Turntables

[jaunty plaza]

The abbility to make turn tables to turn Engines around

[dense niche]

you can, kinda

[radiant flame]

Hereby, I summon imagineerdave

[brazen yew]

https://tenor.com/view/summoning-gif-16806659066271167689

[spiral rover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78gv75MaPz4&t=3s

[hard bobcat]

thou has summoned me, next thime thou should tag me

hello, turntable helpdesk, how can i assist you?

[light halo]

@hard bobcat question about this, how did you get the 3 bogies?

[lunar fox]

Iirc I think there's embedded stickers in the train that attach them into a single unit temporarily until it's turned around and then unstick so it can assemble

[light halo]

no i meant as in

3 bogies isnt possible in steam n rails

in a single coach thing that is

[heavy folio]

3 bogies isnt possible in creaate

Idk what snr has to do with the 3 bogey limit

[light halo]

well it was answered here so

[granite marsh]

yea, it’s a physical limitation of… trains..

[light halo]

i understand that

[granite marsh]

HOWEVER you can - with some funny glueing - make it LOOK like there’s more than two bogies in an engine

[heavy folio]

That is answering a request for snr to remove the limit

The limit comes from base creates logic

[light halo]

i understand it is impossible. I just want to know how they did it, so i can also implement it on my trains, without flywheels

[granite marsh]

essentially either the leading/trailing (or both) aren’t connected to the train structure

LOADS of people here do it

[light halo]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm alrighttt

i think i can figure out how to do that

[hard bobcat]

heres how

[light halo]

Thank youu!!!

[granite marsh]

damn if only the gif wasnt like 140MB

[spiral rover]

in general i would argue that gluing the front bogey seperately is better

since the back is mostly the part where the engine will be coupled to other stuff

especially with tenders its better if it goes out to the side less

[granite marsh]

oh yeah
depending on who you ask, one or the other should be the one left 'free'

personal choice as a lot of things are

[hard bobcat]

tbh if you are rebuilding engines just take their setup right?

[granite marsh]

that is something that indeed counts as a personal choice

[celest fog]

I personally have both leading and trailing bogies seperate, as having the driving wheels rotate bugs me more than the tender swaying relative to the cab

[vagrant phoenix]

with quite an annoying amount of gluing, I've managed to make a lorry with trailer look fairly normal when going around a corner, it's crazy what you can get away with using some creative gluing

[granite marsh]

REAL

[vagrant phoenix]

I heart glue I could eat it

[granite marsh]

generally (depending on the shape of the cab/smokebox) its manageable with 5 boxes total for the engine

like this is a clean cut

but if theres a considerable cab overhang almost/fully touching the tender then it can get funny

[hard bobcat]

True, had on multiple occasions that the gluing from the tender was sticking inside of the cab, felt like playing tetris

[granite marsh]

stuff like this is basically haha good luck

[hard bobcat]

Yea

[turbid ermine]

Idea, Make decor bogies?

These don’t follow the track very well, they just look like bogies.

[next dune]

wouldnt the ladders and little door things be part of the tender

[granite marsh]

no that’s part of the cab :p

[spiral rover]

this is a feature of extended bogies and still planned to be implemented in a future version of blocks and bogies

[fierce thorn]

On long enough bends can't it be possible?

[granite marsh]

i mean no because its still a straight line on a curve

unless the straight line is REAL small and the curve is absolutely massive

(assuming youre allowed some play)

[fierce thorn]

-# Also btw are there any videos soon?

[granite marsh]

if u can slip me some adhd medication therell be loads

[fierce thorn]

Fair enough

[brazen yew]

[spiral rover]

on a bend with the length of infinity its possible

on long enough bends it wouldnt look bad anymore

but still mathematics would be in the way

[fierce thorn]

I mean as long as you let the leading/trailing wheels rotate a bit

[hard bobcat]

isnt that the whole point of a leading / trailing wheel, that it can swivel and rotate? And therefor its glued apart from the rest xd?

[fierce thorn]

Fair enough

[sage juniper]

Thinking about this, technically it is possible, the front and back bogeys are coneshaped, aka the ones that actually do the turning and holding onto the rail(the flared ones), and the middle ones are smoothed out, just a normal circle, not flared or coneshaped. Similar to how the bigger bogey options with more wheels have the middle ones smoothed out.

[granite marsh]

all train wheels are conical

[spiral rover]

in create they are all circles

or well octogons

[granite marsh]

true but not that way

creates wheels are however also not conical

conical ≠ circular

[spiral rover]

that does not make it possible
bogies are points where the train connects to the track, train carriages cannot bend and a straight line can only intersect a curved line on at most two points

[sage juniper]

Connecting with the rail doesn't mean it has to hug the rail or have the flare on the back, a none conical wheel, purely existing for just that, can simply go over the track on a turn in that case and then touch it again once the train goes in a straight line or over the curve.

Think of it like a normal wheel set, round, not conical, and out of metal, simply existing for cosmetic reasons in this case.

Basically a 3rd, 4th or even 5th bogey is possible, as long as ONLY 2 bogey are the ones doing the turning and the others simply don't have the flare that forces them to follow the track. Making it like those bogeys with 6 wheels or more on each side, the middle ones aren't conical realistically nor flared.

[spiral rover]

create wheels are not conical to begin with

[sage juniper]

I know, but technically they act as conical wheels.

[spiral rover]

no

you mean flangeless

[sage juniper]

Is that what the ones without the extra thing on the edge are called?

[spiral rover]

also your suggestion is that snr should allow for more bogies by making visual equivalents of bogies that dont connect to the track

extended bogies has that and its planned for a future update of blocks and bogies as well

[sage juniper]

Pretty much.

[sage juniper]

Hasn't extended bogeys become Blocks and Bogies?
Or that different?

[spiral rover]

sort of

extended bogies was made by rabbitminer

then rabbitminer disappeared

weido made extended bogies borked which ported extended bogies as far as 1.20.1 0.5.1j

then weido wrote blocks and bogies which has all original code and also actual math based animations (extended bogies was just eyeballing it)

and thats blocks and bogies

[sage juniper]

Alr, thanks for telling me

[granite marsh]

banger

[sage juniper]

look again, I was just seeing the mod in the modpack I made and playing

[carmine stump]

This video is a good example with one not-so-minor flaw, that due to the fact it disassembles and reassembles the locomotive, it can only be rotated in the four cardinal directions with the diagonals left out of the conversation completely, shown with the static engines in the shed in the diagonal directions that can never really leave. I mean sure you can cheat with phantom rails that connect the diagonal directions with the tracks beyond the turntable but then you're kinda ruining the point of the turntable being at the sheds in the first place.

[granite marsh]

✨ aesthetic ✨

[spiral rover]

its not a flaw
its the way minecraft works
good luck doing anything else

[carmine stump]

I'm not talking about "oh make it disassemble/assemble diagonally" I mean cut that part out entirely

[spiral rover]

that would be glitchy as fuck

like already sometimes when you place tracks they simply arent registered on the track graph

[carmine stump]

Yeah but when are create trains not glitchy

Especially in servers

[spiral rover]

now imagine the same thing but its on a contraption all the time and every smallest movement of the contraption has to overwrite the track graph

including the train on the track graph btw

[carmine stump]

Idk, add a new part to the track graph that accounts for turntables?

[spiral rover]

sounds like an even glitchier solution

[carmine stump]

Yeah but eventually you'll have a 3 stooges situation where all the glitches cancel each other put

[spiral rover]

no eventually you will have a situation where these features will become so unplayable that noone will even bother using them

[carmine stump]

Besides, you're not even accounting for the possibility that it could just work, like how those guys on the ctgp-7 team made missions work in Mario Kart 7

[carmine stump]

Wild idea let's work this out logistically rather than dismissing it as "oh it'll be glitchy". The turntable will still exhibit mannerisms of Dave's such as acting as stations for all intents and purposes,(before you ask, think a dedicated turntable bearing that you can rename and refer to in schedules) where holding space or a train schedule on a mob will make it stop on a specific block, likely in a manner that either puts the train at the turntable's center-most or forward-most point that doesn't cause any of it's bogies to be off (will likely take a lot of space, but turntables do irl as well). Either way, lined up with the blocks that make up the turntable contraption. This so far is a train contraption ontop of a stationary contraption. Now I have two ideas for this next bit, first is doing what I said earlier in a literal sense where you skip the disassemble and reassemble steps and just merge the two contraptions into one, turn it, and separate after, the second is just to rotate the train to match what the turntable is doing, this is what I assume things like trainz and microsoft train sim do, so yeah. With the track graph, I am going to assume you mean the thing shown in stuff like ftb maps, idk, just have the turntable represented by a circle with a line in it with the line suddenly switching direction based on where the turntable is turning two, with the train following suit. As for the rest of the logistics, I think you can let your imagination fill in the blanks since it is almost 4 AM for me rn and I'm tired.

[spiral rover]

the track graph is the alternate dimension trains are in

the train contraption you see in the world does not do any calculations on speed, movement, signals or anything else, it just blindly follows where the train in the track graph goes

if you turn the train contraption without turning the train in the track graph, you get a similar effect as when you /kill a train contraption

the train does visually do what you expect it to do but when you unload the chunk and reload it then everything goes back to how it was before

therefore the first thing that a turntable would need is a track graph that is not confined to 45° rotations but ideally can move within at least 1°

this would then need to be rotated and registered correctly on every single 1° rotation

[carmine stump]

Idk then maybe just make the train change it's state so it isn't a train and instead a stationary contraption?

You know so you don't need to affect the train graph in this case

[spiral rover]

in that case how do you drive the train onto the turntable

[carmine stump]

Drive it onto it normally, holding space to stop wherever the turntable bearing makes it stop, then hold 'a' or 'd' which changes it from a train to a stationary contraption and then rotates it, then just hold 'w' or 's' when you stop rotating and are locked to one of the 8 individual track compatible directions to turn it back into a train.

[spiral rover]

so you want to drive the train somewhere without a track graph?

[carmine stump]

Probably wouldn't be compatible with unloaded chunks and by extension schedules unless the turntable bearing were granted minor chunk loading properties but that is admittedly giving power for lag machines

In essence, kinda

[spiral rover]

sounds like a nightmare

constantly updating fine tuned track graph would probably be the better option

[carmine stump]

Again, minor chunkloading properties, simply start and end it's chunkloading the instant before and after the train changes to a stationary contraption.

Besides, in a sense this is how Dave's turntable works

[spiral rover]

thats not the issue

chunkloading is a very minor issue actually

[carmine stump]

Or you could probably just remove the smoothness of the turntable, make the turning instant and do so for the track graph

[spiral rover]

the large issue is transforming a train contraption into a stationary contraption without dissassembling

[carmine stump]

But again, what's the point

[spiral rover]

sounds like the first sort of doable idea you came up with

lock the train onto the turntable for some time and update it on the track graph

when the chunk is loaded figure out where to turn it visually

[carmine stump]

Idk maybe this exact change to the track graph is being worked on in SnR or even base Create as we speak

[spiral rover]

its not

but exact changes arent needed in the first place

[carmine stump]

Hence the maybe

[spiral rover]

because in loaded chunks carriage contraptions can be manipulated independently of the track graph

they just return to their original position when unloaded and reloaded

[carmine stump]

So you'd just need to update the track graph equivalent then, right?

[spiral rover]

the track graph would only need to turn 45° at a time

in unloaded chunks therefore the fine turning wouldnt even take place, only the 45° turning

[carmine stump]

Plus a small delay to avoid desyncing in case the schedules are fine tuned and prevent possible clogging

Just to match what you'd see if the chunks were loaded

[granite marsh]

this turns it into solid blocks and then another contraption, which defeats the whole purpose

[carmine stump]

Ah, dammit

So I guess rotating the train (in your mind because nobody can stop you) and updating the track graph equivalent to match at the end is all there is left

[spiral rover]

Therefore here is a detailed suggestion:
A special new turntable bearing will be implemented. This bearing never disassembles when stopped and also is not controlled directly by its rotation input. It brings with itself the special feature of being able to turn tracks positioned in the middle of it. Rotating tracks will not be present on the track graph. Only when the turntable stops will the track graph update again which will move to the location of the tracks on the turntable and take the train on it with itself. The turntable bearing is only able to stop every 45°. When the chunk is loaded, the carriage contraption entities are moved along with the turntable. During this time they essentially count as derailed trains and cannot be controlled at all. Visually the bogies are overwritten so they still face in the correct direction. When the turntable stops, the carriage contraption entities are resnyced with the turntable. Additionally, when the destination number is 5 or more, the train will be flipped. When the chunk is unloaded the turntable is present only as a ghost number from 1-4 indicating the way its facing. The turntable is approached by scheduled trains as follows: The trains stop a few blocks in front of the turntable and request it to be turned in the direction they are coming from. After it has been turned in that direction, the trains drive onto it and request turning onto the destination track. This is a number from 1-8 as also the facing of the train is important. For manual control of the turntable a system similar to elevators could be implemented

if i forgot anything just ask about it

[carmine stump]

Manually controlled trains I think weren't talked about in this

[spiral rover]

included it

[hollow prairie]

Question, how would the train know which way to face after turning around? Like say you enter the turntable facing north, and you turn around 180⁰, how does the train then know to face south? Since given how tracks work in this mod, there's no real way to tell if a track flips around

[spiral rover]

also done

[carmine stump]

North=1, NE=2, East=3, and so on. Think of how the Special stat is calculated for a Pokémon egg in GSC (should it not remain the same) where it is either plus or minus 8 depending on where it is in a 0-15 range but here it's either plus or minus 4 depending on where it is in a 1-8 range

[hollow prairie]

Oh ok makes sense

[carmine stump]

The analogy doesn't work for rotations that aren't 180° but with them it works flawlessly

Oh and also the turntable bearing crafting recipe should basically be the clockwork bearing but with a train casing instead of a brass casing (lord knows it's gonna get more use than the clockwork bearing)

[heavy folio]

Yeah the track graph is insanely unstable as it is

Adding any kind of dynamic aspects to it is just a recipe for disaster

[hard bobcat]

thank you for understanding ;p

To be honest, everyone whos a fan of 'make a block for x' I believe to be a little on the uncreative / slightly lazy side. The fun in create is that you have to make complicated machinery to make complicated things. You want something? Think about it and try to make it work. Most fun is in the 'finding a way how to make it' instead of the 'imma place it down'

luckely enough create has limits

its like asking for a andesite alloy generator block, wheres the fun in it

[spiral rover]

no 45° turntable is not a limit i like

[granite marsh]

plus its cool to see all the different things people do/use to achieve the same result

[hard bobcat]

Well instant 10000 andesite alloy isnt a limit i like

[spiral rover]

the fact that tracks can only ever turn 45° and there is not at least 22.5° seems to me like its counterproductive and just incites people to build extremely tight turns

[hard bobcat]

Yea thats my whole point, just imagine some guy making a video of a turntable he worked hard on for someone to comment 'Uhh turntable bearing, ez man'

[granite marsh]

'extremely tight turns'

[hard bobcat]

I wouild be a fan of 22,5 degree tracks, its good for switches etc

or atleast like a 3 point spline mode o r something

[spiral rover]

it incites people who are mid range to build tight turns

especially on switches

[hard bobcat]

Only thing I don't like about giant turns in 1 piece is that they unrender when you dont see the centerpoint

[spiral rover]

like imagine making a large yard with many tracks next to each other and a 45° track connecting to each of them whereas irl that track would be much closer to 22.5°

[hard bobcat]

or when it isnt loaded, either improve rendering or cut them up in smaller bits

[granite marsh]

i keep getting gaslit by tracks bc i swear they smooth themselves out when multiple sections ascend - that curve does for instance

other times though they dont

[hard bobcat]

They don't when the tracksections are exactly the same length, if you build up longer sections at bottom and top and decrease towards the middle (steepest) it works fine

it had something to do with the calculation of the smooth slope i guess, its weird

[heavy folio]

Youll love this when it comes out,
https://ptb.discord.com/channels/706277846389227612/1439628276355170406

[hard bobcat]

if you do same lengths you get a bit of a bump track

[hard bobcat]

Yoooooo wtf

[granite marsh]

that doesnt check out tho bc on that curve, all sections are equal...

unless curves change the behaviour

[spiral rover]

it doesnt even work with the snr port tracks on 1.21.1

[heavy folio]

ofc it doesnt

the snr port changes stuff

[spiral rover]

it doesnt change much

[heavy folio]

Its probably planned anyway, plus its not out yet

[spiral rover]

the dev just said since its an inofficial port he wont do it

[heavy folio]

If hes open to someone else doing it i might pr it

[fierce thorn]

It's not only about that but also you can only make very vague turns if that makes sense

Sure you can turn for a while but only 45 degree increments is too little

[spiral rover]

switches are the true source of the issue

[carmine stump]

Dave, I like your videos and all, but that is not at all an equivalent comparison. The more apt comparison would be something like the sequenced gearshift which is basically just compacting the circuit needed for many setups of a clutch and gearshift. Like we're not asking for some miracle block that just places a modeled structure on it's own like it's a 1.7.10 era train mod, we're asking for something equivalent to a clockwork bearing crossed with a station, you'd still have to design the turntable. For all I care it can just be a mechanical bearing that turns track and trains on it without any of the automation stuff. Or are you gonna keep comparing apples to oranges?

[hard bobcat]

Still think it's just one of those things that makes it 'easier'. The circuitry is not that hard and with the v5 its actually insanely easy. Gearshifts adds things you cant do with redstone and clutches since clutches arent smooth whilst shifting sadly enough.

But let me get another comparison ; a SU generator where you input lava, cause why build a full steam engine

instead of a big steam engine with laggy elements, just a block with lava input, water input and su output, cost will be higher to make

[carmine stump]

Wouldn't the 45° turns be the same thing as your argument for the sequenced gearshift?

[hard bobcat]

45 degree turns?

[carmine stump]

Yeah, that's literally the main point

[hard bobcat]

on the turntable you mean? I suppose so, the only thing is that 45 degree train tracks to a shed are mostly decorative and the gearshift is something you use in contraptions

[carmine stump]

The design shown in your videos can only turn a train in the cardinal directions, good if you need to do a 180, not so good for most other applications of a turntable

[hard bobcat]

and tbh if you want that, just get create interactive?

[carmine stump]

Does create interactive even allow you to attach track to a contraption?

[spiral rover]

yes

but its not very advised to use it

[carmine stump]

Tbh telling someone to use create interactive to solve a problem is like telling someone to use a hammer to open a pickle jar, like sure it works but now you have multiple new problems.

I've never used it myself but I feel like there is a reason the pinned post on r/create is a meme telling people that if they have create interactive, the problem likely is create interactive.

[heavy folio]

This

The entire track graph sysem would need to be reworked to allow for turnables

on larger graphs it barely handles adding or removing tracks from it

[exotic berry]

is "larger" definied as the SNR server? because the issue there is that the track graph has to be rendered at all times. (this probably could be async from main game thread for performance reasons,) when the track gets added and removed, the entire track gets recalculated. (tracks are on the same track graph if they are connected, intersect, or are within 2 blocks of another track.

[heavy folio]

it has to be rendered?

[exotic berry]

"rendered" is being used loosely, it's actually calculating a bunch of math every tick, and somtimes twice whenever the track is modifyed. This is why signals have no length limit, because they don't use normal world rendering logic.

[heavy folio]

I dont really know how large compares to snr server cuz i haven't found a way to actually view the track graph

Its using a game version without either journey or xaeros track viewer

If a moderator could run the info command that would be good

[merry finch]

"Do not leak all your plans in a youtube video"

[proud drift]

oh yeah