Wild Animal Suffering

[zinc geyser]

yeah sure, showing me them won't make it as simple in convincing me as you may think it should, though. I don't assign final judgement on big issues in such short time, but instead I focus on aggregating on arguments one could find for either side first.

[young girder]

I mean that much is obvious

even genocide won't make you budge!

[zinc geyser]

yeah aging also ACTUALLY happens, did you know

[young girder]

Question

Are the staments you're making legal in your country?

[zinc geyser]

though I wonder why you're so emotionally attached, charged up about this; might be for personal reasons, which would make it more understandable.

[zinc geyser]

what do you mean by that?

legally relevant? In terms of freedom of exploring considerations on moral topics?

but I wonder what kind of ill mind or ulterior motives would make someone ask that.

[young girder]

Millions of people being murdered on racist pretenses doesn't fire you up?

[zinc geyser]

you seem unreasonably aggressive, uncooperative

[young girder]

Well. you kinda are arguing that the holocaust is not as bad as aging

You live in Germany

You might want to be careful saying things like that

[zinc geyser]

I am

swap out the humans affected with any other at same severity, and to an utilitarian it doesn't change, all else (like on the instrumental side) equal

there has to be a way for freedom of at least genuinely trying to investigate, explore these moral dilemmas, grave issues.

just because you personally disagree, not because of lack of at least plausible arguments that make the view not outright insane to hold, doesn't mean it must be insane or evil.

"says the hypocrite that doesn't care about octillions of animals to possibly suffer for space exploration"

a comparison between large scale problems of suffering isn't to easily be equated with a dismissal

[young girder]

Try this experiment.

Go outside in Munich and ask a bunch of people if they thing aging is worse than the holocaust. It would be interesting to see how many people agree or disagree with your conclusion

Film yourself so we can see the end result (you can blur your face and edit your voice if you like)

[young girder]

I mean you care more about them than conservation, the 20 billion+ animals suffering in factory farms... you know, real suffering that we know exists

[zinc geyser]

various psychological, social pressures would likely affect their judgement, especially in an environment where quick takes, judgement would be requested, and you should be aware of that; you probably didn't pick the place by chance but could also have picked other places.

It would be interesting to see how many people agree or disagree with your conclusion
again, it's a preliminary assessment, not final.

Not sure how adamant Bostrom would be on his take on the issue either.

But he probably would've gotten problems with that, too, by now, if it were extreme, or in a clear enough manner flawed.

[zinc geyser]

This is an octillion: 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000

this is 20 billion: 20.000.000.000

get real

[young girder]

Big Nomber

does pressing the buttons on the calculator give you a rise?

Question, I'm reading this Qualia research, do you know of any other organizations publishing research like this?

[zinc geyser]

So you dare thinking you're morally superior in understanding or anything? Good, then at least give it some time and try a test.

https://qst.darkfactor.org/

pick the 70 questions one, gl

for reference

[zinc geyser]

Though there is also: Prof. Gary David O'Brien's scientific paper ( https://philpapers.org/rec/OBRDPW-3 ) from 2021, titled "Directed Panspermia, Wild Animal Suffering, and the Ethics of World-Creation" and Oskari Sivula's scientific paper ( https://philpapers.org/rec/SIVTCS ) from 2022, titled "The Cosmic Significance of Directed Panspermia: Should Humanity Spread Life to Other Solar Systems?".

they independently are with me on the understanding of the severity, significance of the problem, and on the same side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNtmyWp9utg

Directed Panspermia, Wild Animal Suffering, and the Ethics of World‐Creation
Abstract:
Directed panspermia is the deliberate seeding of lifeless planets with microbes, in the hopes that, over evolutionary timescales, they will give rise to a complex self-sustaining biosphere on the target planet. Due to the immense distances and timescales involved, human beings are unlikely ever to see the fruits of their labours. Such missions must therefore be justified by appeal to values independent of human wellbeing. In this paper I investigate the values that a directed panspermia mission might promote. Paying special attention to the outcome in which sentient animals evolve, I argue that we have strong reasons to believe the value of a mission would be negative. Research on wild animal suffering has shown that there is a huge amount of suffering among wild animals on Earth. I argue that there are structural features of evolution by natural selection which explain the prevalence of suffering on Earth, and make it predictable that suffering would prevail on the target planet too. Finally, using insights from procreative ethics I argue on non-consequentialist grounds that creators have duties to their sentient creations which cannot be met in directed panspermia missions.

[young girder]

Interesting, keep posting research for me please

[zinc geyser]

But knowing you, your 1st move likely will be to try to dig up some dirt underneath them, too

to try to dismiss them that way.

[zinc geyser]

start reading it then rather

[winged grotto]

I've been reading this/watching just out of curiosity, HOWEVER.... surely this is the nature of debates, discussions, research. Not to blindly follow and agree and subscribe to a particular viewpoint.

[young girder]

Not necessarily, although you haven't really made a good case for why I shouldn't

[zinc geyser]

I find it more worthy of critique and far more questionable for someone to form quick conclusions on large-scale moral comparisons and be ignoring, dismissing any other considerations, arguments that may hold value if they were further explored in detail, than to risk being wrong, be open to and exploring what arguments for either side could exist.

[young girder]

https://tenor.com/view/big-lebowski-the-dude-your-opinion-gif-4476328

[zinc geyser]

Like... in the future, when people understand this comparison better, maybe you'd be viewed as someone as bad in your opinion as how you seem to see me in regard to this comparison between genocides vs deaths by aging...

[young girder]

I have a feeling that, that won't happen

[zinc geyser]

mhm, just not sure how that particularly related to the quote

[zinc geyser]

there shouldn't be any need for that in the first place

[zinc geyser]

also protip dont' call people emotional for disagreeing with you in an argument its a great way to get a huge shit stain on your ass

[young girder]

@zinc geyser I'm doing some more research into this by the way

Can you tell me more about EA's relation to "postmodernism"?

I noticed them talking about it but I don't really understand their take?

[zinc geyser]

no, not my thing

the EA forum and people are their own with own focus points, mostly AI...

and not quite that reasonable either...

(but I guess that's usually the case for large groups, communities in general)

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/

their forum if interested

[young girder]

Ah, OK. I'll search there then.

[zinc geyser]

btw, if one would attribute slow decay/loss of vision or hearing as part of aging, then that also leads to a lot of accidents...

and bone weakness

[young girder]

I can't wait to hear you lecture me on accessibility like as if I haven't been involved with blind issues for the last 10 years

[misty yew]

Yoh, long discussion.
But this discussion can never lead to a general conclusion

In the mountains in cape town there are baboon troops starving because a massive fire wiped their home range and the city is blocking access to the seaside.
I would argue that they need to be fed (en mass) at specific locations to control their movements.

But babboons in the countryside should NEVER be fed because it will cause them to lose their knowledge of indigenous food sources and possibly attract them towards cities.

[winged grotto]

I'd disagree to an extent because of habituation, because if the baboons stay in that certain area and if people feed them or the baboons see people getting the feed in the area, etc. it'll mean they're less inclined to fear people, and it'll easily end up in attacks or them going fter people to get their food.

[misty yew]

Well the issue here is that the city is way easier to forage in than the remaining mountainous regions. So there is a lot of human-baboon conflict since the humans are blocking access to the seaside food sources.

The feeding should not be done by humans. It should be an automated system, liked timed release

Up in the mountains away from the populated areas

They already have zero fear of humans despite being herded around by "baboon monitors" with paintball guns.

They will enter a house to get food at every opportunity.

[misty yew]

And if they see food at a picnic or being carried by a person, they will be interested and approach and try get the food (because they are hungry due to being forced into small suboptimal landscapes).

[winged grotto]

Sorry; been working, so todays the first day I've had time to stop and see thing; and while yes there is a truth to the fact that cities are easier for them to forage in.

What you're talking about with a automated system wouldn't work, because to refill it involves human intervention, and haviing it up in mountains would then be harder for humans to be able to refill the automated system.

this however is also going to be a problem, because by doing this; you're essentially going to break an animal of their natural instinct, why do you think that in zoo's and other places, the food is usually scattered around, hidden, etc. for enrichment, it keeps their natural instinct in place. Which is something you've said about ones in the countryside

And tbh in a group there is less likely to be fear of humans, and chances are this is also due to people actively giving them food which then furthers the issue of habituation.

[misty yew]

Is there anything we can do to alleviate their starvation then?
The reason there is conflict with people is because of food availability. I think it's too late to avoid having them associate humans with food source.
What needs to happen now is implementation of a system that keeps them from entering the suburbs.

Have hikers go hide some food in the mountain 👀 lol.

And I think the system has to be based on positive reinforcement. (I.e. come here for food). Because negative reinforcement just causes them to try harder and doesn't address the reasons for their need to forage in the suburbs.

[winged grotto]

I agree that there is a huge problem in relation to their starvation and how to mitigate it, but the methods outlined so far, there are going to be implications and problems relating to what they can cause, the impact further down the line.

Because, lets say this happens for... six months, a year or more and humans feed them, they're not going to be able to forage and look for food themselves properly, right.

The problem is that its not their fault that they're not able to find food where they are due to... fires, due to farm land, due to habitat fragmentation, it is a human based problem at the end of the day; and even then with hikers hiding food, if baboons see it.. again, they get used to it and will get far less fearful of humans and things will get worse.

The problem is that no matter what system is put in place, it will have a human involvement, it will lead to a FURTHER decrease in their fear of humans, etc. and could easily lead to further problems.

The problem with the use of a system that I could see is that its ALSO affecting a natural behavious of foraging, due to problems we have caused; which could also be an ethical problem, considering we're trying to break a wild animal of a specific nature.

its not a cut and dry situation.

[misty yew]

Revisiting this thread because it looks like they are about to mass cull all the baboons around cape town...

I still think a managed and moving feeding station in the national park could work to keep them out of the city and retain their ecosystem service... (fynbos seed redistribution and fertilization)

[winged grotto]

Afaik, its not gone further than the proposal stage at the moment

[misty yew]

Hopefully gets blocked, but it will need some kind of new proposal for how to manage them...

[winged grotto]

I'm with you on hoping it will get blocked; however the feeding station thing in itself... i see problems in

[misty yew]

I understand the issues with fedding wild animals. I just don't see how they can survive in this area without help. They are completely cut off from the seaside feeding areas by urban areas and the bins and houses have become their food source unintentionally (which causes conflict).
So we are currently feeding them unintentionally, in a way that causes a lot of conflict. Better to do it intentionally and eliminate conflict while enhancing their ecosystem interactions.