Should we remove the penalty that

[mighty vault]

kinda useless considering how cheap revives are 👍

[lost inlet]

Sometimes we surrender out of sportsmanship to say well done to the opponent, when the outcome is clear to both of us and not to make the opponent wait for a tedious process of killing the remaining ones. During off-season with the boosted exp I would do the opposite letting the opponent kill my very last Mon to boost the exp but now that it’s more important to just win and move forward the Mmr I believe 5-10 extra $ isn’t that revelant compared to purposely stalking battle to the end like I saw some people do (like I ve heard of letting the timer runout even when the person is on last Mon just to make the opponent lose time which is the opposite to sportsmanship and respect towards the opponent)

[floral lance]

I'd love if we removed the potion and revive system entirely 🙂 but that's a conversation for another day

[tulip pendant]

Agree 100%. Makes no sense to draw a battle out after it's clear you've lost, and that shouldn't be penalized.
Now, if someone goes in and immediately surrenders, that should count towards a battle timeout.

[hidden dune]

I remember seeing some "suicide move" teams somtimes to go lower I guess and farm wins... so I feel like, giving a penalty for surrender doesn't even really prevent anything... I mean it does take more time to go lower mmr, ok, but compared to playing a regular game, it is almost the same.

[wraith wigeon]

its harder to spot a person deranking by just FFing, than a person using 6 suicide moves tho~~
Pretty sure every who was going around clicking memento on ladder got a 40 days ranked ban or something 🤔

but yeah, i think its time for us to have the entire revive system down 😂

[solemn basin]

I surrender when I clearly lost, I also surrender against certain players I know are unbeatable with my team given they just have spent the pokedollars on making the ideal 3k mmr team. I do understand getting penalized for it, and I imagine there will still be a timer in place. My concern is, feinting mons were a sign I was coming close to getting a full blown cooldown and I fear I might just accidentally trip it without the feinting mons to show I been surrendering too much. (never have had the 30 minute timer, just feinting mons) It's tough, I know I love when someone surrenders to me team because I don't run a gimmick other than swapping, I'm sure there's some that feel the complete opposite when someone surrenders and they wish that they got to play their full match.

[scenic slate]

Does anyone have any ideas how to prevent this better?

[solemn basin]

any way to check if someone mementos or final gambits multiple times in a match?

would be my only thought, this only came about because of the win system which I love a lot and would hate to see it reverted because a few people are throwing to get easier wins

[scenic slate]

That would be an option I guess 🤔

[solemn basin]

I can't say I've seen anyone use memento to actually gain an edge but I'm also the lower-mid range of the ladder typically so maybe it gets juicier higher up. Final gambit actually seems justifiable, god who was it with tauros that made that play on me. That's one I've seen change entire dynamics of games, hell I think I even lost that one.

was going to imply maybe ban those moves in ranked, but I'm not sure if that's too far reaching if there are the select few that actually use it strategically.

[scenic slate]

Yeah that was my first thought too but it would be a bit of a shame to have to remove them entirely because of that

Also would prevent us from adding fun moves like self destruct in the future

[solemn basin]

maybe a max of 1 memento and 1 final gambit user per team?

I think regardless, you'll find people who might just run a C tier team in place of no longer having a 6x suicide team if there is a change.

[solemn basin]

adding to this, it would be cool to see OHKO's return in the form of maybe just 1 max OHKO mon per team or something

[hidden dune]

I feel bad for anyone who would have both moves in a strategy and get canceld by it, but maybe it s the only way...?

[solemn basin]

I mean if you are using memento in a strategy, chances are you aren't bringing in multiple memento mons to make it work, the person who had their stats lowered could just swap there should be a check to see if a combined amount of these moves is used and if it exceeds like 3 or 4 for example, it's obviously a throwing team

[hidden dune]

well, ill just take example with Trick Room ; sure you can be able to sweep, or at least take advantage with one trick room, but in general, you take multiple... i admit it is different for memento or final gambit ; however f.e. you could easily want to set up your tapu koko multiple times in a game because you killed one ground type, but there was another so you need to check it first (yeah i m losing the point i know) , and in this case, specific for sure, you would run maybe 2 memento or 2 final gambit users (god i dream i had a tapu koko to set up XD)

[solemn basin]

Yeah I get what you mean, it's a tough position to be in because these teams have sprung up more since the win system was introduced. I'd love to hear from some players that use memento or final gambit to their advantage, epseiclaly if they run multiple of. Final gambit seems super viable over memento, like I was saying earlier, I had a game go their way because of their final gambit mon. I still have my reservations that a lot of people are really using these 2 moves to gain some upper hand. That person with their final gambit mon that beat me was 1/82 games I've played so far this season. and I can say for sure last season I ran into a few full memento/final gambit teams that were tanking for the freelo

run into more full memento/final gambit teams than teams actually trying to capitalize on the move.

[wraith wigeon]

i mean, if the surrender penalty is removed, there is no need for people to use mementos anymore, they will just surrender a lot

[hidden dune]

once, i ve encoutered someone using 2 pokes like that, but i assume it was to bait, because i thought "oh again a suicide team" and then bim set up his poke after killing 2 of mine with final gambit, 3 pokes each, still not fun to encounter, but still can be played

[solemn basin]

I guess I imagined that they were only removing the feinting and that the timer would stay

[wraith wigeon]

i cant remember facing final gambit in ranked, but i did faced quite a few mementos~~ usually they would use memento to bring in a buff+baton pass pokémon safely

[hidden dune]

but then you just can farm wins against lower ranked players, and maybe get them frustrated... not a good idea for me

[wraith wigeon]

exactly the point

removing the penalty is good in 99% of the situations, but will indeed give a helping hand to those MMR dropping guys since its harder to track a person surrendering than a person using 6 mementos

[hidden dune]

maybe put a limit turn number like i dunno 10 turn limit, and then if you surrender, it is ok, but if you surender to fast and repeatly, you get pokes KO etc... (anyway, after a few month doing pokedaily revive etc... was not a problem anymore i think)

it would be harder to code maybe, i don't know, but i really believe that if you surrender everygame after 2 turns, there is a problem in your team, or you just face the same opponent again and again XD

[wraith wigeon]

the thing is: revives just seems a little bit too weird of an iten in PCG imo, the only reason for them to exist is to heal pokémon that can only die if you get penalised in ranked
Would be better to just remove revives and the "dying" system, and make it a new one

some people said up there that sometimes they just face a person they know its unbeatable or they know will be a heavily unfavorable match with 20+ minutes long~~ soo they just intantly surrender~

maybe just giving you a 30 minutes ranked ban if you surrender 2~3 matches in a row could be a thing

even better if you can increase that timer if happend again in less tha 24 hours or soo

[hidden dune]

ban of ferrotorn was quite a good thing back then 😄 yeah, i assume you speak of the time the meta pcg was full leech seed ferrotorn... oh wait, they are back.

sorry, just salty

[wraith wigeon]

there is a lot of other stall oriented mons tho :3 @gaunt summit team for example has no ferrothorn, but a really annoying toxapex, a bing + protect + morning sun snorlax
Soo stall is gonna always be around :3 but yeah, some people just can't stand playing a 30 minutes match

[scenic slate]

But isnt that exactly how it works now? 🤔

Nobody gets any penalties for surrendering 1, 2 or 3 times. Just if you consistently do it

[hidden dune]

really? i didn't know ^^ i lost once my pokes from surender a few times in row, so since then i ve never surrender anymore XD

my bad then

[scenic slate]

So in my opinion without a mechanic to prevent people from just surrendering to lower mmr for the reason to beat up newer players the penalty can notbe lifted

[wraith wigeon]

maybe just removing the "faint penalty" and increasing the timer on the "timer penalty" 🤔
this way we can remove revives from PCG at least

[solemn basin]

I'd like there to be a way to know I was getting close to hitting a timer though. I used my feinting mons as a sign that I was giving up too much and closer to a time ban.

[wraith wigeon]

how frequently do you surrender tho? D:

[solemn basin]

Not that often, if I run into someone I know is a heal spammer, I'm gone. I don't have the time to play a 30 minute match when I'm just going for wins

sometimes its halfway through the match and it looks hopeless for me against just a better team, I'll ff those too

[wraith wigeon]

i never took the faint penalty in 2 years~~ And i do surrender when i know the match will take 3+ minutes to finish and its pretty much checkmate for my enemy

[solemn basin]

part of it is I played right at the start of the season so I was matching against ex 3k rated players. If I saw rillaboom last season, I surrendered

I just haven't spent the money on mons to have some insane set that would promote me that far, most of my mons in my ranked teams came as is with the exception of some nature changes

my highest rating is 1794 and I hit that last season, before that maybe 1200?

[hidden dune]

I personaly prefer a really hard game, than a 30mins game of heal spam... but whatever ^^

[solemn basin]

never taken a timer ban because if my mons feint I'll stick it out even if I'm getting clobbered

[solemn basin]

nah, if you hit 3k you just have an overall better set than anything I could muster

I only started ranking because of the wins for prizes format. It's more reasonable for me to hit 150 wins for an S tier than it is 2100+ mmr

[wraith wigeon]

@solemn basin soo, do you preffer to have all your mons fait and spend pokedollars in revives and potions, instead of getting a 30 minutes ban from ranked? 🤔

[solemn basin]

100%, I'm a collector so I always have cash for small things like revives

[wraith wigeon]

u said u used the fainting mons as a way of noticing the timer coming close. for me would be 100% the other way around

[scenic slate]

but its not fainting all mons, just one

[wraith wigeon]

ohh

[scenic slate]

i dont think spending money on a revive is a big deal

[wraith wigeon]

yeah, make sense

[wraith wigeon]

i just got the penalty once 2 years ago when it was happening on private matches too. but as soon as i reported that u changed pretty fast
i think back int he days it used to be all 6

[scenic slate]

yeah thats true

[hidden dune]

i think it was dependant on the pokes, i mean, there was 6 timers, each poke has one, when i lost mine, they were not all dead

[scenic slate]

Obviously everybody will vote yes with a suggestion like this to remove a penalty but i think it needs a bit more thought than just yes / no

[hidden dune]

btw, that was a problem (for me) with the bans too 🙂

(sorry to bring that, but since i began, i just want to quickly speak about it) When most ppl have pokes really popular and you give em to choose between ban their popular poke with great moves, and some Lapras way less often (yeah freeze dry i know, but not that hard to check) they usually will just not go for ban of the poke they love to use... Not everyone ofc

yes, it is not related to this directly, but since you spoke about the vote yes/no it remind me this ^^

[scenic slate]

Thats why all options were handpicked for viable bans so that no matter what a reasonable ban list would come out of it

[hidden dune]

(i took lapras as an example, i don't use it myself tho)

[scenic slate]

But yeah thats not the topic here

[hidden dune]

Again, sorry for bringing it up...

[scenic slate]

No need to be sorry!

[solemn basin]

these threads are all about opinions

[fading flower]

let's be fair to some extent: if there is a possibility do something, people will find a loophole and use it. if they want to downrank they could also just queue with c tiers, surrender till they are knocked out and just sell them...

Leaving the potion and revive discussion aside: If somebody surrenders after X turns, they played the match and got into a position in which they don't believe that continuing the match would be beneficial. I had to revive last season multiple pokemon on bad days due to surrendering while being in a 2v5 and it felt just wrong and bad to me.

[gaunt summit]

hyper offense is just too boring just play a mid range or stall comp.. much more fun games and u have to think more about ur turns

[karmic gorge]

is it possible to make it a penalty if you surrender say before 10 turns into a match? right now its purely 'did you surrender in general x amount of times within a certain period'.

[crimson sage]

I think I had a ranked timeout once last season, but I did not surrender on purpose to get lower MMR, I just couldn't beat my enemies back then (New player and all, i had my nemesis pokemon and no matter what I did I just couldnt beat certain mons/movesets) . I surely was confused though I didn't know that a penalty like that exists - but let me get back to topic - yeah I'd say remove this lowering hp/fainting penalty and just increase ranked timeout, and maybe consecutively increase it, the more often someone gets a timeout in a day but most importantly IN GENERAL. could need a bit more thoughts and finetuning/testing when doing so but I think that would be the right way.
When you queue with 6 C-Tier Mons you don't have to surrender anyway cause you just get beat by your opponent who collects the "easy" win and wants a real match in the next round and not waste any more time on that "false match" ...

other question, is there a way to ban "6-C-Tier-Teams" in ranked? Fix to the resulting "how can i level my pokemon issue" → lower or remove the cooldown from easy bot/AI matches and increase the exp amount gained from that by a REASONABLE Amount? (Imo way too hard to level mons besides rare candys which are still "rare" lol out of 3x exp bonus times like in pre-ranked-season.
That way you would keep specific exp farming intentions out of the active ranked queues that leads to "false matches" and "easy wins" for some people? 🤔

[blazing charm]

When fainting is removed can we have some cash back for all the times ff and had to revive ? 😏

[ashen bloom]

Sounds good to compensate time in battle

[ashen bloom]

Following what Panda said;
New Pay Equation: Ranked Win $100 (at least for our time lol) + Surrendering Opponent $50 to $100 + Revive Item Pay $150 ...

... = $300 to $350 Poke-dollar payout for 10-15min played in a Ranked Battle, which is about what we make in 15 min for being active in Twitch chat 🙂

^ @dense tangle @tight plaza what do you think?

[wraith wigeon]

hey, kinda reviving the discussion after talking with some people.

How many people do intentionally drop their MMR btw?

In many games like Hearthstone is common sense to surrender and save u some time in unwinnable matches, or when u just dont feel like playing a specific team~~ And there is no penalty for just willingly dropping your MMR.

Maybe just removing the penalty system and just allowing those people who want to sabotage their own MMR is not that big of a deal tbh 🤔

it just seems like we are making a ton of people in PCG be concerned about losing mons due to penalty, waste money on revives, or even get a timeout or be mad of being punished after losing a lot of matches~~ For the sake of a very few amount of people who are trying to abuse the mmr system and its not even that good of a abuse since is also very time consuming~ 🤔

[scenic slate]

A few who intentionally lose MMR so they can farm wins off newer players / players with less pvp experience instead of facing people on their actual level resulting in new players not wanting to play pvp anymore.

That is a much bigger problem than spending $150 on a revive

[wraith wigeon]

thats why i asked how many infractors we might actually have 🤔 people willing to drop mmr and farm new players will just use mons they wont even revive and just sell instead anyway~~

maybe we could have a similar system of the one we had when reaching 3kMMR would left u stuck there? soo people cant go down a league when they reach it? 🤔

soo everytime you get a new badge, even if you drop your MMR. you stay with that badge basically...

[hidden dune]

well, to go in @wraith wigeon way, i don't think falling against some random guy really good but dropping mmr is such a bad experience of a newer player, but facing him a lot of times would be quite horrible, so maybe adding somthing to not fall against same player in the same hour/or more could be a good addition ? i don't know if what i want to say is correctly formulated.

[wraith wigeon]

i got an interesting reaction there

[hidden dune]

love the idea

like in hearthstone, as you mentiond earlier

[solemn basin]

it might help a bit, or hurt worse. Just prevent yourself from 1300 or something and always verse iron/bronze, or someone makes it to 1500 and then is stuck there and can't win anymore

I've made it to 1794(last szn) but only because someone spoonfed me the information of what would make a better team. There is a cutoff point where sometimes you think you should just be beat down into the previous bracket

[wraith wigeon]

i mena, if youa re at 1500, you can still fight 1000~~ mmr people. the range is hella huge

[solemn basin]

1k can't fight gold I don't think

[wraith wigeon]

if that happens, you just found the perfect MMR for u. you are having challenging matches who are pushing you into being better :3

[solemn basin]

No, I definitely ended 250 wins and checked my match history it was entirely green. But that's the thing, I didn't set my team I just made the decisions with it. I didn't even think my team was problematic so I was clearly missing a lot

[wraith wigeon]

i think you can match agaisnt people 3 badges away from you~~ 🤔 soo even at a high badge you will be facing some lower ranked people anyway. soo getting stuck in a badge will not make u way outclassed... even if you lose more than u win, you will just not improve and keep fighting the people at that range

[solemn basin]

that sounds worse

just stuck not improving

[wraith wigeon]

i genuinely think that would solve ranked issues for good. we could get rid of every penalty, timer and revive~~

[solemn basin]

I don't know, I'd guess with no poenalty, people would just stay pre 1100 or pre 1300

[wraith wigeon]

wdym? its literally the same as now, your MMR will move the same way....

i think u might be confusing something

[solemn basin]

well right now if it was the same way I'd be locked at 1300

even if I lost 10x times in a row

[wraith wigeon]

your MMR can go lower, but your "1300 badge" stay

you gonna stil match with the same level of people

soo i could get elite 2 badge at 3k MMR, and lose all the way into 1000 MMR and i will still fight people near Elite 2 league

soo basically only people who managed to get 2300 MMR at least once

[solemn basin]

yeee idk

don't like the idea that just because I hit a certain mmr once because I had a good day that now I've opened myself up to even higher level opponents indefinitely

I kept going in and out of 1300 a lot last season, and it's much the same this season

I go up to 1300 and it matches me further up the ladder and I lose, then I derank to 1294 and suddenly win against that person

I think the ladder needs more groups or something

if badges are gonna lock ^

I'm not huge on battling as it is, like I said way up in the thread previously, I only began grinding it with the introduction of wins for rewards. I held the same opinion last season personally that there aren't enough groupings but it's probably just because I'm really bad at this whole thing. so when you say my badge will be stuck in place because I had a one off streak, I get nervous

[wraith wigeon]

MMR gain is already pretty inflated tho. Losing to a player who has the same MMR as you should lose you around 10MMR~~ but winning would grant you 14 or soo~

soo i dont think we will ever have a problem with that. but if it does happen, maybe adding more badges would fix it, yeah

[hidden dune]

hmmm I was going to say
[shields then, instead ? I mean, something like you get above 1250, you get a "shield" that prevents you for going down on first lose, so you will never get stuck, but we could have like 2 "lives" or so, and you can limit the number of quick leave, but not remove the possibility to go back to easier match]
But thinking again, it won't stop the number of quick leave, it will maybe even increase it... So yeah, with the limitation of ranks or whatever there will be problems anyway.
Still I believe that revive are worse for new players, than for a player that plays for long, which is more likely to be the ppl doing quickleaves (not telling everyone is doing that after month/years of play, i mean that if someone is doing "drop mmr quickleave", i don't believe it is going to be a player of less than a month playing casually ^^)

[wraith wigeon]

its way more complicated to configure them "just locking the badge and thats it", and its like i said, they already facilitated the climb as you gain more MMr on wins, than you lose at losses~~ soo it kinda balances out that aspect passively :3

[hidden dune]

yes, i know... I told it knowing it was not a good way, but might help to think of something that might work ^^

[karmic gorge]

i really enjoy lukans suggestion, say if someone is purposefully dropping i think it will be pretty obvious, they would have to be dropping mmr pretty frequently before reaching the next tier... would be too much of a hassle for most to do.

could make it where this is only a factor until 1900 mmr or something of that sorts. that way that nearly covers the ranges people are doing it.