Artifact Creature — Construct
This creature enters with two +1/+1 counters on it.
, Discard a card: Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.
Remove two +1/+1 counters from this creature: Draw a card.
0/0
#Pell's Bracket 3 League Rental Library
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
the thing this allows you to do is with marvin if you have any way to make +1/+1 counters, but not yet infinite, this does convert those into draw
pallid tide
Pretty cool
pallid tide
Sacrificing Marvin for cards can also be good, as he is quite recastable.
Survey Mechan seems to be the only one though
golden bolt
[[Zenith Chronicler]] ?
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
And you're not really getting lands out quick.
golden bolt
unfortunately most spells in this format are monocolor
pallid tide
Yeah, could be good 🙂
golden bolt
but commanders frequently are not
golden bolt
it is extremely funny that one of the cEDH lists i looked at (because references for marvin are atrocious) had Rise of the Eldrazi in it
and I assume that is for this reason and not the need for the extra turn
since this deck can win on opp's turn like 5 ways
im probably not putting a 12 mana sorcery in this deck
god, is this an Endstone moment
[[The Endstone]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
this might be an endstone moment actually
golden bolt
i think it might be correct here
storm bolt
Will gladly lose 20 life
golden bolt
it's really easy to get 7 mana
and this is just a better version of song of creation in this deck
pallid tide
Yeah, seems strong
golden bolt
for only 20 life????
one of the benefits of ugin eye of storms is that outside of being an absolutely devastating way to control the board, he does draw you 1 card every turn
you probably never want to 0 him in this deck but he does draw you a card
and then of course if you ult him you win the game
sorry just looking at draw engines as much as i can
pallid tide
Yeah, Ugin is pretty sick.
golden bolt
coveted jewel is probably fine but my concern is the inability to actually protect it, so if i cast it i should assume i am handing someone a free ancestral recall
storm bolt
Ugin is a must in colorless decks i think
golden bolt
the problem is a lot of things are a must in marvin
storm bolt
Coveted jewel is a good way to let other players draw
golden bolt
i was just adding combo pieces and i got up to 46 cards
pallid tide
Coveted Jewel does indeed have a pretty severe drawback.
golden bolt
would that i was making 1/1s
if literally any of marvin's combo pieces were making servos or thopters, i'd throw skullclamp in here and forget it
i do see now why a couple of the cEDH lists were running actual literal Mask of Memory though
the options simply are not very good
man, it sucks that im even considering trading post
in 2026
okay im moving everything to considering and doing the process again with the known information in mind
pallid tide
the process?
golden bolt
yeah i got a whole mental process thing goin on for how i'm building decks now
which is why i voluntarily did this instead of saying "that sounds insane"
pallid tide
What makes it work well for you?
golden bolt
for me sometimes when deckbuilding i get too bogged down in any single category that isn't "things that win the game" occasionally
and this helps with that by making sure that cards that progress my gamestate come before literally any other option
and then immediately after "how do i make those win the game" and "what weakness do i need to overcome to make part B help part A"
pallid tide
Sounds well focused.
golden bolt
I should just make like a canva flowchart or something so that I have it there to be clear
One of the lists had Tome of Legends in this
which seems really bad
I do not think relying on my commander attacking to draw cards is a good plan
storm bolt
My answer to “how do i win the game” lately is “…my 7 drop is a 6/6 flier”
It’s quite nice
Idk, i feel like without combos marvin is just so damn fiddly
golden bolt
I wanna make sure these are at least indicative of what the deck can accomplish in this bracket, so while I might bump down on speed, I do want this to be a space where people can learn Marvin combos if they like that idea.
storm bolt
I’m also not a Johnny so I don’t see the vision
I will trust in your abilities on that
golden bolt
pell not a big combo player either
this is the challenge in this, there's so many of these that it's like "I've never actually played this deck before"
i know KCI combos by heart
because i played modern
these soul cauldron combos though are something else entirely
storm bolt
I’m sure mxkale will be of some help
golden bolt
@fresh parcel save me how do i marvin
fresh parcel
Hallo, one sec
golden bolt
sorry i moved everything to considering
fresh parcel
OK, so you have a good start with the gleaners/pili-pala
One thing is Marvin is basically [[experiment kraj]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Ooze Mutant
Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with a +1/+1 counter on it.
: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
"Of course it will grow beyond control—it was designed to choose its own evolution." —Momir Vig
4/6
fresh parcel
Yep
fresh parcel
You want cauldron
golden bolt
ones where you use cauldron
fresh parcel
I see it in your considering
golden bolt
and ones where you use the fuckin... myr
fresh parcel
But you just really do
golden bolt
dont remember the name
fresh parcel
The imprint one
golden bolt
yeah
fresh parcel
The problem is that won't work
It gives Marvin the ability to imprint
But marvin has to exile the cards
golden bolt
correct
i assume those lines are in the deck so you can still combo under drannith
but is it reasonable to cut the things that the myr provides?
and make the deck more lean and add more ways to draw cards or payoff combos?
MYR WELDER
THAT'S THE NAME
fresh parcel
The ballista/triskelion combos are just good tbh
golden bolt
wait is there a welder/ballista combo
golden bolt
gleaner + trilobite is infinite counters
as well as i believe gleaner + the big eldrazi
fresh parcel
Yeah, so if you have ballista or triskelion you can kill people with marvin's counters
Works if it's on the battlefield or under the cauldron
golden bolt
i think im actually just gonna cut the welder lines, they seem worse than cauldron
and more likely to get me screwed over
fresh parcel
If you're on cauldron you want looting effects
golden bolt
yeah im gonna run mask of memory and millikin
fresh parcel
And the mill manas
fresh parcel
There's the new god from fic
golden bolt
ultima?
fresh parcel
[[the warring triad]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Artifact Creature — God
Flying, trample, haste
As long as there are fewer than eight cards in your graveyard, The Warring Triad isn't a creature.
, Mill a card: Target player adds one mana of any color.
5/5
golden bolt
oh
WAIT THIS CARD'S GREAT WHY DID I NOT SEE THIS
oh wait, all those decks i looked at were from before FF
fresh parcel
Because it's from the FF6 deck
golden bolt
oh, that would also explain it
i believe the only combo pieces that are myr welder-exclusive are the ones that are like, grim monolith or thran dynamo stuff right
the noncreatures that are just too expensive otherwise?
sorry im trying to trim so i can get into a space where im not looking at cards im not putting in
oh wait, none of those are exclusive because karn just makes those artifacts into dudes for marvin
fresh parcel
Yep
golden bolt
alright so that's just 1 extra slot, i'll still take it though
free slot is a free slot
fresh parcel
Toymaker is tbh, very good here for some combos
If you're using cauldron
[[toymaker]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact Creature — Spellshaper
, , Discard a card: Target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its mana value until end of turn. (It retains its abilities.)
1/1
fresh parcel
I know it's in considering
golden bolt
yeah toymaker's just an extra copy of karn
fresh parcel
But it lets you ditch something in your gy
golden bolt
considering is "everything that was just in the deck + the things that were in the lists i looked at"
golden bolt
animate staff of domination and use karn to animate sol ring and that's infinite mana
unless i cannot do mathematics which is real and possible
i think i forgot a combo piece somewhere one sec i need to check the marvin archives
not counting the discounters yet
fresh parcel
[[paladium myr]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact Creature — Myr
: Add 
.
The myr are like the Glimmervoid: blank canvases on which to build grand creations.
2/2
fresh parcel
[[kyren toy]] is one I haven't figured out breaking yet
silk quailBOT
Artifact
, : Put a charge counter on this artifact.
, Remove X charge counters from this artifact: Add an amount of equal to X plus one.
fresh parcel
Mainly because it's funny, not good
golden bolt
you'd have to find a loop that creates 3 mana, which i think is just any sol creature + pili pala?
oh but then
hmm
but then there's no point bc you're just making infinite mana anyway
wait, animate kyren toy, tap for 1 mana to put a charge counter, animated staff of domination untaps for 1, you go even on that loop
but then you're literally just chugging your mana away for 1 extra mana at the end?
fresh parcel
You'd basically just need to build around charge counters to make sure that Marvin has a stockpile
golden bolt
yeah
golden bolt
Alright, I think Marvin's at a better spot in terms of draw.
I still might go down on a sol land or something for another card like World Map or something that grabs a sol land instead?
fresh parcel
I could see that
golden bolt
[[World Map]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact
, , Sacrifice this artifact: Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
, , Sacrifice this artifact: Search your library for a land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
And so their quest began.
golden bolt
i do have 1 (one) basic land in the deck
it is currently a wastes, non-snow
i thought "hey, running a snow land literally only hurts me" as my thought process for that
but importantly this is just a 2nd exped map for 1 more mana that grabs sol lands
tomb or city of traitors? I kinda feel bad dropping the GC in a deck im giving to others, but tomb is kinda a bit much in this deck
Relinked btw
golden bolt
@hoary sparrow i have a very interesting addition for you to Anti-Venom;
[[Dawnsire, Sunstar Dreadnought]]
golden bolt
you just put it at 10 and never any higher
and then any time you attack antivenom has the power to kill someone
you cannot run anything that gives him (?) shroud though
fresh parcel
[[pariah]] exists
silk quailBOT
fresh parcel
And [[pariah's shield]] [[parker luck]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Equipment
All damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to equipped creature instead.
Equip
To bear the shield of the pariah is the highest honor a Boros can receive—and the last.
silk quailBOT
fresh parcel
My stuffy doll list is [[risona]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
yeah, monowhite is rough here
there's not a lot of ways to deal large amounts of damage to your stuff in white
and IDEALLY we're hitting antivenom for either 6 or 16.
do need to find some good ways to deal those numbers in these colors, Dawnsire was huge tech
oh, i need to include all my onesided boardwipes
see, if this was boros, it would be much easier
to just deal 6 damage to antivenom and then cast temur battle rage
fresh parcel
Yeah, you also get damage redirects [[pain for all]] [[blazing sunsteel]] etc.
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+0 for each opponent you have.
Whenever equipped creature is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to any target.
Equip 
Wyleth emerged from the crater unscathed with the sun's fury trapped in his hands.
fresh parcel
Oh, for when you get to Yidris. an underappreciated card is [[omnispell adept]]
silk quailBOT
Creature — Human Wizard
, : You may cast an instant or sorcery spell from your hand without paying its mana cost.
She memorized every arcane text in the Ismeri Library by the time she was sixteen. Now she quizzes sphinxes in her spare time.
3/4
fresh parcel
If you're wanting to cast spells with weird mana costs
golden bolt
added to the considering board for that one
we're just gathering data now shit's great
pallid tide
there's not a lot of ways to deal large amounts of damage to your stuff in white
[[Martyrdom]] [[Saving Grace]] [[Triangle of War]] seem like solid options. The problem could be that your opponents will just not attack into you until they have a way to deal with the commander. Which is where I like Martyrdom and Triangle of War. This may also be a deck where I can imagine Endless Horizons + Goblin Charbelcher.
silk quailBOT
Instant
Until end of turn, target creature you control gains "
: The next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature, planeswalker, or player this turn is dealt to this creature instead." Only you may activate this ability.
"Martyrs are cheaper than mercenaries, and a far better investment." —General Varchild
Artifact
, Sacrifice this artifact: Target creature you control fights target creature an opponent controls. (Each deals damage equal to its power to the other.)
The Zhalfirin war triangle represents a trinity of might, faith, and guile.
golden bolt
golden bolt
[[Martyrdom]] [[Saving Grace]] [[Triangle of War]] seem like solid options. The ...
fantatic picks to go in the pile, I'll want some number of these effects, so it's good to know what they are
I made a canva flowchart
I don't know if it'll be useful for anyone else, but this is the process that is in my brain now that I've put onto... image format
pallid tide
It's nice to give some insight into how you build. Everyone has different approaches, might give it a try sometime.
golden bolt
So, how does Anti-Venom win? Anti-Venom is a semi-voltron aggro combo deck wherein Anti-Venom is dealt large amounts of damage (preferably during combat) to make its second ability pump its power into ranges that are mathematically advantageous for winning the game through commander damage; either 6 damage (11 power, commander lethal with doublestrike or two attacks) or 16 damage (21 power, commander lethal). Additionally, using effects that redirect damage to creatures to Anti-Venom, we can create a board of hatebears that make it hard to interact with the basic strategy of the deck while still being aggressive enough that our opponents can't simply "wait out" a boardwipe.
Input: Monowhite is easily able to generate large numbers of tokens and consistent and large amounts of mana. Anti-Venom doesn't provide resources.
Output: We can convert this into a win by using slightly more expensive cards that will lead to things damaging Anti-Venom, and taxes that might even be symmetrical due to the mana advantage we're likely to achieve.
Weakness: Monowhite is, unfortunately, not usually all that great at card draw, and uses mostly parasitic draw engines and tutors to supplement this. This gameplan can fail by simply never being able to find a way to damage Anti-Venom, or not having hatebears to slow opponents down while we spend our time finding them. It can also fail by being unable to get through large amounts of small token chumpblockers.
storm bolt
What did you use to make this? This is really clean
golden bolt
What did you use to make this? This is really clean
Canva 
my work gives me a subscription free even though i am a driver and don't use it
storm bolt
Nice lol
golden bolt
But thanks! I've used it a lot personally, not for work.
storm bolt
My girlfriend's mom has to use it for work and absolutely despises it
I've never heard so much hatred for Canva until I met her and it's kinda funny
golden bolt
I used to make bossing DPS flowcharts for all the maplestory classes in it, so we've got that, and also I used to stream more
so i used this for a lot of my advertising stuff
golden bolt
I've never heard so much hatred for Canva until I met her and it's kinda funny
it is fine
storm bolt
That is such a niche internet sequence of words
"Bossing DPS flowcharts for all the maplestory classes"
Idk I just use powerpoint/google slides and haven't been let down
golden bolt
ahahaha this is just a nice interface, it's fine
and also my brain has a lot of things in it i have trouble expressing except visually
fresh parcel
The problem with Canva is it has been integrating a lot more generative AI recently
I'm not saying you're using that. I'm just saying they keep emphasizing it
golden bolt
yeah it's really unfortunate
again, if i was paying for it i'd have stopped, but i get it for free through work at a job im not staying at in 4 months so
storm bolt
I feel like I'm starting to heavily experience the negative outcomes of Microsoft heavily using AI for its code base
So much weird shit has been happening over the last year with it
golden hawk
oh like one of the latest updates on W11 making it so you can't shut off your computer?
storm bolt
I have not heard of that
golden bolt
or the most recent one making it so the system simply won't boot into windows 🙂
and it has to be manually repaired if you have that error?
golden hawk
yeah one of the more recent windows 11 updates broke the start menu ways of powering off the system, so only manual methods can turn off the computer until its fixed.
golden hawk
or the most recent one making it so the system simply won't boot into windows 🙂
now that I hadn't heard of
golden bolt
Yep.
golden hawk
yeah no wonder I'm staying on windows 10 for now, jeezus
golden bolt
They're pushing as much as they can to get people to downgrade to the last stable version but Microsoft doesn't even really know what version that is at this point, I'd bet.
Back on it, [[Focus Fire]] is the most efficient way other than Dawnsire to deal 6 or 16 damage, I think? But inconsistent.
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
I know I'm off-topic, but in the venom deck, could the monarch be an interesting mechanic? You kind of want players to swing, and you may be pretty good at defending it if you want to.
golden bolt
they have to deal combat damage to take it right
which means under pariah i would just keep it?
golden bolt
maybe, i don't know how many monarch cards i'd be willing to play though
palace jailor's an easy one
similarly i think in terms of initiative there's very few of those I'd be willing to run as well
pallid tide
Well, you wouldn't need it as a theme. Could just be one card
golden bolt
yeah if i ran monarchy it would be literally just palace jailor i think
and initiative would, as umaru said, just be white plume adventurer and seasoned dungeoneer
pallid tide
That'd make sense
fresh parcel
Why would they spell it that way?
I'd have expected gaoler
If they didn't go with jailer
golden bolt
jailer looks weird
that's why
im not even british but i think they had it right on that one
fresh parcel
Also, I've literally never seen that spelling of jailer in 45 years of life before now somehow
It exists but it looks so weird to my brain
golden bolt
probably same way jailer looks weird to me
fresh parcel
Yeah
golden bolt
also when sov gets in here i need to thank for introducing me to [[star compass]] which is just marble diamond 2
silk quailBOT
Artifact
This artifact enters tapped.
: Add one mana of any color that a basic land you control could produce.
It doesn't point north. It points home.
golden bolt
ive never seen this card even a single time
fresh parcel
Pauper edh mana rock tech
pallid tide
Similar to Coldsteel Heart I guess
golden bolt
hmm
one problem with Sov's deck compared to mine is they focus on entirely different aspects of the card
so i can't really use most of this
(most of sov's deck is based around the fact that Anti-Venom reanimates something on ETB)
whereas for me, i want to be running loot effects to put things like Voice of Victory or Grand Abolisher in the grave
so that when it's time to go, i can do it uninterrupted
pallid tide
Maybe there are some great curveouts you can steal.
golden bolt
There are some number of cool cards i saw in here
i think [[Jet Rebel Leader]] is actually probably great in here
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
since most hatebears get drawn by this
oh fuck, this wasnt in sov deck but edhrec actually came through for me for once today
[[Dual Sun Technique]]
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
Seems quite strong indeed.
golden bolt
also that art goes hard
similarly, for a haste enabler that isn't swiftfoot boots or lavaspur, [[haunted cloak]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature has vigilance, trample, and haste.
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
Bear the weight of so many spirits and you'll surrender civility and restraint to savagery and instinct.
golden bolt
gives me the keyword i care about
it's a bit expensive but might still end up in since i can afford to spend more mana for quality in this
if there were a cheaper equipment, perhaps a spear that is shadowy, that gave trample, i would appreciate it
pallid tide
Maybe a Brotherhood Regalia/Key to the City is just worth it.
golden bolt
well, i do want to be blocked, but i don't wanna be deathtouched 
oh wait, deathtouch wouldn't work
this card says prevent
pallid tide
Oh [[Hot Soup]] sadly has the low mv high equip cost 🙁
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature can't be blocked.
Whenever equipped creature is dealt damage, destroy it.
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
"Comin' through!" Designed by James Ernest
golden bolt
thanks have a good sleep
[[robe of stars]] seems solid as a way to keep Anti-Venom in play.
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +0/+3.
Astral Projection — 
: Equipped creature phases out. (Treat it and anything attached to it as though they don't exist until its controller's next turn.)
Equip
golden bolt
Alright, I have the pre-test version.
I need to cut 2 cards though.
@supple jacinth hit me with 2 cuts
(sorry you got chosen)
supple jacinth
Dont be sorry, I needed something to do. Hit a bummy mood and this is fixing it
supple jacinth
Golden Guardian, Hot Soup
golden bolt
any reason for hot soup
supple jacinth
We have a couple rogues passage type lands now
golden bolt
the reason this one is in is that it is searchable and the downside is nonexistent
supple jacinth
Just a reduction in slots for when your commander is likely oneshotting folks
supple jacinth
Golden Guardian is a card Im personally a huge fan of, but its so mana intensive
supple jacinth
And it seems like your deck likes holding up mana to be cheeky
golden bolt
but it is 6 mana to put 4 +1/+1 counters
on my commander
which is VERY expensive
i can get that for 1
golden bolt
hell if someone doesn't know how to read i might get it for free
i like this, it also makes my urza's saga choices much easier
because now it's just always lavaspur or shadowspear
supple jacinth
Sometimes people will have no choice but to feed Antivenom
Forgive the spelling, cats laying on my dominant hand lmao
golden bolt
yeah sometimes they'll have to block it
no totally fine i knew what you meant
actually, are there situations where you grab ozo early
i think the answer is probably no
i've always been very big on the idea that the ozolith is something you play once the board presence is established
this might be the one deck where that's wrong
but i think urza's saga still usually grabs trample enabler or haste enabler
i do also like keeping the maindeck very d&t adjacent
so that it can function without antivenom in case there's a drannith or whatever
or if antivenom gets countered and i can't recast right away
i might need to bump this up later but this feels really nice for test hands and i dont even have opponents to test damage against
golden bolt
i get to have a lot of fun with monoblue
I haven't played against a Jalira since 2017
golden bolt
Okay this was actually really fun.
I don't really do Polymorph decks but you get to sacrifice Gran-Gran to summon Blightsteel Colossus in this one which I think is pretty funny.
I have played against Polymorph decks very recently but they were red and were not flipping into blightsteel
And to that same effect, can I say, there's literally no more perfect 1 drop for Jalira than [[Gran-Gran]], holy shit.
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Peasant Ally
Whenever Gran-Gran becomes tapped, draw a card, then discard a card.
Noncreature spells you cast cost less to cast as long as there are three or more Lesson cards in your graveyard.
"It's been so long since I've had hope, but you brought it back to life."
1/2
golden bolt
1 mana, legendary so Jalira won't flip into her, filters cards for you so you can get beaters out of your hand.
I might even consider putting Springleaf Drum into this deck just to take advantage of how easy it is to put creatures into play
golden bolt
I'm skipping Maha for right now as this late into the night I think I might find a way to mess up MBC
But we're gonna work on Zada. Again, I haven't played against Zada in... probably 5 or more years?
this might unironically be the easiest deck to make strong, though, i have an encyclopedic memory of cards that say draw a card on them
golden bolt
And here's that. Like all Zada, the single second you even think about casting Electrickery it falls over dead
and like all Zada, if you don't, they kill you
I was consistently goldfishing t5s t6s, I know it can probably be faster than that, but with how easy it is to interact with Zada, it'll be fine.
concern is there on speed, but it was always gonna be there with Zada
if it's a problem i'll figure out something else for the slot
golden bolt
This is actually really hard, this is not normally my choice of a MBC commander in this format
i would normally be on [[Toshiro Umezawa]] as my deck of choice and that's very different than this
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
Okay, I don't know if this is good but I think it's probably worth giving a go? @golden hawk I hate to ping to ask but could I get a second set of eyes on this
I think this should probably have Breach the Multiverse or Rise of the Dark Realms in it, but I'm not entirely sure which
golden hawk
Okay, I don't know if this is good but I think it's probably worth giving a go? ...
Lemme take a look rq, in between Arc rounds
I would say cut one of the blanket -1/-1 effects for Rise, feels like its a little too many ways to just say "oops only I can have creatures now" even for bracket 3
golden bolt
i don't think that's an issue here, again the point is for these to be pretty strong, but i do think maybe like Nausea can go
because if you can't get maha down it doesn't do much other than kill mana dorks
i also wanna swap something in for... whatever the cycling card is that gives -2/-2
[[Decree of Pain]]
silk quailBOT
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated. Draw a card for each creature destroyed this way.
Cycling 
(, Discard this card: Draw a card.)
When you cycle this card, all creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.
golden hawk
yeah that'd be good here
one sided board wipe or full boardwip that refreshes your grip
golden bolt
yeah
i thought it might be
are the creature suite okay?
it feels a little heavy for MBC, but most lists i looked at were
toshiro i was running like 12
golden hawk
Nah seems fine to me
though I tend to build more creature heavy decks, especially these days
golden bolt
yeah, for me it depends on the deck
like obviously toshiro wants a lower creature count and more instants and spells that say draw 2 cards on them
but even then, 18 still feels high for mbc
golden bolt
Alright. This one was easier.
And with that, that's all the monocolor decks done. Anti-Venom was for sure the hardest and it still might just get ditched and end up monowhite delney or preston or giada or something.
golden bolt
[[Avatar of Growth]] i need to put this in Six
silk quailBOT
Creature — Elemental Avatar
This spell costs less to cast for each opponent you have.
Trample
When this creature enters, each player searches their library for up to two basic land cards, puts them onto the battlefield, then shuffles.
4/4
golden bolt
reminding myself for when i get home
supple jacinth
[[Avatar of Growth]] i need to put this in Six
Another card Im waiting to come in foil
golden bolt
Another card Im waiting to come in foil
When I saw it I wondered why I'd never seen it before, and then I found out that like Rot Hulk (when I saw that one in the Mystery Booster 2 list), it was EXCLUSIVE to the Game Night boxes, and had never been reprinted.
I had been suggesting people play Wilhelt for a couple of years without ever seeing one of the most powerful zombies you can drop off of a Rooftop Storm, kinda crazy.
but now wilhelt gets a really pretty future sight frame rot hulk, and maybe someday the same will happen to avatar of growth
golden bolt
I have found a place where my process starts breaking down, and it's when you simply need a critical mass of creatures in a specific typal archetype, but you're out of ones that progress the gameplan.
I never realized how terrible the average zombie is
pallid tide
You can consider how many actual zombies you need. Given that in zombies, there will likely be tons of tokens going around.
golden bolt
Yeah I'm probably gonna keep around 25 total creatures with a few nonzombies
Trying to stay lean and nimble here so I'm not burning key slots on lords that don't do anything but still having enough quantity for 3 mana Geralf to be worth it
pallid tide
Either 3 mana Geralf doesn't care about the numer of zombies in the deck, just the amount of zombies you can produce.
hoary sparrow
I never realized how terrible the average zombie is
I mean. Theres enough just innistrad themed ones to make an innistrad zombie deck work? https://moxfield.com/decks/iGMAPjjUFUKvxv_1POmNkg
Not even counting zombies from other planes
golden bolt
Either 3 mana Geralf doesn't care about the numer of zombies in the deck, just t...
Visionary Stitcher does, unfortunately, care about your ability to have actual nontoken creatures, but honestly he might come out.
pallid tide
Visionary Stitcher does, unfortunately, care about your ability to have actual n...
True enough, non-zombies in zombie decks are probably not cards you'd like to sacrifice.
Unless you fall for the cleric gimmick with [[Rotlung Reanimator]], but not your colors I guess.
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
Blue does have the [[Artificial Evolution]] we used to run with it in standard though
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
I mean. Theres enough just innistrad themed ones to make an innistrad zombie dec...
I mean sure, there's a lot of zombies, that's not the issue, but a fair few of those are just stats with no other impact on the game. Something like Champion of the Perished, that's fine, but Catapult Fodder or Drunau or the like just don't provide that much in terms of game impact.
And that's kind of the problem with a lot of zombies, there's a lot of them, but a lot of them are just stats and maybe a keyword.
i did however forget geralf's messenger
I am excited do be done with Wilhelt, though, because I really wanna try out those cool new loops with Walton Goggins
[[The Ghoul, Gunslinger]] + [[Gravecrawler]] + any sac outlet is infinite rad now, with the understanding that you WILL be perishing if you fuck up
golden bolt
and if it's an outlet that creates colored mana or you have a way to play gravecrawler for free you're able to kill other people with it
pallid tide
Gravecrawler loops really are the core of all zombie decks it seems.
golden bolt
this can't contain gravecrawler phyrexian altar though
since that's not legal in b3 🙁
so you gotta get creative
pallid tide
Is it not? Would the combo need to include a payoff for the action? Or ah, that is in your commander I suppose?
golden bolt
at least in the league i play in rn which is what im basing the ruleset on when i run my own, it goes off of community consensus on edhrec
pallid tide
Ah, fair enough
golden bolt
and yeah, not legal in 3
this said, i have other gravecrawler loops that are legal
pallid tide
Ofcourse, how can you not? 😉
golden bolt
Warren Soultrader + Bastion of Rememberance + Gravecrawler is a loop
and with Mr. Walton Goggins, it's infinite mana infinite rad counters
similarly, gravecrawler + the ghoul + any sac outlet + [[diregraf captain]] is a table kill
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
which is a nonspecific 3 card but hey
pallid tide
Yeah those are the two things almost guaranteed to happen in any game with a zombie deck.
Gravecrawler loop and Diregraf Captain
golden bolt
yeah, any sac outlet and anything that deals 1 damage when a creature dies are pretty generic
need to check the text on [[the meathook massacre]] though
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
yeah, this one works too
pallid tide
Now is a Rotlung Reanimator combo going in? Or too iffy without tutors?
golden bolt
i think rotlung probably doesn't end up in the deck, my tutors are pretty limited
and usually tutors are grabbing rooftop storm or gravecrawler 99% of the time i think
maybe the ghoul if you have one or the other
hoary sparrow
and with Mr. Walton Goggins, it's infinite mana infinite rad counters
eldritch wizard voice ”and for my next spell; i will cast: summon walton goggins***!!!***”
golden bolt
been a really long time since i've done [[rooftop storm]] combos
silk quailBOT
Enchantment
You may pay rather than pay the mana cost for Zombie creature spells you cast.
"Let those idiot priests tremble! A new era in unlife begins here and now. Oglor, raise the lightning vane!" —Stitcher Geralf
golden bolt
*eldritch wizard voice* ***”and for my next spell; i will cast: summon*** walton...
HELL YEAH
pallid tide
Ah man, I think tutors for an infinite combo are a bit lame in bracket 3 to be honest.
golden bolt
im never referring to him as the ghoul in person, this is a deck im getting proxied and i am FOR SURE going to just say Walton Goggins every time
because his name is so fucking fun to say
pallid tide
Unless it is extraordinarily convoluted.
golden bolt
i mean again it's at least 3 cards
hoary sparrow
im never referring to him as the ghoul in person, this is a deck im getting prox...
As you should
golden bolt
also, i can't run the good good tutors because GC slots
i gotta run shit like diabolic intent and mastermind's acquisition
and [[beseech the mirror]] which may or may not be a godsent in this deck specifically
silk quailBOT
hoary sparrow
[[long term plans]] aint bad
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
Warren Soultrader + Gravecrawler + Wilhelt though..
golden bolt
long term plans is probably ending up in there
doesnt that just kill me before i have the resources to kill the table
am i wrong
hoary sparrow
[[rhystic tutor]] if you’re feelin particularly spicy
silk quailBOT
Sorcery
Unless any player pays , search your library for a card, put that card into your hand, then shuffle.
Any lock can be undone, any secret revealed.
golden bolt
[[lim-dul's vault]] is similarly likely to end up in the deck
silk quailBOT
pallid tide
doesnt that just kill me before i have the resources to kill the table
Only if you have nothing else going on.
golden bolt
but im a little iffy on it since you REALLY cannot afford to pay a ton of life if you're doing walton goggins loops
not because you'll die to the mill but because you have more than 40 nonlands in your deck
and as a result you will just fucking die to the rad counters
here's a thing i think is interesting though, you don't need to actually have an infinite combo if you're really careful with him
as long as you can fish rooftop storm out of the deck before you do it, you can give yourself like 15 rad counters and still get a lot of value out of it
golden bolt
[[rhystic tutor]] if you’re feelin particularly spicy
honestly might be worth it in this since most of your tutoring needs to be done before you start milling your deck
and the earlier tutoring needs to be done the better rhystic tutor is
pallid tide
You have no cards that bring things out of your graveyard?
golden bolt
not enchantments
storm bolt
Gravecrawler loops really are the core of all zombie decks it seems.
Only if you're a nerd
golden bolt
i dont know if black has any access
fresh parcel
[[animate dead]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
not what i mean
storm bolt
[[narfi]] :3
silk quailBOT
fresh parcel
Fair
storm bolt
dammit
golden bolt
i mean i dont have any way to get enchantments out of the graveyard
storm bolt
[[narfi the betrayer]]
silk quailBOT
fresh parcel
Ahh
golden bolt
if i mill the deck i can't really rooftop storm if it hits the bin
pallid tide
Only if you're a nerd
Haha, fair. I'm not actually fond of it. It's just how all the zombie decks I've ever played against turn out.
storm bolt
[[narfi betrayer king]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Snow Creature — Zombie Wizard
Other snow and Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1.
: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped. ( can be paid with one mana from a snow source.)
To serve the god of death, Narfi forfeited the warmth of life.
4/3
storm bolt
Haha, fair. I'm not actually fond of it. It's just how all the zombie decks I've...
People who insist on needing an infinite combo in all their decks need to build their decks better
That's a hot take I've held forever now
golden bolt
not all of these have infinites
storm bolt
If you want them, that's fine
golden bolt
but if zombies have an iconic one, i think it should be in there
fresh parcel
[[crystal chimes]]
silk quailBOT
Artifact
, , Sacrifice this artifact: Return all enchantment cards from your graveyard to your hand.
As Serra was to learn, the peace and sanctity of her realm were as fragile as glass.
storm bolt
I'm just talking about the people who think that every single deck should have one in it, no questions asked
pallid tide
That's a hot take I've held forever now
Not very hot, do agree. My zombie deck is an enchantress deck ^^
fresh parcel
I have devoted too much of my brain to this sort of stuff
golden bolt
you could have made this up and i'd believe you
fresh parcel
[[skull of orm]] is the other one
silk quailBOT
Artifact
, : Return target enchantment card from your graveyard to your hand.
Though lifeless, the skull still possessed a strange power over the flow of magic.
pallid tide
I have devoted too much of my brain to this sort of stuff
Same same ^^
golden bolt
i know skull of orm because i played 8ed
and also because at one point it was an option we looked at for getting back blood moons against green decks in skred
(we did not actually ever test it there)
fresh parcel
It's been printed 3 times, the list, C15 and Urza's Saga
golden bolt
i dont think i actually looked at the list of any of the exp counter decks
you'll have to forgive me those decks were a plague locally, as most precons were in those days
mostly Meren though
any Meren of Clan Nel Toth players 
pallid tide
[[Recall]] Man, why was that name so hard to recall
silk quailBOT
fresh parcel
I was linking it out of novelty more than anything else
golden bolt
[[Recall]] Man, why was that name so hard to recall
wait that's 3 mana discard a zombie get back rooftop storm
im actually adding that, that's a good shout
storm bolt
what color combo is this?
golden bolt
[[wilhelt the rotcleaver]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
if you'll oblige me though i prefer grimgrin
fresh parcel
My question is whether Wilhelt is going to be seen as stronger than you want. But I guess that's a balance question for later
golden bolt
He was pretty much exactly what i had considered as the power level intended
maybe a little above but we can always tweak, there are truly no shortage of commanders in UB for zombies
fresh parcel
Yep
golden bolt
i can think of at least 5 just off the dome
fresh parcel
I like Grimgrin more as well.
I still think it's funny how Grimgrin and [[gisa|otj]] interact with its ability being a crime
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Warlock
Ward—, Pay 2 life.
Skeletons and Zombies you control get +1/+1 and have menace.
Whenever you commit a crime, create two tapped 2/2 blue and black Zombie Rogue creature tokens. This ability triggers only once each turn. (Targeting opponents, anything they control, and/or cards in their graveyards is a crime.)
4/4
pallid tide
All the zombie commanders can fall into the same tutor infinite setup trap.
pallid tide
Gisa is so sick. I love adding her to decks she's got no business in.
golden bolt
ok, i guess exactly 5
i want gisa in this deck so bad but not that much of what im doing is criminal
if i was building Walton Goggins instead she'd be in though
and if i swap to Grimgrin she'll go in
fresh parcel
Narfi
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
Whenever Ludevic enters or attacks, mill a card.
, Exile X creature cards from your graveyard: Transform Ludevic. X can't be 0. Activate only as a sorcery.
2/3
Olag, Ludevic's Hubris
Legendary Creature — Zombie
As this creature transforms into Olag, Ludevic's Hubris, it becomes a copy of a creature card exiled with it, except its name is Olag, Ludevic's Hubris, it's 4/4, and it's a legendary blue and black Zombie in addition to its other colors and types. Put a number of +1/+1 counters on Olag equal to the number of creature cards exiled with it.
4/4
golden bolt
I REMEMBERED ONE MORE
fresh parcel
I wasn't sure if it counted
golden bolt
i think this card is horrible but he's 2 mana which has its upsides
i dont know if it counts, counts to me though
actually he probably doesn't, he kinda isnt very good with actual zombies
fresh parcel
[[narfi, betrayer]] as @storm bolt had pointed out earlier
silk quailBOT
Legendary Snow Creature — Zombie Wizard
Other snow and Zombie creatures you control get +1/+1.
: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped. ( can be paid with one mana from a snow source.)
To serve the god of death, Narfi forfeited the warmth of life.
4/3
golden bolt
yeah, narfi
i think that's it though
still, that's a lot more than some archetypes get
fresh parcel
[[Dee kay]] isn't a zombie commander
fresh parcel
Neither is [[dralnu]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
dee kay is an artifact commander
fresh parcel
[[dralnu, lich lord]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Zombie Wizard
If damage would be dealt to Dralnu, sacrifice that many permanents instead.
: Target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost. (You may cast that card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)
3/3
fresh parcel
Grimgrin also has cool alternate art [[!grimgrin|mul|171]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
i think the thing i like most about grimgrin is using him with stuff like relic of legends and springleaf drum
i find those interactions really fulfilling and they make playing zombies more than just "i make a value engine and draw a card... sigh..."
like now those cards that just make 1 zombie a turn are actually producing 2 mana every turn
pallid tide
Oh, the value! 😉
golden bolt
i love value and zombies is where i am getting my value fix in the two-color combos
but sometimes i do just like having cool ways to get that value, rather than generic stuff everyone plays
fresh parcel
With the Gisa I listed, you get 3 additional zombies a turn and grow grimgrin by 3
golden bolt
well, you'd need a way to target on opposing turns
since his crime is only on attack
fresh parcel
As long as you have a thing that make a crime
silk quailBOT
Artifact Creature — Phyrexian Insect
: Remove up to X counters from target permanent. For each counter removed this way, this creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. ( can be paid with either or 2 life.)
Drawn by power, fueled by conquest.
1/1
golden bolt
i was born to do crime value i would still be playing Marchesa Dealer of Death right now if people didn't hate playing against it
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
golden bolt
long may she fucking reign bot, you're right
fresh parcel
[[zombie trailblazer]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
[[Marchesa, Dealer of Death]] is like, top 3 most fun commanders ever printed imo
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Rogue
Whenever you commit a crime, you may pay . If you do, look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other into your graveyard. (Targeting opponents, anything they control, and/or cards in their graveyards is a crime.)
"You should have folded when you had the chance."
3/4
golden bolt
the things you get to play in that deck just because they incidentally target?
fucking incredible
fresh parcel
She's incredibly cool
But people focused on "why is she a cowboy"
I don't know, why was she a wizard and then an assassin
Still a highpoint of drafting is getting to equip her with [[lost jitte ]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Artifact — Equipment
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put a charge counter on Lost Jitte.
Remove a charge counter from Lost Jitte: Choose one —
• Untap target land.
• Target creature can't block this turn.
• Put a +1/+1 counter on equipped creature.
Equip
storm bolt
She's so generic it's hard for me to find something I really wanted to do other than, like, control
Since control naturally commits a lot of crime
fresh parcel
[[grim hirling]] saccing 0 treasure, still counts as a crime
silk quailBOT
Creature — Tiefling Rogue
Whenever one or more creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, create two Treasure tokens.
, Sacrifice X Treasures: Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn. Activate only as a sorcery.
3/2
pallid tide
She's so generic it's hard for me to find something I really wanted to do other ...
My mind went to the filtering she provides, it invites me to build a deck that runs a lot of situational cards.
storm bolt
Probably?
Or like, reanimator
Or maybe just dump instants and sorceries and run snapcaster mage type effects to buy them back later
golden bolt
She's so generic it's hard for me to find something I really wanted to do other ...
there is nothing wrong with control
people fucking hate playing against it but there is nothing wrong with it
maybe i go back to playing her when i move to Portland, i miss those hands where it's just like "erhm, amphibian downpour storm count 3, i'll pay 3 mana and draw 3 cards???"
storm bolt
I don't have issue with control
I love control
But that's the only thing I can think of playing with her
And then the question is how the hell do i win
storm bolt
Which jace
golden bolt
[[Jace the Mind Sculptor]] little known card, I'm sure you've never heard of it, he's pretty niche
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
Right, I just remember at least a few of them being control win cons
golden bolt
this with a dreamtide whale goes insane
storm bolt
FTFY This with a dreamtide whale goes insane
golden bolt
marchesa loves that shit and people freak out bc you're gonna win the game the turn you drop him sometimes
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
storm bolt
Card is cracked
golden bolt
because you play literally any of the "when you cast a spell proliferate" things
because they happen to be good with other cards that are good with marchesa
storm bolt
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
What about a marches control built around [[inferno titan]] style stuff?
silk quailBOT
Creature — Giant
: This creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
Whenever this creature enters or attacks, it deals 3 damage divided as you choose among one, two, or three targets.
6/6
golden bolt
like [[tibalt god of trickery]] is crazy
silk quailBOT
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — God
When Valki enters, each opponent reveals their hand. For each opponent, exile a creature card they revealed this way until Valki leaves the battlefield.
: Choose a creature card exiled with Valki with mana value X. Valki becomes a copy of that card.
2/1
Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor
Legendary Planeswalker — Tibalt
As Tibalt enters, you get an emblem with "You may play cards exiled with Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast those spells."
+2: Exile the top card of each player's library.
−3: Exile target artifact or creature.
−8: Exile all graveyards. Add .
Loyalty: 5
storm bolt
Yeah that's a fun one
golden bolt
this one wins games a lot in marchesa
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
golden bolt
i dont know i was running like 6 planeswalkers
storm bolt
Right but like. Control until you run out a walker then ride it to victory
golden bolt
[[teferi master of time]], jtms, valki, one of the chandras, and two other ones i dont even remember
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
yeah
storm bolt
Hmmmmm
golden bolt
oh, ral monsoon mage was one of them
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
Instant and sorcery spells you cast cost less to cast.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell during your turn, flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Ral deals 1 damage to you. If you win the flip, you may exile Ral. If you do, return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control.
1/3
Ral, Leyline Prodigy
Legendary Planeswalker — Ral
Ral enters with an additional loyalty counter on him for each instant and sorcery spell you've cast this turn.
+1: Until your next turn, instant and sorcery spells you cast cost less to cast.
−2: Ral deals 2 damage divided as you choose among one or two targets. Draw a card if you control a blue permanent other than Ral.
−8: Exile the top eight cards of your library. You may cast instant and sorcery spells from among them this turn without paying their mana costs.
Loyalty: 2
storm bolt
What about otter ral?
storm bolt
Noice
golden bolt
i've never played otter ral
storm bolt
[[ral|BLB]]
golden bolt
i like monsoon mage since he makes marchesa's spells cost less
silk quailBOT
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
golden bolt
[[ral crackling wit]]
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
god I had to use atags to find it
golden bolt
this probably works, if you're running enough of the random proliferate stuff he probably hits 10 on the turn you cast him
that's kinda big for marchesa, if a pw can ult the turn it's cast it probably belongs in the deck
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
storm bolt
I feel like you could even use stuff like [[ob nixilis adversary]]
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
you draw some serious fucking cards in this deck with that out bc you can just play the good guttersnipe effects
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
Literally triggers marchesa every turn
lilac perchBOT
Long May She Reign! :crown:
golden bolt
correct
storm bolt
Man I love the lord of pain
golden bolt
he wasnt out when i first built the deck but he probably works fine
storm bolt
It's just such a good card overall
So I imagine this deck is pretty mana intensive yeah
Ooh, waterbender's skin and victory chimes would do numbers here too
With how often she'd trigger on other turns
silk quailBOT
Legendary Creature — Human Shaman
Whenever you cast a red spell, untap Chandra.
: Chandra deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker. If Chandra has dealt 3 or more damage this turn, exile her, then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control.
2/2
Chandra, Roaring Flame
Legendary Planeswalker — Chandra
+1: Chandra deals 2 damage to target player or planeswalker.
−2: Chandra deals 2 damage to target creature.
−7: Chandra deals 6 damage to each opponent. Each player dealt damage this way gets an emblem with "At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals 3 damage to you."
Loyalty: 4
golden bolt
again, VERY easy to -7 her the turn she flips
golden bolt
and then you have inevitability
storm bolt
[[bottomless pit]] type shit
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
i don't really like discard in this, it feels weird
you really want to be at or above 7 cards almost all the time
golden bolt
yeah
also she benefits from those really card-intensive free spells a lot, like commandeer or misdirect
or the black one i cant remember the name of
storm bolt
[[unmask]], obviosuly
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
so having a lot of cards in hand helps pay for them
yeah, unmask is insane in this
she loves it
storm bolt
I was joking since you said you didn't like discard but yeah lol
silk quailBOT
golden bolt
that's the one
storm bolt
Did you consider running lands that were crime engines too
There's stuff like [[hammerheim]] that's really funny
silk quailBOT
Legendary Land
: Add .
: Target creature loses all landwalk abilities until end of turn.
"'Tis distance lends enchantment to the view,/ And robes the mountain in its azure hue." —Thomas Campbell, "Pleasures of Hope"
golden bolt
it's not great but it's fine
storm bolt
Like it kills x/1s yeah?
storm bolt
[[desert]]
silk quailBOT
Land — Desert
: Add .
: This land deals 1 damage to target attacking creature. Activate only during the end of combat step.
silk quailBOT
Legendary Land
: Add .
, : Shivan Gorge deals 1 damage to each opponent.
Both forge and pyre.
storm bolt
ohno nvm
golden bolt
desert is free, this one costs mana
storm bolt
Now's my opportunity to run [[tolaria]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Land
: Add .
: Target creature loses banding and all "bands with other" abilities until end of turn. Activate only during any upkeep step.
"Fairest Isle, all isles excelling,/ Seat of Pleasures, and of loves . . ." —John Dryden
golden bolt
maybe im crazy, it's not in this list and i might just be misremembering
it has been a while since people let me play her 
storm bolt
Fair and valid
golden bolt
is it bad if i dont like necroduality
im looking at this and a lot of what i've got doesn't really benefit from it
and also, weirdly compared to a lot of zombies lists, i'm relatively high on legendary creatures
i've got 2 mana Sidisi, Zul Ashur, Geralf Fleshwright, Raul Troubleshooter, Walton Goggins, Tormod the Desecrator, Grimgin, and Mikaeus
the downside of cutting it is the only ways to clone Rot Hulk are omnichangeling and twilight diviner otherwise
this is the creature suite
i think necroduality is just worse than just playing Meathook Massacre or something
golden bolt
Had some driving thoughts on afternoon route I'm gonna try to articulate when I get back from the trip. Just dropping the client off now.
golden bolt
My actual thoughts are that maybe 32 decks is both excessive and unnecessary and doesn't accomplish the goal of making a set of decks for people who don't know what they want to play. 32 decks is a lot, and for someone with decision paralysis already, it's not functionally any better than the number of options they see opening up EDHREC or whatever, and that my time might be spent better by making 8-10 decks that are more compact, better crafted, and more indicative of the format's power level, rather than trying to get overly creative. Thoughts @fresh parcel , @golden hawk ?
fresh parcel
I think it's a noble exercise but it's going to be hard to keep up to date and have enough people testing them to get meaningful feedback unless people take one for the whole season.
golden bolt
Well the point is that every season you lock in 1 deck
but also, if nobody picks a deck, it never gets tested or updated
golden hawk
TBH 32 decks narrows it down a LOT, especially if those decks are indicative of the core experience of that color pair. For folks that are overwhelmed looking at all the options, they can get a more narrow scope of things through the library and more easily go by initial gut instinct, then branch out later after having more gameplay experience to go off of.
golden bolt
One of my major problems with some of these is that they aren't, as much as it's hard to make a deck indicative of playing monowhite or monoblue, or similarly the 4-color decks.
like, I think I spent a long time on Anti-Venom and Jalira and the result is a failure
Six, Zada, and Maha are all great and very indicative of their monocolor's gameplay styles, typically.
pallid tide
I think it is impossible to nail all the color combinations. The benefit of having a deck rather than an EDHREC page is that you can more easily see how things would fit together as a complete picture.
golden bolt
Hmm, interesting thing today, thanks to a buddy of mine watching a podcast I was made aware that Maha + Night of Souls' Betrayal is, by the definition of what the rules for my current IRL bracket 3 league are, not actually legal, despite being the flimsiest lock I've ever heard of.
Which means I may need to be more hands-on with what is and is not allowed with the online league when I start running that.
I'm so fucking tired, this is going to be a ton of extra work, maybe it's not worth it
golden bolt
In bracket 3, by my evaluation and by my experience, decks should be capable of making strong and efficient plays, running enough disruptive elements to have game agency, and a clear and focused win strategy. Most games in this bracket should end on turn 6 or later.
There are a few ways to accomplish this in an easy-to-understand and concise ruleset for a league:
- The first option is that players build decks based on what is decided by community consensus on EDHREC. This has pitfalls when it comes to locks and control strategies, as it is emotionally driven, but so is EDH.
- The second option is to simply not enable any 2 card combo of any kind that can result in a game ending before turn 6. This also prevents basically every 2-card combo that wins the game, and seems unideal.
- The third is to restrict combos to ones above a total mana cost. I'm not sure if this is a great option, either.
- The last one I can see is to play it by ear with the established guidelines, and if someone is consistently winning before turn 6, just give them a warning that the thing they're doing is too fast for the league.
I do, at the end of the day, want to foster players improving in their gameplay and working on their decks with the info they get from people who are there for the same goal, and I like the last one the least, but if it becomes a problem at some later date, it may need to become one of the other three.
Similarly, I think I decided that it's going to be far too difficult and time-consuming to build 32 total decks before the start of the league that are all around similar levels of power because I'm one human being handling it, so I'm going to dial it back.
supple jacinth
Hmm, interesting thing today, thanks to a buddy of mine watching a podcast I was...
How do you figure?
Its not a lock, its a floating boardwipe
golden bolt
How do you figure?
Current rules for the league I am in go by EDHREC, and EDHREC has Maha+Night banned in bracket 3.
I fully agree with you though, if it's a lock it is the flimsiest lock of all time
supple jacinth
Edhrec isnt any kind of authority, they are data scrubbers
golden bolt
Yeah, that's why I'm thinking I may need to handle things differently.
supple jacinth
Thats like trusting a nursing student as much as your doctor
golden bolt
But also, it's a lot of work to handle things like "what kinds of combos should be allowed here" on top of everything else, so I understand why a group of students running an event at a store would do that
supple jacinth
Easily illustrated difference here as compared to a real lock though
This kills creatures, but you can play all other card types and a rec sage still gets you out
golden bolt
Correct, like I would say "hey maybe we're not doing Lavinia Pool before turn 6 homies"
but maha night is literally just removal
a single swords to plowshares breaks you out of it, even if Maha's in the CZ
and in b3 you are expected to run interaction
that's in the stated goals for the bracket
golden hawk
Tbh for bracket 3 I’d say a brine elemental + vesuvan shape shifter is probably alot more concerning than a flimsy creature lock.
golden bolt
i would argue that casting the spell humility is harder to handle
than maha night
at least with humility you need specifically enchantment removal to break the lock and creature-based ones don't work
golden bolt
Tbh for bracket 3 I’d say a brine elemental + vesuvan shape shifter is probably ...
this is legal by EDHREC standards
you can just do this to people
"this isnt an earlygame combo" i think this is a total of 7 mana
maybe im wrong about that?
supple jacinth
Even if you do get this out early....
What does it do that shortens the game exactly?
The birds a 4 turn clock on one player, thats still in the turn range including a t1 sol ring start
golden bolt
yeah exactly
sure you can play other things but like, on its own the game is guaranteed to last at least another 15 turns
also *5 turn clock
maha would be a 5/4
golden bolt
the slowest win condition ever, you're telling me that across 45 cards none of your opponents have a way to remove this combo
supple jacinth
But youll curve maha later without a signet
golden bolt
it's not 45 cards it's uhhh
5+10+15
so 30 cards
if my opponents cannot answer this within minimum 30 cards between them i think the maha player deserves the win
supple jacinth
Learning experiences are, in fact, allowed
golden bolt
yeah
i wanna make sure there is a clear way to say "this is the kind of 2-card interaction that wins" and "this is the kind of 2-card interaction that doesn't" and that one is okay and one isn't
like MBC isn't winning by hitting with Maha, it's winning by reanimating Gary a bunch of times
supple jacinth
I mean, use this and lavinia as examples of what kind of locks are kosher or not
golden bolt
but this lock doesn't prevent you from interacting with that win
lavinia pool is winning with hitting you with lavinia, but you can't interact with that win
well, you can, there's boseiju and otawara and turtle
but like you get what i mean
funny how all the answers to that one are in simic
any uncounterable artifact destruction spell does it too i guess, so red's got some
golden bolt
@storm bolt who says i can't build a +1/+1 counter deck
i'd really like to fit Teferi Hero of Dominaria in here but it's just not in the cards i fear
actually i probably don't need thrasios and he might become teferi hero of dominaria
hoary sparrow
i'd really like to fit Teferi Hero of Dominaria in here but it's just not in the...
Do you have lots of different KINDS of counters? Maybe blitzball stadium gets the axe then
storm bolt
Do you have lots of different KINDS of counters? Maybe blitzball stadium gets th...
the unblockable is pretty valuable
storm bolt
https://moxfield.com/decks/Y3lZKf4kNEa4OvVSbcHZYw
Okay this is gonna sound weird but.. add ms. bumbleflower
[[ms bumbleflower]]
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
It's card advantage, it's evasion, it's free counters with every spell
It's so damn good
Scavenged brawler is very much just fine, especially at 5 mana
Why is thrasios here?
Is there a devoted druid combo I'm unaware of
Tyranid prime seems significantly mid, but maybe with falco spara specifically it's okay
[[jace the mind sculptor]] seems like he'd be really good in this deck
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
brainstorm each turn to set up the falco spara topdecks
Agent's toolkit seems very mid when you could just run [[court of garenbrig]]
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
Why thrummingbird but no [[grateful apparition]]
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
It's a better copy of thrumming
Hullbreaker horror seems pretty out of place?
Also I haven't casted a fertilid since 2020 💀
steelbane hydra kinda sucks compared to [[hopeful initiate]]
silk quailBOT
Creature — Human Warlock
Training (Whenever this creature attacks with another creature with greater power, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.)
, Remove two +1/+1 counters from among creatures you control: Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
1/2
storm bolt
Gala greeters is a neat card for falco
I feel like glen archmage and guardian will get a lot more hate than you want them to
Thought lash is very funny
Kinda just mid but very funny
3feri seems okay here? Like why not just run something that goes with your gameplan
hoary sparrow
https://scryfall.com/card/inr/27/hopeful-initiate
Hopeful initiate rips
golden bolt
I'm gonna look at these in a bit, thanks for checking my work
golden bolt
okay i didnt really have much time yesterday but i have a few minutes here
golden bolt
Is there a devoted druid combo I'm unaware of
there are a couple of 3-card ones iirc unless i cut cards
I'd be totally down to drop Tyranid Prime, I like him but I think he's just not strong enough for where this deck wants to be
I do think Bumbleflower's a decent include
gonna swap some stuff out as well
but notably i am pretty sure Teferi's part of one of my combos in this, which is why he's in, along with obviously being a silence effect to protect those wins
I checked, I actually cut Displacer Kitten which was part of the combo Teferi was in for
Agent's Toolkit was in there mostly for proliferating shield counters and moving them, but actually i probably don't need it
OH WAIT ACTUALLY it's because it generates 4 counters immediately
for falco
storm bolt
[[falco spara]]
silk quailBOT
silk quailBOT
Artifact — Clue
This artifact enters with a +1/+1 counter, a flying counter, a deathtouch counter, and a shield counter on it. (If it would be dealt damage or destroyed, remove a shield counter from it instead.)
Whenever a creature you control enters, you may move a counter from this artifact onto that creature.
, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.
storm bolt
So like it works but you'd have to have a steady stream of creatures to get access to them
golden bolt
yeah you're right
and i mean this runs a lot of creatures but not that many
30 is still way more than i am comfortable with
oh, right, and umaru you asked if there's an infinite mana combo
and also mentioned hullbreaker being weird
hullbreaker is the infinite mana source for thras
i should put in a lotus petal or something to make it more consistent though if i keep that in
storm bolt
I guess?
It just has nothing to do with the commander and just seems randomly stuck in there
I'd rather just run something like [[court of garenbrig]] as a counter generator and a way to draw
silk quailBOT
storm bolt
Keep the pressure rolling
golden bolt
i would like to have some infinite mana -> thrasios maybe but i don't know of any in these colors that isnt too early
the only ones i know are devoted combos and basking broodscale combos
storm bolt
I think Thrasios on his own is just a strange include here
golden bolt
yeah
storm bolt
It's a bad 2 drop if you don't have a combo
And your combo relies on a few other cards falling perfectly into your lap
golden bolt
i can agree, he was in early bc i had a lot more ways to generate infinite mana originally
storm bolt
I'd rather just make the deck as a whole work better
golden bolt
and he just never came out when other stuff did
storm bolt
Like if I was gonna run some kind of shenanigans with infinite mana in this deck, I
I'd just run top so falco can storm off the top
golden bolt
i can't run any of the devoted or broodscale stuff which makes those infinites hard, too
because the moment i put devoted into the deck a bunch of stuff has to come out
storm bolt
Either cast the spells directly or top top then cast that
golden bolt
and those things are all out
yeah i mean i agree, i do like having a way to win through drannith though
sometimes you get Avatar's Wrath'd
and i'd like the answer to not just be "pray you live until your next turn after you got timewalked"
storm bolt
Idk, if I see a drannith in a b3 game I'd usually just walk away from that table
golden bolt
this deck gets timewalked by avatar's wrath super easy too so im very 
storm bolt
You're gonna run into cards you lose to
golden bolt
yeah
i just like having answers to it
and locally avatar's wrath has been fucking everywhere
because so many decks are commander reliant
so i have a bias
golden bolt
@storm bolt @hoary sparrow https://moxfield.com/decks/Y3lZKf4kNEa4OvVSbcHZYw because you helped, here's what we've got after making some changes and I think it looks better
although I might swap jace for [[jiang yanggu, wildcrafter]]
silk quailBOT
Legendary Planeswalker — Yanggu
Each creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it has ": Add one mana of any color."
−1: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
Loyalty: 3
golden bolt
or some other slot im not really married to replacing jace either
storm bolt
Which jace again?
golden bolt
JTMS
like i said, it's not necessarily that slot that's just one of the ones that might go
I'm also considering Charitable Levy
[[Charitable Levy]]
silk quailBOT
Enchantment
Noncreature spells cost more to cast.
Whenever a player casts a noncreature spell, put a collection counter on this enchantment. Then if there are three or more collection counters on it, sacrifice it. If you do, draw a card, then you may search your library for a Plains card, put it onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle.
golden bolt
Oh, yeah definitely do jiang instead
I actually just replaced Tyranid Prime with it, since I think it's probably not as good in this.
golden bolt
I think it's good enough for now, I'll move onto the next deck when I wake up from this nap. I'm gonna try to finish Umineko this weekend since Mewgenics is tuesday, so my deckbuilding speed will be slow, but I still wanna get ~4 decks done by Monday.
golden bolt
That one's done. Pretty easy, first test hand was a very long and convoluted but decisive turn 6 kill with thopter foundry, sword of the meek, kci, skullclamp, and ghirapur aether grid
(i started the turn with just A Guy That Makes Thopters and KCI and Skullclamp, drew into A Second Guy That Makes Thopters and Stridehangar Automaton which is a large number of cards and mana, just needed to find the sword of the meek)
had a bunch of interaction i could use, some hands felt better than others but in general it was pretty fine
golden bolt
Number two for the night. This was easier to build than Breya, because I had literally just built Greta for someone else, so I know what I can't include and what I should.
I'd like to cut down the noncreature count for Heartwood Storyteller but I still think it's very good in this deck, especially in combination with Tataru Taru.
When [[Party Dude]] comes out, that'll probably replace something as well.
silk quailBOT
Enchantment — Class
(Gain the next level as a sorcery to add its ability.)
When this Class enters, each player creates a Food token.
: Level 2
Whenever an artifact an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, draw a card.
: Level 3
Whenever one or more of your opponents are attacked, up to one target attacking creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of cards in your hand.
golden bolt
And of course there's a fucking lot of things in TMNT in general that might go in. I might do a rebuild with Mutagen synergy then, or I might not. Who knows!
One thing I really appreciate from this deck is how almost all of it is searchable off of Recruiter of the Guard.
There's a few creatures that are 3 or greater, but the only really important card that isn't is Peregrin Took. You can even get Cabbage Man off of it.
fresh parcel
https://moxfield.com/decks/epAPL4JUoke6UgDztnEaHg
Part of me wonders about having Whurza and B3 but it's probably fine
It's enough pieces
pallid tide
https://moxfield.com/decks/epAPL4JUoke6UgDztnEaHg
The gap between your bracket 2 and 3 is massive ^^
golden bolt
Correct, no need to tell me twice haha
pallid tide
Yeah yeah, sorry, couldn't resist. ^^ That list does look a bit overtuned though.
fresh parcel
Whurza being the Urza+Sword+Thopter Foundry
fresh parcel
That's why I said it's probably fine
golden bolt
it's mostly the speed maybe being an issue, but this deck isnt exactly super fast in any other aspect
so i figured it's fine
pallid tide
That's the main thing that drew my attention to be fair.
golden bolt
i'm gonna be playtesting these this month to make sure they aren't too fast while uninteracted, so i'll catch stuff like that and tune
these are kind of a baseline
i just kinda need to get them done so i can do em lmao
fresh parcel
When is the goal for the start of this league again?
golden bolt
@stray umbra you've played against lumra by now at least a little right? mind if i get your opinion on if this is down-powered enough to not be a problem for b3? https://moxfield.com/decks/tSktLKVGXEGNOXr9l9ktJw
golden bolt
Back to the drawing board, I forgot this was supposed to be Sunforger actually.
golden bolt
Okay I still don't like this. I might remove this from the list, it just doesn't feel like I did things correctly?
silent cedar
how am I not in here?
silent cedar
i dont like tagging people who havent already come to hang out
you are free to tag me whenever
fresh parcel
i dont like tagging people who havent already come to hang out
I understand that. It's why I haven't really tagged anyone in my new thread
golden bolt
i am usually very easy to tag
Tonight's been a little depressing on the deckbuilding angle.
fresh parcel
I'm sorry, the Kellan?
golden bolt
Kellan feels bad, Brallin & Shabraz are by design not applicable to bracket 3 because i forgot Brallin is a 2 card combo with like everything that's ever existed
Even building Sefris and Narci felt bad. Just having an off day.
I knew the back half of this library would be significantly harder for me than the first half so I'm not surprised that it's going poorly.
fresh parcel
So, my husband has a Kellan Sunforger list and I just asked him to look at it
He's looking at his right now for comparison and he has some suggestions
golden bolt
hell yeah
fresh parcel
[[Deflecting palm]] [[inventory management]] [[take the bait]] [[flawless maneuver]]
fresh parcel
[[Settle the wreckage]] [[comeuppance]] are the cards that are his suggestions for inclusions
fresh parcel
Of things to consider for the sunforger package
golden bolt
i should probably be on comeuppance, if only because it gives me an extra way to not die to price of progress combo
fresh parcel
This is a slightly out of date version of his list https://moxfield.com/decks/JKbuCEABxkKHaITPxG8m-Q
golden bolt
sunforger is just entirely an archetype i dont play and never have so my ability to build it feels poor