#Help me fix my friend fix their Betor deck

265 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

spice dagger
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This is the list, I feel like this deck in paper is very strong. It has GC, it has the strong black cards, some strong green cards but my friend fails to win every time we play. Be it cuz he incurs the ire of the aggro player, be it cuz they stumble, or because they dont execute their gameplan. I have been trying my best, but in the last month he hasnt won once. I think he is getting salty about it.

This is the current list

https://archidekt.com/decks/12956835/copy_of_betor_108

Ps He doesnt always follow my advice and the list might change over time (as they change it), I will also include a copy of the list at time of posting

https://archidekt.com/decks/12946706/copy_of_betor_107

Old List
https://archidekt.com/decks/12743928

Archidekt
Copy of - Betor 1.0.8 • (Abzan Commander deck) • Archidekt

Betor, Ancestor's Voice - Commander deck

(1) Commander • (12) Card Advantage • (5) Creature • (33) Land • (8) Protection • (17) Ramp • (4) Recursion • (9) Removal • (1) Utility • (2) Wipe

Archidekt
Betor 1.0.8 • (Abzan Commander deck) • Archidekt

Betor, Ancestor's Voice - Commander deck

(1) Commander • (11) Card Advantage • (4) Counters • (1) Drain • (3) End: Life-Drain • (35) Land • (4) Lifegain • (1) Mill • (4) Protection • (15) Ramp • (4) Recursion • (8) Removal • (7) Utility • (2) Wipe

dim wave
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It looks like you're focussing more on the lifeloss than the lifegain. I'd put a little bit more life gain in, and remove the counter synergies - the counter theme is cute, but isn't really in line with what youre deck's trying to do.

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Particularly Lathiel is rather win-morish, unless I've missed something

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So is the Faithmender.

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The other factor is:
How are they playing the deck, and what sort of decks are they playing against. It might be the case where they've escalated their power level up the wall, and now they have a very threatening combo deck that must be answered, so naturally they get targetted.

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Also, I'm pretty sure Sidisi is bad.

crimson star
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It also might just be a piloting or pod power level problem than an actual deck problem

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Overall it has a lot of hall marks of beginner level deck building

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Lots of slots dedicated to narrow cards dedicated to a singular function

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Which can be fine if playing against a lot of other beginners, but will struggle to get its game plan going

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When you run so many narrow cards, a lot of the time you’ll draw the wrong ratios of cards for different parts of the game plan and you’ll stumble a lot

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I agree mekkis, there’s too many sub themes that the deck is trying to execute

spice dagger
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But what would you call narrow cards?

crimson star
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rhox is one

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same with lathiel

spice dagger
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good some of the first things I cut

crimson star
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it's fine to have multiple sub themes, but in that case you should have way more enablers than payoffs

spice dagger
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Are the ramp/card Adv/Land ratios fine?

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I feel like 16 pieces of ramp is a bith much

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For the pod powerlevel, I think its around 2/3

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And they have the most expensive deck for sure

crimson star
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yeah i was about to say. for how expensive it is it's not actually that functional

spice dagger
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I was playing a 30$ teysa from tomer video last night

crimson star
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tomer is a good deck builder and focuses on synergy

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synergy beats raw power cards a lot of the time

dim wave
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It feels like the deck needs to be targetted, because if left to its own devices, it'll just win out of nowhere. Is that what's happening?

spice dagger
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I can sum up last game turns I think

crimson star
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it has the exquisite blood/sang bond combo

spice dagger
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I have the cocatrice replay

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BRB

crimson star
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it's not really a betor deck at that point, just a bad combo deck

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i feel like the deck also assumes too much that betor will always be out

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and is running kinda bad cards to trigger one of the conditions

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like early game if you play dark tutelage/bob/etc, you just kill yourself and don't get any real payoff

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and you just overpaid for slow card draw

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to that end, you don't even have great reanimation targets

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feed the swarm is an objectively bad card when you have access to green and white, just because betor gives you a way to benefit from the life loss doesn't make it a good card

dim wave
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Greed is just bad.

crimson star
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so yeah the recurring theme i'm seeing is playing bad cards for the sake of "synergy"

spice dagger
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Ok

crimson star
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but you're not even guaranteed to have the synergy up

spice dagger
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So they ramped early, played an arena, removed an aggro commander, and casted theird commander in the first 5 turns

crimson star
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was the aggro commander attacking them

spice dagger
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Then they farewelled on 6 (choosing badly) to leave creatures in play

crimson star
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was the aggro commander generating value like tokens etc

spice dagger
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[[otharri]]

pure arrowBOT
crimson star
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mm ok that's scary enough to remove i guess

spice dagger
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oh it is

crimson star
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still, were they the one being attacked by it

spice dagger
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There was a [[Warleaders call]] on the field

pure arrowBOT
dim wave
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If they were planning on Farewelling on 6, why cast on 5?

crimson star
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goblin bombardment effects kinda suck unless you combo them

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based on these logs it really seems like poor threat assessment, planning, etc

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weak piloting in general

spice dagger
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They are new to the game tbf

spice dagger
crimson star
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i would simplify the deck or even try a different commander honestly

spice dagger
crimson star
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yes that one

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tremors sucks

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(unless you combo)

spice dagger
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In otharri is kinda strong

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At bracket 3

crimson star
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people just don't run enough wipes

spice dagger
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Pinging everybody for around 5 every turn is good

dim wave
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They need to decide if they're playing a Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond combo deck, or working to actually use Betor.

crimson star
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when you advertise you have an infinite in your deck you draw a ton of hate

spice dagger
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Is dismember good enough?

dim wave
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Probably.

crimson star
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it's cute, but single target creature only removal is vastly overrated

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i would run it for synergy

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but it's not an amazing card

dim wave
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I'd rather ditch four pieces of single-target removal for four additional boardwipes.

spice dagger
crimson star
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honestly this is just a big jank pile at this point

spice dagger
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The list I am working on sending them

crimson star
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i can't even find a coherent theme

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it's a bracket 2 deck with a pile of bracket 3/4 cards shoved in

spice dagger
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I tried to tell them what was bad IMO, but Abzan is so far out of my comfort zone

crimson star
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i might consider rebuilding from scratch honestly

dim wave
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It's something I see with a lot of newer deckbuilders. They try to improve their decks by throwing money at the problem.

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And - to an extent - it does work.

crimson star
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yes raw power works up to a certain point

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but it's also not helped that they're new so they're probably also not using their cards effectively

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and again, just running tons of bad cards with poor synergy

dim wave
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At this point, the deck looks like you took a [[Meren]] deck and made it worse.

pure arrowBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/tdc/297/meren-of-clan-nel-toth

Meren of Clan Nel Toth <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manab:292901508872273920><:manag:292901508654301185>

Legendary Creature — Human Shaman
Whenever another creature you control dies, you get an experience counter.
At the beginning of your end step, choose target creature card in your graveyard. If that card's mana value is less than or equal to the number of experience counters you have, return it to the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand.
3/4

crimson star
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i would never run feed the swarm in a deck that has access to green and white

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that card alone tells me a lot about their deck building approach

dim wave
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To Be Fair, it does find itself in quite a few precons.

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I mean, the MH3 simic precon has HARMONIZE in it!

crimson star
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this list is far enough from the precon lol

spice dagger
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Is harmonize bad?

crimson star
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harmonize is a better card than feed lol

spice dagger
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No way

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Yeah

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Ok

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No no

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I agree

crimson star
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i still wouldn't run harmonize in most decks

dim wave
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If you're playing blue, you have so many better options.

spice dagger
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really?

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I am a blue player

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4 mana draw 3 seems juicy

crimson star
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it's just very outdated

dim wave
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And you'd run a colour-shifted [[Concentrate]]?

pure arrowBOT
spice dagger
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I would consider it

crimson star
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nahhhhhh

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sorcery speed draw 3?

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we have so many better ways now

spice dagger
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I run lorien

dim wave
spice dagger
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WHich is miles better

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mostly cuz I almost never cast it

crimson star
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well harmonize is a green card

dim wave
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true, but we're talking about a simic precon.

crimson star
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true

spice dagger
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Ok

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so while I have you 2 here

dim wave
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regardless. Consider replacing the general with Meren.

crimson star
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yeah i was about to say, pick a more one dimensional commander

tight kestrel
dim wave
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And they appear to have forgotten that Path of Ancestry exists. So many deckbuilders do.

crimson star
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and if you stick with betor, focus on a singular theme and only put good cards in it lol

tight kestrel
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...

spice dagger
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If I have to recap what you told me:
Less monodimensional cards
more focus on a single aspect (reanimate seems the strongest?)
Ditch cards that are bad but have synergy

spice dagger
crimson star
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honestly the hard part is betor asks you to build with 4 themes lol

spice dagger
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From now on

crimson star
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yeah that advice alone isn't useful of course because we need to dive deeper and explain what is good and bad and why

dim wave
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Also, I can't actually see much relevant lifegain in that deck.

crimson star
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but i would either pick life loss/renanimation or life again and pp counters

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focus purely on that theme first

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then on a second pass, look up cards that can pull extra duty

dim wave
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(relevant as in, "likely to actually trigger in your turn")

spice dagger
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Reanimation I understand more (I hope I am also newish to edh)

dim wave
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(also, +1/+1 counters being put on another creature in the end step is a lot of hoops to jump through).

tight kestrel
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The only way to do both themes at the same time is to do like a [[wall of blood]] combo list

pure arrowBOT
spice dagger
dim wave
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I mean, I really do like the synergy between Children of Korlis and self-life-loss

spice dagger
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I might also just add meren to the list

dim wave
tight kestrel
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Or have somewhere for the counters to go

dim wave
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So, you need to:

  • Have your commander out
  • Have a second creature that you want to turn sideways out
  • Gain life in your turn

it's a lot of hoops to jump through for a relatively minor reward.

spice dagger
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Beledros has to be in here right?

crimson star
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you also don't really have big reanim targets, so i'd trim the things that just chunk your life for no reason

spice dagger
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I can add big reanim targets though

crimson star
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ok sure, but reorient the deck around that instead

spice dagger
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I will!

crimson star
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reanimator decks inherently have the problem of also getting the targets into the bin

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which takes up slots etc

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honestly betor is just a really challenging commander to build around and pilot, esp for a new player

dim wave
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Also, something like [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] is the kind of lifegain you'd be looking for.

pure arrowBOT
dim wave
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(money permitting)

spice dagger
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Ahaha

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We play with budget

crimson star
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they're cockatrice, money is no issue it seems lol

spice dagger
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He doesnt

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I will ask again, 15 ramp is good enough?

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is it too much?

crimson star
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i'll get to that after i cut the bad stuff

dim wave
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You have too much basic-search if you're only running three basics

spice dagger
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I am running 12?

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They are

dim wave
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Oh, that's how it's laid out. My bad.

spice dagger
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I will edit the original post

tight kestrel
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Or are you just looking for the pests?

spice dagger
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but the pests arent bad

tight kestrel
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[[valentin, dean]]

pure arrowBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/stx/161/valentin-dean-of-the-vein-lisette-dean-of-the-root

Valentin, Dean of the Vein <:manab:292901508872273920>

Legendary Creature — Vampire Warlock
Menace, lifelink
If a nontoken creature an opponent controls would die, exile it instead. When you do, you may pay mana2. If you do, create a 1/1 black and green Pest creature token with "When this token dies, you gain 1 life."
1/1

Lisette, Dean of the Root mana2managmanag
Legendary Creature — Human Druid
Whenever you gain life, you may pay mana1. If you do, put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control and those creatures gain trample until end of turn.
"Life is as fleeting as it is vibrant. Embrace the brief blessing of a flower before it withers."
4/4

crimson star
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ok going through the list of cards to cut because bad

dark tutelage/dark confidant/darkstar augur - slow draw and randomly nukes you
lathiel - limited life gain, win more card
archangel of thune - limited life gain, not really a go wide deck
inspiring call - probably challenging to consistently get coutners on the creatures you care about (including betor)
eerie interlude - i guess this is weird protection, but you don't really have good etbs to really combo this with
talisman - rocks should be replaced with land ramp if you can help it
elves of deep shadow - dorks are kinda bad and the life loss "synergy" isn't worth while. bop and deathrite kinda bad as well with no additional synergy, but i guess deathrite has a tiny bit of utility
into the north/rampant growth - kind of outdated ramp spells, there are better options now and on creatures that can be reanimated. honestly same for cultivate/kodamas
world shaper - feel kinda random here, though ironically this is the first renimation enabler in the list that actually gets cards into the bin
feed the swarm - sorcery speed single target removal sucks, esp when you have better options in green/white
crashing drawbridge: haste is cool i guess, but you don't really have big stuff to haste out
staff: this is ok, but probably not worth the life loss
kami of whispered hopes: optimistic given how limited the life gain/pp counter synergy is
combo section: just random pieces that mostly do nothing but draw table hate and then 1% of the time win you the game out of no where

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i would pick 1 main theme and then also build the deck assuming betor isn't on the field

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he's a 5 drop with 0 protection

tight kestrel
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Why are mana dorks bad?

crimson star
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without extra synergy, they just die to board wipes

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so instead of losing only your threats, you also lose your mana

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i only like them in creature synergy decks

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ie if i want to play [[beast whisperer]], dorks are fine

pure arrowBOT
dim wave
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Or decks that really need to accelerate fast

crimson star
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this is not one of theme

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this wants to grind people out with renimation

spice dagger
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2 mana ramp 1 seemed good to me (Into the north rampant growth etc)

crimson star
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unless it wants to go the turbo big stuff renaimation targets

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but then betor is a poor fit since he's a 5 mana commander

tight kestrel
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fwiw from a lore angle Betor is a collection of spirits and uses they

crimson star
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just play a 4 mana renaimation spell at that point lol

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ok they

spice dagger
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Like a valgavoth

crimson star
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i'm just not sure betor is the deck you want to do that with

spice dagger
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Fair enough, so more death by a thousand accursed marauders?

crimson star
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betor feels like the grindy small renimation list like karador

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but with extra steps

tight kestrel
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The card that feels like the best card for Betor just by read for the consistent build is [[sapling of colfenor]]

pure arrowBOT
spice dagger
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Buried alive doesnt seems bad

dim wave
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Entomb is better

spice dagger
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I can run both

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I also am aiming at bracket 3

tight kestrel
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I'd run [[lively dirge]] over buried alive for flexibility.

pure arrowBOT
dim wave
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Is changing the general an option?

spice dagger
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For now no

tight kestrel
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Suggesting someone change the commander of a deck always feels bad.

spice dagger
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is [[call of the ring]] good in this list?

pure arrowBOT
dim wave
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It's a phyrexian arena that requires you to have a creature out

spice dagger
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yeah

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The having a creature out is the issue

dim wave
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it's not horrible, and I've played it in some of my decks.

tight kestrel
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It's better when you have some mechanism for actively selecting a ring bearer more than once a turn

dim wave
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It also requires you to carry The Ring in your deckbox, which is a tiny bit annoying.

tight kestrel
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There's actually probably an interesting deck with Betor and ring tempts cards.

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But that's it's own separate deck

spice dagger
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I am working on fixing the deck as it is

tight kestrel
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Yeah

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That was my point

spice dagger
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Is [[celestine, the living saint]] good in this list?

pure arrowBOT
spice dagger
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It kind does betor things but differently

crimson star
crimson star
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naturally you'll want some life gain anyway to offset the life loss

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so it's probably fine?

tight kestrel
crimson star
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it's like $12 now

tight kestrel
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Sigh

crimson star
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[[$sapling of colfenor]]

pure arrowBOT
tight kestrel
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sighs in we can't have nice things anymore

crimson star
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perhaps one strategy would be literally copy paste a karador list and within that look for cards that naturally do life gain and loss and shift the cards that aren't in that direction

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for example [[siege rhino]] and [[skirmish rhino]] are decent little life gainers and are solid reanimation targets

pure arrowBOT
crimson star
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the other thing that's sorely missing from the list is things to chuck thing into the bin

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buried alive/entomb/dirge are good, but i'd add ways to do it on creatures

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dirge fits the best imo since you're mostly reanimating small medium stuff

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[[gravebreaker lamia]] could be interesting since it entombs a card and has life gain to support that side of betor

pure arrowBOT
crimson star
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basically any card that can fulfil 2+ roles in the deck are worth considering

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[[priest of fell rites]] can sorta double reanimate

pure arrowBOT
crimson star
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[[nethroi, apex]] fits a lot roles here, and is just a cool card

pure arrowBOT
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https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/163/nethroi-apex-of-death

Nethroi, Apex of Death <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manab:292901508872273920><:manag:292901508654301185>

Legendary Creature — Cat Nightmare Beast
Mutate mana4managwmanabmanab (If you cast this spell for its mutate cost, put it over or under target non-Human creature you own. They mutate into the creature on top plus all abilities from under it.)
Deathtouch, lifelink
Whenever this creature mutates, return any number of target creature cards with total power 10 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
5/5

crimson star
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[[mire triton]] fills the yard and gains life

pure arrowBOT
crimson star
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you might want to look into rad coutners as well

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since they lose life and also fill the yard

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[[starving revenant]] seems great

pure arrowBOT
crimson star