Also what do you think of [[wild pair]]?
#Eat Your Veggies! Communal Brewing
pastel blaze
bright kilnBOT
mellow mirage
Could be good but would definitely need built around
Wotc does not like being consistent with their p/ts at higher mana values
pastel blaze
IDK, from testing in the golgari veggies (finally got the list together IRL, just waiting for Wednesday to test it against people) it seems to be good even without dedicated setup
Kinda incidentally have a lot of overlapping values, only like... 4 creatures that don't fetch others
pastel blaze
Could be good but would definitely need built around
So maybe but feels like the only real build-around is making sure you have at least something to fetch? So far 6/6 is just a massive toolbox for the golgari veggies
My only issue is it has to be cast, and from your hand
Also HOLY CRAP golgari veggies is CRAZY
I need to like
Not ever tutor optimally
Because there are so many incidental tutors you get
Especially since belbe makes me able to run significantly different veggies, such as [[traverse the outlands]]
bright kilnBOT
pastel blaze
Also had a crazy t3 in testing of hit with belbe > cast skyshroud claim > use those untapped lands and leftover belbe mana for [[viewpoint synchronization]]
bright kilnBOT
Sorcery
Freerunning 
(You may cast this spell for its freerunning cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with an Assassin or commander.)
Search your library for up to three basic land cards and reveal them. Put two of them onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand, then shuffle.
pastel blaze
Me sitting here with 7 lands on t3 like wtf
mellow mirage
So maybe but feels like the only real build-around is making sure you have at le...
Yeah, that’s it mostly
Golgari veggies is cool, I just didn’t like the potential unreliability of Belbe’s requirement and the fact that it helps your opponents too
pastel blaze
Thats actually why I have a significant amount of sacrifice and destroy for creatures, gets belbe off the board early so they can't get much from her
My sibling also pointed out that she does prompt people to swing after I drop her, so even more likely someone is open
mellow mirage
True true
pastel blaze
The unreliability seems very low, especially considering I can use the more potent ramp to replace her if I try to get rid of her, and the upside is clearly massive. Definitely not perfect but I think it balances out fairly well
mellow mirage
@winged vault here’s the ashling deck I spooled up a while ago https://moxfield.com/decks/P8G4x7bbzEy8wVgClw7NjA
winged vault
<@139925479481147394> here’s the ashling deck I spooled up a while ago https://m...
I took a look already 😉 I'm brewing away, currently giggling at [[subjugate the hobbits]]
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winged vault
This is obviously going to be the best mizzix mastery deck of all time, im pretty excited
mellow mirage
It’s a very funny card yeah
This is a perfect mizzix’s mastery deck if you go the spellslinger route
steel gust
I took a look already 😉 I'm brewing away, currently giggling at [[subjugate the...
The giggles are contagious
mellow mirage
https://moxfield.com/decks/yzkoeU3HpkSmAX7OfdcGXg
I know i've asked about this before but I was curious of people's thoughts on this pride deck?
mellow mirage
I'm worried about the card draw not being potent enough
I know I don't need a lot of draw but I have ended with very few options in my temur list
Also - thoughts on [[Icetill explorer]] in a fetch-heavy deck being considered a veggie? I know it's not necessarily accurate but i feel like I'd be remiss to not suggest it
bright kilnBOT
pastel blaze
https://moxfield.com/decks/yzkoeU3HpkSmAX7OfdcGXg
I know i've asked about this ...
Gotten 2 games in with my golgari veggies deck so far so I have some suggestions to mention, looks mostly good though
Cut cityscape leveler for alpha death claw for sure, card slaps
Shriekwood Devourer honestly should still go in
Also Razaketh has been WILD, especially just holding the ability to chump block and sac or respond to removal
winged vault
https://moxfield.com/decks/aJP2emsqgUa2siX2dpAyag wokrking towards cuts now
I have a 100 to tinker with now
winged vault
lol not a bad turn 5
mellow mirage
lol not a bad turn 5
Why sphinx of the second sun?
winged vault
Why sphinx of the second sun?
In the deck, or this game?
mellow mirage
The deck
winged vault
So I can double spell on my turns
Since i'm not running any cost reducers, having other ways to double up I think is important, this is probably one of the lesser ones though
You don't like it?
mellow mirage
You don't like it?
It might not work how you think it does
Unless you mean to cast instants during your end step
Since the untap, upkeep, and draw happens after your second main phase
winged vault
Unless you mean to cast instants during your end step
Yeah, I valued the idea of hitting an extra big score effect pretty highly, but I have realized that i've gone from about 9 instants to 4, so its looking a lot goofier now
mellow mirage
Yeah unless you pretty consistently have instant speed stuff to do it’s not great
winged vault
Originally I was on stuff like FoF and [[elminsters simulacrum]]
bright kilnBOT
winged vault
A few swaps
pastel blaze
A few swaps
Wondrous Crucible slaps, card is just strong especially in a veggies deck
Probably cut oliphant tbh, mountain cycling is cool but the actual card itself is so lackluster
Flaming Tyranno is the only one I would recommend off the top of my head
Great removal engine
winged vault
Probably cut oliphant tbh, mountain cycling is cool but the actual card itself i...
Oliphaunt is just my 41st land really, its definitely a flex slot. I like tyranno here I think, im a little light on removal relative to most veggies deck I think, and this one is also a burn spell
pastel blaze
Oliphaunt is just my 41st land really, its definitely a flex slot. I like tyrann...
Main reason being that I think a normal cycle ability would be more useful, especially since they are normally stapled to better creatures.
Tyranno is amazing here for sure, card does work in my list and it has a bit less casting from other places (ofc I have partner so I get at least one guaranteed cast which helps).
winged vault
Someone should pin some of the more stable veggies list for reference
winged vault
Main reason being that I think a normal cycle ability would be more useful, espe...
Its a tyro now 🙂
pastel blaze
Someone should pin some of the more stable veggies list for reference
Stable veggies meaning veggies effects themselves that are reliable or a veggies deck list that is stable?
winged vault
Stable veggies meaning veggies effects themselves that are reliable or a veggies...
The second
pastel blaze
The second
(I mean, mine is pinned)
winged vault
(I mean, mine is pinned)
Oh, so it is. For some reason on mobile the pins werent showwing at ALL, and I thought there were no pins
pastel blaze
Oh lol
pastel blaze
Oh, so it is. For some reason on mobile the pins werent showwing at ALL, and I t...
Also have my older budget gruul list https://moxfield.com/decks/2kCZiHFaD0mnMFOr-9zzMQ
winged vault
Im thinking after doing a fair bit more playtesting im gonna paper out ashling, shes already so fun in teesting
Plus
I love the character since original lorwyn
pastel blaze
Yeah veggies decks honestly are just innately super fun due to both the way they play and the freedom with the list after you get the basics
Amplified further by a commander you like, definitely not surprised you are going for it lol
dire cobalt
Im certain this has been discussed: [[ruby daring tracker]]
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Legendary Creature — Human Scout
Haste (This creature can attack and 
as soon as it comes under your control.)
Whenever Ruby attacks while you control a creature with power 4 or greater, Ruby gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
: Add 
or .
Neither the sharpest thorns nor the foulest beasts would stop her from finding her brother.
1/2
pastel blaze
Im certain this has been discussed: [[ruby daring tracker]]
Yes, she has been
Its up here ^
dire cobalt
Almost mentioned Jyoti but that’s not a veggie
winged vault
Almost mentioned Jyoti but that’s not a veggie
I do want to do some brewing with inverted veggies. 2 drop ramp and a four drop ramp commander
dire cobalt
Jyoti is good for that
winged vault
Yeah thats one of the ones I was thinking about
pastel blaze
Jyoti is good for that
Eh its only one mana ramp though, probably prefer Arixmethes
winged vault
Arixmethes was my first thought as well
steel gust
Yeah veggies decks honestly are just innately super fun due to both the way they...
Veggies simulate being an excited new player again
Minus not knowing how to play
pastel blaze
Veggies simulate being an excited new player again
Also from my experience the consistency and resiliency make it a consistently good deck. You might not be taking over the game all the time, but I almost never feel like I am not a factor
Plus the feels bad moments are very few and far between from the consistent game plan and pretty good top decking it has
pallid hare
Ashling is now 3-for-3 at the budget league pod
Admittedly it was way overtuned the first two games
But yeah, Sunderflock and City on Fire are decent cards 👍
steel gust
Also from my experience the consistency and resiliency make it a consistently go...
Sunday games confirmed the consistency and resiliency.
The sense of invincibility was as high as cEDH Kinnan spinning to ignore Rhystic Studies.
mellow mirage
Ashling is now 3-for-3 at the budget league pod
Ooooh… i like the idea of making Ashling budget
winged vault
Mine is sub 100 with breathing room
pallid hare
I had to tone mine down because it was knocking ppl out t6 lol
At sub €75
Admittedly with a precon-like landbase but
[[Arcane Bombardment]], it turns out, is insanely cracked
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pastel blaze
I had to tone mine down because it was knocking ppl out t6 lol
Yeah this is why I ended up cutting mass haste and avoiding land untappers in mine, made it too combo capable and would just end up winning the game out of nowhere
Actively dumbing down a deck because its too strong is a weird feeling for me
mellow mirage
A fun veggie to run is [[nimbleclaw adept]]
bright kilnBOT
Creature — Dragon Wizard
Bigby's Hand — : Untap two other target permanents. Activate only as a sorcery and only once each turn.
"Don't worry, I can reach it."
2/3
pallid hare
can’t combo
It can, clunkily, in Izzet. Haste + Repeated Flicker
mellow mirage
Oof
winged vault
I had to tone mine down because it was knocking ppl out t6 lol
I want to play mine in a live game first, but few spells have been a little too close to gg on t5 in llaytest for me. Especially omni and animatous, thiugh can I cut those? Idk
winged vault
A fun veggie to run is [[nimbleclaw adept]]
Im on this one for sure
mellow mirage
Yeah I had to cut a LOT of the freecast stuff
In my temur list I would frequently dump deck by t4
When it was firing on all cylinders
winged vault
My creature veggies are the two wizard trigger doublers, neheb, nimbleclaw, and honorable mention chandra
Im on 14-15~, debating cutting Neheb every day
mellow mirage
Chandra is so good
Like i would argue it’s one of the best veggies for flexibility alone
winged vault
For sure
mellow mirage
Neheb i’m not as big on conceptually
winged vault
I like that its card selection
And a veggie, thats a short list
Sort of a pseudo bonders ornament vibe
But it seems bad
And super inconsistent
mellow mirage
I do not like the prospect of the commander or veggie requiring combat
Belbe is apparently working wonders for Kaos but I’m not into it
pallid hare
I want to play mine in a live game first, but few spells have been a little too ...
Aminatou's Augury is a banger. I use [[One with the Multiverse]] as well
bright kilnBOT
pallid hare
My creature veggies are the two wizard trigger doublers, neheb, nimbleclaw, and ...
Don't forget the Elemental Doubler!
mellow mirage
Not quite but still a cool list!
mellow mirage
Veggies are a pretty specific thing, it’s just the application that varies
winged vault
Aminatou's Augury is a banger. I use [[One with the Multiverse]] as well
Same. last time I cast Augury it flipped into the flashback and triple 3 times spell lmao
slate vessel
I forgot I had this list https://archidekt.com/decks/22768488/radhas_raiding
winged vault
Don't forget the Elemental Doubler!
I think he might be one of the wizard dohblers in my head. The UR 4 cmc one
slate vessel
[[Twinflame Travelers]]
bright kilnBOT
winged vault
Yeah
pallid hare
My Prismari precon arrived today and seems like a decent start to an Ashling deck 🤔👀
Might have to put it together irl too
slate vessel
It has the bones of a decent big spells matter deck, but it feels significantly weaker than the other precons
At least in my experience
[[Screamer Killer]] has been CRACKED in my playtesting
bright kilnBOT
pallid hare
It has the bones of a decent big spells matter deck, but it feels significantly ...
It's just lacking some very cheap big dumb spells and some spells I already have. Like City on Fire, [[Sunderflock]], [[Collective Inferno]] and [[Chronicle of Victory]]
bright kilnBOT
Creature — Elemental
This spell costs 
less to cast, where X is the greatest mana value among Elementals you control.
Flying
When this creature enters, if you cast it, return all non-Elemental creatures to their owners' hands.
5/5
Enchantment
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 
or one mana of that creature's color.)
As this enchantment enters, choose a creature type.
Double all damage that sources you control of the chosen type would deal.
pallid hare
It has the bones of a decent big spells matter deck, but it feels significantly ...
Although if you want to play it with Rootha herself, the secret is extra combats
steel gust
Im on 14-15~, debating cutting Neheb every day
Neheb is 5cmc, correct?
Making 3 from afflict trigger?
Or 4 without blocks.
winged vault
Neheb is 5cmc, correct?
Other neheb
steel gust
I see now.
steel gust
Risk reward ratio looks juicy.
winged vault
I stand by wanting to test this guy. I see the issues, but the upsides are quite high
Biggest mana veggie, and card selection
steel gust
No disagreement here.
winged vault
https://moxfield.com/decks/aJP2emsqgUa2siX2dpAyag hes my 14th veggie
pastel blaze
Belbe is apparently working wonders for Kaos but I’m not into it
This is mainly because I only need to land a hit on t3, a veggie is getting a bit late to be reliable
pastel blaze
Not from my last 5 games, only one did everyone have a creature down on t3 and someone had swung their's to get the mana from belbe so I was still able to get my swing in
winged vault
My experience is that I can almost always connect a creature in b3 t3, ymmv
mellow mirage
Not from my last 5 games, only one did everyone have a creature down on t3 and s...
Which is a good point, they also tap their iwn stuff down. My only issue is if they know what your deck does then they may not go with it
Like I might intentionally leave a blocker up if I know what kinda bull you can pull off in that deck
pastel blaze
Like I might intentionally leave a blocker up if I know what kinda bull you can ...
Problem is they have to:
Get a blocker down
Be willing to lose said blocker
Not swing it for belbe trigger
Have 2 other players do the same
winged vault
Like I might intentionally leave a blocker up if I know what kinda bull you can ...
Arguably this is an issue with our archetype in general, no?
pastel blaze
Arguably this is an issue with our archetype in general, no?
No
winged vault
The first comment
I mean if they know what youre up to, having a worse time
Arent we pretty soft to people knowing what were doing and focusing interaction early?
pastel blaze
Not unless they specifically counterspell your veggies
Stopping the mander only slows the deck down a single turn
mellow mirage
Arguably this is an issue with our archetype in general, no?
One method (A tier) requires a removal spell. Belbe requires I have one (1) blocker
pastel blaze
A mander that needs combat damage has significantly more that can stop them
pastel blaze
One method (A tier) requires a removal spell. Belbe requires I have one (1) bloc...
Or a removal spell ^
More ways to stop it
mellow mirage
There’s a big difference in gameplay between a 99% chance and a 90% chance
99% of the time people aren’t gonna remove your Susan
90% of the time your belbe gets through, that means more often than Susan you won’t be able to veggie
Not to mention you’re also racing people with Belbe specifically
winged vault
99% of the time people aren’t gonna remove your Susan
In a vacuum. I feel like if they know what youre up to they are more likely to, is my point.
mellow mirage
Because rhey also get the benefit of the ramp, and in fact get it before you do
winged vault
Stopping the mander only slows the deck down a single turn
Two turns?
mellow mirage
In a vacuum. I feel like if they know what youre up to they are more likely to, ...
Not in my experience
pastel blaze
Two turns?
No, one turn
mellow mirage
My friends have seen my susan deck many times and have only once yet removed her
winged vault
worst case is the veggie gets countered too lmao
pastel blaze
Actual worst case is not finding the 4th land, but that should be rare
winged vault
Or missing land 4
pastel blaze
Much of the time I have a second veggie
pastel blaze
Yeah hitting any kind of ramp with counterspells is typically frowned upon
Unless its something huge like mana reflection
mellow mirage
Ye
pastel blaze
All of this requires multiple things to go wrong though, which isn't common
winged vault
Yeah hitting any kind of ramp with counterspells is typically frowned upon
But its probably the move, eh.
I usually advise people i play with to drop that stigma vs me, I think its pretty silly when playing vs an archetype like this
pastel blaze
Belbe is more disruptable since you can fold to BOTH removal ABD blockers
pastel blaze
But its probably the move, eh.
I usually advise people i play with to drop tha...
Eh? I usually say its better to counterspell my setup pieces like Sunbird's Invocation or something
Like stopping me from playing the game at all is just rude, stopping me from playing an insane piece like Sunbird's is perfectly reasonable
They would also have to be capable and willing to do so on t3 which is fairly rare itself
winged vault
I highly disagree with that mindset, but to each their own.
pastel blaze
Plus you not having another veggie? Not really happening often
pastel blaze
I highly disagree with that mindset, but to each their own.
The mindset is "let everyone do something with their game" as non-games just suck
A counterspell on the Sunbird's Invocation sets me back just as much anyway
Probably more unless I just get unlucky and stalled out for a few turns
I generally believe that doing the most optimal thing to screw someone over in commander is just silly, slowing them down is fair, taking them out of the game before they do anything just feels awful
winged vault
Yeah, and you're describing how attacking a Lynch pin ramp spell like a veggie is something you can play through, so I dont really understand why youre also saying its taking someone out of the tame before the have a chance to do anything.
Especially in a deckbuilding situation like this, where an attempt is being made to do something both consistent and accelerated. I think any point of interaction is fair game for a deck trying to make 7+ mana on turn 4 every game in a deck full of gigantic bombs.
pastel blaze
Yeah, and you're describing how attacking a Lynch pin ramp spell like a veggie i...
What I mean is that it frankly shouldn't be your target anyway, hitting one of the bigger bombs later slows someone down still while not slapping them in the face with a possible "you can't play the game"
The deck can often play through minor things like the mander or sometimes the veggies getting countered but you mentioned players having both, at which point that hits my first point
Im stating that the deck isn't necessarily folding immediately to the interaction, and that I rarely agree with doing it just because its the most optimal thing anyway
winged vault
What I mean is that it frankly shouldn't be your target anyway, hitting one of t...
I guess my side is that this is the kind of deck that probably performs very well when it gets its early turns off, so id expect players to start targeting me early. Perhaps I might be protected by social stigma, but maybe I shouldn't be.
I kind of accept getting fucked with heavy when im doing degenerate stuff lmao
pastel blaze
This is why I tell players to swing at me
The deck should be punished for being greedy
But it doesn't necessarily need to be surgically picked apart at the seams
winged vault
Exactly, im just open to taking that a step further
Also
I am probably biased because ive built a version that wins over the top
This might apply mostly to my particular ashling build
steel gust
Shooting a 2cmc dork is rare.
pastel blaze
Shooting a 2cmc dork is rare.
And its frankly not a problem for the deck, one turn of slow down isn't back breaking
winged vault
If the only play a player will ever make in the first 3-4 turns is to ramp, im 10000X more likely to counter their stuff too
pastel blaze
Drannith magistrate I have seen 3 times though, all of which I just laughed at, my opponents were begging me to remove it while I just played normal veggies stuff
winged vault
This deck surely slaps into most stax and hatebears
Were so big
Okay chaos, im just curious at this point. How would you personally take it if I hit your commander with an unable to scream, and then negated your veggie. Would you personally take that as rude, or is this more guidance for how you treat others?
pastel blaze
I would take it as rude, yes, probably feel a good bit targeted
I don't usually get up in arms about stuff like that though
winged vault
So as an olive branch, I think you are literally being targeted, so it makes sense to feel that way.
But also, I've had games naturally play out where I just had no other plays to speak of, and no one else was doing much and it feels weird to just sit around and not interact to me.
IRL im a bit of a room reader, so I would try to be considerate towards you if I knew, or had reason to think that, you feel this way, so im speaking more generally
pastel blaze
I prefer to just be open about how strong my hand is though, if its a crazy hand I would just tell you fair enough
If its a mediocre hand and you still refused to back down on doing both I would definitely be quite peeved
winged vault
So cause I know youre wanting a game with a bit of an on ramp, im happy to just match that energy
Oh yeah thats valid too
I get debated out of interaction a lot
pastel blaze
Im usually the person at the table trying to help the players having trouble while doing what I can to slow down those who are ahead
winged vault
If im like "hmmmm", and youre like "bro, im sitting on dogshit", then for sure im like, carry on
pastel blaze
If im like "hmmmm", and youre like "bro, im sitting on dogshit", then for sure i...
And usually I just won't care about one or the other
Like, slowing me down is perfectly fair, the deck is strong and usually handles it fine
winged vault
And usually I just won't care about one or the other
Yeah, in my head im imaging I hit your commander, and then hmmm'd on the veggie. No reason to put you down that hard if you just have a few good threats. Would probably go through with it if I thought you were on a bunch of your best stuff for whatever reason
pastel blaze
Yeah, in my head im imaging I hit your commander, and then hmmm'd on the veggie....
And I am always open about how scary my deck and/or hand is, I honestly hate it when people small bean or build so its hard to read the threat to the point that they just win out of nowhere, circles back to me hating players having non-games
steel gust
Yeah, in my head im imaging I hit your commander, and then hmmm'd on the veggie....
“Show me your hand or Susan gets it”
winged vault
And I am always open about how scary my deck and/or hand is, I honestly hate it ...
Another thing in this whole hypothetical is im imagining im playing some kind UW deck with low aggro potential. Something like my pauper blink deck, which struggles REALLY badly in drawn out games vs decks that are extremely threat dense
Small beans are the worst
winged vault
“Show me your hand or Susan gets it”
Make a move and bunny gets it
Small beans do a lot to dissolve the kind of conversational trust I advocate for
mellow mirage
Save that “deny their mana” stuff for b4+ and legacy death and taxes homie
I love doing that more than the next person, but not in casual commander
pastel blaze
Small beans are the worst
Yeah, I don't care if people downplay their threats a little for the sake of not getting hard targeted, but full-blown small bean just eats away at the fun parts I enjoy from the games
The funny part was one guy accused me of being a small bean in a game...
Literally after tell him to swing at me early, and another guy to remove my monstrous vortex. At which point I became kinda hell-bent as I kept drawing lands + ramp and just told them "I am probably out of this game"
He said this
All because
I told the other 2 players they need to remove the guys fucking bo-cit
winged vault
Save that “deny their mana” stuff for b4+ and legacy death and taxes homie
I consider denying mana vs a deck like this similar to graveyard hate vs a grave player.
In a sense this is very similar to the RiP convos
IMO
pastel blaze
Like "He always does this" and stuff about me "always turning attention away from my stuff" would be disproven if he didn't have short term memory loss like holy
mellow mirage
It’s more closely related to the MLD conversation than it is RiP
pastel blaze
Some players just suck to play with
steel gust
Brew idea: Bant veggies with “hefty hatebears”
winged vault
It’s more closely related to the MLD conversation than it is RiP
The parallel is that linear ramp and graveyard strategies are both strategies that can get out of control without proper interaction. Just letting a veggies player play both ramp spells, and then jam a threat every turn forever is like never exiling a graveyard players yard once to me, countering one ramp spell is like targeted yard removal, and countering all ramp spells is RiP in my analogy
steel gust
Archon of Valor’s Reach, Jin-Gitaxias, Chancellor of the Annex, etc
mellow mirage
Brew idea: Bant veggies with “hefty hatebears”
I kinda did that
steel gust
Goal is big creature disabling fast combo potential
steel gust
I kinda did that
List to plagiarize?
mellow mirage
steel gust
Thank you sir
steel gust
Much tastier.
winged vault
Yummy
steel gust
To Ward of Bones, or not to Ward of Bones.
winged vault
[[Ward of bones]]
bright kilnBOT
winged vault
Very rude card lol
mellow mirage
Might I recommend instead [[god pharaoh’s statue]]
bright kilnBOT
Legendary Artifact
Spells your opponents cast cost more to cast.
At the beginning of your end step, each opponent loses 1 life.
A dictator's infuriating smirk, an affront to everything Ravnica stood for.
mellow mirage
t4 set everyone else back two thrns
steel gust
Might I recommend instead [[god pharaoh’s statue]]
Already in
winged vault
If I was in your shoes I think I would have to include [[blazing archon]] for retro style points
bright kilnBOT
steel gust
Debating pumping up t4 options with Finale of Devastation, Wargate, etc for stuff like Narset and Archon of Emeria
steel gust
If I was in your shoes I think I would have to include [[blazing archon]] for re...
Once I’m confident in my selection to survive t4 he’ll be in consideration
pastel blaze
https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/8/blazing-archon
Really wish this guy had vigilance, super important to keep up blockers
winged vault
At some point this week im going to do some serious refining to my ashling, get it feeling personally definitive, and then order it.
winged vault
[[Minds dilation]]
bright kilnBOT
winged vault
True
mild vapor
hey gang, I finally got around to throwing together some veggies
it's not refined at all its just a rough idea so far
getting used to the weird idea of playing high cmc stuff
mild vapor
Would love advice from seasoned veggies enjoyers
pastel blaze
getting used to the weird idea of playing high cmc stuff
You can play a lot more of it as well, pieces like [[abzan beastmaster]] could be cut for [[rhino barreling brute]] and bolt for something that removes more and is more card efficient
pastel blaze
Drakuseth notably
You also have a lot of mana dorks, I would recommend focusing on consistent land ramp and just cutting it to ~16 pieces so you can consistently see one.
These decks perform well into boardwipes when built for the actual veggies effects themselves, dorks leave you open to being shutdown when one happens if you don't find normal ramp
Got a lot of good stuff in here for sure, but you will probably get more out of it by leaning more heavily on the curve-out the deck is known for
mild vapor
You also have a lot of mana dorks, I would recommend focusing on consistent land...
As a nonveggies player l wasnt syre if I should really only be on land ramp because running more lands isnt something im big on.
As for bolt and beastmaster, I was looking for some early game pieces look for opportunities to disrupt/get value before dropping the bigger stuff in hand, but if its normally not necessary its definitely worth looking for replacements
pastel blaze
As a nonveggies player l wasnt syre if I should really only be on land ramp beca...
You only need 38 lands to have plenty
And yeah you can just drop a bomb on t4 every game, if they answer it drop another
The deck does well when hellbent because most creatures you draw can end games on their own, and all the ramp pulls 2 lands from deck thinning it further to see less non-gas pieces
I would recommend Sunbird's Invocation and peeking at sarkhan's unsealing for sure
mild vapor
I think I have 4 dorks? Didn't seem like too much but I'll take a look into getting lands ramp. I was a pretty big fan of canopy since it makes 3g instead of just 2
I feel like even in veggies sometimes early interaction is necessary and im not sure 5+ cmc is scratching that itch for me. Maybe its just my usual low curve playstyle idk
pastel blaze
You only need 38 lands to have plenty
(This number includes my MDFC btw, so you should be close with that to my knowledge)
mild vapor
Im on 36 (37)
pastel blaze
I think I have 4 dorks? Didn't seem like too much but I'll take a look into gett...
Thing is, you are still interacting early so long as the bombs have interaction stapled to their face
mild vapor
Disciple of freyalise will always be peak
pastel blaze
The Koglas are great examples
T4 nuking someone's creature is early enough to slow people down in b3
mild vapor
Yeah so t4 to me is more of a midgame area I guess?
pastel blaze
It seems a lot later than it is, usually if you try stopping players t2 or t3 you are hitting cheap and mediocre value pieces
T4 has felt like a sweet spot for me most of the time, usually nabs something more important but still before players have time to turn on engines
And the rest of the game your pieces should be kicking their ankles by picking off stuff constantly, Drakuseth for instance keeps anything with 4 or less toughness from sticking to the board for more than a turn rotation while working you towards ending the game
mild vapor
Could just be a local meta thing, but normally theres something pretty notable out by the end of t2 or coming out t3
pastel blaze
Much of the time you probably don't need to answer it immediately anyway, one turn later is plenty soon enough
mild vapor
I suppose. When im not playing turbo I really try to kick out peoples engines as soon as possible
pastel blaze
Keep in mind these pieces will be destroying a lot more than a bolt can, and repeatedly. If they don't find an answer to something like drakuseth it can be back breaking
Your answer comes later, but it hits a lot harder and does a hell of a lot more
I would recommend looking at my pinned list of "radha 2" and the budget veggies, both have some good pieces for gruul that will help fill your removal wants
mild vapor
I already miss my low curve, this looks abysmal
pastel blaze
I try to keep a large portion of my stuff as some kinda removal, preferably engines, helps the deck bring the others at the table down to my level better
pastel blaze
I already miss my low curve, this looks abysmal
It shouldn't feel bad to play, however. It looks disgusting, even mine still throws me, but its incredibly smooth
mild vapor
Its just that it feels so suboptimal it kinda hurts. Maybe we'll bring back veggies in another deck so I can play more low cmc stuff
Instead of big stuff its a lot of little stuff
pastel blaze
The only suboptimal part about it is the slow to get online part, but these decks are unrelenting and the incredibly high card quality can crush tables
mild vapor
The humble [[nature's claim]]
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pastel blaze
And tbh, 3 turns of setup is usually not what I would consider slow to start playing stuff that would normally be a game ender in any other deck... and then do that on every turn following
steel gust
Its just that it feels so suboptimal it kinda hurts. Maybe we'll bring back vegg...
Veggies messes with your head. Mana curve fucks with conventional magic wisdom, but ratios and curving out make the deck hit harder. “Learn the rules so you can break them.”
“Cheaty” strats can be a turn faster.
Reanimator, polymorph, burst of treasure or rituals.
But that isn’t every turn.
Veggies one turn slower, but every turn is huge.
Also the high interaction count.
Turn two ramp, turn three veggie, turn four seven mana. Koglas, Koma, Grand Cenobite. Brutal stuff.
winged vault
How do we think about [[tablet of discovery]] in ashling?
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Artifact
When this artifact enters, mill a card. You may play that card this turn. (To mill a card, put the top card of your library into your graveyard.)
: Add .
: Add . Spend this mana only to cast instant and sorcery spells.
Leaving no stone unturned is just the beginning.
pallid hare
How do we think about [[tablet of discovery]] in ashling?
I like it in general
It can be awkward if your land drops are sus, but that's just generally true
pallid hare
Is there a non-partner veggues commander that gets white?
pastel blaze
Is there a non-partner veggues commander that gets white?
Multiple yes
^ katilda is the best you will get, but stenn and lotho are mildly consistent options
winged vault
I'm going to build lotho I think, I guess I could build fake veggies
pastel blaze
Check the pins/what I replied too here for the list of veggies manders, as well as our lists
pastel blaze
I'm going to build lotho I think, I guess I could build fake veggies
Do note he is completely unusable if nobody casts their second spell on t2-3
Which its not exactly likely
winged vault
Do note he is completely unusable if nobody casts their second spell on t2-3
It would be fake veggies. Probably I would figure something cute to do in the midgame, while also ramping a bit, and then play a lot of bombs. Fake veggies
like uh, conditional veggies
If someone turns me on, I get to veggie. Otherwise, I do something else
pastel blaze
If someone turns me on, I get to veggie. Otherwise, I do something else
Very uh
Very interesting word choice
winged vault
Very uh
Very interesting word choice
Ill call the deck aqualung or something similar in honor of this transgression
Im thinking playing stuff like the depletion lands and blood pet could be a good fit for the type of lotho im thinking about
pastel blaze
"I sure hope lotho can perform tonight" every time you play him as well
pallid hare
Multiple yes
thinking ramping super hard into [[Restoration Seminar]] might be a fun way to go
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pastel blaze
thinking ramping super hard into [[Restoration Seminar]] might be a fun way to g...
All these paradigm spells go hard in veggies since they come out so early
pallid hare
play a couple of fun [[Commune with the Gods]] effects
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pastel blaze
Notably [[improv capstone]] is insane in my veggies deck, card is just amazing
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pastel blaze
play a couple of fun [[Commune with the Gods]] effects
Yeah malevolent rumble comes to mind as well
mellow mirage
Notably [[improv capstone]] is insane in my veggies deck, card is just amazing
Free is good in a deck that reliably has 4+ mana stuff haha
mellow mirage
By the way, @pastel blaze I’ve gotten some of Jund veggies done and i really like how versatile you can be with this build
steel gust
Black veggies. Someday, please Wizards.
mellow mirage
Give it two years
At the rate they did the most recent ones we’ll probably actually see one in the next two years
steel gust
Hopefully no 5c veggies.
mellow mirage
I’d be fine with that - good luck with your fixing
It’d also allow for a lot of self expression in how you wanna do it - straight up goodstuff, cast for free, etc etc
It’d effectively be a golos goodstuff deck with extra steps
steel gust
I’d be fine with that - good luck with your fixing
Two of each basic, duals with heavy green pip presence.
Easy WUBRG available turn four
Second pip of every color is harder.
winged vault
Two of each basic, duals with heavy green pip presence.
Next level green
(It just means mono green splashing all four other colors)
steel gust
That’s budget 5c before Wizards got better at reprinting lands for fixing.
Fetchable typed duals and fetches could and enable double of all pips by turn four or five.
But that removes veggies’ budget potential.
pastel blaze
By the way, <@689873175583916086> I’ve gotten some of Jund veggies done and i re...
Yeah golgari veggies has been kinda cracked as well, the selection you get from black is just incredibly strong
pastel blaze
Black veggies. Someday, please Wizards.
Can kinda recommend [[belbe observer]] as its been treating me quite well
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Legendary Creature — Phyrexian Zombie Elf
At the beginning of each postcombat main phase, the active player adds 
for each of your opponents who lost life this turn. (Damage causes loss of life.)
"Those who wish to become evincar must first cast off the shackles of compassion."
2/2
pastel blaze
Its the only option we have so far for an actually consistent veggies mander
steel gust
Can kinda recommend [[belbe observer]] as its been treating me quite well
Dabbled in some playtesting. I see why.
pastel blaze
Dabbled in some playtesting. I see why.
With my list or did you make one for yourself?
steel gust
With my list or did you make one for yourself?
Yours from older links.
pastel blaze
Ah yeah nice
Played like 10 games with it so far and haven't had it stall out unable to get the swing in yet luckily
Had the mander removed once, but that doesn't really count imo as an issue for the deck
steel gust
Time to finalize my veggies.
Love brewing but not all brews get sleeved and shuffled.
pallid hare
[[Worn Powerstone]] and [[Mana Sculpt]] for Ashling, Y/N?
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Artifact
This artifact enters tapped.
: Add .
Even a fragment of a powerstone contains within it not just energy, but space—vast dimensions trapped in fragile crystal.
Instant
Counter target spell. If you control a Wizard, add an amount of equal to the amount of mana spent to cast that spell at the beginning of your next main phase.
The harder a foe strikes, the stronger a Dragonsguard's defenses become.
steel gust
[[Worn Powerstone]] and [[Mana Sculpt]] for Ashling, Y/N?
No to Mana Sculpt - one-off burst mana rather than constant.
Worn Powerstone can work.
But it can get rough because you can’t flip Ashling the same turn.
steel gust
So t3 Worn Powerstone means waiting for flipping Ashling next turn.
pallid hare
🤔
I mean I was not thinking of using Mana Sculpt because it's a good mana source, but because the potential blowout when someone wants to boardwide you
steel gust
That’s fair.
pallid hare
and yeah, I think even if you open Powerstone it's not worth delaying Ashling by one... Unless you need extra mana to not get dunked by a T2-3 Marauder effect?
Meh, very niche usecase
steel gust
If I play 3mv ramp, its Descent into Avernus.
pallid hare
Honestly, peak magic, right up there with [[Dance with Calamity]]
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mellow mirage
[[Worn Powerstone]] and [[Mana Sculpt]] for Ashling, Y/N?
Mana sculpt sure, tbh worn powerstone is a big no because it doesn’t actually work with ashling. Throws your whole curve off
mellow mirage
No to Mana Sculpt - one-off burst mana rather than constant.
Mana sculpt is a helpful counterspell
slate vessel
MOST counterspells are good counterspells
steel gust
Mana sculpt is a helpful counterspell
📝 📝 📝
graceful talon
Thought people would be interested https://youtu.be/3GYucRpULyA?si=chdjGsFkJWs6FaOx
When I've said you're doing s new archetype yeah
You need to get in on the branding because 2-4-7 is not a good name
winged vault
I dont think snail gave it a name either when he made his video a couple years ago about it. Free real estate
pallid hare
Thinking about [[Spinerock Tyrant]] for Ashling, but not sure there's enough big haymakers with only a single target?
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winged vault
I think my list would not make this shine, but I could imagine lists that do
steel gust
You need to get in on the branding because 2-4-7 is not a good name
Other locals call it 2-4-7 too
mellow mirage
Thought people would be interested https://youtu.be/3GYucRpULyA?si=chdjGsFkJWs6F...
Ooh thank you, I will watch this
mellow mirage
Other locals call it 2-4-7 too
Yeah that sucks, 2-4-7 is a terrible name
Veggies is where it's at
mellow mirage
Okay so Jund Veggies
I have tested the deck a good few times now and it slaps! I casted a [[Breach the Multiverse]], hit Sepulchral Primordial, E-wit and another guy, brought back the breach, then casted breach bringing back [[Kefka dancing mad]] and a Clever Impersonator to copy sepulchral primordial again
mellow mirage
Making this a graveyard focused version made this incredibly powerful
Also [[ozai phoenix king]] is so fucking good
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mellow mirage
I have the fancy foil one and it needed a home, which made this the perfect place for it
pastel blaze
I have the fancy foil one and it needed a home, which made this the perfect plac...
My GF and I picked up this version in foil, it looks too good
pastel blaze
Also I assume you have grave reaver in your jund veggies?
Because that one has been an especially strong piece in the golgari version
pastel blaze
I have tested the deck a good few times now and it slaps! I casted a [[Breach th...
Because this is the kinda stuff the golgari version has been doing
Chaining reanimate pieces by accident
mellow mirage
Also I assume you have grave reaver in your jund veggies?
Yep, I still need to procure a copy for rhe deci but it’s in the list
pastel blaze
Yeah kinda assumed you did since its one of the more notorious pieces
pallid hare
Picked up Stonespeaker Crystal, Sisay's Ring, Vessel of the Firemind, and Resonating Lute in preparation for Ashling. Also ordered [[Thran Dyanamo|CMM|658]] 👀
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Artifact
: Add .
"The 'pinnacle' of advancement is a concept that exists only in the narrow minds of those with no ambition." —Yawgmoth
pallid hare
She's been great in digital. Very solid br2-3 gameplay, but hoping to move that to physical 🙂
steel goblet
How do we feel about this chat https://moxfield.com/decks/Bo4ZFT3sWU2FK8LO46U7eQ
Have I gimmicked as hard as I can gimmick
pastel blaze
How do we feel about this chat https://moxfield.com/decks/Bo4ZFT3sWU2FK8LO46U7eQ
Why... do you have so many 1 and 2 drop ramp pieces exactly?
pastel blaze
Susan's main benefit is removing the need for either
If you play a high enough count of 4 drop ramp you curve out significantly better, and the 4 drop ramp is significantly more resilient
steel goblet
So just try to get more 4 drop ramp?
Is the one drop bad tho? I feel like it’s useful just for a bit of extra mana turn one
mellow mirage
Run zero one or two drop ramp
It’s to make each soell slot more impactful
I mean obviously it’s your deck do what you want but that’s my advice too
mellow mirage
Susan removes the need for ramp lower than 4 mana
pallid hare
If only because it's also fast mana
steel goblet
I feel like two drop isn’t needed much because I play susan instead
steel goblet
Susan t2 and then 4 drop ramp t3
steel goblet
So get rid of every 1 drop and 2 drop ramp? Other than like sol ring
mellow mirage
Even sol ring tbh
steel goblet
Nah no way, it’s just too good
mellow mirage
I usually go with 15 veggies
mellow mirage
Nah no way, it’s just too good
Trust me you’re going to want that slot for a big impactful spell
But also not running sol ring is based
pallid hare
I usually go with 15 veggies
Do we have a list somewhere for non-green?
steel goblet
Would I want growth spiral still? It’s card draw but also is a 2 drop ramp
pastel blaze
Would I want growth spiral still? It’s card draw but also is a 2 drop ramp
You want 4 drop ramp that gets 2 lands
mellow mirage
Do we have a list somewhere for non-green?
I have a moxfield package with all of them
pastel blaze
Curve into it
mellow mirage
So does Kaos
pallid hare
I have a moxfield package with all of them
O right lol
steel goblet
Alr I put a lot more in
Keeping sol ring tho because I feel like it’s just too good
Even if it doesn’t work perfectly on my curve
I wonder if 14 basic lands is enough for all this ramp 😭
Probably
Some of them search for forests and not just basics
pallid hare
I'm wondering if the Opus cards are worth running... I think [[Molten Core Maestro]] probably is, not sure about Color Storm Stallion tho.
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Creature — Goblin Bard
Menace
Opus — Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature. If five or more mana was spent to cast that spell, add an amount of equal to this creature's power.
"My media? Fury and flame."
2/2
steel goblet
I think the deck is good enough to print out now, I’ll playtest it tomorrow with my friends
pallid hare
It has the upside of being an elemental which is very nice for Ashling
mellow mirage
I was thinking abt that too, maestro is really good
But do we really need refunds on our spells like that?
There is most definitely a range of power levels involved with these decks and I think Maestro belongs to the more powerful ones
pallid hare
It kinda puts a thing on board that they have to deal with
Which helps keep Ashling safe too
(Unless they wipe, but like)
mellow mirage
I think the deck is good enough to print out now, I’ll playtest it tomorrow with...
Lemme know how it goes!
mellow mirage
(Unless they wipe, but like)
Yeah this deck folds hard to board wipes
winged vault
Trust me you’re going to want that slot for a big impactful spell
Okay, to be fair, sol ring functions as a veggie as well, so it counts in those slots. Unless youre like ashling and care about the 4 cmc.
Also sol ring gives you t1 ring, t2 veggie, t3 six drop if you have a decent 6 drop count
But yeah, cutting sol ring IS based. I wouldnt play it in veggies either (tbh I dont play it below b4)
pallid hare
Depends on the wipe tbf
mellow mirage
Okay, to be fair, sol ring functions as a veggie as well, so it counts in those ...
Another thing to consider though - a lot of cards care about the mana value of what you’re casting too. Plus I’d much rather get two lands over two colorless mana when I’m cascading
It’s a veggie, but there’s more utility to the veggies than just their effect
And another thing - if you’re in green, sol ring is actively worse than two basics
pallid hare
Ashling can get really hosed by Bane of Progress etc due to the way ramp works in izzet
mellow mirage
Especially if you’re like me and you wipe artifacts and enchantments pretty often
mellow mirage
Ashling can get really hosed by Bane of Progress etc due to the way ramp works i...
That is a downside youhave to accept in nongreen unfortunately
pallid hare
Admittedly green ramp gets got by like, Aven Mindcensor
So there's always something foolish afoot
Admittedly
winged vault
Another thing to consider though - a lot of cards care about the mana value of w...
Being able to start a full turn early is such a high upside, im pretty sure it would earn its place in a tuned list, but thats also kind of not the point to me
pallid hare
[[Harmonic Prodigy]] and other trigger doublers do actually mean that Ashling can work with "creature ramp"
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pallid hare
Since she's a wizard on the backside, shebjust adda another 2 mana
pallid hare
Twinflame Travelers, the elemental doublers also work nicely
winged vault
Yeah theyre super cool too
fossil gazelle
No bugenhagen in this list smh
winged vault
commas do not exist
A programmers story:
fossil gazelle
Too traumatized by semicolons to recognize commas
steel goblet
https://moxfield.com/decks/Bo4ZFT3sWU2FK8LO46U7eQ
I’ve been gold fishing this for a bit and it seems like itll be really fun
Had to make it in person first because goldfishing this online is actually so difficult
slate vessel
Would [[Yarok Scorch]] be considered Jund Veggies?
bright kilnBOT
slate vessel
[[Clan Scorch]]
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slate vessel
[[Yurlok]]
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Legendary Creature — Lizard Shaman
Vigilance
A player losing unspent mana causes that player to lose that much life.
, : Each player adds 
.
The gifts of Jund never come without a price.
4/4
slate vessel
Maybe I'm misunderstanding
Is it more than just mana generation in the commander zone
pastel blaze
Is it more than just mana generation in the commander zone
2 drop in the command zone, yes
A 2 drop specifically means you can curve into "veggies"... veggies being explosive vegetation in this case
The mana generation can come in any form, but the result has to be the same, curving you from 2 > 4 to cast veggies a turn early
slate vessel
So what would Veggies look like in say Jund or Abzan
pastel blaze
So what would Veggies look like in say Jund or Abzan
Unfortunately we have no commanders for this
We have a clunky golgari option, and that's about as close as we can get
bright kilnBOT
Legendary Creature — Vedalken Scout
: Add 
. Spend this mana only to cast spells with mana value 5 or greater or spells with in their mana costs.
, : Draw a card, then discard a card.
"The streets of Ravnica were stifling. Eldraine is an endless adventure paved in gold."
1/3
pallid hare
Oh hey can we consider [[The Regalia]] a veggies option?
bright kilnBOT
pallid hare
I know it's technically just one land but it's repeated so it kinda sorta works?
winged vault
I think for the normal construction its okay if you lean on 6 drops, otherwise too inconsistent. I am considering it in my soft veggies lotho im tinkering with, but thats slightly difgerent
pallid hare
I think for the normal construction its okay if you lean on 6 drops, otherwise t...
I do tend to lean on 6-7-8 drops more than just 7+ tbf
winged vault
I do tend to lean on 6-7-8 drops more than just 7+ tbf
I like them a lot
pastel blaze
Oh hey can we consider [[The Regalia]] a veggies option?
Depends on commander, if you have to tap mander for mana to get it out you can't swing the car
Otherwise its alright
pallid hare
yeah, Ashling usually doesn't wanna swing an she doesn't need to tap so it seems like a good include
This is what I've got so far. (sideboard cards is stuff I'm thinking about, everything else has been ordered or is already in my collection - the considering section is full of cards from the Prismari precon that might go in if I disassemble it. The overlap is considerable 🤔 )
pastel blaze
yeah, Ashling usually doesn't wanna swing an she doesn't need to tap so it seems...
Yeah to my knowledge she and lotho are about the only ones who could ever use it
If you can include it, phenomenal card, but most people can't
winged vault
Lotho and ashling are all i came up with too. It has some pretty cool properties in lotho.
pallid hare
https://moxfield.com/decks/K-NfNx9Ai0eH1J6yyOgaoQ
Anyone have good ideas for draw spells?
mellow mirage
Yeah to my knowledge she and lotho are about the only ones who could ever use it
Belbe could, any time after the turn she swings
Because other stuff can swing for her
pastel blaze
Belbe could, any time after the turn she swings
The point is to use it as a veggie, which she can't
mellow mirage
Ah
steel gust
Would I want growth spiral still? It’s card draw but also is a 2 drop ramp
Play Aesi instead
mellow mirage
Aesi is pretty rad
winged vault
idk, I give them a C
HVAC?