Disinfo - Israel - Palestine 2023-?

[azure gust]

The topic is the secret command bunkers that are possibly built by Israel government themself, so it would be interesting if there are more articles mentioning this, besides this article from Newsweek and Tablet Mag which is apparently controversial.

USA and Israel say that their claims about the tunnels are based on their intel, while it seems like they might have possibly built the basement themselves (possibly even tunnels).

[mystic root]

Iran insisting the tunnels aren't Israeli:

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310301314

[azure gust]

I'm seeing this video on social media, but have not find it on BBC website yet:

BBC: Israel has tampered with evidence, manipulated video, lied to the public and provided no evidence that al-Shifa Hospital was a command centre for Hamas

https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin/status/1725481914562121794

[strange kelp]

Bit of a discussion from here, apparently on the BBC news site but geolocked #israel-palestine message

[wary jewel]

I think that's just electrical wire. I think you're right about the blocks, here's some reference photos.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/A-Guide-to-Illicit-Iranian-Weapon-Transfers-in-the-Gulf.pdf

[azure gust]

suppose it could be electrical. the greenish color and presence of c4 blocks makes me think of this det cord:

[wary jewel]

There's a lot of equipment in that cache for electrical demo: large battery, multimeter, electric blasting machine, wire strippers. We don't see anything visible for non electric demo, not that it isn't/wasnt there. As I don't think they've shown any blasting caps or non-electric initiation in any of the releases.

[azure gust]

agreed.

[azure gust]

😅

also, interesting.

[bronze crystal]

I want to bring attention to this message ^^^, do I understand correctly, that the IDF presenter just lies by saying "these are vests with explosives, it's a body vest for terrorist to explode on [Israeli] forces, among hospitals, among patients"? Is anyone aware of Hamas doing suicide bombings or something like that?

[wary jewel]

I'm not even sold that's actually a suicide vest inside of just a bag being used essentially as a satchel charge. That bag just looks like bare explosives, without any enhancement such as shrapnel. There's also no evidence of an initiation system for it, even disconnected.
https://youtu.be/FsuoBoRE-To?t=156
Hamas carried out suicide bombings back in 2004, but I don't believe there's been any instances of them doing it since.
https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/ci/israel/79006.htm

[mystic root]

This sounds like a highly biased source putting words in BBC's mouth

[azure gust]

It was really more about the video than the twitter source, but I realised the video was posted before but in the other channel. Sometimes it's a bit confusing to know where to post.

[mystic root]

It's fine

[azure gust]

those satchel charges are often offensive against material, not personnel.

door and wall or entryway breaches.
tank and armored vehicle disablement.
enemy force degradation along those lines.

[mystic root]

If you want to blow up just one person a grenade is better built for that

[azure gust]

p much.

[vital furnace]

https://vxtwitter.com/QudsNen/status/1725499976812245435

Quds network posted this ~5 hours ago, but me digging around a bit this did not seem to be any mosque in Budrus

• https://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Budrus_921/index.html#Pictures
• https://www.facebook.com/2016Budrusnow/posts/pfbid0dxiuVU5BRMMfeYDC8wh2ZcvCuLmBahemowGWEtBkoMZUjzM8KzxVucnm1sk2Js4el?locale=ar_AR
• https://youtu.be/azHoWTkkpXk?t=202
  Any one with better geolocation competency able to locate where the location of the video is?

[frank apex]

There's a chance that the text written above the door in the video is the name of the mosque, if someone who reads Arabic can identify that it would help a lot

[bronze crystal]

google translate for images

[spice tundra]

bit late responding to this, but I did a translation check and analysis of Yasmin's earlier testimonies in Hebrew a few weeks back:#1161401676943609907 message.

her recounting to CNN in your link is consistent with her accounts in Hebrew. she's (to my knowledge) the most commonly cited eye witness to Israeli deaths from friendly fire on their own forces in the Oct 7 response. I haven't come across others in Hebrew, nor of concerted Israeli attempts to deny the accuracy of her account.

[vital furnace]

There's also another (I assume) religious building in Budrus adjacent to the cemetary, but I don't think it is a match either
https://www.facebook.com/2016Budrusnow/posts/pfbid0m9UAGr9A5c2TiFaK8R86kR59fUK1RmUBDykj4YX3RaYu8wcpuCRqaiRMJFT2WAopl

[bronze crystal]

An alternative google translation for an image of better quality

[strong forum]

It says Mosque of Budrus

(I read Arabic)

Google is bad with fancy writing or handwriting, and the first letter is cut off (masjid, the word for mosque, comes from the verb to prostrate).

[vital furnace]

Hm, so maybe there might be other mosques in Budrus, but not these two in particular

[strong forum]

I see the other person with Arabic skills is still timed out. If you need something, ping me. I'm bad at listening, but I can read ok.

You can try searching Google with Arabic words: مسجد (small neighborhood mosque) and جامعة (bigger mosque)

Budrus is spelled بدرس

[bronze crystal]

Thank you.

[vital furnace]

The image results really are getting muddled by the Budrus video, but as far as I can tell there are two standout masjids in Budrus, the older one with the minaret, and the newer one with stairs which I presume was only finished in February last year
(https://www.facebook.com/p/مسجد-بدرس-الكبير-100064910941684/?paipv=0&eav=Afa5LZi68r9GgFiHpVPbuRkDkB7nytfLQsHPHLxTf6XF2QuzrCp-Mf_dMNPIz1HGepM&_rdr)
They don't look to be perfect fit for either of the mosques, but turns out Al Jazeera also reported on it around the same time Quds did: https://vxtwitter.com/AJA_Palestine/status/1725511725280084407

You know, I take everything back, I found an image of the backdoor of the newer masjid (مسجد بدرس الكبير)
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02tcV9dCmPdepbK9yvz6noYvZ1HZ6NmXXFJK8XKp8PsGn5DvgRLUAwbE7Gh2CJQchql&id=100064910941684

Case closed I guess?

[frank apex]

Hold on I might be seeing things, but is there any chance this is the punisher skull?

It's very common in the U.S. in some circles but I've never heard of it in Israel before

[true snow]

Having seen a million of those on stupidly large pickup-trucks, certainly looks like one, or at least some kind of skull logo

[strange kelp]

The jaw looks a little wide for the punisher skull to my eye

[vital furnace]

I mean, the people fighting in Ukraine order all sorts of silly patches, this wouldn't be that out of the ordinary right?

[frank apex]

Huh, maybe it it possible? Can't say for sure.
https://forward.com/news/477842/the-punisher-marvel-comics-hero-nazi-symbolism-israel-soldiers-idf/

[tepid heart]

I think it's pretty clearly inspired by the Punisher skull. I wouldn't call it a Nazi symbol but I can 100% tell the vibe of the people that use it (a really romanticized "sometimes someone's gotta do bad things to stop the bad people" fixation, along with delusions of being that someone and possibly delusional ideas of who the "bad people" are)

[scarlet orbit]

I find the Nazi comparison very strange. Personally, I have never seen people refer to a skull as a Nazi symbol. It's just such a generic symbol.

This is from a German perspective, it might be different in other parts of the world.

[sharp hawk]

When I hear skull I think punisher, which definitely has neo-Nazi connotation

lol @tepid heart already said it I was too lazy to read at first

https://www.jewishboston.com/read/neo-nazis-the-punisher-and-cognitive-dissonance/

[frank apex]

IDK how it's viewed in the rest of the world, but in the U.S. it's been used by far-right groups (I first noticed it after the 2020 police brutality protests, but it's probably older than that). So in that context it it definitely at least suggests right-wing affiliation, but it may be different outside of the U.S.

[sharp hawk]

Yeah that image that the forward has really does look like it though

But the picture @frank apex posted is kinda blurry. could be a circle or something

[bronze crystal]

(EDIT: Please ignore. This statement was compactly and imprecisely expressing my personal perception. What I said is not really about the Punisher skull - the experience that got me that perception about skulls on patches was not related to the Punisher skull.)
For me, skull symbolic on patches/accessories (if it is not a pirate flag) has direct association with far-right/ultra-right and maybe neo-nazis/skinheads. (Very eastern part of Europe).

[scarlet orbit]

That's really interesting, thanks for the different perspectives!

[sharp hawk]

I would think given the prominence of it as a neo-Nazi symbol in the US and how Jewish orgs have identified it as such, it would be highly unlikely an IDF soldier would be wearing it.

[wheat ether]

It's pretty popular amongst US military and law enforcement https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/06/11/the-creator-of-the-punisher-wants-to-reclaim-the-iconic-skull-from-police-and-fringe-admirers/?sh=48c7109ab434

[sharp hawk]

yeah... 😦

[frank apex]

💯. And even if it is a skull, there's a chance it's just, like, a regular non-punisher skull lol. I feel like that wouldn't be weird for a soldier to have.

[stone portal]

Theres a few trucks where I live that have Punisher logos, but absolutely never picked up a neo nazi vibe from that.

Its always been more of a cop/rightwing symbol in my eyes

[sharp hawk]

In the US the Venn diagram of those groups and neo-Nazis are almost a circle

[stone portal]

For cops? Not as a rule. But its definitely part of a mainstream rightwing culture.

[sharp hawk]

Getting off topic, but PLENTY of folks have written about this
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/18/thin-blue-line-what-does-american-flag-wit-flag-maker-condemns-use-white-supremacists-charlottesvill/580694001/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/local/charlottesville-videos/

[stone portal]

Unless you're telling me I live in an area full of neo nazis despite living in the big city in the most liberal secured district in Canada

[sharp hawk]

I don't know about Canada, this was in reference to the US

[true snow]

It's a gradient

[bronze crystal]

Just a small addition, I was not talking about specifically punisher sculls (I'm not sure I've even seen punisher skulls used by anyone outside US and now Israel).

[near apex]

In the NL if im gonna see a soldier looking person wearing a skull like that i’m definitely gonna get slight neo nazi vibes. But might be stronger here because german ties without the intense focus on denazification germany itself had

[austere jolt]

https://vxtwitter.com/snarwani/status/1725138601996853424

[mystic root]

He's not wrong that tiktok is highly problematic

[quick crag]

in israeli culture it is very not like that (as far as i know or have seen)
tbh I doubt the average Israeli would ever assume there to be a relation between punisher skulls and neonazis/skinheads/ultra right
from what I've seen it's just commonly used in the army (for some reason specifically in the SoF) as part of the "wasakh" that soldiers enjoy (wasakh is a term used by soldiers to describe stuff that make them feel/look cool or scary or more commando like (which is why many soldiers take pics of themselves with balaclavas)

[true snow]

Yeah Jewish Voice for Peace is Iranian propaganda XD

[strong forum]

For the record, the phrase “Zionist entity” is not Iranian propaganda at all. It’s a very common Arabic term that’s been used for decades. Key vocab for any “media Arabic” class.

Iranians might use it, I have no idea. But ADL is revealing its ignorance here. (Or willful drumming up of fear of Iran, who can say.)

[true snow]

I think it's an "Am I out of touch? No it's the kids who are wrong" Seymour type situation

[austere jolt]

having Iran be the ongoing 'boogeyman' is a known rhetorical/propaganda technique. Not to say Iran is a good actor or anything but makes for a potential unifying foe

[bronze crystal]

I should not have posted that reply. That statement was compactly and imprecisely expressing my personal perception. What I said is not really about the Punisher skull - the experience that got me that perception about skulls on patches was not related to the Punisher skull.

[mystic root]

I would not characterize the claim that Hamas terror attack was unjustified (which is directly what Greenblatt speaks to) as being Israeli propaganda

[austere jolt]

https://fxtwitter.com/broseph_stalin/status/1725481914562121794

[mystic root]

Good video, BBC didn't say that though

[true snow]

That was a single component of the audio, and arguably a very very selective interpretation on his part of message of the protests by the groups he was talking about.

[scarlet orbit]

You might want to rework the phrasing here. The part before the brackets could be misread as you endorsing the attack 😅

[mystic root]

Better?

[mystic root]

Do we know what specific polling he's referring to?

[true snow]

I don't, no

[mystic root]

@wind girder

Re: #israel-palestine message

The purported consulting company has under 100 followers, makes some simplistic and negative claims about Israel in that tweet and its other tweets are pretty sensationalist

[true snow]

Are you saying the map is fake?

[mystic root]

I guess my next question would be wdym by fake? Now, a FDD staffer also tweeted it and FDD has been sympathetic of Israel. Just the other tweet I suspect they got it from the FDD tweet or some other public facing source and have little to do with the Democrats

Do I suspect Israel has mapped out the tunnels? I doubt it. Do I think like what the consulting account says that you can just go in there and get the hostages even if you had and therefore this makes Israel guilty of bad faith? Also no

[true snow]

https://www.gothamgazette.com/city/10486-consultants-advisors-staff-who-is-running-mayoral-candidate-campaigns

They are listed here.

I don't see why the consulting company matters. The map, and who is holding it, is the important part.

[wind girder]

To be clear I wasn’t suggesting that the consulting company was correct in their ideas about the hostage crisis, I simply shared it because they had a high quality image of the map.

[mystic root]

That was what I had gathered. Anyway, I think it's clear that both the tunnels exist and that Israel misleads people how much they know about the tunnels

I do believe Conricus did indeed show this map we saw to a US delegation

[glossy minnow]

@wind girder Just want to add some context here that I think is important for the group to consider. https://twitter.com/robbalaa "we set the narrative" she was just repackaging an original tweet and posted it 6:19 AM · Nov 15, 2023. "still the oil"? I can't take any account seriously that follows Ian Miles Cheong and other far right figures and retweets and tweets/likes those accounts just insane things regularly and appears to be a Vivek stan account. You might want to consider removing her tweet from the #israel-palestine and just grabbing the photo and then linking it back here and post her tweet here if people are inclined to see the source. I'm not sure her rant adds to the channel. I am trying to find a better picture/video for you from the trip you mentioned. I already found bunkers and tunnels made by Hezbollah that the Representatives visited in the North.

[mystic root]

Apparently it's a real group just a bit extreme

#1161401676943609907 message

[wind girder]

Again, I wasn’t suggesting that the consulting company was correct in their ideas about anything, I simply shared it because they had a high quality image of the map. Please also see the update here about the event: #israel-palestine message While only sharing the picture and linking without an embed have been better, discord does not allow uploading files when editing a message so I think it would be best just to leave the embed as is and I'll add a note that it's only being shared because it's a higher quality image.

[glossy minnow]

if we are free to speculate here...I would just ad that political consultants in the United States are typically not non-partisan. my guess is she was fired for her to run to Vivek like that. imo.

[mystic root]

Could explain why the account is small, could have had many clients walk away post that

[sonic hearth]

I'd leave the link with a disclaimer. The image is important

[glossy minnow]

i understand. i didn't finish typing out what I wanted to say before the conversation already covered it and moved on. i've seen a lot of random twitter accounts shared on that channel and it's a terrible habit of mine to dig deeper into them to derive some history and motivation that I often think gets missed in the main channel. I'm still hunting for the Colonel's August talk, clearly there are pictures and video of it somewhere. i'm cautious about accounts that are reactionary and uninformed (the oil reference comes to mind with that one).

[glossy minnow]

tough to know. i hate to speculate but it does seem odd. I found who would have been her boss. I'm tempted to reach out and ask, but not sure it's worth it and what that knowledge would add. the account is very reactionary.

[sonic hearth]

Yeah I'm not sure it would add anything to the discussion here. I might see the point of reaching out for comment if you're going to publish an article but I don't see a need for what we're doing here

[glossy minnow]

100%

[vital furnace]

Minor rumour that one 95 year old IDF reservist got blown up in a Namer/non-descript APC has been going around in the last 3-4 days, particularly today: https://vxtwitter.com/ReemKelani/status/1725182703757054038#m
Probably false because searching עזרא יכין on twitter don't seem to show much results, but does anyone know the source where this originate from? I suspect it might be Arabic in origin because عزرا ياشين gives me loads more results from the 16th onwards on twitter regarding the supposed incident

[quick crag]

there is such a soldier
but he wouldn't be in a namer, that's just for combat
and he's definitely not in combat
as far as I know he doesn't go anywhere near the frontlines

[vital furnace]

Yeah that's what I reckoned, a bit strange this popped up all of a sudden but still

[quick crag]

also they're all quoting him as being different (wrong) ages

[vital furnace]

Oh yeah he's 95 in most news sources yeah?

[trim nebula]

moved, the discussion is propably better suited here:
is the UN Human Rights chief here really saying the civilian victims in the kibbuzim where not intentional?

https://fxtwitter.com/UN/status/1726163905313952240

[scarlet orbit]

I read it exactly the opposite way. That all of these incidents had to be intentional.

[trim nebula]

you are right, read it wrong. thanks

[scarlet orbit]

Happens to all of us.

[bronze crystal]

I do not agree, he said exactly what he said. I think both of your interpretations are not correct, though @scarlet orbit 's interpretation is likely closer to the intended meaning.

[trim nebula]

so he is saying the civilian victims in hospitals and refugee camps were not incidental but intentional?

[scarlet orbit]

Technically, he isn't making any statement about the intent. Just about the dismissal.

[trim nebula]

yep, it suggests some things it doesnt explicitly says. propably not fruitful speculating too much on this

[knotty tundra]

True, but what are the other options, if it's not collateral damage?

[bronze crystal]

There are reasons to believe that in kibbutzim some civilians were killed unintentionally (crossfire, by both IDF and Hamas), and that some were killed intentionally by Hamas (I do not think that Hamas cared much about "collateral damage").
There are reasons to believe that IDF targeted refugee camps/hospitals/ambulances without good enough justification, without much apparent care for "collateral damage". (And it looks to me that Israel tries to implement forced displacement of Gaza population through destruction of infrastructure and somewhat indiscriminate bombing).
Both sides consider that it is ok for civilians to be killed if they were not directly targeted (if target was military).
So, this is a call to stop saying that killing civilians is ok, because they are "collateral damage" as a result of an attack on a military target (or a claimed military target).

[scarlet orbit]

A valid interpretation of the statement would be that they may or may not have been collateral damage, but shouldn't be dismissed for that reason. In the sense that collateral damage can still be disproportionate.

[gray locust]

Very biased video including an interview that IDF killed Israelis
https://fxtwitter.com/nora404404/status/1726139939379630221?t=DyGE1I1jOq-rzhnC2ILygw&s=19

[scarlet orbit]

Many of the claimed references to Israeli media are actually Grayzone articles

[gray locust]

Imagine why I posted it in disinfo

[scarlet orbit]

I just thought that was an interesting thing to point out specifically.

[gray locust]

Danke Server Papa

[glossy minnow]

It's kind of crazy that the head of the agency isn't crystal clear in communication/language. If people are misinterpreting the statement that's a big issue imo.

[mystic root]

I'm reminded of what Timothy McVeigh said, that he dismissed that he killed children by saying they were collateral damage

To me the UN statement is putting Hamas into that same mindset

Not necessarily the most accurate judgment of their state of mind, but I'd say it is hardly the official's intention to absolve Hamas

[mystic root]

UN and Israel have often been at odds so I can't say I'm surprised a statement that Israel will probably take great issue with such as this will come from UN

[knotty tundra]

And not just Hamas. They weren't the ones attacking refugee camps and hospitals. He's clearly adressing both sides.

[mystic root]

Well, yes

[hollow night]

He definitely claimng an equicalency between the civilian victims. If you say that the ones in gaza are collateral damage then the people Hamas murdered are also collateral damage. If you say Hamas intentionally targeted civilians than the civilian victims in Gaza were also intentionally targeted. It's that black and white for him. He is either downplaying the acts of Hamas or claiming there is no collateral damage but only direct murder of civilians when Israel is fighting against an organisation that is well known for using human shields.
There is also no word about all the failed Hamas and PIJ rockets that didn't manage to reach Israel and came down in Gaza instead.
It's obvious that Volker Türk is very very biased in favour of the Palestinians when you look up what else he has written about the conflict.

[scarlet orbit]

I think we're getting way too deep into speculating on the intended meaning now.

[true snow]

Let's keep in perspective that ~11-15,000 Palestinians have died and ~1200 Israelis have died and more are dying every day.

[scarlet orbit]

I'm not sure that's a good argument to make considering the vast gap in capabilities between the sides.

[true snow]

What argument?

[scarlet orbit]

In terms of the absolute amount of suffering, sure, but in terms of the intentionality of it, not so much.

[tepid heart]

The way I interpret the statement (given UN's usual stances) is "collateral or not, this is too much, the violence needs to stop" without particular judgements of the cases listed

[true snow]

I think a big key takeaway is that Israel is the only entity with the power to end the mass death/dying at this point.

[scarlet orbit]

I don't think that's necessarily true.

[tepid heart]

Hamas can always choose to break the ceasefire again, and they have signaled they want to do so at least eventually. Not to mention they & Hezbollah together do at least theoretically possess the capability to overwhelm the Iron Dome (even if they didn't manage to coordinate it this time) so even if Israel puts up a hardened border there's no complete guarantee.

On the other side, a ceasefire now leaves Gaza bisected and Israel in control of a substantial portion of Gaza territory, which doesn't bode that well either in the long term.

[scarlet orbit]

This also ignores that Hamas are still refusing to meet the Israeli demands of releasing the hostages, because Hamas are actively profiting from the mass dying.

[true snow]

Curious as to why? In terms of the raw military assets, the money, the larger geopolitical power in the region, US assets standing by, Israel has much much more ability to project military power than Hamas (as we've seen just by raw infrastructure and human lives destroyed).

[scarlet orbit]

I don't think this is a debate we should get into.

[true snow]

Fair enough

[tepid heart]

Not that I don't agree with the idea of ending the violence --- I'm just very pessimistic of the long term outlooks of that ceasefire.

[twilit granite]

Is that true ? Because I got the idea from just browsing Telegram channels that it was IDF refusing, or at least that they didn't agree, both parties, to how it is supposed to go. What were Israels demands ? And how is hamas profiting from mass dying ?

[queen night]

Hamas is benefiting by making public opinion turn against Israel. The brutality of their attack was part of the strategy to bait Israel into a brutal response.

[true snow]

That seems to be conjecture, also not the channel for this type of stuff.

[queen night]

Using terror for political goals is the academic definition for terrorism, so I wouldn't call that a conjecture. But I'm happy to listen to other hypotheses at #israel-palestine

[glossy minnow]

It is important to consider that every actor in the conflict (every conflict really) has agency. In the case of Hamas they are perfectly capable of handing over every hostage, including the four year old, his sister and his mother the hundreds of others to the Red Cross/Red Crescent right now. The later of which are repeatedly asking to check on the well being of the hostages but are being rebuffed repeatedly. This is more a conversation for #chit-chat or DM's though.

[glossy minnow]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099 is a good starting place regarding Hamas funding. "between 2012 and 2021, Qatar provided $1.49 billion in financial aid to support projects for Palestinian civilians in Gaza" literal cash delivered in suitcases. More details are in US Treasury's sanction notice https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0798 this is really more for #israel-palestine though. probably could use its own chanel tbh.

[twilit granite]

Sure, they make money but I was questioning the part "from mass dying". None of this tells us hamas actively wanted the population of Gaza to die in these numbers. Also, I am inclined to think Israel let hamas strengthen its military capability in order to have a reason to attack and conquer Gaza. This based on some articles already mentioned here but i can repost in case its necessary. Hamas are corrupt, as is the current Israeli government. Neither of them seek the best interest of their population.

[true snow]

https://vxtwitter.com/Shayan86/status/1726429660005675399

[mystic root]

I believe ICU casualty claims were confused with NICU casualty claims. I am not positive anyone survived in the adult ICU

[twilit granite]

Hamas says ceasefire wasn't reached https://t.me/gazaalanpa/2113
What does Israel say on the reasons for a ceasefire not to be reached this time ?

[glossy minnow]

You can listen to Hamas leadership directly say they don't care about Palestinian lives. Hamas is not a political project.

The leadership of Hamas (in their mansions in Qatar , Turkey and Iran) are perfectly happy to sacrifice Palestinian lives.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkZDxJ3JhCA
2. https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1718973338486260097

tbc these videos don't really belong in this channel which is to focus on disinfo (because these are the leaders of Hamas speaking directly stating their intentions) in the current Israel-Hamas 2023 conflict. I'll cross post to the correct channel when I get a chance if they haven't been posted in the past.

[knotty chasm]

If it's to combat the absurd notion that the decision makers of Hamas gives a shit about Palestinian lives then I can't help but see why it shouldn't be in here.

[quick crag]

I assume hamas' refusal to release all Israeli hostages
and stop shooting missiles
(and to stop trying to kill Israelis wouldn't hurt either 🙃)

[quick crag]

saying hamas is corrupt is crazy lol

[pastel apex]

Folks lets bring the political commentary down to 0 here, please and thank you

[cobalt elk]

Hello, I'm trying to verify a claim about the October 7th massacre, which is that the IDF shelled their own citizens in the counter-attack. I'm not saying the claim is necessarily false but it is in any case setting off some red flags in that it's being shared almost exclusively on dodgy websites. The supposed origin of it is a Haaretz article, this one I think : https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-10-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018b-499a-dc3c-a5df-ddbaab290000

Unfortunately it is paywalled, does anyone have access to the article? I can't afford anymore subscriptions

The Haaretz article in question is also exclusively in Hebrew

the supposed quote from it being shared is the following “The commanders in the field made difficult decisions, including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages.” + also if you have any additional info on this topic do not hesitate to @ me

[bronze crystal]

Here is an archive link with a bunch of archived versions of this article: https://archive.li/https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-10-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018b-499a-dc3c-a5df-ddbaab290000

[bronze crystal]

Here is another article on the topic, that contains a claim about a helicopter hitting some festival participants https://archive.is/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000

[trim nebula]

the israeli police released a statement in response, cant find the original: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-police-slams-haaretz-claim-idf-helicopter-may-have-harmed-civilians-on-oct-7/

[cobalt elk]

Interesting, the quote in the article is slightly different than the one circulating "the commanders in the field made difficult decisions - including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead"

[bronze crystal]

Those articles are talking about different claimed events I think. One about a helicopter at the party, another about crossfire in one (or more) of kibbutzim.

[cobalt elk]

Yes I meant the first article you posted, from which the quote I have seen is supposedly lifted!

[distant mortar]

I'm getting this message in Israle website for sometime
https://www.israelhayom.co.il

That red notification

This is the translation of another notification

[bronze crystal]

I get "Enemy aircraft intrusion Beit Hillel, Kfar Giladi, Kfar Yuval, Metula, Menara, Maayan Baruch, Margaliot, Meshgav Am, Kiryat Shmona, Tel Hai".

[distant mortar]

Before sometime I got another message about messile launch

just trying to verify if the alerts are not false

If anyone get anything about these alerts please include here

[bronze crystal]

Oh, I've misunderstood you. Yes, specific wording is different, but the claim is the same.
Google translation of the first archived version of the article is a little different too:
"According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions - including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages - did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz" - but I would suggest asking someone speaking Hebrew to verify this translation.

[trim nebula]

this should be legit if you want to check: https://www.tzevaadom.co.il/en/

[distant mortar]

Hmm, Looks like the alerts are real

Yeah That messile alert I got is actually in Kerem Shalom.

[cobalt elk]

I'd say the claim is majorly the same, but the first version is spun to say that they actively decided to kill the terrorists and the hostages, while the second one is spun to say they decided to kill the terrorists, not knowing whether there were live hostages in the buildings or not, it's a detail, but the first one serves more the narrative of Israeli forces being responsible for more of the deaths in the October 7 attack and not caring about the hostages, which is what the articles I'm reading on the sort of dodgy sites are advancing. Thanks again by the way ! You've been of great help!

I find there is not much hard fact to debunk in this claim in particular. There seems to be some evidence that the Israeli counter attack involved collateral on their own civilians, though the extent of it is difficult to figure out atm. I'm finding the communication around this conflict more subtle in general than the Russia Ukraine stuff, it seems to me it's a bit more about spinning facts one way or another to suit a narrative rather than outright making stuff up, which is interesting.

[strong forum]

Accounts of IDF firing on Israeli civilians seems to have two nodes: 1) Kibbutz Be'eri, where a tank commander was ordered to fire on a house (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza), which, according to Yasmin Porat, one survivor who's been interviewed at least twice, held hostages as well as Hamas fighters, and 2) helicopter firing on people fleeing from Nova festival, first raised by Grayzone (not legit at all imo) and then allegedly separately sourced in the Haaretz article mentioned above.

I think the two incidents easily get intertwined/confused because people from Nova fled to Be'eri, at least according to this thread by Israeli journalist Keren Neubach https://vxtwitter.com/kereneubach/status/1724782876150128702?s=20

[spice tundra]

having read the Hebrew, this is the best translation:
"According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions - including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead - did the IDF regain control of the Kibbutz".

[gaunt marsh]

This has been circulating today, re: IDF firing on Israeli civilians.

It's an Israeli 'reserve pilot' speaking to Haaretz and saying that it was a 'MASS HANNIBAL' situation - but it's not clear if he was even there or just speculating.
https://vxtwitter.com/TheCradleMedia/status/1726625799737123024

[true snow]

Probably informed speculation based on his training.

[spice tundra]

The subtitles to the Cradle clip are accurate, but the segment seems selective to me. the original Haaretz podcast, 9 Nov 2023 edition, from which the Cradle's 1-min clip is cut:
https://www.haaretz.co.il/digital/podcast/weekly/2023-11-09/ty-article-podcast/0000018b-b3a5-d3c1-a39b-bfe55acb0000

they begin talking about Hannibal directive just after 16:00 mins in. the Cradle cut begins at 17:19. prior to this Erez describes the near impossibility of pilots knowing who to target on the ground without intelligence, and says he heard stories of residents on the ground speaking via telephone with pilots in the air to coordinate fire. he then describes his experience of training for the Hannibal directive over the years, saying that "Hannibal" is a single escaping vehicle known to carry a hostage and that technically there were lots of potential 'Hannibal' situations because there were lots of vehicles passing with and without hostages. he does not say or imply, as the accompanying Cradle article frames it (here: https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13145) that Israel 'implemented a mass Hannibal directive.'

[glossy minnow]

What is CradleCo?

[cobalt elk]

Difficult to say, it isn't very transparent. It describes itself as " an online news magazine covering the geopolitics of West Asia from within the region." On their Who We Are (https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/6125) page they say "We are also not owned by any of our donors, and so they have no say over what we write or don’t write." They list their columnists here https://new.thecradle.co/columns/sharmine-narwani

[vital furnace]

The Arabic language of the page is even more opaque, it doesn't even have a Columns page like the English version: https://new.thecradle.co/arabic

[vital furnace]

There are also a few more named regular contributors on the Arabic language version, but not listed in the columns page

• Hawraa Hellany: https://new.thecradle.co/arabic/authors/hawraa
• Mohammad Shedhadeh: https://new.thecradle.co/arabic/authors/mohammad-shehadeh
• Malek Khoury: https://new.thecradle.co/arabic/authors/malek-khoury
  Plus a few more others that only started writing this year. Maybe it's an Al Jazeera Eng and Al Jazeera Arab thing where they are under different management?
  But on the whole the "Become an author" link on the top right is what makes it a bit suspect... https://new.thecradle.co/account/author

Damn it looks like the English version has been around way longer than the Arabic version, first English article was 15th July 2021 (https://new.thecradle.co/category/news?page=1174), first Arabic article was 10th Dec 2022 (https://new.thecradle.co/arabic/category/news?page=511)

[glossy minnow]

Several of the authors listed on the site have self published books. They also seem to be recycling a lot of single sourced or poorly sourced stories as breaking news. Odd to me that as a news journalism site they don't have a mast head, etc. Also this author on the site...seems to be very close to the government of Iran and other autocracies https://www.salon.com/2019/04/28/sharmine-narwani-on-the-end-of-the-syrian-war-and-the-post-imperial-middle-east/

Website is hosted around Amazon and Cloudflare. Only registered a few days before that first article dropped 2021-07-12

[gray locust]

Maybe they changed the host, they're older

[austere jolt]

I'm aware the source is a known disinfo agent. Does anyone know the context/translation for this?

https://vxtwitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1726343210400960967?

[bronze crystal]

Original source for translation (I guess it is a propaganda account): https://twitter.com/intifada/status/1726339025253081400
And their article about it: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/watch-israeli-children-sing-we-will-annihilate-everyone-gaza

Archived copy of the kann_news post that was the original source of the video: https://archive.is/2023.11.19-134658/https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1726158106453742004
Archived copy of the page on kan.org.il for this song: https://web.archive.org/web/20231119142812/https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/culture/615229/

[austere jolt]

thank you

[timber pelican]

Snopes did a piece on it: https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/
They say it's real, made by a civil advocacy group.

[gray locust]

https://fxtwitter.com/desmukh/status/1727004597846425933?t=sR7AEyguz2d0QY0z9wjQbg&s=19

[sonic hearth]

The Wix thing is kind of weak. It's a big company. The more interesting thing is the fake website itself

If anyone chooses to go to the website it's extremely graphic btw

[gray locust]

Stock Photos. Yes, extremely graphic.

[sonic hearth]

If this is indeed an Israeli creation I would be weapons-grade pissed if my dead family member was pictured on here.

[gray locust]

When I say what I think you will time out me

[sonic hearth]

Same

[cobalt elk]

Warning: description of graphic and violent content in my spoilers. I am working on evaluating a site that is covering the conflict from a pro-palestinian perspective, and I would like to avoid looking at stuff myself if possible so I'm mining some potential info here. Several articles on the site in question advance the perspective that photos released by Israel that purported to show ||bodies of Israeli victims in the October 7 attack were later deleted because they actually showed the burned bodies of Hamas attackers (presumably burned by Israeli forces)||. Referring to when Gilad Erdan, the Israeli UN ambassador displayed a QR code linking to a google doc (October 26). The original source of the claim is the gray zone (Max Blumenthal) ||https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/||. Relevant passage is : ||Just over twelve hours after Ambassador Erdan promoted the supposed Hamas atrocity photos at the UN, the Google Drive file contained only one brief video. Among the mysteriously disappeared photos was the image of the dumpster filled with burned bodies. Had it been deleted because it showed Hamas fighters torched by a Hellfire missile, and not Israelis “burned to death” by Hamas?||

Does anyone know any additional info about these supposedly disappeared photos and their interpretation?

[gray locust]

You're aware that this is Max Blumenthal?

[cobalt elk]

yep

To be clear: I'm asking here because the info is suspicious! But I'm looking for ways to conclude, if possible, that it is demonstrably false.

[scarlet orbit]

Even though it's not a headline, Betteridge's law probably applies here.

[shell steeple]

Are these the same videos that were linked on a website that the Israel Twitter posted a few weeks back? It used Google Drive to host videos from the 7th as a means of documentation. This gives off a vibe of trying to spread the same videos and photos but using a different framing?

[cobalt elk]

So far, looking at regular news sites, I am unable to find any account that the QR code shown by Gilad Erdan linked to anything else other than the "brief video" that Blumenthal said replaced the photos on the google doc, but I don't think it's been covered much

[cobalt elk]

This article also confirms that there were photos as described ||https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-gives-out-qr-code-linking-to-images-of-hamas-atrocities-ahead-of-un-session/||

[cobalt elk]

The QR code linked to a Google Drive, yes, but I think the drive is no longer available. I've also checked for archived links.

[cobalt elk]

yeah it's gone, checking for archives

[cobalt elk]

the archived link I've found is bugging out but this site contains some of the same photos as those in the widgets posted by the ambassador, I've been able to ascertain as much! If I can just get the page to stabilize then I'll be able to look at it properly, thank you.

[shell steeple]

I recall that already like a day in when that site was up it was being flagged by Google Drive for the links and was also struggling with stability

[cobalt elk]

Yes google drive links in it read that they have been removed because of terms of service violations. It's late here, I'll look more tomorrow.

[vital furnace]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barak-causes-storm-by-telling-cnn-israel-helped-build-some-spaces-beneath-shifa/

How do you think about the Ehud Barak's claims recently? I know Al Shifa did have an expansion before 2005 under Israeli administration of Gaza but how does the claim they built bunkers in the hospital complex compare?

[sharp hawk]

I'm not exactly sure this is disinfo really

[vital furnace]

You know what, maybe I had a bit of a lapse since I post here the most, maybe repost to #israel-palestine?
The most that can be construed as disinfo might be how it plays into the "Israel created Hamas" narrative? More the framing of things than anything
Anyways Barak's office has issued a statement: https://www.facebook.com/100044579942844/posts/915105073318816/?mibextid=WC7FNe

[cobalt elk]

The photo described by The Gray Zone is still available on the website

[scarlet orbit]

@shell steeple @cobalt elk, I deleted your messages that contained links to the website or links to thumbnails of the images.

[cobalt elk]

Oh I'm sorry, I thought spoilering was enough

[shell steeple]

Apologies, I lapsed there

[scarlet orbit]

Don't worry! It's just that we take exposure to graphic imagery very seriously. This is a case where we don't want to accidentally encourage or help people to seek out these images. Thank you for being so understanding though!

[brave quiver]

So, as long as someone puts a graphic picture on a tweet and framed it with disinfo, we will not cover it here?

[gray locust]

Discord doesn't allow this and shuts down servers who don't handle it. We have some rules and work with spoilers. Read through it. If you're unsure, ask a moderator.

[scarlet orbit]

There is some nuance to it, so it's hard to generalise. For example, if there's a research purpose attached to the topic, we're more likely to allow a link that contains graphic images. But if someone just goes: "Guuuyyyys, have you seen this gross video?", that's never okay. In this case, the images in question are extraordinarily graphic in nature, so we're being extra careful.

[sonic hearth]

Additionally, if it's truly worthy of research, you can remove the graphic part of the image as bellingcat has done in certain articles (see https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/10/20/an-execution-near-sev-lake-armenia-azerbaijan/)

The well being of the people in this discord server will always come first

[gray locust]

director of shifa maybe arrested by idf

i clicked the source away, i have to look, here the copy

דיווח פלסטיני: צה"ל עצר את מנהל בית החולים שיפא
הפלסטינים דיווחו כי כוחות צה"ל עצרו הלילה את מנהל המתחם הרפואי שיפא בעזה, מוחמד אבו סלמיה, וכן כמה אנשי רפואה. בנוסף, לפי דיווח פלסטיני, 15 בני אדם נהרגו בתקיפת צה"ל בשכונת ארמידה בחאן יונס. (עינב חלבי)

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/category/184#h1lmwpnv6

[strange kelp]

Al Jazeera also reporting this https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/23/al-shifa-hospital-director-arrested-by-israeli-army-in-gaza

[quick crag]

it was confirmed by the idf

https://t.me/amitsegal/29884
Joint statement to the IDF and Shin Bet spokesmen:

The director of Shifaa Hospital was arrested and transferred to the Shin Bet for interrogation after much evidence was revealed that the hospital, under his direct management, served as the headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas.

The terrorist organization Hamas used many resources, including electricity, in order to maintain the tunnel system it built under the hospital, in addition, Hamas stored many weapons in and around the hospital.

Furthermore, after the massacre carried out by the terrorist organization Hamas on October 7, the organization used the hospital as a refuge for its terrorists and even took Israeli hostages there who were kidnapped on the day of the massacre. A pathological report confirmed that the murder of Corporal Noa Marciano took place on the hospital grounds.

In the hospital under his management there was extensive terrorist activity by the terrorist organization Hamas. A decision regarding his continued detention will be made in accordance with the findings of the investigation and the hospital manager's involvement in terrorist activity.

[gray locust]

Thx for the translation

[true snow]

So they are still claiming it was the headquarters

[bronze crystal]

Here starting at 0:56 the IDF spokesperson says: "What we are getting now is the network of the tunnels. We got a command and control system room in a tunnel 100m from the hospital underneath a school" https://fxtwitter.com/TreyYingst/status/1727467320321380772

[quick crag]

actually the Hebrew original can be translated as "was used as a headquarters" not "the"
(the translation I sent is from telegram so it's not always 100% accurate)

[true snow]

Ah, thank you for clarifying

[cobalt elk]

I wish we knew who was behind the website, if it was linked to by the Israeli Twitter account, that means they validate the content in it "officially" to some extent, but there is absolutely no info on who is actually compiling it

[cobalt elk]

Okay I've found the official Israeli Twitter linking to the most recent version of the site. Which gives it more official endorsement.

[gaunt marsh]

hamas.com had been available and 'parked' for years until 17 AUG 2023, then it looks like someone bought it. They pointed it to wix.com on 08 NOV 2023. Owner info has been carefully private since the domain was first created in 1999. :/

I think this was already said but the fact that Wix is an Israeli company should probably not be viewed as an indication of anything.

[shell steeple]

Given that some of the videos used are bodycam videos from the event, the question is - and I believe it was asked last time too - who's got access to those besides the IDF?

[quick crag]

can bodycam footage be accessed remotely if they are connected beforehand?
(genuine question)

[gray locust]

https://fxtwitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1727741155889050111?t=tw9agDsyO05s6RNaHwC1Hg&s=19

[mystic root]

So do we know the Hamas body cams are from Hamas that didn't make it back?

[mystic root]

They really might have had a time window to upload

[cobalt elk]

Yeah that's a clear disinfo site imo

Well, based on what I've read about it, I haven't actually checked it myself

[shell steeple]

No. But I've not dug into trying to find the first source for the videos as it's more than a bit taxing to wade through that material

[cobalt elk]

Yeah it's kind of the thing about any disinfo tied to material like this, no one wants to verify.

[shell steeple]

GoPro has live streaming features and with HERO5 or later versions you can also auto upload - but based on what I can find it requires the unit to also be charging.

https://community.gopro.com/s/article/Auto-upload-your-footage-to-the-cloud?language=en_US

There's various sources referenced online for bodycam footage being published - South First Responders is mentioned in a CNN article with three clips in it, there was another longer one that CNN got from the IDF. I did some brief digging but can't find any news outlets mentioning videos being released by Hamas via their Telegram - the only sources for videos I see are either IDF or South First Responders.

But this all falls under propaganda rather than disinfo. The stock images used on the other site is clearly not in relation to the attack but the videos are very real.

[queen marsh]

Confused by the claim and came her for clarification.

Are they claiming the underground room is on the hospital premises, or near the hospital premises, or connected by tunnel to the premises? Furthermore do we have any more leads on the bunked once built there? I saw reports that it was cemented over ages ago.

[wooden anchor]

it requires the unit to also be charging.

I have a couple of go pros, and this is true.

[static pagoda]

Tunnels NOT built by Israel? https://VXtwitter.com/imshin/status/1727553607757619658

[queen marsh]

Qatar announced the expansion of the hospital in 2015 and construction ended 2016. At that point Israel was already claiming for at least 7 years that there was a Hamas command center under the hospital, so it makes little sense to claim it was built then. The claim goes back to at least 2009 when Israeli sources claimed that Hamas was using the Israel-built basements of the hospital to hide. But they also characterized the reinforced basement as part of the administrative operations of the hospital, including a laundry: https://www.haaretz.com/2009-01-12/ty-article/sources-hamas-leaders-hiding-in-basement-of-israel-built-hospital-in-gaza/0000017f-f5ba-ddde-abff-fdffb4dd0000

[twilit granite]

However, they have fired people over pro Palestinian posts on social media before
https://www.timesofisrael.com/irish-wix-employee-fired-for-inflammatory-posts-about-israel-hamas-war/

[scarlet orbit]

How does that relate to the message you're replying to?

[gray locust]

It shows that it's more unlikely that the site is made by Palestinian

[little drift]

Wix provides website development/hosting services though, so everyone could use it for this purpose

[boreal tiger]

Many tweets are going around saying a Palestinian ambush was staged, e.g., https://fxtwitter.com/NuryVittachi/status/1727851651900620813

The report in question comes from October 12. It seems strange that the arrested man is putting on clothes, without a blindfold and no visible guards at 1:47. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIraRTTpErk

[bronze crystal]

My interpretation and speculation: Under the hospital they have found only this small extension of a Hamas built underground tunnel network, with 4(?) small rooms, and a dead end - possibly recently built, or maybe was in process of expansion.
This tunnel extension is most likely connected to tunnels outside the hospital territory (to the top-right on the map).

No command centers in or under the hospital were found or shown (except for that laptop with a "tactical radio" and CD/DVDs).
Maybe this "tunnel complex" under the hospital is so small, that he felt a need to claim that they have found a "command and control system room" (room with a laptop?) in a tunnel 100m away from the hospital under a school.

[queen marsh]

That's really shameless... I mean it's Fox, but stil...

[twilit granite]

I think it gives a message that they aren't neutral even though they are big company.

[bronze crystal]

https://fxtwitter.com/IDF/status/1727712108421280115
Take a note of what is shown to be under the bed - some common home repair tools, not weapons.
(not sure if this message has place in this server - there is nothing to investigate here, just an example of IDF using an image that does not support the claim, as a supporting evidence)

[scarlet orbit]

I think the intended meaning is that the weapons were found there but then moved onto the other bed by the IDF. I would interpret the second picture as an illustration of the space the weapons were allegedly hidden in.

On a side note, is storing power tools inside a child's bed common?

[glossy minnow]

What child doesn’t have soldering equipment under the bed.

[scarlet orbit]

I'm more concerned about the angle grinder.

[bronze crystal]

If they have small apartment - why not store tools inside a bed?
I remember having easy access to tools like that in living rooms when I was a child - though we had no beds that can be comfortably used as storage. As far as I know, my father stores various tools (woodworking and other tools, including powered cutting tools) inside his bed (now that he has a bed that can be opened in a similar way to those beds on this photo).

[bronze crystal]

No, I do not think it is common, but I do not find anything surprising in that.

[gaunt tangle]

honestly the power tools do raise questions about parenting ability but are probably meaningless when analyzing hamas

[tepid heart]

Yeah, storage space is pretty interchangeable in a small living space

[glossy minnow]

Indeed. Very common for a place that isn’t supposed to have ammunition making equipment to find it under a child’s bed. Everyone knows that it’s just tools.

[bronze crystal]

Can you point out the ammunition making equipment you are talking about? (Maybe I'm misreading your reply)

[queen marsh]

I assume they're placed in the photo op to imlly they were being used for tunnel construction/maintenence

The IDF is not documenting the discovery of these weapons as they were found. Requires some credulity to assume that what they're claiming to find was indeed there and not placed there for the photo op.

[gray locust]

It's so clean. No dust, no nothing, the edges, the ground.

[gray locust]

Does it fit?

[gaunt tangle]

regarding the discovery of weapons: nobody is going to present seized weapons in the exact state they were found

any weapon seizure (regardless of the idf) is going to end up presented as a pile/row of guns because it'll be whoever seized collectingthem and placing it in a central point for documentation/counting

[queen marsh]

I disagree with the idea that they could not document each weapon in its place. It is not particularly impractical or beyond IDF capabilities.
I also don't think the testimony of IDF spokespersons are prima facie credible without sufficient documentation corroborating them. Blanket assertions about insurgent tactics are not an alibi for each and every photo op (IMO). Just my view of these photo ops.

[sly gale]

While there is fair cause to give an extra eye to things like this, it's exceedingly rare for militaries or law enforcement to post pictures of stuff like that still in place, they tend to make it all fancied or bunched up for photos. That alone isn't a strong indicator for accuracy.

[gray locust]

So the postings that they found it in that bed are probably misinterpreted?

[sly gale]

I wouldn't say it's misinterpreted, as mentioned Littered could have a fair worry as it's something we see exploited a lot too. Although, you'd be very hard pressed to find similar imagery where they're taking the photos of things still in place. Focusing on just that doesn't really lean either way.

We'd need info outside the image itself to make solid conclusions there

[gray locust]

Yes, they always pose it, in other countries, too. But the question must be who started the " it was in the bed" thing.

[sly gale]

As in like the act of doing it or the claim itself? The claim is presented in the tweet above, not sure if that's the first mention of that incident but it appears to be.

[gray locust]

Good morning. I didn't read the tweet.

I be honest, I don't think that fits into the bed.

[sly gale]

The claim is under the bed and inside bedrooms, not inside the bed, small but important key detail.

Unless those box things are like literally part of the bed you could consider that in the underside I suppose

[queen marsh]

The strong indicator for accuracy is the uncontroverted evidence that they have manipulated evidence for such photos before international press, as documented in this thread.

[sly gale]

There is nothing presented with this specific image that would indicate that is the case

We have no surrounding information about it that would indicate as such either, as we have in the cases you reference

[queen marsh]

@gray locust Also I don't think it is comparable to situations you referenced where police or other authorities confiscate contraband and line it up for photo presentation at a station. These are not weapons confiscated from individuals and presented for an image at a police station. The IDF deliberately chose to lay them out on what they allege is a child's bed with the specific claim that they were collected in that room and from underneath that bed.

[sly gale]

Yes

[queen marsh]

My entire point is about their claim. We have no surrounding information that indicates they found those weapons were they claim they did. That's why I brought up the issue of documentation before moving the weapons.

[sly gale]

There's a bunch of ways this makes sense still. You send in a bunch of soldiers to clear a room and you have a PA team waiting outside, wouldn't it be a bit deceptive if they repackaged everything under the bed after taking it out to make a PA shot?

[sly gale]

And yes this is fair, their claim and it's on them to present as such, this is a bit of a failing point to hold up as factually meaning the opposite though. This can break down a bunch of ways.

How likely is it that any of the soldiers entering the room originally had a recording device or a camera? If so, what are the chances that their PA process allows this specific footage or imagery to be released over say, imagery that a dedicated PA team took?

Do they have a dedicated camera person or team with them? Is this person with the team as they're entering and searching rooms, or are they brought in after the fact?

[wary jewel]

They did get caught replacing things after the IDF walk through and layout at Al Shifa MRI complex before Fox News and another reporter were brought in. So it wouldn't be unprecedented

[sly gale]

Indeed they have, hence why I've consistently oriented my point around information being present with the image or surrounding information
"They did it before" is not surrounding information, in every other case, as in the ones you referenced, we have surrounding information that is greater than "they did it before".

For example with Al Shifa we have a great quantity of footage and imagery that can be used to cross reference imagery and footage presented alongside specific claims

[wary jewel]

You just said it would be deceptive if they repackaged it, but they have done it in the past. Nothing about this particular release though makes me suspect that it isn't at least representative of what they found, even if slightly moved for safety

[sly gale]

Yes, it would be deceptive if they took everything out then put it back in place for the photo. I've never said they haven't, in fact, I've recognized they have, I stated there is nothing present in this specific case that would state either or is accurate or false.

[queen marsh]

These are good questions that could shed some light on the legitimacy of the photo ops - because they shed light on the modus operandi of IDF PA. Which is why it's entirely legitimate to point to a previous cases that demonstrate a willingness to misrepresent the facts at the scene for the cameras. A "terrorist" calendar and rearranged weapons for photo ops does not necessarily indicate that the claims are being entirely fabricated, but they're certainly important when considering the balance of evidence.

[sly gale]

I've recognized this, and I've also stated very patently that using this to factually state that any given example, with absolutely 0 surrounding information other than the picture, is inaccurate, is not a very solid point.
In every other case that I'm sure you can bring up, there is more than simply the assumption that it is that because they did it before, there is actual information or data we can present to grade or outright state that it is inaccurate.

[queen marsh]

I haven't done that, all I've said is that it has bearing on accuracy. Maybe we're talking past each other.

[bronze crystal]

I get an impression, that I should not have shared that post here with my observation. There is not enough data to confirm that the claim in the twitter post is disinfo.
I do consider that the post is an example of well crafted propaganda. And the photo of an open bed with tools is used to make it more believable that the gun with ammo were found below the second bed.

[sly gale]

Propaganda would absolutely be an accurate term to use here, and regardless I think it's still good to share the post here, just have to wait for surrounding info if we get some for a solid conclusion

[true snow]

https://vxtwitter.com/TreyYingst/status/1727377530112328050

[digital basin]

ℹ️ FYI: https://vxtwitter.com/SweMFA/status/1727803590780113013
Basically, PM Ulf Kristersson apparently wanted to refer to international law (🇸🇪: Folkrätt) with regard to Israel's right to defend itself, but decided to shorten what he said on the fly, just saying the syllable "folk" (🇬🇧: people) He did not refer to genocide (🇸🇪: Folkmord).

[queen marsh]

Does anyone know if N12 is considered reputable in Israel? This is a report N12 alleging that the newly released Israeli hostages will be kept in isolation for treatment, interviewed by the Shin Bet and instructed on how to handle media interviews. Cannot vouch for the Google translation: https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-israel/2023_q4/Article-288daa79472fb81027.htm

[gaunt tangle]

https://vxtwitter.com/Elad_Si/status/1728032906843464050?s=20 thread explaining how it's ongoing in full detail

wouldnt be surprised if they were kept in a special area controlled by shin bet for both health checks+not saying anything in an interview that could risk the life of remaining hostages

hostage situations are always risky, and having them in the middle of a war just makes it harder

[true snow]

As well as not saying anything that doesn't reinforce "the line"

[scarlet orbit]

@true snow I deleted your message as it contained uncensored dead bodies.

[true snow]

Ah sorry, my bad

[queen marsh]

My impression is that it was for intel gathering as they were likely kept in tunnels as with previous hostages. Possible source for actionable intelligence. But also politically the Netanyahu government has been in a battle with hostages' families and hostage statements undermining his war policy (not that Shin Bet isn't independent, but that may play into the policy.)

Reason I picked this channel to share is that the article posted specifically mentions the instance where the freed elderly hostage woman made comments that were ultimately of propaganda for the Qassam Brigades, and this elicited responses from top Israeli officials who condemned the interview.

[queen marsh]

Thanks for corroboration btw

[true snow]

Content warning. This posts contains graphic images of ||disfigured dead bodies||

||https://vxtwitter.com/bidetmarxman/status/1728163260954775685||

Might be potential disinfo

[glossy minnow]

What are you implying here?

[true snow]

I have no doubt they will not want certain things said or implied during public/media appearances. Anything along the lines of "we were treated well" insofar as food/medical care/no torture or beatings, anything that could be interpreted as criticism of the bombing campaign, things critical of the IDF/Netanyahu

[scarlet orbit]

Do you have any evidence of that?

[gaunt tangle]

i just think shin bet is trying to reduce the risks any hostage says something wrong and risks the life of the other 200 or so still in gaza (especially given a few are split from their families which remain there)

[true snow]

Of course not. I don't have direct evidence of that happening in this situation. I would be surprised if such a thing would ever become publicly known if it did.

We've seen a large degree of spin, media shaping, message control with regards to all aspects of this conflict so far on the part of Israel. I have little reason to assume that wouldn't extend to the freed hostages as well. It's well within the realm of feasibility.

[gaunt marsh]

This theory seems... pretty out there. But the NYTimes, at least, seems to have reported that bodies were possibly taken from Al-Shifa and returned later for burial in the mass graves we've been seeing pictures of. (Al-Shifa is speculation, but referenced in this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/23/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave.html)

[digital basin]

It could also be that Hamas has threatened them that if they blab, they'll kill the other hostages.

[gaunt marsh]

And Times of Israel references the IDF spokesman kind of dodging the question, apparently (about the bodies being removed): https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-spokesman-dodges-question-on-alleged-removal-of-bodies-from-shifa-hospital/

[azure gust]

Meanwhile, the Palestinian released prisoners are not allowed to talk to any media, celebrate or hold any gatherings, they can get a fine of up to around 17.000 EUR.

I think whatever the media is forbidden to talk about, also is part of disinfo and of Israel government controlling the dominant narrative.

The fact that many Palestinian children are detained and "often suffer physical, psychological and sexual abuse, according to Save the Children", does not serve their narrative of them being the good guys, and Hamas the bad guys.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/israel-bans-distributing-candy-over-freeing-palestinian-prisoners?nid=320791&topic=Israel-Palestine%2520war&fid=490626

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/24/who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday

[true snow]

That could be possible, though I would be surprised that Hamas would just kill their only leverage, as morbid as that sounds.

[digital basin]

They don't have to, they just have to scare the hostages enough.

[true snow]

True

[gaunt tangle]

also we need to remember that human beings aren't perfectly rational too

[queen marsh]

Probably would be redundant to debunk the claim that "Hamas is worse than Nazis because Nazis didn't enjoy killing Jews" from the likes of Douglass Murray (among others). No OSINT needed for that one...

[boreal tiger]

Thanks

[digital basin]

Checked the account out, seems... iffy...

[true snow]

It's not just about checking the account, it's digging deeper, seeing if the information is coming elsewhere (a place more or less reputable)

[sonic hearth]

I had read some analysis too (I have hunted for the link and I am unable to find it, sadly) that hostages haven't had access to media, information, etc, and have no idea about the full scale of what happened Oct 7 and after. Some may have huge amounts of deceased family, friends, and community members, and that information needs to be broken to them carefully

[little drift]

Yes, especially since some of them are children who lost their parents and don’t know about it yet. Not exposing them to press immediately after release seems like a good decision for their psychological safety

[sonic hearth]

Did we ever determine if that woman speaking about her hostage relatives on Al Jazeera was truly unexpectedly confronted with a Hamas member? Because if that is the kind of media environment families are facing...

[limpid rose]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-issues-protocol-for-treatment-of-freed-captives-after-press-event-slammed/

It is also related to the uproar following Yocheved Lifshitz’s press conference after she was released last month. The Health Ministry then issued a protocol for the the treatment of those released from captivity, according to which they will receive treatment in a separate ward, to which only their relatives, medical staff and security officials will have access.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-13/ty-article/.premium/tel-aviv-hospital-spokesperson-summoned-after-freed-hostages-presser/0000018b-c9fb-df9a-ab8b-dffb47b50000

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ichilov-spokesperson-leaves-post-after-controversial-press-conference-with-freed-hostage/

[sonic hearth]

Thanks for the links. I feel like all of these things can be true at once (the government is concerned, freed hostages don't know the full scale of the situation).

[limpid rose]

Of course. This is just one aspect

[queen marsh]

Please reshare the clip, I can check.

[digital basin]

New probable narrative on the horizon, "Israel false-flagging terrorist attacks in the west": https://fxtwitter.com/Shayan86/status/1728243494106681562

[twilit granite]

https://t.me/WeRedEvilsOG/359
Perhaps a job of the We Red Evils hacker group since they published it on their Telegram channel.

[glossy minnow]

#israel-palestine message posted over here.

[spice temple]

https://www.aljazeeramubasher.net/news/politics/2023/11/16/مواجهة-على-الجزيرة-مباشر-بين-والدة IIRC this was the most complete footage we found.

[quick crag]

Israel very likely has taken the bodies for DNA testing to see if there are dead hostages buried there

[quick crag]

"By telephone, Zaher Jabareen - responsible for the prisoner file in the Hamas movement"

same link as #1161401676943609907 message

https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2023/10/24/زاهر-جبارين-الأسرى-غير-الإسرائيليين

[queen marsh]

He is indeed a member of Hamas' politburo, in charge of prisoner affairs. May be involved in negotiations as well.

[austere jolt]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/trump-no-hatred-like-the-palestinian-hatred-of-israel-and-jews-and-probably-the-other-way-around-also/

[queen marsh]

Seems more like opinion than disinfo from him. Weird comments from him as usual.

[austere jolt]

Figured propaganda would also fall within this thread similar to #disinfo-and-propaganda

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/RespondCrisis/status/1728855237019234469

VERY egregious mistranslation from the BBC.

For the record it is literally impossible to mishear the long sentence she said, it did not contain anything like the words on the screen.

[azure gust]

Interesting in the light of BBC journalists that accused the broadcaster of bias (might have been shared here already).

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/23/as-israel-pounds-gaza-bbc-journalists-accuse-broadcaster-of-bias

[queen marsh]

I truly wonder who "translated" that interview for them. Very clearly a bad actor, either seeking to smear the released minors as terrorists or promote Hamas as some kind of heroes. The rest of the translation is flawed and outright omits the sentence about constant humiliation.

[sonic hearth]

Thank you, but I think to settle if she was ambushed by this commenter, we'd need to know from either someone behind the scenes at Al Jazeera or if she herself said she didn't know he would be brought on.

[queen marsh]

I posted about this above. You'll find the real translation of her words in the post.

[bronze crystal]

The 4th row, about prisoners with mental health issues being tortured - I'm not sure that the translation in green is correct (doubt is based on differences in length and google translate results) - would like to see a confirmation.
For other rows I do not have reasons to doubt the translation in the green column (google translate results are closer to translations in green than to translations in red).

[queen marsh]

She says الحالات النفسية" - "The mental cases" - and it is translated into the much longer "prisoners with mental health issues" to make sense in English.

The written sentence is more like "Even the mental cases are tormented, violated and humiliated like the regular prisoners." They seem to have added the bit about collapse, as she does not say it in the video either (I should have checked that before sharing.)

So their correction to the BBC's completely egregious captions also contains a mistranslation. The rest is accurate though.

Let me do a more literal translation here. If I put something in [] that means it's a little ambgious thanks to the informal grammar of the dialect. Words in () are implied.

1. At 10 in the morning the Jews told us there was a deal and shut (the cells) on us.
2. Then they hit us with tear weapons.
3. We the (female) prisoners [in humiliation/are humiliated and] wear our headscarves 24/7. No one knows anyone.
4. Even the mental cases are tormented, [violated/?] and humiliated like the regular prisoners.
5. No one helps anyone, no one stands up for anyone.
6. It's been a month of them shutting (the cells) on us. They turned off the electricity on us. We were [about to/going to] die from cold when winter weather came.
7. They sprayed us with pepper and ran off to die inside the prison."

That should be almost to the word accurate.

[bronze crystal]

Thank you. For the 3rd row - Is it headscarves or are they forced to wear some headgear that covers their faces (asking because of the following "No one knows anyone")?

[digital basin]

Re: point 1, doesn't it sound biased on part of the released prisoner (not questioning what happened)?

But yeah, apparently subpar translation from the beeb.

[queen marsh]

So that's a bit ambigious to me. She uses a word for a type of headscarf but can also be used to described other types of coverings. I think the two possibilities are:

1. They had some kind of head gear on imposed by prison
2. (More likely) they had to keep their headscarves on because they had no privacy from male guards.

[strong forum]

BBC now saying the translation was supplied by an agency. https://vxtwitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1728913264317452408?s=20

[digital basin]

I have so many questions not related to the translation.

[digital basin]

Agency in Gaza?

[strong forum]

This is a woman who was held in Israeli detention, so I think she is returning to the West Bank.

[queen marsh]

I definitely figured it was a freelancer or agency (as an occasional freelance translator). An in-house translator would lose their job over it. BBC should at least do a machine translation review if they aren't working with a trusted agency.

Still wonder on intent. For me the two contenders are: "I need to paint this released girl as a terrorist fanatic" or "I need to point out she's only free thanks to the resistance's efforts"

[digital basin]

Or both, have the distranslation (look mom, I made a new word (etymology the same as for mis-/disinfo, only for translations)) ambiguous to polarise further depending on which side you're on.

For future reference, I speak Finnish, Swedish, and English, and understand German, Norwegian, and Danish.

[azure gust]

A letter written to the Al-Qassam Brigades by Israeli hostage Danielle on behalf of herself and her daughter Emilia.

Seeing this circulate on social media, not sure if it is disinfo or accurate.
https://twitter.com/Aldanmarki/status/1729179521771798978

[frank apex]

https://nitter.net/Aldanmarki/status/1729181402686722403#m

Does not exactly instill confidence, to say the least

[knotty tundra]

She and here daughter were still captives when it was written and some of their family members likely still are. Even if she wrote it, it's incredibly difficult to say how much of it was of her own free will, or how truthful she was being.

[scarlet orbit]

You summed up what I was going to write a lot better than I would have.

[knotty tundra]

I did my best.

[azure gust]

That's true. But still shows a very different sentiment than Palestinian children being released from Israeli prisons: tortured, abused and traumatized.

[scarlet orbit]

I'm not aware of Israel publishing thank you letters from released Palestinian prisoners.

[sonic hearth]

I understand you want to compare the two and keep us focused on the plight of the Palestinians. However, here we evaluate each claim on a stand alone basis.

[little drift]

One can just as well argue that forcing her to write such a letter was a form of psychological torture by itself

[sonic hearth]

Yeah, which is why I think this is a dead end for open source investigation as it currently stands

[digital basin]

Yep. Hamas et al. holding the safety of remaining hostages over freed hostages heads in order to prevent them from "blabbing" is a clear possibility given the nature of the acts on Oct 7th.

[stone portal]

https://fxtwitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1729185397303914672 its spreading around a lot, of course

[gray locust]

Sorry, but can you stay a bit more neutral and not quoting this misogynistic grifter

[digital basin]

Sure. According to this report, Danielle Aloni has 4 family members remaining as hostages, meaning that she might very well have written the letter under duress, i.e. complied to keep them safe. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hamas-israel-hostages-tell-loved-ones-stories-rcna119509

Or is NBC also a problematic source?

[gray locust]

Thank you. Is there any information how fluent she is in Hebrew?

[digital basin]

No.

[gray locust]

I found out she from Argentina. Just think to keep that in mind when there are so e spelling errors.

[queen marsh]

My impressio. so far has been that there were no major abuses (after of course the illigitmate kidnapping and violence against the civilian hostages in the first place), except perhaps malnutrition.

Specific things like "thank you" letters are in the realm of possiblity, but no reason to give that benefit of doubt until duress is ruled out.

Overall treatment and non-hostile interactions between kidnappers and hostages is being reported even by those not under any the duress of having relatives or compatriots still held (such as the Thai workers' sister cited somewhere in this thread.)

I think it's significant to discuss the ramifications of or reality behind their testimonies to some extent because it does have an impact on both sides' morale, so there is a likely psychological warfare aspect to the releases and also to the fears of abuse of hostages.
I think from that standpoint it makes more sense for Hamas to have treated the hostages as well as they could rather than abuse them and then coerce them into claiming humane treatment. It's actually not the first time they have done that, kidnap civilians and "graciously" free them.

[glossy minnow]

I think you need to reconsider your conclusions, especially the first one. I dont think the evidence supports that conclusion. We do know of:

1. Denial of food
2. Denial of water
3. No access to bathrooms for extended periods.
4. Forced media recordings
5. Denial of medical care
6. Separation of parents and children
7. The psychological damage of hostages directly witnessing family members murders on 10/7 and lack of treatment.
8. Sexual Violence.
9. Extended captivity in isolation and lack of sun and fresh air.
10. Denial of access to Red Cross/Red Crescent to check on the welfare of the hostages.

Also keep in mind some or all of the above applied to hostages as young as three.

Like Subtleknife said without further details from Danielle Aloni directly we can’t know more about the legitimacy of this letter.

[strong forum]

Sorry, how do we know of 1, 2, 3? Or 8? (Specifically about the hostages, you mean?) Was there an interview I missed? (V possible, as I know my social media bubble is skewed.)

[little drift]

Some testimonies from families of released hostages here https://www.timesofisrael.com/irregular-meals-benches-as-beds-details-of-captivity-emerge-as-some-hostages-freed/, in particular related to 1,3,5,9

[gaunt tangle]

one additional addendum:

The fullest image yet of life under Hamas captivity was revealed by 85-year-old Yocheved Lifshitz, a hostage who was freed before the current truce.

her husband (Oded) is still in Hamas captivity, so it's plausible that she was instructed to say certain things in order to reduce the risk that he is abused (instructions may have come from either side)

[queen marsh]

1, 2, 3 and 5 are general conditions in the Gaza Strip, which is under blockade.

https://www.wfp.org/news/gaza-faces-widespread-hunger-food-systems-collapse-warns-wfp

I'd appreciate if you consider reading what I wrote before responding to me, as I mentioned 7.

You should share a source for number 8.

Perhaps we have a different definition of "major abuse" regarding Number 9.

[strong forum]

I dread even asking this, but...that article doesn't mention sexual violence? Where's that coming from?

[bronze crystal]

2. Can you please point out where denial of water is stated?

[little drift]

Fair enough, the article mentions infrequent meals, which does not necessarily imply that water was denied in general

[digital basin]

||Women and girls were raped during the acts of the seventh of October, like on video recorded by Hamas et al..
It would have to be checked whether one of them ended up as hostages, but it wouldn't surprise me.||
⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️

[digital basin]

||As to sexual violence during captivity? No evidence for or against.
However, in light if the pre-planned sexual violence on the 7th...||
⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️

[digital basin]

I would suspect that it's one of the things they are interrogated about, but any such information may be kept secret as to not cause Hamas et al. to harm hostages, or if the victims specifically request it.

[bronze crystal]

⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️ ||I have only seen circumstantial evidence of rape. One of those cases (captured woman having blood on her pants) has a better explanation then rape (cut hands and legs, blood from those cuts getting on the surface she was sitting on in the car).
I have not all the available videos of attack - have you seen with your own eyes a video with an act of rape from 7 October attack?||

[sonic hearth]

Jesus Christ

Here's an article #gender-based-violence-misogyny message

What are we still trying to establish as disinformation?

[digital basin]

I've seen excerpts from police interrogations regarding that, as well forensic professionals at work at the cre scenes talking to media.
||Given the type of ideology apparently held by the perpetrators of the 7th, rape is often used in combat and conquest, and ideologies like that are also over-represented in sex crimes against adults and children.||
It's not even a Muslim thing, say sufficiently extreme politics and/or religion does tend to be overrepresented.
⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️

[queen marsh]

(CW: discussion of sexual violence)
||c0ast3r asserted it as fact that sexual violence was done to hostages as part of their captivity. I have not seen that in the dozen or more reports I've read today and yesterday.

Kindly link to the evidence of "pre-planning" sexual violence you mentioned.||

[sonic hearth]

I need anyone who is discussing sexual violence to spoiler and CW your posts. Please let me know if you need help. There are many survivors out there

[digital basin]

|| https://vxtwitter.com/PoliakoffEitan/status/1727330083365634314 ||
⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️

[digital basin]

||Rape as means of warfare is also know from other Islamist organisations, e.g. Daesh, and at the end of the day,|| Daesh does share some ideological lineage with Hamas.
⚠️ CW/TW: Sexual violence⚠️

[bronze crystal]

You may find that ||"take your pants off"|| could have been used to make it harder for a captured person to run away or to take something out from their pants. I'm pretty sure examples can be found of IDF requiring detained to do this.

[digital basin]

So, although some may find the source not to your liking, highly plausible.

[sonic hearth]

I'll DM you

[bronze crystal]

Sorry for expressing my doubt, I have close to 0 trust in statements by Israeli authorities in relation to this conflict. In the case of what is discussed here, I'll only trust either direct evidence or reports by humanitarian orgs that are not based in Israel / biased.

[sonic hearth]

You can doubt anything you want! It just seemed that everyone was still trying to establish what happened in captivity. I don't see how open source can (currently) add to that

Just about everyone agrees that statements may not be truthful or complete right now, and when we start getting to "what evidence of rape is there" I want to be very on top of this.

[bronze crystal]

Thank you for moderation.

[digital basin]

I'm more than Average read on sex crimes. And the type of genocidal hatred that leads to mass killings like on 2023-10-07 is historically linked to mass Sexual violence as well. Rarely a genocide without it.
So yeah, though source may not be to your liking, tracks with historical record and expertise in the field of sex crimes.

[digital basin]

Hence why I use the plausibility acale rather than the true/false scale.
We'll have for evidence to emerge once cases go to trial etc.

[little drift]

Let‘s not go down the road of „unless there is a video of it, it didn’t happen“ please.

[digital basin]

Certain evidence won't ever be made public against the victims wishes (privacy). But some, like what is often reported on in court cases might

[little drift]

And for what it’s worth, even if such videos or images exist (which the Israelis authorities claim), I hope that they never get released to the public

[digital basin]

There likely is, but it's like ToS violation everywhere to post or share..

[queen marsh]

This was debunked in this thread by me a few weeks ago.

Let me get you the link.

[queen marsh]

#israel-palestine message

[sonic hearth]

That, and takes like "but they didn't behave like..." are why I am sitting on this discussion.

[bronze crystal]

In the first days after 7 Oct I've considered one account of especially atrocious act (which is not allowed to be mentioned on this server) to be plausible. It is possible that I have overcorrected after that, but now I have intent to not to make judgements based on what I find plausible.

[digital basin]

Sadly, genocidal hatred and sexual violence all too often occur together.
So while plausible that it could be for that, history strongly suggest otherwise. 😢

[queen marsh]

Given that this is a disinfo thread, making allegations not based in the available facts (as opposed to speculation of intent or possible reasons behind conduct we have evidence for) goes both ways. Broad statements about the "type of genocidal ideology" to justify assumptions that are not yet corroborated by the facts should be pushed back on.

[digital basin]

Is my recollection of the cessation of Israel and Israelis being removed being in the Hamas charter wrong?

[sonic hearth]

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you want from me in your reply

[queen marsh]

Replied to wrong comment

[digital basin]

Like, when you see language like that, combined with large mass killings of the target group, it's highly likely the ideology is genocidal.

[bronze crystal]

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/01/middleeast/hamas-charter-palestinian-israeli/

[digital basin]

Has the charter been modified to account for that change of stance?

[bronze crystal]

"The 1988 charter was superseded in 2017.[27] The revised charter[28] removed many of the most controversial sections, but the motives for and implications of this have been debated.[29] The revised charter has been interpreted by some[who?] as being excessively focused on the priorities of internal allies, potentially to the detriment of the Palestinian people.[29]"

"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, antisemitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

I do doubt that all sections/members of Hamas agree with this change.

[queen marsh]

In an effort not to misconstrue your argument, this is how I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Hamas' charter is in your view genocidal. Therefore, violence against Israelis done by Hamas is genocidal violence. Sexual violence historically accompanies genocide, therefor we can assume it was inflicted on civilians on Oct 7, as well as the hostages while in captivity.

If so, I would have to say that there are several subjectivities, and the question of sexual violence should be first tackled empirically, and with that failing we can then resort to non-empirical arguments about the likelihood of its occurrence.

[digital basin]

As to during captivity, no evidence for or against.
Just prior to captivity, possible.
Not any violence, but rather specifically the kind of violence we saw on 2023-10-07, shows beyond doubt willingness to commit genocide.
This is further exacerbated by statements by Hamas leaders that they want more al Aqsa floods.

[queen marsh]

I see, thanks for clarifying.

[digital basin]

As to evidence, there are published police reports and interviews with forensic personnel involved in the investigation.
And given the nature of the crimes, some parts of the evidence may never be published, but other, such as would be published as part of reporting on court cases, is likely to be published as the criminal cases progress.

[bronze crystal]

2017 version of Hamas charter: https://archive.is/9nWLl

[strong forum]

Following up on this mistranslated video clip from yesterday, it appears that the video was misedited (not outright mistranslated). This tweet has the full clip, which puts her remarks about Hamas in clearer context, and the thread preceding goes through the discrepancies. https://vxtwitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1729010243882164258?s=20

[queen marsh]

The jerk beeping in the background of the clip making it hard to hear her 😠

[strong forum]

Ha, I was thinking that too!

[sonic hearth]

this makes more sense than the BBC not having a solid translation

[queen marsh]

Even this updated translation is still very flawed! At 00:14 she does not say "some of us were tortured", she clearly says "even the mental cases were tormented/tortured" in accordance with the transcription in the original comparison post.

Whole clip is full of pretty significant inaccuracies that change the meaning of what she says. Maybe the translater is unfamiliar with the Palestinian dialect or misheared (severely!) thanks to the beeping, but they've done a poor job imo.

Huge pet peeve of mine when translators editorialize like this.

[queen marsh]

Can't get over how bad it is خلونا نموت (They left us to die) is mistranslated as "nobody felt our sufferings" wtf?

[gray locust]

Is it called out by someone? Cause that makes a big difference

[queen marsh]

Yup, in the original post with the side-by-side translation.

[quick crag]

if she has a Spanish language background then its even less likely that she would write general with a soft g (since the only reason I can think of writing it that way would be a background in English and not being around Hebrew too much)

(about this #israel-palestine message)

[gaunt tangle]

https://vxtwitter.com/michaelh992/status/1729466908800348602?s=20

[queen marsh]

Language is unclear - translations says "he had to watch", which doesn't necessarily mean he was "forced to watch". Anyone know French and can clarify?

[gaunt tangle]

https://www.bfmtv.com/international/moyen-orient/israel/il-a-vecu-des-horreurs-la-tante-d-eitan-ex-otage-francais-de-12-ans-raconte-ses-conditions-de-detention_AV-202311280291.html
this is the article referred

La joie des premiers instants laisse place à une part d'amertume. Deborah Cohen est particulièrement choquée d'apprendre que le jeune franco-israélien a dû regarder "le film de l'horreur", les images des attaques du groupe terroriste en Israël le 7 octobre dernier.

this is the key quote

[digital basin]

Not a French speaker, but speaker of a language with similar figures of speech, had to watch vs. forced to watch both convey being forced to watch, albeit the former with less coercion.
Any French Open Source Intelligencers?

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1729485394826207404

Boy released from the occupation's military detention facility describes that since Oct 7, inmates were subject to brutal beatings and depirivation. He alleges witnessing an elderly inmmate beaten to unconsciousness and possible death.
I've been trying to find details about his initial detention, but he shares a name with another much older arbitrary detainee released after review in 2021 and a Hamas spokesman with the same name.

[gaunt tangle]

idk if this is the right place and might be a bit annoying of me - but could we refrain from calling israel "the occupation", for all intents and purposes israel is a legitimate state per the UN and it comes across as unneeded editorializing and IMO is dangerously close to controversial "from the river to the sea" type commentary

[queen marsh]

I am referring to the detention centers in the occupied territories run by the occupation authorities. As opposed to Israeli prisons in Israel for regulsr criminals. Please pay attention to context, it is a bit disrespectful to tell people they're "dangerously close" to making "controversial" statements by using the word occupation.

[pastel apex]

I don't think we have the ability/desire to regulate the use of a term like that, so I think you're all free to use either ("occupation forces" vs. "IDF", for example)

People are going to take issue with whatever term you use, but again, we can't regulate that.

[manic basin]

My comment on the usage of language is that I use the term of belligerents[ However upon checking it would seem that combatants is the term codified in Humanitarian law] https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/belligerent/ In case anyone wants to use the exact codified word in human rights legislation it is combatants

[sharp hawk]

Language is really important when talking about war and a lot of what is and isn't acceptable is subjective and dependent on context. For example this group has come up with a guide to explain how the common terminology of war can be harmful https://www.wordsaboutwar.org/ (word of caution: admittedly their framing and quite biased) but it does show how even seemingly non-controversial terms can be seen as controversial by others

all of that is to say moderating language is next to impossible

[pastel apex]

Yup, just be respectful to each other please

[cobalt elk]

I'm native, I'll take a look in a sec

[digital basin]

Yay!

As to the usage of words, using loaded terms like occupiers may cause people disregard what you're saying, which is ill advised considering current situation.

[cobalt elk]

https://www.bfmtv.com/international/moyen-orient/israel/il-a-vecu-des-horreurs-la-tante-d-eitan-ex-otage-francais-de-12-ans-raconte-ses-conditions-de-detention_AV-202311280291.html in this interview, Eitan's aunt said "le hamas/ISIS l'ont obligé de voir le film d'horreur" which means "forced to watch". Or "they obliged him to watch" if you like.

[digital basin]

Merci ✊

[limpid rose]

The Ofer prison and military court are located in the occupied West Bank. However Palestinian prisoners and detainees are also held in many of the prisons and detention centers around Israel. Stating the name and location of the prison provides a better and more accurate context imo.

[gaunt tangle]

from the link above

[queen marsh]

I hope people ask for more context next time first, it's more respectful than policing language based on assumptions.

[limpid rose]

The Negev prison is a complex made of the Ketziot and Saharonim Prisons were administrative detainees are held (i.e. w/o trial). It isn’t in the West Bank (located not far from the Egyptian border). The Saharonim Prison used to be an immigration detention center but now hold Palestinian detainees as well (in separate wings)

[digital basin]

Were you quoting source rather that speaking for yourself?

[limpid rose]

I’m not trying to police your language in any way. I mentioned it because in your reply you spoke of the context.

[digital basin]

For reference, mark quotation in italics and if something problematic in quote, tack an unitalicized (SIC(!)) after, e.g.:
"some really loaded language" (SIC(!))
(Markdown: *"some really loaded language"* (SIC(!)))
or with block quotes:

some really loaded language
-- Source (with link if possible) (SIC(!))
(Markdown: > some really loaded language
**-- Source (With link if possible) (SIC(!))**)

Just to avoid flame wars and arguments starting from loaded language in cited text.

Not trying to police, rather trying to point out points of friction and how to avoid them. It doesn't do anyone any good if things get derailed in the current (grave) situation.

[limpid rose]

https://vxtwitter.com/shaykhsulaiman/status/1729504000133783699

It’s not what the screenshot (disinfo in itself) says. It doesn’t say she got the required medication, quite the opposite. He says that the woman didn’t get get her medications and that’s why she’s doing better (and adds that he only takes painkillers which are actually opioids). When asked in the comments for the source of this quote he says he heard it twice on tv and that it’s proof enough.

The original post:

"’My mother returned from captivity in a better condition than she was before, even though she did not receive the medication’ said the daughter, referring to her 85-year-old mother.
So everyone whose elderly parents are taking tons of medications, hurry up and put things in order to reduce it as much as possible, only what is really necessary.
Shown in the photo: life-saving painkillers, which is how I deal with sciatica [pain].
The less [you take] the healthier [you are].
Without it I would not be here today.”

https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?id=100009612231442&story_fbid=3426119814385059

[digital basin]

Given the severity of the allegations, can we get confirmation / dismissal of the claim of being beaten by Gazans? https://vxtwitter.com/eksymons/status/1729420954684580339

[knotty chasm]

That's not really a severe allegation. And you're not going to be able to get direct proof of it happening because Gaza doesn't have CCTV or something similar that'd -allow- for us to get direct video footage of the incident.

Also can we not automatically throw up every accusation made by people who were recently released from weeks of captivity in disinfo?

[digital basin]

Okay, won't then.

[knotty chasm]

Thank you.

[quick crag]

https://www.srugim.co.il/867156-דקרו-יידו-אבנים-ובקתבים-רשימת-המחבלי

it seems that he's the last name on this list (name and arrest date checks out)
he was arrested for making and throwing bombs (explosive devices) at soldiers and posting (or letting it know) that he wants to die a martyr

[queen marsh]

Is this based on the IDF-distributed lists sent to journalists naming the freed inmates?

[quick crag]

iirc the video of Shani louk had gazan civilians spitting on and hitting her while being taken into/paraded around gaza

[quick crag]

it's from a government document quoted in many news sites with a list of the inmates that are planned on being released (or have been by now)

[queen marsh]

When you say govenrment document, is it from office of PM or provided by military or court? Thanks for the help.

[quick crag]

secretary of the government
it's the document of the government decision about the ceasefire and hostage deal

[queen marsh]

I see, so it comes from Netanyahu's office rather than directly from judicial branch or security services

[hollow night]

(Edit: click on the link to view the videos) https://vxtwitter.com/tschwarzbard/status/1729605860333179122?s=46

[queen marsh]

He doesn't use his arms in that entire video. Besides that in the two interviews of him I've seen he has alleged that his fingers were broken and wrists injured, not that his arms were broken. If they wanted to use a video to demonstrate him moving his arms, they could have simply used his first interview: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFEZdtyMUYA

In Arabic dialect, the word for arm and hand are often interchangable, depends on dialect.

[bronze crystal]

(Not a medic) Both hands being bandaged and fixed in this way in the original post (#1161401676943609907 message) looks to be staged for propaganda purposes.
From AJ video, it does not look like his left hand has damage requiring bandaging that we see in the original post. No idea about his other hand.

[scarlet orbit]

He does use his arms and fingers in the video. Two times I could easily see were:

1. he seems to pull up his pants shortly before he enters the bus
2. he uses the outstretched fingers of his left hand for support when entering the bus

[queen marsh]

I caught the 2nd but not 1st. Timestamp?

He seems to support himself with his left arm, the one that's not in a sling in the interview.

[scarlet orbit]

I can't see timestamps on mobile, but here is a screenshot.

[queen marsh]

Not sure about that one. He mentioned in the interview that it was the Red Cross who patched him up (they transported him.) It appears they put his right arm in the sling. The casts he's wearing in later images were not likely them. Implies he was indeed injured when they took him in.

[scarlet orbit]

Also, he gets touched/pushed on the right upper arm without showing any pain reaction. Not exactly sure what the sling is for then.

In this frame, I think he visibly swings his right arm. Also note that he seems to use his left hand to support himself on the guardrail while turning.

But we never see the right hand, so we probably can't reach any certainty here.

[queen marsh]

Probably no point on speculating further, but as for the sling they're used for forearm fractures (I've had two). It stops the swelling.

[bronze crystal]

If he has damage to his hand (heavy bruising, crack in a bone or a broken bone), without damage to his arm, it would be reasonable to use sling for that hand. Sling is to make the resting position more comfortable, decrease a chance of hitting something with the hand/arm, and just decrease movement. Heavy bruising, crack in a bone or a broken bone would preclude use of fingers or hand, but should not affect ability to move the arm.

If his left hand has damage - it is not a heavy bruising or a broken bone, considering that he is using his fingers. So sling for the left hand in the original post does not look reasonable.
Nothing to say about his right hand.

[queen marsh]

I think the post's claim that the video proves "he had two perfectly working arms" is baseless. I don't think it makes much sense to speculate on whether the casts are performative or not without seeing some kind of medical verdict. Either way, the Red Cross seems to have recieved him injured and placed a splint, sling and bandaging on him.

[gray locust]

There's new footage
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0L3zpBNfrl/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

almashhadmedia

"كسروا يدي ولم يعالجوها إلّا بعد أسبوع".. الطفل الفلسطينيّ الأسير #محمد_نزال يروي معاناته وتعرّضه للضرب المبرّح في السجون الإسرائيليّة مع غيره من الأسرى، قبل أن يتمّ الإفراج عنه في صفقة تبادل الأسرى بين #إسرائيل و"حماس"

#المشهد #اخبار_المشهد #فلسطين #إسرائيل

Likes

656

Instagram

[gaunt tangle]

does anybody have a source to the claim that hamas had to relocate the hostage transfer because crowds were forming to kill the hostages?

[queen marsh]

X-rays of damage hands and forearms released: https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1729854450704044229?s=20

He doesn't link to the full source, I can dig it up if you want.

[gray locust]

ppl were really fast with pallywood claims, good that it is released.

[bronze crystal]

More photos and X-ray images here: https://misbar.com/editorial/2023/11/29/مسبار-يكشف-زيف-الادعاءات-الإسرائيلية-بأن-الطفل-المحرر-محمد-نزال-لم-يتعرض-للتعذيب

First 2 x-rays on that page were obtained from family, next 2 from the hospital.
I find it unlikely that with a such a break in his left hand he would be able to use it the way he uses it in the AJ video at ~0:24-0:26 ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFEZdtyMUYA ).

(⚠️ I am not a radiologist, or an expert on broken bones)
One of the X-ray images of the left hand does not show the break, possibly because of the angle it was taken from.
One of the X-ray images of the right hand possibly shows more damage than other two, but I have no idea, really.

[pastel apex]

This is the sort of thing only a radiologist can comment on IMO

[digital basin]

Yeah, but left top (LT) seems sus to my layman eyes, given that the bones of the breaks overlap, but...
⚠️N.B.: I'm not a radiologist.

[pastel apex]

Ya exactly. It's sortta like commenting on legal matters. You either have that highly specific knowledge or you're just taking shots in the dark

[digital basin]

I've had the join surface of a finger knocked off, so seen his own pics from that occasion.

[gray locust]

theres a written diagnosis of the xrays. i see the fracture.

[digital basin]

Yep, and if you have to, make it painfully clear you're a layman.

[digital basin]

Yeah, and out of 6 pics, only one seems off for me, but as OP said, could be unlucky angle on the flattie.

One thing I've learned being X-rayed for other causes: Sometimes, the opacity of a bone changes non-intuitiviely depending on the angle at which the xrays hit, hence why you have at least 2 angles for the same area of interest when you take flat X-rays (i.e. the classic type).

[sonic hearth]

Yeah and soon someone will get on Twitter and say "radiologist here!" And they'll be cited until the end of time.

[scarlet orbit]

The one thing even we as laypeople can determine is that the fractures in these images are indeed quite severe and would definitely require treatment.

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/NadavPollak/status/1729742485130260687

Are these numbers plausible? How could they know? Are they stating that the vast majority of adult men who died were Hamas fighters, or that overlaps and elevates the existing accepted death estimates?

[stone portal]

https://www.codastory.com/newsletters/newsletter-russian-disinformation-antisemitism-propaganda/

[scarlet orbit]

The idea that this would increase the death toll assumes that the Gaza Ministry of Health doesn't include combatants. And that seems unlikely.

[bronze crystal]

Alternative explanation - Gaza Ministry of Health numbers are lower then the real count of those killed.
I think that the last update from GMH was from 10th November (11078 killed, including 3027 women and 4506 children). Recently published number updates are from "Governmental media office" according to this disclaimer on the latest infographic from UNOCHA:
"The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced."
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-48

[rich hawk]

Where are you getting the 10th from?

[gray locust]

It was published on that day, here is one random article
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-officials-say-hospitals-come-under-new-israeli-attacks-2023-11-10/#:~:text=covered in blood.-,GAZA DEATH TOLL TOPS 11%2C000,7.

[mystic root]

Seen at least one American official say they're probably too low

[sonic hearth]

Remember to post your source

[mystic root]

Here, and this is weeks old

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4301551-gaza-deaths-likely-higher-than-cited-us-official/

[tepid heart]

IIRC (hopefully someone can find a source because I don't remember where I read this) Gazan doctors maintain some sort of a simple shared spreadsheet where they simply add rows as casualties come in, so supposedly it doesn't have the same bureaucratic delays as normal healthcare information systems

[willow lynx]

Israel also killed hundreds of fighters that crossed into israel. Dont know if they are included in the Gaza-count.

did someone find a video of the rocket that was reportedly fired by Hamas into Israel just before the ceasefire ended?

https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/en/2023/1-december-rocket-launch-towards-sderot-earlier-tonight

[queen marsh]

That makes sense. They have stated before 3,000 in Israel/border and 1000-2000 in bombings.

The ratio of 67% women+children+elderly casualties seems to make it unlikely that Oct 7 attackers have been included in the Health Ministry number of dead + under rubble.

[woven lantern]

Don' know if this is the source your referring to, but there is this article from the AP on November 6 , 2023.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

HOW DOES THE MINISTRY ARRIVE AT A DEATH TOLL?
Gaza’s most widely quoted source on casualties is Health Ministry spokesperson Ashraf al-Qidra. From an office at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, al-Qidra receives a constant flow of data from every hospital in the strip.

Hospital administrators say they keep records of every wounded person occupying a bed and every dead body arriving at a morgue. They enter this data into a computerized system shared with al-Qidra and colleagues. According to screenshots hospital directors sent to AP, the system looks like a color-coded spreadsheet divided into categories: name, ID number, date of hospital entry, type of injury, condition.

Names aren’t always available, al-Qidra said. He and colleagues face disruptions because of spotty connectivity but say they call to double-check the numbers.

The ministry collects data from other sources, too, including the Palestinian Red Crescent.

“Every person entering our hospital is recorded,” said Atef Alkahlout, director of Gaza’s Indonesian Hospital. “That’s a priority.”

The ministry releases casualty updates every few hours, providing the number of dead and wounded with a breakdown for men, women and minors. The ministry generally doesn’t provide names, ages or locations of those killed. That information comes from reporters on the ground or the Hamas-run government media office.

[tepid heart]

That's it, thank you

[gray locust]

Jerusalem_Post again tweeted the doll hoax. I have blurred the screenshot, the tweet is still up but it shows the dead baby so be aware. For reference: ||https://twitter.com/Shayan86/status/1730628951704285533?t=HbTQ-XLhSFatTVKq4us_sg&s=19|| thread by Shayan

[rich hawk]

I don't see its eyes or mouth move in the video, do you?

[bronze crystal]

Sorry, do you expect to see eye movement in dead bodies?

[rich hawk]

Um, doh, got confused

[gray locust]

https://fxtwitter.com/Shayan86/status/1730687922142068846?t=jKkNFCg1wDmn5ZQ8Hwls_Q&s=19

[opal fulcrum]

https://vxtwitter.com/deerhoof/status/1730685553350189089

[scarlet orbit]

Bad machine translation is not disinformation, what's your point?

[opal fulcrum]

Why is that bad machine translation?

Every post about this guy says he's a journalist, he's not and the only thing that says he's one is his own profile which doesn't even connect any publication to it

[scarlet orbit]

https://cpj.org/2023/12/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/

CPJ does list him as a journalist.

[opal fulcrum]

where is his publications?

[rich hawk]

Adham Hassouna -> أدهم حسونة
1 Jan 2023 – 6 Oct 2023 Google -> https://www.alwatanvoice.com/arabic/news/2023/04/02/1516660.html

[scarlet orbit]

Also, the absence of evidence for something is not evidence for the absence of something.

It takes a lot more for this to be declared disinformation.

[queen marsh]

https://m.elwatannews.com/news/details/6977806

From the same site, on his death.

[rich hawk]

Been doing a Discord purge lately. Just left a couple because it was full of Israelis claiming this is all Pallywood 'cause the English translation drew up no results. Glad i found this place.

[queen marsh]

Feel free to ask me for Arabic translations/searches/verification

[bronze crystal]

I do recommend going over posts in this twitter account to see what was debunked as disinfo (that includes some posts about "pallywool" / mrFafo conspiracy theory).
https://twitter.com/Shayan86

[rich hawk]

Cheers. Think i've seen him before.

[limpid rose]

The Sinwar warning that Oct 7 was “just a rehearsal” is apparently taken from a speech he gave in May 2021

https://vxtwitter.com/fakereporter/status/1730542367143247945

https://vxtwitter.com/menaunleashed/status/1730299330500677749

https://vxtwitter.com/philoshua/status/1730307596467184014

https://vxtwitter.com/philoshua/status/1730308333859479666

[queen marsh]

Has Sinwar made any public comments since the war escalated?

[opal fulcrum]

anybody has some idea what's going on with that doll thing?

[rich hawk]

Jerusalem Post deleted their article/posts on it

[gray locust]

" the thing" is debunked as a hoax. The child name is known. The JP deleted their post. Bad faith actors retweeted the hoax and don't stop.

[opal fulcrum]

I thought so as well but saw a new video now and I'm second guessing

[gray locust]

It's very sad what is happening.

[quick crag]

https://t.me/abualiexpress/55350
found the source

[gray locust]

This server spoilers gore. Please edit. Discord deletes servers who don't follow their instructions.

The eyes are altered in that pic.

[wary jewel]

Here's their "correction"
https://vxtwitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1730991247416766516?s=20

[limpid rose]

Abu Ali Express is an unreliable source which shares unverified info and disinfo

[azure gust]

hi, I deleted the message even though it was spoilered. we've discussed the merits of this one and having it stated the first time was acceptable as news/disinfo, but repeating it in graphic detail crosses a threshold. even if the conversation itself is well-intended to dispute disinfo, there's a sensitivity to sharing and resharing this topic due to vicarious trauma and audience sensitivity.

ftr, that's definitely fake for reasons I won't get into. it's perfectly fine to go into DMs ofc.

[opal fulcrum]

Seems Al Mayadeen attribute this to Israeli settlers (although this is in Lod which is close to Tel Aviv), Israeli media is reporting her brother and father were arrested in connection

https://www.maariv.co.il/news/law/Article-1056062

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r1edrfib6

[azure gust]

I'm deleting this on the grounds that it was graphic and unspoilered, which is standard protocol here. I'm also timing you out for at least a week since this wouldn't be the first infraction.

a similar infraction was literally discussed right before this.

[opal fulcrum]

how is this graphic?

[scarlet orbit]

For context, the linked post literally had "Graphic content" in the headline. That might be a good indicator.

[limpid rose]

Disinfo

https://vxtwitter.com/fakereporter/status/1730198248155914433

[true snow]

So Haaretz is allegedly reporting (in Hebrew) that several of the most gruesome atrocities that Israel claimed/used for narrative shaping purposes after the 7th are exaggerated or false.

@sonic hearth idk if it's within the rules to post?

[sonic hearth]

Without knowing what the article says it's hard to say. Can you DM me a link, please?

Just as an update, the article isn't loading, so I'll make a decision but can't at this time

[dreamy falcon]

Can you share the link? I read hebrew fluently

[queen marsh]

||https://vxtwitter.com/reider/status/1731257542444032223||
Haaretz reviews and debunks several atrocities claimed by IDF members, media, high-ranking Israeli politicians and Joe Biden. Some have been discussed here. CW: graphic descriptions

||https://vxtwitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1731302039378882594||
This thread summarized article's contents, though not sure if there are any discrepancies between it and the Hebrew article in terms of wording.

Same CW as above

[knotty tundra]

Basically a summary of all the grue some stuff already debunked before.

[queen marsh]

Yes, with additional context of how they were spread at top levels - Netanyahu and his wife called their American counterparts Joe and Jill and relayed some of these false reports to them, Blinken and Biden repeated them to the press etc.

[queen marsh]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israels-un-ambassador-slams-soros-donations-pro-hamas-groups-seeking-destruction-jewish-state

[mystic root]

#disinfo-and-propaganda message

#disinfo-and-propaganda message

[slim ginkgo]

https://vxtwitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1726148926988759247 older one, but it keeps being repeated: the claim that Egged Transportation buses mean photos in the Gaza Strip with them are disinformation

https://geoconfirmed.org/israel/2f3520db-eec9-4b0e-e46b-08dbe78ec568 geolocation on the above post, showing that it is indeed in khan younis; surplus buses are being used in the strip

[drifting apex]

Tablet Mag article spreading mis/disinfo about a Palestinian influencer, Saleh Aljafarawi, whose become a target for crisis actor narratives from hardline the pro-Israel accounts. Of probably the most egregious claims is that he faked his own death to garner sympathy through a video even though by the time this article was published it was common knowledge that the video in question was taken years prior and was of another person who was actually dying. Spoilering for the imagery in the article which contains a screenshot of said video.

||https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/mr-fafo-real-liel-leibovitz||

Just adding extra context in case users are searching these terms: He has been dubbed "Mr. FAFO" (fuck around find out) and is being used to spread Pallywood crisis actor conspiracies

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/RamiJarrah/status/1731493631406543077?s=20

For reference, Al Mowasi is right next to Rafah and cannot fit anywhere near 2.2 million people.

[limpid rose]

There’s a CN on several of these posts, but it isn’t shown yet coz more ratings are needed

https://x.com/themossadil/status/1725955365425058199

https://x.com/brianoflondon/status/1726107603065827771

[old fiber]

https://www.uncaptured.media/p/debunked-israel-claims-that-hamas

[little drift]

"The uncle said it, but there is no independent confirmation" is not exactly proof that the claim is a lie (although this is true that media outlets should be wary before distributing such claims). The website is something else though, with its anti-vaccine, pro-Russian narratives, and seemingly Hamas apologetics

[queen marsh]

The article cites compelling evidence IMO - that the uncle only claimed it after meeting with ministers who were the first source of the claim, that an official government website scrubbed the claim and that it has not been corroborated by any other family member apparently. Would need to be able to read Hebrew to check.

The website does seem Grayzone-ish

[scarlet orbit]

Yikes, that website fits well into this disinfo thread.

[tepid heart]

Not a single piece of evidence has emerged corroborating Yaacov’s claim, rendering it an obvious falsehood
Summarizes the article's argument pretty well. The hostages' uncle didn't show pictures and we didn't hear it elsewhere so it must be false. The rest is either nonsense (eg: "how would they even recognize a burn mark from an injury") or circumstantial ("this was also shared in an ultra-orthodox magazine").

So yeah, far from something I would call a "debunk". Not to say that the original story is super credible but this isn't exactly Bellingcat caliber analysis.

[queen marsh]

It's also written badly, timeline is confusing.

[limpid rose]

This article in itself is propaganda and has many major inaccuracies. First of all, the fact that no evidence was provided is not "debunking" or proof of "an obvious falsehood".
It also claims that "deceptions [are] spun up to paint Hamas as a genocidal terrorist group". There’s no question about the atrocities committed by Hamas against civilians. Trying to depict it all as propaganda and deceptions is simply denying the facts, which are horrible enough.
Making assumptions that this claim would be added to the database of the evidence to the crimes committed on Oct 7 is unfounded and is an attempt to depict all the evidence as unreliable.
The claims that the uncle was "groomed" is also unsubstantiated. The fact that he met with some officials isn’t proof enough (what if, for example, he suggested it to them first?).
Also, the claim that the branding of the Palestinian detainee with a star of david didn’t cause an uproar in Israel is simply untrue (can send links if anyone is interested, but it’s irrelevant to the question at hand).

[bronze crystal]

Please react somehow to this message if you agree/disagree with this statement:
That "friendly waving" on the hostage release videos did not look very sincere, and mentioning it as an evidence that hostages were treated well is somewhat of a red flag.

Just trying to check my sanity/perception of reality.

[tepid heart]

In general reading body language (especially from material where we don't know the full context) is about as weak as it gets

[scarlet orbit]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would be grateful to their kidnappers, regardless of how well they were treated.

[tepid heart]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
FWIW according to an FBI report cited here, about 8% of kidnapping victims have exhibited the characteristics of what is popularly known as Stockholm syndrome

As a pure handwave, the percentage may be considerably higher for children

[gray locust]

Take the Stockholm Syndrom *diagnosis with a grant of sakt

[slim ginkgo]

+1 - it's poorly understood and many specialists deny it even exists

[tepid heart]

I want to be clear that I don't mean that this number is some sort of diagnosis or that the syndrome is some medically accepted thing, just that statistically (regardless of the cause) a small but non-negligible percentage of kidnapping victims do come to sympathize or bond with the kidnappers. And that's mainly for adults, who are less impressionable than children

[gray locust]

If you see it as an umbrella diagnosis you can go with it, I think

[queen marsh]

Ambigious to me, I think they were just happy to get out of there but it seemed to me they also were not recoiling from their captors in a way that suggests major abuse during captivity.

[bronze crystal]

I think I'll have to watch it some time later and see, if I perceive it differently. Thanks.

[little drift]

For reference, here is a statement from Stanislav Aseyev who was kidnapped and spent several years in DNR prison: https://vxtwitter.com/AseyevStanislav/status/1728842639267811517 regarding how reliable (or rather, how unreliable) body language etc. of hostages can be.

[queen night]

Just a heads up that Stockholm Syndrome is not a diagnosable condition as Aeryn said. It's a very strong oversimplification of a lot of factors and situations athat may or may not happen. Stockholm Syndrome, per se, is not a real thing

But yeah, it rather describes processes and situations in which someone can build some degree of sympathising for their kidnapper, but it can range from just being a survival adaptation to genuinely agreeing with the motivations of the kidnapper to do so, and multiple other variables

It's something that would have to be looked at the individual level

[edgy spruce]

In the case of the "original" Stockholm case, law enforcement acted so irresponsibly that the hostages were more worried about being killed by the police than the hostagetakers and media subsequently painted them as "hysteric and emotional" women who fell for the criminals. It's a shame the term is even still used, it's pretty worthless.

[limpid rose]

People in life threatening situations act in "survival mode", which mean they often try to uppease their abuser to reduce the risk. You see it in victims of other crimes as well, such as domestic violence etc. It’s a perfectly normal reaction.

[queen night]

Indeed, this adds to what I meant as "different processes and situations"

[queen marsh]

Sure, but we actually have their interviews to go off now, so I don't think they were "just playing along" in fear of being killed if they simply ignored the interaction. Anyways it's all speculation and I'm sure personal stance on the overall conflict is driving most peoples' interpretation of subjective factors like this.

[knotty tundra]

I agree that both people who think the waving looked sincere and people who think it looked insincere are wrong.

[little drift]

were there any interviews released recently?

[bronze crystal]

Some "friendly waving" was possibly sincere, and some possibly insincere?

[sharp hawk]

I think playing the game of trying to determine why an individual reacted a certain way is completely pointless

[gray locust]

Not for people who never heard of the see above. It was a sincere question, it is confusing when you don't have knowledge. We only can get better when we continue to learn, in OSINT

[queen night]

I wouldn't say pointless but rather inefficient due to the amount of variables, most of them unknown, that would lead to that behaviour

[scarlet orbit]

Both of you mean the same thing.

[queen night]

Me and who? Blu3? I mean, I guess, but pointless is not the same as inefficient. But I don't think a tangent on semantics is what we should spend our time here.

Would that be pointless or inefficient? Up to you I guess 😛

[sharp hawk]

By pointless, I mean you're never going to get anywhere

So yes inefficient also works

[scarlet orbit]

Do you think the average member of this server is qualified to do this? So it seems pretty pointless for us to engage in this discussion.

[queen night]

I think you misunderstood what I meant, which is discussing about this any further here.

[scarlet orbit]

Yes, all points have been made. Let's get back to the regularly scheduled programming in this channel.

[queen night]

Ok. Given the reactions I'll proceed to accept any consequences (including missing my next bus home) and provide a lengthier answer.

Trying to understand why a person reacted in one way or another would require analysing a massive set of variables, plenty of them are merely unknown. Because of these factors one needs to ask whether it is efficient to do so or even if it would lead to findings that can have an impact in the conclusions of the research conducted.

That of course leads to the distinction of pointlessness or mere inefficiency. Which is what also when I said it was appropriate to move on I joked a bit around it.

But whether a question to be addressed or not is a matter of having a point, then it should not be due to a measure of skill for the average user. Especially when the purpose of the server is of education. So you expect the average user does not have the skill, but they should be encouraged to acquire skills and ask questions that can come up as a result of their research and learn on how to conduct such research. Saying that a question is pointless goes against that process.

So yes, I think there's a difference. And if you want to disagree and/or discuss it further, that's totally fine, we take it elsewhere and keep it civil. But I think it was imperative to add this clarification here.

[queen marsh]

https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-huge-errors-in-us-study-about-tase-short-sellers-1001464098

This is a piece seemingly debunking the Haaretz piece I posted earlier #israel-palestine message

It alleges that there were fundamental errors in the study, such as assuming Israeli stocks were traded in Shekels rather than agorot (pennies).

[twilit granite]

Misleading translation on Instagram from Arabic into English on an Alarabytv post who documents civil disobedience of pro-palestine students at a PDSB school in Canada. Google translation of the same text is much better since meaning seems to be retained, even if not perfect. Why is Instagram so consistently worse at translating into Arabic than Google? There is probably better translations in both instances. Can we still claim this is a machine translation issue ? How could this be objectively translated ?

Original post
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0bfXXSO6Ay/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

alarabytv

محتجون في مدرسة PDSB بكندا يقاطعون اجتماع مجلس الإدارة بهتافات مؤيدة لفلسطين ومنددة بالعنصرية والكراهية

Likes

4820

Instagram

[dreamy falcon]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12799523/israel-hamas-war-hostages-freed-palestinian-prisoners-kfir-bibas.html

There has been some reports and videos with sound of these moments, and apparently in one video we can clearly hear "keep waving" this has been reported a lot

about the debate on hostages and their emotions - there is a specific set of skills that takes years to develop that could help to read it - highly used in HUMINT and a methodology developed by Paul Ekman (emotional psychologist) for those who are interested you can check his work out

[scarlet orbit]

Ekman's work is pretty controversial in academic circles, last I checked.

[dreamy falcon]

yes debated, and his work has been updated since then but it's a good basis for those interested and looking to expand their skills in emotional behavior and microexpressions reading

[frank apex]

I'm not an expert in the field, but virtually everything I have heard about Ekman's work has been extremely negative. I would be very cautious about relying on him (the "Criticism" section of this article has a decent summary of some of the problems with his research).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman

[sonic hearth]

Generally we discourage that sort of evaluation of humans; it happens a lot to survivors of sexual violence (they didn't act a certain way, now they are disbelieved etc) and instead focus on points we can verify with open source analysis

[dreamy falcon]

yes indeed it's a methodology, it's old, and it's a guy from the last century so of course many things subject to criticism. But ignoring that such a methodology exist on the name of "it is not consensual" is not very sharp. Particularly because IT IS still very much used by officials, army, intelligence services, special services etc - as Sarah described with the terrible example of sexual violence survivors. So it should be known and digged, and like in everything Ekman at his time brought up some things that were unknown.

[queen marsh]

META has been responsible for some abominable "translation mistakes" of late: https://www.thedailystar.net/tech-startup/news/instagram-issues-apology-after-adding-the-word-terrorist-certain-palestinian-accounts-3449961

[queen marsh]

AFAIK the "keep waving" allegation has its source in a mistranslation posted on X some days ago. I can try to dig it up if it's not deleted.

[twilit granite]

Yeah, I remember that but I expected them to become better at Arabic translation after that, or at least not as bad in a way that completely changes the meaning of the original sentence

[queen marsh]

In the various reports I've read there are three factors:

1. The difficulty of translating colloquial Arabic, which differs vastly between regions (i.e I can understand and speak 3 different dialects which are radically different to each other, in writing too)
2. Prioritization of countering "terrorist" materials despite lacking tools and knowledge to tackle Arabic-language content.
3. Specific bias against pro-Palestinian content which some attribute to Zuckerberg himself. Indeed, it seems that Palestinian FB gets a different class of treatment than other Arabic FBs.

All these are factors that lead to misinformation and undue censorship as things get lost in translation.
Examples: https://thearabweekly.com/facebook-arabic-lost-translation-language-gaps-sow-confusion
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/24/facebook-palestine-israel-translates-good-morning-attack-them-arrest
Palestinian man arrested over egregious machine mistranslation: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/24/facebook-palestine-israel-translates-good-morning-attack-them-arrest

[dreamy falcon]

guys... it's in english not in arabic.

[scarlet orbit]

Do you have any evidence to support the implication that those are not machine translation mistakes but instead an intentional, malicious action?

[queen marsh]

Could you link it? I believe it eas this video that I saw, where thr audio did not match the claim (not mistranslation as I misremembered): https://vxtwitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/1729477867837288944/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1729477867837288944&currentTweetUser=MarioNawfal

[dreamy falcon]

It's in the link I already send, open the article read the video with sound. You can also find it here if you wish or anywhere else... it's like everywhere and the english is quite clear
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/yoseph-haddad-a97a47198_keep-waving-the-instructions-hamas-terrorists-activity-7134422079478583297-Xk7G?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12799523/israel-hamas-war-hostages-freed-palestinian-prisoners-kfir-bibas.html video is embedded in the article

[queen marsh]

Ah I hear it now. The Nawful post I saw did not include this at all.

[dreamy falcon]

link here is broken

[queen marsh]

Should work now

[gray locust]

This is interesting. I collect multiple videos daily and are banned from interaction til Friday without uploading by myself. Old article
https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/19/meta-instagram-palestine-israel-shadowban-censorship-moderation-bias/

[queen marsh]

My implication is that it is a systematic bias built into their translations that they've known about and neglected for years, not that they specifically and maliciously added "terrorist" to otherwise complete translations. Refer to the links I posted describing the chronic issue.

[knotty chasm]

As a survivor of sexual assault myself, trying to determine the emotional state of the individuals in the brief clips provided by Hamas to try and imply a level of humane treatment is not only offensive but outright disgusting.

Also Ekman refuses to submit his work to peer review which says enough in and of itself as to why the man's not taken seriously by most modern psychologists.

[austere jolt]

https://fixupx.com/jerusalem_post/status/1730991247416766516

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1028393392197087332/1181298298955518016/Screenshot_20231203_154443_X-01.jpg?ex=65808cc5&is=656e17c5&hm=5e04b5390410c399cd07cd944193b858a645a613acc2cc294972e984819e26d9&=&format=webp&width=912&height=908

[drifting apex]

I'm surprised an outlet like JPost got this so wrong, in such a disturbing way at that. I saw a ton of pro-Israel accounts which usually share crisis actor conspiracies share that image and laugh at it. Very disturbing. How reliable is JPost usually as a news outlet?

[sonic hearth]

They've had some problems lately (i can't believe they still haven't taken this down)
https://twitter.com/stoecklin_sarah/status/1710770397585752470?s=19

[bronze crystal]

Not sure that it is correct to post this here - found what appears to me an error in a Haaretz article (https://archive.is/CUiCh) https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000
"Fourteen children aged 12 to 15 were killed in in Israel in rocket strikes launched from Gaza, not at massacre sites in southern Israeli communities."

There were 14 children aged 12 to 15 killed on 07/10 in total out of 33 identified killed children. (based on data from oct7map.com)
6 in Be'eri, 1 in Netivot, 1 in Nir Oz, 1 in Kfar Aza, 1 in Kissufim - all close to Gaza, and 4 in Alba’at (somewhere close to (31.28793937485013, 35.04913704894233) )

Can it be that casualties of rocket attacks on 07/10 are counted separately from casualties of the ground attack by Hamas, or is it actually an error?

[gaunt tangle]

https://vxtwitter.com/aizenberg55/status/1731753062622982386?s=46&t=t0cnGSY3MZZcxBc9IvBOTQ

Putting this into disinfo because it's gotten 3m views and idk enough aboutout the topic to report on accuracy

[unreal steeple]

https://s2jnews.com/diarrhoea-disease-outbreak-in-israeli-army/

[bronze crystal]

Sorry for asking to move it to disinfo, it looks like this article was the source for the claim (I've somehow missed the screenshot): https://www.ynet.co.il/health/article/yokra13701914
I think ynet is trustworthy enough when they say something bad about IDF.

[compact snow]

Seen this video flying around on social media today: https://www.instagram.com/p/CzLpddrItbx/

With the suggestion she's wearing the colours of the Palestinian flag (green, white, black) and daubing herself in red "blood."

Except she isn't. https://www.euronews.com/video/2023/05/22/watch-woman-clad-in-ukrainian-colours-pours-fake-blood-on-herself-at-cannes-film-festival

[gaunt tangle]

Oh that's a good edit

[limpid rose]

https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-12-03/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018c-2036-d21c-abae-76be08fe0000

Its a translation error. The Heb original says: "Besides them, another 15 children between the ages of 11 and 15 were murdered, THREE OF THEM by a rocket and not at the scenes of the massacre in the communities bordering Gaza.

[bronze crystal]

Thank you, now I see that the oct7map.com data describes 4 of them being killed by a rocket and 1 killed by a missile (possibly meant to be rocket too).
Rocket: 4 in Alba'at; Missile: 1 in Netivot. In addition there was a 5 years old kid killed by a rocket in Ar'ara.

[quick crag]

I've seen other videos/posts with similar claims/proofs

[queen marsh]

Well for one the thread doesn't cite directly from the Health Ministry reports, it cites second hand infographics from the UN.

Furthermore, the discrepancies they're claiming are confusing. For example, this one implies that every update to the death toll indicates the newly added all died on the day of the update:

[bronze crystal]

If the total of reported casualties includes those who are not identified (I assume it is so), then the number of newly identified women and children on a specific date can easily be larger than the number of killed on that day.
This explains away every single claimed "evidence" of falsification listed in that thread.

For 18 and 19 Oct there is an additional possible explanation - if the stated number of killed in Al-Ahli hospital explosion was false (that is my assumption), it is possible that GHM manipulated numbers in the next couple of days. That would decrease trustworthiness of GHM, but would not change the picture of the total number of casualties much.

[queen marsh]

Does anyone have access to newspaper archives to fact-check this? Ignoring the purported implications of the Tweet, if you Google the exact phrase "lives found ended" you find mostly recent references to this headline across social media.

[molten drum]

Authors:
Miriam Berger
Evan Hill
Hazem Balousha
Newspaper should be WaPo

[molten drum]

This must be the actual article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/03/gaza-premature-babies-dead-nasr/

[bronze crystal]

Archive with two different versions of the title: https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/03/gaza-premature-babies-dead-nasr/
"A Gaza hospital evacuated, four fragile lives and a grim discovery"
||"Israel’s assault forced a nurse to leave babies behind. They were found decomposing."||

[queen marsh]

Interesting, looks like the print version had the older title with the allegedly novel phraseology.

Would love if someone could confirm theough newspaper archives it is is novel though

[bronze crystal]

Google have not seen it used previously.

[azure gust]

Absolutely. Nexis is a source of truth and the go-to for investigative inquiry and archival research:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis#:~:text=LexisNexis is a part of,newspaper search%2C and consumer information.

[queen marsh]

Thanks... I miss having university access to such tools.

[timber pelican]

Not to excuse/justify/etc. the headline, but there are often multiple headlines used for a single story -- different between web versions at times (or depending on placement of story, to optimize/figure out best SEO and clickability), web vs. print, etc. The original web version was the most forceful, the print one more santizied/passive. Saw some people say that WaPo "changed" (watered down) the headline when I assume they just used one of a few versions they had prepped, but Evan obviously knows best as it's his story.

[dreamy acorn]

I have just become aware of Facts for Peace LLC when I saw several commercials by them repeatedly on streaming TV. It was very blatant propaganda conflating support for Palestinians with support for Hamas, portraying Hamas as not just an enemy of Israel but of the US and all Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims in the world. It repeated the Israeli government's slogan "Hamas is ISIS".
I looked up Facts for Peace LLC and learned that besides the streaming TV commercials I saw, they have posted hundreds of videos on social media, many of which have millions of views. The organization was founded by politically-connected billionaires.
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-11-24/viral-campaign-attacking-pro-palestine-movement-points-to-gaps-in-meta-rules

[gray locust]

Yes, we also had ads. When you use the search you will find a few postings. Thx for the link.

[queen marsh]

US State Dept spokesperson Miller claimed that Hamas was not releasing remaining female hostages because they would "tell what happened to them in captivity". As far as I know this was not the claim of Israeli authorities at the time of the truce's end and Hamas maintains that the remaining are mostly captured combatants.

Challenged on it by journalists, he admitted it wasn't fact but his own conjecture, and Sullivan did not back his story up when asked why Hamas would not release the hostages/POWs, stating that he doesn't know.
This didn't stop Fox News and Axios from spreading headlines that imply it's the State Department's position:

The incident: https://vxtwitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1731757685400355224

Fox' misleading headline painting it as a State Dept. position.

[gaunt tangle]

https://vxtwitter.com/EladNehorai/status/1731902722813898991?s=20 crossposting from #far-right-monitoring because these accounts regularly post disinfo

[queen marsh]

David Frum repeating the baseless (and illogical) claim made by State Dept spokesman Miller, which he backtracked as opinion. This man really loves lying about the Mid East.

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/HouseGOP/status/1732064188980146642?s=20

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about? Does he mean the 'river to sea' chant?

[queen marsh]

Never mind, found the answer: https://vxtwitter.com/YonahLieberman/status/1732416571593941474

[little drift]

Only Kornbluth's answer refers specifically to calls for intifada, Magil and Gay are asked whether call for genocide of Jews violates code of conduct. To which a much less controversial answer would have been "yes, but whether a specific slogan should be interpreted as such a call depends on the context", but this is not what was said.

[static pagoda]

https://vxtwitter.com/Shayan86/status/1732465513043828992 xpost
#russia-ukraine-eastern-europe message

[queen marsh]

Follow up: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-appears-to-push-back-on-irresponsible-us-claim-hamas-refusing-to-release-raped-hostages/

[gaunt tangle]

https://twitter.com/khaledkraizim/status/1732766757478174812?s=20

https://vxtwitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1732780483166028141?s=20

https://vxtwitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1732788072113152451?s=20

https://twitter.com/Gaza_Psych/status/1732758261026205699?s=20

https://twitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1732756685515600011?s=20

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1732787007401714097?s=20 - QNN strangely not going for the "they are being executed" narrative

new possible disinfo - israel is rounding up palestinian men for executive

[digital basin]

⚠️🧂 The @WarMonitors account on Twitter has a problematic history, cf. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/oct/09/x-twitter-elon-musk-disinformation-israel-hamas

[gaunt tangle]

yeah im posting it here because it seems like there's a new disinfo narrative that israel is mass executing palestinian men

[sonic hearth]

Yes the disinfo channel is the best place for problematic accounts.

I often get ready to tell someone that an account is bad and then I realize what channel I'm in

[digital basin]

has a short list of accounts he knows are posting disinfo or misinfo consinstently, or with severe enough bias to affect objectivity.

[pine wing]

What's the origin of that photo? And is it old?

[knotty tundra]

Even when posting in the disinfo channel it wouldn't hurt to add a little description like: "Hey, there seems to be a new narrative going around that (...). Look at the type of accounts repeating it."

Also, maybe stick to one or two embeds. The rest can be just links.

[gaunt tangle]

ill edit the embeds, didnt give a description because i was linking from the main war channel - will edit to follow the advice given

[digital basin]

Will tag heads-up for problematic accounts as edited above, ⚠️🧂 :warning::salt:.
(for varying amounts of salt, from light sprinkle to full europallet of road salt)

[quick crag]

if u mean the photos of naked men with soldiers its recent from the last day or two based on Israeli media and it was taken in Khan Younis from what I've understood

[digital basin]

Photo appears legit, however @WarMonitors is a problematic account and statements need to be independently verified due to track record.

[pine wing]

Yes sorry I wasn't clear. Wondered if the men in the different 3 photos were matched and geolocated already.

[quick crag]

💯

[sonic hearth]

Everyone's statements need to be verified

[digital basin]

If not so, it's in progress.

[pine wing]

Ok ty

[digital basin]

Indeed. But there are accounts that I've learnt to take with a pallet of road salt from the get-go 😛

[sonic hearth]

The Israel Palestine channels are in intensive care mode, so I continually reiterate the basics

[digital basin]

Yeah, signal to noise ratio is highly degraded on the topic. Special attention and care is required.

[tepid heart]

TBH I think one of the quality issues from the last 2 months has been people passive aggressively posting reports/tweets they personally dislike to this channel

[pastel apex]

Yup! We've noticed that with concern and is one of the reasons why we made that announcement earlier today saying we were going to be making changes

[sonic hearth]

"everything that I don't like or makes me feel like My Side might be doing something bad is disinfo" is indeed a trend

[digital basin]

Yeah, while although a source which has a bias to either side can actually post information which is correct. Hence, always check timeline for trackrecord, and pay attention to if the account makes corrections.

I try to consciously to own my f💣kups by retracting or issuing a correction.

[sonic hearth]

"source is biased" is another big one right now

[digital basin]

Yep. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's unreliable, only that the POV strictly one side or the other. Think of it as people on both sides of the street reporting on an event in the middle of it, part of the discrepancy can simply be from perspective from which they record or describe, e.g. it is correct when seen from the left sidewalk, but the guys on the right sidewalk may see additional things obscured for the guys on the left sidewalk, and vice versa.

[knotty tundra]

I think she was agreeing with you. 😀

[digital basin]

I know, I just tried to add a pitfall I came to think of as I read her response.

[knotty chasm]

People also need to stop automatically assuming every bit of false testimony is done with malicious intent and understand that in a conflict of this intensity emotional stress from people actually in the warzone can easily muddy their own recollections.

[sonic hearth]

And that every message in the Discord is written with the worst intent possible

[digital basin]

Indeed. Strong emotions such as fear, guilt, anger, hate have a detrimental effect on sound judgment. Such a detrimental effect that it's used as a manipulation method.

[old fiber]

The Times of Israel reports the photos are from 7 December & location Jabaliya (not Khan Younis) https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/footage-purports-to-show-dozens-of-gazans-after-they-surrendered-to-idf/

[gaunt marsh]

Going to add this to the disinfo channel... basically sharing the same sets of photos and claiming it is in Khan Younis (and that they are Hamas fighters)
https://vxtwitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1732758781769941183

[old fiber]

Also adding for consideration this tweet about a journalist rounded up with this group. It also mentions the location as Beit Lahia. https://vxtwitter.com/ramabdu/status/1732780566485881058

https://vxtwitter.com/ramabdu/status/1732801593496481901

[mystic root]

https://vxtwitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1732736288523243704

[gray locust]

Finally Shaun King meets the people of his quality /s

[wary jewel]

I'm seeing claims that Israel has executed some men they rounded up like this. Has there been any evidence of this? Or evidence of any executions in Gaza?
Embedded tweet doesn't show any dead bodies but CW tweet below linked tweet shows dead bodies in the street.
||https://vxtwitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1732756685515600011?t=NzB--HTtCgkm7lMBJ39gog&s=19||

[pastel apex]

No evidence that I've seen

[gaunt marsh]

There is some video being shared alongside these images (can scroll down in some of these twitter threads) that show dead bodies in civilian clothing in the streets. People are linking the two things, but there's no evidence they are related.

[knotty tundra]

Can't rule out they were killed during capture, but those bodies are not the same people they rounded up, they're fully clothed.

[queen marsh]

Just found this on-the-ground video news report posted 8 hours ago of reportedly thousands of people forced out from two schools near the Indonesian hospital, which is inside Beit Lahia where the mass arrest images were gelocated to based on street signs.

The man recording states that they were forced out an "some were executed".

The old man interviewed says that they are being "slaughtered" by planes, but more specifically he says "they're shooting people one-by-one while they're sitting."

Next, the crying man says that they executed people in front of their families. He says they executed men in front of their children and parents. He says he saw 8-9 dead on the ground. He gives an example and says he saw one man be executed with a shot to the head. At points his talking is unclear to me, so I cannot determine if this was done from point blank or from a distance.

The woman after that says they were given 1 hour and a half to evacuate because the schools would be searched and that they've been without food and water for 4 days. She does not mention executions.
https://vxtwitter.com/AJA_Palestine/status/1732750116904202411

Seems impossible to tell where the video of the bodies is, but I have only seen it posted with the claim that it's from one of the schools. One of the dead men is clutching a white flag and the other is lying over a stretcher, which seems to reinforce the idea that they were undertaking some kind of evacuation.

[gray locust]

I've seen that, it said school near the Indonsian Hospital. There's some colored rubble, maybe it can be geolocated cc @ancient raptor

[ancient raptor]

I'll try my best but it seems very difficult/impossible. Reports suggests it is in/near the Aleppo School (near the Indonesian Hospital) which, according to Wikimapia is here: http://wikimapia.org/26104494/Aleppo-School#ge

[gray locust]

Big complex. The color fits, maybe the pattern of the ground is in some photos.

[ancient raptor]

True, but it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the (UN) schools in Gaza look similar and use similar patterns. There are also more schools in the area.

[gray locust]

Will try tomorrow

[queen marsh]

The friend of the allegedly executed men in the video has identified them, says he spoke to their families and that they were indeed executed in front of their families while trying to evacuate.
CW: the video included
||https://vxtwitter.com/Mohammed_awed12/status/1732756199211237710?s=20||

Along with the eyewitnesses testimonies from the AJ video, it seems that the claim that all men stripped and detained were executed is not substantiated but that some of those detained or fleeing the schools in northern Gaza were indeed killed in a fashion that has witnesses and survivors specifically using the word "execution".

[hollow night]

No, that is not proof that some of the detained were executed.

[azure gust]

This was also documented by Euro med monitor, used as a source by NOS (Dutch broadcaster):

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6012/Israel-arrests,-abuses-dozens-of-Palestinian-civilians-at-UNRWA-run-schools-in-northern-Gaza

[sonic hearth]

It is helpful if you explain your reasoning, instead of just "No"

[sharp hawk]

Sorry to bring this back up but Harvard's policy literally says that speech against individuals is what they can handle and Stefanik likely designed that question as a set up. President Gay's answer was spot on with their policy.
https://handbook.college.harvard.edu/sites/projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/collegehandbook/files/harvard_college_student_handbook_2023-2024.pdf

Relevant policy

[queen marsh]

That's why I said "detained or fleeing", it's unclear if they were killed while detained or killed while fleeing based on the language of the eye witness testimony. Hope that clarifies.

[bronze crystal]

Considering the white flag in hands of one of them and a stretcher nearby, if they were detained - I think it was likely the very start of detainment (order to stop).
The cat sitting on the chest of one of the bodies makes it somehow more real.

Not disinfo, but an interesting article on pro-Israel propaganda, not sure if it is better to post it here or in another channel.
https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information

[queen marsh]

In the video we see only some of the bodies. The crying man in the AJA interview posted earlier claims he saw 8 or 9. Probably impossible to know unless we get more statements from witness and family.

[fluid cloak]

Sorry all, just seeing this. Aric's right, various groupings of editors across the paper try different versions of headlines at various times. Sometimes it's to see how much it changes traffic to a story. Sometimes it's just to make it better. The people who handle print headlines are different from those who handled web headlines. Sometimes, as was the case in this print headline, the reporters have no input or foreknowledge about what it will be

[gray locust]

Is this for real?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0mhEVPKDTY/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

eye.on.palestine

The Israeli broadcaster Rotem Achihon writes messages of “greetings and blessings” on the tank shells that will bomb the Gaza Strip.

المذيعة الإسرائيلية روتم أخيهون تكتب رسائل “تحية ومباركات” على القذائف التي ستقصف قطاع غزة

Likes

95949

Instagram

[wary jewel]

The signing looks real. But that specific round she is signing is a Smoke HC round.

[gray locust]

Ok, thank you.

[wary jewel]

Also to be clear those are 155mm artillery rounds, not tank rounds.

[limpid rose]

It is. See the first link here, it’s the official FB account of Kan, the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation

#israel-palestine message

And here on their TikTok account

https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSN4ScoLF/

Twitter as well

https://x.com/kann/status/1732352936146055299

On FB and Twitter they are getting mostly criticism from Israelis, on TikTok however, the comments are very supportive

What she wrote:
Go * * * # $* *
From Kan Digital

(לכו * * * # $ * * מכאן דיגיטל)

[gray locust]

thx, no words,

[tepid heart]

Writing messages on artillery shells became popular last year in Ukraine, not surprising that it would also happen here

[gray locust]

by soldiers, not by a invited public tv station

[limpid rose]

Oh, and she doesn’t ask "Can I just write a number?"
She says "can we curse on [Kan] Digital?"
(אפשר לקלל בדיגיטל?)

Another thing the translation missed, in the end she says:
2-3, launch
2-3, give it to them
2-3, I feel like cursing
2-3, I feel like damning
2-3, I feel like harming them

Heb:
2-3, שגר
2־3, תכניס להם
2־3, בא לי לקלל
2־3, בא לי לנבל
2־3, בא לי להרע להם

[limpid rose]

Oh it’s not a new thing in Israel at all, it goes way back

[limpid rose]

Maybe the most famous photo, from 2006 (2nd Israel-Lebanon war)

https://www.jpost.com/israel/online-controversy-over-graffiti-by-israeli-kids

[gray locust]

i didnt expect kids involved

[limpid rose]

These photos from 2006 are sometimes presented as directed at Palestinians although in some angles you can see it says "to Nazrala [Hassan Nassrallah] with love"

I saw it in this war as well but can’t remember where. Here’s an example from 2012
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/13at7a/israeli_children_writing_messages_on_missiles_for/

[spice tundra]

reminds me of this (#1161401676943609907 message) from Nov 10, with the writing 'inshallah may it hit "innocent people" ' (edit: not the kids specifically, just alleged instances of writing on shells)

[limpid rose]

There are many examples of the indoctrination of kids as part of the militarization in the Israeli society and I think it’s important to note since the pro-Israel propaganda usually presents Palestinian kids as being indoctrinated to hate while claiming Israeli kids are being taught to seek peace.
2012
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination

2014
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2014-05-07/ty-article/.premium/parental-love-israeli-style/0000017f-e957-d639-af7f-e9d7c7830000
2017
https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232182

A more recent example is the use of children in this propaganda song:

https://vxtwitter.com/intifada/status/1726345295515058255

[wary jewel]

It's been a thing for a long time, here's a picture from WW2. I just think Ukraine might be the first instance of it's use as a major fundraising method, but that isn't even an official entity.
https://armyhistory.org/u-s-and-german-field-artillery-in-world-war-ii-a-comparison/
https://signmyrocket.com/#whoweare

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1733098148053016922
More baseless accusations that UN workers in Gaza are Hamas combatants. 5.6 million views.

[queen marsh]

Deep dive into one of the media's chief sources regarding Oct 7 sexual assault allegations: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/

[digital basin]

MBFC on mondoweiss.net:

Reasoning: Propaganda, Hate Group, Misinformation
Bias Rating: LEFT
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: MOSTLY FREE
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: Medium Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY
**-- https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mondoweiss/ **

As I pointed out in #gender-based-violence-misogyny (where I suspect the discussion really belongs):

• Testimonies and evidence are subject to victim recovery as well as progress of criminal cases, and depending on jurisdiction, parts of evidence and testimony may be subject to gag orders or redaction;
• Expectations on harder evidence emerging quickly need to be tempered because of the above;
• Please, please, don't politicize GBV/SV or attack the believability of victims because of politics. You are not making things easier, rather the polar opposite.

[bronze crystal]

This article goes over multiple specific reports, and states in what way they do not fit the actual reality.

[digital basin]

And mondoweiss.net has access to actual forensic data and isreli police reports?

[bronze crystal]

Just read the article.

[digital basin]

I've been burned by mondoweiss.net numerous times before.

[sonic hearth]

The discussion does not belong in #gender-based-violence-misogyny as long as it is centered on faults of the people reporting on it or claimed biases of people speaking about it. It only belongs there when you speak of the victims themselves, or patterns of GBV.

[digital basin]

Ah.

[sonic hearth]

There are tons of survivors and it is my goal and policy that they will not have to read that type of thing in that channel, as many go on to become advocates.

[bronze crystal]

I'll verify some of the things in that article that I can, and let you know later.

[digital basin]

Anyways, as someone who's dealt with victims of CSA and SA more times than I want to remember in my life, I find the politicization of the believability of reports of GBV in this setting distasteful, because I know how long the recovery may take (if it occurs at all), and privacy rules which impose gag orders on parties in any upcoming court cases.
I'm full aware that peoples mind tend strongly to recoil at sexual atrocities committed when they are extreme, especially in the case when they're committed by a side they support (or in its name), and will grasp at any straw to dismiss reports of such atrocities, and the longer someone stays in that mindset, the more difficult it is to walk back to objectivity afterwards.
Also -- I can't believe that I have to point this out -- but by attacking the credibility people who claim systemic sexual atrocities on 2023-10-07, you also erode the credibility of Palestinian victims of GBV/SV on part of Israeli authorities, and that will happen much faster than anyone thinks.
All we have at this point are reports and briefings of varying degrees of believability, and all we can deduce is where they are on the implausible-TCTC (Too Close To Call)-plausible scale until further detailed interviews (some may never recover to the point of being interviewable) and forensic evidence becomes available (and all may not become available due to privacy laws).

[pastel apex]

Thanks for laying out your thoughts on this in this way

[digital basin]

I'm trying not to rant, it's an issue I've cared a lot about for decades (long before this).
*inhales*
1... 2... 3... 4...
*exhales*
1... 2... 3... 4...

[pastel apex]

FWIW I completely agree with you and, again, I thank you for having the patience and the strength to lay that out so clearly and persuasively

[knotty chasm]

That article makes multiple politically fallacious arguments and claims that are easily disproven either by basic common sense or by further investigation of sources they provided.

[bronze crystal]

Just some confirmation about the mentioned "Soldier testimonies" from the article:

1. ||"two girls aged between 13 and 15" in Be'eri ("Soldier testimony") - what is said in article is correct - possible match could have been 13 and 16 y.o sisters, but one of them was found in a different location. Others from Be'eri would just not much the description (by age, or for being found in a burned house). ||
2. ||"two girls" in Nahal Oz (the second soldier testimony, from Republic video, that is dismissed for reasons described in the article) - some possibility for a match (18 and 20 y.o sisters killed (not 13-15 as described by "soldier"), but coordinates that I have (and can not verify to be true) specify that they were found ~65 meters from each other).||
   I have not checked other claims in the article, but expect them to be true (some of those claims I've read previously in other places).

[slender cedar]

mondoweiss used to employ Max Blumenthal .. that already makes me trust them less

[digital basin]

Like, what would constitute compelling evidence that systematic sexual atrocities occurred on 2023-10-07?

• ||Forensic examination of victims, e.g. abrasions and bruising on exterior and interior of pelvic region||?
• ||DNA matches from body fluid collected from victims and alleged perpetrators||?
• ||Interviews with victims and witnesses||?
• ||CCTV and Go-Pro video, either recorded or live-streamed during the events||?
  ⚠️ CW/TW: General descriptions of evidence and testimony often occurring in CSA and SA cases ⚠️

[bronze crystal]

I think for many it would be enough if an independent/international human rights org was allowed to review all the related evidence available to Israeli police / IDF / health institutions related to those claims and to make a report on that.

[digital basin]

Would ICC suffice?

[bronze crystal]

I think yes.

[knotty chasm]

Right from the get-go it diminishes the scholarship of Elkayam Levy and states she was falsely claimed to be a "Human Rights Expert" despite the fact a simple google search can bring you to her credentials page from Penn State. Which very clearly states her expertise on international humanitarian law.

Furthermore they mention a paper she wrote and uses it to conflate her with advocating for torture. One they obviously didn't bother to read considering the entire paper is focused on trying to prevent inmates from -starving- themselves. The paper even directly mentions the use of instances of restrained and tube forced feeding in the past and explicatly decries them as means of torture.

https://docplayer.net/24918924-Cochav-elkayam-levy.html
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/profiles/512-cochav-elkayam-levy

[digital basin]

The ICC has asked for evidence to be submitted to the prosecutor, chamber, so they may already have compelling reports to warrant consideration whether to initiate a preliminary investigation.

You also have the UN recently deciding to initiate a COI on the issue.

[queen marsh]

I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree with your call to avoid discussing this topic from the perspective of war propaganda or state propaganda.

I think the credibility of the source spreading the allegations to media during a wartime environment is in fact pertinent, and until we have the results of an impartial investigation we should in fact interrogate specific claims by specific actors who are - as in the article - former military spokespersons with dodgy human rights records and close association with a government whose credibility is in question.

[bronze crystal]

That mondoweiss article matches my perception of situation too well.
CW: just bad ||Specifically that it is unreasonable to assume that rapes did not happen, but to claim that there were mass rapes (planned/ordered) - a strong and independently verified evidence is required.
And that the current Israeli propaganda uses the ideas of especially atrocious acts like mass rapes and whatever was falsely claimed in relation to babies to justify it's own atrocities against Palestinians.||

[queen marsh]

We can agree to disagree, I don't think rehashing this issue will get us anywhere. Once again this is not a broad denial but a specific piece about a specific news report presenting accusations without properly characterizing the political position and credibility of the persons they are interviewing or quoting.

[digital basin]

I'm not even asking you to avoid discussing the topic, rather, use judgment as in how you call reports into question, and be aware of the potential downstream effects of your actions, both in terms of outcome for the victims as well as for yourself personally.

[pastel apex]

(periodic reminder that you can block individual users if you don't wan to read their posts)

[gray locust]

The woman in me screams stop it now

[digital basin]

The guy who has all too often been the shoulder to cry on screams stop it now as well 😢

[knotty chasm]

I'm going to refrain from further commenting on the article as well because at this point I'm too disgusted by it to not steer full on into gonzo territory.

[pastel apex]

Alright let's all move on now, thanks

[digital basin]

Inserts <MuppetsMovingRightAlong.gif>

[twilit granite]

Threads claiming it's staged because there are two different videos of the same guy placing the weapon down in act of surrender in 2 different "takes", in each of which he holds the weapon on opposite hands
https://twitter.com/wyattreed13/status/1733632902460579861?s=19
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1733575203110711549?t=oLpqeoVHcM6qBX-2DUazHA&s=19

Already discussed in israel-palestine

[gray locust]

I can't tell you how much this annoys me.

[opal fulcrum]

Not the first time propagandists are claiming things are staged unfortunately

[limpid shore]

Wow just wow! Barack Ravid lost all my respect

[bronze crystal]

The event have been discussed in another channel, I think, to a conclusion.
Check out these messages (and what they are replying to):
#israel-palestine message
#israel-palestine message

[queen marsh]

Okay... there is a LOT going on in bkth this post and the accompanying video: https://vxtwitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1733617964883067277?s=20

[opal fulcrum]

from the link "Israeli propaganda fail, take 200 🎬

Israeli propaganda continues to be a source of amusement. Not only have they published pictures of their soldiers heroically battling ghosts, but they've also released a video intended to confirm their fabricated narratives in one fell swoop.

The video, conveniently filmed in English, features Israeli soldiers calmly examining aid packages. However, the packages themselves betray the truth. One bag, labeled "UNRWA," is pristine and new, while the other, labeled "USAID," appears used and slightly worn. This exposes the staged nature of the video and the deliberate attempt to frame the Palestinian resistance as recipients of foreign military aid.

Furthermore, the presence of all Israeli propaganda tools; toys, school supplies, and shelter materials in one scene further undermines the Israeli narrative. The soldier's nonchalant examination of the bags, seemingly unconcerned about potential explosives or hazards, adds another layer of absurdity to the scene.

This video serves as a perfect illustration of the inconsistencies and illogicality that plague Israeli propaganda. Instead of achieving their desired objective, they've inadvertently provided further evidence of their fabricated claims and offered the world an opportunity to chuckle at their expense."

Can you explain what is the issue with this video?

[scarlet orbit]

Hi, this is not really the tone we want the discourse here to have. So please lurk for a while and read our #rules and the latest announcement in #announcements. Additionally, please always provide a link, not just a screenshot. We are focused on open-source research here, so we value people being able to check a claim for themselves.

[scarlet orbit]

Please use quote tags (by prefixing a line with >) or use quotation marks. Otherwise, it's very difficult to identify which parts are the quote and which parts are your comments.

[gray locust]

He didn't say its an issue. It's more to analyze it 🤷🏻‍♀️

I am very very disappointed

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1733848615175504054?t=ueyNwGiklZPHoJZQbc8A6A&s=19

For those who dont know Wyatt, it's Grayzone

[queen night]

That's gives context into why Eliot weighted in here

[gray locust]

He retweeted him, looks like he didn't understand it

[slender cedar]

at this point is there any journalists who don't collaborate with Grayzone .. (I know there is, just... fewer)

[azure gust]

Marc Owen Jones claims to be a disinformation researcher and fighter yet functions an instrument and vehicle of that very thing.

[scarlet orbit]

Since we're looking at Marc Owen Jones right now, how about this tweet:
https://vxtwitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1733844999693898111

From what I could gather, the funding was cut because the organisation supported BDS, which, according to the statement quoted here, is a violation of the ministry's funding criteria.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-germany-anti-human-trafficking-programme-funding-cut-ceasefire-call

It's something that seems to be happening a lot in this conflict. Disinformation is often not blatantly wrong (though it sometimes is), but it instead twists the facts slightly to support one of the sides.

[queen night]

Pick your favourite quote saying that the best lies are the ones that have a bit/nugget/seasoning/core of truth in them

[slender cedar]

slightly off topic, but if you want to see funny takes on Marc Owen Jones you can always count on Oz Katerji 😉

[strong forum]

The thing that stands out to me as nonsensical is the bit with the teddy bear. They say they’re going to cut it open to show the weapons inside. How do they know the weapons are there when they haven’t cut it open? (Also the whole thing is in English, which echoes the Shifa hospital MRI room “reveals” in seemingly created for a Western audience, yet the larger framing is not “official” in any way. Seemingly just some soldiers who decided to record what they found. This seems odd to me.)

[scarlet orbit]

Devil's advocate: You can detect hidden objects in stuffed animals via tactile means, but it's hard to show that on video.

[queen marsh]

We don't know when this video was filmed, but woukd be useful to know where it was filmed and how long they've been there.

[sly gale]

Yeah watching that specific video, with the size of the objects, it's not impossible in a sensory sense to figure out that way. If it was like loose bullets you might have a hard time but, you'd definitely be able to feel something that large in a stuffed animal, same way you can feel things to squeeze inside for sounds etc.

[queen marsh]

In retrospect, we could probably argue about the plausibility or implausibility of the videos forever and not reach a fact-based conclusion. Same with the crowd of detained and stripped civilians surrendering 3 guns. I think I'll refrain from posting them unless there are elements of the video that can be conclusively fact-checked.

[strong forum]

Yeah, admittedly it's hard with some of these not to turn around and say omg what is going on in THIS one!!! 😂 And @scarlet orbit your point about the guns is sound. But now I'm laughing at the idea of them feeling up a teddy bear.

[opal fulcrum]

When they pick it up you can see there's a small part where there's stuffing coming out, if I had to guess they already scanned the room, noticed the heavy teddy bear, put an hand inside and thought it was an AK47 (due to them saying there's an AK inside) so they started filming, but then it turned out to be a Dragonov.

The other scenario being they invaded Gaza to make up videos for twitter which is kinda nonsensical to me

[digital basin]

INB4 PR op circulating about alleged sexual harassment of teddy bears? 🤔
*slaps self*

[opal fulcrum]

Before he starts cutting it open, you can also say they put the weapon inside through the same hole, although that seems unlikely given the size of the entrance and the size of the rifle and ammo box

[sonic hearth]

very long shot but there are those airport scanners that you put your luggage through and they x-ray it to see what you've got. I don't know if there are portable versions, or why the military would start scanning teddy bears. (funny story, whenever I check a bag with a stuffed animal, I get the pamphlet in my suitcase that the TSA has opened my bag for inspection)

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/1733914065531978072
Netanyahu seems to be taking a victory lap, claiming that detainees in northern regions were masses of combatants surrendering.

[opal fulcrum]

If you were someone looking for weapons in mundane objects, weight alone would suggest this teddy has something big inside, an ammo box weighs quite a bit and a dragonov rifle as well

[queen marsh]

Since we're speculating, the scenario of combatants hiding arms specifically in UN and US aid bags and teddy bears that are lying around seems "just so" to me, and doesn't make particular strategic sense either. About as much sense as putting a grab bag of metallic weapons behind an MRI machine. What's the point of the tunnels then?

[opal fulcrum]

Hamas battle doctrine makes use of civilian infrastructure, afaik no one is disproving the existence of said tunnels next to schools etc, their tactic benefits by leaving ammo caches littered around

[sonic hearth]

I'm saying the technology exists, and since I'm not a soldier, I'm curious to learn if it exists in a portable format

[digital basin]

I wonder if it'd be okay in terms of GC/HC, as x-ray sources could be weaponised. But at least a car mobile variant doesn't sound impossible.

[queen marsh]

Is it possible that it's a kind of metal detector?

[mystic root]

I thought we had reason to believe the MRI could've been out of operation for some time

[digital basin]

Yep. And an MRI machine is only dangerous with metals when powered up or unquenched.

[sonic hearth]

I assume in the airport they are using a metal detector as well as imaging, and they suspect that I am smuggling drugs in stuffed animals, so that's why they do the hand check

[opal fulcrum]

it reminds me of this video where they showcase a missile making site right outside a classroom, so it's not exactly unheard of, also, fake ak47s make a comeback https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmZr9ILyo6w

[mystic root]

Metal detection wands are pretty commonplace in a security context. I believe I've seen a video with IDF using them

[digital basin]

Also, you have variants where you which look like shrunk "classical" metal detectors, and there are variants for coin acceptors which aren't much larger than the coin chute.

[sonic hearth]

yes I am talking about the specific imaging technology at US airport security checkpoints where they x-ray your bag.

but I'm going to host book club so I'll check back later

[wary jewel]

There are portable versions and they've been in pretty widespread use. Standard bomb disposal/EOD equipment
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/263413/out-with-old-with-new-modernized-eod-x-ray-system-saves-time-lives

[queen marsh]

IIRC the length of time it was out of operation is disputed and it takes a while for it not to be magnetic. In any case the claim that weapons were stored in medical facilities is disputed by virtually all testimony given by those who worked in the hospital. On top of that, we have clear evidence of IDF playing with the alleged evidence behind the MRI.

[opal fulcrum]

What about the basement where they kept hostages and had a calander starting from Oct 7th? medical testimony in Gaza isn't as reliable as you might think, doctors saying hundres of people died in the hospital courtyard explosion comes to mind

https://www.france24.com/en/video/20231114-israeli-army-releases-video-of-gaza-hospital-where-hostages-were-reportedly-held

[digital basin]

How fast a MRI loses it mag field when powered down or quenched: https://youtu.be/9SOUJP5dFEg

It's minutes from BRS push to zero mag field.

And if it simply loses power, probably faster than that, because the magnetic field in an MRI is not generated by perm magnets, but electromagnetically.

[queen marsh]

Yeah and power to the hospital was cut for days before the siege IIRC.

[twilit granite]

They did log more than 400 deaths by the end of the day at al-ahli hospital. Of course you can questions everything but there won't be any way to know if no one is allowed into Gaza (except the UNICEF James and the other unicef woman who I think are out now)

[digital basin]

Yep, once images came out, the size of the crater suggested something the size of a mortar round, and the burn around the scene combined with significant absence of shrapnel damage suggests something ignited flammable liquid.
Which is consistent with a rocket experiencing premature flame-out and coming down in the parking lot, suffering at least a partial warhead detonation which ignited the rockets propellant.
As to how many casualties, it's anyone's guess, but a reasonable guesstimate would be 50-150 people, with maybe up to twice that injured.
Which, given the initial 471 casualties claim (the speed at which the claim came is very suspect in its own right), leaves 321 to 421 casualties which never existed.

[opal fulcrum]

They claimed 800 deaths, and to be honest 400 is looking like an extremely big number considering the pot hole the rocket created

[strong forum]

They claimed 500 deaths at the press conference.

[twilit granite]

#1164615723755241472 message

[digital basin]

Also, they went public with in the 500 dead figure within hours of the incident, while Israeli authorities, which have better resources as to emergency response and forensics, still were trying to establish the body count of the 2023-10-07 attack at that point.
Not to mention officials stating that those 500 died in less than a minute.
And yeah, sanitized scene and chaperoned press after the incident.

[opal fulcrum]

There have been multiple independent investigation into the matter which concluded it wasn't an Israeli attack, as I said before, you can't take Gaza's medical staff testimony as gospel, nor can you take Israel's, but if you remember this incident, we had a video of a giant explosion which never existed in evidence, it's a problematic incident that highlights problematic testimony.

[knotty tundra]

The only investigations I've seen said it was most likely not one of the large aircraft bombs Israel uses. Also, we have #1164615723755241472 where this all has been discussed extensively.

Please remember we are here to find out what happened, not to prove we believe happened.

[opal fulcrum]

At the time Israel was only using air strikes, but I agree, this is treading water

[wary jewel]

That's not true. Artillery rounds were being used, an illumination round had hit Al Ahli 3 days prior to the explosion. https://web.archive.org/web/20231027170249/https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/

[queen marsh]

Israel was firing artillery shells at that point.

[opal fulcrum]

this doesn't mention any illumination round?

correct me if I'm wrong here

[wary jewel]

Direct link, bad archive. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/

[opal fulcrum]

I stand corrected

although I can't fathom an artillery round killing 500-800 people, which was the claim being made (claimed as an airstrike)

here's the chain of reporting done at the time https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/israeli-genocide:-israeli-murders-800-in-gaza-hospital-bombi

[hollow night]

Oh great that picture isn't even from the scene.

[opal fulcrum]

I actually remember that picture circulating at the time being presented as taken on the ground, so it's not surprising they included it

[wary jewel]

No, Subtle Knife just said investigations said it was most likely not a large aircraft bomb Israel uses, ie JDAMs. Israel has a range of missiles, and smaller bombs at their disposal, not just artillery rounds. But this has been discussed in significant depth in https://discord.com/channels/709752884257882135/1164615723755241472 and has had all the published investigations by various organizations, WaPo, NYT, HRW, Al Jazeera, and Forensic Archetirue posted and discussed there.

[hollow night]

Yeah i may be wrong on that. Hadn't seen it somehow.

[gray locust]

We spend so much time on that, just take an hour to read back

[sonic hearth]

thanks!

[outer pumice]

Relevant to the reporting around al-ahli
https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote

[strong forum]

This was the clip of the press conference that circulated, Al-Jazeera live feed, where the screen says
"500 martyrs ...
at Hosp..."
but it's all clipped to fit, so maybe the full text said
"500 martyrs and wounded
at Hospital Al-Ahli"
(I admit I took my assumption of 500 dead directly from this!)

[sonic hearth]

well people used "casualties" a lot, too, and some use casualties as "dead" and others use casualties as "dead and injured". there have been a LOT of what I would term "miscommunication incidents" in this conflict and that was a notable one

[glacial spade]

I'm not gonna start a discussion or dont wanna insert political statements but It's the same video calling multiple disputed allegations like anouncing the weekdays as terrorist, showing water pump in hospital basement as evidence or showing dolls in a child hospital as evidence of holding the hostages. It's not the most reputable video.

[glacial spade]

Especially it's hard to re-correct the shared data while there is communication and internet cutoffs

[glacial spade]

my reply was gonna be for that, not the france24 link.

[opal fulcrum]

Outside of poor translation in regards to terrorist names, why would a calendar starting from Oct 7th be found in a basement of a child hospital when children were abducted?

[gray locust]

We went through this before, is it so hard to stay focused on osr or go back and read

[glacial spade]

As i said i dont wanna discuss an off-topic thing. But in context of evidence thats not how it's work or thats not how the things work. These allegations are no difference than conspiracy theories as-in thinking. There could be multiple things, it would be wrong to limit any event to only one subject without having an tactable evidence suggesting that.

[opal fulcrum]

saying you don't want to start discussion while starting a discussion is a weird move but sure, I'll refrain from participating in the discussion.

[pastel apex]

Folks, this isn't a debate server. Please read the #rules and stick to the topics of the channels. Thank you.

[glacial spade]

Did Jack Poulson's claims about J-Ventures[^1] get analyzed? There is bunch of names, documents, links in the shared post and excel files (partialy redacted)

update: espacially in Jventures_Ief_Redacted.xlsx, sections DonationsSupport and Asks Offers
[^1] https://jackpoulson.substack.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information

[opal fulcrum]

seems like there's a zara boycott now, any idea who is behind the ad campaign? https://twitter.com/noor_a25/status/1733546854388818281

[knotty tundra]

How long does it usually take to set up an ad campaign?

[sonic hearth]

did you do any looking through zara's previous ad campaigns to see when the left picture originated?

[glacial spade]

for the details of the photoshoot: https://models.com/work/zara-zara-atelier-collection-04-lookbook/viewAll

one of the models (@zacolive) in the potshots wrote, maybe that could help to identify the traces if the photoshots/campaign

@zara Atelier Campaign. Shot by #timwalker - such a legendary team!🫶🏻 Creative direction by Fabien Baron, art direction by Shona Heath, styling by Ludivine Poiblanc, hair by Ali Pirzadeh, make-up by Terry Barber, casting by AAMØ.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0mEv3cNy7d/

zacolive

@zara Atelier Campaign. Shot by #timwalker - such a legendary team!🫶🏻 Creative direction by Fabien Baron, art direction by Shona Heath, styling by Ludivine Poiblanc, hair by Ali Pirzadeh, make-up by Terry Barber, casting by AAMØ.

Instagram

Also he is saying the photoshoots are made in September

[sonic hearth]

I'm unfamiliar with this source but there's a lot of people quoted so if anyone wanted to look into it, here ya go https://www.thenationalnews.com/lifestyle/fashion-beauty/2023/12/10/zara-campaign-boycott-gaza-palestine/

[knotty tundra]

Which is a much more realistic timeline.

[opal fulcrum]

oof

[queen marsh]

https://www.leefang.com/p/inside-the-pro-israel-information

[opal fulcrum]

#1161401676943609907 message

[glossy minnow]

Interesting to see one of “Twitter Files” authors in the disinfo channel. Good place for the author articles to be.

[opal fulcrum]

in regard to the topic of writing on armaments, came across this image (for non techies, it's a command used in linux to delete everything while connecting to Hassan's bunker, the leader of Hezbollah)

[queen marsh]

If you're concerned about the veracity of the report, they've attached some of the contents being summarized in the article itself. Personally I recall Taibbi and Shellenberger being the main disinfo purveyors wrt Twitter Files.

[opal fulcrum]

Is there an equivalent article about the Palestinian information war?, I'm familiar with the Israeli side but don't see a lot of in-depth articles on the other, since Palestinians don't have a state, I'm left wondering which nationalities are driving all the hitler imagery etc and how their operations sounds like on the inside

[glacial spade]

I didn’t see the majority of these. Did anybody saw them?

tw: graphic description of injuries/sexual violence

||https://vxtwitter.com/mdubowitz/status/1733904273316962707||

[opal fulcrum]

might want to spoiler that link

[glacial spade]

No graphics tho, just allegations

[opal fulcrum]

I was timed out for a similar thing, just giving you a heads up

[glacial spade]

I tried to watch all videos shared during the war but I never saw these in videos. Marked as red

tw: graphic description of injuries/sexual violence

[opal fulcrum]

I didn't watch the Oct 7th videos because, well, I don't want to, but someone commented this url, ||https://oct7th.org/||

[pastel apex]

I think I saw a good chunk of them and none of the items in red right a bell

[limpid rose]

Can you add an explanation of what/why is spoilered so ppl don’t have to click on it to find out? (i.e. graphic description of injuries/sexual violence etc. )

[limpid rose]

I have some concerns but can’t go into it right. Will elaborate later this evening

[queen marsh]

https://vxtwitter.com/LiliPerles/status/1733976842372100258/video/1
Mayor of Nice spreading "fake plastic babies" disinformation

[limpid rose]

Also, i must have missed the summary you attached and couldn’t find it, can you link to it?

[queen marsh]

No, I mean the article in itself is largely a summary of events and correspondences, some of which are embedded in the form of text chat log files in the article itself.

[glacial spade]

The one sentence summary: There is a company called j-ventures a big venture company in the slicon valley. after 7 October they cooperate with the israel government agencies for propaganda, organizing the propaganda, spreading the propaganda and helping israels finding (by donate etc) the missing goods in israel

[limpid rose]

Saw 2 xlsx files and 1 screenshot. Am I missing something ? (Going into a meeting so tbc)

[glacial spade]

the xlsx has tabs, there is usefull infos there

espacially in Jventures_Ief_Redacted.xlsx, sections DonationsSupport and Asks Offers

[glacial spade]

I just finished checking the mentioned url. Still there is no suggested evidence about the claims above

[opal fulcrum]

somewhat connected but I saw Dr.Phil's video by chance, he mentions similar things but in the context of a restricted video he was shown, perhaps it's connected, perhaps not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7obMkX48o7s

[gray locust]

https://fxtwitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1734176234911711254?t=NosV2zk0K1eiKFA8b9UV2Q&s=19

[gray locust]

https://fxtwitter.com/Shayan86/status/1734235980461179331?s=19

[glacial spade]

https://vxtwitter.com/iainoverton/status/1734213497041379363

https://vxtwitter.com/danbarker/status/1733628634617856319

forgot to add the raw data for the poll
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf

looks like @elikowaz is not enough "Middle East Analyst". Dr Iain, noted that he send a private message to Eli for deletion but eli rejected the idea for deletion or fixing his wrong statements

also the author of the citied data requested a community note for that.
https://vxtwitter.com/iainoverton/status/1734222693463957726

[digital basin]

So, I have a TikTok video which I'm unsure if it's misinformation, disinformation, or plain old trolling... Is it okay to post it as a heads-up / comic relief in the channel?

[sonic hearth]

Hey...i think we can do without unless there's a clear research reason. The conflict is too heated, imo, for posting things that we don't really need to examine in an open source way.
A lot of people are rage-baiting and posting outlandish stuff to get, for example, Twitter Blue payouts based on views, so let's make sure it's actually something open source research can contribute to

[digital basin]

Re: The distranslation of the Swedish PM at a Q & A in Gothenburg.
Albeit analysed to hell and back already, this one is posted to aid learning how to spot and impede future such events.
https://www.logicallyfacts.com/en/analysis/a-game-of-whispers-how-a-mistranslation-of-the-swedish-pm-made-global-headlines

[broken horizon]

I apologize for bringing up something from a few days ago, I hope that’s ok.

The discussions on Dec 10th about how the IDF found weapons in toys, bears, etc, had a lot of ideas I would have never thought of. But did we consider dogs?

Dogs can detect weapons, ammunition, explosives, etc. The Israeli canine unit Oketz has dogs trained in those skills, and they have video and news stories during this conflict showing the Oketz and what they are doing.

The US also uses them. After 9/11 the Brits taught us the SSD concept (specialized search dogs) where we learned to work with the dogs and train them to find firearms, ammunition, and explosives during route searches, building searches, open areas, etc.

The dogs can find threats very fast and have an extremely high accuracy rate.

Some sources -

https://www.saw.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Stories/Article/1656184/us-army-engineer-specialized-search-dogs/

https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/paw-power-all-about-israel-militarys-canine-unit-oketz-which-helped-save-200-lives-13255872.html

[opal fulcrum]

I've seen this source shared quite a few times and passed as genuine, the whole tweet is a lie https://vxtwitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1734309280763854928

[opal fulcrum]

dogs are widely used in the IDF and in Gaza, here's an article about one such recent incident https://www.israelhayom.co.il/animals/article/14844598, although perhaps this isn't the channel to discuss it

[gray locust]

they were used in the hospitals, four dogs died. best channel for this is #israel-palestine or if youre unsure, ask a mod. an look at welcome and server news as a guide. welcome.

[glacial spade]

The UAE, and Saudi media (and social media) sharing someone called Suhaib Al-Kahlot (in arabic letters, صهيب الكحلوت) as he is Abu Obeida and he is living in Qatar and Turkey, works for AJ,.
The claim is suddenly made by the Saudi's and shared directly by people close to UAE and Saudia at the social media.
Also some of the israeli-turks shared the claim in the same period of time

[glacial spade]

examples, not limited to:

https://twitter.com/Columbuos/status/1734122825756078149
https://twitter.com/hodajannat/status/1733899525201318174
https://twitter.com/ks96604/status/1734282312190165202
https://twitter.com/for_me_now21921/status/1734282736964157936
https://twitter.com/for_me_now21921/status/1733922285331886494
https://twitter.com/AbuDhabi_5G/status/1734186270178582705
https://twitter.com/a7meod_/status/1733920219930718262
https://twitter.com/Ama5668/status/1734256491991871841

[queen marsh]

Oof... if we were to get into Gulf Twitter disinfo we'd be swamped...

[queen marsh]

So many of these are from the "draw useless red circles" genre of disinfo graphic

[glacial spade]

Yes, i just wanted to share since it's suddenly came from the saduia-uae sources, like a state-sponsered disinfo

[queen marsh]

It's definitely possible that it was first posted by state-linked media first. But there are an inordinate amount of Saudi bots on X, so it could come from there too.

Most stories I've seen come from small-time tabloids like the 3 top results when you search his name, pictured above

[willow lynx]

"bogus respondents" should be equal among Democrats and Republicans but in this case Democrats have more Holocaust Denial. This Tweet does not explain this.

[glacial spade]

(for more context, not taking a side)
https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48112-increasing-numbers-of-americans-say-antisemitism-is-a-serious-problem
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf

[queen marsh]

If I had to speculate on plausibility, the man appears to be an Islamic preacher and teacher in Gaza. His voice does indeed resemble that of Abu Obeidah. But no evidence beyond that seems to be out there:

Compare, Al Kahlout: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZkbltoqZqE

Abu Ubaidah:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LjuqAUk5Ek

There is zero evidence he works with Al Jazeera or that he is in Qatar or Turkey either.

(Posted Abu Ubeidah twicd by accident, fixed now)

[strong forum]

I wonder if this al-Kahlout story is why the journalist Diaa al-Kahlout got scooped up in the Beit Lahia arrests and afaik not released yet. "Same name -- must be related!" (Or more cynically, this is ex post facto disinfo to make it seem like his arrest is justified?)

[strong forum]

Half the post is a lie, more like? The first part is appears to be an accurate summary of the article. But the article does not imply (as far as I can tell, via Google Translate) that the reason they want an investigation is because they think the IDF killed people, and it does not mention this issue.

[limpid rose]

The article says that the families of the Nova victims are demanding recognition and the creation of a State Commission of Inquiry (i.e. independent) into the failings and oversights leading to the massacre.
It doesn’t mention the IDF or shelling at all so the last phrase is the author’s commentary that might be mistakenly attributed to the families committee.
Also, I think it was only Josh Breiner (Haaretz reporter) that mentioned the IDF firing at the scene of the festival (didn’t say whether or not anyone was killed as a result)
I think he’s confusing it with the events at Kibbutz Beeri were Hamas was holding hostages and witnesses said the IDF was shelling them but it’s still unclear if that’s what killed them (might be under censorship). That’s exactly the sort of things a State Commission of Inquiry is supposed to look into.
(Here’s a table explaining the diff types of commissions in Israel: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/32929)

[limpid rose]

I mean, confusing the firing at the Nova scene and shelling in Beeri

[strong forum]

So it's some of the Beeri deaths that are pretty accepted to be due to the IDF? Everything else is still debated? (I'm losing track a little!) This story I was just reading about IDF friendly fire in Gaza has a context paragraph that surprised me in its scope: "Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF believes that beyond the operational investigations of the events, it would not be morally sound to investigate these incidents due to the immense and complex quantity of them that took place in the kibbutzim and southern Israeli communities due to the challenging situations the soldiers were in at the time." https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip

[queen marsh]

Well Gazan families are huge and more like clans, so I don't know if that's the case. To the extent that if you meet someone wjth the family name Kahlout, or Barghouti or Makhamra you can often assume that they're Palestinian. Usually the name denotes that their family/tribe originates from a specific region of Palestine. Makhamra are considered to be descendants of Hejazi Jews, so it doesn't necessarily mean that they all know of each other, but that they share the name and history.

[strong forum]

No, I know they're not closely related. I'm just wondering if the IDF knows (or are just desperate/paranoid enough to try anyone with the same name). Certainly one Israeli I know thought all the the Barghoutis are in cahoots, so...

[keen patio]

The hebrew version is more explicit in mentioning these casualties as soldiers, and not the civilians who were killed that day

[strong forum]

V good to know -- thanks. I wondered if it was just imprecise English.

[glacial spade]

Maybe related or not. Israel bombed Ayyash family (Rafah) multiple times and killed lot of people from them this war.
(Ayyash was someone from the occupied West Bank who was electrical engineer and chief of bombs in Hamas)

Also IDF, AFAIK claimed bombing the Islamic University because hamas engineers got educated there

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/iaf-bombs-islamic-university-of-gaza-a-training-center-for-hamas-engineers/

The Israel Defense Forces says it has bombed the Islamic University of Gaza, “which serves as a central training center for Hamas engineers.”
According to the IDF, the university was “an important center of political and military power” for Hamas and a “training institution for the development and production of weapons.”

[strong forum]

oh geez. I did wonder what the "justification" for the university was. And good to know about Ayyash family. I was afraid of this kind of logic.

[opal fulcrum]

Missing the first part, “an important center of political and military power”, we're here to share disinfo, not create it

[strong forum]

Can you share a link to the Hebrew version? Would like to share it elsewhere. Thanks.

[keen patio]

Of course
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1lgayria

[glacial spade]

I didn't check the full body. Copied that after following the Emanuel's tweet.

[opal fulcrum]

It would be best to verify it beforehand, in a war you work dismantle the entity, that includes taking over and destroying any public places of power that are controlled by said entity, reframing the article in that way creates a false narrative that's used to justify false rage.

[strong forum]

Is it the first sentence in that paragraph that refers to soldiers specifically? בשבעה באוקטובר חללים נפלו מירי על כוחותינו ? (Google Translate is giving me "martyrs" for חללים...which is not very helpful!)

[opal fulcrum]

חללים is used only for soldiers, it's more akin to "hollows"

[keen patio]

Exactly this, חללים is specifically used to signify dead soldiers