Got a Sauron Dark Lord and I want to build a commander with a beefy commander for once. Any advice is welcome.
Preferrably so that it stays within bracket 3
#Sauron and his gang
neon gate
So far it is a bunch of army, unblockable and some additional decent card plus some recursion
harsh nebula
Ramp it out with rituals/rocks and combo/drain:
neon gate
Ramp it out with rituals/rocks and combo/drain:
https://moxfield.com/decks/gDMs...
The deck might be unlisted
static token
So far it is a bunch of army, unblockable and some additional decent card plus s...
I'd probably look at adding a few more pieces of interaction since I like to play with a lot of it.
Maybe 2 or 3 of one of these: Swan Song, Vandalblast, Toxic Deluge, Deadly Rollick, Snuff Out, and Go For the Throat? Dunno where your budget's at tho, but these are all pretty varied.
neon gate
I'd probably look at adding a few more pieces of interaction since I like to pla...
I have a handful of cards already. Would like to not spend more than 100 bucks to finish the deck.
I only got go for the throat of those listed
static token
Yeah, Vandalblast is pretty cheap too, but the other ones are like 5-15 bucks probably
Snuff out might be a little cheaper
Spell Pierce is a decent alternative to Swan Song tho
[[$Spell Pierce]]
wild vaultBOT
static token
(Or Negate/Arcane Denial, if you don't mind keeping the extra mana open)
neon gate
I have some spell pierce and a handful of [[stubborn denia]] at home
wild vaultBOT
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays 
.
Ferocious — If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, counter that spell instead.
The Temur have no patience for subtlety.
wild vaultBOT
static token
It gets most boardwipes, barring the X/Kicker costs
neon gate
Got some of those as well
I have a valgavoth in the binder. The 9 mana one
Is that gonna fit here?
static token
It's a house if you can reanimate it
neon gate
That is the plan
static token
Graveyard and Aristocrats players will not be playing the game tho. I had to take mine out of my br 3 deck cus it was harshing the vibes too much
Depends on your pods tho
static token
Is that gonna fit here?
Ngl, it's probably the highest value reanim target.
static token
It fucks up dies triggers too tho
neon gate
But he himself said "this deck is not that strong you people just vever play gy hate"
neon gate
It fucks up dies triggers too tho
That is true
I think there are like 4-6 decks total that i have seen so far at the lgs that need gy or stuff dying
static token
Combined with the theft effect it be salt inducing
static token
💯
static token
Depends, honestly. They can be, especially with Saruman out early
neon gate
Depends, honestly. They can be, especially with Saruman out early
Then what else does the deck need beside the board clears and some extra removals?
static token
Then what else does the deck need beside the board clears and some extra removal...
Well, if you really wanna close out games, [[Torment of Hailfire]] is an option. Honestly though, this is the point where I'd start goldfishing and playtesting on Forge to see where I feel the deck needs help.
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
Fineeeee
neon gate
Well, if you *really* wanna close out games, [[Torment of Hailfire]] is an optio...
Wdm playtest on forge?
static token
There's an App called MTG Forge which lets you playtest against CPU players.
It has automatic resolution too, so it helps you learn triggers and stuff
neon gate
Uuuuuuuh
That sounds neat
Can you point to something to cut to make space for the additions suggested before?
static token
https://github.com/Card-Forge/forge
There's the link
static token
👍
As for cuts, I'd look at some of the more jank recursion tools, like Vat of Rebirth. I always side-eye Oversold Cemetery too, but that I like to cheat my stuff in so that's hardly surprising. Ramirez is another one I'd maybe cut. Having to connect in combat, even with semi-evasion, is slow and telegraphed. Maybe Nihil Spellbomb -> Valgavoth, since they're both hating on the graveyard diggers.
neon gate
I have other hate so I will keep it in mind thank you
Maybe the sphere goes
Thank you will let you know how it goes
harsh nebula
At least IMO Sauron (besides its pretty strong evasion) does two things:
- Makes Orcs whenever an opponent plays a spell, which helps you go tall with one creature (you can either use changelings like Taurean Mauler or the Outcast to have them on board before Sauron)
- Triggers its Ring mechanic, which is a fantastic card selection engine for reanimator and just general value
The most cost effective inclusions are imo actually cheap instants or sorceries that trigger the Ring tempts you, so you get immediate value out of them to reanimate/get the best cards in your deck.
[[Birthday Escape]] [[Breaking of the Fellowship]] [[Sam’s desperate rescue]]
harsh nebula
Also I see you have many reanimation spells but two real beefy reanimation targets: Sheoldred and Ob. For having such reanimation support I would expect a lot more reanimation targets, like Archon of Cruelty at least. Another fantastic synergy to not miss out on is Archfiend of ifnir and Sauron’s discard ability.
neon gate
Also I see you have many reanimation spells but two real beefy reanimation targe...
I got a bit more beefy creatures that work as payoff for reanimate laying around. Archon of cruelty, Valgavoth the 9 mana one, summon:bahamut, mikaeus unhallowed, massacre wurm and vein ripper
neon gate
Also I see you have many reanimation spells but two real beefy reanimation targe...
I could get an Ifnir true that.
neon gate
Also I see you have many reanimation spells but two real beefy reanimation targe...
3 big targets in "big boys". Vilis might not be the best but he still gets the job done, I think
neon gate
At least IMO Sauron (besides its pretty strong evasion) does two things:
1. Make...
[[Sauron ransom]], [[call of the ring]] and [[ringsight]] are also pretty good
static token
3 big targets in "big boys". Vilis might not be the best but he still gets the j...
Villis is incredibly strong. Much stronger than Archon of Cruelty in most cases, imo.
static token
[[Sauron ransom]], [[call of the ring]] and [[ringsight]] are also pretty good
These are all good, yeah. I'd caution you that you need to have a creature count to keep call of the ring active tho.
static token
👍
neon gate
Should I run a couple more tutors?
I like [[insatiable avarice]] and [[sidisi undead visir]]
wild vaultBOT
Sorcery
Spree (Choose one or more additional costs.)
— Search your library for a card, then shuffle and put that card on top.
— Target player draws three cards and loses 3 life.
Akul didn't know what lay inside Tarnation's great vault, but the mystery fueled his obsession.
wild vaultBOT
static token
I can't recall if you have an easy way to stack it, but
[[Ayara's Oathsworn]] can be very solid in decks that can reliably put counters on
wild vaultBOT
static token
Hm?
neon gate
Then I could amass choosing her
neon gate
What ring?
neon gate
The ring tempts you nonsense?
static token
Yeah, make her Ringbearer
neon gate
Ye, plus a handful of other stuff to make the big ass army unblockable anyway
static token
Could be an idea. It might be a little telegraphed, but it's a demonic tutor
neon gate
Yeah, make her Ringbearer
Pass. I would still need 4 turns to get one tutor.
static token
Mm.
neon gate
A fun inclusion might be [[retribution of the ancients]]
wild vaultBOT
Enchantment
, Remove X +1/+1 counters from among creatures you control: Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn.
Abzan ancestors died to protect their Houses, and they protect them still.
neon gate
Turns the army into a removal
wild vaultBOT
Legendary Creature — Demon Rogue
Deathtouch
Boast — : Target player searches their library for a card, then shuffles and puts that card on top. (Activate only if this creature attacked this turn and only once each turn.)
"I waded through a river of fire to bring death to Bretagard."
2/3
neon gate
Uuuuuuh
static token
This would be a way to do it in 1 combat
static token
As usual, [[Beseech the Mirror]] is fantastic, but probably too much black mana to reliably cast in 3 colour
wild vaultBOT
harsh nebula
Then I could amass choosing her
How can you amass choosing it?
It has to be an Army — Zombie Army is a Zombie and an Army. Human Knight is not an Army afaik?
neon gate
I would need more type changing effects
@harsh nebula see the previous message
If I had more effects that can staple on her the Army type then it could work
neon gate
As usual, [[Beseech the Mirror]] is fantastic, but probably too much black mana ...
Ye, wonderful card but a bit too mana intensive
harsh nebula
If I had more effects that can staple on her the Army type then it could work
A bit articulate … I liked your insatiable avarice idea better and when you have 6 mana to play Sauron and a decent mana base, I think you can afford BBB (also in most Sauron decks B is the primary color and the other two are just support).
Small note, Ransom and Ringsight are synergistic with Sauron. If they resolve the Ring tempts trigger goes on the stack and you get to decide if you want to flush what you just tutored/drew (bad idea?) or not. So you get to decide if the card you tutored goes directly to graveyard. Which is good.
neon gate
For ransom that is not bad but for ringsight better avoid flushing what i tutor
Still they are there as an option just in case
Now I am thinking about something. If I put discard synergy in the deck should I also add more discard cards in the 99 too?
static token
You already have a lot of cycle cards tbf
neon gate
You right they do count as discard in themselves
Forgot to include this one [[monument to endurance]]
wild vaultBOT
static token
Monument is a banger
I saw you already know about Currency Converter and Bag of Holding
neon gate
The bag of holding is a bit too niche I think
It messes up the reanimation to boot
The converter is a lot gentler going with the "may"
neon gate
@static token thought of a "fun inclusion". [[Words of waste]]
wild vaultBOT
Enchantment
: The next time you would draw a card this turn, each opponent discards a card instead.
"Terror corrupts order and paralyzes instinct." —Volume III, The Book of Decay
wild vaultBOT
Legendary Creature — God
Menace
Whenever an opponent sacrifices a nontoken permanent or discards a permanent card, you may put that card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
Fear is her one true companion.
4/5
Tergrid's Lantern 
Legendary Artifact
: Target player loses 3 life unless they sacrifice a nonland permanent of their choice or discard a card.
: Untap Tergrid's Lantern.
When Tergrid was a child, her shadow tried to kill her. Only her lantern keeps it at bay.
neon gate
See. Tergrid does not fit
Because it requires 3 pieces
The funny ah ah enchantment instead works with any draw
wild vaultBOT
wild vaultBOT
Sorcery
You may pay rather than pay this spell's mana cost if there are thirteen or more creatures on the battlefield.
Each player sacrifices thirteen creatures of their choice.
"A demonic pact is all fun and games until the bill comes due." —Liliana Vess
static token
Or [[Sudden Edict]] if you wanna make a point against someone lol
wild vaultBOT
static token
KISS is a motto for a reason 🫡
neon gate
Wat?
neon gate
KISS is a motto for a reason 🫡
Wdym?
static token
Oh, KISS -> Keep It Simple, Stupid
neon gate
Oh
True that
We put the big man down
And we pray he stays there
[[shadowgrenge fiend]] is another card i would love to put in here
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
[[shadowgrenge arch]]
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
[[shadowgrange archfiend]]
wild vaultBOT
Creature — Demon
When this creature enters, each opponent sacrifices a creature with the greatest power among creatures they control. You gain life equal to the greatest power among creatures sacrificed this way.
Madness—, Pay 8 life. (If you discard this card, discard it into exile. When you do, cast it for its madness cost or put it into your graveyard.)
8/4
neon gate
Blasted card
static token
O yeah, saw this one in @feral shell 's deck the other day. It slaps!
(Sorry for the ping 😅 didn't think that through)
static token
👀
A good option if you want your deck to get to your armies more consistently could be [[Step Through]]
wild vaultBOT
Sorcery
Return two target creatures to their owners' hands.
Wizardcycling (, Discard this card: Search your library for a Wizard card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.)
Doors open both ways.
static token
You can cycle for 2 to get Saruman
neon gate
A good option if you want your deck to get to your armies more consistently coul...
True that. Will consider more tutors
For now got the deck a facelift
@slow prism still around friend?
neon gate
@static token how does the deck look now?
static token
<@158582427248361472> how does the deck look now?
Hmm... do you have other options over Persist? It's still good, but it can't reanimate 4 of your 6 chonkers
[[Animate Dead]] or [[Necromancy]] maybe?
neon gate
Both in the deck already
neon gate
Hmm... do you have other options over Persist? It's still good, but it can't rea...
[[dance of the dead]] is the other cheap reanimate I know
wild vaultBOT
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature card in a graveyard
When this Aura enters, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with this Aura." Put enchanted creature card onto the battlefield tapped under your control and attach this Aura to it. When this Aura leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.
At the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted creature's controller, that player may pay . If the player does, untap that creature.
neon gate
Not too crazy about upkeep tax but it does get back the effect in full
static token
Yeah, maybe there's just not better options? Persist still gets you many of the big stuff you're discarding for cycle and whatnot
Unless you wanted to tie it to a creature, I guess
neon gate
Dance of the dead steals from other GY too
static token
Or, if you feel spicy, [[Afterlife From the Loam]] perhaps?
wild vaultBOT
Sorcery
Delve (Each card you exile from your graveyard while casting this spell pays for .)
For each player, choose up to one target creature card in that player's graveyard. Put those cards onto the battlefield under your control. They're Zombies in addition to their other types.
neon gate
Triple black pip is a bit heavy
static token
3 black, sure, but it does delve
neon gate
Do you think the mana base can handle it?
neon gate
Do you think I should cut some lands to add others?
Mostly stuff like "less red/blue production for more red/black or black/blue"
static token
Well, you are running counterspell so I could see arguments for some more two color lands, but your mana base seems pretty solid
I think mostly I'd consider adding more blue as a second colour on some lands.
neon gate
I could cut some of the basics for taplands i can grab with cyclers
static token
Might be worth? Probably not, tbh
neon gate
So you say shuffling around the colours the lands produce
neon gate
Might be worth? Probably not, tbh
What about the crucible of worlds?
Between delve, discard, and wheeling sauron the grave will have a lot of lands
static token
What about the crucible of worlds?
Maybe. It can end up feeling useless tho, I'd check if I felt like I was missing land drops
static token
Between delve, discard, and wheeling sauron the grave will have a lot of lands
Delve also uses lands in grave tho, it's the exile from grave, not dredge like on Stinkweed Imp.
neon gate
36 lands+5 of those flippables +6 landcycle i do not think I will miss one before turn 5
neon gate
Delve also uses lands in grave tho, it's the exile from grave, not dredge like o...
Meant Dredge sorry
neon gate
Nothing much
neon gate
hello im here
You still here?
neon gate
@static token @slow prism either of you is up?
neon gate
understandable
neon gate
Well i am but on phone
let me know ewhen and if we can discuss a bit more
slow prism
err, ill list out the cards im not sure of
doesnt neccesarily mean theyre bad
feel free to use or discard whtever i think here
lazotep plating feels weird since the goal isnt really to amass zombies and if youre wanting to use it to protect the commander theres 1 mana cards that do it like slip out the back
whispersilk feels very overkill, the unblockable is kinda pointless because youre usually going to have the biggest creatures if your reanimation can go off
ob nixilis unshakled isnt a particualrly impressive reanimation target, im guessing its here because u own it already
sheoldred whispering one is iroically not suuper insane as a reanimation target because you actually arent running many creatures (i wrote this before i saw the cycling section lol)
not a fan at all of sonic screwdriver
not a fan of stonespeaker crystal
monument to endurance wants more support so it doesnt sometimes do nothing, more cycling/drawdiscard is usually needed for it, this has a fair bit but youd want to lean into it more or cut it imo
i dont see the need for notion thief since your not using it for combo and its taking up a gc while not doing particularly much
teferi master of time is a super strong card but i dont know if it suits this deck
oversold cemetary is terrible here, you want creatures in your yard to reanimate them and you also have so few creatures that a lot of the time its going to do nothing (again i wrote this before seeing the cycling section, but if youre returning a cycling creature to cycle it then thats like, worse than just phyrexian arena cause u pay for it every turn)
ok when i was saying theres not many creatures i didnt see the landcycling category yet, though these arent particularly impressive reanimation targets, i guess it makes sense to support the monument to endurance better but mmm
ur also 41 lands which is high as hell
slow prism
There's my attempt at it
https://archidekt.com/decks/15242064/sauron_necromancer
I added more nonlegendary reanimation targets to better make use of persist
i think youre also fine to use [[exhume]] because in pretty much every case your graveyard will be bigger than the opponents
wild vaultBOT
slow prism
in my list, the cards im least certain on are anger, a bunch of the reanimation targets (you can swap them for really any big guys but i prefer nonlegendary), too greedily too deep might be too expensive who knows, flayer of the hatebound might not be good since im not running living death (its often an otk with living death),
cards i think you should consider from this list the most:
burning rune demon
trumpeting carnosaur
sepulchral primordial
ardyn the usurper
moria scavenger
baleful strix
archfiend of ifnir
incarnation technique
kardur doomscourge
ledger shredder (i actually replaced anger with this)
echo slate
maybe [[buried alive]] & [[entomb]] would work well with your reanimation spells?
echo slate
I also like [[lethal scheme]] the connive could be really good in your deck on top of killing something for free for convoke
wild vaultBOT
Instant
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for or one mana of that creature's color.)
Destroy target creature or planeswalker. Each creature that convoked this spell connives. (Draw a card, then discard a card. If you discarded a nonland card, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.)
neon gate
in my list, the cards im least certain on are anger, a bunch of the reanimation ...
I think we can cut unearth. There is close to no 3 cost creatures
neon gate
I also like [[lethal scheme]] the connive could be really good in your deck on t...
You know what? You are right, this spell is pretty funny
It sucks big time if they sac/bounce/blink/protect via protection or hexproof the target tho
echo slate
It sucks big time if they sac/bounce/blink/protect via protection or hexproof th...
this is the case with basically every removal spell though:)
but this one seems pretty versatile and powerful, taking advantage of your commander and deck‘s strategy
neon gate
Well kinda. Most removal spells do not have the loot effect stapled to it
Illegal target means no conniving
echo slate
I mean fair but you also don‘t waste mana for the spell as you would for most other removal spells
the card is pretty affordable also, I would definitely try it out if I were to play a Sauron deck
neon gate
What is the sauron synergy here btw?
It is a good card do not get me wrong but I do not see it being particularly good with sauron specifically
echo slate
oh I thought of the other Sauron that reanimates lol
my bad
this is what happens when you print 836373 versions of the same character lol
still useful with the amount of reanimation spells you run I think
neon gate
Oh absolutely
I would love to loot 1-4 times while killing something
Also while sauron dark lord might not synergize with it super well it still gives you almost always 2 creatures to convoke as long as he is alive
echo slate
yep the army even is black and can be used by convoking for paying the black mana which is super neat
neon gate
ur also 41 lands which is high as hell
High land but low mana rocks. Survives better the removals
neon gate
Btw i am keeping [[monument to endurance]]
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
No matter what I will play this card with sauron the dark lord
harsh nebula
No matter what I will play this card with sauron the dark lord
By all means you should
neon gate
@quasi elm do you think my list's manabase is ok or should I change something?
quasi elm
<@723652853239119884> do you think my list's manabase is ok or should I change s...
You need more ramp
Some talismans, a signet, maybe a ritual or two
The strength of Sauron in the CZ in getting that hand refill every turn
Dump your hand out, draw a new grip
You need mana to do that
And there's a few rocks that can help with that, my rocks are these
[[Sol Ring]]
[[Arcane Signet]]
[[Talisman of Creativity]]
[[Talisman of Dominance]]
[[Talisman of indulgence]]
[[Relic of Sauron]]
[[Rakdos Signet]]
And [[Inherted Envelope]]
Then we have Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, and Jeska's Will
slow prism
the deck does not need a lot of ramp if its intention is to not hard cast the large creatures
viscid forum
considering that Sauron is looking to be the engine, getting to 6 before turn 6 is important here
neon gate
@viscid forum the end goal would be to bin cards to the GY and resurrect them
But I think I need more looking
Dropping sauron earlier will only have him catch stray bullets I fear
He is pretty large and cannot be targeted but he is going to get hit by a handful of board wipes
quasi elm
Dropping sauron earlier will only have him catch stray bullets I fear
Brother in Christ
He has one of the nastiest Ward Costs in the game
Who the fuck is gonna sac a LEGENDARY to target him that early?
Not me!
harsh nebula
Exactly. In my experience it stays pretty consistently.
harsh nebula
He is pretty large and cannot be targeted but he is going to get hit by a handfu...
You don’t boardwipe at turn 4, and you should aim to have Sauron out by then 😌
And then you’re in Grixis so you’re free to counterspell, or use other effects like [[Not Dead After All]] and related to protect your commander
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
You don’t boardwipe at turn 4, and you should aim to have Sauron out by then 😌
But I don't want the blasted mana rocks
Should I just suck it up and get more mana rocks?
slow prism
Can rely on sauron more with more mana rocks
Or rely on less and aim for resurrect support
Pick a direction and support it with a bunch of cards, either is fine
harsh nebula
In my take I have rituals to get to have Sauron on the board earlier. Seething song, dark ritual, or songs of the damned if you have ways to get creatures in graveyard are great ways to obtain momentary mana boost for a fair price.
slow prism
I like dark ritual a lot, songs of the damned doesnt reeeallly suit too muvh imo
because in order to grt creatures in the yard youre kindra draw discarding them all rsther than mill whoch is faster
neon gate
I just realized something
Sauron's ward has a flaw compared to most of the mana ones
People can take a shot against him if their commander/fancy mana rock would get hit by removal anyway
slow prism
They can
Its not hexproof but its better than ward 2
Just dont rely on it
harsh nebula
But assume that if you’re in the first few turns everyone will want to keep their commander, and if you don’t mess with theirs and somebody else does, that someone’s probably going to take the removal. It’s not the first move I’d consider to react to a swords 🗡️ on my commander with a removal of yours, which would get me down one removal and one commander against who removed it…
Unless you are completely dominating the table in which case you deserved it and they would have sacked their commander anyways
neon gate
Can rely on sauron more with more mana rocks
Or rely on less and aim for resurr...
I'd like to rely on the big guy a bit more
On that note is this guy worth it?
I am also cutting the blasted [[golgari thug]]
wild vaultBOT
neon gate
The obligatory on death trigger is ass here
static token
This card is capable of Heinous nonsense.
slow prism
Warren soultrader is an extremely good card but youre not an aristocrats deck and u dont have many things u want to actually sac
static token
Honestly, if you wanna woodchipper your army maybe a [[Pitiless Plunderer]] ?
wild vaultBOT
Creature — Human Pirate
Whenever another creature you control dies, create a Treasure token. (It's an artifact with ", Sacrifice this token: Add one mana of any color.")
"Shame to let good gold go to the grave."
1/4
neon gate
See that is a payoff for the woodchipping but only if the spultrader is on the field already
Otherwise there are no decent sac outlets for it
neon gate
Honestly, if you wanna woodchipper your army maybe a [[Pitiless Plunderer]] ?
The pityless is a payoff. Before him I would need like 3-4 extra sac outlets
Bare minimum
neon gate
Explain
static token
Get around my Sauron's ward cost by boardwiping? Neat, but now I have the treasures to pay for commander tax
Block my army? It's coming back, and I'm getting treasures too...
It's a value engine on board - yes it can be a combo piece to do all kinds of heinous shit, but as a baseline value engine it's actually just a good card
neon gate
Kinda. A value engine is as good as the amount of gas you can provide
static token
Not sure I'd recommend it necessarily since you're still only doing armies and not "here's 400 individual 2/2 zombies"
neon gate
As of now I produce way too few cards for it
static token
As of now I produce way too few cards for it
I think this is kinda true in general. I don't think your deck is leaning anywhere particularly saccy or generating tons of creatures. You're in the go-mid but most go-tall pile.
So Aristocrat effects just aren't going to be producing as much value for you
neon gate
Ye. I brought out soultrader only cause he has a nice ramp payoff for the army
Overall it is usually better to get 3-4 treasures than forcing an opponent to use a removal for the army
static token
Hmm...
neon gate
But it is not that impactful