UAP_UFO disclosure

[tall raft]

The existence of exotic intelligence life visiting Earth has been confirmed by multiple reliable sources, including 2 former US presidents and Russian Prime Minister.

As OSINT community, we can share valuable information & tools to help accelerate UAP/UFO disclosure.

We need to collect and identify Magnetic/Radio Signatures related to sightings.

[naive lynx]

Uh, I don't think this server is really the right kind of place for stuff like that.

[tall raft]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/08/ufo-house-representatives-hearing-investigation

[verbal verge]

no no, let em cook

[tall raft]

Scientific community is already onboard but good quality, crowdsourced data would be beneficial in order to make proper analyses

[naive lynx]

That's a bold claim.

[tall raft]

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/ufos-and-aerial-phenomena/nasa-ufo-unidentified-aerial-phenomena-panel-hearing-rcna87034

[wooden mountain]

I think we can try to make it work!

People have been sharing these disclosures in #maritime

So maybe going forward we can just post them all here

But yeah we gotta be careful to not turn it into just empty speculation (so more articles from reputable sources, less of the 'personal stories' bit)

So the peeps who are interested in these news can just follow this channel, and #maritime can remain for more uhhhh terrestrial aircraft

[naive lynx]

Let's discuss this then. Is this in relation to the point about the scientific community?

[tall raft]

https://youtu.be/JLZzDhDYMcw

If you have not heard about UAPs over the past 3 years, this interview from David Grusch is a good starting point.

[rocky knot]

#hitsthefollowandmicrowacepopcornbutton

[wooden mountain]

Lots of documentation on this from NASA

https://science.nasa.gov/uap

[tall raft]

Here are thousands of reports from 1989 to august 2022 concatenated from multiple databases, some include images and videos :

https://updb.app

You can filter per keywords, date or location.

It would be nice to see same effort from social medias with the additional challenge to filter noise, pranks and reposts.

[rocky knot]

If you want to discuss it, bring examples.

[thorny nacelle]

I'm gonna buy some popcorn for following the thread. I won't be posting jokes to make room for earnest discussion by those more invested in these claims but there's a really good series of Finnish comedy sketches about UFOs that you gotta check out

(It's called "ufopornoo", it was a recurring sketch in this one show. The voice says something like "Ladies and gentlemen... exceptionally, before the commercial break, we will be showing you...")

[wooden mountain]

@teal furnace shared this video internally a few weeks ago and we both were interested in the bit at the 3 minute mark

https://youtu.be/qYZPfgrmQ4Q

We found it interesting as an example of what all of these have always been, as far as we know: the result of the inability to immediately identify an object in the sky

Also interesting that even these highly trained air crew on a sophisticated airplane with amazing sensors couldn't make out that those are just airplanes in line for landing

Meaning that it makes all the more sense for laypeople to misidentify/be confused by perfectly normal human air activity

[thorny nacelle]

Also just to make it clear, I (and I suspect most here) do not find Grusch credible, he has a couple of others corroborating his story but all were at one specific magazine & NewsNation. Much, much more independent confirmation would be needed.

[wooden mountain]

Totally! Yeha anything coming from individual anecdotes (and especially this individual) are just that, personal anecdotes. So they can't be taken seriously imo

The NASA peeps working on this though, that's legit IMO

[thorny nacelle]

Not to mention there have been plenty of similar cases in the past where an ex-govt employee chases clout by claiming UFOs. The only thing that set this apart was that the magazine found a couple others that reinforced the story.

[wooden mountain]

For sure

I mentioned it another channel but I think that it's imposible for there to have been contact between extraterrestrials and humans, or even for humans to have recovered extraterrestrial aircraft, because that would require an ability to retain secrets that I just don't think we have as a species

Never mind all the possible physycial limitations of interstellar travel

I just don't buy that something that huge could happen and we only hear it piecemeal from a few people now and then

[thorny nacelle]

Definitely impressed me at first because it had three govt employees that agreed, but then I thought longer about it and the lack of evidence or actual independent corroboration (i.e. other media that would find other govt employees to talk about it) and the fact that the story would require far too large of a "conspiracy" to hide...

[wooden mountain]

Remind me of something I read somewhere... I think it's from Thomas Paine

"What's more likely? That a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and raised the dead, or that peopke lied?"

I butchered the quote, it's this apparently: "Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course."

[naive lynx]

The conspiracy is big enough to hide dozens of alien spacecraft and the involvement of multiple nations, but not big enough to make a single person disappear?

[wooden mountain]

Lol yeah exactly

[teal furnace]

Thx, @tall raft, for starting this topic! I find the mainstreaming of UFO UAP research supremely interesting and I love that the US government has 1) acknowledged it's a thing and worth investigating (primarily through a natsec lens), 2) released videos, and 3) allocated resources to better understanding them.

Re: 2), this is a good primer on the genesis of the mainstreaming of UAPs (weirdly featuring Blink 182's guitarist): https://www.vox.com/22463659/ufo-videos-navy-alien-drone

Re: the role of OOSI in this research, a couple of things: 1) I think there is definitely a role for individuals to play in helping document UAPs, though due to technical limitations of the phones we carry in our pockets, the visual evidence will be limited. The director of AARO (from the vid that Giancarlo shared above) says that it's the metadata that is captured by our phones that will be of most use. Here's the full 4-hour conference, starting at that point: https://www.youtube.com/live/bQo08JRY0iM?feature=share&t=2702.

2. Most of the evidence of UAPs is captured by sensor arrays designed for military purposes and thus is out of reach of the public eye unless the government releases it. So, the research starting points when it comes to UAP sightings themselves would seem to be limited, though I have not explored that UPDB site that Assh shared! But the videos that are released can be treated just like any other -- if there's enough visual information in the source material, then geolocate it! I think most of the vids that have been released at this point cannot be geolocated, but the most recent vid featured in the AARO presentation probably can be, and I don't know that anyone has given it a go. Check it out here (this is the most common type of UAP documented by USG): https://www.youtube.com/live/bQo08JRY0iM?feature=share&t=2220

But yah, as interesting and exciting as it is, I think it's obvy super important to remain highly skeptical and not get out in front of the evidence 🙂 The new reported revelations from this whistleblower fella for example are extraordinary... if true. And we have no evidence aside from this fella's word that they are. (And it's worth pointing out that NYT passed on the story and WaPo and Politico were not given enough time to corroborate before the authors chose to publish w/ a different outlet that I personally had never heard of.) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that

[brazen swan]

I dont have the time at the moment, I'll return when I get back home, but a lot of what Grusch specifically claims is quite a bit unfeasible, especially paired together.

Some of the broader points may touch accuracy though

[brazen swan]

And to short form it, my personal leading hypotheses is not that he is lying, but probably stumbled across something and only heard theories from people equally unknowledgable about what they're doing

[shy kraken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDY7t6HihCw

Thought I would share this FWIW - It starts around the 50 min mark. First hand accounts from a number of whistleblowers. Make of it what you may and if inappropriate to post here, feel free to remove.

[shy kraken]

correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't he also provided testimony under oath?

[rocky knot]

Every time the world is in a deep crisis there's UFOs and Maria sightings, brought to you by men claiming to be scientist or men claiming to be gods speakers. I deaply believe we're not alone in this universe but also this is all nonsense.

[brazen swan]

There is what Grusch and the reporters claim, and what his attorneys have claimed, and the snippets of documentation that have been released

Grusch and some of the reporters claim all of this was laid out on the table

this is countered by their lawyers

its also countered by the ICIG complaint itself which is about reprisal against himself

what his lawyers stated, what kean and blumenthal referenced about the documentation, and the little snippets we got from Coulthart all align with none of that other stuff being part of the complaint, just that he faced reprisals

We do not know what he testified to Congress about at all beyond simply what he himself has claimed (and other repeating it with some who have anonymous sources that support it)

[tall raft]

Similar to this one; in 2014; French pilot saw a couple of 'Silver Balls' next to his plane : https://www.cnes-geipan.fr/fr/cas/2014-05-08696?customGetLattitude=1.0726820187506263&customGetLongitude=-57.65625000000003&customGetZoom=0&field_agregation_index_value=&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=13&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=14&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=15&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=16&field_date_d_observation_value[max]=&field_date_d_observation_value[min]=&field_departement_target_id=&field_document_existe_ou_pas_value=1&field_latitude_value[max]=&field_latitude_value[max]=89.99598568824292&field_latitude_value[min]=&field_latitude_value[min]=-87.85062165074167&field_longitude_value[max]=&field_longitude_value[max]=420.46875000000006&field_longitude_value[min]=&field_longitude_value[min]=-535.7812500000001&field_phenomene_target_id=&field_type_de_cas_target_id=124&page=0&select-category-export=nothing&video=on

Here are another few interesting UAP cases from Pilots in the GEIPAN database (Group for Study and Information on Unidentified Aerospace Objects), a section of the french National Centre for Space Studies (CNES) :
https://www.cnes-geipan.fr/en/search/cas?field_agregation_index_value=&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=13&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=14&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=15&field_classification_des_cas_target_id[]=16&field_departement_target_id=&field_latitude_value[min]=-87.85062165074167&field_latitude_value[max]=89.99598568824292&field_longitude_value[min]=-535.7812500000001&field_longitude_value[max]=420.46875000000006&field_date_d_observation_value[min]=&field_date_d_observation_value[max]=&field_type_de_cas_target_id=124&field_phenomene_target_id=&field_document_existe_ou_pas_value=1&video=on&select-category-export=nothing

[brazen swan]

Given them all being caught off guard though, especially the congress folks really into this stuff, including the folks on the committees who hear these things specifically, I'm going to wager whatever he testified to Congress about is also not covering most of his public claims

[tall raft]

Until today, probably because of the stigma around UAPs, there was not much scientific litterature on the subject. It is easy to be labelled as a pseudo-scientist and put at risk your career when you look into these fields. But here is one recent paper from Ukraine where they observed an UAP.
They recorded it for 0.7 seconds in Vinarivka and Kiev with 5 minutes interval.

From the paper:
'These are oval-shaped objects ranging in size from 20 to 100 meters with
speeds from 2 to 30 km/s. '

"Analysis shows that phantoms are absolutely black bodies, that is, they do not radiate and absorb the
radiation incident on them. [...] which would make them undetectable to radar and
the military. Albedo less than 0.01 would seem to make them practically black bodies, not reflecting
electromagnetic radiation"
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2211.17085.pdf

Maybe a coincidence or confirmation bias but when speaking to NASA; Sean Kirkpatrick mentionned the following statement about Anomalous Signature of UAPs:
'I have a thing right there in the light. It should reflect light. If it doesn't reflect light, something is weird'.
https://www.youtube.com/live/bQo08JRY0iM?feature=share&t=3833

[brazen swan]

Good to remember here what they're talking about is not something inherent with UAPs

There's all sorts of coatings and tech that allows exactly that sort of stuff, and, it's not actually a lose all, there are specific sensors for it but applying it as it happens is a shot in the dark and really hopeful

You'd have to task those assets and hope whatever it is gets emplaced in time and gives enough input in time before you lose track of it (these incidents go veeeery quick from what we know)

Then add bureaucracy factors

That's one of the reasons Kirkpatrick wanted expanded authorities under Title 50 so they could task intelligence assets and solicit information from counterintelligence programs directly instead of an even longer bureaucratic process.

Cause right now AARO for example can't really call up NGA and be like "Yeah task your satellite here now we need photos", they'd get shuffled into a deck with a bunch of other things prioritized above it (and it'll take like 90 mins every pass)

[tall raft]

@naive lynx; David Grusch mentionned that over the years, people got killed to keep the secret safe. If you listen to the testimonials in the video shared by @shy kraken, you will also hear some of these stories (blackmailing, life threats etc..).

Also; Ross also mentioned he had heard from trusted sources that more money was invested in the disinformation campain than in the crash retrieval program itself.
With enough money; is not hard to tweak Social Media algorithms to hide sensible content (see Twitter Files), inject fake stories to blurry the lines and turn the whole topic in ridicule through global media coverage and hollywood movies.

[brazen swan]

I love to step in here so

This is something we need to set straight with the story because it is insanely important

Is it DISO being ran around it or a "disinformation campaign"

Because what they described was patently DISO, not a "disinformation campaign"

These two are not the same things, the processes are different, the intent is different, the tools they use is a bit different, the concepts around them are entirely different

If we stick to "disinformation campaign" there is a great 2 factors to consider;

The social media folks and PR folks at DoD have been decried as the ardent disbeliever types by this same in-group before Grusch surfaced. These people already believe its not happening, why would you feed them disinformation to give to the public? That adds an observable that is entirely useless and would have a very high chance at blowing your attempt due to context. So, if we get into the deeper claims about these programs, well, thats all the whistleblowers telling us, not the government, so hard to say its the govt on that one

The whole idea of killing people who speak out etc is also false I'm sorry to say

Democratic nations have learned the lesson very hard that people really dont like working with that exact type of personality

It functionally degrades the exact thing you're trying to do

That's why for example authoritarian intelligence services which do do that type of stuff, have to frequently portray themselves as being from another service or nation than their own, because no one wants to knowingly work with someone whos going to kill you.

It also blows up in the face with Grusch claims specifically because he very openly stated that from his first months at the UAPTF, he was digging into these programs, and identified (key: he claims reprisals against him in the context of them knowing what he was doing), back in 2019, almost an entire 4 years before he went public. Why not kill him before he's a public figure?

[next spire]

I'm a huge skeptic by the way. Just prefacing this with that. I believe in aliens, I think it's silly to think we're the only things in existence, but I think it's highly improbable they've ever visited Earth.

For anyone looking at the UAP videos, I believe it's mandatory viewing to also watch Mick West's breakdown of them. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEjV8DdSbs

Most of the declassified videos I've seen have some very plausible, sane and simple explanation that most science-oriented people will be on board with IMO, albeit a bit disappointed.

And w.r.t David Grusch, he's also talked about him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvhMMhW-JN0

The only thing I can say is, don't let your hopes and dreams of alien life cloud your judgement and reasoning skills 🙃

Basically the Grusch claims are wild and are backed by exactly zero (new) evidence.

Apparently the pope and the government are in tandem to cover up homicidal aliens. No evidence. Please tell me why we're all abandoning our typical thinking caps and giving any creedance to this? Why are these more believable than war-related conspiracies? 😂

[brazen swan]

I've been sticking to this in counters because, being an enjoyer of the dark arts, literally none of this makes sense on this scale

Especially when it's only disrguntled employees who leave, tell us, and somehow don't die

Especially in Grusch case where he identified he'd been digging into it since 2019 and faced reprisals from this big secret government UAP new world order conspiracy, so, like, they knew what he was doing at least 3 years before he went public. If the idea of him not being dead now is because he's a public personality, welllllll

not like they only knew he was going to leak it because he went to the media

With that said I am honestly not a big fan of how Mick has covered a lot of the UAP topic

[next spire]

Why?

[brazen swan]

He has let himself develop a very big ego around it to the point it makes him seem really disingenious and ignore things

For example

He has pretty much reasoned no one who actually made, develops, or uses FLIR systems knows how to use them

He does because of his imitated recreations of FLIR systems

Aka not the real thing

Of course his results dont match up the exact same, he's not using the real thing

Now that doesn't mean he's wrong, but, it is definitely a bit of an error point that is ignored and just glossed over with "I do the research"

Thankfully in the Grusch case it hasn't brushed up against that with him, at least not yet

Although even there I think that's something Mick may really only have happen prominently with the tic tac stuff since he's put so much time into it, it'll cognitively be hard to walk any of it back or adjust his view from his own points

I also got booted off their forums because some idiots were complaining that Ukraine uses Nazis and Russia doesn't, so I provided like 20 photos of Russian neo-nazis, and got in trouble for sourcing it lmfao

[worthy lance]

Personally, I think UAP-UFO disclosure OSINT thread would be a good idea, as long as it's populated with quality, reputable sources and not some low-res screenshot of a silver-balloo in the distance.

[thorny nacelle]

I think we should also have another thread with poor quality blurry UFO pictures, unverified claims on JRE, and funny extraterrestrial content

[tall crow]

#schizo-general

[thorny nacelle]

Oh and it should also contain detailed discussion of Igor Sushko's FSB letters

[rocky knot]

Y'all don't take that serious enough..

[shy kraken]

This was interesting to watch. So effectively what they were looking was a glare which looked like it was rotating. Question still remains, what were they tracking behind the glare?

[next spire]

Nothing, it was the glare that their computer vision systems saw as anomalous.

To the computer vision system it's an object because of how the light hits the sensor making it seem fixed, I don't think they had accounted for glare in that particular way before when designing it.

[tall raft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ7Dw-739VY&ab_channel=GOPOversight

Live open hearing on UAPs at the congress

[past glade]

what's the verdict on that hearing? Anything new? I listened to some and it seemed like a rehashing of stuff that's been said already

[brazen swan]

nothing notable really

Grusch provides some information which was new but, presents some issues

Like uh

Grusch identified that in fact, these programs were reporting to congress, through actual mandated mechanisms (didnt really define if information was left out of this reporting but did identify reporting happens - which pokes a bit of a hole in the whole secret cabal claims and no oversight)

The only other notable thing was he mentioned some of the financing is done through a program called IRAD, which is really interesting because IRAD is perhaps one of the most stringently overseen funding mechanisms that interacts with the private sector. It would be really, really easy to identify irregularities there.

There wasn't really anything "new" beyond those two points, just rephrases or repeats of stuff that's already been said

Or I guess there was one other "new" thing kind of but it seems like there may be a research error in it. Graves claimed his foundations studies found that the most common reports are of cubes with spheres inside. Think there's a research error with that though because, no one else has ever come to that conclusion, ever. Pretty much everyone since the 40s, including some of the oldest organizations which still stand today, and the DoD itself, all recognize that "saucers" are the most commonly identified characteristic shape, with spheres and "cigar" "tic tac" etc type shapes rivaling for 2nd/3rd

[jade moss]

There was one notable new information was not from one of the 3 witness but from Representative Gaetz from his visit at Eglin AFB where after some pushback he got to interview one of the flight crew which ( 1h58 minute mark of the hearing) witnessed above the golf of Mexico a diamond formation of 4 orb shaped crafts which upon approach radar and FLIR system malfunctioned and the crew member had to manually take an image of one of the lenses. Image that Gaetz got to review. Plus Gaetz confirms that there is a radar sequence which he got to observe (not clear is the source of that radar sequence)

[jade moss]

It was indeed mostly rehashing of already said info from these 3 witnesses, tho in a hearing where they are sworn in. I would say the most notable part is the fact that all members asked their questions (apart from Foxx who just played partisan spin about balloons) on the basis of what these 3 witnesses are true rather then attacking the credibility of their experiences and testimony. So in short, this is the start of something being considered as real and serious. Which is hard to believe when the subject is the existence of actual UFO's being of non modern human origin and that part of the US gov and private entities have been in the known for decades...

[rocky knot]

Matt Gaetz??

[jade moss]

indeed, it would seem that he has a higher clearance then Luna and Burchett who where with him on that trip as he was the only one to have access to the pic and flight crew.

[rocky knot]

Oh dear goodness

[tall raft]

There was some confusion on the required clearance to get access to these programs.

That specific 'eligibility criteria' were defined by a group of 'career senior executive officials' from both gov and corporate backgrounds.

These programs are partially funded from public sector (taxpayers) with misappropriation of funds and partially from private sector, corporations (above mention of IRAD).

Just a wild guess but according to this article; 134 billions $ (23% of defense budget) went missing in 2015.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/pentagon-buries-evidence-of-125-billion-in-bureaucratic-waste/2016/12/05/e0668c76-9af6-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html
"The Pentagon imposed secrecy restrictions on the data making up the study, which ensured no one could replicate the findings. A 77-page summary report that had been made public was removed from a Pentagon website."

There is a mention of satellite imagery of crashes location, Grusch reviewed these images and said it couldn't explain them despite his degree in Physics.
When asked about satellite images of crash sites, he replied that he can't discuss it in public sessions.

[thick jetty]

I'm sticking to this until someone produces more than something they saw from someone who heard about it.

[proper tundra]

Here's a pretty good tl;dw of this whole hearing from BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-66307705?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64c14934e3a72e6ac4244367%26What we learned from this hearing%262023-07-26T17%3A15%3A00.854Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:b0f6ae7c-c4f7-4782-9790-2adcdc5aa16d&pinned_post_asset_id=64c14934e3a72e6ac4244367&pinned_post_type=share

[tall raft]

Seems like a daunting task indeed. But speaking of financial incentives, Ross Coultheart, the journalist which first interviewed Grusch mentioned in one of the 'Need to know' episodes that he knew from trusted sources that more than half of the budget allocated to these 'Secret Illegal Programs' were used for disinformation campaigns

[brazen swan]

Yeah no

The R&D for these programs alone, just a fraction of that would outpace Russia's entire national spending on those campaigns, and they spend more than anyone else that we know of

If more than "half" that sort of budget was allocated to "disinformation campaigns" it would be tens of millions of dollars, or even billions, wasted on overuse, or just allocated and not being used

I'd also be really cautious with Coultheart considering he's participated in actual perception management efforts

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/18/ben-roberts-smiths-backers-at-seven-commissioned-secret-report-into-war-allegations-court-hears

[next spire]

This is my exact thought.

Show us evidence. We have so much Sci-Fi literature, media, games, etc. and an army of fans that, while it would certainly change the world, I pretty firmly believe we as a species 1) deserve to know, and 2) can handle knowing.

Right now everyone is going crazy over a few peoples' word.

There is no concrete evidence - not a single shred of it - presented yet. None of the videos that have been released are definitive. It's the same ol' blurry VHS sasquatch in the woods type of nonsense.

[thick jetty]

Exactly. Show us something, anything veryfiable.

[next spire]

Further, anyone who understands the distances in space know that they would have had to create a wormhole in order to reach us. Otherwise, they would have to know how to travel close to the speed of light, which has a multitude of implications about physics. The theory they come from the solar system itself would make sense only if they are somehow able to completely hide themselves from any sort of EMF spectrum artifacts, as we have scanned our solar system to the nth degree at just about every wavelength imaginable.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[thick jetty]

We should be VERY afraid of anything that can visit us.

[next spire]

Also, a wormhole would have produced so much energy that amateurs would have detected it. So the only other explanation is that they've been here for a long, long time.

In which case, how come we haven't seen or found them before? They'd have to be living in the mariana trench or something lol. Even then, not convinced we'd somehow miss them.

And the testimony doesn't even support that theory.

[thick jetty]

It would be so cool if aliens were here, though. I want to believe, dammit. I just can't.

[next spire]

So they came from somewhere, haven't been here longer than we've had technology, have visited recently without anyone but select few air force bases seeing or knowing about it, and not a single non-government person has ever detected nor seen them with the mountain of researchers running private sensors, etc.

[next spire]

Exactly. I really, really want to believe. I really do. Nothing would make me happier to be wrong.

So, PLEASE prove me wrong.

😂

To be clear I firmly believe they exist somewhere. I do not think they've ever been remotely close to Earth.

[thick jetty]

So, PLEASE prove me wrong.

Do it! prove him wrong!

[next spire]

I'd wager they don't even know Earth exists.

[thick jetty]

They're somewhere, or somewhen. Who knows how many ' civilisations' we may have missed already.

[next spire]

Even NASA says they see them, but half these things are just normal aircraft that are picked up by sensors and interpreted incorrectly due to refractions of light etc. that make them appear closer than they are and thus appear to be standing still, etc. But people are ignoring that part.

[jaunty mist]

Or... That we are the first one, or one of them at least, that's one of the ways to solve the Fermi paradox 👀

[thick jetty]

But the Fermi paradox states that many planets have preceded Earth and by a long time.

[proper tundra]

Imagine if they can hide from any wavelength, I don't even know what would be more scary - this or their hypothetical ability to use wormholes.

The most disappointing thing from this hearing for me was that when any really good question was asked - the answer was "oh, I can't talk about this publicly". Why did you start all of this then?

[jaunty mist]

Yes, but not necessarily that they have hosted life

[proper tundra]

One of the most obvious ways to solve Fermi's paradox is the Great Filter

I guess it's not possible to prove this theory though

[jaunty mist]

Great Filter is one of the answers, another one is precisely what I mean with being one of the first

Also, I clarify, Fermi Paradox doesn't care planets preceding Earth, that would be Drake's equation. The Fermi Paradox only says that if there's so many stars with their own planets there, why haven't we seen any sign of alien life

[thick jetty]

The implication being that some should have had time ro reach us by now, otherwise the question is moot.

[next spire]

Not to mention the body language. I'm no expert, but the guy reads as if he's really trying to get congress to believe, and to LARP as some Deep Throat type.

[jade moss]

he doesn't get to decide what he can discuss publicly when this would put him in jail. Thus why he chose the whistleblower path. Reminder he did offer to talk to the representatives in private and has already spent 11+h of closed doors meetings with Gillibrand and co people which deemed him serious enough to further these and future hearings.
So no sorry he didn't take an alien body out of bag but it's the 1st step to more in depth discussions. we'll see if anything comes out of them. But the Schumer amendment seems to itself point that this isn't just a fringe theory by Wackoes.

[wooden mountain]

IMO I dont think he seemed trustworthy and the balance of probability is stacked waaaayyy against him

What's more likely?

1. That a multi-agency and possibly multi-nataional conspiracy the scope of which the world has never known has effectively covered up the existence of intelligent life in the universe capable of interstellar travel against all known laws of physics, or
2. A man is lying

[brazen swan]

I'd raise 3) and imo the most likely is that Grusch actually does believe what he is saying (and thus would not be lying)

There definitely are actors doing other stuff that's exploitative from that angle though

Take Elizondo, Mellon, etc for example. They most literally, per their own statements even, have been conducting influence campaigns

https://twitter.com/jaystratton/status/1684729145626898432

Jay Stratton (@jaystratton)

https://t.co/Iq53nPSaOf

Likes

2536

Retweets

462

Twitter · Jul 28, 2023, 12:55 AM

Unfortunately this statement has not really taken off but regardless of all the UAP claims veracity, this is a problem imo

[red rune]

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-lawfare-podcast-making-sense-of-the-ufo-hearing-with-shane-harris
"It is also problematic to have the testimony of a witness, Dave Grusch, who is offering second-hand claims about the existing of alien technology with naval aviators who are offering a first-hand account of something that they saw - and are not trying to attribute it to anything. Now, they may believe that they had an encounter with an alien life form. They may believe that. They're not saying it, and I think that it's really problematic that these witnesses got put together in the same context before a committee of lawmakers who believe that the government is run by people who are in a conspiracy, and run by a deep state."

[spark swallow]

Same with Travis Taylor then I guess.

Was head a scientist of the uaptf for a bit while also running as lead on a tv show about searching for aliens

It always has the smell of making a sale instead of conducting science

[brazen swan]

He wasn't head of UAPTF

he was a contract scientist

[spark swallow]

Sorry, informal chief scientist

[echo wolf]

Reading this whole topic i do believe that it is very interesting to follow up on signals we cannot explain at all. As they are now officially marked as non identified phenomena after research of a reported phenomena. And even than, most of the time made ridicule. Harshly disqualifying the reporter. It is a very welcomed change that government and NASA is taking this more seriously. The protection coming from this does not longer disqualify persons who see or reports an observation of an abnormality. As this was far to long the case. By scientifically opening this up and from there make observations public, more facts and disinformation will be separated and available to mankind. One could also state that the almost religious disqualifying by disbelievers of reports and observation could come to an end. But non the less them observations are there and in abondance all over our globe. And most of the time the persons are mentally totally disqualified by the demands for real touchable proof. Only pilots or officials are likely taken a bit more serious as a tendency. The same disqualifying tendency occurs even in this thread. As “ i need proof , than i believe “ is a very important basis for that same disqualification. Than again those same persons do believe non yet real proven theories made by Einstein about space and time curves. Why ? On what grounds. But science are pressing to prove them and are taken serious. The same like scientific theories from archaeologists are to be believed how caveman acted as persons. That says to me more and more the tendency that this topic should therefore be more an open minded signaling and reporting topic of scrutinized observations. That needs a very open mind that for unexplained phenomena. And yes. If there is global unrest due to war there are more observations of this kind. But than again. That is obvious as mankind wil look more to the sky in these situations. So there will be more observations to scrutinize.

[naive lynx]

General relativity and its predictions have been experimentally confirmed to be an accurate model of the behaviour of our universe (at large scales) countless times. You are comparing vastly different evidentiary standards here. Your jab against people demanding evidence before accepting a hypothesis (who should be the majority here, I hope, based on the topic of this server) is based on a deeply flawed understanding of the scientific process.

[wooden mountain]

Yes, keeping an open mind is important, but as the old saying goes, "You should keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out"

Keeping an open mind and just believing what someone says on faith are not the same thing

[echo wolf]

Exactly. And before this example of a proven theory was actually proven. Scientist putted their minds to it and did as such. And. I did not tried to offend any who does not “ believe” on contrary. And i most certainly did not jab on them. I stated not to jab on the one that reports. Of which i do think is and has been the case.

[echo wolf]

An open mind is not the same as letting your brain fall out either way. This server works on facts. But also on leads that can be used to find them facts. In this topic there will be more reports and leads to be scrutinized than any other before. But that can only be done well if reports are taken with its value and its merits. It will be hard at some times to filter in quality of them reports and they need to be weighed on as much facts as possible. And that is, i think te main effort to keep this meaningful without an argumentation between believers or non believers, and most certainly without disqualifying either. And that is what i tried to say with getting into this with an open mind. And not to be blind , or deaf, or emotional around it. And i do acknowledge that it is a fuzzy subject on this server for a lot of members. Non the less. Why not do this ?

[red rune]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagan_standard
The burden of proof is on the claimant. Someone who wants to claim that there is a fire burning somewhere should at least show smoke before you worry about spending a lot of calories confirming or debunking the claim.

[brazen swan]

So it turns out our anonamously created 177 page document may not have been so anonymously created

https://public.substack.com/p/alleged-death-threats-against-ufo

Here it's claimed it was compiled by the team writing this article

Which includes none other than Shellenberger himself

This is contradictory to the ghost statement we have that the originating situation cannot actually be referenced, in which Shellenberger supposedly states an anonymous individual gave it to Public.

It's also possibly not even the document actually sent to the GAO and Congress. NewsNation gave an actual page count of the supposed copy they got - 240 pages rivaling our versions 177 pages. The formatting also looks a bit different but hard to tell cause of camera quality

Though the paper copy NewsNation has includes a lot of bolded things that are not present in the 177 page "version" online

also this got uploaded today and is quite funny

https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO06/20230726/116282/HHRG-118-GO06-Bio-GruschD-20230726.pdf

This is Grusch resume prepared by, himself

It notes that the job he claimed to have since 2019, he did not have until 2021

[next spire]

This. Also, was just having a discussion about this regarding LK-99 the other day - you can still be enthusiastic and find something entertaining whilst also being scientific. They're not mutually exclusive either.

I think the vast majority of skeptics would love to be proven wrong, speaking speculatively.

[brazen swan]

Some interesting little characteristic nuggets from Grusch resume among some others (not going over issues specifically in his resume - thats for a diff day)

His first resume billet is misleadingly presented, but, jumping straight into it, he specifically notes his job related to "crafted realistic training scenarios".

In his next billet, he states he held a senior position in a team in a formation conducting "space-based demonstrations, pathfinders, and experiment testing".

More up the page when he notes being C/IID, he mentions coordination of "modeling/simulation to support national space security objectives"

Going up more to his job with Blue Sky, we see, variously stated, he was responsible for contract consulting related too "offensive/defensive cyberspace operations" "electronic warfare concepts" and "advanced new concepts"

This is a very interesting part, as Grusch specifically indicates part of his consulting was done with "OSD/SCO". That is the Office of the Secretary of Defenses Special Capabilities Office. OSD/SCOs specific responsibility is the planning, development, acquisition, and/or test fielding of new asymetric capabilities. He notes his specific job here was as their "IC CAP Control Officer". The IC CAPs specific responsibility would largely relate to collecting foreign intelligence on advanced adversarial R&D programs which we are seeking to acquire tech from

Now, we go to his new job with SOL Foundation. Ignoring SOL Foundation itself, its registering agent is Ignite Now, a defense contracting company which, specifically, offers simulation and modeling training and technical capabilities to national space programs.

He also has a bullet point mentioning working for the "318th Cyber Operations Group, Detachment 3". Well, there is no Detachment 3, but beyond that, 318th is very interesting, as it's one of the Air Forces bodies for the actual conduct of Information Operations.

I find the last part interesting as it's a characteristic we also see with Elizondo and Mellon

Outside of the current cycle, individuals with that characteristic have existed priorly - in all known cases that can be corroborated, they were members of a rough network of individuals who, as far as we know, out of their own interest, proceeded to spend multiple decades misinforming and directing topics around the UFO scene (MJ-12, Project Serpo, etc)

Doty being an odd one out in that he specifically did that while working for the Air Force too, but, unknown whether any given action he conducted was personal or ordered (wisely covering him that part is really debatable - no sourcing going either way outside his own statements).

[rocky knot]

https://twitter.com/MikeFazedMuch/status/1687653959798837248?t=UR_ydWIJ428IiWl7FAzucw&s=19

Mike FM (@MikeFazedMuch)

@michaelshermer Cmdr. Fravor, the pilot that supposedly saw the tic tac, has admitted to hoaxing UFO sightings for laughs.

From Joe Rogan episode 1361 at min 49:

▶ Play video

Twitter · Aug 5, 2023, 2:37 AM

[brazen swan]

Stuff like that makes you wonder how many legitimately reported sightings were actually just pilots playing pranks

[rocky knot]

UFanOn is a rising. Few more weeks and the next online cult is born

[heady knot]

Anything new?

[brazen swan]

More degradation of the environment around the subject unfortunately

The only two "new" things are a fake contradictory story Coulthart presented about a patch, that, has some very shady stuff going on around it. And the MH370 bs going on

[spark swallow]

mh370 bs?

[brazen swan]

Yes

Back in 2014 someone released a video of a plane getting taken by "orbs"

[spark swallow]

you mena the malaysian airliner

[brazen swan]

It's been resurfaced multiple times claimed to be a video of MH370 getting taken by UFOs

[spark swallow]

sigh

[brazen swan]

It's going through another cycle but this time its got extra power behind it

The sad part is all these communities have discredited it before

The sole difference now is all the Grusch supporters have come out of the fields and are using that as an authority based reason to lend credence to the video "Look at all the hearings, Grusch told us X Y Z, it's clearly real!"

[wooden mountain]

its sortta mind blowing that in 2023 people are still looking at videos and going "Look! That's too complex to be CGI! So it has to be real!

[brazen swan]

The part I find so ironic with this is all these people talking about 80 year deception programs

If you talk about how deception actually works, the entire story breaks and they just keep contradictorily adding to it

[spark swallow]

yeah, saw a vid about the unity engine now.

[brazen swan]

Then they'll bring up something about disinformation but be unable to recognize when they've fallen for it themselves, like when everyone continues stories originatd by Doty while he was, self admittedly, actively disinforming the community, but erase Doty from the information he gave then proceed as if its legit

[spark swallow]

it's mind boggling how far we've come

[brazen swan]

Like this MH370 stuff is looking pretty similar to a campaign

The original video was ghost dumped years ago with little information, it's consistently been dripped into the communities originated by no-name accounts that attempt to push it into the sort of discourse we're seeing now

[spark swallow]

... that video is just weird

[brazen swan]

Now that we see it, they bulk delete a bunch of their videos and accounts, and we see a new plethora of brand new accounts showing up to push the video and theories about it, some with even more escalating beliefs

It's really sad watching because it's pretty evident some of these people are going far off the deep end, it's literally breaking their psyche

They believe world governments are controlled by secret cabals, that they have agreements with aliens to harm humans etc

It's all playing insane amounts of fear on these people, directed towards governments, in a way that's pushing them towards radicalized beliefs

[spark swallow]

yeah

[brazen swan]

Like you have all the people now recommending Congress storm through the DoD and start firing and arresting a bunch of generals for these "cover ups" that the narrative contradictorily both reasons are all involved, thus making the secret cabal irrelevant, but the actual sources state most of them just dont care/are too religious/etc to even touch the topic

And in re the accounts part, here is a few twitter accounts in a micro network

Creation dates are mixed but they all cross reference each other on the same topics despite them all being super small accounts with less than 1k followers/following

Given how large the UAP topic is, that's not very likely unless they know each other personally or from an external community (or another reason)

Especially since some don't follow each other but will repost each other near-term

the BigfootTreehouse one is interesting given of a lot of people talking about it right now, they're one of very few that's actually posted it before (the january post reference), sourced from a Tiktok https://twitter.com/BigfootTreehous/status/1615384820850229259

Bigfoot’s Treehouse (@BigfootTreehous)

Flight MH370, disappeared March 8th, 2014. Thermal FLR. Supposed drone footage anonymously released in 2015. #ufo #UFOs #uap #uaptwitter #alien #MH370 @rosscoulthart @g_knapp @JeremyCorbell @jamescfox

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jan 17, 2023, 4:25 PM

Now of course it has that music but whatever it's TikTok, this is the account;
https://www.tiktok.com/@pirateintraining

Which is of course filled with a touch of MAGA content and anti-vaccine stuff

This guy is our earliest known surfacer with the current bout of the narrative

[heady knot]

I'm just so confused as to why this guy is so credible 😂

Because that sounds a tad unfounded to me.

[spark swallow]

it does fit the "trust me bro" narrative

but apparently there's been loads of ufo sightings in ww2 europe

but these two things seem unrelated :)

[heady knot]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter

[brazen swan]

solely because he is former government

people really don't like when I bring it up but the reality is the only reason Grusch is believed is because of a multitude of biases

if this was even 8 years ago people would be calling him a disinformant

even lue got that shit and he didn't go into the whole secret governments, alien NWO cabals etc stuff

its all being used as self-confirming facets

ie Tom DeLonge mentioning in 2019 that within the next few years we will see hearings on UAP. We see these hearings throughout 2019, 2020, and 2021. Of course, Tom DeLonge was accurately predicting the UAP hearing last month, not any of the others, so he knew about the secret pla- (this is where it gets funky because to logically follow the story you have to recognize your favored sources misled you)

[heady knot]

The self confirming aspect is quite hilarious.

[brazen swan]

I mean hell now we even factually know Grusch misleadingly presented his career

Dude even inaccurately represented his own resume in his resume

For example, this is an inaccurate listing

He didn't do his 14N training (which you go to after your basic training, you don't go to your job after basic, you go to school for your job) until 2010, but lists himself as an "Officer in Charge" of an entire group in 2009

He could not have had that job without completing that 2010 training first

And while not impossible I have a bit of a hard time believing they assigned a guy fresh out of basic to lead portions of the missile warning system

This entire part is funny because for all the talk of "disinformation" and yadda yadda, Grusch spent the last half of his career primarily working IRCs 🤣

Now this is the fun stuff with his resume. Notice how a lot of it deals with training, modeling, and simulating? Well, the new thing, SOL Foundation, founded by Gary Nolan and Christopher Mellon, that Grusch is the COO of, has an interesting registering agent. That would be Ignite Fueling Innovation, a defense contracting company, that specifically offers advanced modeling and simulation services for advanced space concepts.

That's a gigantic glaring conflict of interest I have not seen anyone mention yet. Especially with them all decrying defense contractors as having some mega-hold on the space and etc, coincidentally, are also involved with the opposition contracting companies vying for those contracts.

[heady knot]

How on earth did he get the hearing!?

[nimble lintel]

Hey so, I can provide a summary of what's been happening with the MH370 poofed by UFOs videos, as I've been following that on reddit, 4chan, and metabunk for the past couple of weeks. I started looking into the UFO community after the UAP hearing last month, and this has been a fun rabbit hole to go down. These are the drone FLIR and satellite videos of the supposed event, from May 2014 and June 2014 respectively

This started out with a redditor reposting I believe the FLIR video on r/UFOs a couple of weeks ago. Like the previous times one of those videos got reposted (the last time being 7 months ago), the comments in that thread dismissed the video as being obviously fake because whatever is going on in it obviously looks ridiculous. A lot of comments were pointing out that the clouds weren't moving in the associated satellite video as an indication that the videos were CGI

The next day, however, there were a couple of threads that took a closer look at the satellite video. One pointed out that the clouds in there actually moved in a way that was consistent with the wind speed at the time and the altitude, and another pointed out that the flash at the end illuminated the clouds as if they were 3D. It started to look like both the FLIR and satellite videos had to be fully rendered from 3D, which would've been a bit tricky to do for realistic looking clouds back in 2014.

Those threads kicked off a lot more analyses with people trying to debunk the videos based on the visuals. Instead, however, more small and some tricky to fake details were found. For example, the stereo satellite video actually seems to have depth data, the coordinates at the bottom of the video update with the panning of the screen by the cursor, the way the cursor looks and moves is consistent with what would be expected with a remote viewing software, the trails coming from the orbs would've been difficult to generate with a particle simulator at the time, orbs show warping from heat when they pass behind the jet wash...

Assuming these are fake, the consensus seems to be that whoever created these videos had a lot of strangely specific knowledge about satellite and drone imaging, and was a professional VFX artist that had spent a lot of time adding meticulous details. So far it looks like these would be by far the best hoax UFO videos that have existed, which is really neat in itself.

And there ya have it

[brazen swan]

A mix of lobbying, public attention, legitimate worries from some congress members (in re oversight), a few congress folks using it as part of their conspiracized anti Biden crusade

[heady knot]

@nimble lintel thanks a lot for this 😄 really interesting summary.

[jade moss]

Not too familiar with the registering agent function in the US, so how relevant is it that they are registered through Ignite Fueling Innovation rather then an other agent company ? does it mean they depend from them in a legal way ? or is it akin to having lawyers / account company take care of your legal headaches ?

[brazen swan]

Depends a bit on the state, but easiest TLDR is they're middlemen for legal stuff between the state and the company

There are actual dedicated companies for this

In this specific case there is likely a reason beyond them being a random find through looking for corps that can act as RAs

[sly smelt]

Some stuff about Grusch that a now member of the space force (formerly of the airforce) said on an other server

[naive lynx]

Hi, as you know we heavily discourage unsourced posts here. So it would be helpful if you could clarify the origins of the messages and provide evidence that the poster is who they claim to be. While the description is definitely plausible, we try not to rely on hearsay and gossip.

(Of course, as always, rule 6 applies here.)

[sly smelt]

Sorry can't really do that,
I honestly could not violate rule 6 regarding this person even if I wanted as I don't know that much about them.

But I do feel that I can vouch for the person being in the space force now and former in the US AF from interacting with the person during a few years.

but I don't expect my word to count for much so I would suggest considering the above image as hearsay and suggested info for someone that have named and unnamed sources in the USAF to follow up on and confirm

(or any former USAF member that happens to be here)

If that is not enough than apologice for making the post and I can remove the posts or you can do it if I am not awake (its almost midnight here)

The "you don't get out at 14 years if you have a good career" sounds like both the easiest thing to follow up on and the most significant blind spot journalists might have in regard to the US military

[sly smelt]

Has anyone interviewed anyone that worked with or knows Grouch from the AF?

Sounds like something that might be worth the effort?

[shell path]

This is true and not true, I wouldn't harp on it too much without more info. I know a lot of people who got out of very career-heavy jobs like that because they had kids and decided they wanted to actually take care of their kids, or they were trying to save a marriage they valued more than their work, etc.
It's not exactly like "OSINT" here where you can shut off the laptop and go watch a movie or hang with family/friends. A lot of those guys, especially some of the things Grusch was working on at least, you're leaving for work before your family gets up, and you're getting back after everyone is asleep. The days you maybe get off (and don't get called in), you're overstressed and barely have any sleep, and then you start to see stuff like what was presented in that article by Ken.
A lot of the times you see people pull full-career cards like that, it's from people who either are not facing these issues, or are ignoring them themselves. You have a certain type sometimes that is very service driven, these folks don't tend to degrade others for not being the same.

[sly smelt]

That applies to majors and gs-15 too?

[shell path]

Being the equivalent title as a major doesn't mean a whole lot since the GS system itself works entirely different, but yes it equally does

https://www.spreaker.com/user/15432959/spies-like-us-episode-4-audio

Marc Polymeropulous is another, he was SES, he talks a lot about the subject in general (outside of his own personal experiences) in a bunch of podcasts and articles etc

Here's a reference to an old study done at NSA talking about cyber operators, though more from stress specific angle than overall MH; https://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-research-looks-at-how-stress-impacts-cyber-security-operations/

[sly smelt]

High suicide rate is basically a constant over all militaries and most ranks.

I can't speak of any specifics regarding the US military given that I am not even on that continent.
I just forwarded some info I had learned from what I consider a reliable source.
I assume J_K dident find it worthless Info given that it was not removed last night

[shell path]

We've only just seen these fields start to get attention with various mental health related topics, and it in public attention it's really just expanded to people who support combat rather than just in combat & trauma related to it. Still a long way to go before the other functions get recognized, because they can come with their own sets of issues, same as highly competitive corporate work environments etc can.

[shell path]

Yeah it's just one of those things we need to be really careful about without added information, or we could end up disingeniously speaking about the root issues, some of which we know impacted Grusch at some point.

[sly smelt]

We know that?

[shell path]

We don't know if he was diagnosed with PTSD, but there was a period (what Kens article covers) where he was in a very bad state in terms of his mental health

[sly smelt]

Could you link to Ken's article?

[shell path]

https://theintercept.com/2023/08/09/ufo-david-grusch-clearance/

[naive lynx]

Please don't presume any intent from my actions or non-actions. I did not delete your post, because it did not overly break any rules. That does not mean I endorse it and I object to you implying that.

[sly smelt]

Sorry if I imply that you did.
I thought you would have removed it and label it as "hearsay, not worth discussing" during last night if you thought it was that.

[sly smelt]

Thanks

[livid flax]

@sly smelt For the record, Klippenstein received blowback because he was digging up the guy's mental health crisis rather than addressing his claims.

Furthermore, having substance abuse issues as a result of PTSD/etc isn't uncommon

I'm trying to link some of the Twitter backlash, but it's hard because I deleted my account there

[sly smelt]

I don't think its unresonable to investigate the reliablility of a person making that kind of extreame claims and basically giving the proof of "trust me bro"

[livid flax]

Oh it isn't unreasonable at all to do that.
But psychiatric records for receiving help for substance abuse isn't the way to counter.

Don't get me wrong: Grusch is full of crap

[jaunty mist]

Not uncommon, it's precisely extremely common, I've seen figures of 80% of alcoholism in people with posttraumatic stress. Substance abuse is a very common maladaptive coping mechanism from flashbacks

[thorny nacelle]

I still can't believe we have a UFO discussion

[shell path]

Yeah stuff like that though is important to pair with other info re why comments like the careerist one aren't really wise

There's a multitude of reasons that he may have disconnected from service without bad standing in any regard, jumping to conclusions is never really wise anyways.

[jade moss]

I would say that Klippenstein got a larger blowback because his article focused purely on the PTSD aspect of Grush. There was little to nothing about the context of Gruschs testimony, of his professional background not of his whistleblower complaint. It would be one thing if there was a whole article about a subject and in one part of it you talk about their struggle with PTSD or such other problems in order to give context on where they are coming from. But here it was just that, the PTSD and thus read as just a pure hit job. And frankly when I stumble upon such blantant ones I do tend to think "what is this trying to hide". There is a real chance it's about the misappropriation of funds through abuse of the SAPs programs as AOC noted during Gruschs testimony and perhaps that will lead to UFOs ? or more down to earth misdeeds

[shell path]

I think the Klippenstein thing is much less about having stuff to hide and more just Klippensteins online personality (maybe in person too). He has quite the history of... not wiser stuff like that

[tall raft]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/aliens-in-mexico-congress-ufo-b2410477.html

These might be the tangible proofs we were looking for.

[wooden mountain]

extraordinary claim requires (in this case, super super super extraordinary) evidence, and I'm not seeing it

IMO it's absurd to assume we'd share any % of our DNA with an alien species, nevermind the ~70% that the article explains. Also sortta absurd to think that an alien species that emerged and evolved outside of our solar system also has anything that we'd recognize as DNA

It's infinitely more likekly that this is a hoax

[naive lynx]

Mr Maussan told attendees the specimens had been studied by scientists at the Autonomous National University of Mexico (UNAM) who were able to draw DNA evidence using radiocarbon dating.
That's not how any of this works

This looks like some kind of casting (for example plaster) with a ton of sand added to hide the imperfections.

[thorny nacelle]

Mr Maussan has previously been associated with claims of “alien” discoveries that have later been debunked, including five mummies found in Peru in 2017 that were later shown to be human children

Yeah so the person that brought these on display has done this exact hoax previously

[spark swallow]

DNA evidence using radiocarbon dating. whaa??

[thick jetty]

Was any of it quantum, by any chance?

[tall raft]

In the conference, they mentioned that the shared DNA comes from human contamination while moving and extracting the body

[naive lynx]

Uh, that's also not how that works.

[tall raft]

Sure thing, but they found different periods and they all have the same physical characteristics (3 fingers, elongated heads, metallic implants with Osium components etc..)

I suggest you listen to the last part of the hearing to get the full picture as this article is only focusing on a small subset of information

[naive lynx]

How does that invalidate the history of hoaxes?

[wooden mountain]

I'm sorry but there whole premise for this is absolutely bonkers

[tall raft]

https://www.youtube.com/live/-4xO8MW_thY?si=lmS1D-9FENPDCS6v

The committee which described these bodies as hoaxes didn’t study them, they just looked at the pictures. Tell me if you think otherwise but here, you have multiple universities and researchers looking at the bodies, analysing samples and applying scientific method.

At least give it a look and give me informed and constructive feedbacks once you have all informations, I would be happy to discuss

[spark swallow]

if they did, where is the documentation of these researches?

[naive lynx]

You can't just dump a 4 hour video here and go "look for yourselves before you discuss". Give us some plausible information, ideally from reputable researchers.

We are all very busy people and this is a lot to ask.

[shell path]

So, this is something I keep seeing brought up, and it's a bit unfortunate.

You're right about the livescience article, they did not actually study this

What is being left out though is there has actually been many other studies, except, they're not in the english net space. They were primarily conducted by Peruvian researchers and scientists before 2020.

http://descreidos.utero.pe/2019/02/15/cc-y-las-momias-de-nasca-cuando-la-pseudociencia-es-peor-que-una-pelicula-de-terror/

[spark swallow]

Good read

[rocky knot]

Cool, they also have a bigfoot video, maybe I will find @short barn damn car there

[rocky knot]

QAlien

[shell path]

Also the major point with this keeps resting on the sole point of these genetic differences. It does not take being a geneticist to look at the field of genetics and understand that, that exact result, has dozens of higher possibilities than it actually being something ET, and is a reason why those people put so much effort into assessing their results.

Things degrade over time, contamination can happen, analysis can be conducted improperly as can the tools used for them, certain things may not be retained in the databases being cross checked for, etc

All of these other reasons have just been entirely skipped over without any reasoning to how it's not any of these. The only one touched on is contamination, which was reasoned very badly. There's no real way to gauge which way that contamination happened unless you had some very rigid handling controls, which the way they claimed the contamination happened showcased they had very little/no handling controls that'd enable you to gauge that remotely accurately.

[short barn]

There is no such thing as "SnapFasterly" It's just a bunch opossums inside a costume, behind a keyboard or steering wheel.

[jade moss]

Don't really need to tbh, the guy presenting them has a long history of fakes. Recent ones being the same type of "alien mummy" (so he just rehashed his scam a bit differently) and No they did not follow basic scientific procedures to show they were serious in their study of it. Don't trust my opinion ? well perhaps consider someone who has a reputable one in both the Scientific and as well the UFO world : https://x.com/GarryPNolan/status/1701807375324520566?s=20

Garry P. Nolan (@GarryPNolan)

@JacobMyth @fighto @undersc0red @tinyklaus Sam way it happened with the Starchild skull I showed to be human, and the conclusions it was alien were withdrawn. Contamination from any of a number of organisms (fly maggots, bacteria, fungus) that have never been sequenced), degraded DNA, etc., etc. There are SO MANY WAYS…

Twitter · Sep 13, 2023, 3:57 AM

[shell path]

Nice to see Nolan has commented on the issues with the narrative

That'll present it from a non-adversarial stance to a lot of the folks taking it without more assessment

Definitely did not expect to see any of those guys talk about it in that context either

[jade moss]

I mean in the UFO disclosure circles they are just ashamed on the whole Mexican pony show that happened there. Granted the Ufology community is a bit of a clown show for most of it, but there is a good section of people in there who are more level headed and consider Grusch's accusations as well as the Airforce pilots testimonies as serious and something that needs to be delved into in a more rigorous way.

[shell path]

Yeah, the issue I've noticed though is there's generally no if little attempt by the different audiences to speak with each other, instead of too each other

All sides tend to listen to respond, and don't respond in a way packaged to resonate with the other party.

Aside from the larger "debunking" debate, this subject is a micro-example of doing it incorrectly. Generally the "debunking" and countering in general tends to either be one or both;
A) solely be conducted within the originating or related in-groups
B) not presented to out-groups in a way to resonate with them. Generally, this is presented adversarially, not always though.

It's also why a lot of the countering and "debunking" only tends to be effective within the in-group (this exists as a wider thing but just speaking in-subject here), kind of amplified in this context comparative to other situations. Ie people part of r/ufos countering within the community, rather than some new poster sharing something from say Metabunk. Even if the information is 1-1 the same.

[jade moss]

indeed, this is why I was curious to see how Bellingcat methodologies would fare on such a subject which if you forget the "Alien" part would correspond to a lot of what is already does here with publicly available information and cross-referencing between different sources. I mean this subject mixes, military intel, hardware, witness testimonies and when lucky videos/pictures and to top this off a lot of active disinformation efforts on both sides.

I mean, billionaires are showing interest on the topic and putting millions behind it. Is their angle Aliens ? perhaps but probably not so there are certainly some power plays happening behind the scenes for contracts in one form or the other. And heck if there are recovered UFOs ? it could be as simple as Microsoft, Google and Thiel (new guard of tech) trying to get a piece of the pie the Old guard has been keeping to itself for 70 years. Seems worthy to delve into a bit considering how murky the military and its relation with its contractors is no ?

[shell path]

It fares pretty well, I approach it with legitimate methodologies

That's my interest in it all anyways, the communicative and information aspect

Quite interesting to see how certain narratives develop and spread within the space

The claims about government related IO in the space are hands down my favorite. There's two distinct sets of narratives that always arise from that frame.

The first, is one that absolutely has no knowledge of what IO or any of its tools are and how they're used, and, just inaccurately represents them.

The second tends to come from misinformation in itself, rooted a bit in the above. The current Eglin AFB claims are a great example of that.

All of the claims about IO being ran against UFO communities out of Eglin has 3 foundational points;

1. A study conducted at Eglin about Social Media Manipulation - Discourse leaves out this was done by a scientific research team at an R&D center. This had nothing to do with actual operational use.

2. The Air Force has an IO wing housed at the AFB - Lot of people misunderstand what happens here. Air Force IO, in fact, the very wing at that base, literally flies planes. They fly planes that drop leaflets and hijack broadcasting towers to replace messaging with our own content, or run some fancy EW pods to degrade whatever in the area. I have yet to see anyone mass-dropping leaflets over our cities, so.. yeah. Those people are not conducting internet-enabled influence campaigns.

3. A bunch of IPs on Reddit linking back to Eglin. - This is largely because of a routing protocol, not much more than that.

[short barn]

By "IO", do you mean Information Operations?

[shell path]

Yeah my apologies

[tall raft]

Actually there are also good counter arguments in this video-series pointing at the bodies being a reconstruction from different animal parts: https://youtu.be/tzCERd86FUU?si=c5gB-vvHRnAHNj1p

They don’t refute all arguments in the original presentation but
I should have taken a step back before sharing to the group

[tall crow]

Wasn't this debunked as being the back half of a llama skull?

[rocky knot]

No, let us have fun sometimes. It's hard enough what we're doing normally.

[spark swallow]

no harm in sharing, but bring sources if you mention research :)

[shell path]

What ya looking for sources on

[spark swallow]

Me nothing in particular

[sly smelt]

its not even the weirdest skulls found in that general part of the world

[naive lynx]

Hey, no skull shaming here.

[sour harness]

The CBP released several videos alongside a very interesting 300 page document including the records of UAP https://www.cbp.gov/document/foia-record/unidentified-aerial-phenomenon

[spark swallow]

that's some odd language for a formal report "This paper dives down the rabbit hole with Defense Department insiders, scientists and declassified material to find answers to a host of questions"

[spark swallow]

the clips are very nice though

[shell path]

That first document isn't from CBP, it's from a think tank

That bit really interests me though, really curious why this random think tank was contracting on this for CBP

Also glorious that the little think tank report is basically grasped by the theorism

Love how they reference "Sokolov" and the Soviet programs

It'll always be ironic how none of the other 100s of individuals we know participated in those programs in the Soviet Union ever reference him, yet he remains the most referenced in connection with Soviet programs

[tall raft]

We have the date but no exact location for all these seeings right? Wouldn’t it be possible to retrieve the lat/long coordinates from the videos?

[desert grotto]

Really great geolocation here: https://twitter.com/JakeGodin/status/1709589077463294074

Jake Godin (@JakeGodin)

Fun geolocation challenge: @NathanPatin was interested in geolocating one of the UAP/UFO orb videos released by NASA: https://t.co/WzUVAXkMwm

@bellingcat researcher Klement Anders managed to find it in Syria east of Deir el-Zour at 35.369189  40.332815: https://t.co/amZV0TZaNU

Twitter · Oct 4, 2023, 3:19 PM

[rich flame]

Need a Samir-themed award for these kinds of "in the middle of the Syrian desert" type geolocations

Anders always really impresses with their ability to track down spots

[spark swallow]

Damn, that is impressive

[teal furnace]

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/24/isnt-that-a-balloon-deflating-a-dod-ufo-video/

[jade moss]

Nice article, and it's been well received by the more level headed UFO twitter accounts from what I've seen, Oh ! even Christopher Mellon has commented on it, nice !

[teal furnace]

reading the mentions has been a delight 👽

[shell path]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/795110463016796200/1166736024752357386/Screenshot_20231025-155203_Reddit.png?ex=654b9299&is=65391d99&hm=6572413df6c7ca0232a99a224caf0d7fe6ceffb00e16aa50fe846426028f177a&

@teal furnace You brought Bellingcat to the big leagues

Welcome to the secret cabal, brother

[sly smelt]

From what I have seen most of those are just pilots not really having any idea what the real limits are of the instrumentation they are and how it behave at the limits of those abilites.
so insetad of being really impressed of the camera being able to track a bird at 30 000ft away they think it is an ufo

could the thing above the green line (that I added be the baloons shaddow?

[teal furnace]

we've been in the big leagues! depending on who you ask we're also cutouts for the intel agencies of Ukraine, Russia, and Israel, too! 🫠

[shell path]

Hey there it's a whole new level to be invited into the NWO-esque cabal

[shell path]

In a bit of fun today, we have Ashton Forbes, the hard charger trying to bring us the "truth" about MH370

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/health/story/2020-06-02/palomar-health-worker-sues-county-over-masks-orders

Little covered is his anti-mask fight against California a few years back

If anyone has the time later this week this gentlemen will be an interesting dig, there's a lot of inauthentic account activity promoting his content or things related to his content which he in turn near immediately aligns with and extracts benefit from.

[woeful birch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDaYcCbtrs

[willow hollow]

sorry, did I miss something? I thought the only thing that has been confirmed is the lack of evidence for extraterrestrial ufo's was not predicated by the US government's lack of attention on the matter. If anything, this year further weakened the UFOlogists position. If there's anything this whole ordeal achieved is more disinformation. If you want to see what exactly the use of a UFO sightings map is, I HIGHLY recommend this lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf5OrthVRPA

why is this discussion this long anyways?

[heady knot]

I think he was referring to that it's hard to do open source research on this sorta stuff.

[willow hollow]

I mean there's really a lot of material out in the open. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfhAC2YiYHs like this guy did using 7th grade trigonometry to determine the ground speed and the size of an actual duck using leaked material made be one of the US military's most advanced tracking systems of the time. It's a sight to behold. Makes me want to bust out a slide rule.

[naive lynx]

Oh wow, I wrote that before I even was a mod. But the point I wanted to make back then is that this is not really the place for approaching the problem with a predetermined conclusion. Meaning that "These sightings are aliens and I just need to find the right pieces to prove it!", is not really a great approach.

[willow hollow]

hahah OK sorry, it's late (early) and I was looking for something entirely different and got lost here 🙂 I didn't mean to reply to your comment actually but to the other guy's

[naive lynx]

Also, yikes to Thunderf00t

[willow hollow]

because this is ACTUALLY not the right place to discuss this.

haha what about thunderf00t? He's a bit much, but I love watching him use back of the napkin math to tear Elon Musk a new one repeatedly for hours on end

I bought the tellspec back in the day... and almost would've bought the telescope idea

[naive lynx]

He is (or used to be) incredibly obsessed with his weird anti-feminist ideas.

He then moved a lot closer to the alt-right sphere, but they seem to have diverged again over Brexit and COVID.

[willow hollow]

I do think he could be a bit less condescending. Yeah he definitely used to be... as I said... I love his back of the napkin math

[willow hollow]

yeah he was pretty close with both of those. At least not bad for a chemistry college professor. Nobel laureates have made worse predictions haha

I gotta go back write on my ENF tool

[jade moss]

the Schumer/Rounds amendment to the NDAA has seen a bit of an uptick in the UAP conversations these last days as there seems to be talk that Mike Turner and other influential Republicans are trying to kill the bipartisan amendment during the reconciliation phase. What is curious about this amendment is that there has been quite a care in the extent language and definitions used in it, that's quite a lot of work (64 pages) put in for a "nothing burger". Just forget that the subject is about "little green men" such a legal document passing would make the news that something serious is being considered no ?

link to the amendment (1st paragraph) : https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-rounds-introduce-new-legislation-to-declassify-government-records-related-to-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-and-ufos_modeled-after-jfk-assassination-records-collection-act--as-an-amendment-to-ndaa

[shell path]

Not necessarily towards your last point

The bill itself here was likely written by Mellon and co again though can't say 100%, they've talked up being part of its creation

Politicians supporting bills as such does not necessarily indicate their beliefs surrounding it

Look at Schumer for example, a bunch of people take his quote as meaning he believes we have crashed UFOs and whatever, yet, his statement was explicitly that the public has the right to know such information - which is consistent across his entire political career as a stance held towards most matters regarding information

This is much less an indicator of his belief than him linearly participating in it from the frame he has interacted with other bills relating to information of public interest

Also look at Burchett and Luna for a bit of a different example. Before they were talking up UFOs, they were also participants in Shellenberger and cos "censorship" campaign, and now they've come into talking about UFOs, used Shellenberger to deceptively surface materials into congressional record, and target the same agencies and political opponents as being part of the "secret cabal" blocking bills and trying to control (?). Their interaction appears much less organic and not entirely reflective of good willed belief leading their efforts.

[sly smelt]

TF is an part time asshole that love to spend more then half his videos jacking himself off.
But all that said he is not an idiot by any stretch of the imagination and when it comes to hard science he knows what he is talking to

[sly smelt]

He was part of the shitlords with Sargon etc, but that was a decade ago and he seems to have calmed down or at least learned to shut up about both feminism and far right stuff(iirc, he was not really into far right stuff to start with and that was part of why he split off from the other group)

[willow hollow]

I mean... I'm a feminist myself and I also have gotten the wrong end of the stick from militant feminists. I don't remember what TF said, and honestly, it's just best to shut the fuck up and try to listen to the other person when you're faced with an angry minority activist. Because you can only loose, and you help noone if you fight. The thing is, it's not about you in that situation so just stfu. He doesn't understand that and he doesn't shut up. Sometimes repeating himself 30 minutes on end for the third video in a row. But hey, he does do a good job of breaking things down, I really admire him for that. Yeah, he's somewhat socially inept, so am I to a lesser degree.

[sly smelt]

True.

I don't think I have ever seen him go against equality between genders and ethnicity/races as a concept.
He just seems to have a hangup against the loud fringe feminists that spout all kinds of insane shit.

Yeah socially inept is a good way to describe him

[willow hollow]

Let me put it this way. Here you see (no judgement) one of the leaders of group of online vigilantes who founded 8chan, a group that today are commonly known as self-described 'incels' who made life worse for a number of women online. (Still from researcher Arne Vogelsang's lecture at 36C3 in 2019 about gamification in information warfare by the far right....)

I don't know what that means, but... yeah...

https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10639-let_s_play_infokrieg#t=1153

[jade moss]

Hum don't know about that take, putting your name behind something which in the current divisive political era the US is in can easily be played as "Schumer is behind a Green little men bill, he's lost it worse then Biden Lawl" seems like a very risky use of his political points while Democrats are trying to get a lot of other important stuff done. And considering he's part of the gang of 8 he would be in a better position then others to know if there is a there there and thus any worth taking that risk. So again if this wasn't about "Aliens" this amendment would have a lot more people Spidey sense perked up

[shell path]

You've made multiple assumptions in your post

How these subjects are actually spoken about in those circles vs here in the public is very different

[willow hollow]

yeah I should just leave, I always forget that this is the corner of the Bellingcat Discord where we talk about UFO "disclosures"

[shell path]

Schumer putting his name to the bill is no more damaging than the others who've done the same with similar characteristics and their statements of support relate to things like public interest from overclassification and legitimate national security threats

We can also get really analytical if you want and break down degrees of intent with his wording and all that

[jade moss]

I'm less interested on what Schumer states in public as that's politics, then what is said in the amendment he has his name on as actions are louder then words.
In it they define : "12) NON-HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.—The term ‘‘non-human intelligence’’ means any sentient intelligent non-human lifeform regardless of nature or ultimate origin that may be presumed responsible for unidentified anomalous phenomena or of which the Federal Government has become aware."
And then use the term 17 times in the 64 pages. Sur Schumer could have just have given his nod to something he didn't read or cared for. Tho right now there are reports of them putting efforts to have it stay in the NDAA. Sure could be a tactic to have it as a bargaining chip to get something else kept in the act, but they could have used less 'weird' amendment for such a use.

[shell path]

Yes, and others have signed the bill and explicitly reasoned they don't believe the NHI stuff either

Just because you put your name on a bill doesn't mean you agree with 100% of it in every piece of specifics

If that was true there would be no such thing as bipartisan politics, nothing would ever get passed literally ever because you'd be hard pressed to find 2 people that 100% agree on the entirety of a bill unless they themselves co-wrote it together

[shell path]

The "states in public as thats politics" is a bit of a weak point, the bill itself is literally politics, and we're discussing his personal views, and as such, statements he makes related to it absolutely are relevant in assessing his belief - and if "thats politics" is enough to disconsider his personal statements, you can equally use it to disconsider his belief in the bills specifics

[jade moss]

There is a heck of a difference between "2 people that 100% agree on the entirety of a bill" and agreeing on putting your name on a 64 page amendment that is focused on "Non-human intelligence". This is not just putting your name on a bill renaming a school or building a garden. This intends to put in place a panel of 9 people with very different expertise backgrounds in order to reviews and make public decades worth of government documents + with imminent domain & subpoena powers. If they did this on the Gulf war as well as the lead up to the Afghanistan/Iraq war the whole media would be talking about it non stop because having such an amendment put out would signal there is going to be important stuff coming out. But here, because by default "UFOs are silly" it gets ignored by default rather then considering that there are some valid reasons for such efforts being made. And to be very clear it could just be an effort to get them to admit they used and are still using the UFO excuse to hide advanced tech research tests.

[shell path]

The bill is not focused around "non human intelligence"

It's focused around declassifying records

[jade moss]

the Amendment is focused on declassifying records on the "unidentified
anomalous phenomena" defined as (page 10) : "UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The term ‘‘unidentified anomalous phenomena’’ means any object operating or judged capable of operating in outerspace, the atmosphere, ocean surfaces, or undersea lacking prosaic attribution due to performance characteristics and properties not previously known to be achievable based upon commonly accepted physical principles. Unidentified anomalous phenomena are differentiated from both attributed and temporarily non-attributed
objects by one or more of the following observables:
(i) Instantaneous acceleration absent
apparent inertia.
(ii) Hypersonic velocity absent a thermal signature and sonic shockwave.
(iii) Transmedium (such as space-to-ground and air-to-undersea) travel.
(iv) Positive lift contrary to known aerodynamic principles.
(v) Multispectral signature control.
(vi) Physical or invasive biological effects to close observers and the environment"

plus (page 11) : "The term ‘‘unidentified anomalous phenomena’’ includes what were previously described as
(i) flying discs;
(ii) flying saucers;
(iii) unidentified aerial phenomena;
(iv) unidentified flying objects (UFOs); and
(v) unidentified submerged objects
(USOs)."

As for the part defining the type of records collected in order to be reviewed for declassification (page 14) : "The Collection shall consist of record copies of all Government, Government-provided, or Government-funded records relating to unidentified anomalous phenomena, technologies of unknown origin, and non-human intelligence"

So it would seem that it is indeed focused in large part on "non human intelligence".

[sly smelt]

I.e. a hell lot of radar and other sensor noise

[shell path]

"focused in large part" is a stretch for the category referenced the least across the whole ammendment

[jade moss]

'non-human intelligence' is cited 17 times in the document (and named as one of the 3 types of records to be collected) + they take great pains to define 'UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA' as being 'lacking prosaic attribution' (which they have defined as being of non 'human origin') surely just means that 'non-human intelligence' term is just an afterthought ?
All of this would indeed be a joke if it weren't the people's name on it nor the fact that there are reports that Schumer is not letting this amendment die nor get neutered during this reconciliation phase (tho it comes from Danny Sheehan so taking it with a bag of salt).

[sly smelt]

it is just a excuse to pump more money into militery rnd
russia have been exposed as being an incompitent advesary, and china is not seen as much better
so they need a new more credible threat

[jade moss]

on the subject : https://vxtwitter.com/SenSchumer/status/1731826353152958713

[tall raft]

The UAP phenomenon is not restricted to US, it has happened worldwide, across different segment of population (from random farmers to highly ranked and trained air force pilots) and has been officially documented for at least 70 years (see Foo Fighters during WW2).

Whether the phenomenon is true or not; it involves a multigenerational disinformation program from several government worldwide. Whether it is to hide the truth about these crafts or to seed culture with a new ‘threat’, it involves spending public funds unethically.

However, if you do believe that the US government went to South Africa and Australia in the 90s and 60s, subdued entire schools to tell the same coherent story with emotional engagement because it needed more funds for military rnd; my gosh that’s a master move.

(See Ariel / Wesfall incidents)

[sly smelt]

Ruwa is not exactly remote so maybe they had recently seen a VHS movie in class 🤷

Wesfall was just a balloon

Also who claimed that ether of those had anything to do with military funds?

[tall raft]

This December, Biden passed the 2023 Defense policy into law but contested a set of 4-5 laws including one stating that “fundings” related to UAP reverse engineering should be stopped unless congress is informed with the project.

He more or less stated that the release of such information could threaten National security.

Is this not enough to at least raise some interest in the matter?

I will send Biden’s written letter and reference to the laws aforementioned)

[sly smelt]

Reverse engineering of uap would include reverse engineering the stuff in the Chinese balloon

[tall raft]

https://amp.theage.com.au/national/academic-throws-light-on-40-year-old-ufo-mystery-20051002-ge0z6n.html

"The way this thing moved there is no way it could have been a weather balloon or a light aircraft”

"It didn't just sort of cruise and then slightly descend at an angle. It just stopped, dropped, and then went straight up."

Many reported that police/air force/military personnel inspected the site; some (not all) say the authorities burnt the site. The Dandenong Journal, for which the story was front-page news two weeks in a row, reported that "students and staff have been instructed to 'talk to no-one' about the incident".

[sly smelt]

🤷
It was in the 60s, anything about it is basically infected evidence and hearsay.

[shell path]

Can we not bring the government-grand UFO disinformation conspiracies here please

The few documented cases of governments actually doing it have absolutely nothing to do with larger publics and are very finely conducted in hyper-specific situations where any turn towards the public is usually from someone who came across the disinformation incidentally, or alternatively, decided to take it to the public themselves but the public not the target of it.

Everything else is conspriacized claims about it happening without anyone actually being able to identify any actual case besides calling people a "shill".

Even if we rank most claimed features of disinformation too, the people who told us are your favorite whistleblowers, not the government, so, the whistleblower would be the disinformant, not the government, even if they're "presenting the disinformation" to let us know about it (and thus also being the originator and surfacer of it to the public)

[sly smelt]

Useful idiots are often useful

[woeful birch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkzRJQ3rWa0

[sly smelt]

Off course people would think the starling flares are UFOs

[sly smelt]

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/qm5uRiYQ3AiJYEaTleohFaLPyeSVbQ2a09LmvCeNUg4/https/cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did%3Aplc%3Arddfmpbzsb3vlmf4txcr5rin/bafkreigom6r2z3x6x5beeqyjdpdtlp7v6xfncfmk2yjm67fn55rkavu7fe%40jpeg

[spark swallow]

https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astronomy/ufo-clubs-uap-testimony-congress-bf84e885?st=66wddoo0gt7ptm2&reflink=desktopwebshare\_permalink opinion piece in the WSJ about the growth of ufo believers

[woeful birch]

https://fxtwitter.com/MickWest/status/1746665362719191261

[shell path]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-what-i-learned-as-the-u-s-governments-ufo-hunter/

"Second, this narrative has been simmering for years and is largely an outgrowth of a former program at the DOD’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), which was heavily influenced by a group of individuals associated with businessman and longtime ufologist Robert Bigelow, founder of Bigelow Aerospace.
In 2009 then senator Harry Reid asked the secretary of defense (SECDEF) to set up a SAP (special access program) to protect the alleged UAP/UFO material that AATIP proponents believed the USG was hiding. The SECDEF declined to do so after a review by the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence (OUSDI), and DIA concluded that not only did no such material exist, but taxpayer money was being inappropriately spent on paranormal research at Skinwalker Ranch in Utah."

"After the negative response by SECDEF, Senator Reid then enlisted the help of then senator Joseph Lieberman to request that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) set up an SAP for the same purpose. The administrative SAP proposal package was informed by the same individuals who had been associated with AATIP."

"Finally, the key purveyors of this narrative have known one another for decades. In the early 2000s several members of this small group also participated in a study, erroneously characterized (by the same participants) as having been sponsored by the White House, on the possible societal impact of disclosing the existence of extraterrestrials to the public, with the authenticity of the abovementioned concealed government program taken as its baseline assumption. The think tank in question was a “futures” enterprise that often worked on fringe studies, and many of the individuals involved with the study also worked for Bigelow Aerospace in support of the AATIP program."

[spark swallow]

That wouldn't be surprising in the least indeed. UFO is big business.

[shell path]

Big business with a small set of players

It's interesting how much gets drawn back to the same stuff and it just ends up being a circle

[spark swallow]

And both sides have been very busy badmouthing the other side. Government is always hiding something and the enthousiasts are painted as swindlers or insane

[stone kiln]

Aliens aren't real.

[woeful birch]

Sure they are. They're just very far away. You also have to factor in our minimal time window to observe.

[thick jetty]

This is an open source research server, so when we make statements like that, we like to add proof and sources to support them. Could you provide us with any?

Or would you rather like to say that at this point no evidence has been published to prove the existence of aliens?

[stone kiln]

The latter.

[sly smelt]

To be fair it is always hard to disprove that something doesn't exist.
Black svans and all that...

[spark swallow]

Yeah, proving a negative is just not how it's done

[thick jetty]

Hey, it was late for me!
But seriously, if you choose to make such a definitive statement, you've got to back it up!

[jade moss]

erm ... "UFO is big buisness" but let's ignore the fact that Grusch (and others) have accused Special Access Programs being used to divert legitimate funds to illegitimate programs for which he got pushback to the point of him becoming a whistleblower. So seems a bit disenginuous to focus on the "Usual bunch of UFO crazies here for the big bucks !!" while ignoring the billions over the years of being accused of being diverted for programs with little to no oversight.

[shell path]

What people are more referencing is the fact Grusch keeps promoting some nwo style cabal conspiracy when the only documented cases of what is referenced being his buddies programs

And coincidentally the buddies also happen to be respectively, decade old grifters, and then a bunch of disgruntled formers running a self admitted influence campaign to, not inform the public, but get themselves jobs back with better access

It is true there is fraud, waste, abuse, and misappropriation related to the topic. The real AAWSAP/AATIP is an example of fraud and waste for sure. Elizondos out-of-work fake "AATIP" is an example of abuse

[mortal stone]

Grusch and his experiment collaborators have long been outed as weirdos. The problem is, they were at the highest levels of classification in government, contributing to PDBs in some cases. This isn't a little green men problem, it's a DoD hiring problem. Or worse: a DoD grift on the public.

[jade moss]

So Christopher Mellon has just posted this today : "I was astonished by one of the central claims made by Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick in his recent article in Scientific American blasting UAP 'conspiracists.' Specifically, his claim that: "As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded 'whistleblowers' in the public eye had elected to come to AARO to provide their 'evidence' and statement for the record despite numerous invitations.

I’m baffled because, in an effort to assist his investigation, I introduced Dr. Kirkpatrick to the former Director of the AATIP program, Lue Elizondo, as well as Dr. Eric Davis and Dr. Hal Putoff. Each of these prominent voices associated with the AATIP program spent hours briefing Dr. Kirkpatrick in a classified setting. None have received any feedback. Hopefully, the pending report to Congress on the alleged UAP recovery program will describe the specific claims made by these and dozens of other witnesses and what AARO did to evaluate them."

You can of course consider that Mellon is lying but considering his career, his words are at least as worthy as those of Kirkpatrick who went to great lengths to get published in the opinion page of the Scientific American. And considering that Kirkpatrick has had a history of being a bit loose with the truth when publicly admonishing a whistleblower as recognized by the ICIG Complaint.

https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1750294265597428216

Christopher K. Mellon (@ChrisKMellon) on X

I was astonished by one of the central claims made by Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick in his recent article in Scientific American blasting UAP 'conspiracists.' Specifically, his claim that: "As of the time of my departure, none, let me repeat, none of the conspiracy-minded 'whistleblowers'…

Twitter · Jan 24, 2024, 11:07 PM

[shell path]

Mellon has admitted to deceiving Congress so, that does batter on his source veracity quite a bit to be fair.

[jade moss]

when did he admit to that please tell ?

[shell path]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/07/how-believers-paranormal-birthed-pentagons-new-hunt-ufos.html

This is indeed what would be defined as deception, even if the basis of it is logically legitimate

[jade moss]

Oh that piece, that isn't "deceiving" nor lying, that's just framing the topic of the discussion to get as is mentioned in the article things rolling in congress who are very risk averse. As a reminder that this is the type of discussion that led to the recalibration of the radar systems which brought the discovery of Chinese balloon and then the other shotdowns over the US / Canada (which we still don't know much about as no video / picture nor pieces have been presented to the public since. most probably also balloons but then why quasi 0 info since ? ) It's quite different then Kirkpatrick publicly dunking on a whistleblower and then once out of AARO it would seem lying about having had "none of the conspiracy-minded 'whistleblowers' [...] to provide their 'evidence' and statement" which Mellon disputes.

[shell path]

Intentionally leaving information out to frame topics of discussion is in fact a type of deception (we can get into gov/mil parlace here which is distinct from public parlace)

Also, the recalibration happened in the AARO period under Kirkpatrick

UAPTF (which was the pet project of Stratton, Elizondo & co) notoriously calibrated sensors in a way that filtered out things like balloons

https://nypost.com/2023/03/21/ufo-believing-pentagon-bosses-missed-spy-craft-for-years/

https://www.space.com/chinese-spy-balloons-classified-ufos-us-military
https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-spy-balloons-seen-during-trump-administration-classified-as-ufos-2023-2

[jade moss]

For those interested : "Unclassified Summary of
Report No. DODIG-2023-109,
“Evaluation of the DoD’s Actions
Regarding Unidentified Anomalous
Phenomena,” August 15, 2023" https://media.defense.gov/2024/Jan/25/2003381266/-1/-1/1/UNCLASSIFIED SUMMARY_UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA SECURE.PDF

[jade moss]

Yeah sorry but linking to the NYPost's (which in itself is a pretty poor source on anything considering the number of times they've published flat out lies) Steven Greenstreet who has a consistent axe to grind against anyone on the UFO topic after doing a 180° turn after being very shimmy with the lot (=> The Basement Office episodes). Greenstreet has a history of pretty racist posts a while ago and recently twisted the testimony of a military personnel as a "debunk" who had been active at the US military base in Iraq just after the "Jellyfish UFO incident" to the point where that that person publicly denounced Greenstreet framing of his remarks. (I still think it looks more like a bug splat, but that's irrelevant to this discussion) ,
So in short, Mellon is "deceptive" because he chose to present the UFO topic primarly as a National Security problem to Reps. in order to take it seriously. But Kirkpatrick & Greenstreet are credible sources even tho they have a history of going after a Whistleblower and well simply lying to the public. Ok then.

[shell path]

I posted multiple others for reference, considering it covered a wide matter with multiple pieces of coverage and different angles.

That part isn't even related to Mellon, it was in response to "as a reminder that this is the type of discussion that led to the recalibration of the radar systems which brought the discovery of Chinese balloon and then the other shotdowns over the US / Canada (which we still don't know much about as no video / picture nor pieces have been presented to the public since. most probably also balloons but then why quasi 0 info since ? )"

The part related to Mellon, entirely different point, is the military.com article containing a quote from himself

Mellon was not deceptive because he "chose to present the UFO topic primarily as a National Security problem", he was deceptive because he obfuscated (decreased ambiguity of) essential elements of information related to the history and actors related to certain matters, with the intent said obfuscation would increase the chances individuals were persuaded into a belief they may not have had otherwise.

[jade moss]

Yeah ... opposed to Kirkpatrick being accused of blantedly lying about having whistleblowers present themselves to him. You are comparing Apples to Oranges as if Mellon framing the topic of UFOs to gov Reps as a security threat, which multiple higher ups like Avril Haines , former Former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency John O. Brennan and even President Obama have admitted that the US faces a problem with UAPs which they have a problem in explaining. And the "Unclassified Summary of
Report No. DODIG-2023-109" that I posted above also points to this not being just the brainchild of a few "Crazies" but as a wider concern in DOD as well as different Intel agencies. So framing it as purely the child and the interest of only a small group of the usual suspects is also a bit deceptive no ?

[shell path]

Again, I'm not simply referencing to Mellon framing, I'm referencing to his obfuscation of essential information given to congress. This had positive benefit as I recognized, that does not make it not deceptive.
I've also made no comparisons between the two individuals, nor have made any statements about my beliefs about Kirkpatrick, I'd apperciate you not making assumptions about it.
My response is the same for the last, as I've also made no statement about not viewing it as a national security threat. I do also, and I have not framed the interest itself as "the child and the interest of only a small group". I've indicated they are an involved group and individuals with interest, the same as we are, we're just not in the government.

[drifting walrus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/08/no-ufo-aliens-pentagon-report/
the 60 plus page report - https://washingtonpost.com/documents/ec60ea36-7763-4f1b-9b6a-86c86dabff98.pdf?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_11

[shell path]

Lot of good contents here that corroborate some points I've made

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/795110463016796200/1215742286969831444/Screenshot_4207.png?ex=65fddb3c&is=65eb663c&hm=2ba76e72b5241a83629f7fa30ac66cea67f7a90d6dc4e7380a33cf5605fcc868&

Elizondos "AATIP" was an informal pet project being ran outside actual approval that involved individuals making use of their personal time and access to research claimed sightings, which, if we also listen to Elizondo (we know its individuals but Elizondo is the only one we know named, connected to this pet-aatip), has included abusing access to their position (D/NPMS) to solicit classified materials without proper oversight or approval

The DHS program was yet another pet project by the same exact group of people, leveraging even more government assets without actual approval or oversight. The FOIAs over it made it kinda clear from how they were emailing but this corroborates that p heavy.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/795110463016796200/1215740100785471628/Screenshot_4205.png?ex=65fdd933&is=65eb6433&hm=e4b163b34fa59b33db7c2cdd9e2297c8256f88067943c620cc6eb8821ea30c90&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/795110463016796200/1215742688431706313/Screenshot_4208.png?ex=65fddb9c&is=65eb669c&hm=aa317139346fdca61641dc6bb14b148f412ca96661454eb7226645bf8be878ff&
This same group has leveraged government resources and money to have private organizations run unsanctioned attempts to influence public opinion

There's even a bit in here referencing how the same group managed to get UAP recovery language put into writing for a live IC program (that was then quickly removed by others w/ actual responsibility) - which they themselves tried to use as "proof" of it existing (proof that they, literally, created out of thin air lol)

[mortal stone]

Grusch's schizoid break was hidden from the public, and his clearance wasn't revoked. One of the videos shown in congressional testimony was quite obviously a weather balloon.

[shell path]

I wonder how much Grusch was misled tbh, the fact they were able to hop over to DHS and not only get people there to run another UAP pet project, but also open an entire "recovery" program that they now puff up as if it was a real one that did stuff (they literally made it up themselves), makes me believe the group has more influence than I thought before honestly.

The sad part is there's a core part of that group that's been doing stuff related to this consistently for decades, and there's a lot not in the report. There's definitely the possibility they were able to broadly recirculate their own content, obfuscating their creatorship or interaction with it, and others coming to believe it.

[mortal stone]

Most or all of Grusch's content came from the Art Bell-o-sphere (Majestic12, etc.). It is sad that actual research gets hampered by their group. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2208.11215.pdf

Unidentified aerial phenomena I. Observations of events
B.E. Zhilyaev, V. N. Petukhov, V. M. Reshetnyk
Main Astronomical Observatory, NAS of Ukraine, Zabalotnoho 27, 03680, Kyiv, Ukraine

[shell path]

There's actually an old name for it I've spoken about it some

So way back when there was a group, some of the guys still living and part of it are around all this still; Doty, Puthoff, Davis, Green. There was others but this group got called "The Aviary"

They're the exact ones behind the MJ12 conspiracies, and quite a while ago were also responsible for re-amplifying the narrative about ET-Govt interaction with their "Project Serpo" disinformation project

They also just so happen to be the group responsible for the modern Roswell narratives, from creation to amplification

This is a legacy group distinct from the "modern" guys; Kolhm, Elizondo, Mellon, Grusch, etc (who seems more misled)

This would actually make a fantastic study from the #disinfo-and-propaganda angle

[mortal stone]

I must have heard ten Bob Lazar interviews. He's a program-within-a-program, especially with the prostitution ring.

[stone kiln]

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/08/us-alien-spacecraft-program-pentagon-report-00146013?2

[tall raft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVPs-2DfN_o&ab_channel=NewsNation

Daniel Sheehan is ready to testify under oath before congress that he provided evidence of crashed retrieval material to
Sean Kirkpatrick and AARO. Subsequently that the section of the pentagon report about lack of reported evidence is misleading/false.

[wooden mountain]

That "subsequently" is doing a lot of heavy lifting 😅

[mortal stone]

I met the cofounder of NewsNation / Debrief when he was a beat cop in Savannah GA. It was very "ilerminaty" vibes in the whole town back then (X-files 90s). I think he just figured out how to monetize it... Art Bell reruns forever

https://thedebrief.org/author/tim-mcmillan/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7fva4OQzo

[tall raft]

For those interested, a good paper on how to approach the topic from a scientific standpoint. The idea is to establish a methodology to study the phenomenon. Many aspects are discussed such as data-sharing, mitigation of personal biases, protection of witnesses etc..

Ammon, Danny. 2024. “Development, Dissemination, and Revision of Good Scientific Practice for Research on UAP.” Limina - The Journal of UAP Studies 1 (1): 31–39. https://doi.org/10.59661/001c.92683.

And a recent motion at European Parliament in alignment with proposals from the paper;

• create a common methodology for UAP reports and analysis
• harmonise EU’s UAP databases

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/B-9-2024-0194_EN.pdf

[jade moss]

And other interesting find through a FOIA by D. Dean Johnson (link to the FOIA pdf itself in the twitter message) :

"BREAKING NEWS:
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT PAYDIRT:
JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF WORLDWIDE UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA REPORTING PROCEDURES (MAY 19, 2023)

By Douglas Dean Johnson

On May 19, 2023, the Joint Staff (J3, Operations; J36 Homeland Defense Division) of the Joint Chiefs of Staff disseminated to all unified military commands worldwide a set of uniform procedures to be followed for gathering data and reporting on contemporary military encounters with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), using a detailed standard reporting template.

I have now obtained a copy of that Pentagon message. I believe that its detailed contents are being made public here for the first time (if the GENADMIN message has previously been published, that publication has not come to my attention).

The message was designated as "GENADMIN Joint Staff J3 Washington DC 191452ZMAY23 Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena Reporting and Material Disposition." It was disseminated as "Controlled Unclassified Information," or "CUI."Journalist @BrandiVincent_
referred in passing to the existence of this message in a DefenseScoop article dated August 30, 2023 ("Hicks takes direct oversight of Pentagon’s UAP office; new reporting website to be launched"). I promptly asked Pentagon press officer Susan Gough to release a copy to me, but Gough replied, "I cannot provide a copy of the message to you, as it contains information that’s not publicly releasable."

https://twitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1769787984440627712

D. Dean Johnson (@ddeanjohnson) on X

BREAKING NEWS:
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT PAYDIRT:
JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF WORLDWIDE UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA REPORTING PROCEDURES (MAY 19, 2023)

By Douglas Dean Johnson

On May 19, 2023, the Joint Staff (J3, Operations; J36 Homeland Defense Division) of the Joint Chiefs…

Twitter · Mar 18, 2024, 6:08 PM

[wicked whale]

I mean... I've been producing paperwork on unidentified flying objects and there's also stuff I can't tell you about. But similar to my efforts, the desire of a nation state to know what's going on in their airspace and the existence of NDAs and clearance levels have literally nothing to do with aliens. This is just more of the same fallacy reasoning...

[wicked whale]

Also, Twitter or not, sharing CUI level documents online for sure is breaking some US law and is therefore against the rules that we have to follow on this Discord, which is hosted by a US-based company. @queen prairie - your assessment?

[sly smelt]

CUI is equlent to a request of "we would prefer if you dident share this with too many peaple but if you do its not really any problem"?

[wicked whale]

Bit more complicated than that.

It also says that CUI is information that's not really clearance level relevant but shouldn't be released in FOIA requests.

[sly smelt]

I still think that US agencies would save a lot of time if they only ever labled documents "for public relise" and everything else was assumed classified, given that they basically classify everything at some level

[wicked whale]

I can't find a distribution release statement in the embed and I'm not going to click on the Twitter link to find out. As I see it, at least the embed should be ruled to be as against Discord guidelines.

[sly smelt]

nice thing with using classified documents as your proof is that no one is ever going to be able to disprove your statement

also lol
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-iand-5_08-cr-04006/pdf/USCOURTS-iand-5_08-cr-04006-3.pdf

its a 13 page response to a FOIA request he apperently posted so if its shouldent been handed out then somone at OGIS or NARA fucked up

[wicked whale]

The fact that a thread post exists on the Bellingcat Discord that starts like this....

should be seen as a gesture of goodwill by the mod team

[sly smelt]

yeah
it started rather unhinged

[wicked whale]

Like maaaybe let's keep it 100℅ above board legal? if spreading of blatant misinformation is already being tolerated to a degree that isn't really, let's say ummm to code? house style wise?

But what do I know, I'm new here.

[sly smelt]

right
the pdf link I posted is for a court case he was involved in
if anyone want the pdf from the FOIA they need to go to his twitter

Honestly I have no clue why this thread have survived this long, though ther are some stuff with the random stuff flying around that actually have some potentiall intrests even though the link between UFO and extratirestrials are absurdly dubious
(most of the UFOs have been balkoons and ducks caught on instruments that the pilots don't know how they behave when pushed to its limits)

[thick jetty]

The Department of Defense Freedom of Information Division has now released the 9-page document to me (response letter dated March 15, 2024, received by me on March 18), with only minimal redactions.

This document?

[wicked whale]

@thick jetty where did you cite this from again? I mean the one that says CUI in bold white letters on green background in the footer and header. That page present here contains no redactions nor does it indicate the level of changed distribution statement by the DoD. (If it was lvl A, it's not CUI anymore.) All I see is a picture the first page of the document that contains elements that communicate that it was not cleared for public release, and the text above stating that the Twitter poster was refused access to the document.
The warthunder leaks about then Bradley were also not classified, by the way. Still had to be taken down. I sense a level of complacency, because few of the people here take UFO stuff seriously and rather engage in productive discussion to show where the reasoning goes wrong, and I respect that. "Classified documents probing the existence of alien life on earth leaked on Bellingcat Forum" is probably not the worst headline the organization has ever gotten. 😆 It's up to you, and probably more of a general decision the Discord mods have to make how documents like this should be disseminated. (The OWL Discord has a rule explicitly ruling out the release of CUI etc documents.)

[thick jetty]

Apologies. The tweet linked above. https://vxtwitter.com/ddeanjohnson/status/1769787984440627712

[wicked whale]

Then yes, this one.

(I can't click on the link, the machine I'm on is configured a little more "safe" than necessary, sorry, my bad )

OK I changed to another machine and downloaded a PDF document from a google drive. (Not being logged in via my account, no worries.) And as @sly smelt pointed out - someone seems to have f'd up. The initial memo says the document can't be release in full, and yet nothing has been redacted. Idk, seems grey area to me.

Oh no wait, there's a VoIP number blacked out on the last page, nvm then, thanks for taking the time looking at the issue.

@thick jetty and thanks for taking the time to look at it in detail.

[jade moss]

Even tho I appreciate the level of discussion about a document which was released through FOIA (thus legal ?). Nobody has any curiosity or knowledgeable analysis of it's content apart from "I'll disregard all of this thread because "Aliens lolz" is a bit disappointing. Documents are documents, is it Grey little men or disinformation to cover very human projects ? no idea. But what is concrete is that the US military seems to take the UAP phenomena more seriously then they are letting on to the general public and the 'Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena' Amendment to the NDAA even tho it got heavily truncated still is in the law and has very real implications as mentioned here :

https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.com/2024/01/implications-of-the-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-uap-amendment-in-the-2024-national-defense-authorization-act-ndaa/

[jade moss]

So yes I am a bit disappointed that this discord which is about "open-source intelligence" seems to be quite actively disregarding allegations that are at a minimum that private industry and contractors are abusing their contracts and notification obligations (as noted by AOC during house House Oversight Subcommittee hearing on UAPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqEUw4D1buQ ) with little to no oversight from the House and Senate.

[thick jetty]

Am I surprised they drew up a standardised method for reporting sightings and collecting evidence? No. Does that mean anything? Also no.

[shell path]

To be fair the first bit of the line here gets discredited off the bat too when applied

[shell path]

I think what happened in that case is they just didn't strike out the CUI markings. That stuff being striked out is becoming less common, you see it in FOIA reading room drops a lot now even

[wooden mountain]

ATC comms of multiple pilots asking about strange lights and flight behaviours north of Winnipeg over the weekend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jreMROj0Rwk

[jade moss]

A lot of the such descriptions being published in the UFO community but in the end seems it corresponds to Starlink satellites flaring, there is a good metabunk thread on it : https://www.metabunk.org/threads/why-are-starlink-racetrack-flares-mostly-reported-from-planes.12720/page-5#post-310431

also interesting to note, Starlink now has 5400+ satellites up there (out of around 9500 in total surrounding us) ... that's a lot of satellites added to low earth orbit in less then a decade so obviously people's past experience has to adapt to such a rapid change.

and for anyone curious, this site is nice to have a view of the "clutter" we have up there or to follow the current position of some individual satellites https://geoxc-apps.bd.esri.com/space/satellite-explorer/

[wicked whale]

I was in a very dark and warm place when the second wave of Starlink satellites was launched. I knew when to look where because I had expected them, and I used software to calculate time and direction. But I hadn't expected a spectacular view like that. A closely spaced line of star-like objects crossed the sky at a leisurely pace. I woke my tent buddy, who was sound asleep. He didn't understand my excitement, but he was blown away by what we saw. If I hadn't known in advance - it certainly didn't match anything I knew or had seen. It was one of those sights that forced you to recalibrate your expectations of reality. I'm not surprised that someone would take them for something extraterrestrial at all.

[tall raft]

I was working on a UAP report data analysis Dashboard.

The aim is to parse unstructured reports into quantifiable features (shape, color, speed etc..) and look for correlations between features.

You also have geomagnetic data analysis, mapping, multi-filtering and semantic search features.

Feel free to check it out and leave feedback or suggestions for improvements.

https://github.com/Ashoka74/UAP_Analysis_Tool/blob/master/README.md

=> Follow link and open Streamlit Space (you might need to restart it if sleeping)

[tight anchor]

@tall raft I am a member of the Scientific coalition for UAP studies (i am still working on their website update, but it’s explorescu.org) as well as part of a few other legitimate organized scientific efforts, we are all doing much the same thing as you are here, that’s great, Id love to have some help 😅I have so much data that needs to be wrangled. Shoot me a dm or we can chat here I don’t care

The work you’ve done so far looks really awesome btw. I’m a geologist by day not a programmer so teaching myself coding from the ground up has been quite a job

[tall raft]

Thanks @tight anchor, good to see you here! Yes definitely, I will dm you. Once the unstructured reports are parsed, its easier to apply statistical analyses!

[tight anchor]

I have ~the most recent 200,000 from NUFORC, and some of the older guys in the SCU have been collected tidbits for way longer than I have

[shell path]

Great little tool. Just two major points from me
-The little AI summary is skewed. It speaks like someone actively following the subject that expresses beliefs aligned with certain claims. This is, not very good to use or present as objective.

-2nd here is more of a question. Does this tool do anything at all to filter out actual hoaxes? Leaving out edge cases where more debate can be had. If not something there should be worked out because it will sour the data immensely.

Otherwise great tool though, love some of the other capabilities you threw in there like eg the semantic parts, don't generally see those with these sorts of tols.

[tight anchor]

Honestly a hoax detection algo might be worth experimenting with too

Basically assed the level of “genuineness” in someone’s report.

[shell path]

Perhaps, it'd take a lot more QAing of the processes though

My one big issue with the tools like the above that have existed is they tend to overwhelmingly include things that are also proven hoaxes also, and it's presented as a dataset where these are held equally with non-hoaxes that legitimately may express unnatural characteristics. Even if you took the time to point them out, making things like graphs off them to characterize shapes and etc would end up being off because of it.

[tall raft]

Thanks for the feedback! You meant the AI summary was being speculative instead of report-based only?

[shell path]

Er kind of, moreso that its speculation is very finely aligned with "believer" audiences rather than a more objective summary

I don't think speculation itself is an issue I'll give some examples one sec

For example the entire summary title is framed as "suppression" that's, not really what's happening, and every example it gives are examples entirely disconnected from one another, not an aligned effort. Eg "The Offut AFB incident highlights the common tactic of attributing UFO sightings to mundane phenomena..."

The issue as, as far as we know, the "Offut AFB Incident", was in fact mundane phenomena, so the framing here that it backs the idea its a "common tactic" is off base, there is no tactic being employed here.

[tall raft]

The hoax is a valid point. There are a few ways to mitigate this.

1. During Parsing, the AI can assign a subjective confidence score to the report, you can then filter lowest sections. , you can add a section to explain score for more transparency

2. After clustering, you can filter-out some clusters (e.g. Nb of witnesses, visibility, Distance from Objet, Background of Witness..)

3. Train a model to classify hoaxes or known objets from unknowns. I have a dataset of 3k cases with these labels.
   But the model might learn misclassifications in the dataszt (Balloons, Haze, nothing to see here)

[shell path]

Also the "Dayton, Ohio Sighting" presents an issue. When it comes to Public Affairs (who would be talking about this), you do not respond to hoaxes or any form of deceptive content unless absolutely needed, or else you just lend awareness and potential credence to the issue.
Granted we cannot say, that, they did not speak about it for that reason - it's also unlikely that a b-52 was dispatched to chase a UFO, that's uh.. Yeah. I wouldn't respond to that from the PA shop either lol.

So this does not really show any concerted attempt at silencing government bodies, rather, it's pretty precedented not to approach potential things like that exact one. How you see companies adjust it to make memes is really risky for gov/mil bodies so it's approached less from the humor angle, which, would really be the only applicable one. Granted, there's other examples that could probably fit a little bit better aligned to that point.

This ends up with "Patterns and Implications" being an issue because there is no true pattern, they're not connected like that. Some of the paterns identified are general communications pattern not related specifically to this topic. It also leaves out non-gov/mil suppression activities. For example, some of the most renowned and favorite personalities in the subject, in fact, actively suppress information in a near consistent manner, usually the information they tell you exists that no one else can release but them.

[tight anchor]

I haven’t looked at your actual prompting anything just kind of the visuals so I’ll look at it when I get back home today

With the project nanu team we had so many talented people from diff fields working out the database schema weekly for like a year to make its robust nonbiased non influencing as possible so it’s no easy thing to do

[tight anchor]

Mine pulls up the weather and stuff from the day of the report too lol

Here’s an example

https://chatgpt.com/share/b652300f-1f19-4f25-bc5d-fc47de1897d2

Some of the api tool calls are messed up rn bc I don’t use this one I use it via api on my pc

I have a much larger schema than that one as well

[tall raft]

Note that the AI summary was prompted with this question: "Can you dive into details about authorities suppressing information about UFO sightings?" The AI model focused on answering this question. You can leave it blank for a neutral summary

[tight anchor]

For refernce here is one of my prompts

It was too long to send in chat

[tall raft]

Very nice! Better to filter data using actual weather data than reported weather (less consistent)

[tight anchor]

Wym?

Like I mean that it calls the weather data API to get historical weather

This one is much better

[tall raft]

Good prompt-engineering here!
I also provide a JSON template to help the model extract consistently.
So in your agentic approach you use function-calling to augment the data with external API calls? (Wikipedia, distance computation, weather API)

There is a trade-off between giving the model pre-conceived values in the schema (e.g shape = [sphere, triangle, squared]) or keeping it open. In the former, you have cleaner data but you might miss some elements or oversimplify. In the latter, you'll have more accurate, and less biased parsed data. However, you might need to perform an additional step of clustering to get meaningful categories because of phrasing variability (e.g. shape = [triangular, triangle, pyramidal, pyramid-like]).

[tall raft]

I meant your approach is good becaude one could argue that sensor-based weather/cloud weights more than witness-based weather/cloud estimates.

[tight anchor]

Yes I have many other api endpoints planned to implement as well

really I wanted it to be able to recreate the entire scene to scale in blender lol

[tight anchor]

Yes that was the intent, and also to cross verify how factual they tend to be. If In their report they say it was dark outside and cold and rainy and it was July at 3pm and sunny then maybe we should lower the significance of apparent self conflicting reports

I also had it try to find say imagery from around the time and date of the location and feed it into the bot

[tight anchor]

Here is a link to the working draft of my proposed system, I’ll be seeking funding through NASAs ROSES program, open to anyone who wasn’t a to collaborate. https://docs.google.com/file/d/14xV_4WH3wElkCQfNkNTcNW9SeiIM8I_V/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword

[mortal stone]

of possible interest https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5yqmb/ufo-hunters-built-an-open-source-ai-system-to-scan-the-skies

[grave knoll]

I work with cosmic ray related stuff. I suspect that some of the UAPs are actually high energy cosmic ray generated if they are only seen visually and not with instruments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray_visual_phenomena

The magnetosphere protects earth from most of the cosmic rays, but there are still lots of high energy particles travelling in the atmosphere and they may hit the eye or nerve pathways and leave some signal. This would happen quite randomly, but an extreme event could also affect multiple persons at the same time.

[sly smelt]

Iirc You can theoretically get neutron interactions in your eye, but you would most likely only see it while having your eyes closed and even than your brain might just filter it out

[grave knoll]

Yeah it would be rare occurrence.

I recall my computer having once a weird, non reproduceable, cascading failure around year 2000. Few years later, when I was doing a lab demonstration with effects of radiation to electronics in space I realized that it may have been some high energy particle going through the electronics and leaving some charge on places. (It was nice to play around with machinery which was used by European Space Agency to actually test electronics for space operations...)

Modern electronics are actually more prone for radiation effects than the old, as the amount of electricity used for everything is less and it requires a lesser amount of charge to be deposited into electronics cause effects. But still I have not had anything similar since

[sly smelt]

Yeah, gave a fun error in a Belgian election and a Mario 64 speedrun

[tight anchor]

Cosmic rays are momentary though as they’re traveling at C though so how would that explain prolonged sightings?

I could see the contrary, cosmic rays accounting for instrument anomalies however we have built protection for cosmic ray bit flips bc it is something that actually used to fuck up computers

There is a pretty popular conjecture type theory that the things people “see” are not real at all and that whatever “it” is is simply able to distort people perceptions or experiences internally to believe they saw whatever they did

[thick jetty]

That would be a shame for this server, because for the purposes of fact-based open source research ot would stay in the realm of speculation.

[grave knoll]

I would assume that the effect is similar to staring into bright light for a bit too long. At least I do "see" the light for few more moments after the exposure to the light has ended.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh-My-God_particle

This kind of rare event could dump lot of charge to vision system.

But as I stated this is just my educated guess.

[tight anchor]

well yeah thats what im saying is that it would be a shame for anything becuase that would make it extremely difficult to research for obvious reasons. It is sort of a "hard" problem in the field. Gary Nolan and his Team at Stanford generally lean into researching aspects like that related to the phenomenologic aspects of things. Really, at this stage no one knows, and any hypothesis is as likely to be wrong as any other.

[tight anchor]

If anyone is interested in Further research and tool development that would be outisde the scope of this thread, Ashoka and I have made a server where we have lots of open research projects, anyone is welcome to join, just shoot me a dm and I will get you added

[tight anchor]

Hi y’all, I got approval to work with NUFORC (national UFO Reporting center) on implementing a Graph database, AI classification system, and some other things that will be part of their site and available to visitors. If anybody would like to assist on this project just send me a dm. NUFORC is the official FAA designated endpoint for civil aviation UAP reports so it’s a neat opportunity

[jade moss]

good to hear ! don't hesitate to keep us informed here time to time on how things are going

[tall raft]

https://youtu.be/Xv0IoOQpLBU?si=lnLEf5QZLb_lDwQn

2nd UAP public congressional hearing happened today.

Full hearing:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X2tO-DntUkc&pp=ygUZdWFwIGNvbmdyZXNzaW9uYWwgaGVhcmluZw%3D%3D

[jade moss]

So there was a house hearing yesterday : "Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena: Exposing the Truth" (link to the hearing for those interested : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT2iWKZr0qA&t=1s) during it the following document was entered into the official record by Mace and is following an article by Shellenberger (a dubious journalist at best) supposedly based on a whistleblower sharing information with him on this : https://mace.house.gov/immaculateconstellation

My question is from people's experience on such procedures, how legit does this document look ? Do internal investigations follow such a format ?

[shell path]

That's not an internal investigation document

That was misleadingly presented during the hearing heavily

That document is personal research conducted by someone as a personal endevour, it was not, as claimed, an "internal investigation" or anything of the sort

It's only a "government document" because if you work in those jobs and use systems like that to create personal products, its inherently considered a government product, you cant keep it yourself. Not really reflective of it being govt directed/done/informed/etc. If you were to write an OSINT report using PAI pulled off SIPR, simply because you got it off SIPR, your document would be restricted from self-directed distro.

The fact this information is apparently so open that random DOD attachees at the department of state can find it broadly open on info systems, kind of showcases it isn't as secret or restricted as they claim lol

Also what they're talking about with "Immaculate Constellation" is another feat of their own, no joke, this is not the first time they've done that either, another case being Kona Blue.

If you pay attention to "Immaculate Constellations" description, it is either misrepersentingly speaking to control systems or it in fact is/was UAPTF or a short term precusor likely also led by the same people (at the time).

As for control systems, the explain that incorrectly. "Parent SAPs" are NOT a control system. Control Systems in relation to SCI are basically break down categorizations covering specific information/materials. For example, the HUMINT Classification System is a Control System, it has sub compartments, those being HCS-Operations and HCS-Products, with HCS-O containing more operational detailing and HCS-P being used to identify products based off HUMINT reporting.

So IF "Immaculate Constellation" is a control system, that is not "proof" of it being a SAP, or anything SAP related at all. What that would be saying is it's a control system to categorize content, and, as we can see, has output widely available to DOD at-large and not just SAPs.

As for the secondary potential there, it was entirely this crew that early on. Jay Stratton led the stand-up of UAPTF in 2020 but all those guys were doing limited things related to it before, the article does correctly identify, the 2017 NYT article. Jay was also part of AAWSAP and that whole DIY crew post-AAWSAP.
What is left out here though is that crew, including Jay Stratton per his own admittance, participated in an influence campaign to leverage public awareness and influence of political decision makers to establish, basically, offices for them to go get jobs at again. If "immaculate constellation" is real, there is a very high likelyhood it is in fact referencing Jay Strattons work post-NYT report and pre-UAPTF.

[tall raft]

If you are a EU citizen and want to be part of this movement, manifest yourself

[shell path]

One thing I would offer caution with is known which organizations you're supporting. Some of the ones existing over in the EU are connected to the guys over here self-admittedly running an influence campaign that has been conducted malignly.

"This is based on credible sources that say information on UAPs has been withheld from the Congress and the Senate and the public."
In terms of actual source credibility analysis, these guys drop off the metric entirely.

"The UK had an official programme in place within the Ministry of Defence (MOD) to collect and
analyse UAP observations until 2009. "
They are referencing Nick Pope, who, self-admittedly, was not in an "official programme" - he was given the task unofficially as side-work to his main job.

"A regular exchange of information on UAP takes place between the five countries that are part
of the ‘Five Eyes’ (US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand"
This is misrepresenting. It's never been claimed these were "regular exchanges". This entire claim roots back to a single conference that happened that some FVEY countries attended. That is all.

Their whole bit about Russia includes prominent disinformation from American-Soviet-UFO-bros that don't exist at all in Russian or Soviet coverage of the topics, nor are known or accepted as factual personalities by the people now-known to have been participants in Soviet parascience programs.

"including incidents in which the Russian military sent fighter jets to try and chase UAPs and shoot them down in some cases"
The only times this has been documented it has later been proven as actual disinformation.
One of their linked sources here is heavily resourced on the time George Knapp supposedly interacted with a bunch of Russian mobsters and "former" KGB officers and received troves of "stolen documents" that do not correlate with anything else known. Some of these materials have been as-of-now proven to be actual fakes.

[naive lynx]

I deleted the message with the attachment. We generally don't allow file attachments except for images. Feel free to repost a link to the original document though.

[void kettle]

🖖

[shell path]

@acoustic hollow dang dont think itll let me upload them all got auto modded

[acoustic hollow]

ahh no worries

[shell path]

some select examples of ones that took off more than others

like the sources for these most literally recognize them as planes but think they're drones disguised as planes

[acoustic hollow]

maybe this is a better place to talk about the political reaction to it that the usa-canada channel?

[shell path]

some helicopters too (the DRONES BEDMINSTER NJ was a police heli, looking for one of these drones 🤣)

[shell path]

perhaps I hopped up here so we didnt drag the chan too far off the just political end

since theres the uh... conspiracy element to it

there has been a tiny handful of actual drone cases though, mostly around picatinny arsenal (they stopped before the media buzz w all the misidentified planes and mixed reporting)

[acoustic hollow]

yeah for sure, there may be a lot of real drone activity but ppl are talking about it like it's flying saucers. I was kind of ignoring it on that basis, the fact that congress is talking about it is interesting though. different reps might have different motivations

someone's asking "why can't the DOD share what it knows" now, making insinuations about China, "Xi Jinping is a monster!" talk about Putin, etc.

[acoustic hollow]

lol

[shell path]

Yeah it's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of how media is reporting it

Like 95% of these drone-plane misidentifications are also coming from accounts that are just using the "Disguised drone" as a dogwhistle for UFO/aliens also

Actually an interesting nugget if you like following these topics

One of the biggest recirculators of footage that's been getting a lot of reposts and engagement, and likely spawning some peoples "witnessing" (eg they interacted with the account before their own experience, then experienced it themselves too) - is themselves reposting footage from another account. The account it reposts footage from is from Brazil and posts entirely in Spanish, and does not source any of its patently American content like the groves of random home security footage it posts 🤣

[acoustic hollow]

oh good grief

anyway looking like the hearing was actually yesterday afternoon, the live youtube just loops. HT probably set it up that way instead of as a video you can just view https://www.newsweek.com/fbi-rep-possible-drone-new-jersey-drone-threat-we-dont-know-1999105

[jade moss]

Hey Hey Hey it's obviously Iranian who have developed a drone mothership drone thanks to ... er aliens I guess. But yeah it's quite wild to see how this "NJ drone Flap" really blew up. I have no idea what the initial "drone" sightings might be as it's all buried under a wealth of light blob videos of planes at night on different social media platforms.

The worrying aspect is how you can see local and Washington Republicans starting to us it to pummel the government at unable to "keep the American public safe" and even one publicly telling the public should shoot these things down. It's quite an interesting case of mass hysteria

Tho you have to admit that the Offical response from the WH and other upper tier orgs have been quite lackluster and evasive which is quite actively leaving a lot of room for the rumor mill in UFO community & Right wing spheres to grow.

[shell path]

There's a reason why involved orgs don't make comments about this stuff it's an actual legitimate communications technique

The simple answer there is, there are gaps in certain information. If they breath credence to those other claims by simply mentioning them (yes denials are taken as credence in some cases, this is one of them) it can induce just-as or even more negative effects than not mentioning it and the resulting effects.

tldr its a way to not have people spin off your comms into conspiracies even more

[tall raft]

You have a clear confirmation bias in this situation, everyone is looking up wanting to witness a UFO and will fit anything with lights into the description

On the other hand, a handful of people with good cameras, managed to take interesting pictures

https://www.facebook.com/groups/552059654373970/permalink/558753067037962/

Although, looks a bit similar to a close-up of a star, twinkling because of Earth atmosphere's

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D_om5xtAThU

[shell path]

That doesn't relate to why DoD public affairs offices make their statements the way they do, it is for the reason I just mentioned. There's some very similar but not directly the same areas of overlap reasoning too eg not causing panics or messaging in a way that induces biases and impacts ongoing analysis or investigations leveraging public input

What you reasoned there would be why people are seeing things in general, noones debated that part of it

[tall raft]

I was focusing more on the quality of public input than DoD response, I was pointing-out that prior expectations create noise in the data. The first wave of reports should weight more than the following ones

[shell path]

https://x.com/abcnewslive/status/1867284898035179916

ABC News Live (@ABCNewsLive) on X

Addressing drone sightings in New Jersey, national security spokesman John Kirby says: "Many of the reported sightings are actually manned aircraft that are being operated lawfully...There's no evidence of any foreign-based involvement."

Twitter · Dec 12, 2024, 7:06 PM

[untold mason]

Has there been any further information about the drone crash in NJ?

[tawdry jackal]

https://www.mycentraljersey.com/story/news/local/somerset-county/2024/12/13/drone-crash-nj-hillsborough-reports-unconfirmed/76962421007/
very recent- it appears the reports are unconfirmed- most are saying that they saw a drone crash. Some news agencies report it as already confirmed, take that with a grain of salt. Governor did ask for more resources to look into it

[wary mirage]

https://thedebrief.org/pentagon-says-no-evidence-of-foreign-adversaries-as-federal-investigators-remain-baffled-by-mystery-drone-sightings/

https://x.com/Sheetrockdust/status/1866530111547412493

Dale Carhartt Jr. (@Sheetrockdust) on X

This is what’s flying over NJ. It’s very clearly a DoD trial of this particular type of VTOL drone meant for Navy logistics & monitoring. https://t.co/EEo3wGxqxV

Twitter · Dec 10, 2024, 5:07 PM

"Among the proposed explanations for at least a portion of the recent drone sightings, some have pointed to small aircraft like the BlackFly, produced by light aircraft Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) manufacturer Pivotal, who announced in October that more than a dozen of their prototype aircraft had been sent to private owners and the U.S. Air Force." https://thedebrief.org/mystery-drones-invading-new-jersey-airspace-are-keeping-officials-on-edge-as-feds-probe-for-answers/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pivotal_BlackFly

[shell path]

This has not been imaged or video'd a single time there

Quite a jump

[grand prawn]

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/drones-texas-new-jersey-19978116.php

[last zealot]

Unable to verify the audio, but this very much worth a listen. ATC / Pilots discussing objects off the coast of Oregon: https://x.com/lesternare/status/1867719532863009114

Lester Nare (@lesternare) on X

The full 13+ minute ATC recording includes pilots from multiple aircraft (trained observers) calling in to report red orb(s) flying between 30k-50k ft at hypersonic velocities in corkscrew patterns coming in an out from the ocean/ coast of Oregon.

Fascinating listen.

Twitter · Dec 13, 2024, 11:53 PM

[tawdry jackal]

I'd love to see this from liveatc if anyone knows how to dig it up

[shell path]

A slight but good example case of the issue going on (and an example of "something" that isnt/wouldnt be a plane)

This made it onto CNN yesterday

This is from a tiktok video, from an account which posts a lot of videos like this and of other jets and etc. Something present across pretty much all their videos, is that, after you click "see more", THEN you see note that it is digitally created.

[fleet bay]

https://fixupx.com/takethatclouds/status/1867866332034932915

[covert harness]

https://x.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1867693141270393014

Oliya Scootercaster 🛴 (@ScooterCasterNY) on X

NEW: Another UNCONFIRMED report, originally called in an hour ago, of a "Drone crashing into Empire State Building".

Twitter · Dec 13, 2024, 10:08 PM

[thick jetty]

Did she just snitch on her husband's crime?

[austere terrace]

This may explain at least one of the lights reported. https://x.com/lemonodor/status/1867344191950663910

John Wiseman (@lemonodor) on X

@avoflight @rosscoulthart @chrisotis78 @AlchemyAmerican @uncertainvector @blackvaultcom @WxWyDaryl @BenHansen00 At 0445Z just before 1LF started to descend, so I assume it's when they were saying they saw traffic 22 miles away at 2 o'clock, there was an Alaska Air 737 at 2-3 o'clock at 32 NM, same altitude. Seems odd that Center didn't call that...

Twitter · Dec 12, 2024, 11:02 PM

[shell path]

This is false

This is from last night and nothing at all happened there, there wasn't even LE/EMS response for any reports

[rotund quarry]

any reliable source to understand what is happening in the US? too much disinfo around...

[dark mantle]

The most reliable source so for regarding the drone situation has been the ongoing coverage by the War Zone.

However, with that said, there is too much hystera and disinfo going on to get any facts.

[shell path]

Pretty much

The best summary that can be offered is the actual "drone" thing that started this was last month, and media never picked up on it. Even now there may be a handful of actual drone cases, but a majority of what people are talking about/sharing are patently planes and helicopters, and a lot of the recirculations are leaving out the captions that include things like "I thought it was a plane but my audio didn't record so it must be a drone", or just, like with the CNN example above, not even attempting to find the initial source which openly identifies their video is digitally created.

[dark mantle]

With that said, saw this video posted on the NJ Drone FB group, (Yes I know, not the most accurate source). And speaking about illegal activity, there is a video of a Cessna pilot being extremely reckless over Whitefield, NJ. on the 13th.

The person flying this plane definitely deserves a visit from the FAA, as shown by the ASBD data.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/19UJRftwic/

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a39b0b&lat=40.657&lon=-74.377&zoom=14.1&showTrace=2024-12-13&trackLabels&timestamp=1734132483

[austere terrace]

It’s a little tricky to say “definitely”. The GPS altitude consistently shows it 600 feet higher than the barometric altitude. GPS can be less accurate than the barometric altitude but it’s still a data. Also remember that ADS-B reports altitude for a standard pressure of 29.92—you have to adjust for the actual barometric pressure at the place and time of flight (which admittedly is usually at most 100 or 200 feet)

It does look low, just pointing out some subtleties to the altitude data.

[last zealot]

This but has been ongoing longer than a month, there were numerous reported incidents earlier in the year before the RAF incidents.

I think while there are some legit / interesting observations amongst the noise, it's a real Baader-Meinhof phenomenon right now as people look up to the sky for the first time. It's almost the same when you see the sky for the first time without light pollution - when you look up, turns out it's pretty busy all of the time with various things.

[shell path]

The coverage that started the current chain stretches back to the incidents at picatinny arsenal and nas earle that started last month and ended on december 6th (or at least last reported on dec 6th by those facilities)

There's reported drone incidents that happen everywhere all the time, doesn't make them connected to the linear set of narratives here

Though yeah what you mention to the bottom is at least part accurate but, it's again worth noting, most of this is literally spurred by people who recognize it as a plane and think they're disguised drones. If you go to the original sources and look at their own commentary, they self-recognize it is planes but for random reasons think they're disguised drones. Like one of the most shared and amplified cases in this spat has been from a lady who thinks it was a disguised drone simply because her phone did not pick up audio while recording, nothing more, nor anything about the thing she thought was a plane up until she realized her audio didn't record.

leaving this part out is exactly what media is doing too and it is why it keeps amplifying, cnn literally just posted an outright fake last night and didnt even attempt to find the original source (who openly identifies its a digital creation). that's where what you mention comes in because a lot of people are talking about it but not posting those photos/videos with just planes. The reason that is happening, is because everyone is posting the picatinny and nas earle actual drone cases with these random claims, and it perceptively makes them appear like one linear continuis event when it is not.

[latent nest]

Assuming people have come across actual UFO/UAPs, in New Jersey/the U.K., has anyone done rigorous OSINT analyses of these videos?

It wouldn't make sense that the authorities are responding the way they are if it was just normal planes.

[shell path]

Yes, this sort of analysis has been done very extensively. It is all planes (and 3-4 cases of a helicopter, and 1 case of a bird diverter)

DOD, DHS, and DOJ have all said most sightings are misidentified planes, and the only ones they've validated are the cases at NAS Earle and picatinny

Local LE does not have the capability to research this stuff which is why they called federal support. Because of the media spat above, they still consistently get calls that they themselves cannot find an answer too becuse they do not have the organic capability to do so (you cant just slap a normal detective on this, 9.9/10 they have no relevant experience or training, and you'd be taking them off actual crim cases). Local LE is at the whims of having to respond to every report that is made to 911 too so they have to respond to every call that comes in, they can't "not take it seriously".

For example we have an example of this from NewsNation where they let the reporter go off about how its a drone even though you can, still tell its a plane based off its shape. The cop says nothing, and you can see their laptop in the background singularly using FR24 and zoomed into about a 2 mile radius in either direction (basically, zoomed in far too quick, planes in the air most of the time are much further away than they physically appear).
If you zoom out at the same area during this time period but at about a 15-20 mile radius away, is a plane heading in the same exact direction, low enough to be observable, and from an aircraft with a light setup pretty much the same as what was seen.

The proper way to do this, as you can find some people do, is using proper all-source analysis. There are tools like Sitrec from Mick West/Metabunk that allows data to be input for predictive optical mapping and visual object tracking to corroborate claims. You do not just use FR24 because all those sites have different coverage, you use multiple at the same time such as FR24 and Flightaware. Alongside or after this, you can start to nail down more observables, such as cross-referencing slide decks of aircraft photographed from multiple angles at the same time, and indicating things like positions of discernable features on the object and corroborating it with those slide decks and other image/video of potential matches.

Or just as another recent example of this part of the issue.
https://x.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1867999080435384806

Governor Hogan, someone who has actually been part of the group trying to engage with the government to "take it more seriously" themselves, claims to have spotted some of these himself.

"Like many who have observed these drones, I do not know if this increasing activity over our skies is a threat to public safety or national security."

It was the orion constellation. Not even moving aircraft.

Steven Greenstreet 🐷 (@MiddleOfMayhem) on X

Some of the "drones" in Maryland Governor Larry Hogan's video are just stars in the constellation Orion.

#Drones #Stars

Twitter · Dec 14, 2024, 6:24 PM

[latent nest]

@shell path You're saying there's two places where it's not planes or helicopters?

[shell path]

I'm saying two events have been sequentially blended together and because of bad communication practices it, for most people, perceptively appears as one big linear event.

NAS Earle and the Picatinny cases are the only ones that have been validated as actual drones - this set of events had already been over by the time everyone started "looking up in the sky"/news and etc about this started. Media and etc did not cover the original incidents, they only referenced it after the increase in Twitter and Reddit coverage about "disguised drones", which they entirely fail to reference in their reporting covering it but blending both events.

You then have a fracture there. The pictures/videos you see, in the following order, make up the most claims-
-photos/videos of planes claimed as disguised drones
-photos/videos of helicopters claimed as disguised drones
-photos/videos of lights that have no discernable body to them outside the presence of the light. These may or may not be drones, unknown. These make up, by far, the absolute least amount of photos/videos. None of these has been validated as a drone.
-photos/videos of constellations
-photos/videos of miscellanious objects eg the bird diverter

Most discourse around the event interchangably references all these together. Which causes more people to look up, and the above categories have remained pretty much steady in their sequencing as discourse amplifies. People see an unidentified light in the sky, and because everyone else is saying that is drones incorrectly, that is also what you state in your claim, because it's the only reason that's been proffered to explain an otherwise unknown (you've already seen planes flying, you might not be a pilot, but you know!).

[austere terrace]

"It wouldn't make sense that the authorities are responding the way they are if it was just normal planes." Not sure this follows. They need to investigate. The feds have said they haven't been able to corroborate a single sighting, but have debunked "many" as misidentified aircraft. (Some are also misidentified cars, stars, boats, ships.) The local agencies seem to be unqualified and have succumbed to the same hysteria.

[frozen grove]

Remember that they sent stealth fighters after some Kids balloon.

[shell path]

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/4002374/joint-staff-addresses-drones-over-new-jersey-military-installations/

[covert harness]

it was a ham radio radiosonde

infact I heard its signal on 404 MHz or so

it transmitted its own location from the radiosondes module

I didnt get the fuss at all

ive seen radiosondes over my sky a hundred times and it looked nothing different

[frozen grove]

Yes, I dont remember the details but point is that they got panic and sent fighters after completely normal and harmless balloons.

[jade moss]

The communications from our representatives really don't help calm things down or put context to the situation . Latest example :

"Ask a Pol asks:
What’s your takeaway from the recent classified US Senate Intelligence Committee UAP briefing?
Sen. Jerry Moran:
'People ought to be very cautious,' Sen. Jerry Moran"

https://www.askapol.com/p/be-very-cautious

I understand that you have to be evasive after a classified meeting but such phrasing can be understood in everyway possible for each camp. Quite disheartening and the populist media are loving it.

[shell path]

Just to note, AskaPol infamously cherry picks parts of their statements for presentation

There's been times they've had 9-10 minute discussions and short-ended it to something like that, then we get the full video and it's very clearly in an entirely different context than originally promoted

[shell path]

The first actual in-region confirmed drone case outside the Picatinny and NAS Earle cases

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyvnnj8g34o

It was in fact random civilians flying a normal commercial drone

Note how BBC even semantically plays into it, these are "flying objects" and not drones, even though this is literally the only actual drone case since the entire spat started.

[dark mantle]

Ok, now this is interesting.

https://www.twz.com/air/drone-incursions-closed-wright-patterson-air-force-bases-airspace-friday-night

[shell path]

https://x.com/lrozen/status/1868776629746491457

Laura Rozen (@lrozen) on X

🧵NSC’s John Kirby: Having closely looked at the tips and collated them as best we can from concerned citizens, we assess that the sightings to date include a combination of lawful commercial drones, hobbyist drones and law enforcement drones, as well as manned fixed wing

Twitter · Dec 16, 2024, 9:54 PM

[shell path]

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2024-12-16/nj-planes-hit-by-lasers-16185266.html

[fleet bay]

https://fxtwitter.com/dhsgov/status/1868853164151120317

[tall raft]

https://www.uapcheck.com/news/id/2952/shadows-in-the-sky-unidentified-drones-and-the-new-jersey-mystery/

[thick jetty]

Indeed, we reviewed hundreds of videos with the help of experts and flight tracking apps. We were not able to confidently identify a single drone.
https://bsky.app/profile/rileymellen.bsky.social/post/3ldpdhhx5ok2s

Riley Mellen (@rileymellen.bsky.social)

We took a long, hard look at the objects seen in the night skies over New Jersey.

They're...pretty much always planes. 🛸🛸🛸 www.nytimes.com/2024/12/19/v...

Bluesky · Dec 20, 2024, 2:25 AM

[austere terrace]

According to Senator Andy Kim, DHS told him once they deployed "thermal sensors, drone-specific radar, radio frequency kits, and visual monitors" there were no drone detections. The initial sightings that kicked off the FBI investigation were all visual. Visual sightings over nuclear facilities, Bedminster, Coast Guard, and an airport were determined to be crewed aircraft. I'd say all this taken together, along with the nytimes analysis being unable to find a single conclusive video of a drone implies there were never any drones. (Andy Kim's thread: https://x.com/AndyKimNJ/status/1870154836672385340)

[jade moss]

For those curious of the topic, I stumbled upon this podcast. Still on the fence on the subject but the way it is being discussed in certain spaces is certainly intriguing : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/69-beyond-conventional-physics-extended-electrodynamics/id1675146725?i=1000680173004

"The episode highlights the growing convergence of theoretical physics and practical engineering, suggesting we may be on the cusp of revolutionary advances in propulsion, energy, and communication technologies. The discussion emphasizes the importance of continued research, increased funding, and broader collaboration across disciplines to accelerate development in these crucial areas." the UAP topic is talked quite extensively (and not only by Puthoff )

[brisk sapphire]

I have a theory the drones, if they exist, are mapping WiFi SSIDs. With such a map less smart drones might be able to navigate cross country at low altitude without guidance, or someone might be thinking so and testing it out.

[austere terrace]

It seems pretty clear at this point that they did not exist.

[shell path]

"the drones" everyone is talking about, what lemonodor says, there has not been a single one actually confirmed - every single one investigated by anyone has turned out to be manned aircraft or misidentified objects that aren't aviation related or etc

"the drones" in general for the past 4 years that little people have focused reporting on yah you're probably spot on with some of it there, though overall probably includes a bit of a diversity in specific objectives

[austere terrace]

I think you'd have to have good arguments for why you don't just buy the data or download data from WiGLE or use cars, which I think would be a much more efficient, cost-effective, and attention-getting way to gather that data.

[austere terrace]

er, less attention getting! less!

[latent nest]

What's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/InterdimensionalNHI/s/A1Dz41TmR2?

[last zealot]

https://x.com/BillyKryzak/status/1871347410376736903

ProPixel Imaging and UAP Research (@BillyKryzak) on X

HOLY #$#@!!! A huge Delta Shaped UAP!!!
Um... No.
Confidence - Extreme

Twitter · Dec 24, 2024, 12:09 AM

[shell path]

Spawning off the talk in #far-right-monitoring, this is a pretty good quick summary read of "who" and "what" they are

https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/factsheets/factsheet-the-raelian-movement/

@last swan in case ur interested in just a quicker read instead of a fuller convo

One thing you see with UFO/ET esotericism is yeah it does present a lot weirder, in cases like Raelism we see widespread integration of other religions interspersed with the UFO/ET knowledge, so the "mysteries" are much more kinda just hyper-conspiracized versions of other religions lore (using lore in a literal sense here to account for everyone since theyre all termed diff, not to degrade any religion) rather than being er, more realistic knowledge just with "mystery" oriented presentation of it.

[last swan]

Ah okay - I was under the impression that these were people who literally believed in physical UFOs as concretely real (at some point in time) in the conventional sense of knowing something is real, instead of being something in/of the western esoteric tradition

This sounds like pretty codified dogma though: kanye west indicated he actually is engaged with this?

To become a Raëlian, a novice must be baptised. This baptism is called “transmission” or “the cellular plan” within the Raëlian movement. This initiation rite is performed only by upper-level members

It sounds membership-based

[shell path]

Well, they do believe in physical UFOs as being concretely real

Or at least "the movement" systemically does not every person might

[shell path]

He never said he's a member or follower explicitly but he's posted their symbols and etc before

That's also why I referenced Kanye kinda toys with esoteric stuff quite a bit, there could be a lot of reasons why he does any case, could be entirely irrelated to belief in that movement even.

That game he was involved in for example had secret levels and a bunch of weird coding and subliminals about things like "accension" and etc. Granted bias can step in for this example so have to be really careful and assess any case but you can catch it in his music videos and etc sometimes also - overall, at least in my opinion, it doesn't really seem finely aligned with any group I can think of, so even if he does "believe" any of it its probably a very individualized blend of a bunch of things.

Kanyes talked a lot about numerology stuff too which Raelism doesn't really delve into at all

It gets memed about a lot because of NWO type conspiracies but you can actually find a lot of celebrity musicians and etc who believe in stuff like that, they're just not part of any weird occult orders or NWO plots etc just single individuals with their own respective belief systems.

[tight anchor]

I'm a scientist with the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies, so I sometimes bump into some of the people you'd see on TV and in Congress regarding the UAP phenomenon, and I try to get as much as I can out of them of course lol. From what I've gathered from the breadcrumbs of those who have access to more information than I do, the most interesting aspect is seeing how conventional science and what some call "woo-woo" seem to be converging, possibly in the not-too-distant future.

Like Arthur C. Clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." My fascination with uncovering the truth behind strange phenomena is what drew me into science in the first place - wanting to understand things that seemed unexplainable. But I never expected we'd find ourselves reconsidering some basic assumptions, wondering if reality might be less certain and even much less.. Newtonian? than we once thought

There’s that old saying, any sufficiently advanced technology is indiscernible from magic. I used to be deeply fascinated with anything “strange”, it’s why i got into science because I wanted to know the truth of the things that seemed so bizzare. But I never thought we’d end up back at square one. Where the answer just might be that some things really aren’t as certain, as familiar, or as Newtonian, as we once held onto so dearly.

You should be skeptical of %99.999 of things you see on line however. I don’t even really bother looking for info there everyone is a kookoo just about and wouldn’t know their nose from a 747 if it hit them in the head

[wooden mountain]

Hi! Do you have links for these instead? We encourage people to share links rather than files

[tight anchor]

Id have to go dig them up but yeah

[steel kayak]

But I never expected we'd find ourselves reconsidering some basic assumptions, wondering if reality might be less certain and even much less.. Newtonian? than we once thought

what do you mean?

to clarify, what evidence leads you to think reality is less certain/Newtonian, and how far back are we talking with "once"

[latent nest]

What do you think: https://youtu.be/pcEEXLOORLI?si=_2DuSGsHHc7GYxTh?

[shell path]

According to multiple overtly known public personalities who had jobs in the task force that handled that, they openly told us it was classified as a prosaic object and nothing UFO related

The whole "UFO" branding around it comes from a sequential network of ghost sources to media personalities that make the UFO claim

As to what it is exactly, that is classified, so the legitimate sources that put their names to things aren't saying exactly what it is.

[west delta]

https://mufon.com/2024/02/13/the-iraqi-jellyfish-uap-a-mufon-analysis-by-bob-spearing-director-of-international-investigations/

Metabunk also has a thread about it: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/jellyfish-ufo-from-tmzs-ufo-revolution.13304/

[heady knot]

Dare I ask of the source?

[latent nest]

The Jellyfish UAP video released by filmmaker Jeremy Corbell. What impeccable timing with the other two news drops.

The alleged 17-minute (or possible 30 minute) video of a Jellyfish UFO is seen over a joint American-Iraqi air force allegedly near a base near Lake Hibernia, according to reports, sometime during October 2018 (or possibly 2017) has only been released to the public in different snippets.

Don't know where he got it.

[west delta]

https://x.com/RealArea503/status/1880792073449931246

Area503 (@RealArea503) on X

Hey #ufotwitter It took me less than 5 minutes to identify the "egg ufo" as an Aerogel blimp.

What a joke the "investigators" at @NewsNation are.

Ban #fakenews. Boycott #ufogrifters

https://t.co/5P0TTfofot

X · Jan 19, 2025, 1:39 AM

[jade moss]

https://x.com/MickWest/status/1881007110366097912

Mick West (@MickWest) on X

There seems to be some confusion between the terms “Aerostat” and “Aerogel Blimp”

Aerostat = an airship, blimp, or balloon, especially tethered.

Aerogel Blimp = A theoretical aerostat that does not exist, made using aerogel to enclose a vacuum. It’s popular on YouTube, but it’s

X · Jan 19, 2025, 3:53 PM

[west delta]

Good call, I had never heard of aerogel blimp in particular and I'm not convinced it's an aerostat in the video given how hard it is to get an idea of scale. I have joked with friends it could have been done with a rope and a tamagochi.

[steel kayak]

can I ask what you meant by reality being less Newtonian than we once thought?

[tight anchor]

reality, or physics or whatever was traditionally seen as deterministic, the future state of a system could be reasonably predicted given initial conditions..yet that sort of Newtonian mechanics fails to explain things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_line or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect or Red/Blue shift, along with numerous other aspects we either didn’t recognize or couldn’t understand within the framework of known physical laws, yet, despite these gaps, such phenomena are undeniably real. The more we learn, the more we realize how little we truly understand, and the models of the past start to look increasingly sufficient

[steel kayak]

right, because these require quantum mechanics to explain. but you said "I never expected we'd find ourselves reconsidering some basic assumptions, wondering if reality is less Newtonian than we once thought", and you're citing quantum mechanics, which is a century old. so if this was known from before your parents were born, I assume, why is it something you never thought we'd find ourselves knowing?

just found the phrasing odd. you never thought we’d end up back at square one, but this is a discovery from long before you were born

[tight anchor]

idk what i was talking about tbh that was like a month ago lol, but the implications of what is being implicated would tumultuous to just about every understanding we thought we had of the universe

[west delta]

right... "the implications"

[wooden mountain]

[EDIT: Deleting a not-very-constructive comment and replacing it with a more constructive one]

lattslatt, I think Bread's point is a very good one. I know you said earlier that you were a scientist so that gives your comments some authority. But unless you're a particle physicist or something hyper-focused on this topic specifically, then I think it's more confusing than it is clarifying to members of our community to read opinions on this topic

[tight anchor]

I wasn't making, nor did I intend to make, any claim that requires being a particle physicist to make. My point is that the acknowledgment of these phenomena by numerous individuals in official capacities is both significant and compelling. If confirmed, these findings would challenge many long-held scientific principles and open possibilities for an unprecedented range of new scientific and technological advancements. Such a discovery would likely rank among the most transformative moments in human history, fundamentally changing our understanding of the world and our place in it.

[wooden mountain]

ok but I think Bread's point is that quantum mechanics has been around for a long time so maybe you're overstating the "implications of what's being implicated"

in any case I think that's not the point of this channel

[brisk sapphire]

UAPs making right angle turns on a dime at high speed would be non-Newtonian

[fallow compass]

CGI is non-Newtonian

[steel kayak]

I get the impression what is being alluded to is extraterrestrial activity, which I've never seen convincing evidence for. I would be interested how you'd assess the extraterrestrial nature of a UAP, how to know what to look for. what evidence could satisfy such criteria? the subject of studying extraterrestrial activity is, to what I've seen, filled with wishful thinking, and I would be interested what this "Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies" uses as evidence

I'm just a physics undergrad so I'm not that familiar with physics as I'm sure you are, but this channel from what I've skimmed uses animal bones, unexplained radio signals, and testimonials as evidence. which doesn't seem very quality controlled, let's say, I feel there must be some evidence which cannot be adequately explained without extraterrestrial origin, in order to justify the confidence that extraterrestrial activity has ever happened

the evidence is typically nonspecific to extraterrestrial origin, it is equally evidence for magic or acts of God

[wooden mountain]

For context: the mod team had a discussion way way long ago when this channel first started. I was in favour of it because 1) The X Files is maybe my favourite show ever, and 2) I thought that the server might be a space for the rational, evidence-based debunking of UFO claims

So that was the idea behind the channel and what we want it to be

[steel kayak]

I think evidence that it is extraterrestrial may require obtaining a UAP, in order to test its chemical composition, find what technology may be in it

I'm not aware of a test that could be done at range and evidence it's specifically extraterrestrial, it seems a claim unless we have one we can't find much to support the argument of

if lattslatt has ways to evidence extraterrestrial origin without acquiring such a UAP, that would be helpful to appreciate how serious these attempts at investigation are

[wooden mountain]

This is the example of the kind of work that I'd love to see in this channel:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/24/isnt-that-a-balloon-deflating-a-dod-ufo-video/

[tight anchor]

cornstarch in water is non-newtonian 🧐

[tight anchor]

i have a piece i started writing if anyone would like to colab, i havent looked at the one you linked but i will in a bit later

this is old so i havent checked for recent info in a while but i never got around to finishing it either.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-IQQKcHjiwCzwOhX5sbge0-9miaDrTmtZQVlgUIf2vY/edit?usp=sharing

[shell path]

Just to note on this, multiple former UAPTF analysts have come out to say this is in fact not unidentified and has been identified as something entirely prosaic. Those who published this and have continued it do not have access to the identification and continue to claim it is unidentified for said reason, which is ahh, a bit of an issue since the video also comes from DoD and according to DoD it is identified (eg media source entirely uses DoD sourcing but claims a contradictory conclusion despite nothing to account for not considering the DoD conclusion)

[tight anchor]

did u even read it

what i wrote.

[tight anchor]

let me save you a click

"While the footage shows an unusual object, its movements do not definitively demonstrate characteristics beyond known physics. The limited available footage constrains comprehensive analysis.Consequently, the UAP's behavior in the footage does not present clear evidence of anomalous characteristics. Additional data such as imagery of the object from a separate vantage point, radar signatures, or any other auxiliary information captured by the PTDS at the time of the event would be helpful in disseminating the explanation for the observed phenomena."

Heres some preliminary interesting figures from my nuforc db eda

[shell path]

I did, I was pointing out how it's not unidentified. Your assessment itself is pretty decent.

[shell path]

One of the issues with trying to do cross-data analysis like this is, the root source of this video is DoD. This is not unidentified to DoD, it has been identified as something prosaic. Adding things like this to databases for example, to reflect unidentified objects when it is identified, poisons the data in reflection to unidentified Xs.

[tight anchor]

I see I see

Valid point you don’t know what you don’t know or even in some cases you don’t know what we do know

[shell path]

Yeah I thought your assessment itself was pretty solid, obv not done but included things you would want to see in proper unidentified cases, google doc formatting is tricky for presenting that but yeah that side was all decent.
I try to caution the above highly though, not just towards you, because I've seen a few attempts to do stuff like this or create general databases, but the individuals take not a lot of time or effort to parse out identifications that aren't widely known or recognized, or will straight up add hoaxes and etc too.
There has to be a lot of caution taken with government sourcing also since people ahhh, don't understand the dynamics behind that sometimes.

For example, AARO has quite a few "unidentified" objects in their backlog, BUT, it's important to recognize the government has "characterizations" and "identifications". Largely what we try to do here in the public, is what the government would instead call characterizations - this is "it looks like a drone/balloon/etc". Identifications instead are analytically and scientifically robust and require gaps to be filled such as - where did it potentially come from (flight path, launch site, etc), who is the actor controlling it, what materials is it made of specifically, so on so forth. A lot of people see things in this context referenced as anything but "identified" and take that as circular confirmation of UAP, when most of it is in fact characterized.
The other big issue with government sourcing is trying to repeat assessments and a lot of people cast out govt assessments here (you didn't do this ur fine here), which for a few other complex factors alongside it are why we see things like the above continue to the uh, skewed form from media sources. Anyways though, the government has data sources and data itself we do not have, it is faulty to expect our analysis' in any regards would be more robust, as we lack the same amount and quality of data and most of the sensors to account for it.

This is very relevant with "observables" too as the specific metrics for "the observables" is based off DoDs access to DoD sensory devices and sensory aides, most of this doesn't have civilian accessible comparatives so there is no way we can even ascertain a good chunk of the same data on the features of the "observables" actually relevant to DoD. We'd likely come to distinct conclusions specifically because our data is less in quantity and quality.

[acoustic hollow]

https://vxtwitter.com/ashleighfields_/status/1884304395539735002

[shell path]

It's been, interesting watching folks freak out and say "why didnt they say this sooner"

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/dhs-fbi-faa-dod-joint-statement-ongoing-response-reported-drone-sightings

There's been a joint statement confirming exactly that, with far greater detail, since December 17th of last year (my favorite narrative starting up now is them claiming people who point this out are living in a false reality).

[jade moss]

Might be interesting read for some of you as the The Harvard National Security Journal seems to be legit : "Flying Saucers and the Ivory Dome: Congressional Oversight Concerning Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena" by Dillon Guthrie. The abstract is a bit long to post here so here's the link to the main page (and link to the 72 page pdf)
https://harvardnsj.org/2025/01/12/flying-saucers-and-the-ivory-dome-congressional-oversight-concerning-unidentified-anomalous-phenomena/

[brisk sapphire]

Since it was a research project maybe if people knew that the research would be skewed. Gives more credence to my theory they were mapping SSIDs from air, but it could have been a test of surveillance procedures. For example, searching for a target carrying a cellphone, with more granularity than triangulation with towers would provide.

[shell path]

Just to note there was some oddness with how that was reported

The link above the the joint statement is the more fuller statement

The presser we got from the white house was the new press lady paraphrasing Trumps statement about what FAA mentioned to him

There was some limited drone stuff going on but overwhelmingly it is not what people were seeing, the areas with drones and etc had those drone flight notices and everything up

[jade moss]

guess this is more suited here then in the USA-Canada section :
https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/03/fbi-ufo-jan-6-011316

[shell path]

https://x.com/invisible_nexus/status/1904335823602065646

Chase (@invisible_nexus) on X

When they tell you who they are you should listen.

Here we can see an attempt to normalize and explain away far right extremist views by people in the UFO community.

Red declares hate speech is good and sensing the direction things are going dips out. Smart.

Augustus clearly

X · Mar 25, 2025, 12:53 AM

Past few days some of the largest and most engaged UFO influencers (social media influencers - note many of these do have connections with the govt "whistleblower" network) have nosedived into "wanting to be the next hitler" and explicitly vocalizing support for fascism and racial hate

This is also the same network that has started to spread the idea that the government basically kidnaps gay, left handed children to be conditioned as "psionic operators" that telepathically travel to fight galactic wars or something.

[idle marten]

you are going to need to cite that. Because no it has not.

[thick jetty]

There's been a bit more of a discussion since the thread was started. Because I think that point was made already.

[tall raft]

Ex Russian president Dmitry Medvedev (the movie he quotes at the end is not the one you are thinking of but a Russian documentary of the same name)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcvVzXzzJZk&pp=ygUacnVzc2lhbiBwcmltZSBtaW5pc3RlciB1Zm_SBwkJYgAGCjn09Vw%3D

Barack Obama

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u1hNYs55sqs&pp=ygUKT2JhbWEgVUZPcw%3D%3D

Donald Trump

1/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWZWVEkqVS8&pp=ygUVVHJ1bXAgdWZvcyBMb2dhbiBwYXVs

2/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=49D-QhIbvBs&pp=ygUhTG9nYW4gcGF1bCB0cnVtcCBVRk9zIGluIHRoZSBuZXdz (you can start at 1:22)

Haim Eshed (Israel head of space security program for 30+ years)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6iE62jovMo

Robert O. Dean (Intelligence Analyst at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe & holds a "NATO Cosmic TS" clearance)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzCNbsKTnIM

There are more but I don't want to spam the chat. Take a look at these ones and let me know if you think they are:

a) joking
b) part of a world-scale psyop to hide black tech
c) being fed misinformation
d) lying
e) other

[river imp]

Let's not get into "you're a spy"

This is a discord about open source information and we allowed this post to happen because there was news based around this at the time

I'll close the thread if it gets people coming in hot calling each other names.

As a previous moderator said the discussion has moved on, and covered that.

[tall raft]

The initial intent behind this thread was to apply OSINT expertise to the field of UAPs not to debate over their purported existence or origins, so sorry for the digression. And the bold statement in the intro served more as an ice-breaker than anything else.

[tall raft]

Is anyone able to tell if this image of psychic Uri Geller and NASA Rocket scientist Wernher Von Braun was taken at Goddard Space Flight Centre?

[shell path]

We shouldn't really share anything using the term "Galactic Federation" - that is originated from a new age religion offshot that near entirely rests on child exploitation.

[shell path]

As for this it's possible but the grounds have changed a loooot since then so current maps and ground pics wont help. Geller did do a lot if not most of his work alongside the govt out of Goddard though so it'd be pretty reasonable on that front too.

[tall raft]

I have to say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have anything to substantiate your claims besides this twitter thread?

[shell path]

Which part? The influencers spoken of are in the sourced recording speaking about it. As for the other part, that is in reference to Jake Berber, who frequently engages with the folks in that chat.

[shell path]

https://youtu.be/t37-SKj4rtY
Here's the Berber interview where he speaks about the whole psionic thing, it's around 2:08 to around 2:10 (hour:minute)

[shell path]

Skywalker released their "Discovery Framework". This is, not a scientific framework at all but rather an rudimentary influence campaign plan. Its structure and specifics are near entirely taken from the campaign plan Nell made that was a rip of actual COIN and PSYOP campaign plans.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sDP2QTCAmBL9PhXfL7ySycFdTw0jy821/view
"The Skywatcher Discovery Framework is intended to transform the
pursuit of UAP truths into a disciplined, transparent journey from
mystery to understanding. By Level 6, what begins as an anomaly
becomes part of humanity’s worldview, whether a natural event,
advanced technology, or something else entirely. This process not only
seeks to uncover facts but also fosters a collaborative, credible
exploration of the unknown, potentially reshaping our cosmic
perspective. For researchers, policymakers, and the public, it provides
a clear, accountable path to navigate one of science’s most enduring
enigmas."
This patently seeks to modify behavior and manage perceptions, it's not about presenting scientific information. They also promote the "psionics" thing here but rebranded it "neuromeditative interaction".

[jade moss]

On the subject of the Skywalker "Discovery Framework" here is an hour long interview of Barber and Matthew Pines. Pines is of note as being quite active in the Bitcoin/crypto policy side while also being a voice of "reason" on the UAP side of things since the Grusch hearing and seems to have been quite close to Harald Malmgren this last year who's made some noteworthy comments himself on the UAP subject in the months before his death due to his illness. https://youtu.be/t5e5z1bcBgQ?t=79

[shell path]

Whoever is behind $GOVAI is running a network of bot accounts trying to fit into UAP crowds and push NWO conspiracies. These are mostly smaller accounts (sub-10k) so not posting for engagement reasons, if you have research purposes for it though let me know and I'll shoot you the list.

If you see any accounts that promote $GOVAI surrounding this though keep the flag in mind and double check claims heavily. Would appreciate it also if anyone comes across any and can shoot me the link too.

[shell path]

https://uapdisclosurefund.org/events/understanding-uap-science

One of the malign fronts managed to lobby their way to a "briefing" with Congress.

Luis Elizondo, who will be "moderating" the panel has participated, self-admittedly, in a malign influence campaign surrounding the UAP topic alongside Jay Stratton. In the past year alone also, Elizondo has contradictorily been through 6+ distinct claims that he was/wasnt director of an office (everytime he talks about it he changes his claim from leaading it, to not being part at all, to assisting it, to being a mid-level security manager not doing anything security related).

Chris Mellon, who contradictorily made statements against these topics before becoming a lobbyist and investor for low-level aerospace start-ups rivaling primes for defense contracts (coincidentally those competitor primes are the "gatekeepers" they target). Shortly after this he woul join the Elizondo-Stratton network to pick up their Govt/Mil lobbying LOE.

[tall raft]

This is live now!

[shell path]

https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOB/comments/1kcgygk/comment/mq497fk/?share_id=VE815ldNO4wjNslID2ynt&context=3

Someone was able to geolocate one of the photos Elizondo showed to Congress and showcase it was two "crop circles" and mixed with the cameras angle and the filter on it, the circles can appear elevated over one another

Breaking down some other circles of information, they of course talk about "US congress hearings confirmed" when it was just the same guys giving testimony about uncorroborated stuff they only know second hand. This is an intentional fancy speak way of trying to frame (non-existent) official recognition of their statements.

They promoted multiple false narratives, such as the ET-US Govt interaction narratives (repackaging of the old Serpo campaign that Doty, part of the same network, ran years ago), Kona Blue (a program the network promoted to DHS, that one of the network members got to propose to DHS and was quickly shut down but they used the sequence to claim a real UFO program existed at DHS), plus the false imagery claims again, etc.

Elizondo made further efforts on the attempt to reframe UAP references as being drones. This is something they've been doing since the start of this year as a way to insulate and counter balance other messaging they release about it being variously angels and demons, ETs, extrahuman conciousness, etc. Basically they, as Elizondo did exactly here, are like "Look these drones are a real threat, you said we were lying." (they were not talking about this ever and promoted literal helicopters and star wars CGI videos as "drone motherships")

Elizondo also continued to promote claims of a secret cabal within the government threatning and committing violence against whistleblowers. This has never been proven and every corroborated case of violence within this subject has been from private citizens against government officials these individuals have targeted in their own smear campaigns, or private citizens against private citizens for not having favorable beliefs to parascientific conclusions.

Gold and Gaulledet, unsurprisingly, both promoted them and their buddies companies and research projects as the key to the future.

Shellenberger is an outright disinformation actor & this isnt even his main topic, not worth covering him.

[shell path]

In a hilarious feat, Phillips, the former deputy director of AARO, has quit and/or retired. He is now having a smear campaign ran against him by the UFO bros. Which is quite ironic because Phillips was quite overtly in their defense on pretty much everything but there being a secret cabal controlling UFO information and doing crash recoveries.

While that side loves to make claims about violence, threats, and smear campaigns - this is a perfect example of where all that actually comes from. Not even 24 hours after this gentlemen put "former" into his bio, not even announcing he quit, they were pouncing on him attempting to degrade and discredit him for disagreeing with the secret cabal claims, despite freqently sourcing and promoting him as a key source when he was still in the office.

[stoic lichen]

Elizondo submitted a fake UFO photo https://www.wfxg.com/ufo-image-shown-at-us-congressional-hearing-debunked/article_59296394-31b2-541a-a078-ff47e5be02aa.html

[thick jetty]

Non-geoblocked version: https://archive.ph/WC6ss

[shell path]

If anyone remembers the "Immaculate Constellation" meme they tried to spin up, we got some more juice! Entirely outside the deceptively presented chain of evidence, and "Immaculate Constellation" being described as a control system and not a program as claimed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If5mvIFzgto&pp=ygUNbWF0dGhldyBicm93bg%3D%3D

Matthew Brown, the supposed source for this, has finally told us exactly where he found this "program" document! It was part of the documentation for Schriever Wargames. Yes, wargames. He claims this real program document was made for none other than, a wargame, not an actual thing as they've spent months claiming.
Curiously, at this same time, Grusch was an advisor for Schriever Wargames, alongside this being the early period of his participation in the (I've yet to make a fancy name) network. This is the same period he made his proposal similar to AARO, which contained proposals that the network would later publically attempt to degrade AARO for implementing.

According to Brown himself also, this 2018 document for Schiever Wargames is the only one that uses the term "Immaculate Constellation", every other claim he makes about documents does not reference immaculate constellation, nor does he reason how they're supposedly connected what so ever.

[shell path]

https://x.com/JeremyCorbell/status/1922384646899433494
More from Matthew Brown. After his entire set of claims fell on itself after admitting the one document he found was for a wargame and he misread everything else, he continues to insist everything else is real and does some more leading towards their LOE promoting UAP/ET existence as some esoteric abrahamic faith

Jeremy Kenyon Lockyer Corbell (@JeremyCorbell) on X

“You are not free. And this reality, has far more to it than you have been ALLOWED, to believe. And God is real.”

- Matthew Brown, UFO whistleblower

https://t.co/MIEqGKCgiZ

X · May 13, 2025, 8:13 PM

They of course do the weird 4th wall break here where they admit they've been let in on secrets no one else has, but it's other folks who are gatekeeping (of course, rival contracting firms).

There's also another funny nugget in here where he says this which is very much a threat in context considering he's speaking about mass leaks of classified material and extrajudicial punishments against "gatekeepers"
"I'd like to say directly to the members of our military and our intelligence community; the time is now, where you must choose, whether you honor your oath or your orders. And if you have courage, you already know the answer. But for the rest of you - lead, follow, or get out of the way. Get out of the way."

[shell path]

https://x.com/OSIRISUAP/status/1923444728911233434
This isn't released yet but going to be soon. Heavily recommended for those interested in the more political angle of the malign influence efforts surrounding this topic & where they intersect with folks like Thiel and Musk.

Thiel for example has dived into the topic pretty heavily. Not a lot of people know but Jesse Michels is basically funded as a form of media for Thiels views he's not an organic youtuber. Thiels also behind funding a network of neuro institutes and etc that frequently co-interact and host events that pull in a lot of the UFO influencer types.

O.S.I.R.I.S. (@OSIRISUAP) on X

As of 5.16.25, this sits at 48 pages.
I now have access to outlets to publish once editing is complete. This has morphed from my desire to write a brief Medium/X article into what may be a multi-part paper-series and may be published in SSRN - and potentially several other

X · May 16, 2025, 6:25 PM

[shell path]

https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/harald-malmgren-history-vs-fantasy/
"Detailed FBI files declassified in May 2025 in response to my Freedom of Information Act requests contain incontrovertible evidence that Malmgren fabricated some of his principal 2024-25 claims... the FBI files prove that Malmgren never held a security clearance from the Atomic Energy Commission, as he repeatedly claimed..."

"Malmgren was really not a "senior advisor" or any kind of advisor to any U.S. presidents, except on trade policy to Presidents Nixon and Ford. He was never an advisor or aide to President Kennedy. He was not a roving super-statesman or secret-mission ambassador, not a behind-the-scenes intergenerational power broker. He was not influential in the development of ballistic missile defense plans, nor an expert on nuclear strategy– indeed, his serious involvement in defense-related issues, as such, was fairly marginal and short-lived."

Article busts quite a lot of his claims, well sourced too

[shell path]

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5261806

[austere terrace]

https://reason.com/2025/05/09/what-the-feds-knew-about-the-new-jersey-drone-scare/

Hope no one died when the medevac helo was waved off from the site of a bad car accident because firefighters and cops were in the throes of a drone panic and misidentified passenger jets miles away.

Though we know a military pilot was injured when their jet was lased, during the "why don't we aim lasers at the drones and see how they react" phase of the panic.

[shell path]

Slight credit but don't like that they say the Biden admin didn't publicize "the evidence". There was in fact multiple distinct statements from a variety of government agencies, including a massive joint press release from the FAA, FBI, DHS, DoD and etc. The people who didn't trust it were largely the same ones actively debating clear images of the helicopters and planes as drones or UFOs (meaning aliens to them rather than actual unidentified objects). Or in some cases like CNN the literal star wars CGI video.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/dhs-fbi-faa-dod-joint-statement-ongoing-response-reported-drone-sightings

Not sure how reason came to pick it up but the original UFO crowd saw a predominate narrative re this take off after the fact that they didn't counter it or etc but they absolutely did

[austere terrace]

Before they got to that point it took them a few iterations, starting with some weak statements that were so easy to misinterpret that it seemed potentially intentional. And some of it was intentional I assume, making traditional federal agency-type statements that didn't try to imply more than they knew. But even in that statement above, which was only issued after dozens of aircraft were hit by lasers, they still talk about all the drones first. It was easy for people to read as "ok, i'm seeing drones but the government claims they're not dangerous drones". The reality was that the vast, vast majority were not drones at all.

It's definitely not clear that if they had issued stronger statements earlier that there would be any real difference. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see stories on--techniques for effective communication with a population experiencing mass panic

[shell path]

The issue with this, and it gets debated a lot, it is proper communicating as an organization. Sometimes things aren't said because it can cause issues, sometimes things are said certain ways for the same reason. A lot of these debates center on everything but actual professional communication best practices in these contexts, largely rather what people individually think works (best for them, not everyone).

As an absolute basic example. This was all founded on literal conspiracy theories. No one was referencing the drone cases at the military installations originally, they were posting and resharing photos of 100% identifiable planes and helicopters. These did not become blended until after the militaries original statement literally identifying the drone situations over their facilities as distinct, which the conspiracy theorists snagged immediately and framed as "proof" of what they were saying despite the military patently denying it.
By messaging in reference to the military installations as they did originally, they developed and unintentionally reinforced the entire conspiracy, so the very TA inducing the issues, now had it perceptively corroborated to themselves. The alternate was that they a) do not say anything at all or b) lie. B) is redundant as the TA would contradictorily take that anyway as they did, while also altering their narrative to reflect parts of the statement. A) would've been the best, as it would've prevented attributing materials that further developed and grandsized the conspiracies and false identifications, which in turn attributed to amplifying the panic and the disruptions it caused.

As for "stories on" er, there are and aren't. Media reports on this stuff all the time and entirely fails and/or intentionally miscasts how it works because it sounds cooler to audiences and sets grand misunderstandings that become grandly difficult to counteract.

On the other hand, most folks don't like reading them, but there's, kind of centuries worth of content in this regard spanning 10,000s of distinct practicioners from all cross the globe using different conceptualizations and etc.

[austere terrace]

Oh I meant specifically with respect to this event.

[shell path]

Yeah that's fair although most media won't really take up that angle since it wont get as many clicks

If you're interested in those sorts of insight especially browse LinkedIn, lot of gov/mil communication professionals share their thoughts on these things live as they happen (and in an observable way not present on other platforms).

Their biggest failure with what they did decide to message, was doing it late, when A) would've been the best option. Their statement in what it was, instead, should've been released after the drone incidents at the bases. This would've mitigated initial narrative development and spread to vulnerable TAs that could be influenced away from it. From that frame, it shouldn't have been about public reports or "correcting" the emerging false narrative at the time (WHICH WASNT REFERENCING THE BASE EVENTS), but rather about providing public information about the security risks at the base, same as press releases are made in re active shooters and etc (this would've altered how the statement was worded a lot also).

I do highly recommend the LinkedIn opinion browsing though cause that's really juicy in these contexts. And just as a more relevant example of why understanding their end is important I'll give another example.

People love to point out how the government only releases low quality UAP videos, but other footage even from the same platforms is way higher quality. Why is this? Well, there's two reasons.

A) There is no reasonable expectation (as this event proved lol) that the public would be able to discern details with the objects, that, they cannot. This could lead to an absolutely massive overflow of reporting from the public, based off misunderstandings that you have to tie up resources to correct, that in turn also inundates the analytical teams and degrades their ability to function efficiently.

B) If it's unidentified, we have no idea what it is, and maybe only guesses at its capabilities. If we have any reaasonable belief this could be an adversaries development, the adversary generally can only assume what we know about their new platform (leaving out them collecting intelligence on what we know about it and etc).
People forget that military R&D like this well, I mean, you don't make things because it's what the enemy already knows. You make things they don't know, to surpass their capability.
In turn, by releasing high quality videos, we'd expose to adversaries the exact details our analysts would see - and the adversaries, knowing the platform better than our analysts, will already know what any given piece of leakage could impact. Before we can do anything but characterize it, this allows the adversary to begin new developments to surpass our collection ability.

This, overall, in proper reflection of the term too, is called OPSEC. The entire idea of posting videos of it at all makes attempting to assess it in that context redundant, because we will give out the signatures we can collect to the adversary, which will tell the adversary exactly what to do to negate our collection capabilities.
This can also be gamed strategically to degrade collection capabilities overall, since their development cycles tend to take far longer than things like say a new drone design (there'll be a temporary point where you can have near entire securitization since you've gamed and surpassed the others collection capabilities).

[latent nest]

@shell path what about the claim that
"No anomalous drone has ever been tracked on radar once" regarding in Jersey & around the military bases?

[shell path]

Not sure where that claim came from but, this is partially correct and not

There was no cases of anything anomalous - afaik they totally did pick up some on radar though

This is where its important to note the narrative dynamics surrounding that. What people were referencing primarily was things not related to the military bases, this was integrated into the larger narrative after the government announcements and used to reframe the conversation in part (it caused "drone" to start getting used as a dogwhistle for aliens)

Also something that gets left out of these convos a lot is how govt terminology works. "Anomalous" in govt speak has actual metrics they use to assess and evaluate, to a lot of communities following this subject "Anomalous" instead means "I dont understand this" and there tends to be pretty widescale refusal to recognize distinct meanings used.

[latent nest]

Those who believe the Jersey phenomenon was aliens have been spreading this list:

https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/s/TKsSx5rPer

[latent nest]

Do you've a link where it says/proves that?

[shell path]

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/dhs-fbi-faa-dod-joint-statement-ongoing-response-reported-drone-sightings
"Having closely examined the technical data"
"We have not identified anything anomalous"
"We continue to support state and local authorities with advanced detection technology and support of law enforcement"

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/4002374/joint-staff-addresses-drones-over-new-jersey-military-installations/#:~:text=A spokesperson from the Joint,a new issue for us
" "But ... we don't know. We have not been able to locate or identify the operators or the points of origin."
(when they reference "points of origin" like this, they're referencing the ability largely to use things like radar to see it, but be unable to track where it was launched from).

https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/4008663/pentagon-press-secretary-maj-gen-pat-ryder-holds-a-press-briefing/
"So, active and passive detection, different methods to be able to detect drones using different capabilities, right? So, passive measures would essentially be it just has the ability to receive signals without emitting signals, whereas active would be like radar. I bounce the signal off, and it bounces back, right? And then separate from that would be counter UAS capabilities. Things like the — let me make sure I get the name right here, like Drone Busters which essentially emits a signal which is able to interrupt the signal on the drone which can affect its flight."

https://www.robinradar.com/news-events/iris-joins-faa-fight-against-rogue-drones-in-extensive-detection-trials-in-new-jersey
This is a contracting team that has radars made for detecting drones, we dunno their full breadth of involvement but they did get brought in to help do more monitoring

https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2024/12/14/background-press-call-on-the-ongoing-response-to-reported-drone-sightings/
"We have visual observation teams deployed at various locations throughout the state of New Jersey, to include our military installations, conducting video radar analysis, alongside with our partners, which have determined all large fixed-wing reported sightings have been manned aircraft." - ref from FBI Newark

"DHS also sent New Jersey State Police advanced camera and radar equipment directly out of our R&D pipeline." "This kit is drone-specific radar that also cues a highly capable EO/IR, or electro-optical infrared camera system. If the radar detects a drone, the camera will be able to identify and track it. This is extremely helpful for drones without a standard radio frequency signal. The imagery can also help determine the type of drone and whether there is a payload, for example." - this is referencing Robin Radar above

https://police.boston.gov/2024/12/15/two-suspects-arrested-following-hazardous-drone-operation-on-long-island/ - There was also these guys arrested for trying to add to the panic by flying drones around airports (ironically no videos/pic of their drone was posted, but from that same night videos of planes at the airport were misidentified as drones 😭). They initially spotted it on radar and presumably was a case where they were able to use the radar to roughly orient the point of origin.

https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/dhs-briefing-details-select-drone-sightings-in-new-jersey-highlights-potential-misidentifications-among-5000-reports/ - FOIAd briefing docus, they don't explicitly reference radar but it's pretty evident it was used in their assessments.

[austere terrace]

I haven't seen any statement that any suspected drones in NJ were observed by any means other than eyeballs. I have seen statements that once they brought in the counter-drone sensors in sensitive areas they didn't pick up any drones.

Specifically, the statement from the Picatinny Arsenal Police Dept. just says that drones were "confirmed" when they were "visibly witnessed", starting back in the middle of November.

[shell path]

Ah I thought you meant overall usage during the set of events not just the earlier ones

Yeah as far as I'm aware all the actual initial observances at the bases were visual

Their statements very much do seem to reflect they actively used radar to identify some drones though (but after the actual base incidents) as was the case with the airport where they narrowed its potential launch point using radar tech. Those all seem to have been used to clarify reports though not the first place its seen.

[shell path]

Not sure if I can post since it's a leak although one of BAASS major program reports got leaked. Has some juicy details that provides insight into some unknowns, including some ironic ones (this has all been covered in media reporting on it, breaking down key pieces)

BAASS appears to have owned an underground hanger to store materials that descriptively overlaps with the claimed underground hanger housing some UAP aircraft (this would join the bucket of things they claimed existed that, were in fact, things they should've well known the answer too due to being involved in it)

The report has a few sections where they actually speak down on some more conspiracized elements we now see the ufobro network promote. Such as "BAASS
concluded that Picthall is consumed with the UFO Phenomena, so consumed that he believes the "aliens" transform themselves into light sources, moving vehicles, red beacons on top of towers and even commercial airliners with afterburners."

They identify several cases where not the government, but BAASS personnel deceptively attended paranormal events as "private persons" to, in BAASS eyes, fulfill DoD RFIs as part of this project. This included up too photographing other attendees for, unknown reasons. Per BAASS themselves, rather than spooky UFOs, all the "incidents" during these events they were able to assess as known prosaic objects.
In one incident, while actively supporting the external groups UFO beliefs, they privately concluded the lights in the sky were none other than Bigelowes own satellites.

The report speaks about the "Tic-tac" event, and makes claims that contradict related actors claims. Too many to specifically break down, but one interesting point is the entire lack of claims about unknown individuals showing up and taking original copies of data. Instead according to BAASS, we have the ships staff wearing tinfoil hats as a meme and sharing jokes about it.

We learn much about how BAASS broke down operations internally, although of key focus are "Project Cooperation" (sought to influence DIA executive staff into expanding their support to BAASS), "Project Campus" (sought to "stimulate, motivate, and encourage the senior levels of the academic community in the United States..."). Both of these would seem to overlap with the COIN-style campaign plan Karl Nell presented publically dating these events and aims as part of their campaign.

^^ This is a flat out issue. They made use of government funds, in itself, to deceptively influence academia and the government itself. Per their own program documents they leveraged government funds to run a malign influence campaign.

[shell path]

Ending that off, in the specific documentary sections for Project Cooperation and Project Campus, we have them self-listing multiple events where they deceptively interacted with the government to house and advance private interests, while explicitly deceiving the government and public.
This even includes their own self-deception, such as a case where Puthoff seemingly committed espionage at LANL, got the organization blacklisted from interacting with LANL, and they received old project grudge documents (per BAASS this is a "discrepancy" in what was claimed, which is true, but the discrepancy is from Puthoff himself). These files were, per BAASS, illicitly retained by a LANL employee abusing access to filing systems in pursuit of private UAP interest.
^This exact event would join the rank of events they now talk about as being "denied access" too, despite BAASS claiming the opposite in that they were granted access, but discrepancies were present with the materials they obtained. They also claimed "the government" in the event, while BAASS self-claims it was a private individual abusing access to filing systems.

As for the more direct influence operation, I will be breaking that down in a proper article of its own.

[thick jetty]

Hello! You are allowed to link to media covering leaks, just not to the leak itself. We prefe all information being sourced.

[shell path]

Yeah just waiting for more formal media to report on it, it busts worlds of conspiracies the past few years so I have high doubts most of the outlets will end up running a story on it (they ran the guys who promoted the BS for years). RN a lot of the coverage is researchers on twitter but direct sharing the content.

Not sure if we can get clearance for it but may be worth considering allow direct posting since, per the document itself, they openly admit to abusing government funding to for example, run an influence operation attempting to get government personnel to leak them classified information, that they later used in other communication efforts leveraging proxy-influencers to promote UFO claims through controlled discourse (eg they explicitly state do not allow debates about evidence).

Its restriction status is also not restricted by the government, rather just internal company classifications

[teal furnace]

Pretty wild reporting from WSJ https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/ufo-us-disinformation-45376f7e

Preview not unfurling but here’s the gist

[thick jetty]

Also paywalled, but I see an archived version: https://archive.ph/wvCDz

[shell path]

Uno momento have a gift link

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/ufo-us-disinformation-45376f7e?st=cy4pzQ&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Do grandly dislike how Joel and Aruna framed this but most of the details are accurate

Note in their article, they reference 2 events with 2 background occurances

1. They reference the old Salas incident, and identify that he potentially saw experimental tech he did not have a NTK for, so, they didn't tell him. It's important to note, even as per the article, the internal security measures here targeted Salas, not the public. Salas made a personal decision to tell the public conspiracy theories he created over the years based off that.

2. The other case, with Yankee Blue, they patently identify as a hazing ritual that solely targeted new management across certain programs. Further, these have seemingly never reached the public, although they don't name specifics so it may have with someone but we dunno. This, much like the above, contains absolutely 0 cases of any official Pentagon activity leveraging disinformation, nor does it contain any materials indicating it being targeted to the public.

This is part of why I try to correct people on govt term usage so much. Even in cases of an 'official' activity like the background to Salas incident, that is a mixed practice (blends CI, deception, and OPSEC) called Deception in Support of Operations Security. Deception Activities are not mass communication like PSYOP, there is no 'target audience', and you're never targeting the public. You can channel through the public to reach decision makers, but not the case with any of this nor has anyone ever indicated it. DISO, unlike other forms of Deception Activities, targets 'sensors and sensory aides' that collect and analyze intelligence (sensory aides would include human sources just ambigious mil speak) rather than specific human targets (say as MILDEC may target one or a small set of adversary military commanders, or a strategic political deception operation targeting national leadership, etc).

Removed from that, they also entirely fail to reference the countless events and individuals that have been well covered and reported as actually attributing to the overall 'myth' - whereas the two incidents they reference play either no or very little role to the overall lore if you will.
Richard Doty as an example, once was assigned to AFOSI and participated in the infamous Bennewitz incident where they did feed disinformation to a UFO researcher. Note - Bennewitz was committing espionage (illegally breaching radio networks and setting up cameras to monitor test sites) and was releasing it at events that had Soviet intelligence monitoring it for exactly those reasons. In this case, and going to the above right, he wasn't targeted to 'disinform the UFO community' or anything. He was actually committing espionage so they fed him BS to prevent the Soviets from obtaining actual radio transmissions and test footage.

Now, there's the fun and sad part. All the other stuff that happened to Bennewitz, Doty did personally, and it got him shunted to a desk job at AFOSI where he made up more stories to get attention and got fired shortly after.

Doty is also the exact individual quite a significant amount of currently held UFO lore roots with. For example, he openly identifies he did this (with his own conspiratorial twist), and is the primary actor behind why there are so many claims about things like 'men in black' and government disinformation.
Further, the GOVT-ET interaction claims all root with Doty's personal actions in that operation targeting Bennewitz, where some of what they faked was radio transmissions and events with "ETs". He then further expanded upon this after the fact with other events such as the Serpo disinformation campaign, which created the term "EBE" we see in the leaked BAASS documents (where Doty was brought in as a contractor on the word of Puthoff) and gave modern continuity to the Govt-ET interaction stuff.

There's earlier stuff in his record too like the Holloman base incident and etc, but those were all spearheaded by extragovernmental networks of folks exploiting their positions. That earlier era contains the 'core' of the network I speak about with individuals, overall, like Subbletine, Michael Aquino (yes the satanist who interacted with ONA and neo nazi networks in west europe). Hal Puthoff, Kit Green, etc. It's unfortunately all more connected than is spoken of, and there's about 3 distinct eras where they pretty much follow the same exact sequence that Kit Green has even explained word-for-word in 'theory'. Which we now have actual planning documents even from the network across 2 of these eras - the bridge era (early 2000s with BAASS and their Projects Forum, Campus, and Cooperation) and the current with Elizondo and co (ref Karl Nells campaign plan from last year).

[tall raft]

I can live with this explanation for this case, although I find it highly irresponsable if not dangerous to test deactivation of nuclear missiles in multiple bases without briefing of security staff prior.

Also, the explanation lacks some details, the day of the event, the UFO was reported to hover "outside the front gate". A guard got injured and evacuated by helicopter upon getting close to it.
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vR9010R4v734h_0e91ktt3pnNRhwOtOq2K11u1kv2j-0VCg5zsEuYMpFk0BqIfpe8JBVambifVkky2W/pub)

[tall raft]

In USSR, similar event happened in 4th October 1982 but this time it was activation of missiles with giant disk hovering on top, as reported here :

In English (ABC):
https://youtu.be/6wDLEAsXAv0?si=Ri2n_yAu2X4wgLud&t=258

In Russian (Zhizn)
https://web.archive.org/web/20110303201642/https://zhizn.ru/articles/show/192

[shell path]

In cases of actual counterintelligence and opsec practices, security staff have 0 need to know about test data or specific test times. Telling them would open new lines of security risks and potentially new vulnerabilities to program information, largely to assauge potential public interest should it ever leak (the intent being to prevent the leaks, and if it does leak, to not leak the actual information).

The issue here would be individuals like Salas receiving planted information, which is still restricted to note, then leaking it to the public - except he conspiracized the information instead of just presenting the planted material too. There's a bunch of factors that go into people being charged or not so not a major point either that he wasn't charged.

Salas is also an exact example of why those measures are ran internally, he represents a non-malicious insider threat. He literally leaked information about a restricted project, there is no reasonable expectation he would not have leaked it if he had the real information instead - it just would've been real information that leaked with his conspiracizing. Not a very strong security practice to 'correct' leaks by adding more people to the NTK list - this increases the amount of potential lines it could leak from. It really just retroactively acts here to protect our own interest in ascertaining information we shouldn't have anyways, it was leaked.

[shell path]

There wasn't much faith in realiity anyways, but Skywatch has officially fallen.

https://x.com/UAPWatchers/status/1931692327208100096

Skywatch Signal (@UAPWatchers)

🧵 Matthew Brown, AI, and the Return of Enochian Magic
/1
What if the Pentagon wasn’t just hiding UFOs
…but was using ancient occult rituals to talk to whatever's flying them?
Let’s unpack what whistleblower Matthew Brown recently posted to Elon Musk. It's biblical, magical,

X · Jun 8, 2025, 12:38 PM

Here they promote the claims that the government is using "Enochian Magic" and "ancient occult rituals" to interact with ETs and UFOs.

Ironically, this enters the bucket of something really just these guys do. They love the "enochian language" thing and are the only people who promote it this way, and the whole idea of esotericism around it literally comes from these guys and the uh, cream of the crop conspiracists. This is the type of stuff you see groups like ONA do, just instead here, it's Enochian Magic and gay men that're left-handed, some of the "Telepathy Tapes" people are also part of this group (eg Area52 is in attendance with the presenters a lot)

[shell path]

Not going to post the photo for obvious reasons but Luis Elizondo just had some of his texts about an "alien body" leaked that he was spreading around to journalists and potential PR reps for their network.

It's an actual dead child, not an alien. Not really posting this from the veracity angle since everything Elizondo releases gets called out as bunk within 24hrs, but it uh, it very much goes to show the extra, absolutely disgusting, lengths this private network goes too, to further these theories.

[jade moss]

there seems to be a bit of context here, even if Lue still seems to overshare non vetted media : https://xcancel.com/RonJames2040436/status/1932972910807036405

[shell path]

To note the claim Lue was sharing it around isnt in re Rob (not in this post but he has another how he explained he got it)

There's a lady who mentioned it in a live, Ali Clarke, which is what presumably caused Ron to post it. She mentioned being part of that crowd and getting it from Elizondo directly, and Ron posted it err, idk how many hours later but was the day after that live

Lue intentionally shares non-vetted media. well covered elsewhere but nearly everything he shares is false and he conicidentally makes up stories about it. like the chandalier he insisted was from a friend who worked at the georgian embassy, but in reality it was copy & pasted off a UFO conspiracy facebook page.

I think Ron explaining how he got it is legit but Lue and co are playing the same games with it we've seen their network play before. In fact he's behaving the exact same with it as Doty and some others use to do with "alien autopsy" photos that continously got debunked after they came out of the closed networks they were spreading it around. Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington actually speaks to multiple occurances of this from them.

[shell path]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1emrWM1WdoVmTw5402i3MnkOCyxMxzL9SzHLFcA_sIxM/edit?gid=0#gid=0

Not mine but research compilation wrt UFO influencer Tupacabra and a crypto market manipulation scheme he participated in

[shell path]

As another example of how dangerous these topics can be as a social influence. Ashton Forbes has now joined the ranks of Coulthart and his followers calling for the public executions of government officials for "covering up" these matters and manipulating the public through some new world order trying to control technological change.

The thing is, this works with a lot of the vulnerable audiences that were not taken in by things like QAnon because of political polarization and ingroup dynamics. We continously see the influencers here backed by major PR spend and the same network etch towards these ideas of classing folks such as those with autism or gay men as part of the cabal, these are also the same people who know all the "whistleblowers" and get paid to run their media by people like Nick Gold (who also funded and ran media for QAnon-UAP crossover platforms like Project Chameleon). All of these are increasingly following radicalization pathways that are beginning to overtly promote violent acts to their audiences.

This is happening concurrently with Thiels introduction to the network and primarily being promoted by those in the network closer to his end than the others. It's also happening alongside Thiels campaign to privitize the IC, which sees cross-interaction here through his associates that're promoting claims that the US Govt is part of this secret cabal and it's all the IC behind everything, so they need to be fired and replaced with coincidentally a bunch of thiel capital and palantir employees/former employees.

[shell path]

According to Burlinson, the crew have briefed Trump on "Nordic and Gray Aliens" - both framed from the context of narrative creations from none other than well, this social network itself, intermixing Grusch and Berbers claiims alongside Doty's old claims.

"That the Nordic aliens are like a few 1000 years more advanced than we are"
"Whatevers sending the grays is extremely advanced, like 1000s of 1000s more years advanced than us"
"They have been experimenting cross-breeding with humans"

Creations of Dotys Project Serpo campaign

"The grays is psionic"

Creations of the Berber/Coulthart/Grusch network and their recent campaigns

And yes we now have a congressmen overtly trying to influence the public and the president that "nordic" and "gray" aliens are threat actors to humanity. He did mention being skeptical about it (he didnt do the brief it was others) but aaah promoting that to the public at all is very lol.

[jade moss]

for those wondering about the context of Owls post here is the youtube video of the twitter space where all of this is discussed. https://www.youtube.com/live/MP_J8lgb6xk

[shell path]

Thanks I was waiting for someone else to reupload don't like boosting rpk's engagement

Actually surprised no one has yet people usually reupload his lives p quick

Just a personal note also I wouldn't promote RPK directly. He networks with rabid racists, including LilPopTart who openly called for the extermination of multiple racial and ethnic groups mid-UFO live crashout (and later went on to do the "I dont agree with what he said but we should allow everyone a platform" bs). He's also part of the "UFO Hate Group" that conducts coordinated harassment campaigns.

In re the UFOhategroup thing RPK within the past 3-4 months has posted about it for reputational reasons but was well tagged as part of the group, or at least very friendly and interactive with them.

They may have had some internal falling out as RPK has posted about wanting and trying to "help them" but he was/became hated around the time he started "calling them out"

Aaand that group is also another example of why these subjects are dangerous
https://tannerfboyle.substack.com/p/christopher-bledsoe-and-the-ufo-cult
Here's a good article that covers all the elements of it, the kid who killed his parents here, is part of that group. He event spam-sent emails w/ a video of his act out to the private inboxes of a bunch of prominent UFO influencers he interacted with.

https://x.com/likeitmatters3/status/1688869758958215168
Here's a good thread too that covers the dynamics of part of that group. In fact, interestingly, Moran and some other specifiic figures mentioned here (not Gray) behave pretty similarly to how ONA does with opfers and culling. It's not mentioned to that form in the thread here but sequentially they're doing basically the same thing, finding these vulnerable folks then slowly feeding up radicalizing material over time, until cases like Grays where he went on to murder his parents.

[latent nest]

So your hypothesis is that this is all to privatize the intelligence community for Thiel?

[shell path]

No just part of Thiel and his crowds interest (key: part, not all)

They're a relatively small chunk of the overall pie but the audience following their work is growing

They've only been around it for like 2-3 years now? Not even very long in the grand scheme of it all.

Totally aside from any of the UFO stuff, Thiel has been trying to privitize elements of the IC forever. Palantir gets the most attention but he's got his hands all over in that regard. We can see his associates within the UFO space promote towards that angle all the time ala pumping claims all the UFO stories are government disinformation and coincidentally call for the wider IC to be discredited or have things shift privately due too it.

Think I linked it before but this is a good report that covers some of Thiel and his social networks interaction with the broader one here https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5261806

[shell path]

@latent nest Got the notif on my phone so responding anyways not sure if you were reformulating the question or etc -

Getting down into in-the-weed specifics not too sure. I think they're overall different elements of his whole personal ideology thing though, I don't exactly favor how "dark enlightenmen" has been reported on mostly but it's aligned to that. The other active area we see his folks in this network outside the media regard, there's a few conciousness companies that're owned by or invested in by Thiel Capital that've come into the space recently and brought together panels to discuss things and etc with the usual suspects. Thiel himself and some of his associates talk about transhumanistic stuff sometimes although huge gap area of info so too little to say that is why they're involved on that end.

They end up intersecting too eg Weinstein (Thiel Capital) and Michels (also Thiel Capital - interviews Weinstein and other Thiel connected folks all the time) talk about the transhumanistic stuff too, sometimes alongside the UFO subjects sometimes not.

Eric Weinstein has also been one of the very active individuals in Thiels personal camp behind degrading Dept of Ed, iirc he was one of the early proponents of actually outright disbanding DoEd.
Within his UFO network interactions, he's also called out Palantir and etc corporate competitors as "gatekeepers" behinid the secret tech. I think he's just jumping in on that though cause he sees it work for the others.

^^That's something we see with these types all the time that gets ignored unfortunately, it's the same with Lockheed Martin and Elizondo and Davis and co all claiming LM has secret tech, they are talking about a piece of CIA technology that Elizondo described BAASS/AAWSAP attempting to literally steal from LM and hide from the CIA. Coincidentally they're nearly always actively contracting with corporate competitors to the companies they name as gatekeepers. As has been the same with Mellon, Travis Taylor, and John Stratton who all went to work for Radiance Technologies and Karl Nell with StarDustX Materials, etc.

[latent nest]

What do you think of the Buga sphere?

[shell path]

Any specific Qs? I don't have any rooted opinions on it really

[latent nest]

Well the obvious, is there something so anomalous about it such that it could be some UFO type thing or is there some more mundane story behind it?

[shell path]

I'd say we lack any discernable data to class it as such, but there's also nothing to definitively say what

In analytical speak this is why DoD for example has characterizations vs identifications

We could characterize this as likely prosaic, although we lack any further information about it to come to an analytical identification (where did it come from, who launched it, what's it made out of, etc)

[latent nest]

@persuasiveowl Do you write about this stuff somewhere?

[stoic lichen]

Eric Weinstein pretends he's invented new physics, too. I find it funny that anyone takes him seriously

[fallow compass]

Yeah, Professor Dave explained him already.

[fallow compass]

Newest UFO debunk episode from Corridor Crew just dropped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeCFwMuh0a4

[tall raft]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEIPAN

Would you be interested to have set up a call to learn more on their methodology for report collection and analysis? (french UAP study group, working closely with CNES since the 60s).

[west delta]

I'm not sure what you mean by "set up a call" but they have a page in english explaining the process here: https://www.cnes-geipan.fr/en/node/58788

[tall raft]

I know people within, I think its more interactive if someone directly involved in the group presents the methodology for subsequent Q&A etc.

[drifting walrus]

few days ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cj07rg34l62o

[jade moss]

https://x.com/uncertainvector/status/1966151472451928176?s=46

Ryan Graves (@uncertainvector)

After further review, it’s conceivable the video is of a prosaic target struck by a missile, chunks broke off, stabilized in the airstream, and began a parabolic descent that is generally aligned with the camera angle, making the target aspect change nearly imperceptible as it

X · Sep 11, 2025, 2:46 PM

[austere terrace]

https://youtu.be/cTedmssoj24?si=HtUjHGBEVf09pcTU

[tall raft]

With so many people talking about the "extraordinary evidence" but never defining it properly, I was curious to get your subjective opinions in the above poll, you can choose multiple options.

Would have added a few options (remains of non-human squeletons, Space HD videos from reliable source, all of the above, other, nothing I can think of)

[mild mirage]

I like polls. Must. Click. Poll. 🤤

[wary mirage]

https://tubitv.com/movies/100030967/the-lost-century-and-how-to-reclaim-it https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/uap-explanation-us-anti-gravity-secret-project.43406/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#Space_travel_and_gravitational_shielding

[tight anchor]

Surprising result

[umbral trail]

Haven't been keeping close tabs on UAP/UFO stuff since most of the stuff seems unconvincing to me, and this video only strengthens my prior of "this is all explainable phenomena, we just have bad cameras/cameramen": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64zlyzojpPM

[tall raft]

https://youtu.be/4H51UT2gs2g?si=xg42tCISf9nFx0YU

What about credible first-hand close-encounters witness accounts?

[wooden mountain]

"Credible" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there 😅

Ask yourself this. What's more likely?

1. An intergalactic race of hyper-intelligent alien beings with technology so far advanced beyond anything that we could imagine has mastered interstellar travel, and its visits to Earth have largely avoided detection or are otherwise being kept secret in what would be the most consequential and well-executed conspiracy theory in the history of humanity, or

2. People are lying/misremebering when they talk about their experiences with aliens

[wary mirage]

even with misremember, its definition makes it fairly difficult to square away something that is highly unlikely with an observation of an earth-based craft

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misremember

for example, one can say they saw what looked like a flying saucer, but they most likely didn't see it arrive from outerspace.

[tall raft]

Sure thing! Occam's razor applies.

Just some thoughts; NASA finding hints of life on Mars and 6,000 discovered exoplanets, we must remain cautious before making assumptions but if these are confirmed, it kind of add weights to the panspermia hypothesis

Some people may lie or have false memories for sure, but medical conditions associated with UAPs are not made-up, as seen in the declassified document above. John Burrough for instance obtained a disability veteran pension following exposure to radiations after a UAP encounter.

Now that doesnt prove these are alien crafts. But at best black programs 50 years ahead in terms of tech.

[steel kayak]

not really no. panspermia is the hypothesis that life emerged largely outside the planets they reside upon, such as the Earth, and that life spreads across the universe largely by debris from the areas where it exists reaching new environments for life to proliferate among

this is a fringe theory and finding life on Mars provides basically no evidence of it unless we could somehow prove life on Earth and Mars were descended from one another. we currently have no evidence that Earth life originated from space that I'm aware of, and panspermia doesn't resolve any questions about life on Earth, it merely adds a step where it started somewhere else then arrived here by a process we haven't a model for. as you said, Occam's razor applies, and if we apply it it seems bizarre to presume that finding life on more planets than Earth is evidence life was spread between those planets rather than it simply emerging separately by abiogenesis

[steel kayak]

I have not read your document above but at the face of the claim, John Burrough being paid a disability pension for a supposed encounter with a UAP is not evidence of the existence of advanced technology hidden from society. it is evidence that John Burrough is disabled and successfully claimed a disability pension, nothing more. we've no idea how he became disabled, I doubt this is some peer reviewed study of what happened to his body with corroborating evidence of the inciting event taking place as claimed

[tall raft]

If life emerged independently on 2 planets from the same solar system, with different size, structure & distance to star, it's pretty much a given that life exists/existed everywhere in the universe at some point, dont you think?

I was giving some slack to the theory that life was rare/unique with panspermia's hypothesis

[steel kayak]

why would size necessarily matter? only thing tangentially relevant to size for life is I suppose surface gravity, which also depends on things like density of the body, if it's largely metal or rock or ice, etc. and yes if we found conclusive evidence of life on Mars it would heavily suggest that life is far more common in the universe than we may currently expect - but panspermia is a theory not hewn out by merely finding life is common. life being common in different environments, even neighbouring bodies, does not mean debris like asteroids from one brought it to the other. I just want to temper the leap from finding evidence life is more common to inferring how it got there, which we wouldn't have evidence for merely by finding life on Mars

[tall raft]

According to the doc, they were not able to access his classified medical records but these elements were used as evidences:

• An investigation by Defence Intelligence, part of the MOD, that reported how radiation
levels at Rendlesham at the time of the encounter were “significantly higher” than
normal background levels.
• A cold-case review by the Defence Radiological Protection Service in 1994 that
determined that these readings were seven to 10 times higher than normal.
• An extract from the then classified
Project Condign report
, a secret review of UFOs for
Defence Intelligence between 1997 and 2000. Rendlesham is described as an event
where it “
might be postulated that several observers were probably exposed to
Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) radiation”

[steel kayak]

right so all we know is he claims he saw something and was exposed to high levels of radiation. I'm not sure how this is even remotely evidence for black programs 50 years ahead in tech

[jade moss]

putting this here rather then the #usa-canada section as even tho his background seems legit a linkedin post mostly spread by UFO communities might be out of place there, but he is making claims directly about the limitation being applied to US defense well beyond just "UFOs": "[...]Following are my allegations:
· A security control system is supplanting the direction and authority of the US Space Force and USSPACECOM (high confidence).
· There is direct and unauthorized interference of the Space Domain Awareness mission in violation of explicit, official policy (high confidence).
· The system has demonstrated the potential to interfere with USNORTHCOM’s protection of the United States. Those attempting to highlight the critical issue were subject to accusations of being “problematic” and not following protocols. Attempts to bring forward the critical issue to leadership were obstructed (high confidence).
· Intelligence Community insights into Russian and Chinese on-orbit activities have been hampered by the security system (high confidence).
· Unpublished security rules are being enforced. Guardians have been indicted and removed from duty, threatened with a court martial, yet not provided an opportunity to provide their perspective. All the while, their chain of command was never informed of the nature of the wrongdoing. This was accompanied by an investigative report with many “factual inaccuracies” (high confidence).
· Funds have been misappropriated (medium confidence).
· There is a connection to Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) activities (medium confidence).[...]" source : https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7378395514461093888/

[tall raft]

00:07 - Dylan Borland discusses his UFO-related experiences and classified information.
02:22 - Dylan Borland reveals the impact of legacy UFO programs on co-workers.
06:19 - Legacy UFO programs create barriers for government representatives discussing sensitive topics.
08:09 - Whistleblowers reveal tactics used to silence information on UFO programs.
11:56 - Individuals involved in legacy UFO programs face significant danger and isolation.
13:44 - Government officials hold classified knowledge but remain silent due to potential threats.
17:08 - Dylan Borland recounts losing security clearance after leaving BAE Systems.
18:48 - Dylan discusses a suspicious car accident connected to potential foul play.
22:01 - Discrediting tactics used against credible whistleblowers remain consistent over time.
23:39 - Whistleblowers face severe discrediting tactics post-employment.
27:11 - Dylan discusses psychological manipulation linked to VA and CIA programs.
28:46 - Dylan connects UAP experiences with military psychological evaluations.
32:01 - Dylan discusses a phone call that led to his clearance reinstatement.
33:34 - Dylan Borland discusses his involvement in legacy UFO programs and the rise of whistleblower activity.
37:06 - Dylan discusses motivations and challenges within the UP task force and Arrow.
38:45 - Dylan Borland reveals concerns over false information in UFO discussions.
42:25 - Dylan Borland emphasizes the urgency of whistleblowing on UFO programs.
44:06 - Dylan reveals his concerns about legacy UFO program interactions.

47:29 - Concerns about Arrow's representation of UFO issues raised during congressional discussions.
49:18 - Concerns about sharing sensitive information with government agencies.
52:53 - Dylan Borland discusses his readiness to testify about UAP and legacy programs.
54:35 - Discussion on whistleblowers in legacy UFO programs and the challenges they face.
57:43 - The IG process was disappointing and felt like an information-seeking mission.
59:16 - Legacy UFO programs assess potential whistleblower threats.
1:02:42 - Dylan discusses the challenges of filing DOSPs amidst legal fears.
1:04:17 - Whistleblowers face financial struggles despite promises of support and protections.
1:07:19 - Insider shares experiences of retaliation and surveillance in UFO program complaints.
1:08:57 - Whistleblower shares struggles and frustrations with UAP investigations.
1:12:21 - Dylan Borland advocates for whistleblowers to expose truth despite personal risk.
1:17:30 - Exploring the connections between ancient beliefs and modern extraterrestrial phenomena.
1:19:35 - Public involvement is crucial for UFO disclosure and understanding its complexities.
1:23:02 - Discussion on the existence and implications of UFOs and government transparency.
1:24:44 - International cooperation is crucial for understanding advanced UFO technologies.
1:28:10 - Dylan expresses desire for personal retreat amid ongoing UFO disclosure frustrations.
1:29:45 - Support and protections are vital for whistleblowers on UAP information.
1:33:14 - Dylan Borland emphasizes the importance of seeking support for sharing personal experiences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U2u43Vdt_g

[river imp]

Please don't upload files directly to the server, it's a security risk

If there's a URL where people can go to download replace them with that

[wooden mountain]

Hey! I'm deleting these links out of a concern for security. Like Sarah said, we don't let people share files in the server, and the link that you shared takes you to the files, so I'm deleting them

[jade moss]

https://xcancel.com/DrBeaVillarroel/status/1980253179817464108

[cerulean summit]

Here is the actual article https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1538-3873/ae0afe

And the other one https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-21620-3

[jade moss]

and interesting discussion on Metabunk on this topic : https://www.metabunk.org/threads/transients-in-the-palomar-observatory-sky-survey.14362/

[languid saddle]

It is. https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasas-asteroid-bennu-sample-reveals-mix-of-lifes-ingredients/