7+X-Bag in TL

[chilly robin]

new gamemode

[bold citrus]

week*

[long palm]

it can work

[winged tartan]

don't ask me i'm basically just the PR guy trying to manage misconceptions

[boreal drift]

I've been made aware

[chilly robin]

don't you still have a personal opinion?

(that you can share, that is not coming from a staff position)

[daring moss]

Nonpartisan ahh job

[opal hamlet]

Mathematically speaking, the vast majority of the player-base (95%) are not U rank or above

[winged tartan]

i do think 4th bag is a little out there to impact openers so i'd be alright with just axing the 4th bag being 7+1

[honest oriole]

I think this is just Walmart character system also everyone would just use t pieces

[daring moss]

Why ?

[winged tartan]

bonus points if this fucks with the PC loopers even more

[daring moss]

They will all be equally balanced

[winged tartan]

tee do you know about https://characters.osk.sh/#characters

[long palm]

valid and true

[chilly robin]

i have gotten an invite from a friend

just make every piece an O

lets gooooo

[onyx reef]

so they quit because they thought high elo game was just the opener and not because the game was miserable because of openers?

[tight harbor]

wtf no love to pc loopers

[long palm]

invite me

[daring moss]

NO WAY 😭😭💀💀

[honest oriole]

7 bag is their love

[charred walrus]

how about the starting board has 1 block filled in

[terse jacinth]

sdpc and td openers are still kinda within the 4 bags that's unchanged though

[chilly robin]

we'll invite you if we actually do this

[long palm]

[onyx reef]

7+X pc theory 💀

[honest oriole]

Can I get an invite if you actually do that

[charred walrus]

this is much more effective for stopping pc

[opal hamlet]

And have the S piece place blocks in your stack (over your active piece too if it's low enough) and make it give a free quad (and possibly an all clear too), perfectly balanced /j

[ruby comet]

i mean yeah they really hated getting dt cannoned or sdpc in B-A rank and not knowing what even happened lol

then when i explain

[fossil charm]

GOOD idea

[severe spindle]

Dt canon is still very possible

[hollow mist]

if u cant beat them join em

[severe spindle]

It doesn’t particularly change

[opal hamlet]

turn it into PPT2 Skill Battle

[hollow mist]

but yea thats not rlly good for the game

[terse jacinth]

time to learn 10 different sets of openers

[ruby comet]

we're talking about why my new tetris friends quit

[fossil charm]

THE skill battle wombo combo

[long palm]

have it drop a mino randomly from the top of the screen

[charred walrus]

wont stop like stick

[winged tartan]

(updated with timestamp)

[tight harbor]

dt just sends 12 lines

[charred walrus]

but good luck pcing

[limpid zealot]

day 1 skill battle was so hilarious

[opal hamlet]

me when I use skills to have an infinite combo

[onyx reef]

well the point was that with everyone having an opener openers are no longer oppressive and the game resolved back to midgame most of the time

[limpid zealot]

i love fusing pieces into my stack to get all clear spam you cant even tank/cancel because it "damages" you

[severe spindle]

This change makes cheesers infinitely harder to deal with

[fossil charm]

day 1 skill battle funny
day 2 skill battle 0 players

[limpid zealot]

hard agree

[fossil charm]

sad

[onyx reef]

ok so true i just lost 1-7 to qepsi lol

[opal hamlet]

day 3, SOMEHOW negative players

[severe spindle]

Rip

[boreal drift]

This thread has now broken 2k messages

[limpid zealot]

but also that's kinda just PPT2...

[fossil charm]

myea true

[tight harbor]

pretty much how it would go

[fossil charm]

tho it is a bit more active since a few months

[limpid zealot]

went on sale a bit ago i think

[opal hamlet]

me when I can press a button in puyo puyo to instantly get rid of all my garbage

[daring moss]

@split flame what have you done to us 😭

[winged tartan]

for the record it was at ~700 messages this morning

[tight harbor]

at least from what I tried in tetris games like that

[onyx reef]

cant introduce b2b and im not better than them at cheesing 😔

[brisk badger]

It's not that bad ngl

[tired flame]

it's a whatever, dt cannon still possible? not gonan be as consistent as it currently is

I agree it's a problem

[tight harbor]

interesting in first day and then get boring really quick

[tired flame]

new players seeing openers and nope out

[onyx reef]

guess its time to learn 5 pps 6-3 for the same function hhhhh

[charred walrus]

170 block 100L cheese when

[onyx reef]

neverrrrrrrrrrrr

i refuse

ill just artifically introduce clean and make them play my game of seesaw

[tight harbor]

tbf new players die to literally everything (my experience as new player)

[fossil charm]

i lied i mean over a year

[hollow mist]

promo having a field day rn

[tight harbor]

and it's part of the fun

[fossil charm]

it started getting 75% sales then

[atomic gorge]

hot take cheesers are overhated and are playing the game just as properly as eveyone else

[opal hamlet]

have fun grinding TETR.IO adventure mode to level up your stats to stand a chance

[severe spindle]

I agree

[chilly robin]

honestly just do rank season resets if this change is perma

[charred walrus]

cheesing my goat

[tired flame]

#1233972737576276040 would be nice than how messed up 10 bag is,

[atomic gorge]

especially given how weak combo is in this game

[onyx reef]

i mean cheesing isnt bad its just not fun for some people to play against

[severe spindle]

I still hate them tho

[daring moss]

Whats really important though is the fact my “i” is capitalized to “I” in tetrio i do not want to be grammatically correct in this game 🤦And also adding apostrophes to contractions 😭

[chilly robin]

@sharp condor I did math wrong it's actually just under 16 million permutations for bag 1

[atomic gorge]

if you cant cancel thats just skill issue imo

[chilly robin]

bag one: (7 C 3) 10! / (2! 2! 2!) = 15876000
bag two: (4 C 2) 9! / (2! 2!) = 544320
bag three: (2 C 1) 8!/2! = 40320
bag four: 8!/2! = 20160

[sharp condor]

lol

[boreal drift]

Will be back when this thread hits 3k

[sharp condor]

yea thats why im saying its so hard to opener now

[onyx reef]

same logic for a ranks with openers then

[sharp condor]

isn't that the whole

yea

[onyx reef]

they cant cancel

skill issue

[atomic gorge]

opener is way worse

[onyx reef]

?

[atomic gorge]

because it takes no skill to opener

[long palm]

[atomic gorge]

and a good amount of skill to cheese

[tight harbor]

it's just skill issue yeah

[tired flame]

openers denies the game instantly

[onyx reef]

why does it take no skill to opener

[atomic gorge]

and by skill i mean time investment in this case

[tired flame]

if you dont know how to survive

[charred walrus]

cheese is harder than clean to play skillfully

[tight harbor]

openers are a lot easier to counter tho

[opal hamlet]

Technically that's not an "uppercase" large capital I, that's a "lowercase" small capital "i"

[tight harbor]

but yeah

[onyx reef]

so my 3 years of practicing an opener to push it to 17 kps are no skill

[tired flame]

? b2b cancel is easy to counter cheese

dsing

[tight harbor]

more skill than countering opener

[onyx reef]

that seems like a time investment to me

[tidal magnet]

has anybody figured out how many different x+y bags there are given x and y

[long palm]

yeah

[boreal drift]

Where did the semantics come from

[chilly robin]

it's not "no skill to use" so much as "the skill barrier to dominate games in lower ranks is too low"

[ruby comet]

its just muscle memory, and not that much creativity, most people who would be interested in playing tetris are put off by it

[charred walrus]

the only skill is efficiency, there should be a 1pps speedcap

[onyx reef]

i could say the same for idk

lst

pattern stacking

[tired flame]

Poor downstacking is a common, common issue among lower ranks

[barren lava]

good morning

[onyx reef]

no one complains

[tired flame]

so openers are a bigger issue

until higher

[tidal magnet]

where

is there a proof too

[onyx reef]

go play te:c then

[atomic gorge]

at high level sure

[ruby comet]

yeah but thats a totally different argument since its not the start of the game with no garbage on the screen 🙂

[charred walrus]

tec is a strider game

[tight harbor]

it forces ppl to learn ds and I like it

[atomic gorge]

at lower level that is not true at all

[chilly robin]

so this is how you plan to get top 20 huh

[charred walrus]

its all upstack so speed matters even more

[charred walrus]

SHH

[onyx reef]

well if you are dominating your lower ranked games with opener ull gain rank and match people who can deal with them lol

[atomic gorge]

learning how to build stickspin is substantially easier than learning to ds properly

[tired flame]

nah it forces others to learn about openers

and then soem quit

ove rit

[tight harbor]

some ppl will just quit

[boreal drift]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1067009824598016010

[chilly robin]

so what's the difference between that, and midgame players forcing others to learn midgame and quitting over it

[tight harbor]

which is honestly normal

[onyx reef]

therefore 0 issue and if you lose to opener just get better at the game and youll beat it

[honest oriole]

As an individual who has learned stick I can confirm

[tired flame]

duration of round, actually playing the game i guess

[tight harbor]

I am pretty sure there are ppl going to quit the game if this becomes and thing

[long palm]

sdpc is a really easy crutch

[tidal magnet]

ok

[tight harbor]

and less ppl coming from other guideline games

[opal hamlet]

Given you're using 7+1 bag, that's 7!+7 or 5047 combinations (in combinations, order doesn't matter)

[sharp condor]

not at all

[boreal drift]

There are already people who have

[tidal magnet]

ik how to claculate 7+1 and stuff

but like 7+x

and x+y

[limpid zealot]

See, but the question to that is whether more people won't be deterred in the future by the lack of opener prevalence if this is permanent or not.

[tidal magnet]

also

[boreal drift]

And announced it like it's an airport

[atomic gorge]

i would agree but it’s definitely still an overcentralizing mechanic

[tidal magnet]

u messed up ur math

[sharp condor]

break it apart into 7 + 3, 7 + 2, 7 + 1, 7 + 1

[tidal magnet]

orrather

[charred walrus]

Emphasizing finger speed in a game can be problematic because it shifts the focus away from strategic thinking, problem-solving, and creativity, which are often more important aspects of gameplay. Additionally, it can exclude players who may not have the same level of dexterity or physical ability, leading to frustration and discouragement. A game that relies heavily on finger speed may also become repetitive and lose its appeal over time, as the challenge primarily comes from how fast players can react rather than engaging with deeper gameplay mechanics.

[tidal magnet]

it doesnt work bc

of the case where

[chilly robin]

why is round duration an issue? you're still learning skills such as ds that you need to survive, in much the same way you need ds/freestyle skills to survive midgame — as anber said, if you lose to opener, just get better at the game until you beat it. you're developing a different set of skills, but skills nonetheless

also, you're making the biased assumption that using openers isn't "actually playing the game" which isn't a sound argument

[tidal magnet]

Z can be inserted into position 0 and 1 of ZLOSIJT

[sharp condor]

huhlol

[tidal magnet]

and then they're identical

[atomic gorge]

everyone in ssb brawl having their skill judged by how well they could fight meta knight was terrible even if it was arguably “fair”

[chilly robin]

this is why I paid for v4

[ruby comet]

10000000% facts

[tidal magnet]

for x+1 bag it's x! * x * (x-1)

[sharp condor]

no you're just doing it wrong

[chilly robin]

you realize this is chatgpt written right

[opal hamlet]

How so? With a standard 7-Bag, that's 7x6x5x4x3x2x1, and the extra piece adds 7 combinations to that

[onyx reef]

but openers are not meta knight lol

[opal hamlet]

wait I'm stupid

[charred walrus]

could be like

[ruby comet]

either way its still facts

[charred walrus]

idk

[onyx reef]

they are not all emcompassing meta enders

[tired flame]

I mean it from the new player getting 23 spiked from a TDPC going ??? 5 sec rounds for 3-5 rounds is just not fun?

[charred walrus]

bard

[tidal magnet]

can't the extra piece be inserted into it

[atomic gorge]

at low rank i would argue they are

[chilly robin]

nah it's (7 choose 3) to select the 3 pieces, then (10!) to arrange the ten pieces, then divide by (2!)^3 to account for the 3 pairs

[onyx reef]

have you played at low rank

[opal hamlet]

It's 7+7 combinations

[charred walrus]

and its not exactly wrong

[onyx reef]

lately

[atomic gorge]

i ran uc 😭😭😭

[tired flame]

try learning how to ds in 5-10 second rounds apeice

[opal hamlet]

With 7+1-bag, that's 8 combinations

[onyx reef]

uc is different from just playing the game

[tidal magnet]

it's x+1 bag not 1+x bag nor 7+x bag

[chilly robin]

maybe i'm trolling but this reads exactly like chatgpt's tone

[chilly robin]

oops sorry you're talking about x+1 not 7+x

mb

[charred walrus]

it is gpt3.5

[atomic gorge]

ive met a bunch of low rank players in uni also

[onyx reef]

its a tournament ofc the people with the best opener and midgame will win

[atomic gorge]

im not just making a blind assertion

[tight harbor]

again different strokes for different folks

are you even playing the game if you don't learn to play with mechanics tbh

[opal hamlet]

I forgot that with a standard 7-bag, there's always one combination: all 7 pieces

[tidal magnet]

can u figure out smth for x+y bag

[chilly robin]

7+1 bag is 7 choose 1 times 8! divided by 2!

[chilly robin]

that fully depends on how it gets implemented in game

[sharp condor]

huh

no way its tha tbig

[drifting wave]

hi SS/low U player here this update sucks and feels like my opponents will never send me clean anymore

[tidal magnet]

nono like theoretically

[drifting wave]

smilew

[tidal magnet]

same way as 7 bag but with any amount of pieces

[tight harbor]

real

[chilly robin]

aren't you pulling an extra piece from somewhere

[onyx reef]

idk i just dont think changing an entire bag system to eliminate multi-bag openers wil make the game anymore enjoyable

[opal hamlet]

With the extra piece, that adds 7 combinations (one per piece type)

[charred walrus]

A simple and effective strategy in a game can be considered bad if it leads to repetitive and uninteresting gameplay. Games thrive on variety, challenge, and creativity, and if a single strategy dominates the gameplay, it can diminish the overall enjoyment and satisfaction for players. Moreover, it can discourage exploration and experimentation with other aspects of the game, limiting the potential for players to discover new tactics and approaches. In competitive settings, a dominant strategy can also create imbalance and frustration among players, detracting from the fairness and integrity of the gaming experience. Thus, while simplicity and effectiveness have their merits, they should be balanced with diversity and depth to ensure a richer and more engaging gameplay experience.

[opal hamlet]

meaning 8 combinations

[sharp condor]

7 choose 1 times 8! ???

[atomic gorge]

this is fair

[spare sun]

https://tetr.io/#R:j8Lg3rEM_

[drifting wave]

i literally logged on and played a match and wondered how the fuck i was playing so bad

[onyx reef]

people will always find a way to be annoying

[brisk badger]

I disagree I enjhoy the game again

[severe spindle]

Lmao

[drifting wave]

then i realized i got 2 z's and shit in a row

[spare sun]

I take back EVERYTHING I said 7+x is awesome

[drifting wave]

like 😂

[spare sun]

free tr

[onyx reef]

wait until you play madkiwi and then its the same thing

[tidal magnet]

i thought it was 7! * 7 * 6

[onyx reef]

or westl learns 6 pps 4w

[sharp condor]

lol

[onyx reef]

itll be the same thing and the issue is still there

[sharp condor]

yes something like this

[tight harbor]

pretty much

[atomic gorge]

i just think that at lower ranks it’s become a barrier to enjoyment because the barrier to entry is fighting openers

[onyx reef]

the opener is unfun for those that dont learn openers

[tidal magnet]

the x! * x * (x-1) worked for x=1, 2, 3

[drifting wave]

mfs pushin updates to change meta like overwatch

[sharp condor]

not sure if this is correct

[drifting wave]

this shit is crazy

[onyx reef]

tbh

[daring moss]

A+ with those stats is bro smurfing😭

[onyx reef]

i prefer a garbage reduction in the start

[chilly robin]

we have eight pieces to order xOSZLIJT
there are 8! permutations

there are 7 choose 1 ways to pick x

x will duplicate with one of the other 7 pieces. e.g. x is O, then OOSZLIJT is the same as OOSZLIJT; we divide by 2! to account for this

[sharp condor]

i believe it is 7! * 7 * 7

[onyx reef]

you cant nuke with it in lower ranks

[atomic gorge]

i think this is fallacious reasoning

just because people will find more ways to be annoying doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fix current issues

[spare sun]

its just 6-3 and i have 39 seconds sprint lol

[tired flame]

Why is there math here 😔

[onyx reef]

yes

you should

but there are better ways to fix it

[daring moss]

gimme whatever u are eating

[onyx reef]

and also without pissing off a massive subgroup of people

[long palm]

its 7! * 7 * 8 iirc

[tidal magnet]

ok let's consider the case x = 3

what would it be

[charred walrus]

yes, it should just be a competition of finger speed

[atomic gorge]

i agree with this yea

[charred walrus]

whoever can hit more keys in 10 seconds wins

[opal hamlet]

Thank you, I have no idea how to calculate permutations with an extra piece

[chilly robin]

what are you trying to consider

[sharp condor]

no because you have to account for not distinct duplidate piece

[tidal magnet]

if there were 3 pieces

[spare sun]

running on skittles

[chilly robin]

i'm talking about permutations for 7+1

[tidal magnet]

yeah ik

[tired flame]

I still think a compromise like 7+x appended instead of 10 9 8 8 bag would be better

[rare sequoia]

im surprised theres no way to change the bag system in zen, that would make it a bit easier to test out and form an opinion without needing to wager tr or wait for games in custom rooms

[chilly robin]

so 3+1?

[tidal magnet]

yeah

how would ur formula adapt

[sharp condor]

you can do it in solo custom rooms

[onyx reef]

personally, i dont like 7+x because it makes the opener extremely boring

[ruby comet]

no creativity staring at my screen memorizing every single opener combination not a thought going on in my brain

[onyx reef]

theres no

[severe spindle]

Agreed

[rare sequoia]

arent you unable to play without 2 people?

[charred walrus]

Wait ok i like dont consider myself an opener main but im still getting trolled by 7+x

[limpid zealot]

This is an interesting take, what do you mean by boring here?

[onyx reef]

theres no danger

at all

[chilly robin]

then (3 choose 1) 4! / 2! i think? unsure

[onyx reef]

like

[rare sequoia]

OH

[onyx reef]

i cannot die

[sharp condor]

no you can only play by yourself in solo custom room

[rare sequoia]

custom rooms

[sharp condor]

lol yea

[tight harbor]

good thing it's optional

[severe spindle]

And its just upstacj

[tidal magnet]

3 choose 1 = 3

[rare sequoia]

ty

[onyx reef]

all there is to do is make b2b

[sharp condor]

yea i agree

[tired flame]

custom solo mode you can have 7+x

[tidal magnet]

3 * 4! / 2! =

[sharp condor]

6-3 simluator

its so stale

[tidal magnet]

3 * 24 / 2

[sharp condor]

tec gaming but without mega messiness

[tidal magnet]

3 * 12

[onyx reef]

id rather have a reduction of garbage at the start

[tidal magnet]

36

that works

[atomic gorge]

i would argue this is a necessary evil

[onyx reef]

than this

[chilly robin]

actually hold on someone remidn me how 7+1 works

[tidal magnet]

hmmm that's weird

my formula also seemed to work

[onyx reef]

which is the same thing ig

but then

[sharp condor]

do you think openers are problematic in higher ranks

[onyx reef]

i get to deal with cheese

[chilly robin]

multiple formulas can get the same number lol

[sharp condor]

higher ranks as in X and higher

[rare sequoia]

i tried arguing for nerfs for a few days in this thread

[tidal magnet]

3! * 3 * (3 - 1) = 6 * 3 * 2 = 36

omg

what is going on

[honest oriole]

8 piece bag, 1 piece is random

[atomic gorge]

generally no

[hardy beacon]

i think chess is a better game when the pieces have the start position randomized its more fair for the creative minded gamer

[limpid zealot]

But is that necessarily a bad thing? Should that be the possibility at the very beginning of a match?

[chilly robin]

the opener is way more interesting

[tidal magnet]

yeah but for some reason it was different for x = 7

[onyx reef]

personally

[sharp condor]

normal bag but with another randomised piece inserted randomly into the bag

[charred walrus]

Wait ok can we just have a normal first bag and then 7+X idk the t piece always manages to troll

[onyx reef]

note the use

of personally

[rare sequoia]

7+1 is way easier to make openers for

[onyx reef]

im not asserting its boring for everyone lol

[chilly robin]

personally i disagreed with your opionon

[chilly robin]

ok cool

[sharp condor]

way easier is like

[tired flame]

#1233972737576276040 is why i made this getting a non7bag at the start is jsut jarring

[tidal magnet]

wait where's ur generalized formula

[chilly robin]

because your formula is wrong

[sharp condor]

theres 49x as many bags as before

[tidal magnet]

wait what's ur formula

[sharp condor]

way easier but still not easy i think

[onyx reef]

well anyway

[sharp condor]

i'll believe that when someone comes up with a consistent opener

[long palm]

its 56x

[rare sequoia]

but there are setups that can be built with high chances even without hold

[sharp condor]

what types of opener are they

[rare sequoia]

a lot of tsm openers

[onyx reef]

my opinon is really biased anyway because of the whole .1% of playerbase thing

[sharp condor]

tsm openers aren't known for being super good

[rare sequoia]

or waste t first bags

[onyx reef]

for most people its the same if not more fun

[sharp condor]

like people don't really use them anyway

[tidal magnet]

in terms of x what is it

[onyx reef]

i think

[sharp condor]

it's 7! * 7 * 7

[rare sequoia]

yes but theyd be the replacement

[sharp condor]

ah i see

[rare sequoia]

people use mko dont they

[long palm]

where you get both 7's from

[sharp condor]

7 types of pieces and 7 positions to be inserted into

[charred walrus]

did someone say mko

[atomic gorge]

i usually greedy upstack 2 floats + tetris on opener on this ruleset

[severe spindle]

The game for me feel more boring

[tight harbor]

I share the same opinion since C rank

[limpid zealot]

8 positions, this is an off-by-one error.

[sharp condor]

no look

consider SZIOTLJ

[onyx reef]

greedy upstack is what ive found works best against everyone other than qepsi lol

[charred walrus]

two O positions are the same

[sharp condor]

lets arbitrarilty choose s and insert

[severe spindle]

Tli

[severe spindle]

Tki

[sharp condor]

sSZIOTLJ and SsZIOTLJ are identical

[charred walrus]

yeah

[sharp condor]

so theres only 7 positions

[limpid zealot]

Ah, that makes sense.

My bad.

[tidal magnet]

yeah mine might be wrong

[charred walrus]

but then like

[sharp condor]

no way the second bag works though

[charred walrus]

tilsjoz s at end is the same as

tiljozs s after l

[sharp condor]

i didn't think about 7+1 that much, mainly about 7+x but it's hard for me to envision viable 7+1 openers

that aren't mainly freestyle

[spare sun]

actively slamming with 6-3 against players that cant do openers anymore

[charred walrus]

Dpc opener

[rare sequoia]

youd just need to make the 2nd bag field clean enough to accommodate duplicates

[sharp condor]

still kind of rng then right

[plush palm]

[tidal magnet]

yours seems to work

[sharp condor]

if you get exrtra T as your 1 piece i can't imagine the parity being nice

[rare sequoia]

openers have a lot of congruent shapes that save space and increase build chances past 1st bag

[sharp condor]

either you're forced to hold T and play holdless for 2nd bag

or you're forced to have really fucked parity

[tidal magnet]

i used x * (x+1)! / 2 for x+1 bag

[onyx reef]

andddd theres where the opener 6-3 issue comes in 💀

[tidal magnet]

numbers i got

[charred walrus]

true

[onyx reef]

who coulda guessed 6-3 is fairly easy to build and sends a decent amount compared to everything else

[sharp condor]

lol

[plush palm]

lol, true

[sharp condor]

yea i would hate for the game to be 6-3 simulator

[charred walrus]

playing against ppl with 50% faster fingers is bad regardless of whether its sdpc or 6-3 spam

[chilly robin]

For an (m + n) bag where:

• m > n is the number of distinguishable pieces are in a "normal" bag
• n is the number of pieces inserted into the normal bag to create an (m+n) bag
• n is uniformly chosen from the set of m pieces

then the number of permutations for the first (m+n) bag is:
(m choose n) (m+n)! / (2!)^n

note that if you distribute pieces among more than 1 bag, then the formula changes because we have prior information. for example, with how (7+3) is implemented, a TSZ chosen for bag 1 cannot be added to bag 2

[severe spindle]

Yea

[onyx reef]

and is theoretically the fastest way to build i wonder how this could go wrong with children with mechanical fingers

[severe spindle]

It would become who can stride faster

[limpid zealot]

6-3, Freestyle PC & C4W are the main paragons after these changes. Freestyle PC is generally seen to be skillful, so that's fine. As for the other two, I think it varies across the community.

[tidal magnet]

wait why first isnt it like

arent the bags also appended

[atomic gorge]

if it’s pure tetrises i think it shouldn’t be that hard to beat? not sure why 6-3 should be overpowered

[chilly robin]

yeah I formally studied combinatorics but I also didn't go to lecture much so my formulas are usually on the right track but somewhat fucked

[sharp condor]

freestyle pc is really fucked

[chilly robin]

I just checked the one I sent you with a friend

[tidal magnet]

ah i see

[foggy ferry]

even as a tec player at heart this seems questionable lol

[tidal magnet]

i need to study combinatorics

[sharp condor]

i'm pretty good at freestylling pc and i had a lto of trouble doing them at a high speed

[rare sequoia]

or 9-0/4w

[onyx reef]

adapted for vs no duh

[limpid zealot]

Sure, but it's also hard, and you can't really use learned setups as much. Seems like a worthwhile tradeoff and skill input.

[sharp condor]

look at lwoer ranks 😭

[onyx reef]

also it is like

[sharp condor]

i 9-0 in half my games

[onyx reef]

a ranks

[atomic gorge]

that is not that easy to do man

[onyx reef]

and s ranks

[sharp condor]

i hit U rank with liek 1.8pps 9-0 no tspins

[atomic gorge]

6-3 upstack with tspins is really hard

[chilly robin]

yes and in 7+x, you have 3 pieces distributed to the original bag 1, 2 distributed to original bag 2, 1 to bag 3, 1 to bag 4

[onyx reef]

ok 6-3 upstack with no tspins

[tight harbor]

what about 2-7

[severe spindle]

Thats kinda just lst,,

[atomic gorge]

if theyre just striding thats a speed issue which has always been the case

[charred walrus]

with no tspins or long combos any survival is easy

[tired flame]

yeah i tried that for the first time earlier today cant even 300 ppb in ultra 😔

[rare sequoia]

yeah when i was SS people got by just fine with 9-0 only, obv changed a bit now but its very viable

[sharp condor]

not in lower ranks

[charred walrus]

unless ur like 6pps against my 2

[onyx reef]

for an x rank

[chilly robin]

we know that the 7 total pieces are chosen uniformly from the set of the 7 normal tetrio pieces, so if you an arbitrary 3 pieces to give to bag 1, they cannot possibly be given to bags 2 through 4

[tight harbor]

it's still viable

[rare sequoia]

yeah

[charred walrus]

which… come to think of it i probably have played people who can 6pps quad

[sharp condor]

agree

[tired flame]

Still viable at low U 23k rn

[sharp condor]

hiryu smile face

[atomic gorge]

speed remains overpowered but i’m not sure how that relates to opener changes

[charred walrus]

i think i queued master101 once?

[atomic gorge]

speed is op at all stages of the game

[rare sequoia]

what if the game just goes into sprint simulator meta

[onyx reef]

6-3 isnt really midgame speed though

[charred walrus]

also queued microblizz today lol

[sharp condor]

i doubt it will be like that

[onyx reef]

its a very specific pattern

[sharp condor]

bags revert to normal after 5 bags worht of pieces

[tight harbor]

I would quit

[atomic gorge]

yeah depending on how you do it sure

[sharp condor]

me too

[charred walrus]

it wont. quad spam has no spike power lmao

[atomic gorge]

but you can’t really do a specific pattern as easily on changed bag anyway

[sharp condor]

it defintiely does at lower ranks

[atomic gorge]

at the very least no yuimetaling

[onyx reef]

yeah no yuimetal

[rare sequoia]

i feel like nerfs are just a better way to deal with this overall, keep in the fun variety of openers and remove their oppressive domination

[charred walrus]

well thats a lack of ds power

[sharp condor]

a few months ago i 1v1'd a few mid U ranks doing 0 tspin challenge

and i beat all of them pretty easily

[onyx reef]

people will have to learn how to actually 603

which is

tbf

[limpid zealot]

I think the fundamental question cab and anber are getting to is how much actual decisionmaking goes into 6-3 with the bag changes.

[charred walrus]

did you pc

[onyx reef]

harder than openers

[sharp condor]

which most not X ranks lack

no i didni't pc

no opener no tsd

just quads only entire game

[atomic gorge]

i mean obviously you are way better than them LOL

[charred walrus]

skull

[daring moss]

7+X-Bag rotation should only be applied to countries that are not the USA because america deserves the best and none of the rest 🔥🔥

[onyx reef]

its the same after you get past like the 1st 2 bags

[sharp condor]

not like i was a lot faster

[long palm]

[atomic gorge]

i would clap most t200s playing no tspin

but that doesnt really mean anything

[sharp condor]

doesn't it

[severe spindle]

[tidal magnet]

wait so wdym by the "original bag (n)"

do u mean bag (n) of queue or

[opal hamlet]

Aren't quad garbage clean?

[limpid zealot]

I'm not taking a side, just trying to find and highlight the core difference of opinion. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[charred walrus]

if i had no tspins i would be the next musik

[tired flame]

I've seen mid u with 2.5 pps .5 app which is basically quad spam app so I dont see how quad spam couldnt beat them

[tight harbor]

spike

[sharp condor]

they survive the quad spam 👍

[tight harbor]

there are a lot more spiking opportunity with T spin

[onyx reef]

personally i think 6-3 is specfic enough you can learn it and not really progress that much in other aspects of the game and abuse it in this bag system to get to like s rank

question is

is that fun to play against

[brisk badger]

more so than openers

[onyx reef]

because thats all that really matters

[sharp condor]

probably better than opener

[onyx reef]

better than opener

[sharp condor]

i think this change may be good for lwoer ranks

[atomic gorge]

i agree with this but it’s definitely still an improvement over sdpc and stick

[tired flame]

than openers

[sharp condor]

but i think openers are cool in x rank and stuff

like i feel like openers add a lot more depth for higher ranks

[boreal drift]

This thread has now reached 2.5k messages

[tight harbor]

I find it fun to play against opener

even at low rank

[charred walrus]

i dont

[sharp condor]

you're 1pps x rank 😭

[onyx reef]

and thats the issue whats fun to play against generally depends on your rank and playstyle

[rare sequoia]

yeah they do, separate games like tec and ppt are good places for less op openers

oops no reply

[atomic echo]

Openers are not fun tho if you're a low rank

[onyx reef]

tec has an op opener

its called 6-3

[sharp condor]

what is bro replying to 😭

[onyx reef]

lol

[daring moss]

Maybe openers should be appreciated because they give the slow folk a chance to shine. We need to appreciate the people who are not the brightest and the elderly in this game

[rare sequoia]

was replying to this

[sharp condor]

ppt opener meta:

[charred walrus]

opener troll slow players

[rare sequoia]

its just tds

[sharp condor]

ah ya

[chilly robin]

@tidal magnet sidenote:

you know those puzzles that ask what the next number in a sequence is? such as find ? if the sequence is "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ?"?
you can define ? to be whatever you want lol

if {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ?} represent the corresponding f(x) values for the first six nonnegative integers plugged into f(x), defined below, then x = 12345

f(x) = (4113/40)x^5 - (12339/8)x^4 + (69921/8)x^3 - (185085/8)x^2 + (563501/20)x -12339

[sharp condor]

i was gonna say c4w lol

[sharp condor]

this is just silly

[limpid zealot]

Honestly, the thing that saddens me about this change that I haven't seen talked about is the loss of openers that aren't decentralizing. Just stuff to do for fun, or to transition smoothly to midgame.

[charred walrus]

intpoly

[chilly robin]

it's my favourite answer to people posting those puzzles

[rare sequoia]

i havent seen 4w much in ppt

[sharp condor]

no this is exactly what i mean

i don't opener because i want free wins

i do them cuz its fun

[honest oriole]

Learn to plonk

[sharp condor]

idk i like building reliable and doing tsd tsd tsd tsd tsd

[cyan forge]

can we remove bags completely

[sharp condor]

and i learned a lot of continuations with it

[severe spindle]

Lmao

[honest oriole]

My LST in shambles

[cyan forge]

and replace them with shulker boxes

[sharp condor]

i'm not that good at freestyling so it's fun to learn an opener really well and learn how to b2b chain with it

[cyan forge]

they can hold much more than just 7 pieces

[rare sequoia]

exactly, people arent considering the pros of openers and only focusing on the cons and how to remove them entirely

[sharp condor]

fax

[charred walrus]

we should remove hard drop, 7bag, 0arr, and make pieces auto lock instantly

[rare sequoia]

theres a lot of cool research and fun to be had

[tired flame]

? i thought its agreed upon openers arent an issue unless low rank

[chilly robin]

so how do you nerf meta openers while preserving these openers?

[honest oriole]

27 piece bags?

[onyx reef]

meta openers arent the issue

[honest oriole]

[tight harbor]

openers aren't an issue at low rank

[daring moss]

We should have AI play for us and we can just bet money on which one will win. Theyre gonna replace us anyways so lets just do it now

[onyx reef]

how do you make openers not overpowered at lower rank

is the issue

[chilly robin]

zetris already exists

[honest oriole]

Yes they are

[limpid zealot]

I'm not sure. I don't have a simple solution in mind, otherwise I would have proposed it already. I'm just voicing my grievances to try and add to the discussion.

[atomic echo]

Adjusting garbage cap over time maybe

[severe spindle]

Yea

[chilly robin]

Makes sense, was just wondering if you happened to have anything

I agree with your point

[severe spindle]

But also thats just free b2b

[daring moss]

I know that. I’m talking about the fact we should have a gambling mode added to tetrio for bots. Like watching two chickens fight it out

[limpid zealot]

A reduction of sent garbage at the beginning of the game could be interesting, I've seen that thrown around.

[chilly robin]

not sure gambling would be a good thing to add to the game

tetrio becomes a gacha game 2024

[limpid zealot]

It has the potential to be really damaging for other reasons, though, and just wouldn't be that fun (would make the opener phase feel largely meaningless).

[onyx reef]

im saying that because at higher rank it would promote big b2b and therefore big garbage being thrown around

[cyan forge]

27 x 64 piece bags

[tired flame]

TST and PCs set to half garbage for the first 5 bag probably solves this opener issue?

[daring moss]

my ideas get crazier and crazier 😭

[tight harbor]

opener mains will get to higher rank anyway

[cyan forge]

1728 bags

[onyx reef]

speed up the pace of the game

[chilly robin]

doesn't solve stickspin

[onyx reef]

the game is simply slow rn in the opener because theres nothing on the board

[atomic echo]

Sending garbage now has a 50/50 chance of not sending

[chilly robin]

you still get a good attack out of it

[tired flame]

when c-spin happens i forget

4th bag?

[limpid zealot]

a truly sisyphean solution LOL

[sharp condor]

i like this idea infinitely more than fucking with bags

[onyx reef]

for lower ranks it wouldnt matter because people arent building 10 b2b chains there

[limpid zealot]

imagine being softlocked against an opponent at row 19 bc you literally cannot send them garbage

[tight harbor]

getting obilerated by haha funny at the beginning is part of the fun of playing game

[onyx reef]

LOL

[sterile pagoda]

i will no longer get opener mained 🥳

[atomic gorge]

LMAOOOO

[charred walrus]

“ATTACKING YOURSELF!”
“Opener Detected”

[spare sun]

guys can we implement classic tetris to tetra league i think it would be really fun

[sharp condor]

yea just ban openers like jstris beginner room with 4w lmao

[chilly robin]

the garbage you sent gets scaled between 0% and 200%, chosen from a normal distribution and rounded to the nearest integer

[cyan forge]

frick

[winged tartan]

noep

[cyan forge]

ok

[winged tartan]

i kinda forgot polls existed

[molten pecan]

this is lit

[sharp condor]

yea is there any thoughts on increasing garbage cap

[tidal magnet]

pc openers will still be op lmaoooooo

[cyan forge]

sending garbage now has a 0/100 change of sending

[sharp condor]

like maybe start at smth lower and go up to 8

[daring moss]

Remove srs and tspins they ruin the game. Let’s go back to the stone Age NES days

[tidal magnet]

except if it's cheese

[onyx reef]

you cant die in the start

borin

[chilly robin]

start the board with 5 lines of clean

[tight harbor]

sending lines have chance to deal critical damage

[winged tartan]

well NES would be literally no garbage lol

[tired flame]

I do think quickplay garbage mechanics might fix openers if tweaked

[sharp condor]

idk theres a lot of possiblities

[tight harbor]

sending 2x the lines

[charred walrus]

Fr i would spike myself to counterspike

[honest oriole]

Just immediately force topout if you pc more than 3 times

[sharp condor]

like increase delay by a little bit at the start

[tidal magnet]

nah 5 lines of cheese is better

[sharp condor]

and after 5 bags make it normal

[onyx reef]

what about uh

[cyan forge]

wait garbage cap is a good idea

[onyx reef]

like

[limpid zealot]

Glad to see the entire community universally agrees that the 50/50 of garbage sending is the path forward. Issue solved. Put it in TL posthaste.

[charred walrus]

what about

[sharp condor]

i still like garbage cap idea

actually idk

i guess it doesn't help lower ranks that much lol

[charred walrus]

you start with 100 lines of cheese

[sharp condor]

probelm is still the raw amount of apm

[onyx reef]

yeah they still die of death lol

[fossil charm]

0.1% chance of a 10x tho

and it plays funny sound effect

[onyx reef]

its the ease and raw amount

[limpid zealot]

TRUE, spice things up

[daring moss]

Instead of sending garbage to the other person it’ll be like tetris blitz and you will have powerups

[onyx reef]

new idea

[tight harbor]

true

[charred walrus]

and the person who downstacks it all in the least amount of blocks wins

[onyx reef]

new idea

[tired flame]

gacha players love this

[chilly robin]

i support this

[tired flame]

will even pay tbux

[onyx reef]

10% chance to start with stickspin piece

[limpid zealot]

can't forget the huge flashwave that ignores all graphical settings

[winged tartan]

sponsored by red bull

(real tetris game by the way)

[honest oriole]

Me after rolling 1/1000 on my pco and sending 100 lines

[sharp condor]

quad pc

[chilly robin]

for every tier of supporter you have, the chance goes up 10%

[chilly robin]

1400 lines real

[onyx reef]

exactly

[honest oriole]

Wait also .2% chance to send yourself garbage

[sharp condor]

1400

[fossil charm]

I know, when you start a round you pull a new board (both the starting pieced and a starting field) and they have star ratings

[chilly robin]

just replace both boards with colorful slot machines

and just compare scoress

[chilly robin]

is this permanent?????

[onyx reef]

time to donate a few thousand

[fossil charm]

Yes.

It has already been made

[chilly robin]

omg osk i love you thank you so much

[charred walrus]

when can we expect the new update?

[cyan forge]

possible ideas:

• 7+x
• garbage cap
• reducing garbage itself
• removing tetra league altogether

[fossil charm]

It will go live tomorrow at 3:15am

[honest oriole]

After 100 lines sent backfire .5x gets turned on

[limpid zealot]

Ooh, and the more supporter you buy the more chances you get for a board you like! This seems really monetizable!

[tidal magnet]

remove tetra league 👍

[honest oriole]

Huge supporters get 12 wide boards and only I pieces

[onyx reef]

remove tetra league forever end the addiction of thousands

[sharp condor]

if the problem is for lower ranks then garbage cap doesn't solve anything

[chilly robin]

refinancing my mortgage rn

[daring moss]

If you post your ID and SSN to tetrio you can get a free month trial of supporter (and osk will never use it to open credit cards in your name)

[limpid zealot]

anatomical heart is a really funny reaction emoji im stealing that lmao

[charred walrus]

we’ve been talking about 7+x for a while now but has anyone thought of 7-x?

[chilly robin]

why not 7±x?

[atomic echo]

Ok listen what if we make openers a feature AND have a character system so you have like sdpc character, pc character, etc that start with a field and boom noobs don't have to deal w openers and openers stay alive (sarcasm dont actually do this)

[onyx reef]

7+-x to the sqrt of pi

[boreal drift]

https://discord.com/channels/673303546107658242/1083587747496869958

[cyan forge]

wait 7-x

[boreal drift]

[cyan forge]

is lowkey terrible

[daring moss]

what 😭

[sharp condor]

why

[honest oriole]

7+i bags when

[winged tartan]

"automatic excadrill"

[boreal drift]

I don't like bringing up that thread

Lol

[sharp condor]

7-3 then 7-2 would suck

[chilly robin]

imagine

[charred walrus]

7+-sqrt(x^2-4yz)

[fossil charm]

7+0.83bag

[chilly robin]

osk just invent an 8th piece problem solved

[tidal magnet]

if we are doing 7+x bag can we at least have 10 next pieces 🥺

[winged tartan]

[chilly robin]

just make 8-bag the standard for TL

[charred walrus]

WAIT how about

[honest oriole]

You have regular board and your secret invisible imaginary board that’s 5 tall and you can win by topping opponent out on either board

[charred walrus]

we replace the first bag I with a trimino i

[chilly robin]

how about you just get your pieces chopped into 3rds for the first minute

[cyan forge]

9 + sqrt(e^3.8π)+In(2π)

[sharp condor]

You start with 1 preview and gain a preview per bag

[charred walrus]

it stops all pc openers

[honest oriole]

Like fusion in ppt but even worse

[limpid zealot]

The amount of extra pieces should actually increase every round until you're just stuck in an endless sequence of one piece. Is it an I piece? Great! Is it an S or Z? eggs, go next

[sharp condor]

That way it doesn’t fuck with gameplay

And it kills openers

[tight harbor]

it would just become stalling so you get more leeway for bursting

[cyan forge]

another idea: place a singular garbage piece to begin with on a random

[sharp condor]

Especially in lower ranks

[cyan forge]

space

[chilly robin]

osk please osk please osk please

[cyan forge]

first 2 rows

[honest oriole]

YOOOO

[winged tartan]

what if it works like Gran Turismo Rolling Start races and a bot auto places like 12 pieces as if it were just 9-0 stacking before you're allowed to take control

[fossil charm]

10.5wide board, bag contains some 3.5-mino pieces

[limpid zealot]

Wait, changing preview vision is actually a super interesting idea. I kind of love this concept with some tuning.

[fossil charm]

there, game fixed

[charred walrus]

you have to let dellacherie play for 20 pieces

[sharp condor]

I think it’s a genuinely good idea that I wouldn’t hate

[honest oriole]

Love how this has just devolved into bad suggestions

[chilly robin]

is this possible to add in custom rooms and whatnot

[sharp condor]

Like i think it kills stickspin and whatever in lower ranks

[ruby comet]

open source the game so we can make it happen

[chilly robin]

it's literally good???

[sharp condor]

Higher ranks it would still be rly difficult

[chilly robin]

good suggestions*

[tidal magnet]

he will never open source

[daring moss]

Make clash royale evolutions. Choose a piece and they’ll be evolved to have an ability.
For example, the 5th time you play an O piece it’ll break structural integrity and make all itself and all tetriminos below it break structure and fall to the ground

[winged tartan]

vudei game fixed

[ruby comet]

[onyx reef]

ok guys to ruin the meta for everyone if 7-x becomes permanent im making a gabo-esque video on how to build c4w with 7-x bag and why youll get x rank with it

[charred walrus]

no i think ppl just go for the 67% win chance 💀

[honest oriole]

Where’s the 5d tetrio from lol

Who made it

[winged tartan]

zyrixia made it

[sharp condor]

hmm

Yea stickspin is too easy to build Rigjt

[tight harbor]

it is just bad suggestion from the beginning

[sharp condor]

idk surely their 3rd bag gets fucked or smth

[charred walrus]

sdpcspin is 100% after bag1

[honest oriole]

Add upgradable pieces and you can build your bags

[sharp condor]

Damn

[charred walrus]

if u do the stupid so placement

[chilly robin]

suggestion: for the duration of 7+x in tl, auto-dm every player who lost a tl match https://jstris.jezevec10.com/

[limpid zealot]

The shortened piece queue idea preserves the 7-bag system for good stacking while preventing openers inherently because you don't know what dependencies you'll be able to meet. The only problems I can think of are speed reduction (which is... not even necessarily a bad thing?) and lucking into usually-buildable openers by chance. @fossil charm any thoughts on this?

[honest oriole]

Upgrade t pieces to need one corner for a tspin

[rigid zenith]

are we getting a bit off tracked?

[atomic echo]

Just have a character system and one of the characters is "Anti-Opener" where you take and deal 50% less attack for 1 minute

[sharp condor]

At least less previews would slow players down a lot

[limpid zealot]

[honest oriole]

We’ve passed a bit a long time ago

[sharp condor]

Wait til the opponent loops for a minute and doesn’t stop 😭

[tidal magnet]

nah 15s

[daring moss]

If you lose 3 games in a row you get put into a queue where 7+X-bag doesn’t apply

[chilly robin]

this'll happen a lot lol

[charred walrus]

yes, we stopped talking about 7+X and started talking about X+7

[chilly robin]

x+7 is mathematically equivalent to 7+x

let's call it that

[daring moss]

gameplay wise too lol if u think about it

[onyx reef]

A WAY TO FIX SPEED PLEASE AND THANK YOU I LOVE YOU ALL

[tight harbor]

7+X for lower rank only

[tidal magnet]

ss and below 7+x

[charred walrus]

7-X and if ur X its just 7

cuz u add the X

[sharp condor]

I think speed reduction at the start is healthy

[onyx reef]

the days of having westl nightmares are finally over

[sharp condor]

It’s nothing janky like enforced handling

[onyx reef]

finally

i can rest

[chilly robin]

you get 7+x for a future game every time you use sdpc/stick

[tight harbor]

good

[tidal magnet]

genius

[limpid zealot]

Yeah, it makes it a bit more of an even playing field, allowing both players to get set up and then unleash their full speed potential with the queue restored.

[chilly robin]

so with 7+x bag, as an x rank do we get two bags distributed among the first 4 bags or

[long palm]

how many reasonable 7 bag openers are there again

[chilly robin]

a lot, actually

[honest oriole]

Garbage send delay for first 10 seconds + passthrough for first attack

[charred walrus]

nah this is the real reason i suggested 7-X instead of 7+X

[onyx reef]

7-X+X

[fossil charm]

honestly its 6am for me so i can't rly form an opinion on it nor am I a game designer
tho i feel this could be very flow-breaking
(also a worry of people hacking that out but yk)

[onyx reef]

^X

[sharp condor]

7 - X + X = 7 😁

[sharp condor]

I think you should consider it when you wake up

[long palm]

i need sleep

[honest oriole]

7+x^2

[long palm]

its 11:57 PM

[honest oriole]

good night

[sharp condor]

7+x is way more flow breaking I think

[chilly robin]

yep

[sharp condor]

I’ve played both 7+x and fucked around with reducing previews

7+x actually kills my gameplay at the start

I just have no idea what to do

[daring moss]

Maybe make the maximum that is given garbage (the max is around 12 i believe) less so there is an easier chance to defend against a huge spike?

[long palm]

ill look into route count tomorrow

[tight harbor]

how would reduced preview affect lst?

[chilly robin]

fortissim route

[charred walrus]

I feel like if I already had some stack i could fit pieces

[sharp condor]

With reduced preview I still know what stacking I’m doing, it’s just needing to plan more carefully and having to react to the less previews more

[charred walrus]

But rn i just like troll and infskim in 7+x

[limpid zealot]

Mkay, don't want to force anything. Seemed to me like something which could be as minimally disruptive as possible (it's probably not any more so than 7 + X, at least) while solving a decent amount of problems. Something to consider, and maybe test.

You actually did remind me that I should get to sleep myself, though, so I'm gonna do that.

Hang in through the hate comments!

[chilly robin]

this especially

gn badgoblin

[sharp condor]

[long palm]

[fossil charm]

smth that I can at least write code for since its easy to implement

[atomic echo]

Was there any consensus on lowering 7+x to smth less disruptive like +2, +2, +1?

[sharp condor]

The issue persists

And you probably want it to sum to 7 for a full bag

[fossil charm]

its OK I'm used to it

[sharp condor]

well I guess you don’t have to but it feels complete that way lol

[fossil charm]

the real despair comes from within

[tight harbor]

I am not sure if I should be worried about it

[limpid zealot]

Well, the real hope can come from within, too, if you let it.

For every one person who hates you, there are a thousand who don't. You've gotta be doing SOMETHING right. Remember that.

[tired flame]

Just finished my first TL match with it.

my thoughts are its just feels random until 35 pieces are placed, and if someone managed to preserve a good b2b board by then and then go spike like normal

[bold citrus]

after an hour of playing, the new thing is wait for your attacks and counter, rinse and repeat, but I'm fine with that

[onyx reef]

real

i mostly just spam 6-3 and build b2b like i usually do with sdpc-spin

it works... somewhat

sometimes the bag just kills it and sometimes the opponent just gets lucky with c4w

[long palm]

im not gonna play tl during this time as my tr would drop as bad as the 2008s housing crisis, but i do visualize how painfully annoying and helpful 7+x is to people

[onyx reef]

ud be suprised

with everyone not able to do openers some people just

cant do anything

they are too used to the influx of clean

[charred walrus]

pretty sure even people with good midgame are like

toothless in opener

at least unless theyre megastriding 6-3 or something

[sharp condor]

I think most high X ranks I’ve played have a powerful opener

[tight harbor]

change

[sharp condor]

It’s pretty rare to see a top100 not 150apm in opener phase

[tired flame]

also T O T as my first 3 pieces is 💀

[sharp condor]

Tot

[charred walrus]

Waste t

[sharp condor]

Yea that must feel shit

[onyx reef]

my apm dropped 30 and my vs dropped 60 skull

[sharp condor]

Holding t = fucked parity

[onyx reef]

pps is the same though

[sharp condor]

Interesting

[onyx reef]

its cause im striding 6-3 which i already did

[sharp condor]

Yea how do you deal with double early T

Do you jsut waste them both lol

[onyx reef]

6-3

[tired flame]

also this is funny i rnged this

[onyx reef]

yeah

[sharp condor]

Yikes

[onyx reef]

i just make a box

my only goal now in the opener is to build to 8x b2b

[sharp condor]

Kinda insnae

If it was a different queue yoy could have gotten IIII

[charred walrus]

my goal went from counterspiking to not immediately trolling my stack

[onyx reef]

real

[tired flame]

that I in the stack was 4 pieces ago

[sharp condor]

Yea and this jsut seems so unfun to me

[plush palm]

or IV lol

[onyx reef]

well after awhile ppl will get used to it

and not have to worry about trolling

[sharp condor]

I don’t wanna just 6-3 lol

[tight harbor]

very unfun indeed

[sharp condor]

I hate 6-3

[onyx reef]

too bad smh

[sharp condor]

Tsd chaining must be like 100x more fun

[onyx reef]

now you got like 3 options

[sharp condor]

if I wanted to 6-3 then I would be doing it already

[tired flame]

but didnt you say you use reliable

or was that someone else

[sharp condor]

reliable is not 6-3

[onyx reef]

freestyle, 6-3, or c4w smh

[sharp condor]

reliable cna go into 6-3

So can like

[cosmic creek]

c4w can die

[sharp condor]

Dt cannon probably

[cosmic creek]

(yes i am a hater)

[onyx reef]

hey haya

[sharp condor]

Heya haya

[boreal drift]

We're now 100 messages away from 3k messages

[rotund cairn]

hello

this is going to take a lifetime to read this thread

btw why was this not announced in news with a @all or smth

seems pretty important

[long palm]

well

not everyone's in the discord

[winged tartan]

it's kinda something osk did on a whim

[rotund cairn]

just felt like it?

lol

[winged tartan]

[rotund cairn]

lol alright

[long palm]

if everyone in this discord was a ranked TL player, it would only account for ~75% of all ranked people

[rotund cairn]

btw for 7+x does it slowly turn back into 7 bag

its just kinda messed up in the opening phase right

[long palm]

yes

[rotund cairn]

alright

[long palm]

+3, +2, +1, +1, then 0 after

[rotund cairn]

aha alright makes alot more sense

[tough light]

the bag change dropped my apm from 50 to around 38 so I can say it's a good change

[rotund cairn]

lmao

rip openers

[long palm]

mine might get halved

[rotund cairn]

just got murked

[daring moss]

no affect on mine because i put my money on garbage rng

[rare sequoia]

did some testing, i think you can build DT semi reliably on most bags

[tight harbor]

dt into 4w

[rare sequoia]

following the basic outline of O on left and whatnot

[tight harbor]

[long palm]

most is not enough

we need 80% of the millions of possible bags

for "provability"

imo

80% build rate already is a low bar

[sharp condor]

i think 80% is high as fuck lol

stickspin is only 75% buildable

[rotund cairn]

btw whats stopping people from just making new openers for this bag system

[long palm]

oh

[hushed oxide]

this is good

[chilly robin]

huge number of permutations for 1st bag

[long palm]

millions of routes

[rotund cairn]

i mean its insanely rng

[hushed oxide]

for opener rate

[chilly robin]

16 million routes

[rotund cairn]

hm

well dt

as you guys said

[long palm]

whats the exact number again

[rotund cairn]

is still doable most of the time

[long palm]

dm me

[sharp condor]

idk what semi reliable means yet

[rotund cairn]

cant other openers also be yeah that

[sharp condor]

i dont think that means most of the time

[rotund cairn]

semi reliable

[sharp condor]

and also dt is extremely simple

[chilly robin]

bag one: (7 C 3) 10! / (2! 2! 2!) = 15876000
bag two: (4 C 2) 9! / (2! 2!) = 544320
bag three: (2 C 1) 8!/2! = 40320
bag four: 8!/2! = 20160

[sharp condor]

huh

[rotund cairn]

imagine opener mains find an even more powerful opener than stickbase somehow with this bag system

lmao

[sharp condor]

not convinced this is right

why is bag 4 8!/2!

shouldn't it be 7! * 7

[rotund cairn]

isnt the first bag 7 + 3 random ones

[daring moss]

A 2 line pc is possible so maybe something could be absolutely busted

[sharp condor]

take a standard bag and insert a fixed piece anywhere

[rotund cairn]

lmao

[sharp condor]

7 positions so it should be 7! * 7

[chilly robin]

you have 7 pieces + extra piece to arrange

[long palm]

yeah

[chilly robin]

extra piece can match with 1 out of the 7 existing pieces

[rotund cairn]

aha ive done this in school ill try XD

[chilly robin]

so divide by 2!

[sharp condor]

you're doing 7! * 8 / 2

it should be 7! * (8 - 1)

you don't divide by 2 for it being a duplicate

[long palm]

yeah

[sharp condor]

you just remove a possible position

[sharp condor]

that means all of these numbers are still too low

[long palm]

you do divide it in 2

[sharp condor]

huh

[long palm]

A1A2
A2A1

2 bags look same

[sharp condor]

extreme luck gaming

[long palm]

but have same exact meaning when it comes to pieces

[rare sequoia]

what i meant to say is that its relativbely simple/clean to build dt on most bags, but freestyling the shape is possible all the time as long as you know what youre doing

[sharp condor]

i don't get how this is relevant to 7+1

[sharp condor]

yea its all freestyle

the only possible "openers" will be heavily freestyled

buildability won't be high even so

[tight harbor]

pls remove freestyle from the game

[rotund cairn]

dont you choose a position first for the 3 extra pieces in the first bag then you can choose them from the 7 possible choices

[peak jasper]

Still possible to freestyle pc on first bag