#(11-3-23) How do you feel about the Naga/Rakshasa/Kindred/Umbra change? Be respectful.

120 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

trail edge
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Thought I might as well centralize in one place.

empty widget
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I'm pretty excited about it. More snakes for snake typal. And more respect for various cultures. Also, I like that the Umbra change, like the Naga/snake one, feels more consistent

vale mantle
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reiterating this stance from another server

supple cove
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That’s how I feel as well

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All I have to do is remember a few different words? Easy

desert tusk
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All genuinely positive changes - Kindred being my favourite. Typal just felt...too "game keywordy" (if that makes sense)

elder dome
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All seem sensible enough

tepid aurora
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I hate all of it to different degrees. I don't like making naga snake not even snake humans it just feels wrong

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Also wait they also changed rakshasa?

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Nooooo my cat demons

vale mantle
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not any of the card names, just making them no longer cats

tepid aurora
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😭

vale mantle
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tough cookies

empty widget
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Not prior to Gygax they weren't

tepid aurora
tepid aurora
vale mantle
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We are in a world influenced by Gygax

elder dome
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Rakshasa are shapeshifting demons from Hindu mythology, they are nothing like they are depicted in D&D and Hinduism is still a major religion. D&D made a mockery of a part of that part of the religion and this is a tiny step reverting that.

tepid aurora
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It feels idiotic because the entire basis really comes off as "tribal = indigenous Americans = barbaric" which is not even close to accurate.

It's used for the tribes of Israel, it's used for my ancestors long ago with Germany and Ireland not only my ancestors that were already here. Tribal being removed comes off as virtue signaling more than actually being concerned about if it is really a problem to me.

empty widget
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As Carson pointed out in another channel, the tribal v typal v kindred thing is a much more nuanced conversation.

elder dome
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The first nations people in the US have indicated for a long time they do not like the use of the word tribal. I think that particular decision is quite americentric but I respect that it makes it more approachable for those peoples in North America.

tepid aurora
elder dome
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They took no influence from the Hindu myths, they just took the name and appended it to something they created

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Turning cultures you don't understand in to entertainment is not cool, the fact that it was done 40 years ago does not make it any more okay,

vale mantle
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and we have an actual south Asian person in Shivam saying this is a good thing. so is it relevant that a self-described German and Irish descendant isn’t a fan

tepid aurora
tepid aurora
elder dome
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I am told by people from NA that the word tribal has come to be harmful to the peoples of that region, that's all I need to say we should drop it from the game where those peoples may be hurt. You can still use the word Tribe to refer to the groups that are comfortable with or embrace that identity in other contexts

sharp otter
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I think it’s unnecessary.

tepid aurora
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I do question how my German and Irish ancestry somehow discounts my feelings over the word tribal when my ancestors on all sides were in tribes if I stick to my matrilineal line I am very quickly back to strong Native American roots and displacement. It is no more or less relevant than my German side from my father or my Irish side from both of them. To discount the opinions of people whose ancestors were in tribes because they were the "wrong tribes" does come off as quite offensive personally.

sharp otter
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I’m a descent of native Americans, and “tribe” doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I think it’s nice to have my ancestors represented through use of the word tribe.

elder dome
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You saying "I am fine with Tribe to describe me" does not take away even slightly from other people saying that it does bother them. Its good that you are happy with the word, but others are not.

sharp otter
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“Tribe” isn’t offensive, it’s just a name for a kind of civilization.

sharp otter
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She garnered enough attention on Twitter to inform Wizards of it. All of this started with a singular person.

elder dome
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I am gonna need you to prove that, as the slightest search turns up hundreds of pages and thousands of people talking about the word tribe being problematic in contexts nothing to do with WotC

empty widget
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I have seen plenty of First Nations people who take issue with the usage of the word.

I can't speak on that topic with firsthand knowledge or experience, as I've never taken the steps to look into my mom's claim that we're of indigenous descent, but what I can speak on is that as a trans person, there are plenty of spaces where within our communities, trans people disagree on whether one word or another is problematic or not. And both sides typically have their good reasons for those views.

vale mantle
tepid aurora
vale mantle
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The tribal discussion is more nuanced as has been stated so I will stay out of that and let people who do identify with being “tribal” speak first

tepid aurora
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I still find it really weird that they didn't make naga snake spirits or snake people or something... Just snakes

empty widget
tepid aurora
minor nova
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Realistically it changes my life 0%. So..yeah.

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Hadn't actually heard the news till seeing this discussion

tepid aurora
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I will say it does kinda give me a bit of reminder about the discussions over is oriental offensive with Oriental Adventures.

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Oriental in regards to Oriental rugs isn't considered offensive and calling people Oriental is considered offensive... But beyond that most people aren't sure where the line is that it becomes a problem.

livid frost
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I see benefit and 0 downside to the tribal change

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It doesn't matter your actual associations with the word; better to avoid the whole thing. Is anyone hurt by losing it?

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If some people find the usage of the word harmful, and other people don't... Is there anyone who removing that language is harmful to?

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In terms of Rakshasa, it makes sense to me that the term was taken from that culture and then entirely misused. I think it's interesting that they opted for a look and type change over a name change.

tepid aurora
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There isn't any one word for Native Americans that doesn't bother a segment to a degree. There are some terms that are more widely accepted than others. Generally everyone tries to give the benefit of the doubt though that people are acting in good faith over such things though.

livid frost
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Just feels weird to be bothered by other people... Trying not to bother people?

minor nova
mortal sluice
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I just...find it equal parts fascinating and sad how angry some people get about some one else changing something inconsequential to make a third party less unhappy.

And I think the complete lack of reaction around Umbra really sells it.
Cos it's not minor change people don't like, it's WoTC taking steps to appeal to a part of the customer base they aren't in.

soft plover
onyx breachBOT
quiet leaf
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Could we get a link/ref in the header about the actual changes, I'm not sure about what is changed, though I doubt it'll change much my playing experience.

supple cove
quiet leaf
cinder gust
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am I the only one who thinks the Naga change was purely mechanical? I think it's a case of "we can no longer find any gameplay reason to keep these cards apart, collapse the smaller creature type"

vale mantle
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naga are also an important thing in multiple Asian religions

livid frost
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The naga thing seems prolly more of a functional change that they felt still aligned with this set of changes

tepid aurora
tepid aurora
livid frost
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It seems like a pretty basic change tho. Like, one of these terms is steeped in complex history and modern controversy, and the other isn't. I'm still not seeing the harm in swapping.

tepid aurora
tepid aurora
tepid aurora
livid frost
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Okay, that's what I was starting to figure. The change isn't your issue, just the discussion around the term?

elder dome
tepid aurora
livid frost
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on another note, I wonder if the Rakshasa change will also apply to future D&D products

tepid aurora
livid frost
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I still kinda hope they find a new name and keep a cat/tiger demon in there somewhere

supple cove
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The tribal issue is a complicated topic, but I believe wotc folks when they say their cultural consultants (?) told them to change it for sensitivity reasons

tepid aurora
supple cove
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I know that plenty of Native American nations actively embrace the term “tribe,” but I also know that it does bother some folks and some groups (to whom it may have been applied in the past)

tepid aurora
elder dome
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But no-one here is saying its offensive to everyone.
We are saying it is offensive to those people whom it bothers, and that is more than enough reason to not use it

supple cove
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Enough people that wotc trusts spoke up about it that was worth changing for them

tepid aurora
elder dome
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So why are you arguing about it? If you accept that it is offensive to some people, and that that is good enough reason to not use the term, and no-one here is expressing any other opinion, then what is the problem you have that is worth bringing up to this group of people here?

empty widget
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Some people enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. 🤷

tepid aurora
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People have said it's offensive to push people to say typal instead during discussions before which is where it bothers me because it treats tribal like it's a bad word to be avoided. Meanwhile I've not seen anyone that is personally bothered by it here instead it has been people saying others said it bothers them but multiple people myself included saying we aren't bothered by it.

trail edge
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Well this thread went about how I expected. At least people were polite to each other.

livid frost
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It had to happen

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Better here than spread across the other channels

minor nova
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Oh it's still going to pop up at least once a week, someone randomly airdropping an entirely unsolicited opinion on the matter simply to stir up the masses.

soft ivy
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Tbh hound to dog typing is all this is at the end of the day. What matters at the end of it all, is the bonds we make and experience though this game

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My 2 cents at least

tepid aurora
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Like naga to snakes is one I'm a lil bothered with because snakes just got a lot of cards now but also just snake seems weird... But ultimately it's not like we haven't had beast for years which shouldn't be one

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Overall it's mostly whatever... Because it's not like the playerbase is going to embrace the change overnight

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At FNM there were a lot of brief discussions about the changes basically amounting to people being confused about why, "it was probably a PR thing", discussing snake impact

hushed rock
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I dunno why they changed nagas to snakes as there is a distinguishable difference between the two. I understand that nagas can be in entirely snake form but that’s not often how they depicted. Just seems like a weird change for almost no reason.

The rest I don’t really have an opinion on.

cinder gust
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guess they couldn't mechanically support keeping Naga separate from Snake anymore, so gameplay issues forced Naga to be subsumed

sharp imp
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It's as if they took every Native American belief structure, lumped then altogether, and declared it a unified religion.

grand orbit
sharp imp
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Yeah, the only thing worse than little to no education on it was the colonialism cliff notes which misrepresented it in every shape and form. Which even on a college level has often ignored the direct sources.

grand orbit
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At least these days there's more attention for the colonialism issues which helps with said education.

sharp imp
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We just you know, continuing to learn, adjust, and course correct. Generation A is gonna have hopefully a better understanding and more accurate representation of these things. That's all we can really do.

grand orbit
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That's all there is to it. It's a slow process and sometimes it's hard to get 'racist' (using the term liberally here) habits out of people because it was the norm for so long. To that end I hope people don't immediately jump on folks making small mistakes or using the wrong word, especially since there's also the multilingual issue with it.

The way WOTC goes about it also reminds me a bit about how Sid Meier's Civilization went. In 4, you had "The Native Americans" led by Sitting Bull, which had Totem Poles and Dog Soldiers. Obviously a terrible representation. For 5, they actually worked together with representatives of the people they ended up representing in game (The Pueblo didn't want to be included) and in 6 they went so far as to get the people to do the music parts as well - though even that one wasn't without controversy. It's a gradual change that not everyone will like.

cinder gust
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something I saw online: had Wizards stuck to the source material and not the D&D thing, [[Tombstalker]] might have gotten that KTK reprint instead of just getting kicked off the card file because it's not a Cat

onyx breachBOT
empty widget
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?

vale mantle
cinder gust
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there are, but that was forced onto them by Standard playtesters. Tombstalker was taken off much earlier (while building the Limited environment) solely due to not being a Cat

tepid aurora
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Originally it's inspiration in D&D was a combination of the association of tigers and sorcery for early art and the depiction from Kolchak: Night Stalker for the actual creature. It didn't call them cats or anything. The closest was saying they often take humanoid forms with beastial traits primarily of tigers and apes.... But the art used a tiger like appearance and that's what stuck.

hallow granite
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Sadly a downgrade for [[ophiomancer]]. Overall I'm rather indifferent about these changes though, nothing really important.

onyx breachBOT
tepid aurora
grand orbit