a biologically made organism and an artificially made "organism" as long as the artificially made organism can imitate biologically made organisms well?

[gusty ermine]

I think this is a whole new topic which can have a long discussion. <@&1305977291695718462> does free will exist?

[stone osprey]

well, if you can get something to write on, and something to write with for free, then I guess you could write a free will

[gusty ermine]

lol

[cloud flint]

I think weather or not it exists is inconsequential

[gusty ermine]

we can still talk about inconsequential things, you know

[celest bridge]

I do believe that there is a slight difference but in terms of rights they should be treated roughly the same.

[gusty ermine]

whats the slight difference?

I have hijacked this channel, I feel 💀💀💀

[celest bridge]

Mechanical creatures I feel can be more mass produced thus since more can be made if they have the same like, reproductive rights than that could be very dangerous.

[rustic dragon]

So if you become aware of it, and do something different would that be free will? Or just also a happenstance of fate and influence?

[gusty ermine]

I see, fair enough.

[gusty ermine]

something different like?

[rustic dragon]

(Like stopping criticizing others, or another behavior you "realized" you were just doing because of conditioning

(Now I sleep

[gusty ermine]

I mean, if you stop criticizing others then there's gotta be some stimuli that caused that trail of thought to fire up in your prefrontal cortex, right? You can also realise that you were just doing a behaviour because you were conditioned to because an external influence caused you to be able to have that thought. So yeah, possibly it's also just a happenstance of fate and conditioning. Unless there's something more to it that I'm missing and you or someone else can enlighten me on

For example, when people tell others to "try to imagine a new colour", they aren't able to, because they have only ever gotten sensory stimuli from the visible spectrum of light, so their brains don't have any data to come up with a new thought of colour all on its own by its free will because it was never exposed to any stimuli like that

there's a very famous thought experiment based on this called "Mary's room": Suppose you put Mary from her birth in a room with nothing blue or anything that can produce blue (chemicals or whatever) for her life. She can read everything about the colour blue, she has access to all knowledge, except the colour of blue, every information about optics, wavelengths, visible spectrum, she knows blue exists, she knows its wavelength, she knows its behaviour. So, can she, without having ever actually seen blue, produce an image of blue in her mind all on her own?

If she can't, then that means there is something extra about our experiences than just plain scientific data, but if she can't then that means there is nothing more to our experience than just data

more food for thought

[main wagon]

Yes

[dense bane]

Do !philosophy to get the role my fellow philosopher

[main wagon]

!philosophy

[sturdy lake]

i’ve heard a few blind ppl say they cant lol

[gusty ermine]

Google is always listening guys 💀💀

I haven't seen a ted or philosophy video in years

[dense bane]

They aren’t the only ones

But that’s a conversation for another day

[gusty ermine]

yuh

[dense bane]

There’s reasons why I physically disconnect cameras and microphones on my laptop and remove intel ME if possible

At this point though I’m typing this on an iPhone and there’s not much I can do with that tbh

[gusty ermine]

escaping big tech tracking is a myth

digital privacy is a myth

[dense bane]

To an extent yeah. You’re always going to be tracked to some extent but there are things to heavily reduce it

You could go full schizo, buy an old thinkpad and remove intel ME by reflashing the bios with either Coreboot or Libreboot and then remove the hard drive from it. Physically remove the camera and microphone completely along with disabling all devices not necessary in bios, then running off of a tails bootable usb

That’s for the true privacy nerds

So basically me but I’m not that extreme

Yet

Then it goes to Tor with triangulation issues and potential government controlled node issues where if the same entity controls both the entry and the exit node they have the full ability to see the data coming through ie websites visited

Again, a topic for another day

Remember kids, don’t use a vpn with tor, it may seem more secure but really it isolates you and makes you look more suspicious ie the government is more incentivized to figure out why you’re trying so hard not to be found

[gusty ermine]

I always feel like somebody's watchin meeeeeee
and I have no privacy

[dense bane]

Fr

My FBI agent probably has enough information to throw me in prison lol

*kidding of course

https://tenor.com/view/spitting-coffee-fbi-agent-gif-24958047

[dense bane]

Only way to technically not be tracked by any entity is by not owning or being around anyone with an electronic device of any kind which is pretty much impossible especially in cities. You’d have to live out in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no access to technology in any way shape or form. Anyone who comes to visit is not allowed to bring any sort of device anywhere near you or your home

Then you’re pretty much safe

[gusty ermine]

https://open.spotify.com/track/7jwQlYGpOml9ETGre1HqGA?si=8wV07Q_bSZWtS2l9dM6IZw
I listened to this while reading

[paper trellis]

!philosophy

[jade star]

Ohh lemme add it

!philosophy

[sturdy lake]

what if we all use a vpn

[ancient wharf]

So glad i live in a third world country

Government dont gaf about what i do on the internet

And my shared ip automatically changes every week or so

Dont ask me how tho my provider uses stolen cables to give internet

[ornate hazel]

hmm

You could argue that free will doesn’t actually exist because our choices are shaped by a mix of biology, upbringing, and environment. We feel like we're making choices, but those choices are influenced by things we didn’t choose, like our genes or our past. So, even if it feels like free will, it's more like we're following a script we can’t see

what do you think, Existence?

[dense bane]

There’s triangulation issues with that

Good luck convincing all the techies to do that

[rustic dragon]

How would not being able to picture a color you'd never seen before be proof that we have no free will? Someone who is a curt and rough-speaking father because he knows nothing else may not be able to imagine a man speaking softly as "fatherly" because his internal definition of the word is harsh. But once he is exposed to a father who is loving and kind he has the free choice to continue in what he had always known,or to pursue the new way of living through hard work and changing his ways.

"Lack of free will" would mean that he actually has no choice in which path to take as a father, and if he improves or not is just luck/forgotten influences, right?

So not "can she imagine blue?," but "which color will she paint her masterpiece?"

(I guess that begs the question which should have begun it all - what even is the definition of free will

[cloud flint]

<@&1305977291695718462> with no context how does the phrase "its not your fault" make you feel

[sullen comet]

bit of a personal question don’t you think?

[cloud flint]

I think its an intersting phrase because it is applicable to many situations. "its not your fault" can hold many different types of meanings depending on the situation ect. so when you put it by itself, does it hold negative or positive connotation?

[stone osprey]

indifferent

nothing changes for me

[jade star]

Its meant to be used as a way to please someone and not hurt him further

Shows great comfort and support

[sullen comet]

in what context would it hold a negative connotation tho?

[cloud flint]

Its not your fault could implie you were going to fail either way

[sullen comet]

free will is free of choice. whether you're influenced by the environment, people, or events, it's all ultimately up to the individual. it's just how you choose to hold back your temptations when you might be tempted to do something, or how you decide to go against the morals you grew up with. this, in itself, is free of choice. you'll be influenced by everything and everyone whether you like it or not (thus why it's important who you choose to be close with and keep in touch), just a matter if you let it be a big influence the way you choose - just how being around devouted people will change you and how being around perverted people will change you to an extent. at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you're exposed to because there will always be a part of you that's alive - whether it's a good or bad part. i hope this makes sense lol @gusty ermine

[sullen comet]

uhh, could you give me an example in which that context would be used?

[jade star]

When i hear that all i think is trying to make someone relax and feel better

[sullen comet]

same

[cloud flint]

Like getting second place in a race by a few seconds and the winner telling you its not your fault, basically saying you had no chance

[sullen comet]

if someone said that to me and i won second place, i would be confused as heck lol

i haven't really seen it being used in a demeaning manner

[cloud flint]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sullen comet]

what made you ask this question anyway?

[stone osprey]

you didn't win silver, you lost gold 😔

[cloud flint]

I was wondering if peoples perception of words and phrases was based or related to their personality

[sullen comet]

hmm, yes. personality is basically another word for mindset and everyone sees things differently. thus why there tends to be misunderstandings among arguments or debates

if that makes sense

[stone osprey]

hm

[sturdy lake]

if i hear “it’s not yout fault” without context i would just think “what isn’t my fault?” and not feel anything except maybe just curious about what happened

[gusty ermine]

Because you said "do something different would that be free will" as in doing something different from what all the stimuli and and past influences, etc lets you do could be free will. Which is fair. If you are able to do something on your own which is independent of all the past influences and stimuli that you've received, then you might say you have free will, because here no other external factor affected your choice. So, the colour example is trying to do that something, free of all external influence, imagining a new colour. If you can imagine, then that means that the limits of your mind are indeed beyond what the external world lets you do/imagine, if you can't imagine, then that means that your mind and thoughts are indeed limited to only external influence. Colour is just an example to get this point accross easily, you can scale it to anything pretty much.

The father choosing whether or not to continue being curt or change his way also depends on a lot of factors like his emotional state, whether or not he is tired of the consequences of his actions and him himself, whether or not he's neutral about it (so more factors come into play), whether or not he's content with it, all of which also further are dependent on a lot of factors including what happened in the past, how people behaved with it, how his child turned out to be, how other's children came out to be, how his emotinal states were while making all those harsh decisions on his child, etc and whether or not the cost of changing his ways is outweighed by the reward of being a new person (and if you follow it down to brain chemistry boils down to the concentration of his neurotransmitters when he has to make this "choice", and depending on whether the positive or "negative" neurotransmitters fire up, he "makes" this choice, when in fact, it was just his brain chemistry coming to a new electrochemical equilibrium based on his neurotransmitters which we thought of as his free choice)

[sullen comet]

(it's also very possible to be in an emotional state and still be able to think logically to an extent) - just a response to your parapgraphs but yk

[gusty ermine]

you missed the point

emotional state ≠ overwhelmed by emotions

minstrel will get it

[cloud flint]

do you think its possible to be content and happy sustaibly without socail interaction?

[celest bridge]

I feel like yes for some people. I feel like there are a lot of people who live in the woods and whatnot who seem very happy.

For the average person though I feel like socializing is a must.

[reef star]

I actually really like that we have these discussions

[ornate hazel]

I expected it to be half dead after a while but yeah its really cool

[sullen comet]

yes, as long as you still have some close relationships with family or friends and find yourself some hobbies, passions, and interests. introverts are evidence of this lol

[burnt tartan]

Same

[sullen comet]

idk if this is philosophical but

what is color lol

[sturdy lake]

electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths of diff frequencies

when meeting the retina, rods and cones in our eyes interpret the diff frequencies with different hues and brightness, we call this perception color

the same radiation reaching the eye of another animal may be interpreted differently or not at all, like some animals can see a wider range of frequencies than we can, and so they see more colors

[cloud flint]

I mean more like no friends or family just you and what you enjoy doing, and not interacting with anyone

completly alone and with minimal human contact

is this possible to be healthy or nah?

[sturdy lake]

just from my exp, u can as long as ur super invested in something like work or a game, but as soon as u lift ur head and are away from that thing, u feel a very strong sense something is missing.

so bc of that i dont think it's unsustainable

oops, sustainable*

[sullen comet]

humans are naturally social creatures. in japan there’s a lot of people who literally choose to not go outside at all and they stay inside their rooms or in their house. this is dangerous to do. you’d eventually feel lonely because of the fact that you have no one

[sullen comet]

hmm

is everything you do a choice?

[sullen comet]

<@&1305977291695718462> you better not be dry otherwise i'm giong to stalk you and find you and be the demon under your bed

[burnt tartan]

Yeah

Does this beg the question of free will

[sullen comet]

i'm going to be the demon under your bed

[cloud flint]

yuh

[sullen comet]

😭

[cloud flint]

inaction is action

choosing to not do something is a choice

[sullen comet]

yes

[cloud flint]

its like

[sullen comet]

basically

[sullen comet]

now - type your response in one message lol

[cloud flint]

😠

there is the idea of a "lightcone"

where basicly

the closer you are to an event

the less possibilities there are for it

[sullen comet]

huh

[sullen comet]

so does that mean there will come to a time where there's only one possibility of choice?

[cloud flint]

the present

we can only make a decision for future events

we can't make decisions for the present

there is no choice in the present

which is why I personally think free will is a mute concept

[stone osprey]

I want you under my bed though

[cloud flint]

fr women in my room 🗣️

[stone osprey]

yeah pretty much

[stone osprey]

you can have any other one

[cloud flint]

lets hope I get the one 🙏

<@&1305977291695718462> was lucifer the bad guy or misunderstood

[stone osprey]

idk probably both

[cloud flint]

🤔 I think god is to blame for the fruit

like

wtf did you expect

[sullen comet]

free will lol

if he didn't put it in the garden

not really free will

[cloud flint]

ignorance leads to fault

if you wilfully leave someone ignorant you can't hold them accountable for their actions

you can't do something without adequate justification

[sturdy lake]

should ur parents lock u up in a cage where u cant do anything that might hurt you

[cloud flint]

no you educate, mentor, and teach

if you don't explain something to someone wtf do you expect

[sturdy lake]

it's been a while but i think God does lay out what happens with eating the fruit, no?

[cloud flint]

depends on the incarnation

[sturdy lake]

were u referring to fruit in the garden of eden?

[cloud flint]

yh

its been a while

[sturdy lake]

are u talking about the God in the hebrew and christian scriptures?

[cloud flint]

but I'm pretty sure he leaves it to their faith and satan leads them astray

christian scriptures

ones I studied a while ago

[sturdy lake]

mb, i meant jewish* not hebrew

ok so in that incarnation, God does lay out what happens with the fruit. and the rest of the scriptures describes God trying to educate, mentor, and teach people right? There are mistakes and consequences but generally we see a pattern of trying to guide?

[cloud flint]

I belive god didn't adequatly provide justification. The justification is circular, and the fruit isn't based on any real mechanisim if I'm correct. God just says this is how things work and you better follow my rules.

[sturdy lake]

Justification for the consequences of eating the fruit right? is that what u mean

[cloud flint]

justification for the entire system in place. I belive society is here to benefit us, rules, regulations, and systems meant to benefit the individual. God made a paradise with the one caveat that if you did a specific action, you got kicked out. How does that benefit adam and eve in any way?

[sturdy lake]

good question, i have thought a teeny bit and have some general ideas

[sullen comet]

last part doesn't make sense otherwise there would be consequences for not following his "rules"

[cloud flint]

I don't understand, do you mean for not following his rules? the consequence was that they got kicked out

[sullen comet]

oh whoops, i didn't read context

my apologies

[cloud flint]

lays all dressed is the ultimate sin

[sullen comet]

they got kicked out because he couldn't just let sin wander his place. if he let them there, the demons would be wandering his place as well

[cloud flint]

did he expain that? I don't remember but I don't think he did. all he had to tell the two was "if you do this, you break my rules and that allows sin to enter this paradise, and I would need to make you leave. There are forces at play trying to make you do this, and in order to maintain this paradise we need to all work together and follow this one directive"

[fresh grail]

Didn't he replace god in the series finale?

[cloud flint]

SPOILERS

[fresh grail]

The show ended 3 years ago

[celest bridge]

What if I don't have a bed?

[fresh grail]

Statute of limitations for spoilers

[cloud flint]

ok this is flying over my head

pls explain

[fresh grail]

https://www.google.com/search?q=lucifer&oq=lucifer&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[cloud flint]

OHHH I watched that ages ago

the writing was pretty good for the beginning

idr the rest of it

[celest bridge]

Like, from the bible? Cause if yes then yeah, he is indeed the bad guy cause if we're believing that part of the bible then I feel like we have to also believe quite a bit of the other parts of the bible like where the devil is trying to stop the plan of salvation and whatnot.

[stone osprey]

I'll build you one

[celest bridge]

Maybe you can argue that the original act was maybe like, a human level mistake thus not really qualifying as a modern day "bad guy" but he's definitely not a good person throughout the rest of it.

[celest bridge]

But then there will be monsters under it.

[fresh grail]

Everything is kind of a choice, but a lot of times your hand is forced

[stone osprey]

unfortunate

[ornate hazel]

Maybe

Maybe not at the same time

Life is a contradiction within itself

[ornate hazel]

That's still a choice

You choosing a choice

[sullen comet]

buh

[sullen comet]

elaborate?

[fresh grail]

Yeah but previous choices limit what you can choose, like if you choose not to buy a house and then the world explodes, you can't buy a house

[sullen comet]

to what extent would you could call someone who's "sophisicated"?

[wanton lava]

its relative

so it depends

[sullen comet]

hmm how about table manners, conversational manners, greeting manners, etc?

[wanton lava]

still relative ish

[sullen comet]

hmm how about when you first just met someone

you barely know the other person

[wanton lava]

everythings a game

so whats their level

if you don't know its relative to you

if you do know then its relative to their rank

[sturdy lake]

if someone calls themself sophisticated i am not taking that person seriously

[celest bridge]

I'm very sophisticated.

[ancient wharf]

I am very me

[ornate hazel]

Life is full of contradictions because it’s all opposites at once like, we’re born just to die, and while we’re here, we’re caught between happiness and pain, freedom and limits. We chase something permanent in a world that’s always changing, and we look for meaning in a universe that might not care. Love could connect us, but we’re all still stuck in our own heads. It’s messy but that’s what makes it real, forcing us to grow and figure things out in all the chaos

[ornate hazel]

Sure, but that’s just life. Your past choices shape your options, but it’s still you making the decision each time. You can’t dodge the fact that you’re the one choosing, even if the options suck

[sullen comet]

ooo i love the way you explained that

[ornate hazel]

Hehe ty

[broken quartz]

I like that the future light cone flares open again. Even if a specific event gets more and more likely to happen in a certain way as we approach it, the distant futures are not constrained by that event as much as we sometimes think.

[ornate hazel]

"It is an absurdity to believe that the Deity has human passions, and one of the lowest human passions, a restless appetite for applause." -David Hurne

What do you guys think of it

[sullen comet]

<@&1305977291695718462>

[cloud flint]

No and this is why I don’t think a god exists

We can’t prescribe human morals onto a diety

Otherwise it wouldn’t be perfect

As human morals are never perfect

And if we can’t prescribe human morals to a diety

Yeah

[sturdy lake]

I think if a deity possesses understanding beyond what humans can comprehend (as they often are described) then any passions the deity has may be tough for us to rationalize. It is fair to both trust the one who can understand deity things (the deity, assuming they exist), and critique them like the quote does.

It might be similar to how a 10 yr old might think their parents are controlling for not letting them stay out in the park after dark, but they don’t have the same knowledge their parents do. It is fair for the kid to both trust the parent while also questioning the decision.

[hasty rain]

good explanation

[hasty rain]

no way I just left and now we have an official philosopher here 💀

[dense bane]

True

[ornate hazel]

hmm

[ornate hazel]

Fair point, but lemme play devils advocate for that. soo If we can’t prescribe human morals to a deity, how do we even conceptualize or relate to it at all? Any claim of perfection is ofc inherently a human idea - perfection, as we define it, is a moral construct. So if human morals didnt apply, on what basis do we judge this deity’s actions or existence? Without sowme kin d of overlap, isn’t it just an unknowable abstraction rather than something thats acc meaningful?

[sullen comet]

@hasty rain

[ornate hazel]

hmmmmmmm, but here’s the thing. if a god’s passions or reasons are way beyond what we can get, then trusting or critiquing them is kind of pointless, yeah? Like, the 10-year-old trusts their parents because they’ve seen them make good choices before, but with a god, we’ve got no real proof or track record to go off. So if we can’t ever understand their reasons, how do we even know if they’re wise or just messing with us? Feels like questioning is a dead end if the answers are always out of reaach

[ornate hazel]

A flaw with that point is that just because we can’t fully understand something doesn’t mean trusting it is blind faith. kinda like gravity we don’t fully get it, but sure it’s consistent enough to trust. Maybe a god’s wisdom is the same, might be beyond us but still reliable

but yeah idk

[sullen comet]

i mean that’s what faith is - to trust blindly. there’s proof of a higher being but there’s no proof of which religion’s God is the real God or if there’s even a god that’s real within a religion. but as far as religion goes, you can see how most religion see their God as wise and the one who knows above all. but if you look at greek gods, they’re flawed like humans and they let their emotions control them. what defines a god? is god just a human but is immortal and have powers that no human can have or is god a being we can’t explain or even think to imagine (aka a perfect “human”)?

[cloud flint]

We don’t have any other way to judge a deities actions. So if a diety exists we can’t relate to it in any way, its just something that exists that we can’t control or do whatever with

Idk

[celest bridge]

God doesn't have a solid definition imo. I feel like what 'defines' a god has more to do with humans view of them.

Cause it's impossible for us to know if a being is all powerful so we can't define it as that and in so many mythologies the gods have normal weaknesses.

[hasty rain]

Interesting

!philosophy

[sturdy lake]

yup exactly. That’s why it’s fair to do either or both, we can’t know for sure.

[outer spindle]

What's the definition of a sandwich

[ancient wharf]

Anything between two pieces of bread

By anything, i mean food

[sturdy lake]

what about hotdog

[ancient wharf]

Do you mean the glizzy or the glizzy in bread

[sturdy lake]

in bread

[ancient wharf]

Yeah glizzy in a long bread

Hotdog

https://tenor.com/view/bread-dog-transform-shapeshift-how-gif-17171064

Like u gotta get 2 pieces of this bread

Add the glizzy in between with ur preferred sauces

Im a professional food philosopher guys hmu

[cloud flint]

<@&1305977291695718462>

Opinions

[stone osprey]

real

and goes hard

[burnt tartan]

Hard

[stone osprey]

relatable

[sullen comet]

LOL

[sturdy lake]

Hard

[ancient wharf]

Very hard

Rock solid

[sturdy lake]

steel

even

[ancient wharf]

Obsidian bro

Bedrock

[ornate hazel]

This makes me hard

Wait

What

[stone osprey]

I'm harder than bedrock

[ancient wharf]

you never know if im harder

[stone osprey]

hm

[sturdy lake]

https://tenor.com/view/the-rock-gif-23501265

girls cannot get hard 🤓☝️

[sullen comet]

💀

what is this chat

[ancient wharf]

U cant always get philosophical with serious matters

U need some goofy things

[ancient wharf]

For example, this

In my opinion its a skill issue

This goes out for all the females

Skill issue yall can't get hard

[sullen comet]

💀

anyway

[cloud flint]

Its hard

[cloud flint]

🗣️🗣️🗣️

[stone osprey]

lol

[hasty rain]

Rock hard

[hasty rain]

Real 🗣️🔥💯

[hasty rain]

Ya’ll can’t get hard ahh chat

[ancient wharf]

Inferior girls

[sturdy lake]

what is love

[celest bridge]

Baby don't hurt me.

[ancient wharf]

Dont hurt me

[sturdy lake]

boooo

🍅🍅🍅🍅💥💥💥

[ancient wharf]

Nooo u destroyed it

[fresh grail]

What makes something funny?

[ancient wharf]

Something funny

Something that makes you laugh or smile

[gusty ermine]

Good question, I would say delivery

cuz some might say it's the unexpectedness of the joke but sometimes obvious jokes are also pretty funny because they get delivered right

unexpected twists are still funny tho

that 3 time technique, it works all the time

but timing and delivery above all technique

comedy is the ultimate artform, change my mind

[celest bridge]

Games are the ultimate art form as it essentially compacts so many other art forms within.

[hasty rain]

No more

[gusty ermine]

fair, my mind has been changed

actually no

comedy can be done anywhere at anytime

games can't be

checkmate gamer

[ancient wharf]

(i forgot the next lyrics)

[hasty rain]

What is love?

[ancient wharf]

Baby dont hurt me

[hasty rain]

Don’t hurt me

[ancient wharf]

No more

[hasty rain]

What is love?

[ancient wharf]

Baby don't hurt me

[hasty rain]

Don’t hurt me

[ancient wharf]

No more (Ok we might need to stop the philosophers will get angry)

[hasty rain]

I am a philosopher, but I am not mad

[ancient wharf]

Oh yeah me too

I am a philosopher

[hasty rain]

https://tenor.com/view/mujikcboro-seriymujik-gif-24361533

[burnt tartan]

Pencil/pen to paper/screen is the ultimate artform

It's the basis for many other artforms

And one of the oldest and one of the most influential

Once the animation perk was unlocked with more than one paper, so joeover

[gusty ermine]

pen to paper as in paintings or writings? Because writings include comedy and just like paintings, comedy and sarcasm have long been used to bring forth the ills of society and enlighten and influence the masses, even today, comedians make jokes about real issues in society all the time

and again, comedy can be done anywhere at anytime without any equipment

[hasty rain]

@gusty ermine I found it 😈

[gusty ermine]

that's completely different from what you said, bruv

[hasty rain]

nuh uh

[gusty ermine]

yuh uh, you said I accidentally slept with people or something 💀

[hasty rain]

💀

then that is real

I just gotta find that too

[gusty ermine]

go on

if you can't, you owe me $100 for psychological damages

[hasty rain]

what damage 😭

[gusty ermine]

false allegations causing me distress 😢

[hasty rain]

youre distressed that you have impeccable rizz?

[gusty ermine]

it's a lot of burden to carry 🥺

[hasty rain]

ok so uh

can you give me it

[gusty ermine]

i would if i had any

[hasty rain]

i thought u had

[hasty rain]

cuz why would people do this

[gusty ermine]

teenagers are weird

[hasty rain]

are you saying that to yourself too

[gusty ermine]

yes

[hasty rain]

ok

[gusty ermine]

cool

[stone osprey]

I'm weirder

[sullen comet]

you’re a teenager lol

[stone osprey]

nuh uh

I'm a planet

4.4 billion years old

[sullen comet]

oh right

you’re a great grandpa

[ornate hazel]

EVEN AFTER THE DARKEST NIGHTS THE SUN WILL RISE AGAIN

[sullen comet]

YES MA’AM

[stone osprey]

facts

[hasty rain]

HE LEFT

[ancient wharf]

No why did he leave

[hasty rain]

Idk

[sullen comet]

uhh

question

what makes a work of art beautiful?

[fresh grail]

If it's not ugly

[celest bridge]

The meaning behind it. Whether it be the meaning the artist intended or simply the meaning you gain from it.

[ornate hazel]

ECISTENCEEEE

NOOOO

WHYHY

[ornate hazel]

I would answe this but im now mourning over existences death 😭

[jade star]

Feels bad man

[ornate hazel]

[sullen comet]

aw :(

i’ll hug you

https://tenor.com/view/allex-ano-slay-zee-me-gif-11187196124230634497

[ancient wharf]

Anybody knows why he left

[jade star]

Maybe hes trynna focus on exams or life

[sullen comet]

probably

[jade star]

He sounded fine the last time he was here right?

If he wants to he will be back im sure

[sullen comet]

yes

[fresh grail]

Exams are for losers

I got a 58 on one

[ornate hazel]

Is money the abstract physical representation of hard work ? <@&1305977291695718462>

[cloud flint]

yeah

[ornate hazel]

Money can come from luck, inheritance, or exploitation, not just hard work though

Idk

[cloud flint]

hm

Well I guess money is more an abstract representation of value itself

money has no inherent value but there is a societal agreement that money has intrinsic value to make everyones lives easier

money as a medium for value allows us to do work without the hassle of needing to barter or find other ways of compensation for our work

[ornate hazel]

Hmm

Yeah but

Money isn’t just a symbol of value, really, it’s more a system built to keep power in the hands of a few. Its worth isn’t real but forced on us, helping the rich while keeping others struggling

[ornate hazel]

We use it not because it’s better, but because other ways are shut down

Would removing currency, benefit the world?

[cloud flint]

I'm saying purly in a vacume. You're completley correct the system we use currently is abused by a select few, but that isn't justification to say the system as a whole has no value

[ornate hazel]

Eh well not a sort of

Purely in a what now

[cloud flint]

vaccume

idk

sucky thing

empty space

I can't spell

[ornate hazel]

Oh yeah

Vaccum

Idk

[cloud flint]

fr

but yeah

money is at worst a tool of the elite used to oppress the rest of the world, and at best a system where everyone can pursue their dreams without need of worrying about payment and arrangement.

[ornate hazel]

Even in a vaccuum, money still isn’t perfect because it creates a middle step between real needs and their solutions. Bartering or direct trade would be more honest since money only has value if everyone agrees, which i would say makes it fragile and unnecessary

[cloud flint]

value is already subjective, and money allows for a mutual agreement of somethings percieved value, leveling the playing field to a tanglble thing.

[ornate hazel]

Hmm

Money might seem like a tool for dreams, but even at its best, it ties value to productivity, forcing people to prove their worth instead of just living freely and At its worst, it keeps power locked with those who already have it, making true equality impossible j

[cloud flint]

what determines productivity

[ornate hazel]

Productitviy is usually about how much you can get done or create, but what really counts as “productive” depends on what people value. Some things, like art or helping others they don’t always get the credit they deserve

[cloud flint]

totally agree

in an ideal world the value of art and things that are undervalued get the value they deserve

[ornate hazel]

Is jasnah pronounced as yasnah

Hm

[cloud flint]

yasnah

[ornate hazel]

Ew

Anyways

[ornate hazel]

In an ideal world

Do you think an ideal world would ever become reality

[cloud flint]

strive for perfection

I think yeah

with ai and shit

we don't really have a need for any work that people don't like

people are free to pursue what they actually want to do

now we just gotta make it so the system we use reflects that

easier said than done, but I think we can do it

[ornate hazel]

I don't think this system actually allows for people to do that

"Shi work this 9 to 5 like a good boy"

[sturdy lake]

it can represent someone else's work 😔

if u inherit it, u inherited their work

[cloud flint]

thats what is usually does lmao

[cloud flint]

well ideally

I keep mixing them up lmao

[ornate hazel]

Not really cause at the base of it all, money comes off a printer

[cloud flint]

the only obstical now is getting society to reflect true equality and freedom

[sturdy lake]

u were asking what it represent right

[cloud flint]

yeah

[ornate hazel]

Impossible

Why do drug addicts and thieves thrive in this modern world

[cloud flint]

thrive is an interesting take

[ornate hazel]

I wouldn't say so

[cloud flint]

they exist and there are a ton of them

I don't think their quality of life is great though

like

democracy is great

we just gotta make information and ethics accessible to all

and leave behind our arrogance and pride

working towards greatness isn't particularly hard, it just takes time

[ornate hazel]

Hmm

Greed of man allows this to never happen

[cloud flint]

cooperating is the best thing to do if your greedy

mutual benefit for all gives everyone more stuff

[ornate hazel]

Gives the higher ups less stuff

[cloud flint]

you kinda shoot yourself in the foot otherwise

[ornate hazel]

That's why it will never happen

It's a cool concept though

[cloud flint]

only to the point where the alternative is losing less money

once we get to a point where giving money away is preferable to sociatal collapse, which I think is close there will be much more change in the world

like

we can teach and grow

democracy is our means to a better world

we need more education and guidance

and likeminded people to join the goverment

that's how real change is made

[ornate hazel]

Nathan for president 🔥

[cloud flint]

its slow and we don't see results for a while, maybe not in our lifetimes, but we will see it eventually

[ornate hazel]

Yeah I completely agree

The school system is fucked tho

[cloud flint]

the main problem is people don't want to listen. People are arrogant and their first reaction to other viewpoints is "how dare you think this way and not understand my perspective"

we need to take more time to listen

and to rationalize and grow our perspectives on governance and society

that takes humility

[ornate hazel]

So do you think this can become a reality

[cloud flint]

yeah

[ornate hazel]

Wait gimme a sec

[cloud flint]

50/50 in my lifetime, I think its garunteed in the future

like

I'm about as "horrible" by normal standards as you can get as a person

I don't feel empathy

but like I taught it to myself

[burnt tartan]

What's the question

[cloud flint]

like if someone as sucky as me can learn to sacrifice for the mutual benefit of humankind I think we all eventually can

[cloud flint]

Here @burnt tartan

[burnt tartan]

Not really

[cloud flint]

yeah thats what we ended up agreeing on

I'd love to stick around but I'm tired af and gotta do somemore errands so Imma bounce

[burnt tartan]

Money comes from how useful/entertaining your skills are to someone ultimately, I think

Other things like finess and luck play a part as well

[cloud flint]

cya team

[ornate hazel]

I don't think so

[ornate hazel]

Ahh alr

[ornate hazel]

People have always been set in their ways, and that hasn’t really changed over time, Even if some people start listening and trying to understand others, there will always be groups who won’t cooperate or are too focused on power and greed. Changing how society thinks and acts is a really big task, and it would probably take many generations, not just one singke lifetime. It’s a great goal nonetheless but it’s not as simple as just saying "be humble and listen"

[cloud flint]

It's about perspective. I mean sure, from some viewpoints you can say humanity has not progressed from a ethical or social standpoint but I think that ignores all of the development we have had already. The western world is based on and fights for the ideals of freedom, equality, and self expression. Sure, we haven't fixed most problems in the world and our ideals are flawed, but we've made a platform for growth and change. The US eliminated slavery, gave women the right to vote, and gave gay people rights in less than a hundred years. Sure, you could say stuff is regressing but that ignores what we've already done.

now I actually gtg 😅

[wanton lava]

aesthetically pleasing

[burnt tartan]

if it dont piss me off

[outer spindle]

Why

[sullen comet]

what kind of art makes you angry tho?

[paper trellis]

not really

money can be earned illegally, inherited etc

also some people who work very hard arent always rich

lets say elon musk works 12 hours a day and a random mcdonalds worker does

both of them work hard in their respective jobs

[ornate hazel]

I completely agree

Hmm

If money were to be abolished would it have a positive impact on humanity? <@&1305977291695718462>

[sullen comet]

if money didn’t exist, trade would still exist

before we used money, we traded

so yes

imo

you still get stuff for stuff so it’s a fair trade tbh

[ornate hazel]

Oh yeahh

I'm interested to see what a person who disagrees would say lmao

[sullen comet]

probably would be a weak argument lol

[ornate hazel]

" Without money, societies would likely revert to a barter system, which is inherently inefficient. It requires a "double coincidence of wants"—both parties must have what the other wants and agree on the trade's value. This would make trade cumbersome, slow, and limited in scale."

That's what some guy on reddit said lol

[burnt tartan]

I could try and argue that it wouldn't in modern society. A lot of people wouldn't be able to fit into that trading lifestyle as a lot of people lack the skills needed to create anything of use to actually trade. Money is a thing of modern ages, so the dissapearance of it would mess up something. Some people may end up worse off, poor and needy

Eh, I wouldn't say modern tbh, currency existed for a while along with people

[rustic dragon]

It might help curb greed because you can only horde so many sheep, but then you already had gold and silver. :)

I think a temporary ban could be good for people to re-learn how to work together and how people did things in the past, like as a learning experience.

(Ok maybe not ban, but "living history days" or something xD

[burnt tartan]

Like a more taken seriously 'earth day' !

Everyone homestead for a week lmao

[rustic dragon]

Yeah! It would be so fun and chaotic xD

[burnt tartan]

I want 35 raspberries
Give me 15 cabbages and you got yourself a deal

[rustic dragon]

There is actually a country that offered a sponsorship for every family to get three chickens, and with the kitchen scraps and lack of egg cartons being bought, their landfill waste went down a lot

(Not everyone wanted them of course)

[burnt tartan]

Makes sense

Pretty cool

[rustic dragon]

How about cranberry sauce? I also have blackberries

[burnt tartan]

Oo

A cup of cranberry sauce and 10 blackberries!

[rustic dragon]

Perfect!

[burnt tartan]

passes 15 cabbages

xd

[rustic dragon]

passes cranberry sauce and blackberries

I have trouble growing cabbages so that was perfect xD

[burnt tartan]

Haha xd yippie!

[cloud flint]

I think this is more of a broad generalization of human greed as a whole

It’s easier to belive “x causes y” therefore we need to eliminate x, but in reality its much more complicated

I think eliminating money would make the economy worse tbf

Bc then there is no standard for value and monopolies can charge whatever they want

[sullen comet]

LOL

the mini roleplay xp

[rustic dragon]

"The love of money is a root for all kinds of evil" - but you can just input greed there. Often people say "Money is the root of all evil," but it's both a misquotation and not even true xD

[burnt tartan]

If money is evil then I'm the devil

[rustic dragon]

You are... money?

[burnt tartan]

Er... I think I meant to say I'm bad

Cuz

Money = evil

For some

And I like money

So I bad

[rustic dragon]

Ahh

So "if the love of money is evil, then you are the devil"

Actually that would be a really cool line about a greedy character in a show 0.0

Ankles casually being brilliant

[sullen comet]

lol

[stone osprey]

no, with no common currency the value of items becomes subjective and only small trades are possible. You also can't digitally trade currency if money is abolished so all imports and exports would stop or slow dramatically. You also couldn't do online shopping anymore because there's no mediation or regulation for the value of items anymore

if money was abolished society would no longer function as it is

[stone osprey]

exactly

random reddit guy is right

if we didn't need currency we wouldn't have it lol

[rustic dragon]

True - which assumes modern society has a positive impact on humanity. (Not saying it doesn't - I do like the convenience of online shopping at times xD )

[stone osprey]

yeah

[cloud flint]

School lunchroom

I’ll trade you half my sandwich for your snickers bar

[cloud flint]

Modern society is heavily underrated, even though it has its flaws

It’s amazing what humans have achieved

Like, we can fly

[stone osprey]

valid

[cloud flint]

Like holy moly we can go to space

Shit thats crazy

We have problems but we can do what we do best and persevere through them

[stone osprey]

fr

[wanton lava]

not yet, I feel if AI could take over 95% of jobs then communism makes sense

money still would make sense

[fresh grail]

Probably not just because if we get rid of money then yes people can trade and all that but it's just less convenient to make trades using whatever we have with us

I'd rather carry paper that has value than carry around a bunch of sheep with me if I want to get an uber

[rustic dragon]

very true 👀

[cloud flint]

<@&1305977291695718462> Should you lie to your children?

[sullen comet]

no

why? you just teaching them it's not wrong to lie

[cloud flint]

I agree

but theres a bunch of fringe situations eh?

like

do I tell them there isn't a 300 pound fat man that eats cookies and gives them presents

or rabbits don't lay chocolate eggs

[celest bridge]

Imo no. How my parents did it was basically just by telling us that it was a fun tradition to pretend that santa is real. We still had the same stuff but they just told us that it was fake.

[burnt tartan]

I think in those instances it's fine. Believing in Santa is fun and harmless

If the kid grows up all edgy n shit, skill issue on their part

Elf on the shelf? Harmless fun

[cloud flint]

isn't it bad to tie good deeds to physical rewards?

[burnt tartan]

No, isn't that how things typically go? You do good and then you get rewarded

It's not like you give gifts every time someone does something good

It's Christmas

Nothing really that complicated. If you raising a hell raiser, then atp gifts is the least of your worries

[cloud flint]

I don't think good actions should be tied to any reward. The rewards you usually get do exist, but to me at least I don't feel comfortable with teaching people that good deeds should only be done for rewards.

[cloud flint]

yeah its not that deep I guess

[burnt tartan]

Who said that's gotta be the lesson?

It's just nice to give and receive gifts sometimes

A on report card? You worked hard! Have a reward, type shi

[cloud flint]

its "make sure your on the nice list or you get coal" no?

[cloud flint]

ofc but I feel like its important to teach kids to enjoy the journey not do things for the destination

I found happiness when I stopped chasing the reward and started pursuing something I was acutally passionate in

[burnt tartan]

I think so, still pretty harmless tbh

[cloud flint]

yeah

[burnt tartan]

Well we talking about little kids here, not really goal chasers

Kids goals be beat final boss, get an A, and do good in hobby

[cloud flint]

maybe I'm just a hardass but life is short and I think children should be encouraged to grow up and do the stuff they want

maybe I'm not far enough from actually being a child, but to me irrisponsibility and the suite of things associated with childhood to me far outweights the benefits

[burnt tartan]

Is this still in relations to Xmas gifts or you js talking your thoughts

[cloud flint]

christmas gifts, I think it sets a notion for children that they should be good to get toys at the end of the year

the responsibility of being a decent person is external, not internal

[burnt tartan]

Well I'm surely not getting no bad child a toy

[burnt tartan]

Kids aren't dumb, they'll understand the concept even without toys

[cloud flint]

I can see that

[burnt tartan]

If a dog can be trained to sit, roll, stay, and be socially good without treats, then kids can too

Treats may be introduced

But they aren't present always

[cloud flint]

yeah that makes sense

[burnt tartan]

Ye ye, the 'values' or 'tricks' are taught to the pup, the bacon bits can still be given but it's not needed

Same for tiny human. Ain't even gotta be gifts, just simple stuff like "good job!" Is good. Then things like "you can have an extra ice cream bar" can come up

[cloud flint]

obv we should compliment good behaviour. always do that.

[burnt tartan]

Ofc ofc

Gift giving is positive! It truly depends on the person on how the kid acts around gifts

Spoiled brat? Obviously something went wrong

[cloud flint]

Maybe its just my school or whatever but the people that go to my school just don't have basic human decency

[burnt tartan]

But the gift itself does not raise bad or valueless people

[burnt tartan]

Yeah, that sucks

[cloud flint]

An assumption of a gift does that

I had a friend actually ask me

"Why should I help others if there is no benefit to me?"

[sturdy lake]

maybe temporarily but eventually explain the truth to them.
Like if the kid is 3 and their dad went to jail and they're asking where their dad is.

[rustic dragon]

That's a tough one :(

[outer spindle]

Is prétend the same as lying

[rustic dragon]

Not if you're enjoying it as pretending (agreeing to agree that something false is true for the purposes of entertainment).

I think fiction and pretend can be very valuable to explore themes and concepts, and in learning.

Where it becomes dangerous is if you begin telling yourself that those things are reality, or even if you know they are false, choose to live in them as if they were the real world.

Pretending for pleasure vs living to pretend and escape all the time.

[wanton lava]

100%

in a lot of cases lying is amazing

not about fantasy though

[ornate hazel]

I'm so smart i can basically manipulate reality

😈

Erm whattesigma

[ancient wharf]

🤓☝️

[outer spindle]

What do you think les to squid game's success

[cloud flint]

unique premise with good story and execution

[cloud flint]

a unique premise only works when you have the other aspects of your story well done

otherwise it'll fall flat

[sullen comet]

hmm

i had a conversation about this in #🤬▸『』vent and i'm just curious what y'all think about it

basically

do you value animals to be as the equal to humankind? Why or why not? In your opinion, what tells who or what would be above whatever? <@&1305977291695718462>

[burnt tartan]

Certain animals, as I am inclined to love certain animals more than the other. This comes from a more biased take than any attempt to be unbiased or neutral. While I do think animal lives are important, and do not deserve any kind of abuse of any kind, I wouldn't hold a couple to be an equal to me. I respect the creature enough to leave it alone

Howwwever, since im a human, I can judge other humans and determine if who they are or actions is beneath other animals. I'd treat a generally bad person with less respect than a wild dog. Mostly because I can't base anything from the dog or judge it like I can with a mf from Detroit or smth

[rustic dragon]

I would not consider them to be the equals of humankind, but neither are they a resource to be exploited. I believe they are to be, as you said, treated well, not abused, and those used for food/etc should be done humanely and not wastefully.

(As for the reason, besides common sense in what abusing weak beings says about a person or could grow in a person, this comes largely from what I believe about God. There is a verse in the Bible that specifically says [semi-paraphrase] "The man who does right cares for the life of his animal." )

[hasty rain]

My answer is the same as minstrels

[stone osprey]

I was too lazy to type it myself on my phone

but yeah

exactly what you said

[wanton lava]

luck

[wanton lava]

no, but still important

[patent veldt]

Equal? No. However, for the vast majority of people in the western world, we have no reason to kill animals. In cases of true necessity, it’s justified, but in general, we have other food sources that don’t necessitate enslaving sentient beings.

[rustic dragon]

xD
Fun to know we agree :>

[cloud flint]

It’s up to the individual to draw the arbitrary line between where a collection of molecules becomes an individual that deserves rights and autonomy

Personally my value of an animal is based on intelligence and how far removed they are from humans

[reef star]

<@&1305977291695718462>

[stone osprey]

A lot of people think that it'd be really difficult to cause mass mayhem. Like you'd have to plant a bomb, or be a genius hacker, or some extreme like that

it's much easier than you think to take down more than 90% of a country

by yourself

as long as you know what you're doing

And I will not elaborate further

[stone osprey]

and where you need to go

there are a few vital spots that lack adequate protection from certain things

my dad and I have looked into it a bit too extensively

it's more of a truth that very few people know about though

guess I'll have to think of something else

[stone osprey]

oh, unlimited energy is infact possible

lots of people know about the concept

few know it's already been achieved

nuclear fusion reactor babyyy

[sullen comet]

LOL

imagine

[cloud flint]

We should do more “victim blaming”

Most often the only way out is forward

TW suicide ||Ngl I’d probably be dead if life haden’t forced me to grow up😓||

Wounds need time to heal but usually we don’t have the luxury to let them

Life is short and we need to make the most of it

Nobody is inherently responsible for trauma and pain, but someone needs to take responsibility for it nonetheless.

And the only person I think you should trust is yourself with that kind of responsibility

[sullen comet]

it's possible to have a relationship where you don't ever did argue. the thing where people say "a real relationship is one where you had arguments before" shouldn't be true because of the fact that disagreement doesn't always have to lead to an argument but with ears and patience, it's a whole lot easier to clean out that mess

[cloud flint]

I think thats theoretically true but humans are messy and even if you have equal respect and listen to each other sometimes miscommunications happen

[stone osprey]

I'd never get in an argument or fight with my gf tbh

it's not possible with how we both are

[sullen comet]

i disagree. as someone who used to be a manipulative attention seeking liar, when i realized how bad of a person i was, it only made me hate myself so much more than i already did. if someone was to blame me for something, i would gladly admit it and not even be angry or offended by it. i really wanted to change myself so i did but it didn't help with the self hatred, i had no reason to give compassion to myself because of the fact that i hurt so many people and ghosted them like it was nothing. and i hated myself even more because of the fact that i felt nothing towards them when i did all those things. i hated that i didn't feel sympathy for them. it took me a long time to heal and i'm still healing cause man, i was crazyyy

but anywayy

[stone osprey]

it's okay <3

[sullen comet]

i've seen a few elderly couples who never fought\

quite beautiful to see

[sullen comet]

thank you :3

[patent veldt]

In what way is fusion infinite energy?

[stone osprey]

the test results are publicly available

[patent veldt]

no I know all about it, I'm asking how it's infinite energy?

[stone osprey]

helion achieved a 200% yield on their first official test

[cloud flint]

I really doubt that but I can’t say your wrong, I just think with lots of elderly people time wears down grudges and arguments look like disagreements in hindsight

[cloud flint]

Ooo when?

[stone osprey]

getting more energy out than you put in

[patent veldt]

uhhhhhhhh

that's all energy sources

[stone osprey]

a year ago almost

[sullen comet]

it's possible to disagree and have a discussion about it instead of fighting about it lol

[stone osprey]

I'm talking about a net system energy gain

[patent veldt]

But nuclear fusion doesn't have a net system energy gain?

[stone osprey]

it does

[patent veldt]

Doesn't follow the first law of thermodynamics lol

[cloud flint]

Yh but humans are messy, and in a timespan of ~60 yrs something is bound to go wrong. Arguments happen, and I think thats a good thing. It tests the strength of your relationship

[patent veldt]

all energy sources produce more energy than they cost on the relative system of earth, otherwise we wouldn't have any energy systems

also though, if nuclear fusion produced infinite energy, stars would never die in any way other than as a black hole

[sullen comet]

hmm depends lol. my boyfriend and i are pretty patient people. i tend to shut down or choke when someone yells at me so i doubt we'd even get to that point considering how we've disagreed on a few things before

[stone osprey]

longer ago nvm

[patent veldt]

lol headlines don't mean anything

[stone osprey]

do you have any idea how many times our "laws" of the universe or physics have been broken?

[patent veldt]

LOL

[stone osprey]

blackholes alone broke more than 20 laws of physics when they were first discovered

a whole new branch of physics was made just for them

[patent veldt]

bro, 1st and 2nd law of thermo don't get broken

[patent veldt]

actually, they didn't break laws, what are you talking about?

[stone osprey]

look it up yourself ez pz