Nord Stream Pipeline

[elfin cradle]

It is only speculated that the Swedish police took and cut a strip from the ends of one pipe. As there isnt any signs of a cutting charges anywhere.

[serene grove]

what does this picture show?

(I have my own interpretation but it's like an open-ended thing)

[elfin cradle]

That is the allegedly part that looks like someone cut a sample from the pipe with a hydralic tool.

Any pipe cutting charges would not been detectable on the seismographs.

[serene grove]

I think the seismographs could have picked up a whole lot of gas escaping, it's a very energetic event

I came into it saying like, there's no way the gas in the pipes contributed to the seimic signature

but that seems like a major component of it from talking to the folks in here

[vocal violet]

Explain how a seismometer would pick gas escaping

[serene grove]

I mean someone posted a whole report on this, let me go find it

[inner sandal]

Rupturing a pipe would cause a sudden release of gas pressurised at 100 atmospheres or more. It would be a violent event, probably thrusting
the pipeline sideways or upwards and possibly causing further breaks.

[vocal violet]

Yes, I can understand that perfectly, I misunderstood it as some gas leak

[inner sandal]

The WSJ article appears to solve the question of how the Andromeda could carry such a large quantity of explosives. The likely answer is that it carried enough to attack NS1, then picked up more explosive from Polish waters for NS2. This suggests the Andromeda then went to the southern site to sabotage NS2. The NS2 explosion at the northern site is still unexplained.

[vocal violet]

That would logically imply that the Andromeda would have potentially been seen in a Polish harbour or the loading of the explosives been on the vessel which transported it to the Andromeda

But then why transfer in open seas the explosives instead of just using that second boat?

[inner sandal]

Perhaps worth noting that the original (leaked) plan only mentioned NS1. Dod the group get further instructions while at Christianso? WSJ sources don't know whether the boat landed in Poland or met another boat for the transfer. Another option might be to hide the explosives in shallow water, to be picked up by Andromeda.

A seismologist told me; “The influence of the pressurised gas is an important consideration. The explosive force (or TNT equivalent) that we state should not be interpreted as a definitive detonation charge size … the total energy released will include the degassing and depressurisation from the pipeline.” https://medium.com/@brian-whit/nord-stream-attack-seismologists-puzzle-over-explosions-3600d2883180

[elfin cradle]

The total energy released has nothing to do with the seismographic signatures of the explosions. That is something over a longer period, not milliseconds. Its the initial extremally short pulse that makes us sure that it was hundres of kg of explosives. See CTBTO materials and sesmic detection of nuclear explosion studies (and detonations overall).

[vocal violet]

Is there any further source that you can provide so we can dig in deeper? I'm not questioning you, I just want to understand this better

[elfin cradle]

I just said what you need to search to find out.

But this science has been confirmed since the 60s. That is why we can very accurately know force of explosives from the seismographic shockwaves.

[eager moss]

I posted some preliminary calculations a few months ago on the gas expansion during rapid release. For an internal pressure of ~165bar (the 'settle out' pressure) there would be an almost immediate expansion of about 20 times the volume into a pressure of 8bar (water depth ~80 metres); for an internal pressure of ~100bar it would be about 12 times. This expansion would be a violent force and could likely move the pipeline so that a seismograph might detect the pipeline landing back onto the seabed. (Note that it was a very basic calculation)

[elfin cradle]

Would that have happen in less than 1 second tho?

[vocal violet]

I know that you can tell explosions about seismographs, I precisely ask if you have a resource I can check to go deeper, that's it

[eager moss]

The initial release after the explosion probably was not in 1 second but the expansion as the gas escaped would be about that; I would need access to a more sophisticated modelling software to do the calculation properly.

[elfin cradle]

Sorry, Im in a bit in a bad mood. I think that Bjorn Lund (the Swedish seismographer that first detected the explosions) linked to a paper about just this in an article. But I wont have time to find out during the weekend.

[vocal violet]

Ah don't worry, not in a hurry, and thanks! And hoping whatever caused the bad mood to get sorted out quickly (:

[eager moss]

On the question of whether the seismographs on Bornholm could detect the gas release there was some correspondence from one of the authors of a paper at the geophys conference posted some weeks ago; as you can see the conclusion was that the initial explosion and the gas release were not distinguishable.

the reports that I have seen just mention that 'objects' were recovered and taken for analysis, this could be steel pipe debris scattered on the seabed which was evident during the blueye survey conducted later and which was made available.

[eager moss]

interpreting what the stills from the rov survey actually show is made difficult by the reflection of the light. This same surface viewed from several other angles where the reflected light does not obscure the surface show that it is not as smooth and straight as might first appear but is curved and ragged in places (as if torn). These stills are of the same surface (it's the Russian end of the ruptured NS1A pipeline).

This is a view of the NS2A rupture which is at a field joint (the video for NS1A is not at a field joint which is why the rebar and crushed concrete is visible).

[hushed karma]

Is there possibly a sceme going on here on this issue. At this moment news from FBI is suggesting there were plans to demolish this pipeline by Ukrain. Looking to a broader point of view with interest in cutting off the mony machine off Russia , yes , that could be a reason. But. Ukrain its enemy’s could in time know also that there was this planning on some table. If i was Russia. I would do it and blaim Ukrain. We have all seen this kind of events happen far to often by Russia. The local long stay vessels of Russia af and just before this event took place is at least telling that Russia had the same idea, or was executing it. Are there proofs that this did not happen by the hands of Russia ? For me the interest is that espionage on both sides did take place. Ukrain had nothing but that mony flow as interest. At the same time Europ was slowing down to cutting of the gas dependency. Now another possibillity came to mind in this dossier. The US had clearly and outspoken stated that the second pipe would not come in production. This is stated by Trump and Biden as well. Could US have a part in this whole sceme. As now all off a sudden there apears to be FBI reports around that time about this. I truly wonder why not actually. It came very handy in time and place for the US foreign politics on this matter. To much in my opinion. And lets be real. There are allready fighting dogs to blame. How convenient. No ? So. My question to our community is. Lets follow this with a very open mind and get facts on the table. ( sorry for typo’s , English is not my native speech or writing )

[exotic shale]

Are you reading my other emails too?

[hushed karma]

Busy catching up after my leave of almost 6 weeks without internet. 👍

[hushed karma]

I chopped of with a real sharp axe a 12 A presurised thick heavy hose that i shallow burreid in sandy mud. The sudden release of pressure made both ends swirl at first and blowed more mud away in some wider range at both ends. Now. This was a small non science experiment. But that principle of pipe ends moving might be possible here. Is here some knowledge available that could state , if that pipeline behaved more or les the same after the explosion and sudden press release ? And how would that have effected the GEO signs that were recorded and blowed away debrie and evidence ?

[hushed karma]

Not necessarly other breaks in that pipeline . As this pipeline in designed for a load of events and has some flex while installed from a vessel on to the bottom. But the pressure release must have given an odd geo recording due to the movement of it

[exotic shale]

I was was wondering how you found this email to me

[hushed karma]

There are explosives that are not huge in volume if they are installed around the pipeline Those cut clean real thick metal in two peaces. Like complete bridge columns. Looking at pictures. This might be the case here. But. Than they needed a vessel with diving capacity. To my understanding. There was one Russian vessel long enough for these actions on those both spots of Ns1 and NS2 That same vessel is later spotted around crucial oil and electra lines in the proximity of those for longer recent periods

[hushed karma]

I am just reading in this topic.

[tidal knoll]

Hi, if look carefully, you can see that Erkperk is replying to seva, not to you.

[hushed karma]

Looking at some edges. Ill try to upload a picture of a pipe devided by explosives. The pipe had no protective shelf around it like this pipe. So the cut is cleaner. But look at the corresponding cutting edges of the steel.

Cut with explosives designed for this purpose

[velvet rain]

I really don't think these scenarios are comparable in terms of behaviour.

[hushed karma]

Well. I do not think they dumped a load of TnT there. Seen that picture. The type of explosives used are as importend and pointing to the purp as prooving that a purp might have been able to do so in time and place.

So what is needed is an explosives expert. Or a demolition expert that works with explosives on steel structures

[hushed karma]

This picture shows a cutted steel edge. Which is sertain for a type of explosives as far as i can tell.

[tired monolith]

didint this last news piece specifically call the explosives mines?

[serene grove]

what's the difference? I thought that in marine terms "mine" just means any stationary explosive, e.g. not a torpedo

[tired monolith]

it has been a lot of talk about specific explosives and what would be suited, calling it a mine seems very out of place if its not what military would call a mine

[eager moss]

you posted it on twitter did you not ?

[eager moss]

i have no idea what you might be referring to here unless it's about the seismograph information from Andreas.

[serene grove]

did we ever figure out whether the clean cuts shown on the news clips of UUV footage were from the explosion or from salvage by investigators?

cause my thinking is even if it was a clean break from a cutting charge, the pressure would yeet it into twisted metal

[eager moss]

I think i addressed this in part yesterday - the photo that many seem to reference when thinking it is a clean cut is the one that shows a bright shiny 'clean' surface which is the consequence of the reflected light and angle of the 'shot'. When other views are taken into account it can be seen that the 'shiny clean cut' photo is misleading.

[eager moss]

agreed - a shaped charge placed around a segment of the circumference of the pipeline would rupture the pipeline causing an explosive release of gas that would cause further shearing of the steel pipe wall around the remainder of it's circumference. The ragged nature of the shearing and the severe bending of the steel pipe wall suggests that this part of the circumference was sheared by movement of the steel pipe section.

[serene grove]

also you can just rip steel apart and it'll stay shiny until it oxidizes

I think that happens pretty quickly in saltwater though?

but yeah they might not have even had to cut the damaged sections out...they could've just straight up detached when bent too far too quickly

(I feel weird saying these things when at first I came in here saying "no way the pressure in the pipe did anything" lmao... I've learned so much from you folks <3)

[eager moss]

it's not really as 'shiny' as it appears in the photo. This is the same steel pipe wall from a different angle without the directly reflected light. Note the deformation (flattening) of the top of the pipeline and the defect near the middle of the flattened section (not the strand of poly rope but the steel wall beneath it)

[serene grove]

I would pay good money to see video of this experiment regardless of its relevance

[exotic shale]

yes, sorry, I had posted it in a reply on Twitter and forgotten about it. I was afraid my emails had leaked out some other way. The analysis after our expedition is ongoing and I hope we'll be able to publish results soon concerning number of bombs, sizes and the causes of seismic signals.

[hushed karma]

Thank you all for good criticly reading my thoughts and theory around the used explisives, the apperantly activity of the sudden violent pressure release and the notable further damage of the pipe ends. I have been looking also towards damage caused bij a torpedo or a mine on WWII warships. Why ? Well. The differance between the behavior of a mine as a bomb on steel survices and a puncturing torpedo is significant. Not as such the rimms of the metal cuts or ruptures itself. But the surroundings of that impact is what triggers my attention. Of there was a bomb like charge on or near the pipe , the pipe itself would be splatterd or crushed over a longer distance than seen on the available footages. Therefore is most likely some sort of a circumverent charge used. Or. Explosives of some sort placed and used with that effect. The cut of the pipe is done by force. Metal rupture in any kind is never as sharp as a knife or mirorring. In my used pictures there is claerly simularity between the edges of both. That ads up on the not flattend pipe end of both. Any bigger used charge, just on top of the pipe, while this pipe is also more or less embedden in de sand, will be crushed down over a longer distance. And not even the immens pressure within that pipe would counteract enough to hide that kind of damage. Furthermore. Such an explosion results in a water fountain on the serfice what would be noticed and recorded by satelite immagery. In this case i looked at the result of clearing them still found old WWII mines by our marine. They are blown up under the surface and allways give a spectacular fountain above the waterline. Now. That stated. Depth of the pipe might soften that effect. But. That in mind. There will be a noticable blow of that charge on the surfice. So far. Only the release of gas from the pipe itself was seen. Therefore i ask anyone to look out for signs of the blow and detonation itself. If there is none. Then we might assume the circumverent charge.

In this case we could ask the company how much move and bending was allowed while placing this pipeline from deck to the bottom there. That might give more data to be able to calculate the movemant of the pipe end while suddenly releasing its load. And that will or might explain the crater like shapes there. Also could it explain further deformation of the “mouth” of that pipe. If it was violant enough. The pipe deformation could be caused by that moving and slamming around while discharging. That slamming of that pipe could therefore caused the pipe to flatten in certain amound. And most certain the mantle would be blasted away over a certain extend of that pipe. That i do not see at all. There is in a very short distance of the cut still the concrete mantel visible But. Since there was also a significant differance within both pipelines. One could be stayed more open under the blast than the other. That is also still on my mind

[hushed karma]

It is still unclear to me wat the used term “ mine “ means in this. Therefore i will keep calling it a charge of explosives. Which is more neutral as type and more accurate as causing this effect here.

[tired monolith]

yeah seems more logical to me unless its an actual mine by name used when it was sold/produced

[hushed karma]

Reading back and adding up there are some questions that would proof more about the kind of explosives. That would also give far more answers and direct questions on how this charge must have been placed. One is dropping. The other is installing the charge. And that is a huge differance. Now. We know Russia has vessels equipt to do so. And they were seen on many of these strategic places. Ukrain should have hired some sailing ship. And Nato was with US vessels also there. In mind that every charge can be detonated with timers or from very long distances. Any of these party’s could have done so. But the most likely and full equiped vessel there with irratic sailing manouvres is still that mentioned Russian vessel in my opinion. Traces on the by Getmany at this time investigated vessel can very well be placed there aftwewords. We all know that Russia and the US are very capable of doing so. And also very much capable of hiding evydence or creating fals evydences.

[inner sandal]

Here's what happened when a gas pipeline ruptured in Washington State in 2003. The pipe was buried under soil rather than in water but I think this gives an idea of the likely force. "There was no ignition. The crater is just from the force of the gas escaping. Notice the piece of pipe in the upper right hand corner of the picture. That is how far the force of the escaping gas threw that piece of heavy pipe." https://pstrust.org/ignition-of-natural-gas-transmission-pipelines/

[inner sandal]

BTW: I contacted the author of the article and he said: "I am not sure what occurs if a pipeline is under 100+ feet of water. I suspect the pressure of the gas being released could dig a pretty big looking crater, but the key word there is 'suspect'.”

[elfin cradle]

I guess that you already have talked with these people? Not so much seismic signals, but deformation of the pipe depending on size of charge and distance. They model at 200-744m depth, using a 300kg and a 600kg explosives charge on a 36" offshore pipe with 0 or 145barg with a thickness of 34mm and the charge with distance of 4-135m from the pipeline. Not exactly as the Nordstream pipes but maybe not that way off either.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276241513_Effect_of_Underwater_Explosion_on_Pipeline_Integrity

[inner sandal]

That research is mainly concerned with the effect of old munitions on the seabed exploding close to pipelines. It assumes a spherical charge that is metres away from the pipe, rather than a shaped charge which is attached to it. Water seriously weakens the explosive force even if the pipe is only a few metres away.

[limber hinge]

Folks seem to grasp onto one piece of the puzzel and put all blame there, in this case Andromeda. If one takes all the recently released Andromeda info and overlays it onto the earlier research of vessle placement a very different view.

Recall the Russian tanker loitering in the area, the Russian submarine rescue vessle with its own submersible (photographed on scene), Russian tugs, and various NATO naval vessles either conducting operations or running search patterns. Then you have the Andromeda sail by and do this placement without notice?

The Andromeda may have been involved and may have had a role in the attack but just because it was there does nothing to forward the argument that it placed the explosives. It may have been there for any number of reasons related to the attack.

How is it Andromedas appearance on scene proves it placed the explosives and the Russian ships, or NATO ships, being in the same place are thereby absolved of involvement?

Various researchers here have done a good job of recreating the tracks of these various military vessles. It would be interesting if someone could overlay Andromedas supposed track over the known tracks. That may go someway to explaining the situation.

[serene grove]

there's really no way to find out where the Andromeda went, it has no AIS transmitter and is too small to reliably track with radar

I guess if you got really lucky with satellite imagery you could maybe find out where it was at a certain point in time, but nobody has done that successfully as far as I'm aware

[limber hinge]

But is that not what the article claimed, that they traced Andromeda to Poland and back.

[serene grove]

yeah I mean you'll be able to find out when it was in port, but when it's out of sight of land things get difficult

it's not like a giant tanker or military boat where you can find it pretty easily on satellite images if you have a good idea of where to look

I'm not saying it's impossible, I just haven't seen anyone do it yet

[eager moss]

To place the 2003 incident in the context of Nordstream : the pipeline rupture in 2003 was obviously of a much smaller diameter than the Nordtream pipeline; maybe 24" as suggested in the article. It would also have been at a lower pressure than the Nordtream lines - under 70 bar compared with 100 to 165 bar for Nordstream. The combination of much smaller diameter and lower pressure means that the force exerted by the escaping gas jet would be significantly smaller than that exerted by the gas jets after the Nordstream ruptures. This would be perfectly capable of creating craters in the seabed at the location of the ruptures regarless of being under 80 metres of water (ie 8 bar external pressure). An additional factor when in water is that the gas will be subject to significant expansion when discharged due to the very rapid pressure reduction.

[serene grove]

plus the pipes were probably blowing around for at least a few seconds

that's something that doesn't appear to have happened in the buried pipe

[eager moss]

the soil overburden was sufficient to restrain the onshore pipeline; this wouldn't have been the case for Nordstream pipelines which means that any movement of the pipeline after rupture could have been both on the seabed and lifting off it. NS1 is slightly different to NS2 because the NS1 pipelines had a significant embedment due to deposition of sediment on both sides; the video of the approach to the NS1 rupture site shows that the pipeline appears buried to over half it's diameter but in fact it's sediment deposition not burial into the seabed. This deposition had not occurred at the NS2 full-bore rupture site south of Bornholm.

[serene grove]

yeah I assume that sludge is probably similar to seawater in structural integrity

[eager moss]

the Baltic seabed at both NS1 and NS2 rupture locations doesn't appear to be 'sludge' 🙂 . The rov video shows a fairly compact seabed and a lot of sediment transportation; there also seems to be a lot of rubble on the seabed which may be the scattering of debris from the explosions over a large area (which is probably being moved around by currents). The strenth of the currents is evident from the movement of transported sediment, especially at the NS1 locations east of Bornholm. This still shows the seabed as the rov is moving towards the NS1-A rupture; with a small gulley of which there are many.

[serene grove]

I've seen a lot of sludge underwater and it can definitely take on that appearance

sediment tends to loosely clump together like that in water

to be fair my experience is in freshwater, but the Baltic is only like 1/5 of ocean salinity iirc

[eager moss]

The Nordstream project description of the seabed in the 'Bornholm Basin' is that the seabed comprises 'clay, sand and silt' - a typical description for 'mud' - and I think that's what we see in the photo; a homogeneous mix of all three which have been compacted over time. In shallower water it could very well look more like 'sludge'. The density of a very sloppy, almost liquid, silty sludge will be about 1.5 times that of water - (many decades ago I had to conduct experiments to determine this value so that I could design the concrete weight coat to ensure the pipeline would sink into the silt and not float on the surface; getting samples from the bottom of the trench later to check my work was not fun :-)).

[serene grove]

yeah that makes sense, I was thinking about that density ratio for fully saturated stuff near the "surface"

so if the concrete is weighted based on that the pipe is probably going to be just an order of magnitude or so denser overall? it's definitely going to jump around if that's the case

submerged sediments have this tendency to take on the properties of liquids when disturbed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sediment_gravity_flow

[eager moss]

A concrete weight coat thickness of almost 40mm is required on the 48" pipelines in the area where the ruptures occurred just to make the pipeline sink in seawater - ie almost half of the concrete coating that is provided is to prevent the pipeline from floating.

[serene grove]

but it gets a whole lot heavier when you pressurize it right? that's just to get it to stay sunk while empty

honestly I'm surprised it didn't make even more of a mess down there

[eager moss]

density of a gas is dependent upon pressure and temperature - methane has a density of 82kg/m3 at 12C and 100bar; so that adds about 83kg per metre to the submerged mass of the pipeline on the seabed.

[serene grove]

that's way way less than I expected tbh

oh right I was thinking liquified density not just CNG

[eager moss]

for context, the submerged weight of an empty pipeline with 100mm concrete weight coat is about 450 kg/m; so the mass of gas makes it about 535 kg/m3 (+19%)

[serene grove]

yeah that's really insignificant when you factor in engineering margins

my understanding from talking to a bunch of ocean engineering majors in college is that marine industrial stuff is all ridiculously overengineered

(my school taught a whoooooole lot of Northrop Grumman and Halliburton types)

I mean they have piper alpha and stuff like that still in recent memory, it makes sense

it's probably cheaper to build it 10x as strong as you think it needs to be once than 2x as much as strong as you think it needs to be twice

since there's a way way higher labor to materials cost ratio for blue water stuff than pretty much anything I can think of

oh btw...not really an academic question, but how much of that sediment do you think is just straight up fish shit? :p

since it sounds like you've smelled it before :p

[eager moss]

OS-F101 is a standard for design construction and operation of subsea pipelines that has been developed based on a lot of research into many pertinent engineering topics costing mega millions of dollars over a few decades. It's also based on an assessment of risks and uncertainties; it's a standard that's adopted around the world not just in Europe (but, of course, not in the US). It's undergone a number of updates and revisions since it was first issued in 1976 (I liked the 1976 version as well). So yes, the systems and structures are overdesigned but it's served the industry well.

[eager moss]

not as much as we hear from politicians.

[serene grove]

overbuilding is really only a bad thing for stuff that has to support its own weight...submerged stuff is fun because you can just mess with the buoyancy however you like

also if I'm right in understanding that this pipe is meant to flex significantly to support "s-curve" style pipe laying...however I wasn't able to find any info on the specific bend radius, any chance you got news on that?

[eager moss]

normal pipely operations, such as for Nordstream, involve the pipeline bending as it moves from the pipelay vessel onto the seabed but the limitation is a combination of both bending stress and longitudinal stress. Bending stress due the the curvature and longitudinal stress due to the tension required to control the curvature of the pipeline. So it isn't a limit on the bend radius that is applied. In simple terms, the tension required is roughly equivalent to the weight of pipeline suspended off the seabed between the end of the stinger and the touchdown point on the seabed. (The stinger is the structure that supports the pipeline off the stern of the pipelay vessel for part of the distance down to the seabed.) But that is an interative process because the tension determines the length of pipeline suspended off the seabed - the greater the tension the longer the suspended length. Also the longitudinal stress increases but the bending stress decreases; so the analysis is focussed on finding an optimal solution for tension required to control the curvature. The higher the tension the greater the power required for the thrusters to control the DP pipelay vessel so finding an optimal solution is important to minimise operating cost of the pipelay vessel whilst also managing the risk of pipeline overstressing during pipelay.

[inner sandal]

TRACKING THE ANDROMEDA: The WSJ article says "German investigators have fully reconstructed the entire two-week long voyage". The route was "pieced together with data from the Andromeda’s radio and navigation equipment, as well as satellite and mobile phones and Gmail accounts used by the culprits". It continues: "Taken together, the details show that the boat sailed around each of the locations where the blasts later took place."

According to Mola's website the Bavaria C50 carries the following navigation equipment: Radar (not on all yachts), chart plotter, log, plummet, anemometer, VHF with DSC, compass, harbor handbooks, sea charts, navigation tools, binoculars, electric wind gauge, autopilot. I'll let others consider what clues that might have provided.

However, details of the boat's route may not be as complete as the WSJ suggests, because investigators are unsure whether it made landfall in Poland or stayed at sea in Polish waters: "It is unclear whether the yacht reached Polish shores or rendezvoused with another vessel in Polish waters, people familiar with the investigations said."

[serene grove]

oh wow yeah I completely missed that, where is it linked?

obviously if the vessel tracked itself and they managed to find that data it's a completely different story

[inner sandal]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nord-stream-sabotage-probe-turns-to-clues-inside-poland-4ed20422?page=1

[serene grove]

I had kinda figured that the "they took the nav gear" story had turned into a dead end

[elfin cradle]

Me and @pure finch tried to track the ships that were visible on SAR but did not have AIS activated. But its impossible with the free public tool that is available (Sentinel-1). The frequency the satellite does overpass is to far between. To accurately tack a ship you would need something that takes once every hour or more.
The western military ships are easy to track because they have their AIS (atleast to large parts) but we are totally in the dark regarding Russian millitary vessels.

[elfin cradle]

This is from first the Southen NS2 site , and you can clearly see the first explosion (refence to the left) but does anyone have seismogram in large detail/resolution over the others explosions?

[hushed karma]

That is very true. But reading the science article and looking at the effect of such a blast of mines or dropped charges makes very clear how the pipe ends will look after such a blast. Even if it was under pressure. The noted spontain blow out of the in soil burried gaspipe and its effect , shows the crater. And how material was thrown at a certain distance. The answer to no ingnition is the lack of flamable oxigen at that moment in time of that event. To much gas no oxigen means no fire.

See here the effect as discribed after a dropped charge or mine. The spontain blow out pipe , mentioned before. Could also suggest a blow out from within. Wich makes me also think that a loaded “pig” which are used to clean the pipes inside, could also be used in time of maintenance and lower pressure

[eager moss]

The use of internal pigs to transport explosives 1000 kilometres is maybe possible but not likely for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it would point very directly at the perpetrator. Also : a) In order to position the internal pig the pressure inside the pipeline would have to be controlled at both ends of the pipeline so that the differential pressure across the pig could be used to move the pig into position. The NS1 pipelines were shut-in at the time of the explosion and the NS2 pipelines were gas filled but had not been approved to deliver gas so I'm not clear as to how the required pressure differential could be managed in any of the four pipelines. b) It would also be necessary to have a survey vessel on location for an extended period of time to detect the position of the pigs in each pipeline so that they could be located; it might be worth noting that the ruptures are in 'Bornholm Deep' and not just some random locations anywhere along the pipelines. c) The pigs would be substantial items of equipment and some remnants of the pigs would be left at the site of the ruptures - there has been no hint that such remnants have been found.

[hushed karma]

Thank you for claering that up. What you stated is logical and rules that out. An even importand point made. Ruling out gets us more and more focussed on the event and its causes itself.

Reading this curviture and adding them in time together the gas burst and the violance caused by this is in my optics claerly visible. It is 1 peak of the blast and after that the aftermath of the gas blowing out. Now. The left might fingerpoint towards the slamming and movemant of the pipe ends itself. Taking in mind the shown blast within soil at much lower pressure. But i do not have the science to proof that on the hands of this graphics shown here. The main goal is terminating causes and ways of triggering this event towards were we can state that it was no crude dropped charge, but a very unnoticable small high tec charge to cut the pipe. Which will tel us also the needs to be able to place that charge. Which that Russian vessel had. The Nato vessels possibly also had. But this sailingship Andromeda clearly lags of. With that we might be able to rule out more and more.

[hushed karma]

I really doubt now that Andromeda story more and more. Any of us would mask traces. And most of all these very clear shown traces. Logic tells me that here some intel sceme has taken place. Proof me wrong please.

[limber hinge]

Brian,
Thank you for posting that.
Of the nav equipment listed only the chart plotter has the capability of recording a track and only if it is set up to do so. Why would the Andromeda crew set the device to record their track and leave it on the chart plotter?
Either they did nit understand the plotter (rookies) or they did it intentionally or (most likely) there is no chart plotter record.
The other methods are tracking cell phones or satellite phone. Again pretty dumb or intentional.

[hushed karma]

I agree with you. Them facts are far to obvious that there is so much reason for doubt. Unbelievable issues with this kind of evidence. Far , realy very far to obvious. I think that it is a time waist to go deeper in to this. Find the used charge method. And than we will know more. Every charge had its fingerprint. And every country or global region there own versions of it.

[inner sandal]

There are also two suspects who could be interviewed if the Ukrainian government is willing to help: one man on the boat, plus a woman from the travel firm. There's also a second person from the travel firm but she appears to be in Russian-controlled territory.

[strange bane]

I’m going to go back to the Yacht TV video and see if I can identify the navigation equipment.

The chart plotter might have a S-VDR in it.

[limber hinge]

SARA,
The plotter was installed in the cockpit table pedestal and was removed. You will need to look at a picture of a sister ship to ID it.
That said is would be EXTREAMLY rare to find a video recorder in thr plotter. My plotter, an older RayMarine unit, records way points to a removable solid state disk, SD card. In this case it is rhe card the charts are contained upon. But you will likely need to ID the brand and model to get how it works.
Honestly I do all my chart work and plotting on a phone, which CAN record routes and even save them to a server.
FWIW the plotter likely also serves as the radar display, in the event they have one.

But, happy hunting.

[strange bane]

Will do

[serene grove]

IIRC they had an AIS receiver but not active radar (I cannot remember where I heard that though :/)

[hushed karma]

More detail in this and more fuel in this Andromeda sceme. Who was that Russian person ? Known fact is that Russia uses a lot of females within there “intelligents curcuit” aka espionage. Rubbing up to boat owners. As they are more likely more wealthy with more civil infuence positions. So by identifying that lady there might be some definit clue there to write off this Andromeda lead in this search. In the mean while i did some more study in public sources about influences of the possible used types of charges. And since there is no signs of longer flattening of the pipe ends ( which might be less visable also due to the high internal pressure ) there is also no real damage noticable of the mantle of these both pipes. And there should be more mantle damage over a longer end of both pipe ends of both pipelines, if it was a dumped charge of any kind. Now this pipe and its mantle was designed to endure certain hazzards as old still wandering mines and such. But the same reports handling that hazzard shows very clear how the pipeline would deform over a very much longer end than shown in the footages we all have seen. That makes me more and more convinced that there is an installed circumverent cutting charge used. I am really interested if there are counter ideas on my thoughts on this particular cut of ends of the pipe lines.

[stone wadi]

Norway also have constitutional limits on how much fossil extraction. They can do

[eager moss]

It's important to recognise that we only have fragments of information on the nature of the damage caused to the pipelines by the explosions; the rov video and the stills taken from those videos only provide limited information. There are four full bore ruptures (definately 3 but probably 4) which means that there are 8 damaged ends of pipelines; but we have access to videos for only 2 of those 8 pipeline ends. Of those 2 ends we have several views taken from many different angles only on one of them (NS1-A); the other only provides side views onto the pipeline rupture (NS2-A). There is also, apparently, damage caused to NS2-A at the location east of Bornholm for which we have no views; this is only a very small leak which was barely detectable at the surface so the cause of damage at this location (NS2-A east of Bornholm) is likely to be very different to the full-bore ruptures elsewhere. Given the limited information available a little caution is warranted before coming to conclusions; extrapolation of what we think we can see at just one end at one rupture location is being unrealistic ?

[stone wadi]

The pipeline was also covered in concrete after it was put on the seabed

[eager moss]

the concrete weight coat was placed on the pipeline at the coating yard before it was transported to the pipelay vessel for laying on the sea bed.

[stone wadi]

Some articles about the construction while it was going on so it was a while ago.
Might be a reference to the fill at the weld's

[eager moss]

the field joints are filled with a foam that's injected inside a sheet 'former' which is wrapped around the field joint; concrete was used about 40 years ago but it's much easier to handle the foam on a pipelay vessel so that has been the conventional solution for many years.

[hushed karma]

Very well stated. There must be more footage outthere. Only not published. And i am very eager to look at those. In the mean while we have to do with wat is shown. And indeed bare in mind that other footages might show differant results. Howe ever. Looking at the only immages available of both shown pipe ends, i think a crude blow from dropped charges still might not be the case here. But as stated before. Traces of the charges itself, if any available and possibly blown far out due to the blow out of the pipes, can and definitely will identify the type of charge used. In mean while is it possible to define the most likely used types of charge and focus on that without knowing who was the maker of the charge. Why am i still willing to do so ? Well. The cloud on presented “ circumstantial evidence” and on certain stated theories is growing now rapidly with the Andromeda thesis. Therefore is it worthy to keep focussed on the event itself. Therefore is the vessel not my main target at this moment. But the event itself and how it had acted out. Than the perpetrator will be found far more easely as there are in my belief differances between explosives made in west or eastern territories. But i did not found any analitics on the samples taken there on this matter. I realy would like to see and read those results. And i do think many among us. As the west uses higher refined RDX and other nitrates in our explosives, we have more varieties of mixers to change the characteristics of the explosive, and many more unit-pack varieties.

Now. Ukrain and Russia would use a kind like charge which will be different from what Nato vessels cary or US would use. And that narrows down who made this event happen. The Andromeda thesis must be looked into more careful as it is so obvious a setup. And wel working agents , even under these circumstances do not leave that much evidence behind. Sorry. But this theory is to out loud for my taste and mind to swallow that easy.

[hushed bay]

Hi Ireaneaus! We typically avoid this type of speculation based on hearsay. I don't think its helpful to the discussion because these types of closed sourced cannot be scrutinized, and open source research is all about sharing all information out in the open for all to access and review.

So, I thank you for your interest in this topic but I'd ask that you refrain from sharing this type of information since, which, again, I think doesn't add meaningfully to the discussion.

[hushed karma]

Thank you Giancarlo for your remark. I deleted the info on differences between Russian used and western countries used charges till i have found the public source. If i receive the public source. I will repost it.

[hushed bay]

Thanks! Yeah that makes sense, that way we can all scrutinize the information properly, including asking questions about the source

[hushed karma]

Yeah. You are right. My mishap. Sorry. I trust his knowledge. But that is not public So. Yeah. Deleted

[hushed bay]

All good, thanks!

[eager moss]

Agreed that we can only work with what we have; we just need to recognise that it's incomplete at this time.

[civic rapids]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-warned-ukraine-not-to-attack-nord-stream-7777939b WSJ out with a new article - CIA doubted their capability but still warned Ua in June not to do it, and Dutch mil intel officials told the CIA about it seems to be the gist

[hushed karma]

I heard today on the Dutch NOS news ( https://nos.nl/l/2478770 ) that Dutch intel warned US >> CIA And US told Ukrain not to attack it. I wonder if Russia also got info about it and thought to act upon it to give Ukrain a bad reputation and name. That would be plausible since one of the crewmembers of the Andromeda appears to be a Russian lady. Indentity still not known for the public so far. And i am so much troubled by the timing this suddenly comes out as a “ newsfeature”. Placed in time > at the start of the counterattacks and at the moment that F16 might be granted. More over at the time even Switzerland is considering to support Ukrain in some way. And i do not believe in coincidence So. I will search not only towards the type explosives. But will look into where this turn started and other possibilities were neglected around them Russian vessels.

[tidal knoll]

Hi, check the post above yours.

Does the NOS article have extra information?

[hushed karma]

I completed with the source of info towards the CIA in my add. Could not devide it or translate it and is in Dutch. And to underscribe the source i got it from it looks the same. But go’s some steps before the CIA in this case. And if Dutch intell got it. Were did that come from ?

[civic rapids]

Seems to be a source in Ukraine they reference as the initial warning, and then later as the explanation, but who the source in Ua is, it doesn't say

[tidal knoll]

I speak Dutch, but most here don’t. I don’t see why you felt the need to duplicate the story.

[civic rapids]

TBF, I poorly worded what I said in my first post

[hushed karma]

That is why i posted the full. Plus my thoughts around the timing of this. I think this timing is importand to consider also. And i am also “ a Dutchie “

[strange bane]

Navigation Through Danish Waters

Navigational information concerning the established transit route between Skagen (the Skaw) and the area northeast of Gedser

[pure finch]

Hi folks, it's been a while, so here's an updated timelapse of vessel movements in and around Bornholm during September 2022.

In addition to adding in Swedish CG vessels, this time I have also tried to include relevant maritime patrol aircraft movements from Sweden, Denmark & Germany, with a few brief appearances from Poland... Plus some Swedish ELINT aircraft movements.

Also included are some Swedish Air Force AWACs movements, based on @stark palm 's reporting.

Thanks to @elfin cradle for getting me interested in looking at this story and to @velvet rain & @strange bane for the help & suggestions putting this together.

There is no smoking gun in this timelapse, but hopefully folks find it interesting.

The AIS data is from dma.dk and ADS-B data is from adsbexchange.com.

For anyone new: a vessel without an active AIS transponder, or an aircraft without an active transponder will not appear in the data - this includes the Russian vessels reported in the area by Oliver and the sailing vessel "Andromeda" which has been widely reported in the media.

[strange bane]

Nice

[limber hinge]

While whe drifted close to the separation zone. there might be additional clues here the thing that strikes me is the way Mjnervia Julia shaped her drifting.
So she seems to want tons Tay out of the Danish zone and also out of the traffic separation lanes, reasonable. However she never varies her drif spot very far. Some of her drifts are very short because she needed to avoid the traffic separation zone. She had plenty of free space to the NE and could have easily motored some more miles in that direction and drifted in a better place. But instead of doing what logic, money, and safety and laziness decrees she keeps returning to about the same initial spot.
I find that very interesting.

[eager moss]

I suggest that the movement of the Minerva Julie is probably deliberate - the vessel looks like it's position fixing the location of the pipelines, determining accurate GPS coordinates for each of the four pipelines at that location so that the following operation doesn't have to do that before deploying divers or whatever was used to place explosives. It would be the sensible thing to do in a reasonably planned operation. The time it took and the number of times it had to cross the pipelines might reflect the quality/suitability of the echo sounder/sonar equipment used for the task and the fact that the NS1 pipelines would be harder to detect since there was significant deposition either side of the the pipelines such that they would appear to be 'buried'. Does anyone know whether this vessel (or type of vessel) would have a single beam sounder or would it be a multi-beam sounder ? ie two transducers in the hull or an array of several transducers.

[eager moss]

Great work; one question - what is the pink icon that very briefly appears at around 58sec ?

[pure finch]

Excellent eyes! That is an unknown contact using MMSI: 999999999

I added this MMSI in at @strange bane 's suggestion: this MMSI is sometimes used by military vessels that don't want to give away their identity, but for whatever reason want other vessels to know that something is operating out there.

In @stark palm 's piece (https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/osint-analysis-six-russian-ships) he noted the presence of USS Kearsarge (LHD-3), USS San Antonio (LPD-17) and USS Gunston Hall (LSD-44) in the Baltic.

Kearsarge (368702000) used the name: "USGOVERNMENT VESSEL3"
Gunston Hall (368869000) used the name: "NAVALVESSEL"

San Antonio doesn't appear, so I am thinking it might be the 999999999 contact.

[hushed karma]

Great find. And also that pink spot. Now on top of all the info comming to us. This has been published. And states that the Danish militairy clearly that this Russian vessel has been there for quite a while without its transponders active. Now. That was allready known and found suspicius. I wonder why this is published at this time by this newspaper while others are only diving into the Andromeda story . Significant detail in this article is the written fact that there were traces of explosives in the proximity of that Andromeda vessel. I am looking in to that detail now . It is a doc side. Traces could come from just cargo of other ocasions and could have nothing to do with the Andromeda https://www.businessinsider.nl/deens-leger-bevestigt-russisch-schip-met-minionderzeeer-te-hebben-gespot-enkele-dagen-voor-explosie-nordstream/

[hushed karma]

I would like to know why that particular place of sabotage was chosen. Why that spot and not a spot higher on the map or closer to the Russian territories. While i am reading a lot of reasons why 3 or even 4 countries ( US , Russia , Poland and Ukrain ) had motives from warfare to economics, to sabotage these pipes. A Fifth country however did not draw attention to any in the public discussions or investigations. Germany under pressure of NS2 use and developed voulnarabillity to Russian energy politics, never got any attention. The broken pipes made that political decision for them with remarkable clean hands or guilt for ending the project. Even if that choice allready was announced. The fact that this outcome is in time very comforting for there policy in this dossier, and is to convenient to not look further in to it. In short. There are 2 countries with warfare motives. Russia and Ukrain. There are 5 countries with very deep political motives. US, Russia , Ukrain , Poland and Germany , of which 3 countries had bigger economic interests , Poland, Ukrain for the loss of pay by land transport and Germany for the huge pay for quitting NS2 project. And do not forget the Polish equivalent and competitor of the NS1 & 2 that opened just after the sabotage of the NS pipelines. Poland is now under attention but possibly only by this Andromeda sceme. The German involvement is never taken in consideration. And that is interesting. Is that perhaps also the reason to choose that spot. Reachable from German soil and harbors and just far away enough ? I like some more research and facts on that also.

[eager moss]

I will leave the discussion on the politics of the region to others but I will comment from an engineering perspective as to why the location may have been chosen. The location of the ruptures reduces the length of pipeline that will be damaged by sea water ingress; the sea water will pose a corrosion hazard for the pipelines because of the chloride content of the seawater. An additional hazard is the presence of sulphate reducing bacteria in the sea water that can cause very rapid 'corrosion' of the steel; hydrogen sulphide was identified in the sediments in Bornholm Deep. This potential for corrosion will be difficult to negate without a substantial amount of work. The internal lining doesn't provide any protection against sea water causing chloride corrosion nor SRB attack - the lining is applied to reduce the frictional losses and thereby reduce the compression required to achieve the flowrate; in fact sea water increases the rate of deterioration of the lining. You can see on the profile that the location of the ruptures will limit the sea water ingress to a relatively short length of the pipelines, about 100 kilometres at most and possibly a lot less; provided that the gas pressure in the pipelines is not reduced at either landfall by releasing the gas left in the pipeline. Whilst 100 kilometres might seem a lot, it is much less than 1200 kilometres. It's worth noting that what this also shows is that there was no value in destroying NS1-A at 2 locations 240 metres apart - the amount of work required to repair the pipelines, should repair ever be contemplated, will be the same for a pipeline with one full bore rupture as for a pipeline with two ruptures 240 metres apart.

[limber hinge]

Well that is interesting.
The damage was designed to be repairable, temporary. So someone who wants it to come back.

[eager moss]

That's one possible explanation; politics aside, there are other locations either side of Bornholm Deep that are much shallower which would make diving operations easier and would potentially flood much longer lengths of the pipeline.

[pure finch]

Should have added - 102002 is one of the Swedish ELINT aircraft. I'll get around to a full listing, hopefully by the weekend at the latest. I also want to show a more zoomed in timelapse of the MJ's movements - I put one up here before, but that was without some other vessels.

[hushed karma]

Very Well described possible follow up on the damage and the reason to pick that spot. This is a nice theory that i like to follow up upon and a very nice clue to keep in mind. And, politics or not, the act itself is a choice made. Who that made at the end of our research important. For now, as we cannot rule out anybody with any sort of interest in the blown up pipelines. There are to many tendency’s towards interests why not, or why they would by press and speculative sources maskering the facts and creating fogg over this. But: After the start of the gas blackmail attitude of Russia, a load of countrys had some interest. So. That aside. The fact that it is blown up on a possible repaireble spot makes a huge difference . And it was done not on the most easy spot to reach either. Makes me wonder, why would you not try to do such a way if you are in a war situation or Poland situation, and want them pipes gone forever ? The motives follows the goal. And the goal is the reason. A repairable damage is not at all in the interest of not economic driven or related counterparts of them pipelines in my opinion. Neither a country in war with each other. That would make no sence to do it so it is repairable. And that does not rule out Russia, US or Germany in this case. But i do think it gives lesser motive and reason to do so by the Ukrain with the now emerging Andromeda theory.

[little zinc]

https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1668979189272248320
https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1668979195572092938

Markus Jonsson mastodon.world/@auonsson (@auonsson)

Swedish prosecutor on Nord Stream:

"We know quite well what happened, how it was done, what equipment and type of large ship that presupposes. Explosives are unique. We can close some leads and confirm other leads. Hypothesis on state actor involvement is strengthening."

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 1:50 PM

Markus Jonsson mastodon.world/@auonsson (@auonsson)

When asked about the Andromeda-lead (pro-Ukrainian group in sailboat) prosecutor Ljungquist gets very vague, confirms cooperation in some parts with German investigation but declines further comment.

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 1:50 PM

[pure finch]

Posted a similar video before, but an updated zoomed in view of Minerva Julie's behaviour - with speed and heading data. White slow - Green fast scale.

[hushed karma]

Isn’t it true he used the word Fartig as in meaning a larger ship. Cause a sailboat like Andromeda is normally not called a ship as such. Further more are you right. This is vage. Very vage interview. As i assumed before, there might also be an interest for Germany. In mean while they know the type and origin of the explosives. Time will tell us this also Furthermore he ads that the most hot theories at this moment could be ruled out. And stated that Andromeda was not impossible but unlikely in connection with the 80 meters or 282 feet depth.

[hushed karma]

Wel. If that is not suspicious behavior, wat is? The question now is were there other vessels within a timeframe with some pattern like this. Wel done Miles 👍

[eager moss]

Thank you, that's interesting. I've further highlighted the pipeline crossing points when the vessel was 'drifting' slowly. IF the purpose was to position fix the pipelines, these are the points at which the coordinates would have been obtained. The slow 'drifting' shown on the eastern edge of the image is when the warships had arrived nearby; all the others are crossing the pipelines.

[pure finch]

Just adding this as a quick reference - it's possible I've made a mistake, left something out, or something is on this that doesn't appear in the time lapse - the time lapse(s) have gone through many iterations, requiring a lot of manual work to get the data working. More hours were spent on it than I'd care to admit.

Minerva Julie is flagged as a Greek vessel, whoever the ultimate owner is.

[pure finch]

I can't answer this - but back in 2021, someone highlighted a line from a Norwegian article to me, about the suspicious behaviour of Russian vessels:

Det er litt uvant å bli passert av et lasteskip som skal hente skrapmetall og lasteskipet bruker sonar. Du blir overrasket når du hører disse pingene fra et skip som går med skrapjern.

Google Translate:

It is a bit unusual to be passed by a cargo ship that is going to pick up scrap metal and the cargo ship uses sonar. You'll be surprised when you hear these pings from a scrap metal ship.

I don't have access to the article but it's here:
https://www.dn.no/magasinet/dokumentar/spionasje/russland/etterretningstjenesten/operasjon-lazarev-slar-alarm-om-kartlegging-av-norges-kritiske-infrastruktur/2-1-1085420

I file this under "huh..." along with a throwaway line from an Irish Examiner piece about the purchase of a couple of NZ patrol vessels for the Irish Naval Service:

Naval Service sources fear the Russians may have "pre-positioned charges" close to the cables which could be activated from the sky by their Tupolov Tu-142 ‘Bear’ bombers, which frequently fly exercises off the Irish coast.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40921898.html

Date: July 2022

[nimble gull]

Interesting. Can we extrapolate anything on his quote on the specificity of the explosives?

My loose translation: “I can say this much: the explosives are of a specific composition which it is possible to draw some conclusions from.”

Like… what?

[eager moss]

I try to avoid getting into conspiracy theories about 'whodunit' and just try to make some sense of available information; I look at the information from a perspective of pipeline/offshore engineering and construction and how it fits with what i would do if I was managing the 'job'; admittedly my experience does not involve clandestine destruction activities.

[hushed karma]

As a tried to publish here. There are significant differences in the chemical compounds used between different country’s. And characteristics of them traces found afterword can point into a regional direction where it might come from. But does not tell exclusive who put it there. As explosives are not hard to get in some regions around the world and factory’s sell them to related country’s or regimes. But. Since i had no public source i redraw that as asked for.

[pure finch]

Yeah, for me - I'm just an interested observer in this and I have no idea who did it, or how. I have some theories and some feelings about the investigation(s), but ultimately I'm a civilian in Ireland with no knowledge of marine/naval matters - so my thoughts are best kept to myself.

That's one of the motivations for putting the maps etc together and sharing them - so we can all get a better understanding of the what things looked like and maybe more knowledgeable folks can extrapolate something from them.

[hushed karma]

It is tempting to go from “ how would i have don it “ but i do go from “ How would i disguise the fact that i did it“. Using a characteristic kind of explosives will point towards the availability of that charge used. As of the very spoken out turmoil around the Andromeda and the facts intelligence organizations stating they knew on forehand. This said. I would by a charge from a country’s origine that i would like to have the blame and is known to lie. And that makes that the traces does not per definition leads to a perpetrator. That also could be stated.

[eager moss]

It's difficult not to have some theories but i mostly keep them to myself as well. The maps you provide are excellent as is clearly evident. I did an exercise many months ago of defining what i would have done if i was a project manager on the 'project' and i keep comparing that to what we think we know and to some of the theories proposed. There isn't a lot of alignment 🤦‍♂️

[pure finch]

I can relate - here's a "chart" I made on the evolution of my theories....

[deft stone]

it might be worth noting that - while somewhat obvious anyway - the investigations of the federal police and the BND are not corespondent/ reliant on one another. And that the federal police NEEDS to/MUST investigate by law, even if next to none or none evidence exists - and the BND ofc has no need to share their knowledge with the police. So even if whats been reported about german police were correct about what they've been investigating, it is completely inconclusive on anything - as everything else, sadly.

[deft stone]

did anyone get a screen from that post? Seems to have been deleted - or twitter is acting up for me

[stone wadi]

"fartyg" usually means larger ship but technically just means anything that transport people or goods.

While I haven't listened to it yet, Swedish prosecutors are usually really wauge so that is to be expected

In the below "fartyg" have been translated to vessel

 In the rules of the sea, ship refers to "every vessel, including non-displacement vessel, WIG vessel and seaplane, which is used or can be used for transport on water."
 In the Swedish Maritime Act, ships are defined as ships whose hull has a maximum length that exceeds 24 metres.  Another vessel is called a boat.[5]
 Within the Swedish navy, the term ship, as opposed to boat, is only used if manning takes place with enlisted crew.[6]
 A ship is a larger seagoing vessel;  however, what is meant by "bigger" varies in different contexts.  It can refer to a sailing vessel with at least three masts, specifically full-riggers, large naval artillery vessels such as ships of the line, armored ships and battleships, vessels of a certain size as defined by individual countries, or vessels perceived as larger than boats by whoever uses the word, synonymous with ships.```

[stone wadi]

That is the kind of statements I would expect

[eager moss]

I translated the twitter thread that was in Swedish so i could understand; it might be of interest to other non-Swedish speakers : 👇

"The analyzes of the items that have been taken up from the seabed and the analyzes of what happened at the site are almost complete. This also means that, based on that, we have a fairly good idea of what has happened and how this has happened ."
"I can say as much as that explosive has a special composition from which it is possible to draw certain conclusions."
"From knowing how this attack should have gone, it also says something about how the equipment might have looked. That is, what kind of equipment, ships, etc. were needed to be able to carry this out. cont...
This means that, based on that, we can both eliminate certain traces, but also confirm other parts in other ways."
Reporter mentions state actor behind.
"Yes, I would like to say in regard to that question, I rather think that hypothesis has been strengthened during the course of the voyage. But why I can say that, I cannot at present say anything cont...
if because it is part of the investigation that is classified."

Reporter asks about Andromeda trail:
"Yes..., we work together with the Germans, I can say that much."
"And I myself have met with the German prosecutor and the German investigation along with my investigation. But, more than that I can't say. We are working together on this case right now."
"I don't want to comment on what the investigation is basically about and I also don't want to comment on the German investigation, uhh, for various reasons. I'm just commenting that we're working together with the Germans in parts and that's, well, um, as much as you can say about it right now."

[stone wadi]

This is a not terrible unlikely inference
https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1668994546145869825

Markus Jonsson mastodon.world/@auonsson (@auonsson)

My guess: it is hard to comment when your German colleagues are barking up a dumb tree.

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 2:51 PM

[stone wadi]

That translation seems decent.
I thought that it was worth mentioning that prosecutors will be speaking bureaucracy Swedish not normal daily Swedish, so some translations can be bissarly wrong

[eager moss]

thanks for the observation; 'bureaucracy Swedish' is a polite term I assume 😉

[stone wadi]

More a descriptive term, it's not something most native speakers notice, a large part of it is just added specificity of words, sometimes it is narrower or wider definitions.
But sometimes it fundamentally changes the meaning.

For example the word that translates to "recommended" simultaneously means suggest and order.
Suggest for civilians and order for people working for the government (civil servants, healthcare, police etc) (only while at work though)

[serene grove]

someone sticky this it's perfect lmao

[stone wadi]

Makes translating stuff hard
And what is worse is that many civil servants use the same type of modified meanings of words while talking English with international reporters

[stone wadi]

And makes auto translators worse than useless from time to time

LoL
https://twitter.com/auonsson/status/1668994542517866497
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fartyg

Markus Jonsson mastodon.world/@auonsson (@auonsson)

The choice of words and avoidance of questions are also telling. Prosecutor Ljungquist uses the word "fartyg", see bing-search-pic for examples.
Further he confirms a state actor is the strong lead.
And he is very hesistant when asked about German investigation.

Twitter · Jun 14, 2023, 2:51 PM

One of the first results on Google search so that's likely why he used bing

Hm by the Swedish law of the sea the Andromeda is 6,5m too short to be a "fartyg" but the Swedish rules of the sea define everything that is or could be used for transport on water as a "fartyg" with the exception being howercrafts and seaplanes.
The navy just calls everything a boat.

So just as expected with statements like that

[nimble gull]

Still up I think, unless maybe a follow-up was deleted. Just listened to the episode. I don't agree with the tweet author's conclusions here... He's reading too much into tone of voice or word choices like "fartyg" in Swedish, says nothing about its size. It literally means vessel, and if I wanted to be ambigious - or didn't know very much about seafaring, it's a completely reasonable word to use.

I agree with @stone wadi (I think). I wouldn't read too much into this at all. Seems rather conspiratorial of the twitter author.

[elfin cradle]

Mayby, but maybe not, its after all called a sailingboat and not sailing vessel/ship in Swedish.

[nimble gull]

But he's not talking specifically about Andromeda in that segment.

In that specific response, he's just talking in general terms about the attack.

[elfin cradle]

Yes, then he kinda counts out Andromeda.

I need to relisten to the episode.

[nimble gull]

I think this is really grasping at straws. We're translating bureaucratic Swedish from a person who's carefully trying to guard his words... just saying its conspiratorial thinking to draw any kind of conclusion from.

[elfin cradle]

@pure finch What if MJ was a spoofed signal of a Russian ship, and then it turns of when the real MJ is in the area when it "left"..

[eager moss]

Some wind information at Bornholm for September 2022; does anyone have a source for detailed wave data for the time period ? https://weatherspark.com/h/m/150447/2022/9/Historical-Weather-in-September-2022-in-Bornholm-Denmark It would be appropriate to consider wind/wave conditions when evaluating suitability of particular vessels to perform the work. It might also offer a means of identifying a window for when the work might have been performed.

[nimble gull]

I'm no lawyer, but if I was trying to be intentionally vague about what kind of sea-faring vessel I'd be talking about, "fartyg" is exactly the word I'd use in Swedish. Mush like "sea-faring vessel" would be in english.

[serene grove]

so basically anything big/durable enough to be classified as "blue water vessel"?

[stone wadi]

Segelfartyg is a valid category

S/Y - Segelfartyg```

[elfin cradle]

But then its too long to be andromeda, that is like Ostindiefararen Götheborg.

[stone wadi]

Exactly

[elfin cradle]

We will just have to wait until September when the investigation is finished.

[stone wadi]

Depending on what set of definitions if you have a floating jetty that you decide to use to get across a lake than its a fartyg technically (under the loses definition)

[stone wadi]

Seems to exist some additional set of rules that put the limit at 12m not 24 🤷

Enligt svensk lag benämns ett segelfartyg, liksom övriga fartyg, skepp då det är större än 12x4 meter; mindre fartyg benämns båt.[2] Ifråga om segelfartyg används skepp också i betydelsen fullriggare.```
But in the end this is basically irrelevant

[stone wadi]

Likely longer as national security is likely going to limit the amount of info released

[stone wadi]

Or a canoe

[elfin cradle]

Most likley, just the Estonia report took 3 years to be finished.

[serene grove]

yeah I don't think the investigation is going to get released until either the pipeline is fixed and/or the war is over

no side would benefit much from proving another side did it...it's better for anyone who has evidence for sure to use it for what I guess amounts to diplomatic blackmail

[stone wadi]

Or Russia stop being a factor

Or someone officially decide to just dump all info in full asap just to confuse Russia

(The second one have happened previously)

[serene grove]

if NATO folks have proof russia did it, they don't want to say anything because not retaliating could make them look weak...plus it's good to threaten to expose them during peace negotiations (same thing more or less goes for if russia can prove ukraine did it)

[elfin cradle]

And if it was Ukraine / NATO country, it would just shatter support for Ukraine and split EU.

[stone wadi]

I don't think so

[serene grove]

yeah that's not my read on the situation either

well, the EU will be even more split than it currently is, but the people who have been supporting UA will likely not be deterred much at all

[stone wadi]

If it was Ukraine I find it more likely they will get a "nice work" but dressed up diplomatically as a yelling at them

[serene grove]

and if it was a NATO country then russia's propaganda machine would go nuts while the western public+NATO countries do a collective shrug

(well, germany would be pissed I guess, but idk about anyone else)

[stone wadi]

Germany would be annoyed if Poland blow it up but that is about that for split, the rest of the EU would be "nice work"

[hushed karma]

I concur with this transcript as it is very much the same from Swedish to Dutch. I translated it to Dutch and English. However i my both translations there was the use of “ ship “ as “ Fartig” and not ships. This is possibly caused by translation. But i think it is good to keep that in mind. And i know. It is a sand grain in a bucket of sand. But could be important to prevent a to soon outcome. That in mind. If ships is applied, did somebody suggested the scenario that the mentioned and on chart proven vessel behavior might be “ the installer”. And the Andromeda “ the igniter” of the installed charge. I know. Another theory. Another setup. But worth keeping in mind i guess

[stone wadi]

That's just the standard German state of mind though 😁

[serene grove]

if I was the kremlin I would keep any proof as kompromat, to threaten ukraine with...not to mention russia maintaining the idea that they have this capability is a feather in their cap when their other military capabilities are, shall we say...in question?

this has been posted before but it bears posting again https://www.businessinsider.com/blinken-slams-russia-military-2nd-strongest-in-ukraine-2023-6

[stone wadi]

IMHO it was likely a proper ship.
The word fartyg would be used in as good as all legal context, for example the law DUI at sea specify "all motor driven fartyg" i.e. a small motor boat is included in that.
So a prosecutor would use fartyg until and if the point whare the fulle name and registration is published

[serene grove]

(maybe I'm just a 12 year old at heart but as a native english speaker fartyg cracks me up every time I read it, it's making it hard to take this discussion seriously lmao)

[hushed karma]

That is a propper suggestion. Would like to see that also. Which means that a scenario of placing charges could rule out for Andromeda. But not its igniting task

[serene grove]

what do you mean by igniting?

[serene grove]

my understanding was whoever placed the charges would have stuck a timer or a sonar modem on them for detonation...no point making two trips

[stone wadi]

Andromeda might have sent signals to the sonar modems

[serene grove]

that seems like a weird thing to have a completely separate ship to do

[stone wadi]

Though if they did then it is going to be recorded in atleast 2 if not 4 nations navy logs

[serene grove]

if they know what to look for

sonar modems seem to be pretty customizable as far as their detectability level

[stone wadi]

Might be that they placed them long before and it needed to basically be programmed to be able to detonate

[serene grove]

ooooh yeah that's a good point

if the big boat that would attract attention could be long gone by the time it blew up...that's helpful

[stone wadi]

It's right outside the main submarine base of Sweden and really close to Bornholm

[serene grove]

they should be digging through their sub hunting data...but there's no way in hell they'll release that info

doesn't the US have hydrophone arrays there too?

[stone wadi]

So I would just assume that wide band listening sonar equipment is plentiful there

[serene grove]

like as part of the whole NATO cooperation program

it would be dumb if it wasn't there tbh

[stone wadi]

Would not be out of the impossible that Denmark have let them put up stuff close to Bornholm

[stone wadi]

The prosecutor likely has access to peaple that have

[serene grove]

also sonar stuff and ULF stuff is super not directional, so it's not like they could have used a really directional signal or something to avoid detection

[stone wadi]

No osint sub hunting program yet? 😁

[serene grove]

I looked into it, hydrophones are STUPID EXPENSIVE

[stone wadi]

Really?
It's just a microphone in the end

[serene grove]

it's not like ADS-B or AIS where you just get a tv tuner and a rubber ducky

[nimble gull]

"finished" 🤣

[serene grove]

oooooh shit some new hobbyist tech came out since I went digging last, this might be doable https://www.instructables.com/Lets-Build-Some-World-Class-Hydrophones/

won't help with historical info though 😦 but perhaps our baltic friends could drop a few of these in the water somehow

[stone wadi]

Or more exotic modes like kilometer wavelength radio but that is even less directional
Might be some really exotic stuff too, but unlikely that Russia has that

[serene grove]

yeah that's ULF

if there's exotic stuff, russia probably has it :p neutrino modems when?

they have a very very interesting network of space-based jamming hardware that appears to be mostly made from repurposed soviet-era spy satellites

[nimble gull]

In the absense of other stuff to work on, I support disproving the Andromeda-hypothesis. But it does make me wonder that (which they also mention in this episode) Russian state and media actors have basically discounted it as ridiculous fiction (which many here seem to agree with). But on the other side we have German investigators, CIA, Dutch MIVD and pretty serious media outlets (Speigel, WaPo, WSJ etc) ... what would the motive be for pushing the Andromeda story if it's false?

Twisting my brain into a pretzel here.

[serene grove]

also like...the only other reasonable explanation for chartering the andromeda when and where they did is "trying to get experience in nasty seas"

if someone did that why not just come out with it?

[stone wadi]

Barking up a stupid tree 🤷

[serene grove]

it's not like it has the capacity to do much smuggling with 6 people on board

or illegal fishing or whatever else people do with small rented sailboats on the baltic sea in bad weather that they don't want talked about

[stone wadi]

Might been some other spy shit that is unrelated to nordstream 🤣

[serene grove]

oh god imagine if you were just there doing some random sigint mission or surveillance on some tanker and this ended up blowing your cover

[stone wadi]

Likely not deep cover though but just new IDs

[serene grove]

this literally happened with a storm and a chartered yacht last month https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1685430550-10-ex-intelligence-agents-onboard-capsized-boat-in-italy-return-to-israel-report

[stone wadi]

LoL

[serene grove]

they were just on vacation doing a booze cruise okay!

[nimble gull]

But isn't that where we are now? Maybe if it came out immediately that it was Ukraine, sure. But now? We got through winter, we support Ukraine, I think it'd be more high-fives if it's proven that Ukraine was behind it all

[stone wadi]

I wonder more who even rent out a ship when it's rough seas

[serene grove]

that's what axel and I said :p very reasonable position tbh

but I am also thinking about russia keeping it in their back pocket for A) to threaten ukraine with (even if it makes no sense from a western perspective) B) give the impression that they have the capability to do something like that even if they didn't

[nimble gull]

It makes current and future outrage about Russias oversteps ring a bit hollow, and may behind the scenes reduce willingness to provide advanced arms etc but nothing really changes

If northern Europe would have frozen over this winter, maybe it would have been a different story

[serene grove]

russian red lines are a lie, NATO red lines are a lie

I think both sides know this about each other

but yes the warm winter cannot be underestimated

[nimble gull]

To some degree... when that anti-air missile crossed over into Poland it seemed like we were 5 minutes away from nuclear war

[serene grove]

nobody is nuking anybody, it's not gonna happen

[hushed karma]

If the charge was setup with a ignition device which is possibly activated by a signal. It might be needed to be in the proximity or range to be able to activate that device.

[serene grove]

right right that's what I was thinking...sonar or ULF radio

I wouldn't have brought 6 people to run a mission like that but it's the best thing I can think of besides they were shuttling them to a larger boat with diving equipment

like you need, what, 2-3 people max? 2 people who can run the boat and 1 who can run the comms gear

[nimble gull]

On the previous conversation of European/US/NATO reactions. If it does turn out that Poland was involved (or another close ally, but I think specifically Poland), that may be the only thing that could cause real strife.

[hushed karma]

That is also a good point. In fact. Two would be enough. And than. Since there was proven that there was a Russian lady on board of the Andromeda , it also points towards Russia again. The erratic behavior shown and proven plus the erratic sail in stormy wether makes it all together strange enough not to consider a relation between the two described vessels and there timing of there behavior. For me. I will keep this in mind. Put it on the wall in my brain. And to be honest. There will be more fogg brought out loudly in news and such before real facts can and might be distracted and clarified. That is for sure

[hushed karma]

Might be so. But within the Andromeda where several persons from several country’s on board, Ukraine, Polish and Russian. There were 6 of them. Who knows even more nationality’s than we know of now at this moment. And that only if the Andromeda has a role in it. Do not forget the fact that so far it is circumstantial evidence on the Andromeda. And at the same time, the bad weather sail trip with that many on board makes it erratic unless it was a bad weather training of that crew. And a known fact is that sportman have almost all no issues like country’s might have with each others nationality. At this moment in time. And taken all in consideration for me there are still far to many inconclusive possibility’s around the event itself and how it was acted by who. But as written. I still cant rule out anything. Even the lesser plausible scenarios in this.

[serene grove]

bleh nationality has nothing to do with who someone is working for

especially a segment of maritime folks who seem to be accustomed to flags of convenience :p

[serene grove]

tbh it's really not, and that instructables article actually has a pretty good intro to why if you're interested

(it's a really really really good article, I'm definitely going to order the parts for this and try to build one so I can listen to my aquarium cichlids doing their breeding calls)

[hushed karma]

The electro technical end of it is not much more than a dedicated microphone. But. It needs a bunch of stuff to operate within depths and to receive what you want to hear. Therefore there are a real big load of types of devices. And to characterize it as a simple microphone is really very short in thoughts and description of it.

[serene grove]

yeah there are some construction and electrical issues (e.g. grounding, density) that need to be solved for it to work at all when with a regular microphone you can just wing it and fix it in software essentially

but this guy solved them in a repeatable way or so he claims anyway

[hushed karma]

He claims 🤔😉 but no real proof sofar given

[serene grove]

I mean he published a bunch of soundcloud recordings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UQfPzAmIP8

and this youtube video ^

it could be faked but unlikely

it's not a question about whether he did it, it's a question of whether it's repeatable enough to be worth trying to recreate

[hushed karma]

I always want that second opinion of his findings. Tiktok and youtube and pinterest are loaded with stuff that are true and utterly nonsense.

[serene grove]

anyway if my version of it works, I definitely wanna make a bunch to send out to people for an osint hydrophone network, that would be cool as all hell

[hushed karma]

Setting up a private global network to do the public in-depended surveillance ? But. Lets stay on topic

[serene grove]

not private just like adsb exchange

or globaltuners

this is very much on topic here tbh, if this had been in place at the time this whole investigation could have wrapped up by now

that's why I get so frustrated that the countries who do have this data don't appear to be using it or if they are they're keeping it very quiet

a lot of the AIS and ADS-B data feeds that are used routinely here are from crowdsourced listening networks

it's just a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to put an antenna on a pole than drop hydrophones in the sea

[hushed karma]

True that it would make this investigation a lot more easy. And the way different authority’s do not inform the people is and allways be a fact and an issue to deal with.

[serene grove]

actually...I wonder if there are any commercial hydrophone networks that sell their data? like the satellite imaging companies do, maybe the expected customers would be marine shipping or petro/mineral development people?

[elfin cradle]

Underwater modems aren't that expensive (a few k to 10k $), especially if you are a state that is going to blow up a 11B$ pipeline. JANUS compliant 😉 https://www.popotomodem.com/products/#acoustic-modems

[serene grove]

that's super duper expensive compared to other sigint stuff like AIS and ADS-B rx gear

like I mean for crowdsourced operation

not for controlling explosives

I'm going along the angle of "could we have collected all that fun fun classified hyrdophone array data by ourselves if we'd known ahead of time"

could have heard anything from ROV operations (if you're super lucky) to detonation signal (if you know what to look for)

[elfin cradle]

Russia has a static sonar System (Podsolnukh-E/Sever-E) in the Baltics. But that is all information that is in the public domain.

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/stationary-electronic-systems/sever-e/

[serene grove]

yup and so do a bunch of NATO countries

but we're never ever ever going to see that data

[elfin cradle]

Almost everything were dismantled in the 90s sadly. Especially the Germans

[hushed karma]

In this source there is mentioned that a Swedish Lithuanian investigation would or could have data. But is from 2012. So that is old. But shows non the less that there is a huge amound of data available after the 1990 where @marcusw refers to. Does anybody have entrance to the Lithuanian side as possible source for info ? Mostly as possible non involved source in this matter. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221682936_The_Use_of_Bathymetric_Data_in_Society_and_Science_A_Review_from_the_Baltic_Sea

As this picture from that source clearly showed how heavy monitored this specific spot is.

[limber hinge]

Quite a while back I looked for better weather data and could not find it. If there are weather buoys in the Baltic that would be good, but I could not find them.
Wind speed is greatly effected by land masses, even low marshes or grass land. Wind speed picks up significantly at the land/sea border.
It is difficult to say actual wind speed on scene but it will almost surely be more than this, but probably not 2x this speed. Wave height can be gauged by looking at a Beaufort Scale chart and interpolating.

[hushed karma]

As extra info. Within the reporting of. “NORD STREAM 2 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT, DENMARK, SOUTH-EASTERN ROUTE “ i found a chart with the busiest ship routes around the pipelines. Which shows that the points of sabotage where just below the busiest routes.

[limber hinge]

RE: # of people to run a boat.
Analogy. Consider a caravan journey of 6 days, at 50kph, non-stop or 7,200km. How many people do you need to do this? 1 person can “operate” the vehicle while others sleep and attend to themselves. 2 would be bare minimum, 3 a bit better but still arduous. Now you have a boat, you are outside in the weather not in a comfy seat, it is cold at night, nothing is stable even when you sleep. Now you have technical tasks to accomplish as well which require concentration and precision. How many of the crew get sea sick? Six does not sound unreasonable. But 6 on a small yacht for prolonged periods is difficult. No personal space and everyone needs to have a good attitude or personal relations go sour fast.

[hushed karma]

I agree. That is why i stated that at least 2 would be able to do the job. But 6 was a crowded number.

This map shows some more info why probably these spots also were chosen to blow up the pipelines. The rather proximity of munition dumpsites there. In casu WWI and WWII war material and such explosives.

[limber hinge]

RE words for ships/vessels. While terms MAY have specific meaning in a technical frame and may be properly used by experts it is not useful to expect non experts speaking to a non-technical audience to use those same words with precision. In USA English the words “boat, yacht, ship, vessel” can all be used interchangeably amongst non-seafaring people. The word “cutter” has a vast variation in meaning and the meaning varies with the context. It could mean 1) a Coast Guard ship, 2) any sailboat with 2 foresails 3) a sailboat with multiple foresails and a bowsprit, 4) a small sailing warship, and I probably missed a few.

[hushed karma]

Source is report As mentioned before and shows activities with military purposes.

The obvious frequent presence of military activities just below the spot were NS1 is damaged make me certain that there must be far more detailed reports about which ship or other kind of vessel was at that time in that proximity. As the map of @eager moss clearly shows. And is comparable with the top section of this picture.

That map of @eager moss to prevent scrolling back. Plus this map from @pure finch. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072947857654554624/1118608473622597712/mj2u.mp4

[hushed karma]

Here from the same earlier named report the construction of the pipes involved. This for understanding what we see in the aftermath of the ruptured pipes in pictures.

[limber hinge]

GUESS or conjecture.
From the small amount of AIS data we have it may suggest NATO ships are operating search patterns. They do at times deviate, which I think means they were investigating something of interest. If you look at the depth it appears they were interested in the very deepest area. Perhaps they were searching for a sub and assumed it would be hiding in the depths. They (NATO) did not mentally connect sub reports with Minerva Julia or NordStream and ended up searching the wrong area. Pretty embarrassing if true.
But also we may be seeing only some of the NATO vessels, and others were observing MJ, but had their AIS OFF. What is obvious is NATO had unusual interest in this area at that time and were executing unusual maneuvers, possibly search patterns.

[hushed karma]

So true. In the report i spoke of and showed some info out of , there are also charts where fishingvessels and their habitat to fish was shown. And charts were busy sea traffic uses its way up and down the Baltic sea. That exact same area is known to be very busy. But i only see some on the footage of @pure finch. And made me wonder. Was that due to bad weather and high waves at that time that only larger vessels were seen there ?

[stone wadi]

I am in northern europe (Sweden) Gas is less than 2% of or total heating and less than 5% of those 2% is from russia.
and we are likely one of the ones of the 3 other northern nations that use most russian gas

[hushed karma]

I do think that at this moment most Russian gas flows thru and towards Ukraine and Turkey and China besides their satellite states. Only a very small amount is still used in Europe. Do not forget the very large gasfields in the utter east of Russia

[stone wadi]

the 5% of 2% was befor the war

now it will be 0%

we basically don't use gas for heating regardless

[hushed karma]

It is a good thing to also know here who has dependency’s on that gas. And who do not.

The reason why these lines were blown up is stil as clear as the mud them explosions stirred up

[stone wadi]

https://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=137000&r=eu&l=en

[hushed karma]

Yeah. Nice. But whome is using Russian gas. As by example the Netherlands produces most of its own used gas

As of Norway and the Brtish

[stone wadi]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/04/how-did-one-european-country-liberate-itself-from-russian-gas/

[hushed karma]

Now. That is clear talk 😎

[stone wadi]

it's msotly germany in the end, Itally is likely more reliant from it being cheep than actuall needing to source it from Russia

[hushed karma]

Now. Why would any of these countrys stop that flow towards Germany

[hushed karma]

Correct.

[stone wadi]

Poland have thretened and done some blackmail about it previously, that was part of the reason for NS1 to start with

[hushed karma]

Or. To be the devils advocate. Why would Germany blow up their own pipe

[stone wadi]

to shut up some noisy "local" groups

[hushed karma]

Besides that. War in Ukrain. Strugles between former easter block country’s and the US

[hushed karma]

Might be. Or Germany dived under for not starting that NS2

[stone wadi]

?
Poland and Hungary are the only ones in any other kind of struggle with the US than the western EU

[stone wadi]

Funny thing with that
NS2 still have a significantly higher capacity than both NS1 pipes ever had

[vocal violet]

Italy has had historically a close relationship with the USSR and later with Russia compared to the rest of Western Europe. Berlusconi's friendship with Putin was famous but it's by far not the single example and that led also to strong business ties between them

[stone wadi]

their is also the point of the price contract for NS1 being significantly lower than NS2

[nimble gull]

Germany, Denmark and many others do though. And regardless, freezing temperatures would have caused spillover into all energy forms (electricity prices in Sweden).

[stone wadi]

Now I am a bit prone to nitpick but that is basically describing how he cast a microphone in resin, so in some ways it is still a microphone, even if a bit of a rare one

[nimble gull]

The sourse of the gas matters less on this weird common market of ours... we know that.

[stone wadi]

yeah, though that is a large part from the lack of transfer capacity between north and south

[nimble gull]

Denmark uses basically no Russian gas. But I know my gas bill (heating) last year was about 4x of 2021

[stone wadi]

I would use a slow cure low molecular weight proper epoxy resin instead of a flexible hygroscopic urethanes
Would likely make the sound uptake better, (of it is lighter or hevier than water you can modify that with fishing waight and plastic marbles or anything like that.)

The cable is also some audophile cable, I would prefer to find one actually rated for underwater operation, even if you need to do some of the sound processing in the unit and send a digital signal through the cable

[stone wadi]

your electricy prices was absurd from time to time
I was hourly prices at almsot 400€/Mwh last fall

if you hadent made that much fuss about the nuclera power plant that would have been less of a issue

[hushed karma]

You all know. If Putin or Biden farts. Al eco economics and markets go hey wire. If one coffee bush freezes. All coffee around the world in stok rises in price. The same with oil and gas or potatoes. So. That power is totally to the to big company’s. But lets get back to topic. Why ? Who? Howe?. With what? And why there.

I went back to the public reports around the developing af this NS2. Found a load of knowledge of that area and the construction of that pipeline. It could witstand even a minor blow of old ammo out of wars in history. That sturdy it was. That said. Only a certain charge is able to blow that pipe in this way whole and whole thru. There are only a small types of charges able to do so. All of those types needs to be installed around the pipe , or a con-caved charge imbedded and sturdy on the bottom next to the pipe to be able to have this effect. Wikipedia in this was my second source on types of charges. Now. Reasoning from there i presume the time needed to install them charges needed time. So far we have only one vessel that toke that time there. The Andromeda as a very small sailing-ship of just 15 metre in bad wheater and high waves at that time it was out of port might only be able to do so if it had the time period and skills on board. Question 1 is than. How long was the Andromeda at sea ? What were the skills of the persons on board. That to possibly rule the Andromeda out as installer of the charges. To be franck. They could have detonated the charge. So they are till proven otherwise, not of the hook and still possible participating party in this, even if installing them charges proved to be untrue.

That said. Who had the biggest interest to blow them pipes. I collected a load on info. But am not an mm further than before in solving answers.

I personally see no positive effect for Ukraine. I do think of other baltic surrounding nations for economical and political reasons.

[stone wadi]

cornel musteard in the pavilion with the candlestick
I.e. Russia with diver from a large ship or submarine

[hushed karma]

There was a proven Russian lady on board of the Andromeda. But was that a diver that had the skills and equipment to dive over 80 to 90 meters deep in that weather at that time ????

[stone wadi]

Andromeda is exeptionally unlikely to have anything significantly to do with the sabotage

[nimble gull]

Hehe agreed... although I am actually Swedish originally. Mixed feelings on that old plant. 😉

[eager moss]

there's information available from hindcasting which provides statistical data for metocean conditions, including wind and waves, but what I'm trying to find is the recorded data for specific time periods ie September 2022. I agree that the conditions over water are usually more severe but that's because of the influence of a large landmass and/or topographic features. Bornholm is a very small landmass in the Baltic but there will be some topographic effect on winds. For the purposes of identifying variability during the September period (for example), the difference between a recorded 5 to 10 knots and 15 to 20 knots will be greater than variability between Bornholm and the surrounding sea ?

[stone wadi]

the water will be calm below the surface
But you will still have a problem getting into the boat again.

[eager moss]

Some hindcast data for wind and waves a) near the NS1 rupture sites ENE of Bornholm b) near the NS2 rupture site SSE of Bornholm. It appears to show that Bornholm has a negligible impact on wind speed but i would treat this with some caution before assuming it applies to short term (ie daily) conditions.

source https://www.seastates.net/explore-data/

[vocal violet]

When is this data from?

[eager moss]

2018 is referenced on the charts as publication date but the data set from which it's derived isn't stated (that I can find)

[vocal violet]

That's a copyright sign, bro

[eager moss]

"but the data set from which it's derived isn't stated (that I can find)"

[vocal violet]

Here the direct links to the plots:
https://www.abpmer.net/DataExplorer/viewer/?ID=wndspd_nsb_4m_55p33N_015p60E

https://www.abpmer.net/DataExplorer/viewer/?ID=wndspd_nsb_4m_54p93N_015p47E

For what the site tells, these are just probabilistic values for averages across a very long period of time

Not sure how useful is that information tbh

[hushed karma]

That is conclusive for one major point in this topic. And that is : If weather was as bad as suggested. The Andromede only could have a role in detonation of the charge. This is very worthy to get deeper in to. Wheather stations around Bornholm must have records about that period.

[velvet rain]

This has already been discussed extensively here.

[eager moss]

yes, that's where i got the plots from, there is a reference to the source beneath the charts; and yes they are hindcast which means they are probablistic values derived from data for a period of several years (which is undefined). the information is not useful for defining the conditions that applied each day during September 2022 but is useful for describing prevailing wind and wave conditions at the site. The usefullness of any data is determined by how one wants to use it ?

[velvet rain]

For example a discussion of wave heights based on a German report on the Nord Stream topic somewhere around here:
#1072947857654554624 message

[vocal violet]

Uhm, no, data is data and it just stands within a context. All you can tell me here is that at X hour any time of the day there are these different probabilities

[hushed karma]

You do mean also the combi between the wheater situation and this table on wave hights @J_K ?? #1072947857654554624 message

[velvet rain]

That was @strange bane adding helpful context as usual.

[eager moss]

i guess you're jumping in to a conversation and getting the context wrong. you use whatever data you have to do what you want with it; if you find something not useful to your purposes there is no mandate for you to pay it any attention.

[strange bane]

A wave height of a metre or two isn’t terribly bad

Yea it’s a little uncomfortable for a yacht

But a confident yacht skipper or basically any commercial/military vessel would be able to work in that

[eager moss]

this is possibly what i was looking for - what location is it for ?

[hushed karma]

Sorry i forgot that it was allready there. And yes. That is significant and underscribes the technical theorie that the Andromeda only was able to be at most, a part of a possible detonating role or non at all. With the charts read. And the waves caused by that wind. Behind an iland that had allmost no infuance on that weather fenomena at that time there , i can not conclude anything else than that an explosives installing operation was impossible.

[vocal violet]

So you tell me that you look for data and you decide what to do with it whether it validates your purpose or not?

[velvet rain]

The report should be a few messages above that, I haven't checked. But if I remember correctly, it was implied to be for the sites of the explosions.

[hushed karma]

Yes. True. But the Andromeda is only 15 metre and with open tub. Etc. It has likely no means to stay put at one spot, long enough to give divers te possibility to go 80 to 90 metres deep. That takes hours on decompression time per spot.

[velvet rain]

I'm not and I don't know where you're getting that from.

[eager moss]

the reply wasn't to you, sorry for the confusion i'll delete

[hushed karma]

I just followed the source url of that and found a lot of charts stating that weather was in a condition that waves were high. Not hughe. But wind and waves were to ruff for a light vessel as The Andromeda to unload , send divers down. Stay exact on spot to pick them up.

[velvet rain]

I would recommend being careful about editing and deleting in the middle of an ongoing discussion. This can lead to a lot of confusion for people reading this later.

[hushed karma]

That rules installation of the charges out. But. As stated. Not the detonation role of them charges it might still have had. For that a getting in to the proximity there was enough.

Here looking back how weather acts upon a ship at certain wind speeds and wave highs. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072947857654554624/1085285862901825606/Images-of-the-Beaufort-Scale-from-Ref-3.png

[velvet rain]

Do you have a source for that picture? So we can have this documented here properly.

[hushed karma]

I have seen also above. Urley in this topic a chart of the windspeed. #1072947857654554624 message

[strange bane]

Just for clarity

That’s basically what I use

[hushed karma]

That bleu chart was published in here. #1072947857654554624 message

[strange bane]

Force 5 is a normal day at sea lol

[limber hinge]

Sara. Things are much different on a light sailboat than a commercial ship. If one is simply sailing point A to B yes, doable with a half decent captain. If one is attempting to stay on a station with some precision, then there are more difficulties. Being short not to belabor the point, a yacht like Andromeda is optimized to provide stability when sailing. The stability is derived from the aerodynamics of the keel and the sails. Stop the boat (lay ahull) and those stabilizing factors disappear and the boat will lay beam to the wind and become far less stable. There are intermediate mitigating maneuvers (heave to) but then the boat is only slowed and it is difficult to do with this type of boat. Typically it would take an experienced captain quite a while to work it out, if is possible at all.

[strange bane]

“Small craft warnings/advisories” or whatever your local version are only issued in most countries at F6 or F7

[strange bane]

Sure, but I think we’re getting too in the weeds to debate the specific navigational necessities of how you’d do it.

[hushed karma]

It was between 32 and 36 knots. Is force 7 to 8. And that is left lowest picture of that bleu chart with pictures.

[strange bane]

It also should be kinda difficult to find something at 80m down, but it’s clearly possible.

[hushed karma]

So SaraL. I think you downplayed the weather a bit here.

[strange bane]

This is wave height

It’s suggesting that only wave heights of less than 1m are good

Wave heights on the Beaufort scale for 1m is force 3

[hushed karma]

How much time does a diver needs for that depth ? Ill find out.

[strange bane]

Force 3 is a gentle breeze

It’s barely enough to shake leaves on a tree

[hushed karma]

Yeah. But there was a windforce of 6 to 7 at least.

[strange bane]

And not enough for a flag to fly

[limber hinge]

Agreed, why I was trying to keep it short.

[strange bane]

If we assume the Minerva Julie was involved

It’s providing a lee wind

Lots of assumptions you can make

The pipelines blew up, someone was clearly up to something

[eager moss]

Is it sea or swell ? (the translation of 'wellengang' that i got was swell). I found wind records for September at Bornholm; I was trying to find wave records for the month.

[strange bane]

Swell is the maximum height it will reach

Wave height is usually a bit lower

Maybe half

[limber hinge]

Wave heights reported or predicted are for the dominant 2/3 of waves. Some bigger, most smaller.

[strange bane]

Yep, that ^

Swell is specifically important because you need to know if the largest wave will come over the top of your freeboard

[limber hinge]

This discussion of weather is getting a bit weird. We could easily to a 3 or 4 page dissertation on sea conditions; dominant wave trains, swell, wave period, interference, etc.
About all we know is the wind was likely a bit higher on scene than reported at . Very roughly 20 knots or Force 5. Not horrible conditions but challenging for working overboard.

[hushed karma]

I value a conclusion and facts stated without other vessels than the one we discussed at this moment ( Andromeda) to determine if that short light vessel was able to install or not due to weather

[strange bane]

It probably couldn’t sit over the top for hours

But I think it could absolutely sit over for maybe 10-15 minutes with a bit of effort

And then just rely on the diver carrying a recovery buoy/flare if you really wanted to be obvious/light

[velvet rain]

This will never happen. You can always add other assumptions. That's the entire problem with the recent discussion here. All the speculation is simply not verifiable.

[strange bane]

As Eliot said at the start

[limber hinge]

Such a conclusion is impossible. I believe “highly unlikely” is pretty good.

[strange bane]

We can’t osint the seafloor

[velvet rain]

This server is focused on open-source investigations. Anything that cannot be verified is more or less off-topic here.

[strange bane]

I’d go 50/50

If the conspiracy behind it as is being told is true

I don’t think it would be terribly hard for a state actor equipped unit to achieve this.

But if it’s just a bunch of randos

Probably more unlikely than not.

It entirely depends on if you believe the suggestions of state backing in the reporting.

[rustic bay]

Yes this server is for OSINT discussions, finding something like the state actor who had enough reason to blow the Nord Stream is not going to be possible with this information

[velvet rain]

The early activity in this channel was focused on finding actual, verifiable information about the Andromeda story (webcam footage, social media photos, other data etc.). After the Andromeda angle kinda dried up, it has turned into endless circles of wild speculation.

[rustic bay]

Right, that's not what we do here

[strange bane]

Honestly, we’re not going to find any other data, the company we were debating about at the very start was a couple weeks ago identified

The only other lead is to try to figure out who the Western Europe based Ukrainian business man the alternative reporting was talking about

[hushed karma]

The depth at those spots is around 80 metres. Stated in the reports discussed urlier.

[limber hinge]

Sara,
Fir me that they returned the boat dirty but unharmed says a lot. In any scenario you need to handle a lot if hard heavy equipment on an unstable platform. The risk of doing damage, a tank sliding into a seat, is very high. The boat is not equipped to hold heavy stuff in place. But the boats condition was documented upon return, dirty but no damage. Says a lot to me.

[hushed karma]

Decompession tabel used by the Dutch Marines. https://magazines.defensie.nl/allehens/2015/03/08-marineduikers-testen-duiktabellen

[strange bane]

Ye, the dive is definitely possible.

[velvet rain]

I guess we're back now in the diving feasibility phase of the #1072947857654554624 cycle

[limber hinge]

I think we all agreed the dive was technically possible some months ago.

[rustic bay]

Yes we have discussed the diving quite a lot. @hushed karma to see the previous discussion you can use the search

[strange bane]

I mean from the start we weren’t even doing much OSINT

[hushed karma]

Ok. I did not start at the beginning of this topic. Ill look in to that. NP

[strange bane]

We were literally just chasing what those journos knew but wouldn’t say

Essentially forcing their hand to actually identify it.

Well, not strictly in that sense, but ykwim

[hushed karma]

I never use journalism as a source for building a theory. They are to scoop driven.

[strange bane]

Ya, basically what happened is German journos said that they set off in a yacht from Rostock

So we went on a mad dash to identify yacht rentals in Rostock

We identified Mola in Hohe Dune

[velvet rain]

I mean, there were pretty significant efforts to find webcam footage and other pictures of the Andromeda. I would definitely count that as OSINT activities.

[strange bane]

And then we ran through their inventory

And then we ran through the annoying af webcam archive of Yachthafenresidenz HD

Hell, we even ran down a lead based on a pizza takeaway company having a company event at the time

And they had a drone

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gG3m4V9F0Ow

But from what’s public

Aka, in that video

There’s no Bavaria Cruiser 50

We never identified anything of the Cruiser 50 being at Mola’s stuff around the time

We searched the like 20000 images of YHRZ HD

And I think we could a couple of their area and a couple we think are the right boat

[velvet rain]

Maybe there are webcams in the supposed Polish harbour? That's the only new OSINT-related lead from recent reports.

[strange bane]

Before we would go in that direction

There’s just so f*cking many

Remember how the journalists got the wrong Wieck

[velvet rain]

Oh, I'm not saying it's feasible. I was just trying to suggest examples for what (I think) should be happening in this channel.

[strange bane]

The only other thing is now that the company was identified

You could in theory try to identify the internet presence of those in that company

Because there is interesting bits of info about them (one of them being a collaborator in occupied Ukraine)

But not something we can do in this chat because it involves identifiable persons and suggestions of criminal activities

But it’s probably the only viable thing to follow, if we never found Andromeda in Rostock, Wieck or Denmark, I doubt it will turn up in Poland.

[velvet rain]

Seems like a good point to wind this down a bit then. Until new information (or ideas) turn up.

[strange bane]

Admittedly, the company name is in public and it’s literally a Google search to get the names of them from Polish business records websites

We’ve identified one of the faces used in the reporting

To an VK account with one picture

Last used in 2017

Again, another thing we can’t do here because it’s an individual, criminal activity alleged, etc etc etc

Essentially, there is stuff to research, just not publicly here. At least unless you wanted to post anything you find with names blacked out, pixelation, etc

But it’s another case of chasing what journalists already know

[hushed karma]

Clearly did not got further on this topic. And decided that others should stop digging in gathering more info and data and adding that up unless there are names blacked out and such. While clearly did not received a more detailed result other than you need to google ? Well. As i am not that easely chased off. So. I will do my research still. Read here all that is done. And correct. There was doublures in wat was done these last two weeks. But hey. That is always a good thing to possibly get just another shiny detail that might have missed. So. Yeah. Ill continu and do hope some others with me.

[velvet rain]

Sara is referring to the server rules here. Publicly identifying people because you suspect they might have been involved is very much not tolerated here. You can always check the rules (specifically rule 6) under #rules to be sure. If you have any questions about that, I'm sure @hushed bay or one of the mods would be happy to clarify.

[hushed karma]

Ah. Okay. And no. I was not intending to do so. And yes i had allready asked Giancarlo. And yes i am new in reactions but a long time reader. And i am puzzling and try to rule out on possibly’s with upcoming new details or gathering facts that might be missed. Or adding facts up after they were published and scrutinized in here.

And another mind with possibly another point of view should always be welcome. Even if stuff scrutinized again. And again. That brings at the end results. Or proofs that soms leads really are going nowhere. That mistaken cleared. I am reading all that was done before. And yes. Some was done again. And i will investigate again that wat was done in the hope to find missed details or connections between facts or none facts. And that all documented with viable sources.

[thick crag]

The company is "BB Aero," right? Haven't been here too much.

[hushed karma]

Do you mean this publication where this company was mentioned ? https://brian-whit.medium.com/nord-stream-investigation-another-strange-travel-firm-comes-to-light-bed1b61d9d40

[strange bane]

Yes

There’s two firms

Both with the same website (template) with the same fake testimonials.

And connected by the owner on Polish business registrations.

Feeria Lwowa is the one the journalists went to, BB Aero is the one you can find by searching the CEO’s name.

[strange bane]

And just to clarify, I’ve been involved here since the very beginning, the Deleted User you see is my old account (got locked out of it), but I’m not telling you to not do it.

What I’m saying is that in an ideal world, with OSINT you can provide a smoking gun to corroborate traditional source reporting, i.e. webcams in Bucha, but I think as Eliot said, you can’t OSINT the sea floor.

So what’s the next best thing? Trying to at least verify elements of the reporting. So we are told that the Andromeda left Höhe Dune on or around the evening of the 6th, morning of the 7th. We chased down every archived webcam of the area, even using the map of the marina to try to figure out the exact berths (of Mola) it would most likely be in.

We have some suggested Andromeda/Bavaria Cruiser 50s in that webcam footage but nothing open and shut and we’ve literally used every webcam in the area.

[strange bane]

So again, a cold lead.

So where else to go.

We chased down every picture taken and geolocated to Christiansø during the period in question. We even emailed the harbour master to ask if they had marine diesel (they don’t, despite what the internet says).

So no leads there.

So we had a picture of the Andromeda in winter storage on a stand. We initially thought it was in the main town, but it’s actually on some pier in the middle of an old DDR fast anti ship missile boat base, we tried to figure out how long it was there, but unfortunately it was too cloudy over the winter to go back far enough to be helpful.

[hushed karma]

You are writing it was docked near or on an old anti ship missile boat base ? Is that area still under military control ? Even unclear pictures would be helpful if there are more than one to analyze

[velvet rain]

It was not docked, it was in winter storage. You can find the discussions on this here by searching for "winter storage" or "Dranske".

[strange bane]

No, not since reunification

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t3_7RhqsahE

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hK9LVqvNPDQ

There’s proposals to turn it into a holiday camp but for the time being it seems that Mola rents the pier as winter storage to get its vessels out of the water.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Am+alten+Militärhafen/@54.6078282,13.2292604,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipMc3MdKyfig89swPZn-hRWaezlPnlnDyQsHlcAj!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipMc3MdKyfig89swPZn-hRWaezlPnlnDyQsHlcAj%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i4032!8i3024!4m6!3m5!1s0x47ab57dac0e1df71:0x2665bf945b7c95c4!8m2!3d54.5979328!4d13.2345383!16s%2Fg%2F11q94dd2m0 @hushed karma

See the red stuff?

But yea, we even have photos of onboard the yacht

This is the annual winter move of Mola’s yachts to Rugen (Wieck)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3HCopNOP0

Suspect yacht:

Name: Andromeda
MMSI: 211597740
Callsign: DK7033
Homeport: Breege
Sportbootkennzeichen: HST (Hansestadt Stralsund) 311-199
Current Location: 54.596962, 13.231948

[thick crag]

Thank you very much.

[hushed karma]

@strange bane. Thank you. Indeed helpful. I will look in to this later on. I am at a concert atm 😅

[strange bane]

Also remember that the Andromeda isn’t under SOLAS

So it’s not required to carry an AIS

And it doesn’t

So you’re not gonna find an electronic signature

[thick crag]

I think it's interesting that BB Aero's website uses filenames that are in Ukrainian instead of Polish, despite being an ostensibly Polish website. See e.g. http://aero-bb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Рисунок1.jpg

Which is Рисунок1.png. https://i.imgur.com/5RiPk5N.png displays similar names. Sorry if this has already been brought up.

[strange bane]

Oh interesting

That hasn’t been brought up.

The two owners are Ukrainian though

One is a collaborator with the Russian occupation, originally from Kerch, I saw reporting that she’s on the Ukrainian website of traitors, haven’t been able to find her though.

The other lives in Kyiv I believe

Or is from Kyiv anyways

[thick crag]

That's so weird.

[strange bane]

https://myrotvorets.center/

Maybe if someone can search in Cyrillic perhaps.

[thick crag]

Just potentially got a huge lead. Context: Gravatar URLs are hashed email addresses, and you can't make a Gravatar account for an email you don't own, of course. So they should only be owned by one person. They're unique.

http://aero-bb.pl/wp-json/wp/v2/users/?per_page=100&page=1 returns the site administrator list with a gravatar URL for the admin.

If you search the gravatar hash, you get a match for "Full-Circle Manufacturing". The admin of https://id-prom.com, id-prom.com/author/id-admin is probably aero-bb.pl/author/adminera the admin of aero-bb.pl. The hash (897065d604ef9b7e28e846e4349d60d0) matches.

The websites also look really similar. They have the same style of top-bar https://i.imgur.com/l9hrFyJ.png.

Both are hosted on 31.131.16.0/24, too. Huh. I don't think that's coincidental.

[strange bane]

I mean, we know they have the same CEO

Also both companies are based out of “front” offices

[thick crag]

that id-prom has the same CEO?

[strange bane]

One in Warsaw

One in Krakow (iirc)

Both places are addresses you can rent and have a couple hundred businesses registered to them

[thick crag]

I haven't seen references to id-prom anywhere, let alone its CEO, but it is registered to Kyiv. But its (caveat: I don't read cyrillic, so it's possible I'm looking at the wrong firm 😓 ) address is only registered to two companies, and they're owned by the same people.

[velvet rain]

Wait, how did you arrive at the assumption that the filenames are Ukrainian then? Рисунок could also be Russian, as far as I know.

[vocal violet]

There are some letters in Ukrainian Cyrillic that are not used in Russian Cyrillic and viceversa, but you need a larger text for that

[velvet rain]

Yeah, but I don't see anything distinctive in the screenshot.

[vocal violet]

Yep, that's the point

It can also be Bulgarian, Serbian, etc

[thick crag]

the fact that the site is hosted on a ukrainian server. it could of course be russian or something else, though

[velvet rain]

That is a very dangerous assumption then.

Especially in this context.

[thick crag]

that's a fair point

I reached out to the person who I think was the admin on Telegram. I'll let you know if I hear back 😅

[velvet rain]

And the 31.131.16.0/24 range seems to belong to vps.ua, a Ukrainian web hosting provider. So I wouldn't necessarily view that as any sort of reliable indication either.
https://ipinfo.io/AS56851/31.131.16.0/24

[thick crag]

It's vps.ua's managed hosting block, yeah. But I would think that the same person registering with the exact same wordpress theme (which few sites on vps.ua use) on the same service is interesting.

[hushed karma]

I know. The search is for images from that area. And they are hard to find a.t.m.

[thick crag]

that's the person who I DM'd on telegram. didn't want to post the email here since it is very easy to tie to an actual person

their linkedin makes it clear that they've managed websites for people though

[civic rapids]

Am I best deleting?

[thick crag]

I'm not the best one to say

[velvet rain]

<@&941484701632307232> should the e-mail address be deleted?

[thick crag]

in any case, to the extent he's relevant, it's that he was paid by someone to create that site. he's not like, a criminal mastermind or something

[hushed karma]

I am investigating that also. Lets keep in mind that anything there is a possibility as false flagg operations as well. I am still keeping an open mind on this

[hushed bay]

Yes please do not no any digging into people here

There's a good reason we don't do that in public at Bellingcat

[civic rapids]

No probs, cheers

[hushed bay]

Because you're likely to hit lots of dead ends

And you don't wanna put some random person on blast on the internet to only find out later they had nothing to do with the thing you're researching

[hushed karma]

In addition to this and reading all stuff presented here back some points that toke my attention. The builders of that BB Aero site grabbed photo’s of the web and used them. That trace is dead end. Than only one real trace to follow is the via Warsaw related Krakov path. As this is a cloud of addresses. It will be hard to unravel this to a proven source with the load of ends going nowhere ( were is warned for) . Further looking in to the imagery of the Andromada. That vessel had a stern that could be raised in bad weather. And lowered and used as a platform for swimming or diving. Which means that this vessel could be used for diving expeditions. But. It is so far not clear how much cargo this ship could carry without getting in a danger zone with the weather conditions known at that period in time there. And. As the seismic reports mentioned from data that there must have been heavy explosives of larger charges, how large would that charge needed to be to substantiate that conclusion. This as possible payload limited weight on board of the Andromeda. So. I start a search to get that public info added as well and will get back on these two details. But. If this was already done, and i missed it, do not hesitate to point that out. Because there are still enough details to bury myself into on this

[hushed karma]

In addition to the stern features i mentioned. And the silhoette it might be the c50. Capable of 11 persons. 6 were mentioned. So at least the weight of 5 persons times average -= 100 kilo could be taken on board with several diving equipments without any problems at all. In mind that a circulair explosion has a low impact as measured on the seismic reports the data of the caused explosion related to that seismic report and the volume of that used charge, comes more important than before . Source = https://www.bavariayachts.com/sailing-yachts/c50/equipment/

[velvet rain]

If I recall correctly, the Cruiser 50 and C50 are different models.

And yes, all of this has been discussed before.

[tidal knoll]

I'm getting dizzy from the circles this thread is going in!

@hushed karma Here's a little tip: if you go to any of the regular channels (the ones with # in front of their name) you can use the search function (denoted by a little looking glass). The search results will include ones from this thread.

[velvet rain]

It's also possible to use in: regions-discussion in the search to limit the results to all posts under the regions-discussion forum. If you use an ambiguous search term, that can reduce the number of false positives from other channels quite a bit. Especially since this is by far the most active post there.

[stone wadi]

bah 1072947857654554624 just show evertime somone have mentioned #1072947857654554624

[strange bane]

Huh?

[thick crag]

The BB Aero designer responded on Telegram and is willing to answer questions. Anything I should ask?

[stone wadi]

that number is the chanel/thread ID
but its not useable in the search field

[strange bane]

Ah

[strange bane]

What do they know about the owners

And have they spoken to police?

[thick crag]

I asked, and I invited him here.

[strange bane]

Oh cool.

[inner sandal]

Was the designer aware that the photos of supposedly satisfied customers were fakes?

[raw nexus]

You can put a keyword at the end of an importand Posting, like #interview #evidence whatever and a list with those get pinned

[hushed karma]

Did all the reading back on the Andromeda last few days. And a real lot of leads and theories were covered. Chapeau for that. Let me explain why i feel that there might still be a missed lead. Yes the Andromeda did sail and had the capacity to dive to that depth in time and with that crew. But why would it get loaded with explosives if the charges were most likely already there ? And with that in mind. There was one charge that did not go off. Why ? Now this must be looked in to as a new point of view ( i did not find it ) Than another to dive into came to mind. These charges are detonated from distances by a signal. Any vessel to close to the gas discharge would have sunk to the bottom there since that gas reduces buoyancy to absolute zero for any vessel. So they used detonators on time or on signal from distance. Them signal on distance devices “talks” between te placer/owner and itself back and forth. That “ talking” device might not been there and could be placed by Andromeda. Or work at one or more was done on the placed devices and needed to be repaired or activated. Time frame and the fact that no one likes those devices to “ talk “ to long in time makes this plausible for them on the Andromeda. So them devices needed to be activated from a shorter or longer distance to be able to “communicate” with its owner over a certain time period. Now is my question here the following one. Is there a source available, or can it be found in any way , that perhaps recorded the activation signals or more in that particular timeframe. I know that the whole bottom there has listening devices. And a digital timer would be the only “silent” device possible to not be noticed. Therefore my question. Is a signal of any kind found or recorded shortly after the voyage, or while returning and on safe distance, of the Andromeda? Its purpose gets clear in that case. In any other scenario it still might be a falls Flagg or unknown non proven matter

[velvet rain]

Could you maybe clarify a few points for me, ideally supported by reliable sources?

• Why are you assuming that the explosives were "most likely already there"?
• What unexploded charge are you referring to? I don't recall reading about anything like that.
• What is the exact communications mechanism/technology you are proposing?

[vocal violet]

I'll add another point:

• Make it more readable. Paragraphs are your friends 😉

[elfin cradle]

• There are no evidence at all for the explosives to be detonate by signal, physics point on the rather the opposite.
• If they were detonated by a signal you dont need to have the ship right over the explosives, you can be up to 3-8km afar. (Experiments in the baltics has shown successful JANUS underwater communication up to double that range).
• if andromeda only were out to detonate the bombs (if it even was near the explosion site) why have that large crew and a such a slow ship? 2 person on a high speed boat can set off the bombs with a JANUS digital underwater modem.

[hushed karma]

Good questions and remarks. Thank you for that. Ill paragraph and answer the questions one by one.

@J_k. I was talking about the aladgetly taken on board explosives of the andromeda as suggested more early in this topic. Thru the “story” itself it is very unlikely that this was needed or the case.

@J_K. On the NS2 there is one charge/ mine/explosive. not detonated and recovered for investigation as also stated in here before as @Oliver Alexander made clear as he quoted Holger Stark stating that the USA had been there allready before other countries could reach that spot.

[limber hinge]

If Andromeda was part of some covert plot why leave such a visible trail except as a false lead?

[tidal knoll]

@hushed karma can you please add links?

[hushed karma]

@J_k. I am not familiar with under surface communication possebillitys. Therefore i need others and must depend on othters .

@elfin cradle. You are right. As i suggested there could be a timer of some sort. But timers does have higher risks of detonating to soon. That is why i suggest that it could more likely be an signal triggered device. But that also is only proven if the recovered charge gives us its information. And as such i stated that you need to be on distance otherwise you go under with your vessel in the blow out of that gas

[velvet rain]

Since you are not adding any links, I had to search for the context myself. And the only match I could find was about dubious claims by Seymour Hersh. Is this what you are referring to?
#1072947857654554624 message

[hushed karma]

@Braekingcraft. I suggested that their task also could be activating a timer, or placing the timer, or activating the signal device

[velvet rain]

I do not understand what you are trying to say here.

[hushed karma]

I am sorry and excuses. I have notes made here. Next time i will preserve the links as well and use them

[velvet rain]

Is what I linked what you are referring to?

You made the claim that there was evidence an undetonated explosive device was retrieved. I am now asking you to provide that evidence.

[hushed karma]

In the ongoing searches there was more and more the idea that it was not possible for the Andromeda to carry that much load on charges needed for these acts. I stated that there was no need to. As them charges itself could very wel in all silence be placed before. Even transmitting devices or timers might not be present at that drop off. But installed later on by the Andromeda. That gives thus crew and trip another meaning and task in this

[hushed karma]

I wil. Give me a moment to search back on that.

[velvet rain]

Okay. So it is not that the explosives were "most likely already there". It is you proposing a hypothesis. Am I understanding this correctly?

[hushed karma]

I found the source. And quoted >> Nothing much new in Hersh's latest Substack post, but a couple of points of interest:

1. He says Holger Stark told him "that officials in Germany, Sweden, and Denmark had decided shortly after the pipeline bombings to send teams to the site to recover the one mine that has not gone off. He said they were too late; an American ship had sped to the site within a day or two and recovered the mine and other materials."

[hushed karma]

Ill get the tag also. #1072947857654554624 message

[velvet rain]

The consensus on Seymour Hersh's reporting here is that it's completely made up.

I would advise against treating him as a reliable source.

[strange bane]

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/despite-deferring-to-the-european

@stark palm did this.

The only American vessel that was near it was many days after

2 weeks later

And was with other NATO vessels

Well, other NATO vessels and Swedish ones

[velvet rain]

Sorry to be this blunt, but what you are doing here is digging up misinformation and adding your own speculation on top.

[strange bane]

So I dunno why the investigators would suggest that when they’d have been aware of the American vessel with their own navies ships was doing something Sussy.

[hushed karma]

I presume that this will be the source of the Herhs claim ?

[strange bane]

No

Oliver Alexander’s reporting rips the asshole out of Hersh.

[velvet rain]

Hersh just invents stuff.

[strange bane]

Look at Oliver’s other reporting

It’s all disproving Hersh’s stuff

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/debunking-seymour-hershs-alta-class

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe

Hersh is just an anti-American/Western, politically motivated “journalist” with an axe to grind.

His big break was My Lai, but since then he went off the deep end into anti Western shit, and has been a useful front for pro Assad, pro anti-Western bull crap.

It’s like asking Chomsky for a balanced take on American foreign policy.

[vocal violet]

Add that he's often appearing on Russian media

[strange bane]

It’s kinda like Wikileaks and Assange

They had a couple big breaks and became the darling of the Western left

And then went off the batshit crazy, anti Western, pro authoritarian political deep end

[velvet rain]

Again, this is a misunderstanding that could've easily been prevented by searching for "Hersh" here. Instead we're just retreading old ground again.

[strange bane]

Hersh may be the “My Lai guy”, but he’s also “Assad didn’t gas bomb his own citizens” and “Bin Laden had been a prisoner of the ISI since 2006 and his killing is a big fat phony” guy.

[hushed karma]

I have read it. But it is pointing and made statements around the exploded area’s. If there was a charge not gone off. It did not provide a leak and therefore vessels inspecting will be of some distance of a leak. However. Hersh is a very questionable source as i have seen. Non the less. There were vessels of the USA there in a search pattern before Danish Swedish or German vessels.

[strange bane]

The leaks are massive hazards to navigation

Makes sense that government vessels in the area would be chilling out near it to tell people to buzz off

[strange bane]

Where is the source to your last sentence

Oh the Hersh - Holger Stark thing?

[velvet rain]

But there is no evidence that there was an unexploded charge. It's pure, unsubstantiated speculation. Which the mods here discouraged multiple times.

[strange bane]

There’s been an “explosive charge”

Which turned out to be a random flare

After it was recovered

And a boot

Which people tried to suggest was a specific type of “NATO diver boot”

But again, utter nonsense

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/06/05/nord-stream-expedition-official-investigators/

The Grayzone 🤮

Which makes no sense on multiple points

1. It doesn’t even match

[velvet rain]

Grayzone will always find a boot to lick.

[strange bane]

2. The super specialist elite advanced fancy amazing killer NATO SEALs left a boot behind?

Working at sea myself, I’m going to anecdotally suggest that shockingly, people working at sea dump shit at sea (even though they aren’t supposed to)

Oh, and to raise a continued point

It’s been far too long since the incident happened to call the site “sterile” anymore.

Even Gazprom has had a OSV above the sites and ROV down there

[hushed karma]

No. I made that out from this article. And the patterns of vessels there In it there are search pattern. There might be more https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/despite-deferring-to-the-european

[hushed bay]

lol that Grayzone article rocks

They bend over backwards in the article to blame NATO for hte boot, and then the article just completely undermines that conclusion

[tidal knoll]

Like a leaky tub.

[strange bane]

Can we make an emoji of the boot?

[hushed bay]

haha great idea

If someone does please ping me, otherwise I'll do it later this weekl

[strange bane]

I’ll make it, unless someone can make one better 😛

@hushed bay you have two options

One by @velvet rain

One by me.

[hushed bay]

Done! Thank you!

[strange bane]

[velvet rain]

[strange bane]

These boots were made for lyin

and thats just what they'll do

[strange bane]

To get back on topic, doesn't that just show that there was a US vessel there on October 8th?

there was definitely vessels there before that

[nimble gull]

That boot isn’t even a match, or am i crazy?

[tidal knoll]

No, that's the problem with their argument. On one of

[nimble gull]

Actually never mind, don’t want to go down that rabbit hole

Well, if anything the boot story (I hadn’t read this before) gives me a lot more hope for the investigations. Water clarity/video quality is a lot clearer than previous videos made it seem possible in this area.

Grayzone is so weird. Sometimes it seems their reporters actually do some pretty serious work, heavy lift FOIA digging etc. And then stuff on this level… 😵‍💫

[tired monolith]

easier to fool more people if parts looks more credible, works kinda like RU where its not too important what exactly people consider true but instead appealing to people by offering things that looks interesting if you distrust anything left politically / governments

I guess its the internet version on steroids of what they did to research when bad actors started paying for competing research offering other "explanations" and "facts" to compete with credible research

[hushed karma]

Well. For me it is as important do get non related facts proven out of the way as proven facts added that are checked and checked again. The combination of factors within all these published data could also give a direction or lead to search in. So yeah. I like to look deeper in any vessel movements there within that timeframe. But than a smaller timeframe immediate after the explosions. Before them investigations started. So. I am not done here yet. And. Learning a lot. That is for sure.

[stone wadi]

🤣
Any ship that tried that would have been sunk

[stone wadi]

Good luck getting a that clear image in the Baltic at more than 1-2m deepth
Or sand that nice looking

[stone wadi]

In my opinion Herze has become one of those you can just make the opposite inference from what they say and then you are 99.99% sure to have the truth in the matter

[inner sandal]

Seymour Hersh had a story about an unexploded charge being removed by the US. Personally, I'm very sceptical. https://brian-whit.medium.com/seymour-hersh-and-the-nord-stream-pipe-that-wasnt-blown-up-dc48bcbc039b

[raw nexus]

Hershey's™

[stone wadi]

The notion is stupid on a multidimensional level

Someone need to take away Hersh's crayons

[whole thunder]

https://jeffreyabrodsky.substack.com/p/new-revelations-from-nord-stream?r=2ixvfh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&s=09

Anyone got that yet?

https://twitter.com/JeffreyBrodsky5?t=jcP_0_s-HcN-WX7lzsQP5A&s=09

[inner sandal]

Brodsky, apparently referring to The Grayzone:

I had an agreement with a media outlet to write about what the expedition´s findings mean for understanding how the sabotage was carried out and who may have been responsible for it. But because I have not received payment for my work and have not been reimbursed for travel and other expenses in the correct amount, our agreement was violated.

There may be a bright side to no longer having to write for my former media outlet. For one, they insisted that I politicize my reporting and findings, bending them toward their own worldview and political biases. (I preferred to do pure investigative reporting on the sabotage.)

[inner sandal]

I've read Brodsky's report, which he has written with help from Michael Kobs (!)

His key point, which I'm inclined to agree with, is that the quantity of explosives was less than previously suggested, because of the explosive force of the gas in the pipes. He quotes some experts saying the quantity of explosives may actually have been very small, and the suggestion is that the gas did most of the damage.

[stone wadi]

Most of the estimates on how much explosives was used (that i have read) are based on the sesmiological reading of the explosion not the damage caused.

As for the explosive force of the gas given the lack of oxygen the only real force the gas can provide is from the difference in pressure.
And while that technically is the definition of an explosion it cause an other type of damage if it is over time

[elfin cradle]

As the explosion is the first thing that happens, that seismic wave of it will not be affected by the gas or pipe breaking up. Plus the explosion happens in less than a second.
You clearly see the explosion, (I assume that this is what they are basing the amount of the explosives). Then high-pressure gas leaks until (I assume) the pipes breaks down 10 seconds later and then gas is escaping in much larger volumes.

[elfin cradle]

Is that the whole fullstack article or do you need to subscribe to see the rest of the images? I wanna see the sidescan sonar.

[hushed karma]

I totaly agree that there were smaller charges needed than suggested. The suggested larger payloads of explosives used might even be as big as a few cm thick cutting type explosive cord around the pipe. And could be carried within a few simple larger shopping bags the cut of the pipe. This is Dutch. However significant in this discussion. As it shows that an explosive cord would be able to do the job and was practically unnoticeable in the seabed for “ usual “ inspections. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slagsnoer . This has been discussed before in here. #1072947857654554624 message However. That cord must me installed by a human. Therefore is the Andromeda theory still a viable possibility. As wel as the irratic Russian vessel behavior of the Minerva Julia. As also told and spoken of is the vast blow out of a pipeline burried in soil at the weldings of sections. Note the pipe thrown away over a vast distance #1072947857654554624 message.

Here the translation of the mentioned type explosives. Wiki-slagsnoer >>Detonating cord is an explosive material in the form of a cord/wire, with two main uses:

the simple introduction of other loads of explosives (virtually) without delay over distances of tens to hundreds of metres
it can be used for explosive cutting through objects (not too thick trees, pipelines, telegraph poles, etc.) by wrapping it around it a number of times.
Detonating cord thus differs from fuse or firing cord in that it itself does not burn slowly but detonates (with a speed of 7000-8000 m/s) and that no additional preliminary charges are usually required to detonate the main charge, except for very insensitive explosives such as ANFO. ANFO is Ammonium Nitrate & Fuel Oil, Which would not likely be used at the bottom of the sea due to its characteristics and the Ammonium Nitrate component will turn in to a cold pack.

[hushed karma]

The effect of power of the charge is seen on graphics. Which non the less could still be a cord type charge. Wrap that cord around the pipes often enough, detonate at the same time. and i think you will have a big enough blow to get this info on seismic instruments. But that seismic spike must be also further looked in to. There were more than one explosions. So there must also be more than one seismic chart i think.

[stone wadi]

Their are 2 main sesmic chart one for the morning and one for the evening explosion.
One of those have two different explosions

[elfin cradle]

• This is the NS2 south explosion, It was no additional explosions detected at this site.
• Unlikley it was Det. cord if the RUMINT that RDX/HMX were detected.
  Also that would required to dig around the pipe, totally unessecary if you use a shaped charge. Det. cord is not the same as a shaped charged. However there is flexible linear explosives but then you only need to cover the diameter of the pipe, not around it. And then the explosives would still be too low to be detected by seismographs (as required amont is around 8-11kg).

[hushed karma]

Do you have a reading source of this knowledge for me ?

[hushed karma]

Like to see both 👍

[stone wadi]

If you are going to use det cord to cut it and trust the gas pressure to destroy it you could just use a small directional explosion to punch a hole.

Would likely be easier do get through the concrete clading that way

[stone wadi]

They are available at the Swedish sesmiological society webpage
I think it have posted a link to their Page about it

Their was also a really early article of a Norwegian sesmilog that showed graphs

[elfin cradle]

I took my image from the Norwegians as they had the highest detailed one.

[stone wadi]

If anyone know how to compile sysiomological datasets that is also avalible

I looked into doing that but did not have time to make heads or tails of it

[hushed karma]

I looked inti concaved type of charges that would do as you suggest. But them type charges all needed to be anchored or buried in order to be effective and hit the pipe. Furthermore, the pipe ends would give a completely different picture. as described here. #1072947857654554624 message source httpswww.nord-stream.commediadocumentspdfen201303nord-stream-extension.pdf

[elfin cradle]

Read wikipedia about shaped charges.
But also this link that have been posted a numours times:

https://sprengtechnik.de/sprengung-nordstream/

[stone wadi]

Would be a bit of work to get detcord under the pipe

[hushed karma]

Well. Not by the MJ Russan vessel. But might also be very possible for experienced divers if the pipelines were not totally buried in sand.

[hushed karma]

Sadly this site is not responding at this moment. https://sprengtechnik.de/sprengung-nordstream/.

[stone wadi]

Which one?

[elfin cradle]

It works, even the preview show it works.

[stone wadi]

About that one
Pigs usually need difference in pressure so a pipeline on standby can't be traversed

[hushed karma]

👍. Might be my VPN of the day. Will try later on

[exotic shale]

The same US vessel Alexander talks about was there already October 2 and possibly earlier. First sighting in the Danish AIS data was Oct 2. Also, Normand Frontier did a large investigation of all sites November 20 - November 30. They were protected by US coast guard ship Hamilton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Hamilton_(WMSL-753). Thilo Maak who was onboard Greenpeace Beluga ship at the time can confirm because Beluga was pushed away by Hamilton. I think Normand performed dive operations judging from their track, and I also believe they were chartered by US Gov. The boot could have been lost in that operation, but who knows.

[strange bane]

Do you have a source for that?

I haven’t seen that anywhere.

[hushed karma]

Assumptions before proof is clearly also a matter of scrutinizing every fact again and put in timeframes with all other data. At the end there will be a clear view if this whole event. In mean time. If there is footage of that same spot shortly before them vessels were there after the blast without that boot. Than it might be a point of interest.

[strange bane]

But interested to see.

[hushed karma]

I found this. As they were present. Lets dive in to this 👍

https://media.greenpeace.org/C.aspx?VP3=DamView&WS=SearchResults&VBID=27MZV8VINR3XV&RW=414&RH=715

As stated. They were there. Only this is later on in november. First picture is 21-11-2022

They made a surveillance and toke samples. And did bottom research https://media.greenpeace.org/C.aspx?VP3=DamView&WS=SearchResults&VBID=27MZV8VINR3XV&RW=414&RH=715

Beluga Research Tour on Nord Stream Pipelines in the Baltic Sea
Greenpeace activists are preparing themselves for going to an investigation of the consequences of the severe explosions at the Nord Stream Pipelines 1 and 2 on 26 September 2022 and the methane gas leakage for flora and fauna in the Baltic Sea. On board the action vessel MV Beluga II, they are taking water and soil samples, and using an underwater drone (ROV) to document the damage to the seabed. The environmentalists examine the samples on board for possible residues of chemical warfare agents, and later a laboratory analyses them for explosive residues.

Who has connections with Greenpeace. Can they find out more please ?

Okay. I have seen their video here. That pipe end looks totaly differant than images shown before. Totally ruptured. So a cutting charge was not used here. This is indeed most likely done by a rude charge. Now it looks like a blown out rifle. Possibly due to the discharge of gass after and with the damage by the explosion. https://media.greenpeace.org/Detail/27MDHUFPAF97

I also see that the pipeline was not imbedded but at some spots was hold in place with short ballast in trenching. Ill look in to that also.

In reports of construction = httpsens.dksitesens.dkfilesOlieGas07_nsp2_se_route_eia._april_2019.pdf 4 Page 102. You wil find this trenching mentioned.

Trenching. What means that this section of this pipe was totally exposed. A crude mine or concaved charge beneath the pipe would do it , therefore easy and fast installable. That made this pipe highly vulnerable for damage caused

[junior moat]

Is that the German Michael Kobs ??
If yes, that guy is an absolute lunatic, easily on par with Sy Hersh .. he's an "MH17 truther" and all sorts of conspiracy stuff

[raven charm]

New Spiegel article with some new info:
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nord-stream-anschlag-expertengutachten-stuetzt-die-spur-zur-andromeda-a-761602f2-330e-4946-a145-65744ae1b156

• The authorities commissioned an expert opinion that concluded that the Andromeda hypothesis is possible.
• Octogen again confirmed. Several batches were used, which varied in size. The first batch is said to have been too large and the last too small, which is why one tube remained intact.
• At least one possible crew member of the Andromeda could have been identified by the German investigators: Waleri K. The photo of the Ukrainian soldier is said to have been on a forged document used to rent the sailing yacht. No results from the DNA samples yet.

[hushed karma]

Nothing new or revealing in this. And again is the loudness of this news very loud. But non the less as conclusive as the fact that there a boot has been found somewhere on the bottom.

What i really would like to know is te type of charge/explosives were used. Than it will be clear if it was actually possible for the Andromeda to play the role of installer and detonator.

[strange bane]

Actually there is.

The name it gives is a name that was privately identified.

[hushed karma]

But the name and picture was known before ?

[strange bane]

Not publicly, but I know the full name.

Not posting it cos obviously.

[hushed karma]

Love it. But i understood that 👍

[strange bane]

To provide context, the original picture

On the right here.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/misstankta-sparen-fran-sabotaget-mot-nord-stream/

His VK was identified.

Because the journalists did a dogshit job of obscuring the pic

So we have (privately), the picture on the right unpixelated.

The VK hasn't been used since 2017 and just has one picture.

But using his phone number, and using his face to search VK, you can find pictures of him with his friends.

and the name the article gives Waleri K. is the name, just typed weirdly and (obviously) cut off.

[velvet rain]

One clarification to the Spiegel article: German has a different transliteration system for Cyrillic than used in the English-speaking world.

[strange bane]

Which is why I say it's typed weirdly, yes.

[hushed karma]

Now. Looking deeper into the greenpeace movie and their voyage and spot they only seemed to be at the far south explosion of NS2. That makes for me a huge difference. Cause. If there are significant difference’s between the pipe ends of the Northern sabotage. It might be that the Andromeda took care of the south spot with a different approach. So lets have all pipe ends compared. I think it will be interesting

[strange bane]

And before anyone asks, I'm not sharing this (in line with the rules), but people know.

[raven charm]

The article also only mentioned that the photo on the forged passport is the same person. Don't know if they cross checked it with CCTV, eyewitness etc. The perpetrators could in theory just used his photo and a similar looking person. Can't really conclude anything until the results of the DNA test.

[hushed karma]

True. But than again. It is a clue how this all was orchestrated. And my best guess so far is, that it should point to an obvious country at first glance and idea so it will be swallowable for the most.

[strange bane]

This guy is suggested to have pretended to be a Romanian with the name of Stefan Marcu

[hushed karma]

Well. That says a lot. Old eastern influenced country. Money talks there

[strange bane]

At the start it was suggested they used (at least two) Bulgarian passport.

but the team is also 5, so its likely two Bulgarian, 1 Romanian and 2 other unknown passports.

also

https://twitter.com/arictoler/status/1671186281299079169

Aric Toler (@AricToler)

Been looking into this Valery mentioned here -- he's from Dnipro and was (as of earlier this year) an active serviceman with the UAF.
https://t.co/U7WwGBEuRs

Twitter · Jun 20, 2023, 4:00 PM

Just to confirm what I said above 🙂

[raven charm]

Although at this point I'm having a really hard time to come up with a scenario where it was not done by Ukrainians. Mainly because the initial plot that was stopped (more or less confirmed) and the link to Andromeda both came from the same source (Dutch intelligence).

[strange bane]

In order to be able to prove that K. was actually on the boat, investigators recently searched a woman's apartment in Frankfurt (Oder); she has a child with the Ukrainian. The aim: to compare biological traces from the sailing yacht with the boy's DNA. A result is not yet known.

[junior moat]

no, greenpeace went to the NS1 blast site in the Swedish EEZ on Nov 24th 2022 (which also Expressen went to earlier)
TV2 Bornholm went to the NS2 blast site in the south on Nov 24th 2022

[inner sandal]

Has anyone made a collection of all the available underwater imagery?

[rustic bay]

It seems like you are trying to piece together a narrative about what country did this. We do something different here, which is talk about what we know, and only that. I really can't see how connections can be made because someone used a fake Romanian name, etc. Are you trying to solve this whole thing?

[junior moat]

with no guarantee of completeness I think there were 5 expeditions that released public footage .
Expressen Oct 17 NS1A (Swedish EEZ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3V2JQ0X3x4
BBC Oct 27 NS1A (Swedish EEZ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_QQE9LVmtg
Greenpeace Nov 24 NS1A (Swedish EEZ) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc2i7o9YAYU
TV2 Bornholm Nov 24 NS2A-South (Danish EEZ) : https://www.tv2bornholm.dk/?newsID=255807
Grayzone "boot footage" (not sure if you can see the pipeline or only the boot)

(so we really only have footage from 2 of the 4 blast sites )

[strange bane]

Related information

The individual discussed isn’t a member of any service you’d imagine to be sensibly involved.

Not going to identify it, but it’s one of Ukraine’s (they have 31 in total) mechanised brigades.

Which is surprising to me, you’d have expected an individual involved in such an operation to be a member of the Ukrainian Navy, specifically a diving unit or otherwise marine (or in general) special forces.

[inner sandal]

exactly. a misfit on the boat. problematic

[junior moat]

Aric made the name public now .. so we can also discuss

[strange bane]

Oh nice.

[junior moat]

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1671217533037281280

Aric Toler (@AricToler)

Photo is not hard to track down -- it's linked to a VK account with a pseudonym with a mention of Dnipro. Running a facial recognition search on this shows a match for a man named Valery Kolesnik (compare to Valery K. in the Spiegel report), who is from Dnipropetrovsk oblast.

Twitter · Jun 20, 2023, 6:04 PM

[tidal knoll]

Do any of these accounts hint at his patronymic a just a "middle initial"? I see Aric is turning up numerous Valery Kolesniks.

[velvet rain]

I have not seen any indication of that.

[junior moat]

the investigators I think have more ways of cross-referencing his identity in addition to the name .. tattoos are mentioned, also the passport photo of Stefan M (who is also a real person by the way, i.e. identity theft) probably looks very similar
-> so I think it's somewhat safe to assume they didn't accidentally mess up the names

[hushed karma]

No. I am not. I am gathering data and study them to see and find connections between that data. As here in this i tried to make clear that a certain smokescreen might be the case. As i stated “ swallowable signs for press and so on. Not presuming any country at all. Because all of them are able to practice that. So, I am at all times open to any plot change or scenario into all this. However. I am of age and been around and seen over all-most 70 years a lot repeating happen. And that statement of me towards “Romanian” and money, well it means as much to me as a dead end in finding more traces there.

[velvet rain]

Just a friendly hint in case you are not aware, the people with the green names are the moderators here.

[mossy star]

No clue what his patronym is. It's a very common name, which makes it more difficult.

[tidal knoll]

That's why I was hoping someone here might have noticed something.

Maybe a memory will be jogged. You never know.

[raven charm]

Does this identified Valery K. have "striking tattoos" on his social media? At least this was mentioned in the Tageschau article. They only posted a photo without any tattoos visible.
https://images.tagesschau.de/image/5842b064-105d-4c21-97b6-bff60aa7b539/AAABiD8KFoc/AAABg8tMKVE/16x9-768/soldat-110.webp

[hushed karma]

But this is a totally different kind of uniform. Which could say nothing or much in this case. Compared to https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1671217533037281280

Aric Toler (@AricToler)

Photo is not hard to track down -- it's linked to a VK account with a pseudonym with a mention of Dnipro. Running a facial recognition search on this shows a match for a man named Valery Kolesnik (compare to Valery K. in the Spiegel report), who is from Dnipropetrovsk oblast.

Twitter · Jun 20, 2023, 6:04 PM

I do not think these are the same individuals. Based on visible head shape.

[strange bane]

The accounts have the same friends.

[raw nexus]

These unique eyebrows do match, also the mole on the left cheek

[vocal violet]

You can always use an AI to compare faces and see if it's likely to be the same one or not

[strange bane]

https://facecomparison.toolpie.com/

https://jeffreyabrodsky.substack.com/p/new-revelations-from-nord-stream

On a NS related piece of news,

*My former media outlet attempted to pay me after this post was published, but I have not and will not accept the money.

[stark palm]

”Octogen again confirmed. Several batches were used, which varied in size. The first batch is said to have been too large and the last too small, which is why one tube remained intact.”

This bit makes no sense.

The NS2 blast site is a lot different and smaller than NS1, so it definitely looks like a lot less explosives was used there.

But why would they change plans halfway through?

How would they know the first batch was “too large” prior to the explosions?

Also no evidence that the intact pipe was damaged in any way.

[exotic shale]

I talked to Thilo Maak who was on board. You can contact greenpeace if you are interested. They are good at answering.

[junior moat]

you can actually see USCGC Hamilton in their video at 5:28, yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wly1oOpjzAw&t=329s

[strange bane]

Oh I see.

That's in line with the Nav Warning that was in force at the time.

[junior moat]

which NS2 blast site, south or north ?
when the northern NS2 explosion happened there was probably almost no pressure left in the pipe
question is did they attempt to rupture also the NS2B string ? (probably in the north, if anything)

[stark palm]

south

[junior moat]

hm .. wasn't there some hint that the Andromeda did another round-trip towards the coast to potentially pick up more stuff (explosives?) .. maybe they didn't get enough that second time (highly speculative though :D)

[stark palm]

The south site will also continue to be such a strange choice. It is so close to Bornholm

[junior moat]

south site really only makes sense in view of its history yes

if Andromeda went to place explosives exactly there then it's some sort of message

[strange bane]

Just for some clarity on the Greenpeace video

[stark palm]

You can easily see Nexo from there and even the radar site on Bornholm

[strange bane]

Sure, it's the USCG telling Greenpeace to shoo off, but it is also in line with a Danish NtM declaring it a restricted area.

[junior moat]

👍 they went to the Swedish EEZ blast site first but apparently then got permission also for the Danish one and visited that too (on Nov 26 )

---

In the Swedish NtM the phrase "Work vessel is Nefrit/UBDW8" got replaced simply with "Several work vessels operate in the area." (that's cheating .. I want the names 😵‍💫 😅 ) https://ufs.sjofartsverket.se/en/current/NoticeDetails?notice=17177&from=potnotice

[strange bane]

The Swedish one had expired by then iirc

[junior moat]

just realized you can even see Normand Frontier in the greenpeace video (plus it shows up on their navigation device)
https://youtu.be/Wly1oOpjzAw?t=380 ( minute 6:24 )

[strange bane]

goddamn

why didn't we see any of this way back when in March

[junior moat]

yeah was thinking the same 😄 just blind

[strange bane]

I’m going offline shortly, but one last thing that’s been on my mind since I looked through some social media on the topic.

There’s a lot of discussion online saying “Bellingcat (or Spiegel or NDR or whoever) is trying to spin a nonsense impossible story, etc, etc, etc.”

“Arm of (Western and Russian ironically) propaganda”

Whilst there is obvious questions to the veracity of this line of inquiry, this isn’t a “Bellingcat” or “Jorg Diehl” or “Holger Stark” etc theory.

Absent anything else being said (and us finding out it’s been a government effort to mess people around in circles all this time), this is the working theory of a state investigation.

We can debate how a sailing yacht would do in this role, (and we most definitely have done so here), but a state investigation, with all the expertise, military, private, foreign and domestic, seemingly believes there’s questions to answer in relation to the Andromeda’s use during this period and those on it.

Either it did do it, or someone wants us to think it did it (presumably to cover up that they did it), and both are interesting developments.

With all the work put in, there’s very little to find physically in an OSINT sense (we’re unfortunately just not going to find footage of the Andromeda or anything else leaving with big boxes of explosives onboard), it just doesn’t exist open source.

So essentially, what we have is the ability to pull on strings that leaky investigations and journalists post about, and in posting about it, end up doing a poor job at hiding stuff.

The irony of ironies being that whilst Valery Kolesnik was identified both by Aric and Spiegel in their reporting today… the picture we have comes a poorly obscured picture from Expressen like a month and a half ago, the account was identified soon after they posted it and unfortunately sat dormant.

In pulling on the strings we identified just weird elements of the story, like @inner sandal raised, why is a member of the 93rd Mechanised Brigade seemingly taking part in a diving operation.

To go back to what I said above, either the Ukrainian operation was just that weird (I guess?) or indeed some other actor (Russia) conducted the attack, wanted to finger Ukraine, and set up the crumbs to lead back to a Ukrainian operation.

To finish off my little rant, in view of this being a state (criminal) investigation, you have to assume it’s being carried out in a serious, sober manner, so in that vein…

1. The identified soldier has no conceivable skill to bring to the dive team. As Brian puts it, he’s a “misfit onboard.”

2. The affairs of the leadership of Feeria Lwowa (the travel agency that rented the yacht) are questionable, one from Kyiv, the other from Kerch and an apparent collaborator with the Russian occupation. Likewise the two travel agencies we know of both are based out of “virtual” front offices.

3. Why use fake Bulgarian, Romanian and wherever else passports, when the company that you intentionally involved to be a middle man (when it would not have been weird to do it without them) is so obviously Ukrainian.

I’ll leave it at that before I bore everyone to death with my rant, but in view of it being the current line of German official criminal inquiry, it is just damn weird.

[eager moss]

what is shown in the greenpeace footage is the section of pipeline 'debris' that was blown from the 240 metre destroyed section of NS1A pipeline and landed vertically in the seabed; there is also a view on a large fragment of steel pipe from the same length of NS1A that was found on the seabed nearby. There is no new footage of damaged pipeline ends that I can see.

[eager moss]

the pipeline was not trenched in the region ENE of Bornholm (NS1 ruptures) nor in the region SSE of Bornholm (NS2 full-bore rupture). The page image you posted shows 'typical' pipeline or cable crossing methods; there were no pipeline or cable crossings at the rupture locations. One cable crossing was some kilometres away and was checked to ensure it was undamaged after the explosions (which it was). NS1 pipelines were partially embedded by sediment deposition prior to the explosions; NS2 pipelines were not embedded by sediment deposition. This difference in sediment deposition would be expected from the sedimentation studies conducted prior to constructing NS1 and also due to the difference in time that NS1 and NS2 pipelines had been on the seabed; the reason for the difference in sediment deposition between the two regions is evident from the difference in visibility and sediment transportation that can be seen in the rov footage in the two regions.

[eager moss]

the only additonal information in the public domain of which I am aware is the rov survey of the NS2A damage in the Swedish sector near the NS1 ruptures; included in the substack article by Jeffrey Brodsky yesterday. There is much more footage available from the several rov surveys of course but it has not been made publicly available.

[eager moss]

I wrote a few days ago "There are four full bore ruptures (definately 3 but probably 4) which means that there are 8 damaged ends of pipelines; but we have access to videos for only 2 of those 8 pipeline ends. Of those 2 ends we have several views taken from many different angles only on one of them (NS1-A); the other only provides side views onto the pipeline rupture (NS2-A)." We can now add that we have footage of the smaller damage on the NS2A pipeline NNE of Bornholm.

[eager moss]

This is a photo of the gas release at the sea surface at the NS2A rupture SSE of Bornholm on 29th September (12:53 local time ?); that's about three and a half days after the initial rupture at 2:03am on 26th September. The pressure reduction will not be linear with time nor will it be linear along the length of the pipeline. The only way we can determine how much the pressure was reduced in the pipeline 17 hours after the rupture at a location 80 kilometres away is with sophisticated simulation software that can model the entire pipeline length and conduct a time domain analysis. The only thing we can say with confidence is that it will have reduced but by how much is just guesswork. I suggest that the photo indicates that an assumed pressure reduction two and a half days earlier can not be relied upon as a only reason for the difference in the damage caused by the explosion at NS2A ENE of Bornholm.

[stark palm]

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2023-06-20-lille-detalje-paa-den-oedelagte-gasledning-ved-bornholm-sladrer-om-hvordan-sabotagen-blev-gennemfoert

From our NS2 trip

[eager moss]

does 'directional blast' mean a shaped charge ? (using google translate)

[stark palm]

Yes

[stark palm]

“Lars Nøhr-Nielsen estimates that there is a 70 percent probability that the bend in the pipe originated from an explosion, while there is a 30 percent probability that it occurred because the gas pipe twisted when it sprung a leak.”

[eager moss]

what is the gap between the two pipe ends ? has that been estimated based on the position of the end od the pipeline that is bent upwards ? ie is there a significant length of pipeline missing between the two ends that remain ?

the reason i ask is that the western end of the rupture looks very much like it is at a field joint whereas the other eastern end (that is some 5 metres above the seabed) looks like it is not a match - the steel bar mesh is protruding from the concrete up to the cut end of the steel

there would not be exposed steel mesh at a field joint so there appears to be a section of pipeline that is 'missing'

[junior moat]

great work

[elfin cradle]

The missing part seems to be less than the 12m length a pipe section is?

[stark palm]

it seems to be a relativtely small piece missing

[elfin cradle]

I sent this to my German explosives guy, he has all the time speculated that the explosives were placed lengthwise the pipes (based on the bending of the NS1 pipe). But he also have questioned that why only one explosion were detected at NS2 south, it should been two (one extra for redundancy, that is his suggestion why larger section of pipe is missing at NS1).
Will let you know what he says.

[eager moss]

yes the piece missing is short; the sonar image is good. It's interesting that it's a 12 metre length that is bent upwards ie about the length of a pipe joint.

[stark palm]

about 2 sections were bent up

they ended at about 7-8m above the seafloor

[eager moss]

okay, I misunderstood, thanks for the clarification.

[junior moat]

haha I love how German RTL/ntv introduces Oliver and the team like a crew from CSI:Miami 😎
https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/politik/Aufnahmen-zeigen-erstmals-aufgerissene-Nord-Stream-2-article24205147.html

[stark palm]

Video doesnt seem to work for me

[junior moat]

downloaded ✅

[stark palm]

😎

Thanks

[tidal knoll]

Geheimdienst-Experte! I have questions... 😉

[stark palm]

I have spent so long on Twitter than I have become a stupidity expert

[raw nexus]

Haha, Bond, Oliver Bond

[strange bane]

So for context:

Oliver has been to the Southern (Danish) explosion site with ntv-RTL

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2023-06-20-lille-detalje-paa-den-oedelagte-gasledning-ved-bornholm-sladrer-om-hvordan-sabotagen-blev-gennemfoert

Erkperk seems to have been to all the sites with Brodsky (who was with Grayzone at the time, left after being stiffed by them for expenses and being told to lie to include their agenda in his report)

https://jeffreyabrodsky.substack.com/p/new-revelations-from-nord-stream

Two videos of the Erkperk/Brodsky expedition:

https://vxtwitter.com/jeffreybrodsky5/status/1670930268704653315

https://vxtwitter.com/erkperk/status/1665802384356851713

https://twitter.com/michakobs/status/1671320021845278721

Michael Kobs (@MichaKobs)

@JeffreyBrodsky5 @EliotHiggins @Jochen @AricToler @michaeldweiss Thank's for not tagging me or asking me for using my work for this BS! No one insisted that you politicize your reporting. The Grayzone insisted that you point out what exactly is new knowledge and why it is important. YOU wasn't able to do it. I did. WTF!

Twitter · Jun 21, 2023, 12:51 AM

Micha Kobs having an argument with Brodsky over not being credited for his work.

Also the pinned tweet on Micha Kobs is trying to use OSINT to blame the Ghouta sarin gas attack on the Syrian opposition

[strange bane]

To add to your list, there’s been an Oliver/ntv-RTL expedition and a Erkperk/Brodsky/Grayzone expedition.

[junior moat]

to be precise I think it was ntv/RTL, not NDR (not that it matters too much)

[junior moat]

yeah Micha Kobs also created 100+ pages of "OSINT" to blame MH17 shootdown on Ukraine (or something, don't really want to know his conclusion :D), always trying to undermine Bellingcat and Correct!v

[strange bane]

Ah I’m an idiot, sorry about that!

Fixed 🙂

[limber hinge]

Oliver,
Do you recall the wind on the day of your trip?
How many kph or knots?

[hushed karma]

Wel. One might say that the pipes were blown up by installed charges. Not crude dropped charges. Seen at the damage and that 12 meter missing pipe. Altho the gas discharge could also could have blown that part of pipe away , the cutting charges were almost certainly placed on either end of the remaining pipe. And there is a difference between the northern explosives and the one used at the south. Is it to early to carefully suggest that both sabotages were in order of one “ client” in this. And the role of both vessels , Andromeda ( in the south) and the Russian M.J. (At the north) might be both involved ?

If that is the case. This theory might me viable to look into further. Andromeda might had to do one job on one pipe in the south. And that was very well possible with that vessel and crew. But than. The strange presence of the now known military man. It might be the explosive knowledge on board. That would explain its presence. And as often seen. He might have changed in duty/ tasks within the military. Is his career looked into ?

[hushed karma]

There might be a false flag here. But also the possibility that this person had a career change and has all there is to know about explosives and at that depth before. I think his career would be interesting if there is any. If there is none. Than it might be just a setup decoy to put fingers elsewhere than the real client in this.

[hushed karma]

On your point 3 you assumed that the client was Ukrain ? Why ? The passports of diverse country’s or that military man identified as Ukrainian might all be faked. As investigating these passports and individuals is practically impossible at this moment within Ukraine. And most certainly will not be that easy to perform correct and conclusive within Romania.

[strange bane]

Do you mean that Ukraine (or another countries) intelligence couldn’t fake a passport?

[stone wadi]

Have everyone forgotten that any of the investigations might have removed parts of the pipeline
And they might well have employed detcord to cut away a part to bring to the surface

[stone wadi]

Whats the distance between the pipes in the ns1 pipe pair?
(And the ns2 pair)
Would influence what type of charge you wanted to use

[stone wadi]

And might also have used ship based cranes to lift parts of the end for inspection or/and removal

[hushed karma]

O they can and will. But that is done by any country worldwide. So therefor them passports are non conclusive info for me. Rather for me, they are at this moment diversionary tactics.

[hushed karma]

Yes. And i am diving in to this. As i did from early on believed they must have used this type of explosives.

That this piece of pipe is missing could wel be done by been blowen out by violent gas discharge.

There has been showen a blown pipe in soil and also one part of that pipeline was thrown over a vast distance by the pressure blown out. And that was a significant lower pressure than within the NS1 or NS2 pipelines

I try to find that. One moment. #1072947857654554624 message

[stone wadi]

Will behave differently under 8 atmospheres of water though
Or just in water in general

[strange bane]

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/misstankta-sparen-fran-sabotaget-mot-nord-stream/

This picture from the above article

Scans of their passports

We know the two names

But anyone know what Ukrainian passport office 8012 is.

Obviously a passport office, but where

[junior moat]

funny I was just about to write about that company

Feeria Lwowa I think in Polish/Ukrainian/russian translates as "Extravaganza of Lviv" which I find interesting

did we know there is 4 named people connected to that company ? 3 directors and one owner ?

(sorry I can't go back through the entire channel to see what I missed about this company :D)

According to the b2bhint.com counterparty verification service, three names appear in Feeria Lwowa's management: Diana Borseitova, Natalya Ashikhmina and Oleg Lyubchuk. Presumably, Diana Borseitova lives in Kerch and changed her last name to Kukulenko.

[junior moat]

found it

it's number 11 on this list : https://dmsu.gov.ua/cmu/pidrozdily.html

[stark palm]

basically no wind at all when we were there

[elfin cradle]

iirc around 50-100m, you can check the Espoo Report for better info.
No, you need a charge next to the pipeline as water otherwise absorbs the energy. If you place a 300kg charge like 10m away from the pipe nothing will happen.

[strange bane]

Oh helpful

[strange bane]

But yes, those are the names I’ve been working with

[stone wadi]

That sounds like an unrelisonal short distance for that kind of energy in a incomprehensible medium

[strange bane]

Borseitova is the one who is apparently on Myrotvorets as well

[elfin cradle]

No, that would affect the forensic samples and contaminate the area.
You only need to cut the part of the edge to see the metallurgical changes in the metal, which way it were bent, microcracks, the grains in the metal, etc.

[strange bane]

The Ukrainian traitor website

Is how it was described in one report I saw

[tidal knoll]

That is mild compared to some of the things I've seen it called. It's also not really a good indication of anything, afaik.

[elfin cradle]

The water turns into a shockwave that follows the cylindrical shape of the shockwave. If it was a flat thing, it would be different. The report on underwater explosions goes throu this in detail. Its should have been posted multiple time in this thread.
Or if you are smart you just google "underwater explosion pipeline pdf"

[strange bane]

#1072947857654554624 message

It comes from the Expressen article

Which I’m paywalled

[stone wadi]

Sorry, have been a bit disconnected lately and still have limited time to delve into stuff

[strange bane]

But:

“In the same year, the company also changed owners. The new owner is a 32-year-old woman from the city of Kerch on the occupied Crimean peninsula. In the Polish company documents, she has used her Ukrainian passport — but our review of Russian databases shows that the woman changed her name several years ago and now also has Russian citizenship. She works for a Russian authority in the city. On a Ukrainian war criminals website, she is listed as a traitor because of her collaboration with the occupying power

(This comes from Brian Whitaker who is here in the server, just to credit this text)

[stone wadi]

Likely mentioned before but Expressen is not a paper that should be taken too serious
Though from time to time they publish exceptional and original investigations

[elfin cradle]

Hereyougo:
https://archive.ph/A6Yn1

[hushed karma]

Agreed. But the blow out is very powerfull as you can see here. And this a far lower pressure under 1 meter of soil. So imagine what does it do with only 12 meters of pipe #1072947857654554624 message

[stone wadi]

That reminds me, how do they handle thermal expansion and retraction, or are the changes too small to be important

[hushed karma]

The environment is rather stable in temperatures on that depth. So there is no significant expansions of metal like per example train rails in the sun.

[stone wadi]

Or pipelines in air
They do interesting U bends from time to time to solve that

[hushed karma]

I think you need to dive in to one of these reports. https:/www.nord-stream.commediadocumentspdfen201303nord-stream-extension.pdf There are more of them thru out the whole trajectory of the pipes. Mentioned all aspects of them pipes

[junior moat]

Has this aspect been discussed that the Süddeutsche Zeitung mentions they identified another Ukrainian "from the Odesa region" who is also "known to investigators" and who has a "connection to the sabotage" but "wasn't actively involved" ? It reminds me of another time a bit longer ago where SZ already was dropping some hints 🫣

[stark palm]

I would still love to hear the rationale behind using a Ukrainian TDF member (the guy who was supposedly IDed)

If he was a Ukrainian combat diver, sure, but what does a random TDF member with Nazi sympathies bring to the table?

[stone wadi]

Thanks, hopefully I will have some time to do so during the midsummer weekend

[strange bane]

To be fair. We don’t know what he’s been up to since 2017.

[strange bane]

Also re Nazi sympathies

It’s all this kinda weird stuff

Weird, but he’s not posting Bandera and SS Galizien or anything

[hushed karma]

Sound very fishy to me.

[junior moat]

large parts of Azov seem to trace back their heritage to Vikings / Norse mythology / ..
normally don't recommend reading DailyMail but here you go: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11576251/Thousands-Ukraines-Azov-soldiers-burn-Viking-longboat-honour-comrades.html

[strange bane]

It’s the equivalent of Peaky Blinders “hard man” posting on Facebook

There’s nothing specifically Nazi

[strange bane]

He’s posting in Russian

And comes from Dnipro, a Russian speaking predominantly city

Odd place for a Ukrainian nationalist to come from.

[junior moat]

hm fair enough, guess that makes the Azov connection less likely

[strange bane]

Oh I get the weird Paganism shit

[quick fiber]

Many of Azov (leadership included) actually come from Eastern/Southern Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine

[tidal knoll]

The reference here is Norse mythology, real or fantasy... Just because (neo-)Nazis borrowed a lot from there, is not sufficient.

[junior moat]

after checking out that "ÜBER ALLES" group on VK that group definitely has Nazi-touch ... the name itself (plus the self-description) is a give-away

[tidal knoll]

The Über Alles makes a difference, though.

[junior moat]

🤔
( -- deleted a screenshot here from the group )

yeah I think that settles it pretty much 😄

[velvet rain]

We have checked all the Über Alles posts he shared and none of them are explicitly Nazi-related. It's really just generic "look at how edgy and Norse I am" stuff. Über Alles being Nazi does not mean that he was.