7+X-Bag in TL

[grand topaz]

You open a TAWS/TAWS U and it's always LST if it's not stick (or MS2 sometimes)

Variability would provide more variety

https://youtu.be/lpHISx5vJ7U?si=KymcWkDpPkb_Lc-n this video kinda shows the S+ is stickspin on BOTH sides, overtaken by 4 pps LST with, some inf-ds I guess

[loud hazel]

the actual video mostly talks about a certain controversial infinite combo called wobbling that many IC's mains used to get wins on more experienced opponents

[cursive hatch]

Actually I don't care how 7+X affects the rankings or if it makes the game fairer. I just play, I just happen to win or lose or be at whatever rank. But 7+X feels fresh to play as I have subconsciously memorized patterns for most 7-bag piece sequences.

[loud hazel]

the same thing as the "quick tr" openers allow you to gain

also you're at the same time arguing that openers make people play "seemingly less boring than they are" and that openers are boring?

[grand topaz]

They make a C-spin via repetition

The board makes you think it's cool when it's literally step by step guide in a external wiki

People are afraid that if openers are taken from them, they can't make any more cool shapes anymore... Even tho they can if they actually did it

[loud hazel]

i dont see any issues with step by step guides or external wikis, many games use those

like how in terraria you look up a guide on how to fight a certain boss or how to find them in the first place

or how in fighting games you look up true combos or techniques to perform

because lets be real, no person can figure out everything in a game as complex as tetris (or any other game) on their own

[loud hazel]

no? some people here myself included argue that openers are a nice way to transition into freestyle midgame

while in 7+x unless youre really skilled you have to skim a lot to get to the same place in the midgame

and isnt the whole point of 7+x to make the game more accessible to less skilled people

[loud hazel]

like dont tell me people below like mid U can find this (in reasonable time) in case their first bag screws them over with rng

you just kinda cheese until you get to a good stack

[grand topaz]

sure, it's nice that there's a reference to shapes like impeldown, imperial cross, Dt cannon, bt cannon, c-spin, Dt cannon 2, yogsothoth etc the problem is having an exact sequence people can do pretty much every single game that wins at every single rank, the game effectively rewarding memorization of exact pre-set piece sequences instead of trying to solve something out of what you get

[grand topaz]

7+X immediately transitions to midgame with a fully flat board. Can barely be nicer than that

[loud hazel]

every single rank?

[grand topaz]

There's extended in B-

It's actually very sad

[loud hazel]

i meant about the winning part

from my experience opener gaming becomes mostly irrelevant starting from high ss/low u

[loud hazel]

the additional pieces of 7+x mess up with your general midgame feeling

[grand topaz]

I encounter 3.8 pps SDPC/DPC into 2 pps inf-ds

Very commonly

[grand topaz]

also a cool dono but they don't need to find it if they don't see it, that's part of the nice variety that 7+X provides

Some people see different things instead repeating the exact same sequences out of your exact same, effectively 5 presets

This is just how midgame works

[loud hazel]

ive played against many opener mains, its quite easy to counter them so i have barely any problems dealing with them, just at lower pps than yours

for me it has been as simple as tank the spike -> do the attack from your opener + use the garbo you just accepted

or do you simply refuse to do any openers

[grand topaz]

If they get the SDPC it's tricky to tank before the DPC followup

[grand topaz]

I also do them but I'd be happy to see them gone

It's kinda cringe to win with extended or stick lmao

[loud hazel]

nah

you play to win the game

[grand topaz]

Indeed

[loud hazel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

[grand topaz]

I just dislike the method

I'm literally re-executing the same pattern devised by someone else step by step

That's barely my achievement if at all. This isn't food

It's a puzzle game

In theory

[loud hazel]

https://harddrop.com/wiki/Interchangeable_Shapes

not step by step but

[winged tartan]

well.....puzzles have solutions

[loud hazel]

pretty close

from my experience i was barely utilizing any of those until i heard about them in a guide

tetris is literally all about patterns

if someone finds a nice pattern, why wouldnt you use it

[loud hazel]

many things in our lives arent our achievements and there is nothing wrong with that

you build your own achievements of top of others that people did before you

[grand topaz]

Ok but a step-by-step guide that works every time you get early O??

For 28 pieces ahead?

It makes the game stale

[loud hazel]

something like this exists in many games other than modern tetris

look at any fighting game out there

however just like in tetrio, you cant win by simply doing one combo over and over again

in low ranks, yeah, but if you want to get actually good

youll need to know way more than a couple input sequences

[grand topaz]

If 7+X happens it'll prove that the game was not intended to reward the same shape executed 4 pps for a quick kill all the way up to low X

[winged tartan]

yeah i mean have you seen the tetris DS championships alexey attended in like 2007? that was the "intended experience" with 7bag
today is a far far cry from those simple days, and i'm not saying that's a bad thing, but if you want to talk about intentions over and over i'm not sure where that's getting anyone

[grand topaz]

Maybe kuroshiki should have picked Mr t-spin into Dt :p

[loud hazel]

nah this is reaching

[grand topaz]

I should watch this

[grand topaz]

no next queue?

[winged tartan]

this was a spectating point of view, obviously
tetris DS had next queue (6 pieces in fact) and holding and tspins and 7bag

[grand topaz]

I see

[loud hazel]

btw as an avid ssbm fan the whole "developer intention" argument is bullshit af. nobody at nintendo intended for the game to be played competitively and yet it became one of the most watched esports out there, later when smash brawl was released they removed any piece of advanced tech from melee and after a couple of years nobody cared about brawl, in fact, a mod of the game with all the tech added back there became more popular than the actual game

just a quick example

[grand topaz]

Whatever Osk decides will be the developer intention of tetrio

[winged tartan]

well nintendo of the Wii era was a networking nomad and their actions of the MLG era are beyond inexplicable to everyone lol

[loud hazel]

yeah true

[grand topaz]

Although I don't think the comparison is fully equal. Tetrio would still keep advanced t-spin setups + it would be even more exciting to see them.

[lament elm]

are you guys still saying arguing about openers' OP strength even from U rank and upwards

i thought we were trying to solve the opener in the low ranks

[loud hazel]

no, im not saying that

im trying to argue against that

[lament elm]

sorry, my poor choice of words

[loud hazel]

it seems like zhungamer tries to say so

but idk

[signal crypt]

opener barely does anything to you if you have 2 braincells devoted into a little defense

the issue is low rank because they dont understand the counter to the opener

[lament elm]

Deleting opener phase with 7+X is imo, too destructive of an action ye

[grand topaz]

It would finally make tetrio be about midgame

[lament elm]

For now, just test other alternatives of 7+X for a few days

[fierce hatch]

why is it established that 7+x completely deletes openers?

[loud hazel]

tetrio is already about midgame

[loud hazel]

any tetris game is

[winged tartan]

i know it was just 24 hours, but that's what the TL experiment concluded with

there's a ridiculously high amount of bags for the first bag now that openers really can't be anything but vague concepts like TKI

[fierce hatch]

are we talking about openers as in memoirsed patterns

or rough concepts that have consistent output damage

[grand topaz]

interestingly, you can still make openers in 7+x, it's just that you can't do the "common ones"

[winged tartan]

literally start to end follow https://four.lol/openers/sd-pc/#stickspin and win

[fierce hatch]

i messed around with 7+x on custom today, you can pretty consistently still get t-spins and whatnot in first bag

and if we get rid of mnemorised patterns then that is a good thing no?

[grand topaz]

Yes, but some people argue that memorization is to the benefit of the game.

[signal crypt]

some memorization is good for the game

[fierce hatch]

if people want to memorise then just learn box into pco solves

theres still potential for opener mains

but it increases skill floor

[grand topaz]

Some memorization is good like shachiku train

[fierce hatch]

thats not an opening

[lament elm]

To be frank, I feel that the current implementation of 7+X is just a tad overkill compared to the old 7-bag's volatile start and the transition momentum.

[signal crypt]

also points have already been made that:
7+x pushes towards 6-3, 9-0 or 4w meta because in most cases you are getting rid of 35 pieces to get to the part where you play the game

it drags out the opening of the round making it even more dull than the current 7bag we have

[winged tartan]

7+X is fundamentally only aimed at the first 4 bags

[fierce hatch]

just to confirm, 7+x is 7+3, 7+2, 7+1, 7+1?

[winged tartan]

(and none of the extra pieces are duplicates)

[fierce hatch]

maybe you change bag structure of 7+x then

7 x 7+1?

[lament elm]

ye, i think i alr compile a few changes

[fierce hatch]

that still breaks stickspin/sdpc, is much more lenient in terms of stacking (better for low ranks)

[winged tartan]

one change i've seen suggested is removing from the extra bags

[fierce hatch]

and doesn't gravitate to 6-3/9-0 as much

[winged tartan]

so it'd impact less bags and not mess with parity

[grand topaz]

I don't see why

Then again I don't understand parity

[loud hazel]

hot take: tetrio should be more catered towards high ranks rather than low ranks

[winged tartan]

i don't really either, just about minimizing waste i suppose

[lament elm]

yikes, how would we have new players

[signal crypt]

if we do it this way then essentially we are gatekeeping the community for U ranks and above

[loud hazel]

not like completely gatekeep

[lament elm]

that's just bad imo, but that's certainly a take

[fierce hatch]

i think people overestimate the increase of skill required for lower rank players

lower rank players who dont use openers won't be affected

and lower rank players who do use openers (which are generally instakill openers) will be forced to learn how to stack

which also improves the learning curve as they wont reach ss and get hardstuck because their opener doesn't work anymore

[signal crypt]

it does solve the current issue in lower ranks, but new issues come up for high ranks

[signal crypt]

this for example

[fierce hatch]

my counterpoint was this

but its quite subjective

[grand topaz]

can't higher ranks just learn to play without their 4 bag openers tho

[loud hazel]

the reasoning behind my take was that in my opinion tec and ppt are just better casual games than tetrio, while tetrio is a better competitive game

[fierce hatch]

i think tec zb is more competitive than tetrio

[signal crypt]

you might be able to suggest something that is not striding 6-3 until the 35 pieces are gone then

[grand topaz]

I do STSD 3wide sometimes

Game sometimes ends in 30 pieces

Also I'm not at home so don't ask for replays 🤷

[signal crypt]

that still doesnt say much about how bad it is to open the round lol

[grand topaz]

I also made DT cannon in 7+X

[signal crypt]

understandable if you can make patterns out of it, 6-3 striding is still the way to get out of the 35 pieces

[grand topaz]

it's just different

[grand topaz]

tbf that's already one of the best options to get fractal quad open

[fierce hatch]

is there any argument as to why 6-3 is bad other than it reduces player expression?

(which is important, don't get me wrong)

[signal crypt]

it feels awkward to actually transition into midgame

[fierce hatch]

what do you define as midgame

[loud hazel]

youll have to deal with t floods sometimes

[loud hazel]

past the first 35 pieces affected by 7+X

and yeah, of course, 6-3 every round is way more stale than people doing different openers depedning on the queue

[fierce hatch]

i think its arguable that 6-3 is only being preferred as of right now because players aren't as comfortable with freestyling tsd openers

[fierce hatch]

but yeah, this is definitly a valid pt

[signal crypt]

i think it is just that we havent experimented with 7+x enough that any opener is made and a lot of the setups we made are on the fly

it still doesnt excuse the fact that the gameplay is to get out of the first 35 pieces, then actually play the game

[fierce hatch]

i guess a big point of 7+x is that you make stuff up on the fly

which is disadvantageous to 6-3 in its speed

but if mastered is more efficient

[fierce hatch]

i disagree, that is assuming we cannot be efficient in the opener

if we get to a point where our efficiency in 7+x is somewhat comparable to 7 bag then you certainly would not think that way

[signal crypt]

perhaps

[loud hazel]

perchance

[signal crypt]

mayhaps

[grand topaz]

I don't get this claim that "every game starts with 35 piece stride 6-3" when that's not necessarily true

Also SDPC/DPC is actually more annoying to start every game with even as a viewer because you know it's effectively broken tech and root for them to lose

[fierce hatch]

personally, during the event i started 70%ish of my games with freestyle pco

and i would say most of time i got into an equal midgame

against opponents who were doing 6-3/tki freestyle

[loud hazel]

disagree with this point

maybe im just good at dealing with it or smth but i do not think this way

[grand topaz]

The best thing that can happen to SDPC/DPC is 1 line of garbage

[loud hazel]

which is actually quite easy to send!

[fierce hatch]

dubble

[grand topaz]

It's unfortunately somewhat tricky if the SDPC is 4 pps.

Also it's silly that the game revolves around sending 1 line of garbage before they get the pc.

[loud hazel]

you see this little fella right here?
this is huskar from dota 2, the whole gameplan against him revolves around surviving for long enough to destroy him in the late game

things like this are normal in video games

a strategy that has a certain counterplay measure that you have to follow

[fierce hatch]

pco proof of concept

is it slow? yes but its not like 6-3 has immediate damage output either

[grand topaz]

the discussion is about whether having such "cheese strategy" in the game makes tetrio more fun to play + more accessible to new players

Not whether "other games have a similar concept (that requires additional justification to prove why it's not just something game-breaking)"

[fierce hatch]

i think its queues like this which turn people against 7+x

because truthfully, this is fucked

but even still, its still freestylable (ignore md)

[loud hazel]

dpc spotted no way

[loud hazel]

i kinda simplified things down with my analogy there, because there is way more counterplay to that character than i described (and so is with openers)

[grand topaz]

I got OSZSZ and was like "oh here is a fun queue"

But I do play total mayhem sometimes (fully random pieces)

So I'm not really bothered by weird queues

[grand topaz]

I'd love to see games start like this lol

[grand topaz]

The counter to SPDC is 4pps TKI. Not very nuanced

And then you guard the backup c-spin

And then they start infds-ing for 3 minutes

[open lion]

Maybe just nerf pc for a couple of seconds

[loud hazel]

uh, they already do

[fierce hatch]

or sdpc/stickspin itself

but yeah your point stands

[grand topaz]

Counter stick vs stick 👍 I have a video of it and it's one of the least viewed, least upvoted ones lol

[open lion]

I mean it’s kinda ur choice to learn an opener

But at the same time not fun for some ppl

[fierce hatch]

theres no other counter to sdpc

because you have to 1. deal with the annoying tss, 2. deal with big spike

its not like you can plonk because tss is hard to clear

so you're pretty much forced to cancel

[open lion]

Ban tspin singles for the first 10 seconds

[grand topaz]

The TSS is the vulnerability, send TSD during that

[loud hazel]

more like counter stick with 10% garbo

[grand topaz]

It's literally the way to counter it

tsd as they tss

[loud hazel]

also this, yeah

[grand topaz]

If you fail you probably die because it's broken

But sometimes you get lucky garbage and then you live. Oh joy

And then it becomes a question of if you can get uneven garbage under the DPC before they can start clearing lines.

Which if they get then they probably win.

[open lion]

Tbh I haven’t gotten spdc ed a lot recently tho

[grand topaz]

It's funny how much APM drops from 1 line of garbage

[grand topaz]

I guess they're stuck in mid/high u

[open lion]

I am

[grand topaz]

iirc you're x

[open lion]

Dropppppp

[tired flame]

for once we actually have a similar idea.

I really think it's just a downstacking skill issue

[grand topaz]

Pure clean buffs blitz mains

[tired flame]

and this should alleviate it

[grand topaz]

You don't get 5 I pieces to clear that bs

[fierce hatch]

That encourages speed even more

[loud hazel]

yippee

I love speed

[open lion]

Cycle through i pieces as fast as u can

[tired flame]

Start of the round is always gonna be a burst pps check.

With downstacking and plonking you need less of it

[fierce hatch]

My suggestion is 7+1 for bag 1 only

[grand topaz]

This discussion just cements for me that openers are broken and 7+X is the perfect solution, no "appended" no T fix needed

[tired flame]

and it's always been the goto if slower

[loud hazel]

openers will be developed for that

[fierce hatch]

Hmm

True ig

[loud hazel]

there's actually already one everyone is quite familiar with

[loud hazel]

DPC

[fierce hatch]

Wait yeah

[tired flame]

Downstack skill issue is what KOs people at the start. It's always about upstack, novideos or guides about proper downstacking

[grand topaz]

The benefit of 7+X is that it merges the 5th bag into the 1-2-3-4 (exactly 7 pieces)

[tired flame]

it's why openers are not an issue the higher it is, because basic downstack skill is more developed

[fierce hatch]

Yeah true

Ignore my suggestion kekw

[tired flame]

Pure clean doesnt buff blitzers

blitzers want no garbage

[loud hazel]

i literally had to have the top 30 best player in the world friend explain how to properly plonk to me, because otherwise i couldn't understand it

[grand topaz]

Pure clean means there's no piece sequence allowing you to ds unless you get lucky and build 2w/3w right where garbage well is

[fierce hatch]

Stickspin withclean garbage scares me

[grand topaz]

It'd literally buff blitz mains and openers even further

[tired flame]

have you really not tried afk at start and ds and/or make a tsd/quad and afk and ds?

you make a plonkable board

garbage rng doesnt matter

[grand topaz]

Doesn't help against sdpc/dpc or extended

[open lion]

Lol if the whole problem is stick ban tss for idk

[tired flame]

because?

[tired flame]

downstacking will stop sdpcdpc idk what you're smoking

[open lion]

Or just make it never early o

[loud hazel]

the guy didnt sdpc there but the general idea is still there

[fierce hatch]

2 lines of garbage is awkward

[tired flame]

If anything downstacking as a viable counter stops working with garbage travel times at liek 4-4.5+pps

[fierce hatch]

It's dsable but you gotta keep up with them

[grand topaz]

Discussion about SDPC/DPC 4 pps, posts 2 pps LST

bruh

[tired flame]

before then it's easy af timing to plonk burst ds

[loud hazel]

im talking about the general idea

[tired flame]

im saying what you're saying makes no sense

[grand topaz]

The general idea is completely different for both sdpc/extended/stick

[open lion]

But I think it’s the insane speed of the spdc mains

[grand topaz]

They were devised literally so they cannot be countered like LST can be

[fierce hatch]

We're assuming that the sdpc player speedcaps you

If not for that assumption then any opener can counter sdpc

[grand topaz]

4 pps SDPC into 2 pps infds

[tired flame]

anyways it's easy af to downstack stickspin sdpcspin sdpc dpc.
It's harder to downstack 4l pc spam(which is non existent at low ranks anyways)

sdpcextended requires canceling the tss then it's the same easy plonk

The real issue is lack of basic ds ability

until like SS+

so just make it easier to ds via more clean garbage at teh start

there's been garbage messiness setting added to customs

it's already half implemented

[fierce hatch]

Destroy 4w even more

I'm all for it in that aspect

But I think it lowers skill ceiling

[open lion]

What but doesn’t 4 w only matter if they have high speed

[fierce hatch]

There would be much less nuance in tanking and cancelling if everything was clean

[tired flame]

No, some people can't freestyle 2-3 tsd/quads to cancel

and die to 3-4 lines of cheese

cause opponent will either spike afterwards or cheese the board more

[loud hazel]

its only for the first couple of bags

[tired flame]

like i said basic ds skill is nonexistent

[loud hazel]

to nerf openers

[earnest socket]

there's a big difference between low ss and high ss

I would say people get good at downstacking when they are high ss

and even some low u ranks don't even know how to ds

[tired flame]

Low U there's actually variety

there's plenty of downstackers

SS is very opener main heavy

[loud hazel]

this is why im definitely staying there by choice (not because i suck)

[tired flame]

basically the ones who mostly cant do them faster and dont have decent enough midgame to climb up

[loud hazel]

but true though

[tired flame]

in Low u, 3-5 lines of cheese doesnt really bother players, in SS it's basically a free KO on them

[open lion]

To me u rank was the most openers while ss was less

[tired flame]

And imo the only difference between low SS and high SS is more develoepd pvp tactics, like i noticed more plonking

other than that and more cleaner stacking, it's basically all the same

[tired flame]

as someone who climbed out of SS and stayed low u(23k) via primarily dsing

I can somewhat say low U has way less opener mains

or atleast not entirely reliant on them

[open lion]

I’d just say not entirely reliant

[tired flame]

like 50% of SS is opener main I would say low U is around 25%

from personal experience

so idk you climbed up pretty fast

[loud hazel]

i may be biased because thats how i play but the best word to describe low u is inconsistent

they sometimes show sparks of mid/high u level of play

but then they do shit like 60 apm midgame

[tired flame]

That cause the midgame is still the same as SS

b2bx1-2 then break on repeat, never really consistently reaching b2b lvl2/3

[loud hazel]

btw this is why its easier for me to play against higher ranked u's than lower ones

they send enough clean for me to rely on

[tired flame]

I mean this is going offtopic

but probablyh?

everyone gets apm buff from cleaner garbage

[loud hazel]

just yesterday i almost lost to an ss and right afterwards i 7-3ed a 24100 guy

[loud hazel]

yeah true

[grand topaz]

SPDC/DPC sending only clean would be immediate death if tanked, this is literally a ds nerf

[tired flame]

? that makes no sense

[loud hazel]

you dont tank the entire 20 lines at once

[tired flame]

The main issue with tanking against sdpc, sdpc-spin, stick-spin, extended is the tss garbage

and with meh ds skill you can get trapped by that

makign cleaner garbage basically removes this and makes downstacking really easy

Like against SDPC -> DPC. After the first PC, it's setup 7 pieces then TSD, then setup and finish the DPC.

If you setup a TSD/quad. And then afk until the SDPC. Then you tank with 1-2 pieces, and with the T/I piece in hold you send back. You basically have to stack 2-3 pieces before the next DPC happens.

The timing is so easy to exploit I never even knew this

but was doing it just fine at S+

[tired flame]

should mention this is about garbage messiness becoming cleaner

and not clean garbage in how it's used generally

[grand topaz]

that's kinda the goal of all blitz mains tho but I'm aware you get 8 each time

Still would die to the 3rd batch because you're not getting 3 i pieces any time soon

As I said, full clean buffs blitz

[loud hazel]

did you just completely skip what the other guy has been saying this entire time

[tired flame]

should also mention I mean doing this with no opener knowledge

also should mention I didnt know what garbage cap/meter was

once i learned garbage cap is from 25pi's video easy climb to SS

[tired flame]

well idk i always said zhun makes no sense sometimes.

I did bring this topic up like 2 days ago since i saw 0 mention/discussion about this of it at all

Today zhun saying decrease garbage messiness buffs blitz mains

while last time zhun saying increase garbage messiness buff blitz mains

Which one is it? 😔

[grand topaz]

Both for different reasons

[grand topaz]

You either get too little clean or too much

The "clean only at first might debuff C4w tho

[primal gale]

🔥

[grand topaz]

I also don't see why the argument against 7+X is the claim that you're "not playing the game" during the first 35 pieces

[tired flame]

which still makes no sense cause receiving garbage of any kind stops blitzers

[grand topaz]

Well yes you want to have blitzers get an uneven (odd) number of garbage

[sharp condor]

That makes no sense

You’re literally contradicting yourself

If you’re going to make an argument then pick one side, you can’t just refute what people say and use contradicting logic

[grand topaz]

I'm not contradicting. Neither full cheese nor full clean helps beat blitz because of two completely different reasons.

If you get wrong cheese pattern you're dead

If you need 3 i pieces in a row you're dead

All of this is just building compromises in place of 7+X because people want to keep their step-by-step kill openers they can do with 4 pps even tho it's quite clear it's the reason that the game is tricky to pick up for new players in the first place.

The best solution is to keep 7+X and thus people will need to focus on midgame instead of rehearsing the same thing over and over.

Just get rid of SDPC and stickspin with a new bag and then the smurf accusations will stop.

[tired flame]

Wouldn't happen is garbage messiness is decreased

at the start

And 7+x does not change the main issue of survivablity, it's will simply still be a burst pps check at the start

[quick sapphire]

The thing that 7+X ( and other alternative bag systems ) does that 7 bag doesn't is while both are very burst dependant. The burst in 7+X is much harder due to the larger unpredictability of the bags. It's not just "Oh I got early O. Time for SDPC " or some similar opener.

You need to 'Think on your feet' I believe is the phrase.

[tired flame]

It's still very easy to stride 6-3 9-0 out of 7+x then freestyle b2b or plonk with it

If you're stuck in 7+x can't really reliably plonk or ds with the potential increased drought

Though i know there is where we disagree ninetales

But i do not see the benefit of trying to freestyle the first 35 pieces

All i see is burst pps 5 bags like how it is now to gain the advantage to then b2bx8 in under 1 minute while the opponent who chose to waste time to play around in 7+x getting spiked to death

Or 4w to death

Plonking and dsing is not really an option anymore at the start, it will be about trying to catch up to faster strider and hope 7+x didn't rng you an 💀 board and instead you formed one that more plonkable/survivable

It's why im for #1233972737576276040

Or even a 14 bag instead of 7+x since it will be similar issue except only 14 pieces

Or #1234909644003213392 or cleaner garbage so tss garbage from stick, sdpc etc don't hinder poor ds ability

[quick sapphire]

Indeed

I still respect your thoughts too.

[tired flame]

Like I dont really see opener mains as issues for me personally. Openers are more about getting to a desired board state with b2b ideally

its still gonna be the same regardless of 7+x or not

but of course i know this disucsison is more about the entire ranked playerbase

[golden drum]

From what I've played plonking still works, but my mindset changes even though only the first 4 bags are affected

I do feel like my opponents are inf dsing more but that's probably just people not adjusting in time

[tired flame]

10 9 8 8 bags

so potential 9+8 8+7 8+7 droughts just makes it worse

than normal

[quick sapphire]

Openers really should be a transition to 'midgame' but the ability to play them as an entire playstyle is just too much of a problem. Maybe not for everyone ( Like you personally ) but It's very easy for inexperienced players like me or lower rank players to get hit hard. At that point it's not VS it's just survive opener, hope they missdrop, or you just died.

Dying repeatedly without being able to send a single line of garbage is just demotivating. It hits me hard in so I can only imagine how lower rank / new players would feel to be repeatedly hit by it.

[golden drum]

Yeah I transitioned out of kill openers for more freestyle spike openers like some ones that I made with the help of my friends

[quick sapphire]

Please don't oyes me @long palm. I don't find it remotely funny.

[long palm]

Eh Ive kinda started to suck at sdpc

[golden drum]

Use ss instead

It's a good counter for tanking or just flat out denying pc

Since it's waste into two tst's

[quick sapphire]

what difference does it make if I say ss or ? Seems like a strange thing to complain about.

[golden drum]

Not the rank

Ss the opener

Probably should clarify

The ss I'm talking about is an opener I made with the help of some friends that stands for Sillyspin

[quick sapphire]

oh ok

my mistake.

[golden drum]

Yeah np

Makes sense if you haven't heard of Sillyspin

[grand topaz]

Any solution that makes it impossible to reliably build multi-bag openers is good

But it's an added bonus if it also reduces immediate pattern stacking like flat top tki to LST

@rugged spear anything to make two games not look effectively the same as it opens twice

Otherwise it's like starcraft 2 where every TvZ game was just marine vs mutalisk baneling in every match of a FT5

[rugged spear]

why are you so against lst

[grand topaz]

seemingly too repeatable

But it's only boring if it's an opener, just like mech vs stmb-cave dono

Imagine if TL had damage reduction for the shapes of the same type in the same column

I would be sad to see TST tower nerfed tho

[tidal magnet]

i dont think

i mean it actually requires some skill

[lilac bronze]

to someone who has never played tetris, tetris seems like a simple game where all you do is the put the same 7 pieces in different spots all the time, but an experienced player will tell you that it's not that easy.

to someone like you who has never done lst, lst may seem like a simple strategy where all you do is the same thing and repeat the pattern, but an experienced LST stacker will tell you that it's not that easy

🗣️

[tidal magnet]

it's repeatable but not as mindless as openers

[tidal magnet]

give it a shot

try LST and see if it's easy

[lilac bronze]

it's like saying forts sprint shouldn't count or it should have a time addition because he uses the stacking patterns multiple times in 1 run

like 💀

[tidal magnet]

yeah 😭😭😭

i think we should add pentominos to add variability because it's too predictable 🥰🥰🥰😭🆚🈯️🈺🆎♑️🅰️🈲🅾️

[lilac bronze]

hey zhun imma need to see your tl matches that have ZERO stacking patterns in them AT ALL 😭

bc it makes you play quicker since your brain picks up on the patterns

also too repeatable

[tidal magnet]

i think that garbage should also be 2-wide at times

[tight harbor]

actually what ISN'T pattern

[tidal magnet]

because 1-wide is too predictable 🫨😬🥱😴🤐🤢🙄😐🙄

[tight harbor]

[lilac bronze]

EXACTLY

THATS THE POINT

[tidal magnet]

yeah i think

a good game would use a good balance

[tight harbor]

[tidal magnet]

openers are op and only use like a couple of patterns

stacking uses a lot more but not unreasonably so

[lilac bronze]

yeah you shouldn't have patterns because then someone might, learn something ooo 👻

[tight harbor]

godown is op

[quick sapphire]

I never thought about having garbage with more than 1 space. That's interesting.

Sorry, Meant to remove the @.

[tidal magnet]

there is a way to do it in a room in jstris

anything 3 and above is not fun

[quick sapphire]

I don't play jstris. But it's something else to consider.

[grand topaz]

tbf I lose against you so try not to take any ideas lmao

[lilac bronze]

are you saying you actually don't use stacking patterns in your games

is that what you mean by that

im fonsued

confsued

[grand topaz]

You say that as a joke, but that's the primary argument against either 6-3 or 9-0 at the start of a 7+X game

[grand topaz]

I only really do 9-0 when opponent is beeping and I have no better ideas

I also open with some 2x hamburger 6-3 for early O because extended-sdpc leads to it, like I do the 2x hamburger and sometimes mko from there

But I usually inf-ds and sometimes make a 2x t-spin setup of some variation

And if it doesn't work I start plonking for timing

I just lose to b2b stride because there's too much of it in too little time, I guess then I have to guard instead of send idk

The best shape is fractal quad and I don't build it nearly as often as I should

[grand topaz]

Honestly if I can I do STSD then

[lilac bronze]

i mean the thing is, there's no way to criticize lst for it being repeatable (so a pattern) because everything in this game is a pattern, like literally placing 2 pieces neatly is a pattern that you've subconsciously picked up over playing which is what allows you to play over like .5 pps, because your brain recognizes them quicker and quicker, and also nearly every single tsd you can do in a game is an lst pattern aswell

[grand topaz]

it's the same idea that people say mech is iffy but if you do it midgame then it's cool

[lilac bronze]

mech is pure memorization

lst is learned and applied

i can be just at good at someone at mech (stacking wise) instantly, while no one who just starts lst will be as good at me at it (stacking wise) even remotely quickly

just how someone who just started stacking will not be as good as me even remotely quickly, because it's not memorized, it's an amalgamation of tons and tons of patterns and the decisions of where to apply them

[rugged spear]

i have seen 0 people who have said this

[grand topaz]

You've never seen mech is cringe?

[rugged spear]

well, opener or not aside, I don't think a change to target a specific part of the game is good, if anything it should be a nerf and not completely make it impossible - hours of work have gone into opener labbing and i think invalidating all that work is a waste, if anything they should be nerfed to the point where it wouldn't make a difference if you use them, but is still an option

[lilac bronze]

i think he's saying no one is saying mech is just a pattern till midgame

also i don't wanna skip over what i said

because i think im 100% right on this and there's no way to argue it, so i want to know what flaw in my logic you see

[grand topaz]

time to lab new openers for 7+X

[lilac bronze]

where flaw in my logic

[rugged spear]

my point still stands

[tired flame]

zhun is very pick 1 minor thing to try to move the goalpost and never address other's main points

[grand topaz]

the point for quite a while has been that those labbed openers at this point are too easy to execute for too high reward, while countering requires a significantly higher skill than execution, which is why you see stickspin from B- to X, but you don't see people living it much until SS and only if you tell people what to do against it

[rugged spear]

my point still stands

[grand topaz]

Openers ruin the game at lower ranks so it's a good thing to remove them

[rugged spear]

why not nerf them so there's no difference between "freestyling" and using them? why completely remove them

is removing them the only solution you see

[grand topaz]

There is a Way to have no difference between an opener and freestyle, it's literally called 7+x bag

[rugged spear]

why completely remove them

[grand topaz]

You don't actually remove them, it just takes more effort to make it than mere repetition of the exact same piece placements

[rugged spear]

uh huh and what does repitition of the exact same piece placements include

why is "effort" to do "freestyling" valued more than effort put into practising one particular part of the game

[cyan forge]

^

[grand topaz]

with 7+X in mind, because it's the first 3-4 bags on a completely flat board

[cyan forge]

i dont mean to come back here but it seems like youve still been saying the same thing over and over again

[rugged spear]

??

[cyan forge]

what about the people that do like playing openers and do like playing against openers?

[hybrid depot]

i think we're all saying the same things

[cyan forge]

and besides, with 7+x bag there will be more problems of a similar nature

[grand topaz]

How

[lilac bronze]

considering he hasn't addressed what i've said you're correct

welp

sucks to suck ig have fun in this thread

[hybrid depot]

to be completely honest i think an overwhelming majority of people dislike playing against openers

[grand topaz]

I mean was I supposed to address that "you're good at LST"

[lilac bronze]

no

it wasn't

oh my goodness

[cyan forge]

think about it this way: regardless of what you do the game, there will always be a dominant strategy that wins every time against certain players

[tired flame]

Never addressed anything of importance when i mentioned that learning to ds opener is easier than upstack vs upstack during opener

[lilac bronze]

i was saying it's a pattern, just like stacking, stacking patterns shouldn't be punished, neither should lst

[rugged spear]

is it really though

[cyan forge]

whether it's high ranked or low ranked, or a certain other playstyle, someone's gonna be pissed

[tired flame]

I still think cleaner garbage messiness will lower the skill level to make dsing through openers easier

and probably the coolest simple solution

[grand topaz]

I don't mind if opening with a specific easily repeatable pattern is nerfed

[rugged spear]

i mean i'll take it if you have evidence

[hybrid depot]

i will support zhun though by saying that, most openers aren't patterns, they are more memorized outcomes

[lilac bronze]

all of you sprints should have 20 seconds added to them

[tired flame]

I dont trust zhun's statements at all

[rugged spear]

then why make the same claims for lst

[lilac bronze]

nah screw that

all sprints

[tired flame]

zhun called out 2 players openers, that they dont use

[hybrid depot]

a pattern is when something is familiar, not made to be identical

[lilac bronze]

every single sprint

is a pattern

they all have patterns in them

tons

and tons

punish the time on the sprint bc of that

right

[tired flame]

I wouldnt be surprised if zhun never practiced LST

[lilac bronze]

?

logical

[tired flame]

took me 3 months to get LST down enough to use in TL

Opener and spotting lst midgame

its obviously less braindead

[cyan forge]

ball pattern opener

[lilac bronze]

which is fine, he's saying lst is a pattern that should be punished

thats the issue

a pattern shouldn't be punsihed

[hybrid depot]

i do agree that lst should not be nerfed

[cloud mesa]

don’t get zhun’s argument after reading this for a bit

[hybrid depot]

it is a real skill you need to develop

[grand topaz]

Have you actually seen my current sprint 40L pb

[cyan forge]

how many more days until osk closes this thread and adds opinion tickets instead

[lilac bronze]

it's extremely stupid to say you should punish a specific pattern as if literally everything past piece 2 isn't a pattern

like

[hybrid depot]

unlike remembering what singleyou looks like

[hybrid depot]

no reasonable person plays like that

[lilac bronze]

HEART SHAPE

JZ

ON THE RIGHT

PATTERN

O PIECES ON TOP OF EACHOTHER

PATTERN

[tired flame]

A pattern? oh no

[lilac bronze]

PUNISH THE SPRINT

ADD TIME

[rugged spear]

(skims are patterns too!)

[cyan forge]

the whole thread is kinda

[lilac bronze]

A PATTERN

👻

[hybrid depot]

ok this is getting deranged

[lilac bronze]

AHH

[cyan forge]

https://tenor.com/view/sweaty-speedrunner-epic-gamer-sweatyspeedrunner-gif-22461398

rn

[tired flame]

still waiting for comprehesive dsing guide

anywhere online someone please make

[lilac bronze]

im applying his logic to the current situation to show that it's flawed

[tired flame]

ds skims are

[cyan forge]

new feature request: close this damn thread cause its literally argue yapping generator

[rugged spear]

too many skim patterns, so people who havent seen enough pattern think its freestyle 😔

[lilac bronze]

im fine with that

[hybrid depot]

ok let's be real no reasonable argument consists of "you made one heart shape by spamming hard drop you should be punished"

[grand topaz]

All openers including tki flattop LST should be nerfed so that people can focus on midgame instead

[lilac bronze]

as my point will never be adressed

[cloud mesa]

saying that LST has the same outcome while sprinters use the same box patterns isn’t really valid ngl

whoops wrong ping

[hybrid depot]

ok that's kinda excessive isnt it, it's literally a t-spin double come on, do you want us to just 6-3

[lilac bronze]

thats my point, im using his logic, "pattern should be punished" it is unreasonable, extremely so

[cloud mesa]

anyways openers are memorized and have the same outcome if you get the right bag, LST does rely on the bag but it’s not memorization like SDPC

you have to have vision to see the patterns

[lilac bronze]

until my actual point is addressed im out, but i doubt it ever will be, please do explain where im wrong in my point though

[cloud mesa]

“patterns should be punished” EVERY stacking has patterns it’s natural

you can have patterns in 9-0 while uncommon still happens

don’t know why LST is punished but alright

[grand topaz]

Immediately opening into a specific type of pattern stacking like LST, ST or mech

[cloud mesa]

or should be

[cloud mesa]

have you heard of sprints?

[grand topaz]

It's 40L line clear right

[cloud mesa]

uses the same 4x3 box pattern

are you saying that should be punished? cause it’s technically midgame if someone uses it

[rugged spear]

once again i have an issue with this classification

[grand topaz]

There's no actually "overpowered therefore it makes lower ranks miserable" aspect to box patterns in sprint

[rugged spear]

why is opening into LST the same as ST or mech

[cloud mesa]

how is LST overpowered?? it’s b2b stacking not a kill opener

deals reasonable amounts of damage imo

easier to cancel than kill openers

[rugged spear]

perfect t efficiency 😢

[earnest socket]

remmy approved t efficiency

[hybrid depot]

lst requires actual skill. it should not be nerfed.

[lilac bronze]

every like 30 minutes imma just come here to ask you to address my point

[grand topaz]

it's more reasonable than kill openers just a bit too repeatable from the start, lots of people flat-top-tki-lst with 4 pps for exactly 4~5 t-spins after which it all falls apart and barely starts up again, thus repeated opener just less OP as sdpc or stick or sdpc-spin or extended-sdpc-spin

[cloud mesa]

^ people train more LST than openers, because if you learn an opener you can just use it until you naturally gain speed

[lilac bronze]

pls

[grand topaz]

what was your point again

[hybrid depot]

i will try ok

[cyan forge]

zhungamer adding more openers to get even more people on the other side

[lilac bronze]

not u

[cloud mesa]

^ @grand topaz

[grand topaz]

Honestly MS2/DPC is also a problem at lower ranks but it's so easy to counter it barely counts

[lilac bronze]

lst is 10x easier to counter bro 😭

[hybrid depot]

well screw it im doing it anyway

[lilac bronze]

well have fun

you literally agree with me so idk what you're gonna do but 😭

[tired flame]

See my point on moving the goalpost and not addressing the main point.

[pseudo heron]

there's a heck of a lot more that can go wrong during LST because it's not a memorized setup. it is far harder to execute than something like mech or stickspin, so I don't think that LST is really a problem in low ranks. the whole point of 7+X is to address kill openers in the lower ranks

and LST is neither a kill opener nor something used as a free ticket to the higher ranks

nor is it something that you just memorize

[cloud mesa]

people train LST a lot as well

[cyan forge]

by your logic we might as well just use total mayhem

[cloud mesa]

like i trained a lot and I’m still not super comfortable with it

[severe spindle]

Lst needs skill to actually do and if someone can 4pps lst they prob deserve to win-

[grand topaz]

technically I do like total mayhem but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't

[hybrid depot]

i think most of us have covered this already. this is a game about pattern recognition. if nobody played with patterns, stacking fundamentals wouldnt exist and we wouldnt be t-spinning at all. lst, while powerful and very patterned, is something you develop skill for over a pretty long period of time (im still not great at it, for example). i respect (and sometimes agree with) zhun's argument that crutch openers such as sdpc and those c-spin openers should be nerfed. those are purely memorized. however, i completely disagree that things as basic as TKI should be touched. just to use TKI as an example, it is basically a freestyle opener. so idk what your reasoning is.

[cloud mesa]

no more stsd opener

[grand topaz]

sometimes I can do it sometimes not

[cloud mesa]

same with LST sometimes i can do it sometimes not

mostly due to bag but also human error

[hybrid depot]

tetrio is less of a puzzle game and more of a fighting game. it makes sense for the puzzle part to be easy, because the fun comes from the fighting.

games like NES tetris use the puzzling aspect as the fun. that's why i like that NES tetris is random.

[tired flame]

It's both tbh

[cloud mesa]

if tetrio was purely a puzzle game then people would spam 9-0 as there are no logical stacking methods after that which would make it so that the faster you are the better

[tired flame]

Puzzles aka stacking decisions to solve

[hybrid depot]

if you make the puzzling part hard, the fighting part is severely diluted. i think i might have played you (zhun) in total mayhem before, and i'm sure you felt that you were more worried about your stack being messed up than sending me lines (or at least, you were less worried about attack output than normal). it shifted the focus too much on your own game, rather than fighting.

[quick sapphire]

I think this topic has been discussed to death now.

[tired flame]

Low block cheeserace is a puzzle game, 20 tsd is a puzzle game, but yeah versus is mostly like fighting but still elements of puzzles to solve mid match

[tired flame]

People gonna yap until a decision tbh

[hybrid depot]

and there's not gonna be a decision tbh

[cyan forge]

hjess

[cloud mesa]

shee

[tired flame]

The thread did have 9+hours inactivity occasionallypast few days

[cyan forge]

and all of those messages can be summed up in like one paragraph

[cloud mesa]

proving the redundancy of his argument ngl

[hybrid depot]

what happened to being civil bruh

[cloud mesa]

like i get some points but nerfing LST i do not agree on that

[grand topaz]

I don't mind LST but it should be a midgame tech, which 7+X helps with

Top ranks LST even on 6-3 sometimes which is pretty dope

It's just very repetitive to see it as an opener

This is an issue of 7-bag by default just like ST in modern score attack

[tired flame]

Everyone who 6-3 stack can do lst stacking in 6-3

[grand topaz]

Indeed

[tired flame]

This is not even a top player thing... My first 20 tsd clean finish in 6-3 was bruteforcing it with lst...

[grand topaz]

But in U rank you generally only see it 7-2 and oftentimes as opening only

Well, 2-7, same thing

[tight harbor]

center well upstacking aren't really that different

[tired flame]

Nah 6-3 upstack and 5-4 upstack starts from opener is common too....

[tight harbor]

I don't see why you would nerf specifically one well

5-4 is also very common

I don't see opener into 6-3 much tho aside from MKO

[tired flame]

The scariest opener i've faced is mko into 6-3 spam at 4.5 pps against a 24.2k

[grand topaz]

Nice. 7+X nerfs that too

[tired flame]

Tki and reliable goes into 6-3 stacking easily

[tired flame]

Doesnt change anything just starts later

Like i said gonna be burst to 35 pieces in ideal board state and basically the same

[grand topaz]

That's the idea along with destroying the exact placement and easily repeatable kill spike openers, yes

That the patterns start a bit later

If you can actually make them

[tired flame]

Yup while killing plonk and ds

Everyone will be forced to upstack start

[grand topaz]

I didn't experience that and I'm inf-ds plonk

[tired flame]

And im inf ds plonk

And disagree with you

[tight harbor]

fronzie ppl just plonk and flat top goes into lst

[tough wagon]

this thread still going on?

[tight harbor]

reliable does go into 6-3 easily but I don't really see ppl using it much

[tight harbor]

ikr

[tough wagon]

osk did the right move with 7+x controversy to farm engagement

[tired flame]

Fonzie is the most flexible you can plonk or upstack freestyle usually into 5-4 or 6-3

[tough wagon]

flattop is flexible if u aren't opener main

[grand topaz]

evidently I'm missing something, I can kinda downstack even in total mayhem altho sometimes you get droughted so bad

[tired flame]

The drought is usually the biggest rng factor in failing ds at the start

And worse in 7+x by logic

Newer players lack basic dsing will often fail getting out of tss garbage and touching the clean opener garnage

Hence cleaner garbage messiness is better

[grand topaz]

yes 7+x allows slightly more drought but only at open

Which is pretty much ok

[tired flame]

Extremely worse

The plonkablity of boards is bad too

[grand topaz]

.. It didn't seem that much worse unless you actually don't place anything

Then again I downstack like blockfish just worse

[tired flame]

Like it's really intuitive to setup plonkable boards with 7bag which is really just not doable on 7+x (my opinion of course)

[tough wagon]

wait slowmode got removed?

[tired flame]

opps wrong one 😔

[tough wagon]

bot gameplay proved there is practically no difference between 7 bag and 7+x

[grand topaz]

There's less squabble

[grand topaz]

I believe that, I mean it's only 35 pieces at the start and it's still merely pseudorandom not fully random.

[tough wagon]

but because it's new, there's not much tech discovered + no openers that people are familiar with

[cloud mesa]

keyword bot gameplay

[grand topaz]

Why is that a problem? We could analyze bot play and learn from it, instead of pretending that playing the game without exact initial 28 placements from a wiki is impossible

[tired flame]

Zhun you read what freyhoe wrote about blockfish?

[grand topaz]

yes, but I don't mind because I do the same thing as blockfish already anyway.

Just sometimes not as creative with the 5 piece foresight.

[tired flame]

Basically what i felt about blockfish but wasn't sure my few attempts using it frey gave a concise explanation and even mentioned the million attempts

[grand topaz]

It's trying to clear lines without covering any holes, and clearing lines with minimal piece usages when possible

[tired flame]

It's worse than human still the wr is not by bf even after millions of attempts

[grand topaz]

possibly why I have decent survival but bad minimal piece cheese

[tired flame]

Like i said it's only relevant when spikes to the top and minimal dsing options

[tough wagon]

huh makes me want to create a cheese race bot like blockfish

in theory good bot gameplay should always beat human (?)

[tired flame]

I mean it's theory vs reality, maybe you can or maybe the wr will be human

It is cool seeing difference though

Cobra b2b dsing vs toj combo/pc dsing was interesting

[tough wagon]

new cobra probably destroys toj now

recently 7-1 at 2.5pps, i still want to test against even lower pps tho

but cobra isn't at ceiling yet 100%

it's still able to mantain its efficiency in 7+x

so i don't think 7+x and 7bag is that much difference

[grand topaz]

This is proof that the idea that 7+X can't keep momentum is people's unfamiliarity not that there's anything wrong with 7+X

[grand topaz]

when people tell me that blockfish downstack is bad, that means I actually don't know what they think is good downstack

I already think like blockfish just sometimes not enough foresight

Maybe they want more 2-wide quad damage block I dunno

[tired flame]

When I say it's bad, I mean it entirely for cheeserace

since I did try it out to see if it will help me push my pb from 242 block

And notice some bad decisions even at my level

What it did help was make me consider other options that i didnt think of it

but like any other mode, you should be focusing on recoginition and knowing when to use good patterns/decisions when you spot them

frey is #2 on the leaderboard(idk about the unsaved replays) so I would trust their insight more, but its something noticable even for me who sucks at cheeserace

Cobra is probably a good example of keeping b2b while dsing

which is probably the better downstack to learn from

[tidal magnet]

yeah lmaoo the mech guy taught like 2 or 3 ppl mech and then when he was gone and i was experimenting with mech in 7x i was just magically able to do it

[grand topaz]

Maybe when I find the time I'll try to look at some top min piece downstack replays, but currently blockfish makes perfect sense to me, doesn't need to be flawless I just need its foresight to have more options to choose from

[tired flame]

There's millions of options to choose from, but as humans and especially in tetrio a lot of it is spotting patterns that you recognize. You obviously know stacking decisions that will break b2b and learn to subconciously avoid them.

It's the same with blockfish, it will show you more stacking options you never considered

but it will NOT tell you if the option is good or better than the other options

overloading your mind with pointless options

maybe harmful

[grand topaz]

Maybe. I can't know for sure

It helped me tho

Up to a point

[tired flame]

Well if you mean for TL, like i said cheeserace dsing is not reaally relevant unless you're dealing with cheese or got spiked to the top with minimal options. Even spiked to the top with lockout gone, there's usually more options

[grand topaz]

interesting meta that you propose. I think it helps keep combo tho

[tired flame]

you can learn most of that from spamming 2w,3w,4w stacks

dsing through cheese to create a long combo while not trapping yourself is not skill in my eye it's usually up to RNG. They are fun to execute though

It is a skill to a degree, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMkrHn2b3d8

in cheeserace you want to maintain a lowstack while in TL that's not true

[grand topaz]

it's different if you get it from garbage and not an upstack wide

[tired flame]

from 1 year ago

if we bring this back to plonkable boards then 7+x is not it

[slender torrent]

would be difficult to implement dynamic 7+x?

before the game starts it makes the players choose 7+x or 7 bag

if both choose option, ok

else it spins randomly choosing one

I think no one would disagree on that

[tired flame]

That opens a new can of worms

everyone starts with the same bag/queue

currently

[slender torrent]

Yeah

but

[tired flame]

and naturally people will pick the more meta one

so this seems pointless

[slender torrent]

before the game shows the board

I say

And

the bag will be for the entire game

I mean match

[tired flame]

Oh you mean for the match

[slender torrent]

example: 2 people queue
both chooses 7+x to play
entire match will be 7+x

example2: 2 people queue
one choose 7 bag and other 7-x
game picks randomly one
the entire match will be based on the choosen one

yeah

[tired flame]

like round per round

bag changes

[slender torrent]

no

entire match

[tired flame]

k i was trying to think this through

[slender torrent]

based on what is choosen on the start

[tired flame]

was confused mb

[slender torrent]

it's fine, explaining isnt one of my strongs

[tired flame]

Like how in League there's pick ban on champions

maybe it would be cool to pick ban teh bags

[slender torrent]

idk league but yeah maybe that

[tired flame]

Like losers choice on bag

[slender torrent]

I only know that everyone will have the chance to play with the bag they prefer, not always but still better than be forced 100% in something they dont want

[tired flame]

gives incentive for alternative bags to spice up the game.

[cyan forge]

pairs main

this is a little jank

[slender torrent]

2 peoples that likes 7 bag matches: yay 7 bag

2 people that likes 7+x matches: yay 7+x bag

2 people opposite opnion bout those bags: wtf flip the coin

[cyan forge]

kinda jank

then people will complain about bad rng

[grand topaz]

God I hate pairs

I like all the others.

Well, 7 bag is kinda stale.

[slender torrent]

better having a chance to play with preferable bag than be forced by the game

[tired flame]

imagine a limited pool of bag choices, you pick preferences and ban preferences, then idk 2 round gap, loser gets to pick from their preferences that didnt get banned

[slender torrent]

wtf

too hard

[cyan forge]

this is where tetr.io seasons come in

[slender torrent]

My idea was just picking between 7bag and 7+x

[tired flame]

I mean its just a vague af idea

but i can imagine them adding more creative bags options

[slender torrent]

I mean, werent we already having trouble with 7+x which is already fine imo

I like 7+x but not on my rankeds

[charred walrus]

Cheese race has a fair element of rng and qepsis decisions are almost always the same as blockfishes

[grand topaz]

Happy to see a season of 7+X soon

[hybrid depot]

actually yeah, literally all of this can be mostly solved with seasons so ppl play what they like

[tired flame]

I do wonder what tourneys will do in that situation. Follow the season or enforce certain ruleset alienating it from TL

[grand topaz]

Probably depends on tournament

If I hadn't been lazy I would have loved to see total mayhem tournament

[scenic slate]

whatever it is it's more than kinda

[mystic yoke]

bot vision is not 7 bag midgame

[mystic yoke]

how much queue does it have

[quick sapphire]

zhun quick question. Do you have a subscription to this thread to be notified by some form of ping whenever someone posts in it?

[sharp condor]

Humans aren’t robots 😭

[earnest socket]

I wish I was a robot

[open lion]

wai

[tough wagon]

human

[torpid acorn]

Okay, many of the things you've learned

look i maintained my rank during that "event" I'm perfectly capable of midgame stacking

the point was, right now, the game is reasonably similar to other such games

and in every other mode would still be. I don't think it makes much sense for the competitive mode to change the rules in this manner

You don't have to be an "opener main" to not like this change, that's for certain

[grand topaz]

not really, I just sometimes look at it

[grand topaz]

technically I did check your rank and at around 21.8k it's true that the dynamics of your opponents might be slightly altered, because a lot of clean garbage at that rank does come from opener mains, as after that people have no focus on trying to preserve b2b while downstacking => more cheesy garbage. So in a sense, there's truth to that the game might seem "less dynamic" et the start due to the lack of immediate garbage to counter, but on the other hand, I do think this is temporary as this problem doesn't happen anymore in U rank, people still know how to send garbage even without executing sdpc-spin/stickspin step by step.

[grand topaz]

however I do think this is temporary. As people might actually learn how to do a t-spin without having to do tki flat top LST to send up something.

[rugged spear]

this is actually misinformation we don't even have support for 7+x

[tough wagon]

wtf

my bad, it was pairs and mayhem where cobra played on

(and still kept efficiency)

[grand topaz]

Well if cobra can do it with total mayhem, it can do it for 7+X lol

[rugged spear]

well, its efficiency in pairs comes from PCs

[torpid acorn]

I don't do tki lst at all

[grand topaz]

you don't, but you might be reliant on its counter

[torpid acorn]

What I'm saying is I'm certainly capable of finding and freestyle t spins etc etc

I just feel like this bag messes up the early game even without openers

[rugged spear]

7+x efficiency, small dataset do not take any serious conclusion from this
and another disclaimer, cobra wasn't designed with 7+x in mind so it's obviously going to be worse

first 50 pieces might be a better representation, idk

here's 7bag regular

but cobra wasn't designed with 7+x in mind

soo

it does show it's possible to keep efficiency but i'd say it's less consistent

but once again this is too small of data to speak off of

[grand topaz]

Decreased efficiency during the first 35 pieces for the general populace is effectively the goal of 7+X so it's not actually a problem

Part of the goal is that people stop losing in 6 seconds to 4pps easily repeatable strats written down on a wiki page somewhere outside the game as some kind of insta-win cheat code

[slender torrent]

ok try 4pps mech

and show me the insta-win cheat code

[chilly robin]

best change ever

pls make permanent

#oskfor whenever tf the next us presidency is

[open lion]

2024

[sterile pagoda]

i like 7+x

[slender torrent]

me too

not in tl

[grand topaz]

evidently the cheat code is more extended-sdpc-spin followed by like, 1 more quad

But it would also remove the "sameness" of flat-top-tki-lst and MS2/DPC from so many games

[slender torrent]

ok wheres my x rank

[grand topaz]

Are you doing extended-sdpc into 6-3 with 4 pps yet

[slender torrent]

I go for fast tspins instead of 6-3

not 4pps cuz I check if I can tank or cancel cheese/cleans

[grand topaz]

6-3 is the fastest t-spins

[slender torrent]

2x less efficient

[tough wagon]

lst >>>

[onyx tide]

wha my openers still work

[eternal merlin]

7+X is currently NOT in TL, this is a discussion if it should be added or not

[onyx tide]

oh i see

i should

[grand topaz]

it was in for a day, most fun I had in TL in a long time

[open lion]

Openers are and like lst or tki

[wanton mulch]

lst is not a openr ong😭

[open lion]

ikkkk

it stacking right

for t spin double

[brisk badger]

I miss it

the better bag system

[open lion]

i think we know some people like it

[grand topaz]

yet it eerily looks the same each time, from 1st bag to 5th

[rugged ether]

lst is used like an opener by lots of people

it falls appart after a few tsds caus skill issue usually

[grand topaz]

i think LST is cool... as a mid-game tech

as an opener, it goes on the same heap as the rest multi-bag openers

[slender torrent]

tell that to ppl who knows 7 bags of lst

[grand topaz]

can those people do LST in 7+X tho

[slender torrent]

no, which means yeah its opener as mech is

I wish theres difference nomenclature for lst opener and lst midgame tho

[grand topaz]

well yes, those who do know LST will be able to transition to LST midgame without any hiccups after piece 35

[wanton mulch]

lst opener-or you can say tki to lst continuation

and use lst as a term, you know stacking

[slender torrent]

too long

[wanton mulch]

tkilst

short enough?

[rugged ether]

i lst in 7+x

just start is sometimes rng

[hybrid depot]

well lst opener is just jumping straight to midgame. like, is doing the same sprint opener bad? (i understand that the sprint opener is not the same strength as lst, but neither are as memorized as things like singleyou, etc. its more comparable to a freestyle dt cannon.)

[tired flame]

I forget who but someone shared a fumen on how to lst with 7+x

[golden drum]

Credits to Winterfrost/Fye

[spring minnow]

oh nice

[earnest socket]

Winterfrost co made nakavora

aka the best opener ever invented

🫡

[golden drum]

I've made a new 100% 28L that Nakamura likes lol

[earnest socket]

I cam 2.7 pps nakavora

[golden drum]

This is getting a bit off topic actually

Go to #tetrio·general

[grand topaz]

7+X can't come back soon enough

Guideline meta was a mistake that should be kept to guideline games

[spring minnow]

🤯

[grand topaz]

may tetrio be better than it is by not being hard-locked by guideline's problems

[open lion]

What

[grand topaz]

people say 7-bag is needed because "it is guideline" but that doesn't inherently mean it's better

honestly most of the guideline games aren't even popular anymore for various reasons

tetrio could easily become (even) better than all guideline games by not inheriting one of their most major flaw, which is the 7-bag

[open lion]

Well idk if it’s used because it’s guideline I think it’s just because it’s always been used basically

Oh did I say the same thing

[grand topaz]

That just means it's time to replace it with something better

[open lion]

Tbh we haven’t gotten enough testing with the bag I think

We got like 1 day and not a lot of people play it in customs

[grand topaz]

Yea I think the everyday folk don't even know what either bag is

I didn't play 7+X until I understood what it actually means

In customs

And I only understood it after I looked it up, after it appeared in TL

before that I was generally playing 7+1

(or total mayhem)

[open lion]

Idk if this should be implemented permanently tho because most people still disagree with this bag + me

I just like things the way they are so that’s my entire reason

[grand topaz]

I think "most" is a stretch, the game rewards openers significantly more than other strats. Therefore those who are U or higher generally are there because they rely on it

[open lion]

Yeah but technically still people disagree with this bag

Even if you take that into consideration

[grand topaz]

In A to S I would think people would be happy to stop being obliterated by openers

A- and below probably wouldn't even notice the difference

[open lion]

Probably but then what about the u and x ranks

[grand topaz]

I mean I disagree with 7-bag it's just the currently existing status quo so nobody cares

I can easily reverse-uno that argument

[open lion]

I think mostly everyone can make an counter argument cause there’s not really a right or wrong answer

[grand topaz]

technically if the meta changes and the U/X can't keep their rank then they either need to adapt, or go to the rank where they belong in the new meta

Opener APM can be drastically different than midgame APM, sometimes 70 vs 10, or 230 vs 80

[open lion]

Yeah but like you could say that about this current bag, that they need to adapt

[grand topaz]

ok but at that point the real question is if tetrio itself wants to be about 4pps pattern repetition for maximum efficiency

[open lion]

Uhh idk mostly just it will probably stay the same or rotate between 2 bags

[grand topaz]

Exactly

It's just 35 pieces

Freestyle in the first 35 pieces or 6-3 if you truly believe that's the only way out of it, and everything continues

All it does is erase the possibility to repeat the same thing at the very start every single game

Which makes the game both less stale to play and less stale to watch

I'm bored of seeing LST opener if it's not stick or SDPC every single tournament

[open lion]

I mean not really less stale to watch u can still make a different opener like pc spam

There’s maybe counters to some openers too

[grand topaz]

PC PC DPC is kinda wild ngl

[grand topaz]

The counter is generally another opener executed with the same speed

Or faster obv

[open lion]

Idk the meta has always kinda been speed

Even in the new bag

[grand topaz]

True to an extent

Tetrio is even less about speed than TE:C ZB but it's still heavily in favor of whoever is faster

As long as they don't make terrible decisions while faster

But at least with 7+X it's not about "who can execute something off the wiki very fast in less than 6 seconds"

[grand topaz]

Personally among loops I somewhat respect BT -> c-spin more than the other loops

It has significantly more variations, seemingly

That thing is both vulnerable and kinda tough even if it's exact

But it'd also be better to just not have loops like that in general

[spring minnow]

i think 7 bag is better with how it plays 👍

[mystic yoke]

just alter starting board state

[open lion]

just ban openers

[onyx tide]

too much moderation

[torpid acorn]

you cant jsut say things like that without something to support it

its easy to say that when you aren't playing them yourself

it might be more fair to say not popular with the more serious players, perhaps. but t99 still draws healthy crowds, PPT 1/2 still have active players, TE:C idk i havent played in a while myself

[winged tartan]

important to keep in mind that steam charts don't paint the whole picture

[torpid acorn]

especially if a game is more popular on console than on PC

[mystic yoke]

literally JP switch ppt

[torpid acorn]

i was really surprised when i fired up ppt1

and still found games

I guess im not the only one who thought ppt2 was actually a step back

[open lion]

pretty sure ppt2 just nerfed tetris by a lot amd buffed puyo, made character voices a bit worse, and had less players on some consoles/ split the playerbase

[mystic yoke]

it added more line clear delay relative to 1

[winged tartan]

seriously? i didn't know that

[red blaze]

That's one more reason why I have regrets getting PPT2 :d
Oh well

[slender torrent]

how worse, ppt2 has cowboy ess

and

ft3+

[grand topaz]

everything in PPT2 lags

the handling is just abysmal

and so is control responsivity in general

[slender torrent]

Really?

I feel literally the opposite

besides I dont use controller

ppt1 used to be barely playable due lag and softlock screen

which

also happens on ppt2 but less times

[open lion]

should talk in lobby or smth about this

[slender torrent]

yeah

[rigid zenith]

if your experience is from ppt 2 steam then ig it’s reasonable but apparently ppt2 switch is way better

[grand topaz]

i have it on both and it lags everywhere 🤣

[barren lava]

wasnt that fixed in a patch

[hybrid depot]

one thing i kinda worry about is consistency in the game as a whole. like, why should singleplayer be 7 bag if multiplayer isnt? while it doesnt make or break the game by any means, it just feels a little off

[torpid acorn]

at least I'm not the only one who thought ppt2 was a downgrade lol

[vast matrix]

afaik every gameplay difference in ppt2 and ppt1 got changed in a patch to basically be the same game

the only 'lag' that happens is because it probably has the worst netcode of all time, but the handling separated from the online experience feels perfectly fine to me so idk what are you all talking about

[barren lava]

yeah i thought they’re the same tuning now after all the updates

[torpid acorn]

well i hated it to the point that i deleted it before those updates

[opal hamlet]

Apparently ppt2 got sound effects changed to ppt1 in an update

[barren lava]

they did?

[winged tartan]

lol, some generational leap

[cyan forge]

derailment pro max

what happened to this thread