#What do you think about adding custom

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queen gate
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cough heal clause cough

tight chasm
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So like a healing version of mist?

honest pendant
hard shuttle
# queen gate *cough* heal clause *cough*

The point is not to limit / ban everything (which it already is). Instead we want to extend the options a player has. Therefore a heal clause is not up for debate right now

honest pendant
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honestly, anti-healing moves are too niche to be worth running even if we add a move that blocks it for 5 turns most of the time~~
The enemy can abuse the turn u click such move to attack u, or make a safe switch, and its not hard to force a rotation of mons that dont involve healing for a few turns~

Like Juliet said, limiting the amount of healing u can use in a match overal is a better answer, since that way you dont need to:

  • sacrifice a move slot for the move
  • find a way to safely setup such move
  • Try to get value from it
  • actually get an oponent with a healing focused team

We added heal block in the past and was a dead move on most mons, "anti-healing room" would be the same

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i dont mind adding exclusive PCG moves~~ but i dont think its the correct aproach to the "healing meta" 🤔

tight chasm
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What made ohko get banned?

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It's not like ppl were using mons with no guard and ohkos

queen gate
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and a whole team having all heals is limited? removing pp doesn't stop the fact that someone can still heal stall, by that logic we should of just removed the pp from ohkos instead of banning them in general, point of heal clause is to actually make a battle more fun instead of having a 40 minute battle

honest pendant
# tight chasm What made ohko get banned?

being harmfull to battles in a way different level:

  • It was too safe of a move to have in a free slot for any pokémon
  • Hard to counter even if you know the enemy has it
  • Add too much RNG to a competitive scene~~
    I remember seeing a togekiss in front of a pokémon that cant attack it, and i was forced to switch to my only counter hoping such togekiss would miss the ohKO otherwise it was an instant loss
tight chasm
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So healing is pcg version of hyper stall?

honest pendant
kind gyro
honest pendant
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there is a difference in knowing how to play agaisnt healing and healing being actually strong.
i do agree that healing is strong in PCG tho but its not gamebreaking, knowing how to play agaisnt it plays a huge part on it, but most people dont want long matches anyway~~

queen gate
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i think thats english xD

tight chasm
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Maybe introduce a heal cap at certain MMR? So you can't just run it to the top

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This is getting off topic tho

queen gate
honest pendant
tight chasm
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I'm fine with custom moves I just don't know about THIS particular custom move

hard shuttle
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Well, I am completely opposed to limiting and lowering everything until the entire meta is just smacking with the highest power mons. Stall strategies are very valid and important for the overall balance of the game. I get that it might not be the most fun to play against and thats why there simply need to be more tools against it

queen gate
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ohkos stop stall times if u ask me

kind gyro
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they also stop ohko teams, hyper offense teams, and whatever is in front if it procs. lets not devolve into this discussion again

honest pendant
hard shuttle
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Of course, since its custom we can change anything about it until it works for its purpose 😄

honest pendant
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i would be up to test battles agaisnt custom teams u make if u want as well @hard shuttle , since my team have 1 static healing but 4 draining ones~~
would be nice to test agaisnt Tom and Uncheerful as well and see how pratical it is agaisnt actuall flat healing teams

manic dew
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Why was it only the normal healing moves that got nerfed? I think limiting all healing moves to 3 is the better play rather create a custom move to stop all heals for 5 turns

tight chasm
honest pendant
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except for mono-types~~

tight chasm
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What made mandibuzz so crazy meta all of a sudden?

kind gyro
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it's just umbreon with wings and like the only defensive thing that took both of marshadows stabs

tight chasm
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Also what typing would this custom type move be?

manic dew
honest pendant
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my last commentary about the "anti-healing room" idea.
I cant see it being really pratical since u have to spend a full turn on somethign that may not generate value~~ For me, seems like it will be like playing a big stats guy with no imediate effect on a card game. You give your enemy momentum in exchange of something that may not generate anything in return

manic dew
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Like golisopod with shore up that’s annoying as well even if it had morning sun or recover

honest pendant
tight chasm
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It's best use would be if you knew what your opps healing Mon was you could switch in and cuck them

hard shuttle
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I dont get the point that its not worth to run counter measures if healing is such a big problem 🤔

honest pendant
tight chasm
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I think the issue isn't so much that there's healing but WHAT has healing

solid ingot
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Gen 9 does have a Psychic Move that deals damage and stops the target from healing while on the field. Could just add that in early or wait for it to officially release?

tight chasm
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While we are talking new moves, terrain moves when?

hard shuttle
manic dew
honest pendant
hard shuttle
solid ingot
hard shuttle
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Just because it doesnt deal damage doesnt mean no value

tight chasm
honest pendant
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this does change a lot the way i think about it ^

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since if its not eating a good move u could have there, and its on a free slot soo some mons could have it for free~~ tham its actually really strong

hard shuttle
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I think normal move would be the best option since heal is normal also 🤔

manic dew
tight chasm
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I find most healing teams I beat anyway cuz I can abuse the healing predict and let them waste it

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I would love custom moves tho

honest pendant
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i do feel liek it should be normal as well. but being too common might be way too strong as well tho~~ i do see value on the move specially on fast mons

tight chasm
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Maybe a steel type bullet seed? Just called sixshooter?

honest pendant
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but would u rather have anti-healing field or endevor on your dragapult~~

solid ingot
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Anti Healing kekw

manic dew
graceful falcon
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id say only if the move comes out in a tm, and is applicable to every type. not going to reroll any mon for a move that isnt guaranteed

queen gate
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^

honest pendant
honest pendant
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that move ona normal slot is actually pretty legit

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its an A-tier level of strong i think

graceful falcon
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and if thats not possible, then a heal clause is the only thing that would fix the current issue with the HEAL meta. its cringe and 9/10 people hate battling

hard shuttle
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Theres no heal tm either, if you can roll for heal why not roll for anti heal?

queen gate
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when the heal stallers start to disagree lmao

graceful falcon
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the only people that dont hate battling right now, are masochists, and the people doing the heal stall. any more than 2 healing mons makes the battle go for 30-45 minutes. and aint nobody got time for that

honest pendant
hard shuttle
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Sounds like idk something like an anti heal move could help?!

tight chasm
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What about a move that traps a pokemon AND blocks healing

queen gate
graceful falcon
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i mean, same concept with the ohkos. made that banned in ranked instead of an anti ohko move

manic dew
tight chasm
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Well it would counter heals, in a way

graceful falcon
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and its not even saying banning healing, just a clause to they cant bring more than 2 healing mons

hard shuttle
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Ohko is just by design a completely uncompetitve move, just doesnt belong in a ranked format

honest pendant
manic dew
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@graceful falcon would that be damaging healing moves too?

tight chasm
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And it can't be ferro or mandibuzz that have healing got it? Good the issue is resolved and will never come up again

graceful falcon
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they have that in scarlet and violet. big user of it is the moose legend (cant think of the name) but does fissure and stomping tantrum

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im saying just static healing cpayne

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synthesis, milk drink, morning sun type crap

tight chasm
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THE ONLY reason ting lu uses fissure is cuz ppl give it no guard

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I think

graceful falcon
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dont think thats possible

tight chasm
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It's like passing wonder guard, almost impossible but still done

graceful falcon
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but saying it is in ranked format in the main games, but cause of how the moves are generated in pcg people can get healing on everything

honest pendant
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its a way different format than PCG

kind gyro
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tbh dont ever try to compare singles to doubles at all if you want a real comparison

honest pendant
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fissure was used on ting lu to coutner dondozo+tatsugiri as well

tight chasm
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True, learnsets do make the Mon good or bad

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Don't compare pcg or pokemon or else intimidate Gary when

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Shoot ferro thorns having a recoil ability? sadnemite

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Maybe a move that adds healing for 10 turns might work, give the opp chance to forget?

graceful falcon
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i dont think a heal block move would be the answer. a heal clause would solve the problem for everyone not just afk streamers that have 100s of thousands of pcg bucks to roll for perfect sets

tight chasm
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Ok well just real quick do we want custom moves?

graceful falcon
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whats that move that drains the move pp from the opponent? if that was rollable for every mon that could be something

tight chasm
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Spite I think

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Or pressure?

graceful falcon
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yeah sounds about right

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pressure is an ability, spite was the move

kind gyro
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the one custom move i can get behind is a ground 55 power move or something so that if theres ever a ground tm it won't come with speed control lmao

honest pendant
# graceful falcon i dont think a heal block move would be the answer. a heal clause would solve th...

i am pretty in the middle of the road with this. since yeah, heal clause would solve the issue but also kill the playstyle (and even if most people dont like long matches or to face healing teams, at least i have fun trying to spend enemy healing, count numbers. abuse those healing turns,etc...)
But i do agree that Making a move related to that will be really strong for some, and will not make any impact for others~~

tight chasm
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How about a 55 base power ground move that can lower defense?

kind gyro
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thats op

tight chasm
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A little

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Like maybe 20%

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It just makes the ground move become like 80 power then IamDJKLul

honest pendant
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what about perish song? 👀

tight chasm
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To niche without trap

honest pendant
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kida op in specific movesets actually

tight chasm
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Oh wait

honest pendant
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yeha

queen gate
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gimmie explosion and ill handle all these stallers rq

tight chasm
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Perish song snap trap

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Yeah that's ohko ina. Nutshell

honest pendant
kind gyro
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perish song would be INSANE for heal stallers lol. it'd backfire so bad

honest pendant
kind gyro
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just imagine clamp perish song heal order pex

tight chasm
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Make explosion half ur physical def if u have heals

honest pendant
tight chasm
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I just wanna mess around with terrains

graceful falcon
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i think the idea of the suggestion is to nerf healing. any other moves that dont do that is just a little off topic o.o

honest pendant
kind gyro
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0 Atk Rampardos Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 110-129 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

honest pendant
kind gyro
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please give her explosion

tight chasm
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I wanna use moves that aren't boosting by sun or rain

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The terrains all boost their respective types and have side effects

honest pendant
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What about giving turn effect to heal-block?
Soo basically a heal-block like the useless one we had, but u also switch your mon? >:3

tight chasm
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Crippling bounceIamDJKLul

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So damageless u turn with heal block?

honest pendant
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but apply anti-healing

kind gyro
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that would be insane without the effect already wouldnt it

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specially if everything can roll it

tight chasm
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No damage so eh

kind gyro
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nobody runs uturn for the damage

tight chasm
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What makes u turn and flip turn so gud is nothing is immune

honest pendant
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^

tight chasm
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It's basically free chip with no drawbacks

graceful falcon
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i mean, if its not a tm that can be applied to everymon, its not going to fix the current problem -_-

honest pendant
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u could make some value by clicking when u expect your enemy to swap, soo u have a delayed swap and guarantee a counter in front of him... but thats about it

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smae as baton pass

tight chasm
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Ok if just the switching effect is so gud why don't ppl run blank baton pass teams?

kind gyro
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whats the current problem? 2 people running a bunch of heal mons? out of how many in the top ladder?

honest pendant
queen gate
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"2 people"

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lol

graceful falcon
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its much more than 2 people ed. its spread like wildfire

tight chasm
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I don't think it's just running healing but it might be WHO runs healing

kind gyro
honest pendant
kind gyro
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it was a genuine question

queen gate
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if u want me to start naming people i will lol

tight chasm
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Why does nobody battle anyway?

graceful falcon
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not here to call out any battlers in specific. but if you battle more than once a day you notice exactly how many people are running heal stall

tight chasm
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I've waited like 10 minutes in queue at 1400

honest pendant
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healing is a pretty powerful tool that extend the amount of times you can switch a mon into cheap damage~~ can force attrition battles... there is a lot of benefits in having healing in a mon

graceful falcon
honest pendant
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sometimes a random new name appears

kind gyro
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💀 maybe if they queue all day they should accept theyre going to face different playstyles

graceful falcon
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its all the same playstyle ed

kind gyro
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we cant just funnel the entire ranked scene into hyper offense

tight chasm
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I mean some play styles are better at times

graceful falcon
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75% of the players i run into on a daily basis have at leas 3 healing mons and they use every pp every time

honest pendant
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i jsut hate aggro playstile tho. since we dont have items and passives on PCG, without healing or draining its just aggro fiesta~~

tight chasm
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Healing and offensive are the main plays types right now, later on down the line it might be stall

honest pendant
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you cant have double switches, predictions, safe plays, strategies.... at least not in the same level

graceful falcon
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and its just a clause for limiting static heals to 2 mons. not talking about drain moves

honest pendant
kind gyro
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"safe" playstyles are always going to be prevalent in formats like current ranked where it's more of a grind rather than any other thing. lowering how much rng can affect a battle and using your pieces in a consistent manner is ALWAYS going to be a thing. the alternative is to delete that and make it a hyper offense fest where half the match is decided by the lead matchup.

honest pendant
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my team for example have only 1 static healing and 4 draining moves

honest pendant
tight chasm
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I like the idea of custom moves just not sure about this particular one

pale bluff
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we just aiming at cas hard lol

pure wolf
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holy shit, fuck nahh

sleek zephyr
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@pale bluff you just have less consistent teams it's whatever. Aggro fiesta is just less consistent, may as well have ohko back

manic dew
queen gate
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cas heals yes but we not targetting anyone lmao

dim dew
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This specific move aside, I think having the option to add custom moves is a very good idea

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It would probably make sense to independently vote on each custom move that's being considered

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There's probably a few weaker types that could benefit from some niche moves with special traits

manic dew
tight chasm
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Maybe some more physical psychic moves?

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Bug or grass could really help with sum custom moves, like fiery dance for fire types and power up punch for fighting types give grass sumthing like meteor mash with a chance to buff attack,

fast kestrel
# hard shuttle The point is not to limit / ban everything (which it already is). Instead we wan...

Here is the thing - There already are a bunch of options to counter especially static healing moves. Its just that nobody uses them. The most simple to get out even IS a field effect that lasts for 8 whole turns --> Rain Dance / Sandstorm / Hail. I dont know, maybe write a faq about how to handle static healing, but the ongoing complaints especially about static healing, which already got PP nerfed TWICE, start to get a bit annoying when those who complain dont even TRY to use the options there already are to handle those. There are a lot of other moves that need some balance adjustments, partly even BECAUSE static healing got nerfed already.

fast kestrel
fast kestrel
# dim dew There's probably a few weaker types that could benefit from some niche moves wit...

but why do we need custom moves for that if there are dozens of other actual moves that we dont even have in PCG yet. Like, your grass example, Gen 9 introduced Trail Blaze, which is just Grass type Flame Charge (physical, 50 power, buffs speed by 1 stage), and the biggest issue of most grass types simply is the fact that they are just too slow to outspeed all the meta stuff they'd like to hit first.

dim dew
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Naturally, I'm not opposed to those moves we don't have yet being added either, but I don't see a reason to turn down the future potential to add customs if needed

fast kestrel
fast kestrel
# dim dew Naturally, I'm not opposed to those moves we don't have yet being added either, ...

It would be abused. It would be sooo hard abused. Maybe not even knowingly, but where is this ultimately going? "Oh, I like this specific Pokemon, what kind of move would buff it?" / "Oh, I hate this guys team! What kind of move would let me cheese it completely?". And not sure if you saw that suggestion of a move that swaps the HP bar, but my immediate response was that I'd insta reset a Shuckle until I get that move on it. The risk of overlooking something that could abuse a custom effect to a point where its just not funny anymore is too big. And, again, especially if there are still dozens of other actual pokemon moves we didnt even talk about adding to PCG yet. Like, for example, the formerly mentioned ghost move Spite to insta emtpy 5 PP moves (reduces PP of opponents last move by 4) or galarian Slowkings version of it, Eerie Spell, which deals damage (Psychic type, special move, 80 power) and reduces the PP of opponents last move by 3.

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And also, for cases like special steel or physical psychic, which mainly suffer from a lack of chance to roll because they are overwhelmed by physical / special and status moves of their respective typing, just rerelease TMs like Mirror Shot or Psycho Cut. Not that to my knowledge, TM Psycho Cut changed ANYTHING about Psychic type usage 👀

dim dew
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Concerns about abusing the moves are reasonable, but the past chain of discussion gave me the impression that any move with potential to be added would be properly tested well in advance for balance purposes

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Adding currently existing moves that we don't have yet and adding custom moves don't seem to really impact each other

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A process of moves being tested by the devs and a few others in advance, and then individually polled on in the Discord should be more than sufficient to combat most issues here

fast kestrel
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Well, the missing moves might very well solve the "need" for custom moves anyway. And, lets say, somebody would randomly suggest what is basically Eerie Impulse, but without even knowing about the real Eerie Impulse. What typing do you think this suggestion would get? Psychic? Bet no! Would be either normal so "everything can use it" or a typing that is already meta.

dim dew
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A missing move could very well solve the problem in which case it could be added, but what if it does not? There remains no reason to not approve the potential for custom moves to maybe get added in the future; we're not really yet discussing any specific ideas

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If all individual ideas that end up being considered are busted or just dumb, then they could be voted no at that point

fast kestrel
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But, just because we say "Nope" to it for now and go through the existing, but missing ones first doesnt mean we couldnt reevaluate costum moves any time later. Saying "no" to it for now is just the way of "Using every single other option in our toolbox first before even considering custom moves".

dim dew
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That's technically true, but whether they are approved now or later is basically a semantic difference at that point, and there appears to be no precedent suggesting a previously declined idea will pop up again later

queen gate
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make healing 5 pp or the orginal pp again ( idk what it was ) but add heal clause

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win win

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xD

dim dew
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I think the question really just boils down to "do you have some form of idealistic preferance to keep PCG in line with the main games, yes or no"

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and if we all agree on that, then the poll should be restarted, since I assume some people who voted no were voting no to the specific example provided rather than the concept as a whole

fast kestrel
dim dew
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Only the devs would be providing suggestions still; there was never any indication that some public forum would be opened for everyone to suggest ideas

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I suppose some clarification there would be beneficial

queen gate
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i mean if were talking about moves being added how bout we also get a REAL move that can also probably solve the heal stall issue too and that being moves like stealth rock , toxic spikes , etc etc ( but i might be going off topic with this too )

dim dew
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Yeah, that would surely have to be a completely separate discussion

queen gate
modest pollen
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Entry hazards might get too op in pcg since in general its rare to have healing + good moves on a mon. And we dont have items or abilities that could negate or help with the effects of constant damage upon switching

fast kestrel
queen gate
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aii but those suck ass LMAO

fast kestrel
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they are up for 8 turns, turn most static healing into Life Dew, NOBODY uses Life Dew, and Sandstorm and especially Hail deal constant damage on top of that 😤

queen gate
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blitz the day u run rain dance life dew , my respect for u will go through the roof ... but ima stop spamming this thread now xD

fast kestrel
queen gate
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oh i completely read that wrong ... let me fix that ... the day you use life dew **

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there we go

fast kestrel
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Life Dew doesnt get a rain boost, if you thought so xD" But Life Dew heals 25%, which is not enough, and thus, nobody uses it, and Rain Dance turns Synthesis and friends into 25% heal move

dim dew
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It doesn't affect all of them though, moves like Slack Off are still 50%

fast kestrel
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I think literally the only 5 PP move that doesnt suffer from these and even benefits from Sandstorm is Shore Up.

dim dew
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Heal Order?

fast kestrel
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okay, Heal Order is neutral, too.

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What ISNT influenced by Rain Dance is Draining Moves and Pain Split, but those moves need a HEAVY PP nerf regardless.

queen gate
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no leave my parabolic alone :c pain split yes tho lol

fast kestrel
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TWENTY PP

honest pendant
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both parabolic and pain-split have way more PP than we need in a normal match ngl IamDJKLul

queen gate
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ive used all 20 parabolic onces lol

honest pendant
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there was countles matchess where having 20PP on parabolic won me the match tho

queen gate
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versus a healing umbreon xD

fast kestrel
honest pendant
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10PP would still be really good, but sometimes u would have to be more carefull with the PP uses

fast kestrel
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thats kinda what I was about to say, that even 10 PP is way too much

queen gate
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i mean in regualr pokemon games 20 is the norm.

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but this pcg so i get it

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lmao

honest pendant
queen gate
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i meannnn i did suggest to give healing thier normal pp back but then just add heal claussss xD

fast kestrel
# queen gate i mean in regualr pokemon games 20 is the norm.

but those are only 3 v 3 / 4 v 4 battles (much less room to hit and run) and mainly made for normal playthroughs to not have to constantly run to a center after one trainer battle. Also, Parabolic is, like, Pika clones only? And NOT made to be run on Rotoms and Magnezones? xD"

honest pendant
queen gate
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ill just flinch it

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like i did last match

honest pendant
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i know

queen gate
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duh

honest pendant
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damn, and i even predicted u staying there and clicked nuzzle ;-;

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recently i asked for a change in Thunder Wave description to add "this move doesnt affect ground-type pokémon" or something. but the verdict was "its better to keep things like in the original game", kinda surprised with the "add custom moves" suddenly

honest pendant
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was taking some time digesting the suggestion here... and the more i think about adding new moves to PCG, the less i like it tbh.
Like contagi said, there will need a lot of money to roll new sets/find those moves. and old pokémon i spent a lot of time rolling will slowlly get "outdated" as better moves are being launched and more counterplay measures are added~~
Its similar to the idea of changing coverages~ i didnt bough Zeraora since mono-electric is not a great investiment, and there is other good mons i could spend my time and effort instead. but if electric coverage is changed suddenly i lost a great mon, mons i invested might now be weaker due to the presence of new zeraora, etc....

silent prairie
# hard shuttle Thats just heal block again which is still terrible, even if it does damage sadl...

but it is totally different, ok heal-block you can just switch out but here, you can both block opponent at 55% from healing, but you deal extra damage (if not dark type) he is now at 50%, which might change everything the next time the pokemon wants to come to counter yours, because best healing users are slow, and counter often fast pokemons. I mean it would be great to add this move for this specific case of heal problems.
I see it like a volt switch of a faster pokemon than opponent, ok it similar to just swtich in (a lot stronger ofc because opponent might change poke) but you just get free bonus damage with the effect you want (if ground poke, you don't have any dmg or effect, just like dark for psychic).
The point is not to have the move, but multiplying the possibilities for countering. I mean i prefer to have that 9g move than a regular psybeam on coverage.

silent prairie
silent prairie
# fast kestrel TWENTY PP

you never use all that, most of the time when a poke spam pain split, it is less than 5 moves, so i don't really think there is a problem with that. BUT draining moves on the other hand might totally get spammed.

lavish plinth
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Add a Heal Block effect to every trap move in the game, Wrap and Bind included, and call it a day IamDJKLul (actually not joking, we can go back on it if we dont like it)

silent prairie
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since you can do the move and heal yourself on the side XD

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and someone did bring that up already ^^

lavish plinth
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You're not gonna stay in and heal against whatever the opponent switches into after you switch in your Wrap-mon. And it only punishes heal teams. If you want to waste 5 Heal Order PP while Wrap chips me for half of my health, be my guest IamDJKLul not joking

silent prairie
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i mean, you get rid of stall heal poke, but chips cannot handle it either

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wait i lost myself

lavish plinth
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Seriously.....
If that is something to be worried about, why isnt everybody already talking how BRUTALLY OVERPOWERED Wrap + Heal order combos are ?

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I'm not worried about that combo at all. And I dont use any healers on my team so I'm not even effected by the added Heal Block effect I proposed.

silent prairie
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leech seed + wrap ferrothorn, welcome to hell

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idunno

lavish plinth
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Your arguments doesnt attack the Heal Block effect at all. Just that Wrap is strong with self-healing.

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So just add the Heal Block effect and 95% of all cases will be the same as today.

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It should make damaging draining moves less viable so maybe 80%.

silent prairie
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yeah i am prbably worng here, but i still believe i prefer not having "custom" moves but official game moves, not for the particular healing part, but in general

lavish plinth
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Part of the reason I want it added to all these existing moves is so people wont have to wait several months to get Pokemon with the moves.

silent prairie
celest garden
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If there is a field for healing, there should be a field to replace it like attack & spatk combined to be reduced by 50% overrall and no crits

lavish plinth
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Reflect / Light Screen isnt good enough ?

silent prairie
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too niche without the 8 round object, hard to have both on the same poke too

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but thanks there is not aurora veil XD

celest garden
#

And a field effect to make moves a 100% hit chance

lavish plinth
#

Zap Cannon Inferno galore

celest garden
#

Feels fair

#

If a field with no healing then we should make more fields

silent prairie
#

add official game fields move 😄 electric, psychic, grass and fairy 😄

lavish plinth
#

Heal Block effect on Trap moves won't be ridiculously effective against an opponent that is switching - healing - switching - attacking without staying in more than one round. Your Trap move will likely hit for low damage on something your opponent switched in to counter your Pokemon, so you cant stay in safely to keep the Trap effect going. You probably need to use the Trap several times before you can finish the opponent off. The opponent could win the damage trades on the switches before that happens. So it's not auto-win vs a healing team.

#

And if you dont have Trap/HealBlock moves on all your Pokemon, if the healers has a great matchup with and want to switch in on your non-Trap Pokemon you cant really Heal Block them. Quite large weaknesses.

shy wagon
#

I’m against adding custom moves in pcg even if just for the reason it would make it harder for new and/or casual players to get into the battling aspect (which already exists to a large degree simply due to the way pcg is structured). For the most part people can still rely on general pokemon resources or knowledge from other games for moves/mechanics, which would become increasingly more difficult if we start adding moves that are exclusive to pcg.

I get not wanting to limit playstyles but there are different ways to go about it. It could be maximum x amount of pokemon with y kind of move you’re allowed to have on a team, max x times u can click y move in a battle, et cetera. With x being a variable that can be just about anywhere on the number spectrum. I didn’t feel like joining in on the discussion when they we’re up for debate but imo the same could be done for ohkos, sleep etc and with the right numbers everyone could have their preferred strategy and play style without it becoming overly annoying or unbalanced. And without needing bans, pp reductions or other workarounds. I know everyone likes to hate on ohkos, but they are (or I guess I should say they we’re) one of the ways to counterplay tanky healing mons that prove problematic for your team. But maybe I’m thinking too simply here? Anyway just wanted to drop my 2 cents this time around, a big fat no from me on custom moves.

hard shuttle
silent prairie
hard shuttle
#

Theyd still need to learn it though?

#

New player doesnt have move x either and yet it still affects them

shy wagon
hard shuttle
#

Im repeating myself at this point but if we go down this road then next people want a limit to drain moves, switch moves, setup moves.

Its a rabbit hole without end

graceful falcon
#

If it reaches a fair balance then there is an end to the rabbit hole. 🫣

trim mortar
#

Is it a possibility to make stronger tms a bit more available-maybe as 1 time BC shop purchases if possible-with the idea being that it's harder to lean on healing the better the other team is offensively? Might help navigate the other cost concerns or continual ban and nerf pushes

hard shuttle
#

In my opinion heal is not unbalanced or broken in any way, the main complaints are that it makes battles take too long

hard shuttle
graceful falcon
#

60-75? 👀

trim mortar
graceful falcon
#

or held items xD

olive mountain
#

Evil Fang just for this meme

#

(Oh I can’t post a pics NotLikeThis )

#

If I can’t post a screenshot I’ll post the link to the screenshot in chat

kind gyro
fast kestrel
#

Swords Dance cant be safed without items / abilities anyway. That move has to go with how the battle system currently is.

sleek zephyr
#

@honest pendant RIP everyones ground garys lol coverage gets changed all the time at this point

#

and no we shouldn't add custom moves when there are a tonne of moves still to be added to the game.

honest pendant
sleek zephyr
#

@honest pendant yeah, I just tend to lean toward buff not nerf, obviously some stuff is broken (marsh lol) and can have a naughty corner timeout or in extreme cases nerf stuff but generally buffs are better

solar wadi
stone burrow
#

The move Heal Block already exists

solar wadi
#

I think healing moves have a massive nerf from 10 to 5 and 5 to 3 in Normal slots.
I understand some people can use a STAB in they pokemon to heal with 5PP, but, except some MonoType, it's pretty risky (like a Togekiss without Fairy). But some pokes like Ferrothorn or Toxapex dgaf about loosing a STAB or even a cover move.

#

And I like the idea of having basic TMs. But I really want to know if have TMs to repleace bad moves in some pokemons gonna make more people enter in Ranked battles, because if only to make active player more OP, it's pretty dumb too.
Maybe a poll asking about this? idk...

pale bluff
#

i agree with @sleek zephyr how you talking about adding custom moves to the game when normal moves are not even added yet (stealth rocks, spikes) does that not help with the heal stalling issue? which is what this is being braught up about, cant swap in your 1 hp ferros/mandis to proceed to heal stall?

#

game cant handle those moves but yet lets create custom moves to add just saying.

honest pendant
#

hazzards are THE moves that should not come to PCG tbh lukankPeek

pale bluff
#

i disagree tbh, most people will swap their healers out with low hp in this game

#

hazzards make that not possible

#

pcg shouldnt have got swap moves then same arguement.

#

regardless getting off topic of the custom moves getting added thats all

fast kestrel
#

pretty sure a ferrothorn can swap back and forth longer under stealth rocks than a volcarona 👀

ripe olive
#

Let’s make healing moves restore only 50hp

fast kestrel
#

thats more than Shuckle would normally heal by them 😏

pale bluff
#

doesnt change the fact, that chip would turn a mon from 2 shot to 1 shot regardless

honest pendant
#

PCG dont have the tools to allow hazard moves in the game~~ We dont have itens or passives, neither manually created movesets~

#

the amount of value a single stealth rocks would get is insane

queen gate
#

coming from a rapid spin user btw

#

^

honest pendant
ripe olive
kind gyro
#

dude you have 20? pp vs 3

ripe olive
#

Yeah when the night shade user doesn’t have healing, you kill it before he does

honest pendant
#

again. if we are going to talk about heal, the imput is pretty much this:
Jonas: In my opinion heal is not unbalanced or broken in any way, the main complaints are that it makes battles take too long

#

its not about nerf. its about giving countermeasures

fast kestrel
ripe olive
fast kestrel
#

considering that Umbreon cant do anything to a Ferro... the Ferro,

ripe olive
#

Let’s test it because I’m sure it’s the umbreon is the winner

#

I need 4 night shades to kill it

#

While umbreon needs 4 foul plays or less while it can heal

#

Let’s say even 5 foul plays

honest pendant
#

on ferro

ripe olive
fast kestrel
#

Even if so - Since when is it an issue that something can barely handle a Non-Healing Ferrothorn?

ripe olive
#

That’s my point, I brought ferro as a tanky night shade user to counter the healer but it still kill me with only using 2 pp healing move

#

And let’s say I finally killed the healer, how should I deal with the second one IamDJKLul

#

Different scenario but common

stone burrow
#

Also serves a purpose to punish switch/flipturn/uturn dry bp

#

Healing really isn't a big issue, it's nerfed to the ground. draining moves offer much more healing with how lefties arent even in the game and with most of them doing about the same or neutral to common BP moves except with massive upside

knotty talon
#

same heal spammers trying to defend spam healing lmao

knotty talon
fast kestrel
knotty talon
#

Some people care more about the health of the game than self interest

fast kestrel
#

and its not the people who complain about how their Shadow Bone Dragapult cant go brrr against a tank, but yet completely refuse to run stuff with status moves on their team that were made to counter healing.

knotty talon
#

tell me you've never played real pokemon without telling me

fast kestrel
#

yeah... You just did that, indeed.

hard shuttle
#

Please add arguments to the discussion or leave it. Calling each other out doesnt help anyone

olive mountain
#

For the moves the changes I would love to see in PCG are the following: - allow choosing which move gets rerolled when using a TM for a mono type ( dual type don’t have this issue). - create a reroll item for coverage and a reroll item for normal move (for dual types) - add more TMs availability for purchase with poke$ (more variation and availability will make the game easier to play for new players who just started PCG). As for the PCG exclusive moves, I think healing has already been nerfed enough. What should be nerfed rather should be moves such as parabolic charge. That amount of PPs is non justified in a game mod that doesn’t have ability or items held. 10 pps at max should be fair. Finally moves such as v-create should be just banned from rolling in PCG. Why? Because Pokémon in PCG fight at lev50 and a move such as that is simple out of range for almost anything. (Probably also why it was not a move you could select in a batte in the latest two Pokémon games of BDSP and gen IX). In PCG as long as your are of that type you can learn any moves . But formally those signature moves were restricted to only a specific Pokémon (in this case victini and rayquaza) which means the developer of Pokémon didn’t want any mons to be able to learn it (depending on the bst on atk it would clearly be a broken move right?) (sorry for the papyrus)

fast kestrel
#

"allow choosing which move gets rerolled when using a TM for a mono type ( dual type don’t have this issue)"

-signed

"create a reroll item for coverage and a reroll item for normal move (for dual types)"

-too strong

"add more TMs availability for purchase with poke$ (more variation and availability will make the game easier to play for new players who just started PCG)"

-maybe battle coins instead, but not against the primary idea

"As for the PCG exclusive moves, I think healing has already been nerfed enough. What should be nerfed rather should be moves such as parabolic charge. That amount of PPs is non justified in a game mod that doesn’t have ability or items held. 10 pps at max should be fair."

-signed. signed. signed. signed. signed. Though there's barely a difference between 20 or 10 PP. 5 is where you cant just spam them at every opportunity anymore.

"Finally moves such as v-create should be just banned from rolling in PCG. Why? Because Pokémon in PCG fight at lev50 and a move such as that is simple out of range for almost anything."

-The rarity of V-Create makes it a bit difficult to judge, but the only move that really needs a ban imo is Swords Dance. Everything else should be possible to PP balance. V-Create has 5 PP, and 5 PP on a strong move that is hard to resist is certainly enough to burn through whole teams, but lowering those moves down to 3 (hello, Moongeist Beam, Sunsteel Strike and friends) adds enough room to stall them out before they solo'd half your team.

olive mountain
#

Agreed. Kekw

shy wagon
ripe olive
# fast kestrel and its not the people who complain about how their Shadow Bone Dragapult cant g...

status moves are limited comparing to healing moves, can be resisted and have low accuracy to land (except for glare). Adding to that you will need to hope for the 30% chance full para, 2 turns of sleep or the 10% chance to freeze + turns of being frozen, in the words I have to relay on RNG vs the 100% healing. From what I've seen the only counter to healing teams is running a healing team. They don't have to be all 6 of your mons, but at least 2 will make you have a fair fight. Maybe it's a stretch but is there a reason why every season you see the number 1 on the leaderboard run more than one healing? except for one season where SD marshadow was the dominant. Shadow bone pult is on most of the teams but never had an issue against it even without healing.

fast kestrel
#

Rain Dance and Hail are based on chance? You need to rely on RNG when burn is inflicted? Work Up is chanced based?

ripe olive
fast kestrel
#

Hail reduces most heals to 25% AND adds fix damage on top of that, which will hurt a tank much more than a sweeper

ripe olive
#

still limited to Ice type give me options

#

lapras walrein and avalugg?

olive mountain
#

Rain dance makes accuracy 100% for moves like hurricane and thunder

ripe olive
olive mountain
ripe olive
#

it works in a very very specific senarios like the one you've mentioned

ripe olive
shy wagon
ripe olive
#

They can learn to ice moves yes, but I rather run ice punsh ice shard avalugg over whatever combination with hail

hard shuttle
#

Yeah hail is absolutely useless

#

Rain got a niche at least

lavish plinth
#

I can already see how after I spend $200K and two weeks crafting a team with Hail/RainDance good enough for ranked, my opponents either use only Slack Off and Softboiled, or comes with all out offense that stomps my team which sacrificed some power for anti-heal utility sadnemite

ripe olive
hard shuttle
#

Shouldve 100% accuracy thunder'd it RaxyPogsire

ripe olive
#

Indeed if I had the banned r-wash or thunder tentacrule ShingamiDeathGodGasm

olive mountain
fast kestrel
# ripe olive still limited to Ice type give me options

your options are EITHER Hail OR Rain OR Sandstorm OR any of the numerous other status moves you can use against Heals. What else do you expect from the potential "custom field move" that isnt already covered with those weather effects if you refuse to use those but think that this custom move would be any different? A universal answer that gets rid of healing for you with not a single drawback while also not limiting you at all when facing Sweeper teams? Yeah, THAT sounds balanced...

ripe olive
#

I’m going to repeat myself but I’m fine about it. 1- Running hail will damage me, force me to sacrifice a coverage move and it’s limited to certain mons. 2- Sand storm will damage the none steel, rock and ground users while many of the healers are steel types. I can’t think of meta mon that can run it and not getting affected by losing a coverage slot. 3- Rain dance? I don’t know how rain drops counter healing moves

honest pendant
# olive mountain For the moves the changes I would love to see in PCG are the following: - allow ...

"allow choosing which move gets rerolled when using a TM for a mono type ( dual type don’t have this issue)"

-not agiasnt the idea 🤔

"create a reroll item for coverage and a reroll item for normal move (for dual types)"

-nah, thats just way to strong lukankStare

"add more TMs availability for purchase with poke$ (more variation and availability will make the game easier to play for new players who just started PCG)"

-like Konig said, making this batle coins could be a legit thing. Jonas did said (and is correct) that doing this would bump the average strenght of the game quite a lot, since anyone can roll a erfect coverage and have decent STABs on top of that.

"As for the PCG exclusive moves, I think healing has already been nerfed enough. What should be nerfed rather should be moves such as parabolic charge. That amount of PPs is non justified in a game mod that doesn’t have ability or items held. 10 pps at max should be fair."

-Konig is hella radical on this wanting 5 PP on such moves~~ But 10 PP does seems like a good place for them

"Finally moves such as v-create should be just banned from rolling in PCG. Why? Because Pokémon in PCG fight at lev50 and a move such as that is simple out of range for almost anything."

even on normal competitive pokémon every mon is lvl 50 on battles its not a PCG thing, but i agree that V-create is just too much for PCG... its a "balanced" move in normal pokémon exactly because we can't have a dragapult using it as a coverage and soo on.... If we would ever vote on deleting moves from PCG, V-create definetely doest make sense to be a thing

ripe olive
#

Also I agree with making parabolic charge as draining kiss clone

#

10 pp

honest pendant
#

@ripe olive how unbalanced are healing moves for u btw? 🤔 i agree that healing is strong, but i dont see it as being toxic strong~~ i do think that the 5 > 3 PP on healing moves made a pretty huge impact

#

i see healing as good options. some pokémon just need them to be viable, some benefit a bit from an extra option~~ But healing is fine for the most part in terms of balance

ripe olive
fast kestrel
#

"-Konig is hella radical on this wanting 5 PP on such moves~~ But 10 PP does seems like a good place for them"

I just dont see any difference between 20 or 10 PP; Guess you remember my Tapu Fini; Its a) a tank, so it does stay in battle for quite a while and b) it only has 20 damage PP TOTAL (!), and yet I barely struggle with running out of damage options when I use it. 10 PP surrounded by other damaging moves is just nothing that has to worry about running out in most battles, so you still can use it recklessly even on the 10 HP kill for those sweet 5 free extra HP healing without having to fear any drawbacks.

honest pendant
fast kestrel
#

its the change from "hopeless to try to outstall" to "almost hopeless to try to outstall" 👀

ripe olive
honest pendant
# ripe olive The only way to damage the healer is using super effective moves against it, but...

aside from cosmetic moves like hail and rain dance. there is a lot of counterplay to healing tho. you can safelly swap a hard mon for ur enemy to deal with when he is healing, you can status it, the more the enemy heal, more moves like ice punch, scald, zing zap~~ u can land and get the secondary effect... and there is a lot of non-supereffective moves that deal 40% of the enemy max HP or soo~ pretty much trading all the enemy healing PP for extra 30~50% HP a single time

fast kestrel
#

...what is rail? Edit: Oh, guess that was meant to be Hail xD

honest pendant
ripe olive
#

Here we go you’re mentioning a very strong rare moves that also can be resisted or can be tanked with no problem. It’s all depends on what is the heal user

#

Assuming if the healer is staying

#

All the healers run things in the back that can deal with what kills them and I’m 100% sure about it

kind gyro
#

ban good teambuilding

fast kestrel
#

Aaaaand.. the dragapult sweepers just stay in vs Togekiss instead of swapping a Magnezone in...?

ripe olive
#

Try to understand or just ask if you misunderstood something both of you. I’m replying to the and I quote “you can safelly swap a hard mon for ur enemy to deal with when he is healing, you can status it, the more the enemy heal, more moves like ice punch, scald, zing zap~~ u can land and get the secondary effect...”

honest pendant
# ripe olive Try to understand or just ask if you misunderstood something both of you. I’m re...

i feel like its a thing that can go both ways~ the guy can choose to heal or to swap into something else as well, etc...
Moongeist beam is definetely a strong move but pretty bad on aegislash-shield~ who uses slack off way better than dragapult... Its just more annoying and takes more time to battle agaisnt aegislash than draga for most people 🤔 Specially when u are playing a attrition game, losing 20% HP to deal 40% HP on the enemy, feeling liek u won a trade, them heal.... But i don't see it as game breaking, its just as good as intended.
I do agree with you that draining moves can get out of control easily as soon as u lose a counter, specially when talking about mons like Rotom with low max HP, high defenses, great typing and speed~~

ripe olive
kind gyro
#

the point is that you still get chip on something though. im gonna repost one of the first things i said in this post:

"safe" playstyles are always going to be prevalent in formats like current ranked where it's more of a grind rather than any other thing. lowering how much rng can affect a battle and using your pieces in a consistent manner is ALWAYS going to be a thing. the alternative is to delete that and make it a hyper offense fest where half the match is decided by the lead matchup.

fast kestrel
#

can we limit 100+ base power moves to 5 usages per battle?

honest pendant
ripe olive
modest pollen
#

like v-create, moongeist beam etc

honest pendant
kind gyro
#

and the people that play hyper offense get to run through their games fairly faster. but they have issues (i dont mean this as a burn or anything) with people playing a different way because it makes their own games longer

honest pendant
#

i've been testing 3 different teams on ranked this season. one being pretty offensive with sneasler + dragapult, and sreally surprised me how fast matches go when i am not paying defensive with buzzwole, ferrothorn, etc...
Specially since when u get ahead is really hard for the enemy to get momentum back, soo there is also a merit on aggro comps

#

i can't imagine how good must be using buff mons as well, like minish's quiver dance ~chancelure~~

#

right now i am playing consistency over fast matches (since queue takes 30~40 minutes on average to find a player). But i remembe when Hispanic got top 1 before everyone else using a team that was not looking that strong to me at first glance, but all of his matches would end up soo fast tht even without a overwelming positive win-rate he would just spam soo many matches that MMR would flood

stone burrow
sleek zephyr
#

@honest pendant @pale bluff stealth rocks would be game breaking

#

@pale bluff and again heals been nerfed multiple times it's not as strong as just overwhelming sets

silent blade
#

  • I agree with being able to select which mono type move we can replace with a TM.

  • I also support having at least some TMs in the shop but for a very high price like 50k+ or an x amount of BC's.

  • I don't support being able to fix coverage moves, that would be too easy & non-challenging.

  • I'm up for seeing one last nerf on heal moves (maybe making it all 2 PP) and hit-healing moves should be no more than 5 PP. To further reduce stalling. < If we did do this change btw, i would like it if we started moving on from nerfing/removing moves after that point, because it'd be disrespectful to many players who have spent hundreds or even millions of pokedollars towards certain mons just to see it heavily nerfed over and over again, which would unmotivated many to play. It'd be better if we just added more unique/powerful dmg output moves to the pool in the near future. salutepepe

celest garden
#

Personal opinion from me.
Heal at 3/3 is already a big nerf, teams are generalized into 4 categories, aggro, mid-range, stall & baton pass
An aggro team with 1-2 pokemons that can setup stuff like sword dance/dragon dance/quiver dance etc can deal a lot of damage to pokemon who have healing moves.

My suggestion is below.
New Update ADD RANK SHOP

I support in adding TMs into a new shop called the "rank shop" where you get certain points from beating an opponent and exchanging them for a good TM.
I support not allowing pokemons to use TMs if they don't contain the same type as the pokemon.
I support having hazards in PCG, but however not in the main pokemon games but Stealth Rock will only work for 2 switch ins, after 2 swaps it will be removed, you can re-set it up if you want.

A seasonal rotation of 4 TMs in the Rank Shop
A 1 time buy per season of a "Pokemon Box" that allows player to get a random A/B/C tier pokemon with IVs ranging from 15 to 31. (for 1 point, this will encourage newer players to pvp if they have a chance to get nice pokemon, however we can't give everyone too much for it, so I will limit it to 1 per season)
A 1 time buy per season of a Stone Pack Box.

For currency wise, if this suggestion is taken into consideration, opening a thread for people who are actively on ladder for inputs will be nice.

TLDR: No point nerfing heal further, its been nerfed enough. Add rank shop.

tight chasm
#

Here's my take, Jonas didn't ask for an opinion on nerfing healing, he asked for an opinion on if a custom move would be cool and if custom moves would be fun that's it let's stop talking Abt nerfing healing

#

Cuz this seems to be getting off topic

ripe olive
tight chasm
#

I mean "nerfing" is a strong word but I just mean what about custom moves in general

#

What do you think about custom moves at all

celest garden
#

Basically if custom moves are going to change the meta without nerfing any one of the 3 core teams. Sure. But a custom field effect to ruin any one of the 3 is not going to be welcome.

honest pendant
# tight chasm Cuz this seems to be getting off topic

the thing is: most people here disagree on adding custom moves, but since healing was the spark of the "custom moves" idea, we are discussing some alternate ways to solve such complains about healing matches taking too long~~ without needing custom moves :3

honest pendant
tight chasm
#

I mean maybe we nerf all healing moves to 3pp and don't allow them to be rolled as coverage or normal move? Idk just an idea, not completely banning them let them lose a stab for a heal? Besides toxapex ferro and maybe corviknight or mandibuzz who is willing to sac healing for stab

celest garden
#

Why are you going off topic? I thought you said its regarding custom moves?

#

And no changes to the meta moves.

#

And lmao not rolling normal moves if you hate healing so much do what i suggested by running a setup

ripe olive
ripe olive
honest pendant
#

its just more frustrating to lose vs healing tham losing vs other teams

ripe olive
celest garden
#

There are like setup teams that ruins healing, example getting off 1 sword dance is already brutal

pale bluff
#

4 seasons later we are still complaing about healing its like beating a dead horse tbh.

ripe olive
celest garden
#

People will always complain KeK

pale bluff
#

sorry but not sorry, even if heals got banned top players accused of heal stalling would still be at the top..

queen gate
#

ehhh

ripe olive
queen gate
#

agree to disagree 🙂

pale bluff
#

chupi lol

celest garden
#

As much as i have to change my archetype of playing.. but yes i agree @pale bluff

pale bluff
#

@ripe olive i get what ur saying though tbh dude.

#

its just not gonna change anything, the sooner we all learn that the better

celest garden
#

The moment healing gets changed people gonna complain about aggro

ripe olive
#

But it’s not gonna hurt to try it if that won’t change there performance

pale bluff
#

pcg isnt perfect lol there are always problem, obviously the every single mon in the game having access to it is what makes it hard.

#

but its been a hot topic for 4 seasons now. and its about as nerfed as it should be tbh.

celest garden
#

I see pcg as its rock paper scissors and rng

pale bluff
#

thats exactly what it is @celest garden

celest garden
#

But people will always complain paper (healing) is OP but they dont wanna use scissors and keep going for stone

#

🤦‍♂️

pale bluff
#

I think rocks and spikes are the play for healing tbh, cant change my mind

#

all healers run when they are low and cant pop another heal, u got rocks or spikes up that makes it so they cant bring it back out to heal up

celest garden
#

if there are rocks should make it custom only to last for 2 switch ins, 3 max

#

i wouldnt mind a custom rock or ghost pivot move

tight chasm
#

Maybe we add toxic spikes?

celest garden
#

Yes but for 2 switch ins, 3 max

#

Any more is too much

tight chasm
#

Then people would complain about teams that abuse it

kind gyro
#

rolling for stealth rock whirlwind ferro on day one

tight chasm
#

Rolling for rapid spin. Instantly

pale bluff
honest pendant
fast kestrel
# celest garden Yes but for 2 switch ins, 3 max

3 turns is like nothing. And I just cant see how tanks would be more hurt by hazards than their counterplays. Most tanks are steel. Steel resists stealth rocks. Steel is weak to fire. Fire takes double damage from stealth rocks. Steel is immune to toxic spikes (and swapping steel in is a way to remove them). Most other stuff isnt. And vs Spikes Corviknight, Skarmory and Mandibuzz are immune, the former two not even weak to stealth rocks. If both sides play hazards, the tanky side is the one that gains the advantage here.

celest garden
#

That means a guarantee damage for 3 swaps in. Alternatively u can ‘stack’ stealth rocks for more turns

#

We can code it like if its spikes, flying types swaps in doesnt remove a switch

fast kestrel
#

You cant stack Stealth Rocks. You can stack Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but not Stealth Rocks. And again, its the not tanky side that suffers much more from it.

celest garden
#

And i agree, tanky mons will just feel a slight chip, but the chip can be crucial if they get hit by a strong sweeper like pult

tight chasm
#

Maybe a move that damages the next Mon that tries to heal by how much it should heal?

#

Or only works on the opposing side

fast kestrel
fast kestrel
tight chasm
#

Well maybe it could last like 5 turns

fast kestrel
#

and after those 5 turns you are faster and just set it up again when the opponent wants to heal again. Yep...

celest garden
#

What do you think of a custom pcg hazard move where for the next 3 swap in takes 10% damage regardless of types @fast kestrel

#

Instead of the original pokemon hazards stealth rock damage varies

fast kestrel
#

its still the same. Those that can heal just outheal the damage while they gladly take it on those that try to counter them.

celest garden
#

Custom hazard: last for 3 swaps, deal 10% hp as damage, if you heal, you only recover 35% instead of 50% for the next 3 turns.

fast kestrel
#

how about a move that guarantees constant damage on a healer and punishes you for switching in anything else by giving it the same treat and lowering its physical attack. Only fire types are immune. Oh, wait, thats Will-O-Wisp.

how about a move that reduces the chance that a healer can even click its healing moves and punishes anything that tries to switch in by giving it the same treat and lowering its speed. Only electric types and maybe ground types are immune? Oh, wait, thats Glare / Thunder Wave / Nuzzle.

how about a move that has a chance that instead of healing the opponent will just hurt themselfes? Oh, wait, thats Confuse Ray.

how about a move that will punish a healer for trying to switch out and damage them anyway, even with twice the power now? Oh, wait, thats Pursuit.

how about a move that will deal 50 flat damage to the opponent so regardless of how much defense they have, they will barely be able to outheal that damage? Oh, wait, thats Night Shade / Seismic Toss / Psywave on average.

how about a move that will deal 50% of the opponents remaining HP, so will instantly kill 1 healing PP when it hits? Oh, wait, thats Super Fang / Natures Madness.

how about a move that reduces the effectivity of healing by 50% for 8 turns, maybe even add some extra damage each turn? Oh, wait, thats Rain Dance, (Sandstorm), Hail.

how about a move that just blocks your opponent from using status moves? Oh, wait, thats Taunt.

how abotu a move that boosts your stats while your opponent is trying to use stall tactics? Oh, wait, thats every buff move ever.

How does this list not have any single acceptable answer to healing already?! Seriously?! Why do we "need" to add a costume move that, if actually balanced, is just as valid as all the other moves here, so apparently nobody would use it anyway again. Which is basically asking for an UNBALANCED answer to healing.

silent blade
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I don't support custom moves regardless of the situation. That would ruin it for many. We already accepted sin variants but that's fine cuz no impact in battle. Introducing custom moves will make this game no longer feel like Pokemon imo. PB_kek

stone burrow
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To say it in the nicest way possible, outside of drain moves + set up, if you're having issues with healing at THREE pp or even FIVE pp. The issue is you're bad at team building or bad at battling or a combination of the two. The answer is very likely your team comp

silent blade
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I'd also like to add that we also need to start adding other moves to the game that we love from the main series, that way healing moves become even more scarce to roll in the future without having to remove them like we did to OhKo's.

ripe olive
# fast kestrel how about a move that guarantees constant damage on a healer and punishes you fo...

Will-O-Wisp is a very good move overall not just against healing moves but it is preferable to mono fire types (AKA Arcanine) with good moves on the other slots, and I don’t think that players will “refuse to use them” if they have it on their other meta pokemon. Same with glare which is the strongest and rarest status move. When you show your opponent that you have TW and Nuzzle in your first game, they will easily counter it with switching to something that immune to it, and it doesn’t punishes most of the tanks due to the fact that they are already slow and you will need to rely on RNG for the full para. Those two moves are popular and already been used by most of the top players, but didn’t make that noticeable impact on the healing strats since most of their team comps have at least one or two counters to them. Pursuit will only punishes if it’s super effective against it, and the other situations you either predict the switch correctly and deal a good damage (not a threatening one since get back with one heal) or they outplay you by staying and hurt you while you are tickling them with a 40 damage. Super fang and nature madness are imo the best counters to healing tanks with one being accessible and the other one can’t be immunized. I talked about night shade before, which does the most on that category, that you will lose the 1 v 1 against the healing mon since in neutral matchup they can just damage damage heal heal damage heal and damage KO. Honorable mention: toxic and lovely kiss. Except for Glare, when I compare all of these counterplays to the healing moves, most of them can miss, can be immunized or limited to certain types that can learn them.

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You are the one who keeps complaining about swords dance that it should be removed and now you are asking us to buff? I’m confused. If you say moves like work up I will tell you that one stage buff while bringing you counter Pokémon won’t help, not even with one sword dance buff. Also it’s not easy to bring more than one SD user per team comparing to more than one healer. I’m not commenting on the field effects that you’ve mentioned

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Shit I wrote a lot

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Sorry everyone

knotty talon
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Nah you right. Saying ‘use status moves’ in response to heal spamming is nonsense and everybody who doesn’t heal spam knows it. No custom move will fix that.

shy wagon
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I mean everyone has a right to their opinion but naming stuff like Hail as a counter to healing is honestly a meme

stone burrow
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Status cons royally bend over every "heal stall" you guys complain about. Chip damage is dumb af in this mode considering leftovers doesn't exist

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For all the heal stall you complain about, the issue is quite literally you not having a dedicated check or counter to something that counters your own team building

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Hail is a bad example of coubterplay outside of the niche morning sun/moonlight though

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Unless aurora veil exists

lavish plinth
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How about make all self-healing moves 90% accuracy 😏 so they're on the same accuracy as SuperFang/Madness. Bet that would turn some away from healing, and give people random victories.

lavish plinth
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And yea, switch - attack - switch - heal - repeat nullifies many of the counters like confusing, taunting, flinching, setting up, defense drops.
SlackOff, Softboiled, ShoreUp, HealOrder dont care about the weather.

Sacrificing your coverage move for Wisp or paralyze severely compromises your moveset, becoming a sitting status-duck to certain matchups, and making you lose battles you could have otherwise won. You'd also need status moves on several party members, since the enemy will probably switch in the same Pokemon on your status-mon every time, now that they know you lack damage cover move. The Normal type move can alleviate this weakness if you're lucky. (CrushGrip or DoubleEdge not exactly amazing against healers.)

SuperFang/Madness remain the best counter.
Would be interesting to find the "critical mass" of anti-heal Pokemon you require on your team to break enemy healers before you die, without sacrificing every cover move on your entire team. Three anti-healers enough?

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Removing ShoreUp/HealOrder/Synthesis/Moonlight as a possible cover-move roll is an option to reduce amount of Pokemon with access to 5 heal PP.

honest pendant
graceful falcon
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I mean, we had the solution at the beginning of this. Heal, clause. 👀

honest pendant
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but yeah, i agree a lot with Konig message tbh.
The fact that people are saying hail as a counter is a meme just shows that "anti-healing room" is not gonna be that great anyway since its kinda similar(but yeah, hail sucks)~~ (at least it would be on a normal slot i guess)
Saud said that after someone know u have nuzzle its way less effective, but u can just adapt to that knowledge. i cant say how many times instead of clicking nuzzle on my mandy vs a enemy who i just paralized their togekiss in a previous game~ i click foul play and they bring excadrill trying to pivot the nuzzle....
Status is extremely strong and reliable, moves like natures and super fang are good agaisnt healing and anything else tbh...

stone burrow
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Knowing that you have a move is also just straight up basic ladder meta. Adapt and either have mons that can be substituted out, avoid the counterqueue, swap something out specifically to change the match up prior etc.

As much as it would be nice if you could play every single person on the ladder blind and force everyone to go off zero info, it's not realistic.

queen gate
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@graceful falcon is spitting straight FACTS

stone burrow
graceful falcon
agile crest
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While i wouldn't mind more ways to slap healers, I highly prefer for pcg to stick to canon pokemon content.

silent blade
silent blade
fast kestrel
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"You are the one who keeps complaining about swords dance that it should be removed and now you are asking us to buff? I’m confused."

I dont know what is confusing about that. There is a good amount of buff per turn and there is too much buff per turn, which is Swords Dance. Whenever you'd 2-shot anyway, Swords Dance is a free turn. When your opponent MAY switch out, Swords Dance allows you to do the right thing regardless of if they swap or not. Fast Sweepers already dominate Ranked. Stuff like a Swords Dance Dragapult that 2shots most things anyway can instantly win you the whole battle once you get it into a place where it cant get oneshot (=Swords Dance turn, gg). Imagine a healing move, but its not 50% healing, its 100% healing (without putting you to sleep for two turns). Swords Dance is, with the moveset opportunities PCG offers, just too much. (and, remind you, Swords Dance also doubles the damage of all physical draining moves and thus, the healing you gain from them).

ripe olive
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I disagree with that but I don’t wanna explain why and go way further from the main discussion, so I’ll leave it for later if necessary.

stone burrow
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How do you disagree with that LOL he literally just said something true

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SD pult with shadow bone is gonna ohko kiss even if jolly

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Unless the kiss happens to be bold or something with a perfect defense stat

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SD is already plenty threatening on even randbats where scarfers exist with limited movesets

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Add in that technically you can get SD and perfect coverage with two moves AND something like v create on any random dragon and it's absurd

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Hell unlike with the "heal stall" you all complain about, unless your team has multiple extremely strong priority moves which I would say is MORE difficult to roll since it will usually take the place of a good STAB move to deal with the hypothetical pult, one SD just leads to a complete sweep where as "heal stall" = swap, they heal you threaten with new mon/hit with neutral and they're worn down again

ripe olive
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Plus that’s not our topic

stone burrow
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There's no disagreeing with +2 pult ohkos the entire mon list with whatever coverage moves it wants

ripe olive
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Ok

honest pendant
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but yeah, boost moves are pretty op

stone burrow
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with what

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and how

honest pendant
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mandybuzz takes a +2 dragon hammer with health to spare >:3 same for umby probably

stone burrow
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there is no priority foul play and nothing outspeeds +speed pult

honest pendant
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even a +4 tbh

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but yeah, really specific stuff, doesnt mean its not OP

stone burrow
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+4 it dies 100%

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+2 it lives if no chip damage sure

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but even in that scenario where you have umbreon at full

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all they need to do is keep pult hidden for a bit

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at some point people will roll enough of broken sweeper

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where EVERYONE on ladder at some point will have to pack super effective priority

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on multiple mons to try and check

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while keeping said mon healthy

honest pendant
# stone burrow +4 it dies 100%

i swap mandy into pult 1 out of 3 games in ladder. i can guarantee you a +4 pult doest take it down. still, buffs are really good...

stone burrow
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+4 0 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 188-224 (101.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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+def mandi, horrible IV pult +4 0 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Mandibuzz: 156-186 (84.3 - 100.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

honest pendant
stone burrow
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Below average IV pult +4 0 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Mandibuzz: 164-194 (88.6 - 104.8%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO

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ok

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+4 0 Atk Dragapult Dragon Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Mandibuzz: 156-184 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

honest pendant
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EZ Clap

stone burrow
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+4 0+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Mandibuzz: 171-202 (92.4 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

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oh no

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but we can tweak numbers to do whatever all day

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besides the point, SD is broken beyond belief that's why it is supposed to be limited

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Heal on the other hand has been nerfed to the ground and isn't all that strong

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"hardest" to deal with heal would be stuff like toxapex, umbreon, mandibuzz

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ferro is switch to ember and it rolls over

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umbreon and mandibuzz on the other hand have no 4x weakness and roll their offense off of a base 95 move with opponent's attack, and toxapex is just a monster defensively

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all three get torn down with proper teambuilding although umbreon and mandibuzz are annoying will admit. Don't think they're broken by any means just very strong in this format

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Umbreon and mandi almost require a special fairy since nothing really resists dark without a decently high attack stat

shy wagon
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It’s hard to make a case on swords dance being too strong without even mentioning similar moves (quiver dance, tail glow, belly drum, shift gear) that, while maybe not as common, are easily on or near the same power level as SD. But as said before it’s offtopic and deterring from the discussion. As far as I understood it’s not even a case of healing be too strong, and I’d probably agree that heals in and of itself aren’t too strong, but things can get annoying/overpowered/cheesy real fast when u stack up on them. Which is why we don’t allow dupes in ranked (and luckily most tourney formats). Might be less of an issue with individual moves, but a clause of some sorts could definitely be in order for certain moves.

Even the healing debate seems kind of like a secondary/bonus topic imo, the main suggestion was if we should add custom moves, which I’m firmly against. Custom sprites or balls/other items are one thing, but I think it’s a dangerous path to start messing with moves or mechanics more than we already have

stone burrow
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The healing is off topic but if we're loosely saying healing is "on topic" than by all means stat buffing moves can be argued along the same line since draining moves get buffed by them to continue the sweep while retaining bulk

honest pendant
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when i am getting my new custom move that takes out the "shiny" out of my enemy until the end of the battle?

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for mental damage purposes

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imagine taking the shiny out of @queen gate weaville pog or @graceful falcon porygon

stone burrow
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I am down for your idea, but instead of "end of battle" permanent. Imagine the actual mental damage

queen gate
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i would scream

stone burrow
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^ see!

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Mental damage ohko right there

shy wagon
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Jk i would never

honest pendant
shy wagon
fast kestrel
shy wagon
ripe olive
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Custom moves could be fun if it will be added in a separate mode other than ranked deemonSanta

graceful falcon
olive mountain
honest pendant
hardy vine
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Funny is most people who comments here are running healing moves😂 ofc no heal moves jonas lol

brave tartan
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100% no

stone burrow
fast kestrel
stone burrow
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It's a day late for me, time zones!

brave tartan
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No custom nothing

ripe olive
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bruh

honest pendant