7+X-Bag in TL

[cyan forge]

grr i hate tki

[chilly robin]

One of the major results of 7+x was seeing how much people loved tki / meme openers, but couldn’t do them anymore

[wanton mulch]

probably because they have more experience so at least they can do better theorization, but eventually long-term test is needed to truly know what happenes

[chilly robin]

Not everyone is a stick/ms2/sdpc main, a lot of people enjoyed tki/pco/mko and suddenly found themselves with the short end of the stick

[rare sequoia]

People advocate for 7+x saying it has more variety and they hate seeing the same openers every game, but don't care about others not wanting to see 6-3 every game

[tidal magnet]

first bag should be normal 7-bag and the bags after that should be offputting

[cyan forge]

yea its just kinda weird to be arguing with each other when in the end high rank opinions dont matter nearly as much as lower rank opinions at this point

[wanton mulch]

hes x

[rare sequoia]

wyvr is x

[sharp condor]

no look, i think 7+x may help lower ranks but i think it makes higher ranked games lower quality

[cyan forge]

💀

[tidal magnet]

god dman

[wanton mulch]

rank card check✅

[tidal magnet]

then i guess i will say that both high and low opinions matter because it affects all ranks

[cyan forge]

yea i guess, but that already seems to be a common sentiment for people around 24.8~9k regardless

[sharp condor]

i support changes that reduce the strength of kill openers

[severe spindle]

what if its only 7+x for the lowerranks

[tidal magnet]

but i think that high rank opinions matter more bc we know the strategies that can counter openers or what the game may be like

[serene bramble]

this is misleading and assumes 6-3 is the only option other than openers. i know this is not what you meant but i think this is something that needs more run first before we can make a decision on if its positive or not.

[chilly robin]

I think pulling the rank card is a bad idea because lower ranks’ opinions are fully valid

It’s not like osk is specifically trying to fix lower ranks while leaving u and x intact

[rare sequoia]

I do disagree though, x rank opinions matter a lot because they're the audience of the game. They have invested the most time into the game while random B ranks will come and go

[severe spindle]

like s+ and below

[tidal magnet]

yeah that's what i was thinking but i am not sure where the boundary should be

[sharp condor]

yea exactly, x ranks are the main stakeholders of tetrio

[cyan forge]

the reason this wouldnt work is cause theres gonna be a power vacuum around those boundaries where you arent prepared for the opener gaming

[tidal magnet]

is a good one because there are lots of opener mains

[severe spindle]

s+ and below maybe in ss they need to deal with openers to actually climb tho

[charred walrus]

why would i find a cool tspin slowly and be stuck in weird bags when i can sprint out

[chilly robin]

Where are my dividends then huh

[sage plume]

I think it's a double edged sword; most X ranked players don't necessarily have an updated view on what lower ranks look like

[sharp condor]

You are thinking of shareholder

[tidal magnet]

that's true

[cyan forge]

so theres going to be people who already rely on opener maining, so they would win in an ss game but not in an s+ 7+x game

[rare sequoia]

6-3 and 4w essentially are the only options. Other options are much less viable and opening creativity isn't rewarded

[chilly robin]

Point stands

[tidal magnet]

but i think we are deciding our ourselves due to its effects also extending to us

like it wouldnt matter for us if it was only s rank and below but because it's all of tl i think we should also have a say (not for low ranks)

[cyan forge]

repeating my idea from yesterday, what about larger cancelling power at the start of rounds?

[charred walrus]

Like enjoy ur 1.9pps clean fin tspin double, im 1/3 of the way through a sub 30 sprint already

[sage plume]

I mean, even in top 10, 4 pps people still get opener mained at 6 pps 😭

[sharp condor]

i fear the rise of extended

[serene bramble]

just give it time. ppl are not dumb and will figure something out

[cyan forge]

although this wouldnt deal with mech and etc, it would still have a direct effect on kill openers

[tidal magnet]

that's also a good idea but how far should it extend

[rare sequoia]

That doesn't sound particularly convincing

[sharp condor]

wait also it might make dpc loop free also st stacking 💀

[tidal magnet]

i think maybe 30 seconds because most openers would be done

[cyan forge]

what if we took like the minomuncher thing for opener detecting and used that

[wanton mulch]

wdym

[cyan forge]

wait no it would be abused by a new kill opener with a skim

[chilly robin]

Not for a C rank trying stickspin

[charred walrus]

if your profile vsapm drops below 2 instant ban

[sharp condor]

rip diao

[tidal magnet]

no
there would be specific openers to counter that ofc

[cyan forge]

opener phase is everythinf from start to skim

hence my previous message

[sage plume]

opener phase is basically the initial setup and the clean garbage spam after that

[cyan forge]

idk. what if we just removed all tetrominoes and replace them with monominoes

[sharp condor]

does anyone have a counterargument to this? i think it feels weird but i can't exactly place why it would be bad

[cyan forge]

un.io

[tidal magnet]

i mean someone said that it creates a "power hole" or something of that sort i forgot

[grand topaz]

tki is cool but even better if you can't get it almost every single time

[charred walrus]

people on their way to either be 24500 or 21500 with no in between:

[rare sequoia]

It's already been discussed, they have to adapt to a new game once they reach a high enough rank and get destroyed by a kill opener, leaving the problem the same: they need to learn a counter

The problem is that they're disproportionately overpowered

[sage plume]

if 7+x were only for, let's say, A ranks and below, that would be a lot of people hardstuck at S rank LOL

(or they would learn to counter)

[cyan forge]

7+x games develop certain skills, and then as soon as you reach the cutoff, it is all useless as you dont know how to counter the openers

[sharp condor]

makes sense

[wanton mulch]

ranks are inconsistent from the start
players with 8000 tr with X rank skills or players who are hardstuck U opener main

[pseudo heron]

I have one

this creates a scenario where Tetra League is a combination of two different gameplay rules that change based on your rank; it's no longer the same game for people

[cyan forge]

also applies the other way—if an ss opener main dropped to s+ they would drop REALLY far (which probably shouldnt happen)

[chilly robin]

inconsistent gameplay standards that aren’t as easily justified (compare with ft3 vs ft7)

[tidal magnet]

what about 7+x getting less powerful the higher rank it is

[cyan forge]

ftx doesnt actually change any game elements themselves, thats why it works

[chilly robin]

And how do you plan to implement this?

[mystic yoke]

TL climbing is too fluid to separate them out like this

[cyan forge]

like how? d rank games are complete mayhem??

[sharp condor]

x rank games are 1-piece

[charred walrus]

i is the 1 piece

[cyan forge]

also i just dont like anything with set cutoffs cause it causes those meaningless milestones of like "yay i am 1492 glicko"

[chilly robin]

d ranks spawn with 18L cheese in order to save them time and just cut to the chase

[tidal magnet]

like 7+x for a+ ranks and below
7+2 7+1 7+1 for s- to s+
7+2 for ss
regular 7bag for u

[cyan forge]

stall challenge (level; impossible)

[tidal magnet]

idk just a thought

[sage plume]

Can we turn off 7+x at U rank 🤔

When people start TL for the first time, you start around S rank level in placements, so you are either good enough at midgame to reach U or you suffer due to opener

[cyan forge]

all garbage sent by kill opener should start by sending 3-4-3 garbage for instant c4w

[lament elm]

The one piece T is real !!!

[pseudo heron]

no, that would make low U the new opener hotspot

[wanton mulch]

What about people who are initially hardstuck opener main u

[cyan forge]

it could work if this was a new game, but this is not a new game by far, so we also have to deal with those in the ladder already

like: how do we balance the boat with people already on it?

[chilly robin]

with great difficulty

[cyan forge]

indeed

[sage plume]

I guess the issue is the existing people, but low U as the new opener hotspot isn't that bad as it implies that people should know how to do Tetrises, some t-spins, some upstacking and downstacking, etc

[tidal magnet]

what about in SS rank it makes half the games 7+2 7+1 7 7 7... and the other half regular 7 bag

[grand topaz]

no we should have 7+X everywhere so everyone gets the chance to equally experience fun

[chilly robin]

You still assume fun is the same definition for everyone

[tidal magnet]

that way low ranks can get experience countering openers and openers wouldnt be as powerful

[grand topaz]

I'm aware that for some people winning in 6 seconds is "fun" but from the game perspective it's bad

[cyan forge]

we should ban you fromt his thread

[pseudo heron]

there's something that I've noticed about the whole thread's conversations, and I think it's worth pointing out

I see a lot of conflation between "openers" and "kill-openers"

obviously, there is an enormous power difference between TKI/DT Cannon and Blitz main stuff

openers are meant to open the game; they get the momentum going. they are meant to make the beginning of midgame more fun. kill-openers are meant to close the game by ending it really quickly, preventing the game from reaching midgame entirely. this is where the problem resides

[cyan forge]

you serve zero purpose and give zero new information or opinions

[chilly robin]

Then discuss how it’s bad, not how it’s unfun

[tidal magnet]

no even for high ranks we already know how to counter openers so there's no point to putting it in

[cyan forge]

do not just come here to complain

we know you hate openers, but why not give actual evidence and reason instead of like shitting on them and thats it

[tidal magnet]

for low ranks they might need it bc they dont know how to counter openers but for u and above it is a necessity

[grand topaz]

as long as you extend that to the Pro-opener side of things such as "stop complaining the pieces are random at the start" technically that's better for me I've already said my part in the past after all

Just remember that no one will support you if you don't support yourself so may as well

[tidal magnet]

we gave actual reasons but u just repeated the same shit over and over again

[grand topaz]

Likewise

[tidal magnet]

no like we gave a good dozens of reasons
and suggestions to fix it without ruining the game

[cyan forge]

??? people share your sentiment but they give real reasoning instead of just saying "look the game is so shit right now we should remove openers from the game" over and over again

[pseudo heron]

what this entails: do NOT make it unreasonably difficult to build openers. they improve the game by making midgame happen faster and generating more momentum. get rid of the closers because they prevent players in the lower ranks from actually playing the game

[chilly robin]

one argument I haven’t heard in this channel (probably been mentioned while I wasn’t here):

to counter 3 pps sdpc, you just need 2.5 pps tki. Who can honestly say that 2.5 pps tki is harder? It takes a decent amount of skill to abuse speed with opener maining, and a lot less skill to counter it

This is not a rigorous argument but consider: if it were easy to 4 pps sdpc, why doesn’t everyone do it? because it’s not that easy lmao, try it yourself and see

[grand topaz]

7+X doesn't ruin the game. There's plenty of people who enjoy it

[tidal magnet]

plenty of ppl who dont too

there are better options opposed to 7x

[grand topaz]

We're already forced to play 7-bag, technically it'll be nice if we finally get a slack and get out of opener hell

[tidal magnet]

i think it's better to focus on the options that make openers more difficult rather than to outright remove them

[chilly robin]

opener hell is an interesting phrase to use, is that what it feels like to you?

[grand topaz]

But you can open in 7+X,stop pretending you can't

[tidal magnet]

such as the 14 7 idea or the 7 3 7 2 7 idea

[chilly robin]

Demonstrate this please

[sharp condor]

you can open in classic randomizer too (9-0)

[charred walrus]

No you cant lmao

[grand topaz]

You can, I played TL in 7+X and I did open.

[tidal magnet]

it needs to be

• clean
• reliable
• have a good distribution of pieces

[charred walrus]

Im pretty sure my vision is good for an X rank and i still trolled hard on some of those bags

[cyan forge]

we should ban you from this thread part 2

[wanton mulch]

imo the line that guards opener/kill opener is existence of pc, although some exceptions like stickspins exists so I'll have to think more about that

[cyan forge]

you are lowkey walking on the thin line between complaining and trolling

[tidal magnet]

7x is fine if there's a decent amount of next pieces shown

[chilly robin]

Any chance you got a clip of this?

[sharp condor]

one clip isn't enough to demonstrate anything

[grand topaz]

That's just the nature of this discourse 🤷 it's not like people who are carried by openers will enjoy no longer being carried, of course there's an uproar

[chilly robin]

When I played you in TL during 7+x, I didn’t notice any openers from you zhun

[tidal magnet]

he got an "opener" which only sent 9 lines lmao [stsd freestyle]

[sharp condor]

again, you are saying everyone who doesn't agree with you is an opener main

[chilly robin]

I can do better, it’s called freestyling 1st pc…which is not an opener

[cyan forge]

that is not the nature of this discourse. everyone else is giving real reasons and you are practically spamming "opener is bad"

[tidal magnet]

i hate opener mains but it doesnt mean they should be disallowed from the game

[chilly robin]

^ which is patently false

[rugged spear]

i want to assert my opinion that openers should be nerfed in some way, but this isn't the way to do it

[tidal magnet]

his messages are just 💀

[sharp condor]

yea idk why we're still playing brick wall simulator

[cyan forge]

openers should be nerfed, not killed

[pseudo heron]

building off this: the reason why this is so difficult is that it requires a lot of awareness and quick thinking that players in the lower ranks simply can't do. a player has to know that a closer is being used (which means knowing what closers are in the first place), which closer is being used, the best way to counter it, and then the player has to execute the counterplay after having already lost a lot of time from the first few steps

[tidal magnet]

honestly i think i have better things to do than talking to nothing

[chilly robin]

I’m an sdpc main and I can get behind nerfing kill openers, but this is just not a good way to do it imo

Do I have an idea I can prove is better? No, but I also don’t think I need to be a chef to decide if the food is good

[charred walrus]

how are they to be nerfed?

its can be hard to distinguish a kill opener from an opener opener

[cyan forge]

well that's what we are discussing

[tidal magnet]

kill openers typically use 3-4 bags and have pcs compared to other openers

[pseudo heron]

this method of countering closers takes a lot of effort and is a lot more difficult at lower ranks than just learning a closer to counter the closer

[cyan forge]

yea but im sure theres some elegant option that we havent thought about besides literally just hard coding opener detection into the game

[charred walrus]

typically

[chilly robin]

If you place first bag O in the corner you get banned

[tidal magnet]

it also tends to spike rather than having a good pressure distribution

[charred walrus]

Tki

[cyan forge]

mko weird version

[sharp condor]

pco and jigsaw 😎

[scenic slate]

DT

[charred walrus]

Stick has no pcs, and am i supposed to get punished for doing a tsd quad?

[chilly robin]

Sacrifices must be made for the sake of purity

[tidal magnet]

see second message abt spikes and pressure distribution

[scenic slate]

Not this kind of sacrifice 😭

[cyan forge]

what if spikes themselves were reduced vm

[charred walrus]

so i cant spike early on, whats to stop me from doing extended eztended sdpc

[sharp condor]

goes both ways, for example it will be very difficult to break dpc loop

[tidal magnet]

only at the starting 20 secs tho

[cyan forge]

nm yea

[charred walrus]

and just nuking as soon as protection from opener wears off?

[sharp condor]

ye

[cyan forge]

2 quads

[chilly robin]

what if osk just puts a hamster in a cage and lets the position of the cage decide what bag system to use in tl every week

[atomic echo]

I think I suggested earlier about having something like a scaling garbage send timer so lower ranks have more time to place pieces and think while getting spiked (kinda like whats in quickplay rn)

[charred walrus]

but thats a spike no? so i get protected from spikes early on

[rare sequoia]

You signed up for 7 bag when you decided to play, it's not forced on you. If you want to play without 7 bag play a game without 7 bag, the argument doesn't work

[cyan forge]

doing extended extended is already a risk

[rugged spear]

having some variability is nice, 7+x would get stale probably quicker than 7bag imo

[sage plume]

maybe pcs could do less damage in the first 20 seconds?

[cyan forge]

no quad and quad means + 9 garbage to your already 14 (?) height board

[chilly robin]

the day we get pairs generation in tl is the day people riot

[sharp condor]

this doens't address S rank stickspin gaming which seems to be the main issue

[tidal magnet]

there needs to be a list of these ideas

[rugged spear]

1app pairs possible #1002860659052134472 message

[cyan forge]

waitinf for the day when 12-height tst tower becomes meta

[sharp condor]

this goes both ways, it becomes much harder to disrupt openers like dpc or extended stick

[grand topaz]

if 7-bag is swapped out for 7+X, then you'll have signed up to play with 7+X and if you don't like it play a game without 7+X bag. same rules apply in that regard

it'll be only a matter of time passed

[rare sequoia]

If it gets swapped out you'll have signed up for 7 bag and gotten 7+x, that's not how it works

[chilly robin]

I think it is a fundamentally bad idea to target specific openers; by doing so you will only make other openers meta

[grand topaz]

on the bright side, it would be a rework that makes the game more accessible at every level of play

[cyan forge]

old tr vs new tr 😭

[charred walrus]

hire referees to call fouls when someone opens with a kill opener

[sage plume]

I feel like stickspin should be easier to deal with than pcs at a high speed 😔

it's a multi-bag opener where you can build at least one to two t-spins in the meantime to cancel

probably the downstacking aspect is the hard part?

[sharp condor]

yes, a lack of defensive skill is what makes openers so dominant in lower ranks

[rare sequoia]

Accessible but is it fun for those who don't want to open the game with 9-0/6-3/4w every game? Sure they can go out of their way to try to make an stsd or tst but is that really fun, or a viable way to play?

[chilly robin]

I’m not sure learning tki to counter sdpc is less accessible than struggling with sztostz queue

[rugged spear]

zzsstt queue (& similar):

[chilly robin]

zzztoj queue when 🥺

[cyan forge]

i love zz ss tt queue

[grand topaz]

i open with STSD pretty often when i can do it in 7+X, that is clearly not 9-0, 6-3 or even 4w

[scenic slate]

Unclean

[cyan forge]

when evil queue???

[grand topaz]

as i said: you have more options than it is being let on

[rare sequoia]

You also have those options if openers are a thing as well

[atomic echo]

I think it's an issue with modern tetris and speed because let's say you need 150% speed over your opponent to kill them.

At low rank say 1 pps you only need an extra 0.5 pps to kill (1.5 pps) whereas at high rank say 2 pps that same ratio needs an extra pps to kill (3)

[cyan forge]

eh i think its not as % based as you may think

[chilly robin]

you have not made a convincing argument that these options are more plentiful and/or reasonable than exist in 7bag

[charred walrus]

i can open with stsd in 7 bag too, why would i?

[cyan forge]

cause i said so

[grand topaz]

the idea is that you can't get an exact placement for every piece for 28 pieces. Stickspin/SDPC-spin literally determines exact placements for 21 pieces.

This makes them give significantly higher reward than difficulty of execution, as it is purely memorization.

[cyan forge]

im gonna leave cause im probably not going to play tetra league in a while

[chilly robin]

Small irrelevant caveat: sdpc spin has two paths so it is not exact

[charred walrus]

one is 100%

[chilly robin]

The bad one

[grand topaz]

Stickspin can also swap up L and J, it's effectively the same each time

[chilly robin]

Congruencies are not included, sdpc spin’s paths are not congruent

[grand topaz]

Basically at any rank below S you effectively almost always win by placing the same 21 pieces in the exact same position

[rugged spear]

this does not justify why 7+x is a good system

[cyan forge]

its time for... https://sites.google.com/view/aicy-club/sawed-baby

[grand topaz]

It proves why a change from 7-bag would improve gameplay experience for lower ranksb

[rare sequoia]

What's wrong with having an easy way to get into midgame if kill openers aren't a thing? Memorization doesn't equate to bad, and not all openers give out disproportionate rewards. What is the problem with keeping non lethal openers around?

[grand topaz]

In 7+X you literally start in midgame

[rare sequoia]

No you do not, and that does not answer my points

[chilly robin]

And yet it takes a large amount of skill to memorize and execute them consistently. Why is completely freestyling 1st bag (don’t try to tell me 7+x openers exist at the moment) inherently more reasonable than learning a memorized opener? Both require enough skill, which is obvious the in fact that most people don’t actually use a kill opener in tl

[rugged spear]

does it? would the removal of opener really improve gameplay experience for lower ranks? i'd like some opinions here

[grand topaz]

And you can build non-lethal openers in 7+X too

[sage plume]

I guess we would have to define what is a lethal and non-lethal opener. Probably a lethal opener is something that could deal 20 damage (maybe a little less?) but then what keep people from improvising a lethal opener?

[rare sequoia]

Improvising a lethal opener is called midgame skill

[sage plume]

Although people improvising one would be more experienced people so it should be fine, right?

[wanton mulch]

I think this was talked before by @pseudo heron

[chilly robin]

Are we gonna ignore this?

[scenic slate]

stop pretending you can

[grand topaz]

I opened into STSD every few games

[rugged spear]

^

[grand topaz]

And beat a 4-wider quite reliably

[charred walrus]

Ur waste t bad parity stsds are not impressing us

[sharp condor]

i clicked on one of your vods randomly and saw this, like sure it's possible to build stsd sometimes but is it worth it

[chilly robin]

Read: “I had the skill to freestyle a stsd (debatable if clean) but this is not a consistent opener”

[sharp condor]

like you give examples of when it works out, how about when it doesn't lol

[rare sequoia]

That's freestyling, the merit of an opener is that it's an easy way to transition and set up for the midgame. In 7+x freestyling is everything and that makes it harder to get into the juicy parts of the game. Isn't hard work to play the game the exact thing you stand against?

[cyan forge]

no, you dont

[rugged spear]

the rng aspect comes into play here, you literally cannot determine whether stsd is safe from the starting queues

[chilly robin]

This shit gets you killed if you tried it in X

[sharp condor]

meanwhile look at the opponent. 1pps lead with a fat 9-0 well ready to 10spike at any time (1 bag lead to get out of 7-x)

[pseudo heron]

even U!

[rare sequoia]

That's what I'm saying, there's no incentive to not 6-3

[fast briar]

chat is this clean

[cyan forge]

lowkey theres a clean 9-0 tsd donation there (besides the point)

[rugged spear]

stacking in certain ways that weren't rng before (due to 7bag guaranteeing number o fpieces) now becomes massively rng dependent, basically killing a lot of possible stacking methods

[chilly robin]

omg vertical 2L pc 🥰

[cyan forge]

would work in 2 wide mode!!!

[sage plume]

I think objectively, 7+x allows for midgame setups as openers just because midgame setups are designed to be flexible (even if it can be a bit scuffed sometimes)

But we can do the same in 7 bag too and have fixed openers

[cyan forge]

probably better/cleaner in 7 bag as well

[chilly robin]

^

[sage plume]

You have more options in 7 bag just because the fact that 7-bag is still relatively predictable means that consistent openers can be created

That's why you don't see openers in other games with random queue

[charred walrus]

This is impossible in 7 bag

image load pls

[cyan forge]

new air-tsd openers

[wanton mulch]

air tsd is the meta for zz/ss queue

[cyan forge]

true

[scenic slate]

Cont pls

[grand topaz]

Did I win? I genuinely don't remember

[cyan forge]

holy shit alt bag build

wait how did you find that so fast

[chilly robin]

:)

[grand topaz]

that's cool

[cyan forge]

you arent even playing in that game 😭

[chilly robin]

I am magic

[scenic slate]

Again how would those "openers" last more than like 10 pieces

[cyan forge]

insane

[rugged spear]

first t is on average the 3.71427th piece (if first piece is the 0th piece), so first t is later on average by like a whole piece

[chilly robin]

I read that as pi unironically

Also 0-indexing based

[fast briar]

me cant decide what to do, meanwhile Nuru:

[chilly robin]

Mild issue of tsd vision

[rare sequoia]

What does this question refer to?

[scenic slate]

The floating t spins, you might get a cool t spin but then it's just midgame

[fast briar]

eh idk if I could gain the skill to saw this

[chilly robin]

Me neither

[grand topaz]

when I get home from grocery shopping I'll check if I won that game. If it won then it was worth building

Same if I didn't lose tho because then it guarded

[sharp condor]

idk i didn't check

[scenic slate]

Even tho if your opponent could just send a quad and end you

[sharp condor]

like at this point this guy has to be trolling right lol

[cyan forge]

i saw this

[grand topaz]

I'm literally holding T how would a quad kill me

[rugged spear]

double quad:

[scenic slate]

If they were faster lol

[grand topaz]

I'm screenwatching I know they don't have that available

[cyan forge]

queue rng:

[scenic slate]

tss bruh

[rare sequoia]

That's not how that works, you spent 20 pieces building up 2 tspins. A Tetris or double Tetris would kill you there if they sent it while you were still stacking. Doing this in higher level play is not viable, so there isn't really as much variety as you claim

[cyan forge]

fill with L piece

[grand topaz]

I dunno, these strats take me to fairly high U rank

[cyan forge]

(into stsd)

[rugged spear]

well, you obviously aren't doing this every single round

[grand topaz]

What would be the fun if I did the same thing every round

[sage plume]

Honestly with good macro and a few more pieces of stacking this could probably be a 40 spike

[cyan forge]

idk you have fun after??? once your stack is established

[grand topaz]

I can't speak for X meta because I'm not in X nor have I ever been X

[grand topaz]

But I already have a stack 🤔

[rare sequoia]

It's not just X meta if your opponent lets you get away with over stacking 3 bags (22 pieces that it took to set that up) of no attack at that rank then they deserve to lose

[grand topaz]

It's everything I threw on the left lol

[chilly robin]

Question, how much tr did you go up/down by during 7+x?

[grand topaz]

I went up +75 total by the end of it

[chilly robin]

That’s 3 games which is normal variation

[grand topaz]

24401 -> 24506 -> 24476

[chilly robin]

That’s fully normal variation lol

[cyan forge]

vsapm skull

[sage plume]

I think the stack situation was okay, but after cancelling it would leave you at a disadvantage as you would have to skim and your opponent could just B2B spam more

Not that you can really stack that much in X rank, but you can certainly still create a stack like this lol

[grand topaz]

Yea I got there in 19 sets

I play too much so my RD is low

[chilly robin]

Ah neat, congrats then

[grand topaz]

I get like 12 and lose 17 or something lol

[rare sequoia]

Yeah I was playing it up a bit I admit, but that's still a heavy disadvantage for what it's worth and not viable. You have no b2b and two tspins isn't going to kill

[chilly robin]

If taking out opener maining only got you ~3 games’ worth of tr though, I wonder what midgame would get you

[sharp condor]

if you keep upstacking thenthe screenshot kind of becomes 3w vs 9-0 lol

[chilly robin]

Nah same u rank inflation is actually so bad lmao

[sharp condor]

yea like what are you going to do after the 2 tspins? you mega stacked over garbage so now you kind of have to just skim until you can reach the bottom

[sage plume]

lol a 3 wide into tetris is actually pretty good if you do happen to get it off

or you could use it to cheese your opponent with proper timing

[sharp condor]

yea i know 3w can be powerful, i just thought it was funny because it goes back to the lack of variation thing (widing and quad stacking meta)

[sage plume]

depends on a lot of factors though

[chilly robin]

I got 61 spiked by 4w on like my first 7+x tl game 💀

[rare sequoia]

The "variety" that 7+x promotes is hollow

[cyan forge]

it was not meant to promote variety to begin with

[rare sequoia]

No but that is one of Zhun's major points

[cyan forge]

yea

[sage plume]

I actually liked 7+x because I didn't have to deal with 4-5 pps openers anymore but at the same time I think there's a better solution out there

[rare sequoia]

That's the same sentiment I share, removing kill openers is definitely a priority but at the same time not all openers are bad and have the merit of variety and flow

[chilly robin]

I liked 7+x because I matched someone with 1 mil blitz and no longer felt instantly threatened

[mystic yoke]

time to move on to the next method https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392

[grand topaz]

Oh you mean random MINO mode. I misunderstood

[mystic yoke]

just initial spawn state

[grand topaz]

(ok you're actually talking about initial garbage pattern, nvm that works too tbh)

[tidal magnet]

im on mobile but can anyone test out the viability of this opener

where i try to use the "stacking" principle earlier
https://knewjade.github.io/fumen-for-mobile/#?d=v115@pgh0CeE8g0DeE8g0AeywE8glBewwF8glAeBtF8hlAe?BtE8JeAgHHgTpFeTpAeR4AeVpR4BeVphlBeQpEeglCeQpEe?glwwSpEeg0xwQpFeg0wwBtFeh0AeBtOeAgHVgwhIewhBeBt?AezwwhCeBtzwyhAe1wxhBe1wDewwFezwGewwQeAgH

this is just a basic test opener that makes a td into some trinity thing

not a real viable opener but it's to demonstrate a concept

i believe other people could have already made openers for 7+x

but ppl here havent mentioned it and dont think openers are possible iirc

so this "opener" is just a proof of concept

one that could possibly be expanded on but i dont have much hope for it

[sharp condor]

Again this is just freestyle stacking

[grand topaz]

C-spin trinity pog

i like it

[sharp condor]

It could be useful when it’s buildable but I wouldn’t call it an opener in the traditional sense

[grand topaz]

btw i did win that round, i just got home from grocery shopping and checked

[tidal magnet]

alright i guess

half half

[sharp condor]

I would probably compare it to the freestyle stsd thing earlier

[rare sequoia]

just posted another suggestion #1234939916098736249

[tidal magnet]

not a traditional opener but i would consider it one

or i would consider the problems still there with the low ranks memorizing it

i could try to teach a low rank this to see if the proof of concept works

[grand topaz]

there's a bit too many variations for your everyday low-rank to memorize it piece-by-piece i think (hence why 7+X was designed in the first place)

[tidal magnet]

no like u just need to know the placements of specific pieces and then how to freestyle the right side of the board

so technically lots of variations but in practice it's stacking

stacking is a limiting factor for opener mains though so the hypothesis might not work

[hushed oxide]

trinity test opener

[grand topaz]

yeah pretty much, but I think that's better than being told exactly where to place each piece and it works every single time, it's why I supported 7+X since the experiment

[quick sapphire]

I know I'm evidently in the minority but I actually like starting queues that include double S or Z. Hell even T. I think the complete randomness is part of what makes freestyling fun for me.

I get that isn't for everyone but I can only explain my POV.

[merry breach]

#1225191549881810965 message lol

[mystic yoke]

im 90% sure that it's without consideration of other ways to neuter kill openers

it is true that neutering kill openers is itself satisfying

[atomic gorge]

these don't really constitute openers though

they're just midgame setups with the rest of the stack filled in based on queue (this is exactly what you do in midgame)

[tidal magnet]

true

but i think the point of 7x is to make the game more skill dependent and to use the knowledge of how to actually find the setup

if low ranks know how to do these setups without skill then what is the point

[merry breach]

exactly

[tidal magnet]

i mean this makes the td trinity onoy use stacking skill rather than tspin skill

[merry breach]

7+x isnt perfect but its a step in the right direction (opinion alert)

[atomic gorge]

i can guarantee you these are not easy to do

and if they are easy to do in the opener they're comparably easy to do in midgame

[merry breach]

not necessarily

when i was doing dt cannon as an opener i had zero idea how to do it in midgame

just spent an hour or so learning the setup and it worked

[atomic gorge]

i mean obviously

but it's not the same in 7+x because you actually have to build the entire stack up

"building the setup then filling in the stack" is basically just playing midgame

[merry breach]

ehh i see your point but i wouldnt really consider it midgame if you can only do it from a fully empty board at the very start

[atomic gorge]

you can have empty or near-empty boards in midgame too, and some setups in fact rely on it

for instance STSD using a J or L piece on a flat surface

but i would hardly classify this as an opener

[mystic yoke]

oh shit i have cab blocked from announcement pings

[tidal magnet]

fair point

so this "opener" is analogous to learning one specific way to build a setup

[atomic gorge]

yea pretty much

[autumn dune]

the stack is going to be different basically every time ull do it, its still free style

[tidal magnet]

still quite powerful i must say though

normally in midgame u dont really have the chance to

[atomic gorge]

definitely can be useful yeah, you're basically just learning a use case for certain setups

[mystic yoke]

it's like finding a random boardstate, drawing out a few stacks

[atomic gorge]

at the top level you would basically never see this being employed because these are all just freestyled

[merry breach]

ah like that

[tidal magnet]

but yeah i think that if a low level learns this they will still have a better chance of winning

or any midgame setup that's reframed as an opener tbh

[merry breach]

yea cant really argue with that but you need a level of understanding to find those freestyle setups

[mystic yoke]

the grey blocks are the hardest part of these things

you wont see that skill until some U ranks and more X ranks

[autumn dune]

it is still much difficult to do than a dt cannon in 7 bag

[tidal magnet]

true

i mean but it's just one type of hole though

if u were to generalize it to any overhang that needs filling then yeah u need to be u rank

but anyways all of this is just theoretical and i need to test it

[quick sapphire]

Depends on if that use case is worth learning. Typically most openers people learn right now have a very high use case.

If a specific bag or piece layout is too rare it generally isn't worth the time dedicated to learning.

[atomic gorge]

definitely you can still benefit from strategizing to build certain setups early, but i would make a strong argument that:

• none of these are truly kill openers
• if you can't follow them up with opener continuations (which don't really exist because of the bag) you're forced to midgame anyway
• even if we assume that these are strong they're still a vast improvement over current meta

[quick sapphire]

With the unpredictability of 7+X the chances of finding a specific bag layout is far lower than standard 7 bag.

[autumn dune]

try to learn a kill opener for 7+x is going to be so inconvenient that no one is going to

[merry breach]

would it even be possible to lab one out considering the brutal unpredictability

[quick sapphire]

Which is a net positive.

[slender torrent]

?

I was actually thinking on making 7+x mech openers

i mean

It would require a lot of reading queue and pieces placed, but def not impossible

[autumn dune]

that sounds like everything but kill opener

[slender torrent]

I mean

tsd tsd ||tsd with rng|| quad

[tidal magnet]

please do it fr 🙏

make sure it's as predictable as possible

[autumn dune]

still not kill unless opponent is doing bad (like everything else)

[slender torrent]

it would be just counted 4-5 with mech on top

[slender torrent]

if we are talking about High U and X, yeah ig

[autumn dune]

mech works if u speed abuse a lot unless ur very low rank, if i do dt at 4 pps into 9-0 and kill a SS its still not a kill opener

[slender torrent]

I mean, the entire point of mech is bc speed abuse is literally passive

also mech is a kill opener to the opponent and to the user

[autumn dune]

🧠

anyways, to return to the topic of the thread, I have the feeling that the continuations are going to be so many that even if you manage to learn them all its still not going to be practical to use it, but i dont really know

[quick sapphire]

I think there is gonna be far too many continuations to learn either way.

[mystic yoke]

to the point where you're learning freestyle

[arctic bane]

e

[boreal drift]

Remember that this thread now has Slowmode enabled!

[runic coral]

ppl actually tried to make openers for 7+x?? that's lame

[golden drum]

4w might become a bigger issue once people start adjusting to the 7+x, after a few tests it does feel like 4w / 7-2 stacking is indirectly buffed

[lethal bloom]

It is fun

[boreal drift]

I honestly thought that it was longer than 15 seconds, I'm gonna be completely real with you here

[quick sapphire]

Did you expect anything less?

Once an opener main. Always an opener main.

[red blaze]

It wasn't heard of frequently that 4w problem will rise from this and there's only a day to conclude that's the case. But just in case, I think one way to kind of mitigate it if it becomes a problem esp for lower ranks is to modify the cleanliness of the garbage based on x amount of lines sent. Very clean garbage similar to phase 1 of TE:C would do it, and I think around 30-40 lines sent from either (but not both) to return to the regular garbage cleanliness state. The widers cannot choose to stall that way, at the beginning at least

[golden drum]

they can just slow down their 4w downstack to make it still kinda messy garbage

[open lion]

my excuse would be that i like no midgame

and like short game

[boreal drift]

[quick sapphire]

[quick sapphire]

Well I like no opener. And looong games.

[hybrid depot]

wait but clean garbage fuels combo multipliers

[mystic yoke]

people dont like dealing with cheese but are ok with clean (if they can process it)
it's a very subjective thing

[quick sapphire]

It's so depressing when you get several wins in a row followed by several losses in a row. So demotivating.

[dusky rose]

how's it going 7+x thread

[quick sapphire]

They're getting very close.

[long palm]

I actually unreacted to the post, kinda very neutral about 7+X now

[dusky rose]

what do chopsticks mean

[spring minnow]

debate around the topic has mostly been said, people are awaiting osks decision 👍

[wanton mulch]

yeah I think more conversation (other than mentioning alternatives for 7+X) are already said before, until more experiments are done

[dire osprey]

has anyone collected the main problems with openers? from low to high rank?

[wanton mulch]

I mean, I can do a summary for you, but its probably biased and better for you to scroll down 11k messages(or use the search option to only find messages that includes 'ranks'&'openers')

[dreamy talon]

Maybe someone could collate all the arguments nicely tho

[dire osprey]

Thoughts on these?

Anything else anyone would add

[mystic yoke]

the problem is that it scales from warping lower ranks to far less a problem in higher ranks
where "higher ranks" is high U and onwards

[dire osprey]

If i make a poll with these reasons, is there anything you would add/change?

[mystic yoke]

you should reorder the problems from "i cant play against this" to "it's annoying to play against this" as a loose sorting

"execution vs stacking" is not clear at all what you are saying, that's already broken down by the other ticks

[dire osprey]

I'm thinking in a situation where both players do a (kill) opener the first one to md loses rather than being disadvantaged going into midgame

[mystic yoke]

you arent really picking apart "repetitiveness" as a problem with all these definitions

[dire osprey]

good shout

[mystic yoke]

or rather, i would add that

[dreamy talon]

its not too strong of an argument bc the same goes with downstacking, its just less apparent

[dire osprey]

hence the execution, but i agree stacking is not well defined

[mystic yoke]

downstacking is not repeated

[dreamy talon]

inf downstacking

[dire osprey]

whether you agree or not, in a poll i think it's a valid arguement someone would choose

[mystic yoke]

that is not repeated

[dreamy talon]

fair

[dire osprey]

outside of the scope of this

[mystic yoke]

repeating singleyou is exactly the same outcome every O, downstacking has ebb and flow

[boreal drift]

We'd be stretching the definition repetition a lot more than comfortable by calling infdsing "repeated"

[dreamy talon]

what about when u get sent lines and change route, or no early o so u adapt

[wanton arrow]

Potential new openers

[boreal drift]

Downstacking still takes skill, doing sdpc/whatever-else-opener takes memorization, two different things

[dreamy talon]

ye thats fair

[dire osprey]

I like this sentiment, but I would say the game doesn't incentivise branching your openers that much, and when you do it's often not because your opponent interacted with you

[mystic yoke]

depends on the players you look at
single you is the most warping opener against adapting

[boreal drift]

I'm just saying 7+x would introduce a 1-bag opener meta /j

[dire osprey]

an ideal change for me would be something that makes the opening phase more interactive without killing them off entirely

[boreal drift]

That's a very interesting idea, I have no idea how you'd execute it but very interesting nonetheless

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392

[dire osprey]

yeah i want to make a separate thread dedicated to 7+x alternatives. but i want to start by identifying what the problems 7+x is trying to address in the first place, hence the poll

[winged tartan]

i frown upon combination requests, can these all just be separate

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289

what do you mean by combination requests?

[mystic yoke]

what requests are you talking about

[winged tartan]

i mean you know, when can this thread actually be closed

[dire osprey]

zap means collecting all alternatives into one

[winged tartan]

at some point people are just going to make "tiny request" threads that just have disorganized random ass messages in there

it's not trackable

[mystic yoke]

so you want combined requests in this channel or what?

[winged tartan]

you can make them separate threads, but don't throw out five very different solutions in one thread

[mystic yoke]

ah, good thing I linked my threads

[winged tartan]

yeah that's the goal

[wet vine]

how to check my threads, i feel like i didn't make any

[winged tartan]

someone might agree with #1234909644003213392 but not #1233972737576276040

[winged tartan]

all you can do is search your own message history

[mystic yoke]

the whole point of my lobby thread was to distill general recommendations into specific feature requests 💪 I am so smart

[dire osprey]

oh gotcha i didn't think about the 's

[wet vine]

me when i inf ds: but yeah true

[rare sequoia]

should i have kept my opener nerf request or do you think its better as a thread?

[winged tartan]

yeah it's better as a thread

[rare sequoia]

gotcha, thanks

[fathom walrus]

that's not fair to opener main players

[tough wagon]

• game gets stale after a while, so sone changes time to time is nice maybe

[severe spindle]

But without the opener phase midgame is stale and it kinda just sucks..

[tough wagon]

theres still an opener phase even with 7+x

just not memorised (for now) and more room to use creativity and vision, tho lower ranks would maybe just play sprint

[severe spindle]

It feels stale and dead tho..

[mystic yoke]

it's far less vision in high X, just sprinting and far less reward for being efficient

[spring minnow]

im a lower rank 😢

[mystic yoke]

who was it earlier, Anber and winterfrost? who also vouched sprint meta

[tough wagon]

honestly just lacking vision imo, tested with bots, it's still easily 1app and tspin spammable, at most maybe one t waste at the start

[open lion]

i realized that not playing against openers makes it not fun cause u don't have to panic at the start to survive so I just go slower than I could be and its bassically just tetris(prob bad opinion but idk how to explain)

with only quads and tspins and like no weird setups(at least when I played in u)

[tough wagon]

isn't that normal

[open lion]

it'd just be b2b bassically decides most things every single round in 7x

to me just feels kinda plain how its just like u wait for your opponent to send and u counterspike or you get more b2b and kill them so you lose another option to kill on top of that(but i do understand that ppl that cant live openers would be mad cause they'd just automatically lose)

[severe spindle]

This is what i mean i like the extra excitement of having to find ways to counter this so that i can feel energized at the start of a round

Midgame stakes just dont feel as high even if theyre the same it just feels different and deflated

Also i dont think all openers sound be gone like tki and mko should stay and stuff but the lowerranks r abusing stuff like sdpc and stickspin ik this is a problem but by using 7+x as the solution it just doesnt feel right and it creates many more problems on it own

I was playing during 7+x and honestly it was just cheese infds 4w repeat or 9-0/6-3 b2b

It was very repetitive and boring as well as rather tasking for me to actually tl. I also got tired of it much quicker then i usually would as i dont have that little pump at the start

I understand 7bag isnt for everyone but nor is 7+x and i would like for 7bag to stay so that midgame feels higher risk

I also feel that 7bag has been a staple in the game and this change might hurt the overall community with a bunch of people quitting

[mystic yoke]

quitting is not a consideration

[severe spindle]

Just like cheese or infds or stride or plonk openers like lst and stuff are still a playstyle

[mystic yoke]

the concerns should be solely based on effects on gameplay

[severe spindle]

Yea this makes sense

[tough wagon]

so from what i see the problem is that u dont receive enough attack at the start? is that the problem of the game or the player

[severe spindle]

But taking away openers is taking away part of the game and it just doesn’t feel complete even after winning the matches i dont feel accomplished or happy that i won its just kinda like yea ok whatever for me. I feel like that openers should be nerfed but completely removing them is a stretch for me.

[tough wagon]

what if the first bag remained 7bag, but then +x for a couple bags then return back

7+7+x uh what

[winged tartan]

may as well be #1233972737576276040

[mystic yoke]

you mentioned bot vision as a testimony to being efficient in 7+x but

that rly rly doesnt work when the X meta becamesprinting

[severe spindle]

I need to sleep now gn

[tough wagon]

not really, people can still play efficient

[hybrid depot]

can

people didnt like it and tried to escape it as fast as possible

[tough wagon]

it's cuz lack of vision + this system is new and not much tech developed yet

[mystic yoke]

7+x was supposed to kill openers across ranks, not freestyle
and accounting bot vision when X ranks are sprinting, and the problem audience is U ranks and lower is a signficantly smaller factor

please make point in gameplay, not random sweeping opinion

[tough wagon]

smh bro deleting their own comment

[mystic yoke]

well it's fine

[hybrid depot]

wait to clarify. do we want to kill the buildability of openers, or do we want to make them worse

[mystic yoke]

remove kill openers, potentially* preserve opener transitions into midgame

[tough wagon]

to me previous system didnt have a problem, but current system also dont have a problem. the thing was the previous system got stale for me cuz i played thousand of games so i like changes

ok not "current" but 7+x

[open lion]

The bag was made to kill opener we dont know what ppl want for now

[winged tartan]

honestly between the two i think it'd be more impactful to kill the buildability

i don't think it matters what gets nerfed, having a guaranteed guide that authoratively brings you 35 pieces of high octane line clears will never be irrelevant

[mystic yoke]

I think ive hashed this idea a few times, it's repetitiveness that's the problem

[rare sequoia]

theres a big lack of variety with pure 7+x as it is now

[open lion]

I think you can kill buildability just don’t overkill it making it so they’re entirely not possible

[tough wagon]

6+O, o piece always come last in bag /s

[hybrid depot]

i've liked how in te:c you technically can make any opener you want while they're just not practical typically
unfortunately idt this translates into tetrio very well

[signal crypt]

zone mechanics allows strong survivability, tetr.io is just extremely volatile with multiplier and b2b

[dire osprey]

TEC loses a lot by not having any way to influence cheese *apart from timing with phases

[mystic yoke]

TEC at the top is literally 6-3 until you control the phases

[tough wagon]

what if 7+x but give 1.5 multiplier for the first 3 bags to encourage playing efficiently

[mystic yoke]

that's acknowledging that it's doing more than killing opener

i dont like reverse margin time as well

[tough wagon]

make I piece not appear in the first 3 bags

[signal crypt]

thats promoting inf ds gameplay even further

[tough wagon]

only get pieces

[signal crypt]

wtf so troll

[winged tartan]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/673303546564968566/772646450953846815/02_022023.gif?ex=6632f894&is=6631a714&hm=88f8d2c187c4a7fd42b97136b34c8cfcb5109969cf0f9a5422012d3634f690cd&

[mystic yoke]

i just dont like things that also impact freestyling

[tough wagon]

people crutch 7 bag too much ngl

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392 the most this option does is "impact the freestyling off of an empty board"

I think you're mislabelling "crutching" in modern tetris

[tough wagon]

u can stack bad because u are guarenteed the other pieces, with weirder bags like 14 bag u are forced to look at queue more

[mystic yoke]

you say that, but I see everyone through U rank unable to even queueread 7 bag

7 bag doesnt grant magic crutches

[tough wagon]

even at high ranks, people build way too many t spin setups than they have T pieces, or overstack so much that their stack just dies

i think stuff like 14 bag only amplify theses stacking mistakes

[mystic yoke]

so you are saying "you can play bad because pieces are guaranteed" but no players are even playing to 7 bag's limits

[mystic yoke]

i can imagine this in opener, but it has no credibility in midgame

[tough wagon]

in 7 bag u get bailed a lot more easily tho, but regardless, i dont think it's too relevant to 7+x discussion

[mystic yoke]

It's detailing whether the problems lie in bags or atks, should be fine

[tough wagon]

honestly there isnt much i would call a problem from the game stand point, it's mainly just skill issue from human players

[mystic yoke]

only to a point, but does distill alot

[tough wagon]

people complaining about openers are just skill issue, people complaining about no openers/risk or whatever is also just opponent skill issue

the only valid argument ngl is one or the other is more boring but that's all just subjective opinions

[mystic yoke]

that's the least credible of changes to gameplay

[sage plume]

Seems like opener mains would be happy if they could still use their openers

Non-opener mains would be happy if the opener didn't kill, but not necessarily if the openers didn't exist 🤔

[mystic yoke]

One common mistake the past few days is mislabelling who is an opener main
i.e "everyone who disagrees is a opener main" and so on

[sage plume]

I suppose it's more like 7 bag vs 7+X fans

What happens if we happen to reduce the damage for the first 20-30 seconds? Or change that time period based on rank?

[dire osprey]

Somewhat relevant so here -
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSft4hC7yyQAjsnpH9l81_uDOH91u1hbgHqzPj6Id2KXbJaOuw/viewform
a poll asking opinions on openers

[mystic yoke]

extended sdpc

[daring hill]

is the point of 7+x to make opener less predictable?

[mystic yoke]

almost impossible under 7+x bag
but the point is to break the opener strength across lower ranks

[dire osprey]

I like the idea of making openers easier to disrupt, but less punishing when you don't/can't

[lethal bloom]

i liked 7+x tbh, it makes tss and freestyle players more viable

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392
https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289 here are some things

[sage plume]

I suppose that even if they did extended sdpc, it's not like you can't just upstack a ton

If they are waiting for the 20-30 seconds to end, then that's plenty of time to build something that either cancels or pressures or cheeses or 4 wides, right?

And if they send within the time period, then it doesn't do much?

[mystic yoke]

who's they? hm?

[sage plume]

Opponent

[rare sequoia]

what about the time period not feeling like anything because nothing will do anything to anyone?

[daring hill]

it sounds like theres gonna be some inconsistencies across, etc, not sure how you can determine time limits for opener

[mystic yoke]

this current situation is premising "people can repeat their openers" right, i still dont like that it's possible

7+x bags affected freestyling is why i dislike it

[sage plume]

I suppose based on the average speed of the ranks maybe

[daring hill]

7+x is too inconsistent in my experience

[mystic yoke]

but that it kills all openers isnt the worst

[sage plume]

But I guess that becomes an issue eventually with higher ranks

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392 this can be made consistent across all ranks

[dire osprey]

Maybe attacks are reduced for the first [x] line sends/no. of line clears and this nullifies after [10] secs

[mystic yoke]

again, it's free sdpcspin

that opener avoids all the shorterm opener nerfs

[dire osprey]

The line clears/sends are shared between both players

[daring hill]

spike openers after x line clears would be op

[mystic yoke]

basing it on a high enough line clear that sdpcspin will fail means that it will benefit sprinting quite signficantly

[daring hill]

lol is the urge to nerf opener partially due to sdpc

[mystic yoke]

it's almost entirely singleyou

[sharp condor]

yea i haven't really seen much complaint even close to the level sdpc/stickspin complaint is reaching

[sage plume]

While (time < 30)
{
If (opener would kill opponent) { negate damage; }
}

💀

Actually that would be kinda funny for a few rounds but then people would start 4 widing

Although it seems a bit unreasonable

[mystic yoke]

well it's just a bad idea

[sage plume]

I mean, it would technically solve the problem

[mystic yoke]

it exacerbates speed and upping b2b lvl

[winged tartan]

if they can just stall until full damage is unlocked then like wouldn't the regular attack power of "kill openers" just cancel the ½ upstack damage lol

cancel it and still have devasting attacks coming up i mean

[mystic yoke]

time based atk reduction is bad for that and other reasons yes

[tough wagon]

rather than by time, by piece is probably better idea (not that i like nerfing attacks)

[dire osprey]

If it's by piece, share the piece limit between players

So the opener blitzer doesnt kill the opp while they have reduced defence

[mystic yoke]

Why should I, the faster player, fulfill requirements for my opponent

[winged tartan]

yeah that's some magical tetris challenge bullcrap lol

[sharp condor]

in any case i haven't seen a solution where reducing damage at the start doesn't just directly buff extended sdpc

[dire osprey]

I prefer line clear based

[mystic yoke]

it's the same exact scenario

[dire osprey]

yup idk

[sharp condor]

2 problems. 1) first person to reach x lines wins. 2) low line limit = extended op, high line limit = literal sprint in TL

[dire osprey]

1 - not if the line clear limit is shared between players, but i agree with 2

[sage plume]

The random minos thing is so far the most reasonable approach

I mean, openers will naturally do various amount of damage and we can't really decide who will choose a more damaging opener over another. Unless we want to nerf one player over another which is not fair

Like, how do we even distinguish a kill opener from a non-kill one? Do we have something that can objectively define that? Like if it requires improvisation after the first bag?

[sharp condor]

i think it's fairly easy to distinguish kill opener from non-kill opener

[dire osprey]

I agree, I think any kind of *hardcoded opening phase affects game flow and identity too much and is charsys territory

[mystic yoke]

killing within planned bags yes?

[sharp condor]

most of the time you can just use the eye test, and if that's not rigorous enough then just look at the intent of the opener. So if the opener contains a mega spike at the end then it's a kill-opener, as it's designed to kill the opponent

[dire osprey]

i.e. character A is good in early game but gets worse as game goes on etc

[mystic yoke]

"kill openers" to me also have the trait of "trying to avoid interaction with the opponent"

it's why stickspin goes from a kill opener to stickplonk as the ranks go up

[sage plume]

I mean, is ms2 (or any td opener) a kill opener? what stops king crimson from being a kill opener, or regular dt cannon?

[mystic yoke]

MS2 PC is a very high counterplay kill opener, to that extent

[sharp condor]

ms2 is a kill opener because it is designed to mega spike the opponent and kill them

regular dt cannon isn't very good in tetr.io because I think there is no real purpose for it, but it's definitely not a kill opener

[sage plume]

If I do these fast, then they would kill

Perhaps it's the amount of speed advantage that you need for it to kill?

[sharp condor]

no clue about king crimson because i don't think i've seen it used as opener in my life

[sharp condor]

how often is even 6pps DT going to kill in X rank

[sage plume]

Unlikely as it is only 10 damage (unless you powerstack or get garbage)

[rare sequoia]

The main thing is the large spike and low setup cost in either speed and/or risk imo

[mystic yoke]

when i hear dt cannon, i assume perfect dt or cspin cont

[rare sequoia]

And if it goes into dpc looping reliably then that probably also qualifies

[sharp condor]

i would characterise a kill opener as having a mega spike intended to kill the opponent there and then, which is contrasted with b2b openers (tki, mko) which are intended to allow you to get into familiar midgame board states

[sage plume]

Hmm, let's consider that

Anything with multiple PCs, TDs, basically most things that allow for 15+ damage (as a starting number) can be considered a killing opener?

[sharp condor]

if you say 15+ damage as in 15 spike then sure, but i don't like quantifying it this way

[dire osprey]

Non sequitir idea, but how about instead of attack reduction, board height starts at 24+ and then reduces gradually after time/pieces/line clears?

[sage plume]

Hmmm, most viable openers already have killing potential anyways. It's basically just how much raw pressure there is that makes something more OP than another

And as basically all (decent) openers fall under that logic, it's hard to simply pinpoint on nerfing certain openers when pressure basically applies with everything

[sharp condor]

look at my distinction between openers like tki/mko with kill openers

sure tki has killing pressure but that's not really what it's made for, the intent is to get into midgame with a familiar board you can midgame with

and you don't really see much complain around tki/mko and whatever

it's really unfun to lose in 10 seconds to a 15 spike you don't know how to stop, but dying to tsd chain just feels like dying to midgame anyway (the threat of dying in opener to tki is drastically lower, especially in lwoer ranks)

[rare sequoia]

This doesn't really solve the problem at lower ranks

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289 Zap asked earlier to bring other types of suggestions outside 7+X to an exterior thread

[boreal drift]

I feel like we're moving onto the topic of openers instead of #1225191549881810965

[dire osprey]

mb ill resend it there

[mystic yoke]

I mean we all are, ill link all

[sharp condor]

7+x would be implented to solve openers, so idk how you would be able to discuss changes without talking about openers

[boreal drift]

Fair

[rare sequoia]

Oh yeah cad thoughts on my latest comment in #1233972737576276040 ?

It's probably not as simple as that but I think it's interesting to discuss

[mystic yoke]

I think nerfing PC atk is a boon in any system

[rare sequoia]

maybe in that thread though not here

[sage plume]

After some thinking, I think that it would be very infeasible to implement something that would nerf kill openers while leaving non-kill openers intact

[rare sequoia]

Can you elaborate?

[sage plume]

Well, humans can determine what a kill opener is and what is, but a computer is stupid and would need a formula or machine learning to determine that. How would we determine whether something is a kill opener or not? Well, maybe we can look at the attack pattern of an opener, like sdpc-spin. TSS -> TSD -> TD. And we'll assume that it could nerf the damage of the TD because the computer recognizes it as an opener

But if I made that same setup but improvised, then it would also get nerfed because the attack pattern is the same even though we made it with our brain

So maybe we could determine things by the pieces that are used, and see if it matches the piece structure of an already existing opener. That could work, but if I happen to get into midgame PC, end up on 1st bag, and then do the opener then, will it get nerfed (probably shouldn't because it's technically midgame, but with our formula the system would nerf it because it's the same piece placements)

To be able to determine whether something is an opener or not, we can either input what is a kill opener or use machine learning. I think if we just had the system know the exact setup of what a certain opener looks like, then it would be okay at keeping lower ranks nerfed. But people will always make variations of an opener or a new opener to adapt, and there would have to be constant updates to the system to make sure that we would have no more kill openers, which would be tedious and would not fix things completely

And let's say that we used machine learning to determine what is a kill opener or not. The system is unlikely to ever be 100% correct, so if you ever happen to improvise a setup that should kill but gets nerfed, it would be frustrating and make things unintentionally rng based

I feel like the hassle of implementing this feature would sorta outweigh the benefits, unless there is a more optimal way.

We shouldn't assume that it's impossible, but we need to think of a better approach

Basically if we have the formula/code for determining what is a kill opener and not, then we can solve the issue

[rare sequoia]

I think you're thinking and going about this the wrong way

It's not the kill "openers" themselves if you will but the lethal spike part

For setup openers like tki, all we need is a reliable way to reach a good board state and b2b like the ones they provide, not necessarily their attack or the specific openers themselves, as long as new ones can be made that fill their gaps

This is for a smoother transition to midgame and extra variety than 7+x would offer, while also solving the main issue implementing it is trying to do

[sage plume]

I mean, if we focus on the lethal spike part, then how should we distinguish in the code the lethal spike of stickspin with the lethal spike of an improvised 6-3 powerstack?

What I'm proposing is if there's a way to keep openers and 7 bag keeping the game basically the same while still nerfing the killing blow

[rare sequoia]

Why do we need to distinguish at all? It's the opener phase of the game, it should be used for setting up the midgame

People's main issue is that games end too quickly, if you're able to consistently make a kill spike in the opening against a similarly skilled opponent, that's an issue

Well I guess too quickly and effortlessly

[sage plume]

Ah but you see, people have different beliefs about the opener phase. It's intended to go into midgame, but some people don't really care about that. Some people play just because they think midgame is too hard, or opener is just more fun than anything, or the ego boost that comes from going fast and feeling efficient. A lot of reasons. And because of that people have a lot of argument in this thread.

I suppose that yeah, technically it is a skill issue in some regards.

The games end too quickly because the kill openers provide a way to kill without needing to think. And the kill comes from the spike. And to solve that, we could either remove most openers entirely or we can nerf the opener (or maybe another solution too)

And how do we nerf the opener? By reducing damage on the lethal blow. But how do we do that?

[rare sequoia]

The problem is that as it is now they're too oppressive to other playstyles, essentially having no counterplay in lower ranks besides fighting fire with fire or rolling over and dying

[rare sequoia]

By making it a non-lethal blow (nerfing damage), preventing the lethal blow (not allowing one to be set up through memorization), or making it easier to defend against the lethal blow (buffing defense)

[tough wagon]

plot twist 7+x thread was specifically designed to be controversial to farm engagement

[wet vine]

lmao

[rare sequoia]

doesn't really contribute to the conversation

[tough wagon]

everyone is yapping the same thing over and over again, in the end it's really just personal opinion

u can never keep everyone happy, i propose just do seasons and try everything

[rare sequoia]

That's what a debate and discussion is

It's a complicated topic so there's lots of discussion, it can't be solved so simply like you propose

[dire osprey]

maybe to attack sdpc specifically nerf tss?

[rare sequoia]

The problem isn't the TSS it's the spike

If you're talking about extended sdpc spin

[dire osprey]

a b2b rework seems like overdoing it

Yeah i meant extended

[rare sequoia]

oh to attack sdpc, mm idk tbh

Wanna continue in #1234943910430773289 ?

[dire osprey]

I think we should move this to https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289

[sage plume]

Which is true. That's basically what the meta is. Or more specifically, the optimization of openers.

I'd say let's think of it like this:

• Some people are just choosing suboptimal openers over the meta openers for one reason or another (maybe because meta feels cheap)
• The main issue is the lack of counterplay, as you mentioned. And that tends to come from the fact that combined with speed, meta openers have incredible damage potential and burst pressure and literally require less effort compared to most other openers like TKI

If a character in a fighting game is too OP, we just nerf their stats and call it a day. If kill openers were a bug or unintended, then it would be fixed.

But meta openers are literally an example of how the current tetrio combo system is being maximize to its limits. It's like in osu where farm maps abuse the pp system while feeling easier than most maps. There's technically nothing wrong with how much damage these openers do. And unless we do some board rework then it's not like we can change the formation of the opener. If anything, it's the damage system that even allows this, and now it delves into a larger issue.

[sage plume]

Nerfing and preventing the lethal blow would require tetrio to know that it came from an opener. We know that some stuff is memorized and some stuff is improvised just by looking at it, but what should the tetrio code look for to detect that?

[dire osprey]

openers are like pre-optimised for meta just follow these instructions ✅

[sage plume]

Making it easier to defend against the lethal blow would be an interesting thought to investigate

[rare sequoia]

That's why there's some merit in these options, which the other threads delve into

Nerfing damage neutralizes kill openers' main intention while normal openers aren't affected in the same way

Preventing them (for example by having a reliable 1st bag and less reliable following bags) prevents them from being effortlessly abused by those without the skill to play like that normally

And increasing defense allows easier counterplay

[rare sequoia]

It doesn't need to be so specific, we know all openers happen within a certain portion of the game so applying these to that portion would work, you just need to identify the best way to quantify that portion

[dire osprey]

we either make the instructions near useless through a mino spawn or bag modification or change the meta via b2b rework, kill spike change, or other change

[dire osprey]

i have an idea for this but it doesn't belong in this thread so i will put it in https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234943910430773289

[rare sequoia]

please do

[sage plume]

The identification part is the important part lol

Although I wonder if this conversation should continue in Opener Nerfs

Surely osk will figure it out

[rare sequoia]

Perhaps? The main thing we're discussing stems from your initial assertation that it's infeasible to nerf only kill openers and not setup openers

if you think we should move we can

[sage plume]

Hmm, good point. I suppose that it's still related to 7/7+X bag so we can continue here. I do wonder what other people have to say about it too

[rare sequoia]

Yeah I'm just saying nerfing both kill openers and setup openers is a win because it removes the main function of the kill openers but not the main function of the setup openers

I guess the how is what the other threads are for

Doesn't mean it's infeasible just difficult, it doesn't need to be as advanced as you were saying

[sage plume]

Yeah, that's one approach. If the entirety of openers is being nerfed then that is a lot easier than trying to nerf only a small portion of openers

[rare sequoia]

Also the reason I think this isn't a great solution is that it seems like there'd just be long periods where only one group is happy and can play what they want, essentially making people want to only come on when their mode is on, and the long waits would probably make them disinterested and go elsewhere
Doesn't really promote the growth of the game either, rather than finding ways to improve it and shape it into the best game possible it's a bandaid fix that leaves all the problems there

All in all probably too much of a hassle for the everyday player even if the interval periods are small imo

[grand topaz]

I would happily fill out this form

[grand topaz]

in TE:C your two options are either a very fast c-spin pc or 6-3, the others aren't really worth because of SDF losing time compared to zone gauge fill

[grand topaz]

SDPC/DPC mains will just loop the opener until it actually kills. Nerfing the opener alone isn't going to remove blitz strats from vs

[dire osprey]

Form is pinned in #1234943910430773289 message

[quick sapphire]

I was having a think today about the 'potential' nerfing of openers with the changes to the bag system and it brought me to overwatch.

This situation we're in with tetrio isn't really that much different from something like a gun or ability being op.

This is simply a balance patch.

It's just a question now of how osk proceeds with that 'patch'.

[wet vine]

After losing 6-7 (6 of their win was with pc loop 4+ pps) to someone that pc loop, I- I think I might like this now 😭

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392

you're claiming that the fix to openers involves changing the bag system, which is false

your rewrite makes sense, agree

[grand topaz]

however there's no problem with a rework if it improves the general gameplay at all levels + even makes the game more accessible for newcomers (the arguments for "7-bag is guideline" doesn't really hold for that as PPT, TE:C and jstris aren't nearly as popular as any classic variants were, and T99 is also switch-bound)

[mystic yoke]

this is correct, but 7+x bag is not that rework

[grand topaz]

Why not? I encountered no problems

Reliance on 7-bag assumes knowledge of modern guideline, which a lot of people coming to the game don't even have

[mystic yoke]

the whole discussion yesterday and before

[mystic yoke]

what and if people dont even know quads have special score do you think we should remove them?

knowledge isnt the baseline behind affecting 7bag

[grand topaz]

There's a significant difference to getting 4 damage, vs getting 23 damage from memorizing 28 placements and you know the two aren't even remotely comparable

[mystic yoke]

that's cos 7bag, isolated from openers, provides the player control over their stack

[grand topaz]

That's why you get 7-bag back after 35 pieces in 7+X

[mystic yoke]

Openers are a consequence of perfect control over the initial boardstate (for which i suggest the other thread)

[grand topaz]

I mean I would be able to play even with randomized initial garbage, just make sure it can't allow for stickspinning over the initial state

[mystic yoke]

the problem with openers is not "5 bags" but just a onetime starting state

[rugged spear]

c

[mystic yoke]

just waiting on Osk, he already implemented this once for an Iris tournament

[grand topaz]

7+X makes it more reliably ensured that you can't do memorized openers easily

[rugged spear]

yes but it's not the only way

if 7+x is good because it counters openers, why would it be any different from putting pairs or total mayhem in TL? we need to justify 7+x for reasons other than countering openers, because there are other systems that counter openers

[mystic yoke]

tytytyty

[grand topaz]

I mean, I also play total mayhem sometimes, technically it's kinda fun but it's better to have at least some systematic approach if you want to be able to plan ahead, otherwise it devolves a lot into waiting over 1 spike when opponent gets 4 Z pieces

[mystic yoke]

that's exactly the reasoning behind disliking 7+x bag for 5 bags

[rugged spear]

that's what i'm trying to express, the first 35 bags are pretty rng dependent

[mystic yoke]

35 bags

[grand topaz]

Pieces

[grand topaz]

But it's only slightly pseudorandom. You get every piece over 35 pieces.

Ok here's a bag idea: remove 1 O from the first bag, remove another O from the 3rd bag

[mystic yoke]

i dont like targetted nerfs, should be systematic

[grand topaz]

Technically that's why osk created 7+X it is very systematic

[mystic yoke]

It was definitely an attempt, but it can go further in affecting only all openers and not freestyle

[grand topaz]

... You Literally start with midgame freestyle with 7+X

[sharp condor]

i hope you understand that not everyone has the same experience as you

[rugged spear]

and back to where we began

[tired flame]

I see you saying that, but I still think most people will just stride out of 7+x

[mystic yoke]

4history bags but it's chat messages

[grand topaz]

but that's also not really a difference compared to what is happening, stickspin into 9-0 is extremely common at 24.5k

[mystic yoke]

snap back in time

[primal gale]

stickspin into 9-0??? at 24.5???? nah

[grand topaz]

The fact that people "sprint pieces away" just means they got to midgame phase beyond the opener. They're already doing that

[rugged spear]

we're not denying that it doesnt start with freestyle, but the fact that the bags are different from true midgame is what i am concerned about

[grand topaz]

2.8 pps 9-0 yes

[sharp condor]

yea ngl i don't think i've ever seen stickspin into 9-0 lol

[grand topaz]

aren't the bags regular 7-bag in 7+X after 35 pieces?

[mystic yoke]

that's pretty low rank U to skim a stickspin into 9-0

[rugged spear]

hello? the first 35 pieces?

[grand topaz]

That's honestly not a lot of pieces if the game doesn't end in 10 seconds lmao

[rugged spear]

but it is pieces that are part of the game

[grand topaz]

With 2 pps you get to the regular 7-bag in 18 seconds

[tired flame]

Stickspin is non existetnt at low U TBH, it's always been sdpc-spin into either 5-4 or 6-3 stacking

[grand topaz]

Lower ranks don't get demolished by openers in 10 seconds, high ranks just stack like they normally would anyway, win win

[rugged spear]

let's say 90s for an "average" "midgame" round. that is still 20% of the game

[grand topaz]

I dunno, enter21 does it at every opportunity and so does.. Uh, lady_yukihana or whatever the name was, but there were others. It's honestly common in 24.2k

[sharp condor]

bro i reviewed like 3 of enter21's sets and i did not see it once 😭

[mystic yoke]

lamy does normal plonking after stick

[tired flame]

I've fought enter21 a few times, and that's a lie

[rugged spear]

i think it has to do with the part where zhun gets speedgapped easily

[grand topaz]

Maybe you fought them in a friend match

[tired flame]

In TL 3+ times

[mystic yoke]

i've played lamy like thrice in TL

[tired flame]

Also reviewed Enter21's #921928025929576468 2+ times . . . it's not stickspin

[mystic yoke]

The iterated issue with 7+x bag is overimpact, and zhun alrdy said he could accept a different option like the garbage mino mode
it's just bad look at this point

[tired flame]

What do you mean middle of a bag? I dont get it

[mystic yoke]

removing X pieces from first bag is just a PC number

[sharp condor]

ok but is pc spam really a problem? i haven't really seen people complain about it and it's pretty rare/high-skill

[mystic yoke]

not really, it was just +1 i think

[quick sapphire]

I don't think removing "x" amount of pieces from first bag would solve anything at all.

[sharp condor]

if you force start the game at 4th pc every game (remove 2 pieces) then it's like immensely harder to pc spam and you have to do 4 freestyle pcs to get bcak to 1st, and most other openers would be dead with 2 pieces missing from first bag

the number of players who can 4th pc reliably is already very low so i don't really see this being an issue, especially at lower ranks

[rugged spear]

do you mind elaborating? i dont see how it wouldnt

[mystic yoke]

but yeah zhun alrdy said "i could do something else" this is a bit lingering on 7+x bag

[grand topaz]

I have an idea, what if we add the 3x3 O block from the SSL into the first 2 bags
Or add 2 of them to the first bag
suddenly no 7-bag openers

[sharp condor]

This will not remove openers and make free styling harder

[primal gale]

jumpsquare in TL???? I hate this idea

[grand topaz]

of course you would hate it 😅

[mystic yoke]

if we're doing alternate suggestions, can we use #1234943910430773289

[sharp condor]

Like all these gimmick things just aren’t fun in a competitive environment

[primal gale]

not only is the jumpsquare impossible to work with, it's hard to tell whether you've got the jumpsquare or a normal O when it's just in your queue

[grand topaz]

that's an issue with the color scheme, it could easily be made white (there is no white colored piece) but yes that belongs in the other thread

[quick sapphire]

Plz give us some news osk! 🙏

[sage plume]

The reduced damage should help a good amount with downstacking in general though... or maybe a little bit

[quick sapphire]

Reducing damage just turns openers like SDPC into Cheese chucking openers.

[sage plume]

If the spike were reduced, then it wouldn't send cheese unless the spike sent less than 4 lines

and also if it were just a cheese chucking opener, then there would be so little damage that it would be useless

[grand topaz]

Regardless, if you bind the damage nerf to time, people would just stall extended-sdpc to f.ex 30 seconds, while if you bind it to piece count, people would complain that the opener doesn't kill and the matches are artificially too long.

[mystic yoke]

hm? time, pieces placed, lines cleared all dont hit extended sdpcspin enough

if it's very high lines cleared so that sdpcspin fails, then that's becoming a sprinting meta

[grand topaz]

Yup

And extended-sdpc goes all the way down to even S-, with no real follow-up

[neat pagoda]

If you stall it that long wouldn't you probably have to cancel some of what the opponent sends in the meantime and reduce the attack output?

[mystic yoke]

lowering dmg lets extended sdpcspin complete their cspin whenever they want

the killspike happens at cspin, not its TSSes

[grand topaz]

Cancel with what exactly, extended-sdpc? The defense I presume would also be nerfed unless we're doing that "garbage bonus: defensive" from custom rooms, BUT that still wouldn't help with lower ranks being demolished by the opener as they have nothing to defend with really if they're just 2-widing or something

[mystic yoke]

if anything, higher dmg kills extended sdpcspin faster

[onyx reef]

and buffs every other opener

[mystic yoke]

that opener doesnt follow the usual trends, so things hitting openers need to hit all of them

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392 that's why I'd hit TL with this to neuter all opener coverage

[grand topaz]

Imagine absolute garbage cap being capped to 10 at 25 seconds so openers cannot kill, but then people would complain the game's make them waste 25 seconds by the time the get to "play the game"

[mystic yoke]

I dont think dmg adjustments cover this problem

[grand topaz]

Stalling meta until 25 and then counterspike etc. Anyway it's either the random garbage or the bag revision

As long as the game rewards 28 piece sequences that can be built each time, people will build it

[mystic yoke]

pretty much

[onyx reef]

people will make new sequences no matter what bag system you use as long as there is a decent amount of predictability imo

[quick sapphire]

There is a lot more sequences in 7+X than standard 7 bag. To the point where I doubt they're consistent enough to learn.

[grand topaz]

i really do wonder if there's any other solid way to fix opener-maining without having to disrupt either the bags or the pieces

[mystic yoke]

disrupt the initial boardstate

[charred walrus]

Ideally only kill openers would be nerfed, but unfortunately its hard to automatically detect whats a kill opener and whats not

[mystic yoke]

I think nerfing LST off opener is also quite healthy for the game

[charred walrus]

Maybe you could try full tec mode and make garbage cleanliness 100% for the first couple of bags but but i think that would just cause problems too

[mystic yoke]

it's not particularly weak or strong, but it's memorized for like 4-5 bags

[mystic yoke]

the problem is that Tetrio has multiplier and uncapped speed, TEC does not

[lucid basin]

it depends how you enter it

[spiral vessel]

the idea of having a couple minos at the start of the game has kinda grown on me

[lucid basin]

plus even in well labbed sequences like flat top tki, there's usually still some variance that you have to respond to from queue being random

[mystic yoke]

that's almost the same as sdpc minimals lol

[lucid basin]

without the looping power of sdpc though

[spiral vessel]

sometimes you cant do opener, and sometimes you can (and it looks cooler) pcs would be really hard to do, but it wouldnt affect the game as much as 7+x does
i would really like to see this become an option in custom games and try it out

[mystic yoke]

that's why it's neither weak or strong, but the memorization should be caught in the same targetting imo

[charred walrus]

Yeah but i want 1app average

[lucid basin]

if lst were a more significant threat then I might agree but given that a player with decent defence can survive against and strongly punish it I don't see why it has to be made weaker

[mystic yoke]

cos I dislike cherrypicking LST apart from singleyou and others
it's very creator bias rather than a balance patch

[lucid basin]

how so?

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392 so i favor this

[mystic yoke]

in the first place, I dont know what mechanics can target singleyou without hitting TKI

what is this theory

[charred walrus]

First bag is 7bag second bag is weird

[mystic yoke]

delayed 7+x? sounds gross

[charred walrus]

U can still singleu but like no stick or sdpc, but idk its kinda a weird sol

Yeah it does sound gross lol

[lucid basin]

well, 7+x appended would work to an extent, tki followups would be fucked a little but sdpc followups would be turbo-fucked

alternatively nerf pcs, tki into lst doesn't pc so it doesn't care

[charred walrus]

sdpcspin:

[lucid basin]

sure, that's a good point

[mystic yoke]

extended sdpcspin doesnt rely on PC

[charred walrus]

frankly opener lst is not that hard to memorize and if u can lst well then going into it midgame should not be that hard with 7bag

Lst is a stacking method not an opener, its not gonna get murdered

[hybrid depot]

lst is not a huge problem, not if we are trying to destroy openers at least

[mystic yoke]

it will finally stop SS 3 TSD into skim

[grand topaz]

I think nerfing LST off opener is also quite healthy for the game
[..]it's memorized for like 4-5 bags
i'm happy to see someone say this

[winged tartan]

well i mean that's just #1233972737576276040

[mystic yoke]

I believe henlo was referring to first bag 7, then 7+3 afterwards nonappend

or well it's basically the same effect

[charred walrus]

pretty much the same in practice

[hybrid depot]

i think that just makes the initial sprint 42 pieces instead of 35

[slender torrent]

I dont get about 7+x appended

if theyre just worse, why does the concept exist

[grand topaz]

i think 7+X appended wants a complete 7-bag to make tki?

[mystic yoke]

that's some people pet theory but that does nothing for me

[slender torrent]

thats like, "destroy all opener and let mine stay"

[charred walrus]

yeah but like its kinda a mid solution

[grand topaz]

well yes, "destroy all opener" is 7+X

[charred walrus]

its like destroy all opener but tki

[slender torrent]

I would prefer destroy all opener than giving advantage to some and letting most in disadvantage

idk spell but you got it

[mystic yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1234909644003213392

[slender torrent]

tbh I still dont see why 7+x is a thing

[mystic yoke]

it had potential
felt worse in testing, time to test other solves

[slender torrent]

its like having a whole thread to remove awp from cs

but i like 7+x for customs

[daring hill]

i still think sdpc was the biggest shareholder of complaints. or something

[mystic yoke]

singleyou

[slender torrent]

putting it on tl was kinda 💀 on sunday

[mystic yoke]

any route on singleyou, people complain

[fallow copper]

Makes sense

[winged tartan]

people keep trying to compare this to overwatch or league of legends characters but that's just not how it works lol

of course the CSGO players would think it's a little dumb if the AWP was literally free, you just had to find it hidden in a bush somewhere (as described in various wiki)

[slender torrent]

I comparated most with pokemon tho

[winged tartan]

it's still not how it works

[grand topaz]

7+X exists so people stop doing SDPC or SDPC-spin every 9/10th game i'm guessing

[slender torrent]

why stop it

[grand topaz]

in lower ranks a single execution of extended-sdpc-spin is generally an instant win

[spiral vessel]

honestly extended is the only opener i actually dislike/feel is really unfairly hard to beat

[grand topaz]

because it sucks for new players, kind of a chore to counter in general, and honestly it gets stale to look at once you've seen that this is "the meta" that everyone is doing at every rank at all the times for an early O

[spiral vessel]

everyone at every rank is not doing that, its some people

[grand topaz]

SDPC-spin is at every rank from C+ to X

[slender torrent]

and?

[grand topaz]

it makes the game bad

[spiral vessel]

🤓

[daring hill]

games good for me idk

[tired flame]

funny you mentioned the awp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOebGm_jMLY

I would argue the opener problem is similar to the sniper problem in fps

[grand topaz]

people start leaving because they are bored of being opener main'd etc

[winged tartan]

oh yeaah i remember that video

[mystic yoke]

niya is a troll in this regard, dont mind it

[spiral vessel]

lol

[fallow copper]

Kek

[spiral vessel]

nice pfp

[slender torrent]

?

[fallow copper]

Thx

Anyways it’s just about the highs and lows. Like it can feel pretty good to kill someone with an opener but being on the other side isn’t very fun.

[grand topaz]

tbf Niya is kind of a troll even in the game per say, 4 pps mech?? lol

[grand topaz]

Playstyle:
➤Opener: 1.1768
➤Plonk: -0.1059
➤Stride: 0.9688
➤Inf DS: -0.2512

[fallow copper]

Homie about to get hard nerfed

[slender torrent]

idk whats so hard to understand that it hits harder with midgame

[grand topaz]

i'm not sure i get the context of what you mean

[slender torrent]

ok suppose you match against someone

your only option is to midgame

you just can't beat his midgame because of level difference

now what? pray? you will just have 7 terryfying games praying for luck garbage or their missdrops

with opener you atleast have the chance to win the game

[mystic yoke]

no? they climb and you lose temporarily

[daring hill]

🤔

[grand topaz]

you just can't beat his midgame because of level difference

with opener you atleast have the chance to win the game
that's a nice argument for 7+X

[mystic yoke]

if they skillgap you, then they have a higher winrate than you

[slender torrent]

what? make the game more monotone?

[mystic yoke]

winrate is 100 or zero

[grand topaz]

...you mech until you die (aka you place every piece in the same column in every bag), so that's such a strange complaint from you lol

[daring hill]

im not shilling 7+x lol but better midgamer will just win

[mystic yoke]

avg Niya day

[fallow copper]

Pray they get some sucky pattern and think longer

[mystic yoke]

in the first place, "their midgame is better than yours" is a bold claim, there's alot of different skills in play

[mortal scroll]

you're the worse player and it's time to lose

[slender torrent]

if its to have only midgame game, change ft to 2 lol

[mystic yoke]

if they're literally better at upstack, downstack, and macro, then they will likely win

[daring hill]

[grand topaz]

i think that game is called te:c zone battle

[mystic yoke]

but most players do not have an even spread of these skills, but you're wanting to claim "yeah they'll win"

[mortal scroll]

amazing

[fallow copper]

Ft 15 and see who’s hand gives up first

[slender torrent]

nah I know when my opponent is just better at midgamming than me

[fallow copper]

Maybe then you can just beat them in stamina which would be funny

[grand topaz]

unironically my hope against opener-main tends to be that maybe their fingers get tired so i can win with midgame after

[mortal scroll]

slight amt of trolling

[mystic yoke]

avg trolling

[daring hill]

fr

[fallow copper]

The plottwist is it isn’t long enough

[mortal scroll]

hope they get arthritis mid game 😭

[slender torrent]

idk, I have no idea why do you guys says opener makes less begineers friendly while are those beginners that use them to win

[grand topaz]

arthritis-cannon opener

[fallow copper]

Someone make the most complicated arthritis opener

It would be so funny

[fallow copper]

Because the effort you put into learning it has higher value than learning mid game at that level. So you just win games without interacting with your opponent.

[wanton mulch]

off topic but actually I think openers are great way for a beginner to give/lose interest in tetrio

[mystic yoke]

you mean advertisement?

[wanton mulch]

yeah

[daring hill]

lol my friends (that have now stopped playing the game) were interested in the openers instead of the actual stacking

[mystic yoke]

we have tetriocup for that, aint no way people are starting with guides

[fallow copper]

Openers can look cool yeah

[grand topaz]

i know too many people who get tilted away from tetrio after trying to main stickspin

[fallow copper]

I just call them my little nerd setups before they get confused

[wanton mulch]

Well maybe, but tetriocups are usually done by higher ranks with solid midgame skills
newbs don't have that and the only way for them to achieve high number is via opener

[mystic yoke]

opener interest is real, but that is "the youtube content that was popular" for tetrio

[mystic yoke]

rather, if we espouse Kez, then we can have them achieve "these better numbers"

[daring hill]

idk if this will mean anything haha, cause they were trying to learn lst after seeing a kezdabez video
They didnt learn 9-0 yet

[winged tartan]

i mean if they ask what someone else was using in #lobby, then they're gonna be starting out with guides

[mystic yoke]

Openers are this shortterm dopamine that you're talking about, and keep talking about pulling in players for it

if they see opener then they're gonna copy the opener? yeah, that's different from what sauce was saying

what if they see Flare and they say "how tf do I copy flare"

[daring hill]

interesting

[mystic yoke]

openers did draw in interest, but it isnt the healthiest or only way to do so

[wanton mulch]

it would be good to see newer players asking for how to get better at stacking instead of asking 'what's the best opener'

[fallow copper]

What’s the best opener?

[wanton mulch]

playing the game

[fallow copper]

Playing the game with sdpc you say?

[slender torrent]

hardly desagree

[fallow copper]

Wait hardly or hard

[slender torrent]

idk I mean very disagree

which one should be used

[empty pike]

Hard.

[slender torrent]

oh I used it wrong all my life

[mystic yoke]

funny how english works, hardly is adv of hard but means opposite

[winged tartan]

working hard or hardly working

[slender torrent]

btw, my point is, to counter most of basic opener mains, just have to learn sending a line