Serena's predicament

[quasi wharf]

haha i like the thread name!

[daring imp]

But if you feel like you've been making gradual progress and it's been a year already, why doesn't the business already know enough about its userbase?

Your knowledge of the user should be growing with every hypothesis you test.

Each design you create and pit against your audience IS research.

[quasi wharf]

very true and we do learn a bit each time but i feel like it's not enough

there's still a lot i don't know and itching to learn

[daring imp]

For sure. But it's more important to focus on what you did learn if those learnings have helped focus your time toward meaningful progress to further answer questions that you have, to dig deeper.

All the knowing your user bits will develop as a consequence to that

Again, simply doing surface level research and asking questions in times of uncertainty in reality leads to not great answers

Like you already have a basis by which to continue testing

That's not something to be taken for granted

And if you do in fact see some stickiness in certain things you're working through, then that's worth exploring further

[quasi wharf]

maybe im not patient enough? isn't it a shame that i've been here for a year doing a bunch of designs/features and i still don't fully understand the user?

[daring imp]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

That's only something you can answer I suppose

[quasi wharf]

it is shameful i say!

[daring imp]

I've been working startups for a long, long time

[quasi wharf]

and that's why i'm having this problem 😭

[daring imp]

And there is always more to know about the people you serve but more importantly the things that they're trying to get done

And 80% of that learning comes from experiments. Trying stuff and seeing what works. Some of it is real bad.

That's reality

And I currently work at a 250 person startup

[quasi wharf]

true but what about efficiency? you don't think taking just a bit of time to do research will save money and time in the long run? like i'll be able to design more productively and we'll have faster progress

it takes a toll on the engineering team too build and experiment everything

[daring imp]

That's startup life

Startup life is experiments

[quasi wharf]

oh interesting! do you guys prioritize understanding the user at your startup? or is it still very much like what we're talking about right now

[daring imp]

We understand our users through a lot of different channels. Sales, CX, CS. It's not that common for Design to be engaging with clients directly. That's more a function of Product.

Along with data platforms

But

You are a single designer

You do what needs to be done

Doing research as a sole designer with such a small sample size

How accurate of a picture do you think you'll have of your user?

Compared to the work that you're testing

[quasi wharf]

it'll be more accurate than it is now and that's what im striving for

[daring imp]

I'd challenge that

Because in my career that has never been the case

[quasi wharf]

so you think the PM should know the user better than the product designer?

[ebon rock]

yes

100%

[thorny ermine]

yes

[daring imp]

100%

lol

[quasi wharf]

im so confused

i thought product designers are the most user centric ones

like we're called ux designers for a reason right?

"user experience"!!

[ebon rock]

ehhh. i dont think user centricity is a.. uh, thing.

its more like

what metrics matter the most to whom

[quasi wharf]

lol prototype i remember our previous convo

[ebon rock]

😄

like with your software for CEO's, is the CEO using it? or is the company the CEO runs using it?

[daring imp]

There is no such thing as being "most user-centric"

Everyone on the team is user centric from their own PoV

[ebon rock]

usability as a metric matters the most to the designer

[daring imp]

Yes

[quasi wharf]

but isn't part of usability knowing the user

[ebon rock]

potentially

but whats the delta from knowing if just human beings can use it?

and what do you gain by having a smaller delta

[quasi wharf]

but is it so wrong for design to want to talk to clients so that they can better emphasize with them?

we need empathy!!

[thorny ermine]

if you ask Brian " what is your favorite color?" do you know Brian? Do you know who he is as a person? his life goals? what makes him anxious?

No. You know what his favorite color is.

Usability is only an aspect of the user and that is only a small piece of the pie a designer might have.

[quasi wharf]

right now i just feel like my designs don't have as much empathy as it could

you guys are right about the usability thing but i want to go back to empathy

i cant believe pms should know the user more than the designer

[daring imp]

Ok I'll bite. Describe what you mean when you say your designs don't have as much empathy.

[quasi wharf]

like i cant step into the shoes of the user to know what they want from the design (or from the feature im designing)

i don't have the context

for example, what piece of info do they value more than the other? knowing that will let me better design with that content hierarchy in mind

[ebon rock]

sorry I was eating

I can feel that, I guess I wonder why you think that talking to a user will help you understand what piece of information is the most valuable if you can't already infer that from what they're trying to accomplish

[quasi wharf]

no worries!! you guys don't have to reply asap 😇

[ebon rock]

like lets say you do get to talk to 4-5 users

[quasi wharf]

how else can i know prototype?

[ebon rock]

you have to infer from goals

[quasi wharf]

enlighten me!

lol

im sure talking to them will let me understand their context and understand their mindset and all of that

[ebon rock]

Like, if I'm trying to download an image on Google Drive, I can probably map out what information is the most important to me accomplishing that task

[quasi wharf]

its the qualitative research part

[ebon rock]

without knowing anything about who is going to be using it

[quasi wharf]

i think thats a bit different

[ebon rock]

yeah I can understand that, but consider how many people might be using your system and how small of a sample size you're going to be working with.

[quasi wharf]

what im designing for is very specific for this user

unlike gdrive

[ebon rock]

in terms of research

[quasi wharf]

isnt having a small sample size better than not having any sample size at all?

[ebon rock]

a sample size of 5 is effectively a sample size of zero when it comes to behavioral data

you cant trust it, its as good as making a best guess

or potentially way worse

depending on how informed your decision makers are

like if I wanted to understand what people do first when they get into a car to drive somewhere

how many people do you think I would need to talk to, to be able to see trends in behavior

[quasi wharf]

but those products are very different

[gray roost]

I agree with this statement

[quasi wharf]

what im designing for is very niche for a specific user

just talking to some of them will be eye-opening

the problem right now is that i dont know anything about them. how can i design for someone i dont know?

[ebon rock]

but the blade cuts the other way too

[quasi wharf]

it doesnt have to be research

[ebon rock]

if waht you're making is very tailored and personal

[quasi wharf]

but i just want to know the user more

[ebon rock]

everyone is going to be different

and want something different

[gray roost]

I think niche and focused even more important to lean on PMs

[ebon rock]

and you might as well just design waht you believe is the optimal experience

and force your users to adopt that workflow

[quasi wharf]

and im not sure if you guys saw the convo leading up to this thread but thats my problem right now

i dont want to be this robot designer designing with no empathy

[ebon rock]

Just as an example, do you think Apple designs with empathy?

[quasi wharf]

the problem is we dont have a pm too

[dapper jolt]

It’s not wrong but have to be “realistic” and balance things out

[ebon rock]

because most designers are large companies like Apple don't get to talk directly with users either

it isnt their... responsibility

to own that information

or to own "empathy"

[quasi wharf]

wha!!

[daring imp]

Yep

[thorny ermine]

I have never used the word "empathy" at work

[quasi wharf]

oh man im just so lost

[gray roost]

Yeah, I don’t know if many if any company that works as you’re hoping or describing.

[ebon rock]

none of the big ones do

[dapper jolt]

I also think you might be using empathy as a magic bullet that solves everything - even the most empathetic person isn’t actually the user you might approach it but what actually matters is to get something out and test it with the actual user or market if they wanted it

[gray roost]

Maybe a mid sized company of like 12 designers?

[ebon rock]

but these companies employ researchers who do gather data

[gray roost]

But big corp the users are even more guarded

[ebon rock]

and PM's who own product knowledge

[quasi wharf]

ok guys let me ask you this

[ebon rock]

and marketing people who do customer research etc.

[dapper jolt]

I get to talk to my users on a weekly basis but I’m pretty sure that is… special case never had this ever before

[ebon rock]

strategy people who talk to customers for product fit / market fit

[quasi wharf]

arent there designers who own research because the company isnt at the stage where they have researchers

[ebon rock]

I think you can own the research activity, as in

act as the researcher

but the knowledge isnt owned by design

[gray roost]

Hmm I don’t know if a product designer could really do both

[daring imp]

Agreed with research activities

[thorny ermine]

I mean you can whether you do it well is a different statement

[gray roost]

Like if you’re a company spending time doing both you need a researcher

[ebon rock]

hey, i do plenty of bad things. sometimes they look like research.

[daring imp]

Design does not own research

[quasi wharf]

who owns research if theres no researcher?

[ebon rock]

the PM

[gray roost]

Like at least not the level I should be doing, I guess

[quasi wharf]

ahhh

[ebon rock]

they do research anyways

[thorny ermine]

if there is no pm, the ceo

[daring imp]

Yes or whoever is managing the product

[dapper jolt]

Never thought of who owns research

[ebon rock]

competitive analysis, market fit, strategy, etc. is all owned by the PM (or should be)

because they're the one who defines what it needs to do

in order to be successful

design just figures out how it does it

[gray roost]

I think schools really teach it differently than what goes down

[ebon rock]

so your question about information hierarchy is relevant. tahts part of "how it does it"

[quasi wharf]

why are we called ux designers!! 😭 😢 😵‍💫

[dapper jolt]

@thorny ermine I’m serious like… idk maybe I’m just too held up on the word “own”

[ebon rock]

remember when we had the convo about how UX isnt really a thing 😉

[dapper jolt]

Lol didn’t Prototype share that article

[ebon rock]

I mean, it is because people call us UX designers but

[dapper jolt]

There was a super lengthy argument

[ebon rock]

the real world is muddy.

[gray roost]

If you like doing research and want to focus on it, I think it’s good to become a researcher

[ebon rock]

and everyone company, every team is different

[daring imp]

Because we're accountable for the output of the experience...er, design

Titles = accountability

[gray roost]

What users experience

[ebon rock]

yes, I'd say that is probably the real relevant point. if something experience-related isnt getting done, the designer is the one who usually has to figure it out.

or get on someone else

to do it

MAKE A 404 EXPERIENCE, WE FORGOT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN OUR S3 BUCKET GOES DOWN

"What does the loading animation look like?"

"Engineering thinks this screen will take 45 seocnds to load. waht do?"

[thorny ermine]

obviously share cat gifs

[daring imp]

Dinosaur jumping game

[ebon rock]

PM = ask the designer to tell us waht the optimal experience is

me = let me learn after effects real fast

[thorny ermine]

me = smart animate pls work

[ebon rock]

I'm sorry this was uh, not the answers you were hoping for

[quasi wharf]

lol im just trying to digest this

were all designers here right?

like hearing all of this makes me feel like designers are being condescended?

[tranquil solar]

Since empathy was brought up here's a nice article on the topic that i like: https://xd.adobe.com/ideas/perspectives/leadership-insights/why-i-dont-believe-in-empathic-design-don-norman/

[ebon rock]

I currently manage a design team for a 45B pharma tech company, but previously I led a design for jaguar land rover, and ui.com and helped a friend start up thje biggest esports org in the US, and every company i've ever worked for has been

approximately this

for better or worse

[dapper jolt]

I think you should check out the naval gazing video

[ebon rock]

oh yeah thats a good one

[thorny ermine]

might I gently suggest the other side where perhaps designers are not more important than anyone else in the org

[visual coral]

No.

[ebon rock]

ANDY PLS

[daring imp]

ANDY

[thorny ermine]

SMART ANIMATE ALL DAY

[daring imp]

Why are you here

[thorny ermine]

fr not even a designer

[ebon rock]

he's still in quarantine in the netherlands

prob in some swanky company apt

[daring imp]

Prolly

[dapper jolt]

https://www.intercom.com/blog/the-end-of-navel-gazing/

[visual coral]

Why not

[ebon rock]

drinking bubble tea and eating herring

[dapper jolt]

@quasi wharf

[quasi wharf]

i never thought designers were more important but just hearing this makes us seem less valuable? 😔

[thorny ermine]

he is uncultured. doesnt know what bubble tea is

[uncut ginkgo]

bad mentors getting derailed

[ebon rock]

design is valuable, its part of the trio

[quasi wharf]

^lol

[visual coral]

Get help.

[quasi wharf]

lol to ben*

[ebon rock]

its just design doesnt lead the trio

this is from airbnb or something

i dont remember

[daring imp]

Spotify

We talked about this

[ebon rock]

but it explains the product trio

oh, lol

yeah that makes sense, maybe ben gave it to me

er. not our ben

spotify ben

[visual coral]

You use smart animate, I don’t wanna hear it…

[daring imp]

In most places, design is tactical, not strategic.

[thorny ermine]

perhaps we need to learn the other roles and the type of value they deliver alongside design because this conversation is not condescending towards designers in any way

[visual coral]

https://tenor.com/view/hooray-its-weekend-ok-bye-ciao-slide-gif-15739082

[ebon rock]

most of us are designers

[quasi wharf]

i remember that doc prototype! and i read it 😊

[ebon rock]

oh, lol

[queen stag]

You wouldn’t think that if you’ve used a product that didn’t have a designer involved

[daring imp]

SAP

Google it

And they have designers involved

It could always be worse

[ebon rock]

lotus notes

clearly

oh wait, any software that uses SVN

[queen stag]

I’m just thinking about the last hackathon we had where devs worked on projects and then presented them to the company

[thorny ermine]

most everyone here will not know what svn is

[ebon rock]

everything about svn hurts me

oh where did my image go

[thorny ermine]

and they are blessed for not knowing what it is

[queen stag]

We should rename it “this is why we have designers” day

[gray roost]

I’m a senior ux designer at a big tech company

[thorny ermine]

why would you share that

[ebon rock]

I had to design a version control system for altran

and the devs were like

MAKE IT LIKE SVN

and i was like no

god no

[thorny ermine]

developers...

[daring imp]

DevUI as a term exists for a reason

[ebon rock]

they were all french

idk

[thorny ermine]

baguette

[daring imp]

And it isn't ever spoken positively

[gray roost]

Wait are y’all getting derailed what is this screenshot

[ebon rock]

svn

[daring imp]

Yea we derailed

[queen stag]

Through our experience using things and learning from previous projects, every designer builds up a library of patterns that we can apply to different situations

[visual coral]

Okay I had to come back to say what the (expletive) is that?

[queen stag]

And we learn fundamental ways of thinking about interaction design

[thorny ermine]

"product sense"

[ebon rock]

its clearly the worst of all the version control systems

its like git, if you hate yourself

[gray roost]

On a whole I think everyone who wrote something here are designers professionally minus bigbrainer. But bigbrainer also designer

[ebon rock]

product thinking is a thing!

[visual coral]

Hmmmmmmm

[thorny ermine]

WAO IM DEFINITELY A DESIGNER OKAY

[gray roost]

Okay I’m sorry

[ebon rock]

yeah, I mean I will say we're all kind of late in our careers

minus hanna who is 22

[thorny ermine]

and andy who is 11

[ebon rock]

and andy who is 11

[visual coral]

Oh, well that’s very sad

I’m 12 now okay

[queen stag]

I’ve been with my wife for almost 10 years, and I still don’t always get her

[visual coral]

Jesus 11 was so last year

[queen stag]

I know her better than anyone

[ebon rock]

yeah we derailing real bad

LOL

[gray roost]

I’m not 22

[thorny ermine]

serena probably already left tbh

[ebon rock]

Jordan and Brian both lead product design functions of their respective companies. I'm a product design manager now :(((((

[thorny ermine]

she's probably thinking we have no credibility at this point

[queen stag]

The idea that we could fully understand a user… it’s just not possible

[gray roost]

I’m a babeh designer compared to prototype, Brian and Jordan

[visual coral]

It’s already the worst that happens is one more person thinks I’m dumb

[thorny ermine]

and users are constantly evolving

research one month will vary from the next month

[gray roost]

Well it’s probably because we get distracted too easily

[ebon rock]

I think if you werent in your current role, you'd be managing a team too rn

its just taht your current company is bigger than ours 😛

[thorny ermine]

way bigger

[ebon rock]

just a little bit

[gray roost]

[thorny ermine]

hanna could be a ceo

if she left

[ebon rock]

CEO of our hearts and minds

[visual coral]

Dunno what u mean my focus levels are unmatched

[thorny ermine]

no she could make an llc

[ebon rock]

new plan. we form a company, hire andy. workhorse him to death

[visual coral]

Wtf

[thorny ermine]

why andy

[visual coral]

That’s child abuse

I’m 12

[thorny ermine]

you think he could pass our rigorous interview process?

"what is your design process"

[visual coral]

You think you could live up to my interview process standards?

[ebon rock]

we can just take turns bringing him to father / son work day

mother / daughterw/e its called

[thorny ermine]

andy- i dunno just throw stuff on figma

[ebon rock]

parent/child

[visual coral]

I’m down @ebon rock

[thorny ermine]

wtf

[visual coral]

But I don’t have to do anything right

[thorny ermine]

you have to not swear

[visual coral]

Oh

That’s gonna be a problem

[visual coral]

You can’t explain excellence

[thorny ermine]

tru tru you are the most excellent of the excellenters

[visual coral]

Nice

[dapper jolt]

https://tenor.com/view/freewayexit-powerslide-topgear-exit-slide-gif-3398213

[quasi wharf]

lol sorry guys was ordering boba! im still here 😆

[dapper jolt]

@gray roost is boba still accessible in TX as it is in SF

[gray roost]

O m g

Did I tell you????? I am walking distance from boba

Walking!

[dapper jolt]

[gray roost]

I live next to a 99 ranch

And kbbq, and Korean fried chicken, and ramen and sushi

[dapper jolt]

Whoaaaa

Ok I don’t know what a 99 ranch is lol

[thorny ermine]

RANCH 99

[thorny ermine]

if you have more q's ask while we are here

we get easily distracted

and specifically ping Brian and Prototype

[ebon rock]

no pls

i am never distracted

i am razor focused

laser focused?

hmm.

[thorny ermine]

boba focused

[quasi wharf]

aw thanks guys! i always have questions haha

[thorny ermine]

but ping brian and prototype

[ebon rock]

pls

[thorny ermine]

nobody else

just brian and prototype

24/7

[ebon rock]

https://giphy.com/gifs/pPQyXGxwx272E

I have very strong opinions

about things

[small scroll]

awesomeness is what it is

and hey y'all, this has been a great read

[quasi wharf]

I want to go back on brian's point on this. if this is the case, how do we designers get sales, cx, and cs's insights on the user? a problem in my startup is that these teams don't know how to give us user feedback or share problems/insights which makes sense since they aren't product people

[dapper jolt]

Go ask them and teach them what you’re looking for

[small scroll]

not to be blunt but...ask?

[quasi wharf]

lol i want to but they are constantly busy with clients and us product people are told not to bother them...

theres a real disconnect with them and the product/tech team

[thorny ermine]

People will always make time for people if they want to. Are you someone people want to make time for?

[small scroll]

that's a potentially bigger issue to deal with, but you really can't schedule 30 minutes with a few different people so you can find out more of what they know about the people you're designing for?

[quasi wharf]

no we cant

i think its super strange

[thorny ermine]

I would gently nudge you to ask yourself that question and see how you can convince people to make time for you.

Nobody is owed a meeting or time other than the person paying the paycheck.

[dapper jolt]

Who told you you can’t

[quasi wharf]

ceo "don't bother sales, they are busy selling" "cs and cx are constantly swamped"

[dapper jolt]

Just find a way to not bother them 🙂 I’m sure you’ll find a way

[small scroll]

appealing to ego often works

[quasi wharf]

its not wrong for me to do so right? or should i be leaving the nonexistent pm to do that 😐

dont want to be stepping on people's toes after all...

[dapper jolt]

If the PM doesn’t exist you then have to step up

There’s no hard set roles and etc esp in startups 🙂

Just make a plan show how it’s not going to impact sales share the plan and off you go

[quasi wharf]

yesss thats what ive been trying to do

[dapper jolt]

You most likely to save time need to have questions in mind first

[quasi wharf]

and if there's a pm, i shouldn't be doing this?

[dapper jolt]

You should still do it imho

Does it help you learn about the customer?

How come you wouldn’t 🙂

Maybe I’m not fully understanding your question

[quasi wharf]

right thats what i think! but what i kinda got from this convo is that i need to step back and not want to always think about users?

lol

[dapper jolt]

I don’t think that’s what ppl said

But rather you can’t see it as only the ux designers job

And it doesn’t always have to be behind research before you do something

[small scroll]

and that you can get a lot of that info in different ways rather than talking directly to users

[dapper jolt]

Personally I think you’re shutting things down when someone says no at work too easily

[quasi wharf]

maybe but i dont want to be that pushy/overbearng person? the person whos always fighting for things? stepping on people's toes?

[dapper jolt]

There’s hills to die on sometimes

When you feel like you need to

And that’s where tact comes in

There’s ways to do it without offending people

[quasi wharf]

☹️

this may not be related as much, but let me ask you this - how do you feel about a ceo just throwing a scrappy balsamiq wireframe at you and telling you to make it pretty?

[dapper jolt]

I’ll be frank sometimes that happens

I think we talked about that last time too

But I would look at the thing see if there’s glaring issues

If yes bring it up

[quasi wharf]

yes we did but it ties back to this convo in a way cause his reasoning is that i dont know the user so all i should focus on is the UI and not the holistic UX

this is partly why im so adamant about knowing the user more

it seems condescending to a designer to do that

i dont know man

i just cringe so much

[small scroll]

but someone there does know the user, or at least more than you do. book them for 30 minutes and have a list or questions ready to go. or ask if you can buy them a coffee. chat them up at lunch. ping them on slack.

[dapper jolt]

I think you might be focusing too much on “what a UX designer should do and shouldn’t do”

“A ux designer shouldn’t only do UI it’s degrading”

[quasi wharf]

is it wrong to feel that way? ^

[dapper jolt]

It’s not but what are you going to do about those feelings and resolve it

[quasi wharf]

i know what you mean chris, but i dont feel empowered to do so. it will always seem like bothering people

[small scroll]

and sometimes the job is just to design a button because you need a button

[dapper jolt]

I do think that’s atm an internal problem

If that makes sense

You have to ask for the help

If you don’t sometimes they don’t know

[small scroll]

yeah, I'd tend to agree. if you don't feel like you can approach a coworker to ask about anything that's really odd.

[dapper jolt]

You might be taking things too much at face value

[quasi wharf]

i do talk about it all the time. early in the convo i mentioned that i keep getting push back

[dapper jolt]

For example ceo said don’t bother them I don’t think that doesn’t mean don’t talk to them at all

Just make sure time wise it’s not too much meeting time etc etc

[quasi wharf]

it may be an internal thing but i guess thats why im talking with you guys to see whats right and normal

if this is how a 30-person startup just is then maybe its time for me to leave

[small scroll]

I don't think the company size/stage itself is the issue

I just can't imagine that a company really says "no, don't talk to anyone and just do this", or as Kenny said maybe you're taking that too much at face value. there's back and forth about lots of things every day in most jobs, bothering someone is different than learning what you need to do your job.

[dapper jolt]

Imo here’s the question

Are you still learning?

And have you learned from this exp how to solve the challenge

[quasi wharf]

as a designer? no

there are all these skills i want to learn/brush up on and im not given the chance to do so

i cant be doing UI forever

thats not a product designer

i need to work on UX

research

analyze data

everything a full fledge product designer does

[stiff ginkgo]

Something to consider might be that as a designer you get different responsibilities at different levels as well. Sometimes what they need at that moment is better UI to help show and test the product where it's currently at and that's your role at this particular moment (UI isn't lesser than UX, it is a part of it to some extent). Wether you control direction or execution changes as you go up the ladder and have different priorities and are able to delegate

[dapper jolt]

You need to push for some of those (if that makes sense)

And what Allyson said

Why not fix the product user test thr product and learn there too

[stiff ginkgo]

I think you have the most context of when is a good time to push or a good time to provide what's needed. It's a product that has to eventually go live so they can't spend time prepping and planning instead of doing sometimes better to get feedback on something tangible vs something that sounds good on paper bc of some interviews

[dapper jolt]

Sometimes it’s about seeing what the business wants and strategically planning UX in the future if they’re not receptive to it at first

[stiff ginkgo]

But I do see your concern where you have an idea of what things could really help this process, but if you don't have buy in from higher up or the resources (time, ppl, etc) then it might be best to make the most of what you got and test what you want to know

[quasi wharf]

i totally get doing what the business needs, and ive done that for over a year. now im being reflective of my career growth and i obviously want to grow as a designer

and not be a robot forever

[thorny ermine]

Would you consider a product designer at Google someone that is a full-fledged designer?

I'm going to give it to you straight because this is a lot of roundabout conversation.

Product designers at Google, Amazon, many large corporations never do research. Ever.

They don't talk to customers.

Are you saying that these designers are not full-fledged designers?

[quasi wharf]

putting research aside

[thorny ermine]

Take some time to ask yourself how and why you've gotten to this specific definition of full-fledged designer

[quasi wharf]

they still do more than just UI

[daring imp]

At the end of the day if you are dissatisfied with where you're at, start looking

You have a job now to keep you afloat, look for companies that you think more closely align with what you want to do next

Ask pointed questions

And if they are satisfactory

Try to land it

[dapper jolt]

If the looking isn’t successful then you go back and learn more until you can be

[daring imp]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

If you want to have greater control over things that happen during discovery, find a place that allows for it

[thorny ermine]

I feel really bothered that you consider UI just this small thing.

it takes decades of practice to hone visual skills

[dapper jolt]

But @thorny ermine the ketchup bottle

@quasi wharf a big part of UX is UI as well

Ux wirh just research and no UI to reflect the research is … well idk if u ask me

It’s still nothing

As a junior, a lot of companies start out by wanting a lot of “execution”

I think @daring imp mentioned that once in a LinkedIn post

[quasi wharf]

guys i know ui is not small! but i dont want to ONLY be doing that. you know what i mean?

[dapper jolt]

I totally know what you mean but only You

[quasi wharf]

this is what ive come to understand a product designer to be: https://youtu.be/gEYq6GFAFCs?t=258o

[dapper jolt]

Can make that happen

[dapper jolt]

If you want to use more data in your design go forth and do so 🙂

[quasi wharf]

at 4:23 sec if the link doesnt take you there

[dapper jolt]

Find ways to do it in the constraints they’ve given you

[quasi wharf]

we are not tracking data and ive constantly asked to do this

[dapper jolt]

There’s no data at all or there’s no specific data you want

[quasi wharf]

no data at all

no ones tracking anything

in this video, im not doing even 50% of the responsibilities mentioned

im not doing interactions cause well you guys already know the answer to do that

im not doing content, copy - that is given from the ceo "since he knows the user more" -_-

im not using data to inform design decisions

and she mentions conducting usability tests

nope not doing that either

and we already talked about research

[dapper jolt]

First of all I would say the video is an example all orgs are different

[daring imp]

Right. Most of these things you're describing require a great deal of investment from the business

[quasi wharf]

am i understanding the problem space? nope not doing that either cause everything is guessing!

[dapper jolt]

Ux is dealing with a lot of uncertainty and often it begins by guessing

[daring imp]

Instacart has over 2k employees globally

[ebon rock]

yeah i'd also point out that she says "includes user testing with a researcher"

and its one of the activities in her "20% data" bucket

[quasi wharf]

yes with a researcher, and if there isnt i should own it but im not empowered to do so

[stiff ginkgo]

It sounds like you've brought up your concerns and someone higher up is saying "no" for one reason or another. Could be a variety of things we've mentioned, but if you're seeing that gap and it can't be fixed then maybe it is better to look elsewhere for what you want to be doing. But every company and role is different, when you're interviewing you can have a better idea of what you want to go for

[ebon rock]

ehhh, I dunno. Your definition of research is

gonna be different than what a researchers definition is

[quasi wharf]

of course i know the researcher does it best

look i dont want to be a pro researcher

i just want to learn the skill

just all of these skills

and allyson yes im realizing this

[ebon rock]

usability testing, sure. I dont think anyone has an actual problem with usability testing, but even a researcher would understand that it's not the highest priority activity

especially for someone who is the only designer

as a researcher here once put it, heuristics > usability testing

[dapper jolt]

Serena I think there’s some questions you have to ask yourself too:
If your ceo said go research
-what is the research

• what are you actually looking for
  -why have you chosen to validate that specific way

If you haven’t thought about these yet it might be hard to convince the ceo too

The answer cannot be “I want to do user research” —> “what specifically do you want to know” is most likely what they’re going to say

[quasi wharf]

i have made specific research plans

[small scroll]

my big takeaway from this video is that BBQ in San Francisco makes me sad

[dapper jolt]

So do you know why those plans work or maybe don’t work and why business isn’t focusing on it atm

[quasi wharf]

he has told me to design a feature but thats too feature-oriented and imo we need to understand the problem first before finding a solution and not just build a feature for the sake of building a feature and because his instincts say so - so i took the initiative to write a whole doc specifying what the problem is, what context we have (and need to get from research), what the user needs are (which are also assumptions and need to be validated with research), what the user, business, product goals are, what our constraints are, what our other assumptions are (which again we should validate with research), what use cases to think about (again we also should validate), and asking questions on what success looks like when we dont even have baseline data lol. then i made a research plan with what research methods we can use to get the insights we need (one of them was user interviews so i listed out all the questions, the whole methodology and everything i can think of! you guys get the point! )

yes these are probably run on sentences lol

outcome of that was it got brushed off, he made a p0 wireframe and told me to make it pretty

[small scroll]

so there's kind of two options here....

1. research research validate research validate etc.
2. make a best guess at the thing to make based on what you know and get it in the hands of users and see if it works

[dapper jolt]

It sounds like maybe you also didn’t speak his language

An entire document could’ve scared him

[quasi wharf]

chris not sure if you read the earlier convo but dont you think its more efficient to take the time to understand the user so that you can design more productively and get more progress vs just spending eng time building a bunch of things, guessing, and making slow progress?

[dapper jolt]

Sometimes it’s easier to build an mvp test

Test and find out first

Honest answer

Mvp doesn’t have to be full wireframes

There’s many ways to test a market hypothesis

And it doesn’t have to be overly complicated full blown research

[quasi wharf]

it wasnt complicated i promise

[small scroll]

just from your summary it sounds like a lot, even if it wasn't to you. or at least it might have to the CEO.

if I can make a recommendation:
https://www.amazon.com/User-Experience-Team-One-Research/dp/1933820187

[quasi wharf]

it didnt happen in all one setting

kenny was asking if i asked myself these questions to make a case for research

[small scroll]

really good read, and every chapter has a "if you can only do one thing, do this" recommendation. and that may be the way you need to go (at least to start).

[quasi wharf]

so yes i did

haha

[dapper jolt]

I think maybe he’s expecting you to go learn and find out what the problem is

His direction was “I would like this feature”

[quasi wharf]

chris but i want to do everything!

sounds like i need to leave

[dapper jolt]

[quasi wharf]

perhaps i should try to go to instacart lol

[dapper jolt]

I mean if that makes you happy lol

There’s no harm in trying

[quasi wharf]

you guys keep reasoning thats how a startup is so yea

im done with being a feature oriented team

it sucks

there i said it

[dapper jolt]

But that’s what PD is like

[small scroll]

but the thing is you really never get to do everything. in my role I do a lot of user testing and interviews, but even so there's lots of times where I just have to make a best guess and go for it.

[dapper jolt]

I mean like

[small scroll]

sometimes it works great and sometimes it doesnt

(and I work for a multibillion dollar company)

[quasi wharf]

i want to be in a product oriented team

https://svpg.com/product-vs-feature-teams/

chris i want to do user tesitng and interviews like you!

lol i sound whiny now

do you guys feel me though?

im not crazy right?

[stiff ginkgo]

The bigger the company the more likely there are dedicated ppl for some of the things you'd want to do. Smaller the company maybe tighter timelines and resources so gotta choose what works at that moment to get something out. It's good you're figuring out what you want to be doing so when you interview you can ask about their day to day and what kind of projects they work on etc

[dapper jolt]

You can do that like legit nobody is stopping you

You get your work done and you do research to complete your work just make sure you get your work done

[dapper jolt]

No you’re not crazy there’s nothing wrong with what you want but you have to execute what you want with business tact

So you make your ceo happy

And also you are happy

[small scroll]

totally understand, but also worth noting that about 90% of the time I design things before I ever get to talk to users. I'm talking to people in my org that know what we're trying to do, work out some ideas, and we try stuff to see if it works.

to be clear, if you're not happy with what you're doing then totally look for something else. but it also sounds like you could have a lot more success working within the constraints that you've got, even if they're not ideal or you don't like them.

[stiff ginkgo]

I don't think you're crazy btw lol I'm just typing on my phone and not great with words sometimes but I think there's an "ideal" where you have all the time and resources you could want, and then there's a "we need to ship and actually deliver and present and make progress". And it sounds like you're putting pressure on yourself to learn, make all the right decisions, etc when it's an iterative process

Agreed with Chris though like for real if you wanna go elsewhere do that bc you know your day to day best

[dapper jolt]

I just realized too I think a big underlying assumption you could be making atm is just that your ceo doesn’t know and you don’t agree with the direction

[stiff ginkgo]

But just wanna make sure you hear it's ok that things aren't going perfectly and you don't have to rush through what you're learning. Sounds like this challenge you're having now is even something to learn from

I would also say that going to a place where you have seniors and mentorship would be awesome

Having the pressure of solo designer, delivering, pleasing CEO, and wanting to learn a variety of things is a lot

[quasi wharf]

yes i really want to be in a design team with designers to learn from

[dapper jolt]

Which on I totally get but at the same there’s different ways to prioritize tasks and just because the feature isn’t what you wanted doesn’t mean it’s not product oriented team (if that makes sense)

Kano model might be something you want to look at

[dapper jolt]

Then make sure for your next job that’s a requirement

That there’s other more senior designers or a design manager

[quasi wharf]

its too lonely here and feel like the team doesnt understand designers

its hard to advocate for designers when im the only one

kenny ill be honest that that was always what i was looking for but its more competitive getting a job at a bigger company here in the bay

[dapper jolt]

I’m at a start up and atm I made sure that there’s a design team lead

And 5-6 other designers in the org

I get what you mean but also pls make sure you’re not switching places too often

It doesn’t… look good if it’s a pattern

[quasi wharf]

i did the self-learning journey to product design (transitioned from being an architect) so i was competing with students with internship experience already

[dapper jolt]

I understand i career switched after working 4 years in a different career as well

You’re not “behind” because you came from Architecture

[stiff ginkgo]

If it helps a bit, you having experience is already really helpful vs probably when you were first searching as someone with no exp

[quasi wharf]

thanks guys, it does 😢

[stiff ginkgo]

Maybe try to make the best of what you can in this position while sprucing up your stuff? Doesn't seem like there's a big rush to leave that place atm other than you feeling unsatisfied with what you currently deliver, but that's still good practice and something to put on the resume 👍🏼

[quasi wharf]

yea ive been debating that allyson

partly why i had this whole convo with you guys for advice

[small scroll]

and you're not behind anyone, we're all on own path. I switched into UX after a decade plus in marketing and web design, so if you're behind I'm screwed 😉